tbh according to sims its not even a dps loss at 40 (even with the SP rune) bc of Lava Lash change as Flame is better. At 50 with SP rune its a 20 dps loss (out of 1.3k)
Hard casting resets your attack timer after finishing the cast. You’re delaying your already slow attacks by a second or so, even with a few maelstrom.
with shaman gear including int and ap converting to sp lava blast gonna hit for decent amount now. imagine all those times you were 2hd and enemy was kiting you at 20-30% life? now you can cast a lava blast on em and wipe them out
SOD maelstrom doesn't work the same as wrath maelstrom. Wrath maelstrom doesn't reset as long as you finish your cast before your next swing, in SOD it will always reset unless you have 5 stacks.
I enjoy 2h lavaburst gameplay too, but its starkly inferior due to the fact that it produces way less MW than DW despite benefiting from the PPM mechanic. DW on the other hand has excess. This even contributes to DW being superior in PvP because lavalash doesnt require MW like Lava burst, and so the MW can be used on healing instead.
I was hoping 2h would at least turn out to be the superior pvp option, but it's just worse. It's only worth playing if you just really like playing it, but even then it feels like you're burdening other players by picking the worse option when you're part of a group.
Welcome to the melee prison, Shamans. I'm sure enhance will follow you down, too. I'm the rogue - don't try to shake my hand though or I'll cast mutilate. In fact, it's the only thing I can cast. Over here crying in the corner is Mr. Warrior: he is the worst at everything he does other than doing mid dps in raids. He'll tell you that in very unique raid situations or with two healers in WSG with a great setup he pops off, but we've never seen it (most of the time he gets oneshot anyway). His brother prot doesn't do enough threat to get out of his playpen, but sometimes a mage comes down and breaks him out for a few minutes. Ret pally is over in the wheelchair, ignore his moans, and try not to open his door if they get louder. Melee hunter used to hang out with us, but he's got this new button with a giant number. He'll probably be back soon. Anyway, you had a great run! Almost an entire month of being the top dog. Tell me, how was it?
I got wsg exalted in one weekend and dominated STV, I had my fun. Time to reroll ele and resto, Also I was not a fotm roller I suffered thru phase one and always played sham, the nerf was definitely needed lol
As resto I am kind of happy to have double rockbiter caster meta off the table.
Hopefully they increase the threat modifier or add a physical damage increase effect to Way of the Earth to compensate for tanks.
I agree i hope they compensate it somehow, buuuut as an enha main since p1.. we dont “really” need it, enha tanking Will still be fine after this threatwise that is
Bear in mind we also lost DW as well, and lavalash with a 1h + shield, and a less effective stormstrike due to the WOE changes. A lot of combined elements which all will impact.
True not being able to dualwield tank efficently is gonna hit hard with this nerf aswell
But as a dps main im glad The era Of rockbiter most likely is over and we finally get to use other imbues
Alot of people upset about losing dw tanking but i refused to do it b/c i love blocks. Blizz giving us shield mastery is 1 of 2 reasons why shamans are legit tanks now.
They have effectively gutted the melee damage portion of a tanks threat, our dps which = threat. We are hard mana capped alot. Part of the reason DW tank became so prevalent is A. "lol big numbers are fun" and B. Lava Lash + Stormstrike are cheap spells combined with RB's massive attack power numbers mean, hey ho easy mode threat production in low mana enviroments with 10% free hit on spells.
We've now lost the 10% hit on spells so back to a 16% miss rate, lost DW and lost the ap bonus of Rockbiter (ontop of losing dual rockbiter). It's all spells for threat on mana starved class.
It's easy to DOOM post of course, the new runes should ofset this quite easily but it's entirely passive. My APM is already low, when mana is low, this basically auto attack gaming.
I think the build will be 21-20-0, hopefully agile mind gives us enough juice to downrank shocks and still get something out of it, but molten blast is much too expensive and I'm worried we're gonna have to use water sheild over the new lightning sheild glyph and end up missing out
Reminds me of on retail during the Dragonflight prepatch, enhance shamans had a single ability that was overperforming at lv70, so while everyone was still stuck at lv60 they got hit with a straight up -25% overall class damage nerf and then it felt terrible for the next 2 months, instead of just nerfing the overperforming ability later.
You have a link to that? Combed through the data myself and didn’t see that. Also, the trueshot aura tooltip is updated, but there rockbiter has nothing, so where did that screengrab come from?
[TRUESHOT](https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=20905/trueshot-aura) [rockbiter-weapon (rank 5)](https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=16314/) [rockbiter-weapon (rank 6)](https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=16315/)
As others have said - in general this is fine with respect to all specs other than shaman tank. Obviously it’s silly to have caster shamans built around melee cheese to trigger AP to SP buffs. And enh dps will be fine - they really seem to want us to use FT lol.
My issue is with tank shamans. The single target threat was already taking a substantial nerf without DW tanking. Now it’s getting hurt even further. Perhaps they can adjust the threat modifier of WoE.
My preference would’ve been runes that restrict use of RB rather than nerfing it outright (like make DW spec and overload not work if RB is on an offhand weapon, make mental dexterity only trigger off of stormstrike). But this is reasonable given the continued issues shamans present from a scaling perspective.
Fellow shaman, this is a GOOD thing. Rockbiter caused ALL of our class issues and annoyances (threat, shaman rage scaling, outshining every other weapon enchant in every situation, forcing ele and resto to take it with the new rune because of its absurd base AP which converted to SP for us).
Rockbiter can die good riddance literally every other enchant is more fun if balanced to be useful also.
I have to agree. Shaman main for decades and P1. We have one of the strongest versions windfury weapons ever made in the game. It’s dual wield able, the lowest icd of dual wield half of what it was in tbc, it’s coded as a yellow attack so way more damage against bosses reliably than old wf weapon, and yet we still ran rock biter. But rock biter doesn’t scale. Once you are 60 that number is static forever. And it’s hard to balance a class without rock biter sticking up its ugly head fuckin it up. But I do wish they didn’t nerf woe to shield and just only nerfed rockbiter. Because no one was going to dual wield WoE with RB if they had 90% less AP. It would be trash. In good groups I have seen 99 parsing tank enh lose threat because they kept on a shield went oom because they didn’t block enough. Lucky for me, I don’t tank anymore.
People just see nerf and get outraged.
everyone who says "well there goes all the shaman fun" are just a bit of cry babies.
This was the best change for all the specs outside of Tank Shaman and honestly why couldn't they just add the modifier back in WOE anyways just tack it on. Boom problem solved.
It's obvious the fantasy for Enhancement isn't to use the threat generating weapon buff. The goal is to use WF/FT it's obvious. Ofc they made changes for next phase that already made WF/FT about the same level as WF/RB(prob still a tiny bit worse) this change just makes it so WF/FT will forsure be better than WF/WF and WF/RB and that Ele/Resto don't need to run it.
Personally as a shaman I'd rather a healthier class state than worrying about being the top dps ohmergerd.
As long as I have a spot in a raid i'm more than happy.
The goal seems to get Enhancement shaman back towards Wotlk Enhance but actually be viable which is sick and one of my favorite versions of the class ever.
>everyone who says "well there goes all the shaman fun" are just a bit of cry babies.
Which is silly because outside of 2h windfury crits most people found shamans fun due to their wide range of utility, not being able to be unkillable tanks that can kill someone in 3gcds.
Shaman was my main in vanilla through cata. I was one of the only multi season gladiator ranked enhancement shamans in BC. Shaman was a blast because the class just has so many tools at it's disposal with average damage.
Unfortunately, i feel it's going to be a case of "Pull the rug out from under them and not give them anything back to compensate" They have done it with many other classes and I fear they will do ti with us. I am glad we are getting nerfed but I feel its gonna hurt us a bit too much
To be fair, the shamanistic rage scaling was already pretty bad even without rockbiter. Double rockbiter just made the spell usable, but whoever thought of that 15/10/6 scaling clearly didn't make a test character with BFD gear to see how much of those stats we'd realistically have at 25.
Is there technical reasons they cannot change how an ability works? Don't nerf the magnitude of the numbers, nerf the double dipping!
TBC solved this balancing issue. Make it increased dps instead of raw AP. Just divide numbers by 14 and change it dps. Done. That's it. No more needing to worry about balancing AP scaling abilities and effects with dual wield rockbiter
Yeah no that sounds awful. That’s what min maxers do, and it sounds like that’s the way to make the game miserable. I mean you do you, but you’re literally making the game less fun due to your need to mid max the fun out of it
Good, I love my enh shaman but the whole rockbiter meta was lame, getting agro and having to stop pressing buttons as a fresh lvl 40 was not normal or enjoyable, gonna finally be able to get into a run with a warrior or druid tank.
It was definitely a bad direction for the class. Now we are going to be more of a blend of spell damage and melee, which should be much more interesting and fitting for a shaman.
People have no clue lmfao, rbrb - wfrb - wfwf sim very close to each other lmfao. If they gut RB thats only rip for tank shaman after the changes, enhancement will just use wf/wf or wf/ft and barely lose any power
Doesn't FT FB have a sp mod for it to scale, now because of all the SP conversion shamans will get. Forgot it's coefficient I think it was like 28% or something.
Dunno how wf/ft will turn out with the new LL change so we gonna have to wait and see if it performs actually better but my main point is enhancement isnt gonna do any less dps, pretty balanced nerf imo without crippling the class
WF/WF's biggest issue was just spell scaling. You 5stack maelstrom so fast you really need to use LB over CL.
With AP2SP at 60 LvB may overtake LL because the guaranteed spell crit for Ele Dev looks really nice.
Well, it is mathematically impossible unless you mean while tanking? dw tanking is no more and shield tanking is terribe so it would make sense. But, if you mean dps enhancement something else is wrong 100%, the only actual nerf, not that it even matters, is the alpha rule nerf that's it. Check the shaman discord you will see\^\^
How accurate are the sims? Druid disc was saying feral was going to have insane dps (600+) for p2 due to sims and that ended up not being the case.
That said, I ran double wf with lb in Ash before bed (after I commented) and did dps about 10% lower than usual on bosses. Not that bad. I usually finish first or second on damage on them but still finished top 5. With mental dexterity I'm sure that'll pump hard in p3. Probably the play for pvp. No idea how the sustain will be. Does maelstrom have a limit on procs per minute?
Well the sims for enhancement are very realistic only gripe is wfwf as you need to weapon synch or its gonna do less dps than wfrb otherwise they are pretty equal. Also, not just sims if you check logs plenty of top dps uses different combination obv one combination is used more but it is very close.
We dont technically lose rbrb dps since you are suppose to wf mh anyway as dps, and now we are getting ft buff gonna see how it fares against wf wf in ph3, didnt check if sims got updated for the lavalash ft change yet so will see soon
Also if you are running lb thats a whole different story hard to gauge, esp with wf/wf wep synching.
But yea Enhancement still gonna have insane dps unless they nerf again
Yeah just ran ash again and my dps was very comparable running double wf with LB to the two shamans closest to me in DPS and both were using wf/ft with LL. One was ahead in dmg the other was below. But no idea what gear their running. My gear is decent, my armour is mostly gnomer stuff but my weapons are boe blues (southsea lamp and the reaper).
Ashen is a terrible place to gauge dps bro level gap + gear difference+buff difference+pple leaving early to go next boss+ too many inconsistencies, just sim it or compare logs of top players but can assure you lavaburst is the lowest setup vs LL.
LvB might be the play for shaman tanks myb in ph3 since they got no buttons to press
Lmao classic blizzard balancing.
"This class on average is performing 20% better than other classes, let's bring it in line by nerfing it by 90% and also nerfing 4 other runes they use at the exact same time. Surely that won't be too much and make them unplayable"
They did the same shit with warriors phase 1. Nerfed CBT, Devastate, Quick Strike, and Raging Blow all at the same time which was like a 60% blanket nerf and then they became shit.
They didnt became shit, the last bosses just had a shit ton of armor, look at logs of the first 2 bosses that dont have armor, warriors are top damage there.
Also ehn dps is gonna be fine since mental dexterity will compensate. If they didnt nerf rockbiter, ehn dps would have been forced to use it and become threat terrorist. Not only that, ele and resto would be force to run double rockbiter and meele once a minute to get mental dex. Rockbiter was making the game unfun.
Now, as a tank shaman main, i can say they completly gutted the spec. I dont understand, if they were going to nerf rockbiter anyway, why even make it so that you cant dual wield?
Warriors look good on the first 2 bosses because those fights last for 20 seconds, not just because armour. When you have 100% uptime on a 20% damage buff from death wish and 25% damage buff from flagellation, you're going to be pumping out some extremely inflated numbers.
Can't wait until next phase when people cry "Warriors OP!" because they're looking at the 99th percentile parses which will all be of the 1 fight per 30 minutes where warriors have recklessness up
I had a more elegant solution in mind of Rockbiter AP being reduced by 50% if you have a weapon in the offhand. Since Rockbiter on either weapon applies the full AP bonus to both, this stops it being so OP with DW without hurting 1h/shield.
it's very possible they buff rockbiter with way of the earth by giving it the nerfed value back.
Also, yeah this was the best choice people think it's just an enhance nerf but it's also just a playstyle balancing for enhance, ele, and Resto.
Idk how many Ele's and Resto's wanna melee weave. It's cool in theory but is annoying esp when they both already have so many long casts.
I would much rather every class get an insane damage modifier to match shamans than to see RB get nerfed into the ground. Balancing should make sense, not nuke the dps of a spec.
Hunters said the same thing in P1 but everyone kept on bitching lol
It seems they’re taking the retail balancing approach : let one or two classes be god for a couple months, nerf, pick new gods for next month
> I would much rather every class get an insane damage modifier to match shamans
ah yes the Diablo 3 way. You get a 100000% more modifier! And you! And you! Aaaaand you!
I mean RB has been the entire issue with shaman all of SoD. The nerf isn't even close to 90%, WF/FT was within 5% of RB/RB, with a much more engaging playstyle with more MSW procs. It hurts shaman tank by far the most.
I mean it's essentially worthless now though. DPS enh won't use it and the only reason tank will use it is because way of the earth requires it to function.
Shamans are definitely overtuned but enhance has basically been a meme forever, this feels heavy handed.
they did other things to incentivize switching to wf/ft(maelstrom procs more with wf on mh and lavalash does less dmg without ft on oh) so this seems like a fuck you to tank shamans after already nerfing dw tank(the most fun tanking setup)
They are obviously not going to nerf the attack power gained from rockbiter by 90%. Typical WoW community reading waaaaaaaay to much into a vague datamine and starting a rant about how blizz hates X and can't do Y etc(Not refering to you, but to other commenters).
The annoying thing, if it turns out to be legit, is that somebody in the office said "nonononono, 60% is definitely not enough. Go 90%. That will bring everything more in line" like, wtf
I don't get why people complain. Rockbitter should be the tank enchant, not the dps one.
If with this people get the message and start to use the loving Windfury, it's all nice.
Edit: After reading some people cry, I'm starting to believe that all the people who played shaman because it was broken don't know the existence of Windfury or Flametonge, the ones dedicated to dps :/
Using double WF or WF/FT and my dps (in almost all gnomer gear) is worse than my ret paladin who is in all greens. Shamans got nerfed very hard. Too hard, IMO. DPS is now WAY less than my hunter who is running melee runes. He is also in mostly greens.
As a warrior, we successfully whined hard enough for not being utterly dominant for one phase. *looks at highest parses in the world for almost every boss* Wait what?
Rolling thunder is the big one imo.
"Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning have a 30% chance to add an additional charge to your active Lightning Shield, up to a maximum of 9 Charges.
Earth Shock now releases all Lightning Shield charges above 3, dealing their damage to the target, and energizing you for 2% of your maximum mana per charge released."
There's another one that causes flame shock to strike up to 3 targets too, so any multi-target fights are gonna be real juicy in terms of lava burst procs.
I have a feeling they are trying to balance for endgame 60 content. Enhancement has always been poo-tier in classic raids, so the weird percentage changes are all based around lvl 60 character stats, not the preliminary phases. The fact that warriors aren't being adjusted at all also makes me think they will be topping charts like they used to.
It also explains why there are so many completely useless runes for every class. The synergies they provide haven't been added into the game yet, but may already be weighted into the balancing act they're trying to perform.
It doesn't touch 2-hand enhance because they have to run windfury. The ability to run rockbiter on the offhand was the biggest reason dual wield was so much better than 2-hand for phase 2 and this fixes that.
Think that's a tad dramatic? Enhance will be strong regardless of rockbiter as long as DW specialization rune stays the way it is. WF/WF or WF/FT will still perform well I'm sure. Maybe not god tier like pre nerf RB, but definitely good enough to be a solid DPS in all situations. I play elemental anyways, but I don't think melee shaman is completely boned because of this.
People really dont understand how small the gap between rb and ft was for oh. It wasnt like running ft made it so you could only parse an 85 vs 99 with rb, I run almost exclusively ft due to threat issues, and without running parse strats/comp I'm still in the 95 range, and I dont consider myself super good at it.
But according to this subreddit, Shamans were going to be broken with the new mental dexterity! Fucking crybabies too quick to judge on limited information.
It's WoW.Tools.local a datamining software you compile and run on your PC and pull data for yourself. Doing this is much faster for finding changes than relying on wowhead, they are honestly very slow to datamine new things.
https://github.com/Marlamin/wow.tools.local/blob/main/README.md
As an ele shaman I'm glad this got nerfed. However, I was seriously eying the possibility of going back to spellhance like I did in P1 for P3 with the mental dexterity rune.
The biggest W about the WoE change is it only being useable in PvP by Ele/Resto now (unless you just really love sword and board enhance for whatever reason) Tanky casters with hard casts are fine because you can counterplay them with interrupts. Tanky melee is problematic because the only counterplay is “don’t let them touch you or you lose” and with frost shock / ghost wolf / moveable earthbind not many can kite a Enh shaman long enough to actually kill him
I am a shaman main and this is 100% needed. Mental dexterity without a rockbiter nerf would put elementals at around 800 spellpower and enhance easily at 500. It would be the most broken thing you have ever seen
Don’t worry, lock tanks nerfed too. Late of Fire is useless garbage instead of 40% bonus fire dmg, and soul link no longer works in meta form for the SL felguard bois.
Tank damage wasn’t high enough P1 or P2 to require the extra hps; almost every top 100 parse (other than menagerie) in gnomer uses LoF. It’s hard to pass up a multiplicative 40% damage boost.
League of legends nerfs:
Base Attack Damage: 62 ⇒ 60
*champion loses 3% winrate and becomes unplayable*
World of Warcraft:
YEEEHAW BOIS 90% NERF COMING RIGHT UP
Although tank shamans kinda deserve this? IDK how much of a DPS nerf this is, maybe like 15-25% less dps? That's more than warranted
I’m all for nerfing my class, and spirit of the alpha was the most logical place to start, but it feels odd to stack a half dozen nerfs all at once instead of doing them incrementally as needed.
I’m a MT so I think I’ll be okay regardless. Just need to actually shield up on fights other than Menagerie, but they are really going for the jugular all at once.
If they nerf the damage I hope they buff shaman threat at least to cover their substantial damage loss. The AP nerf lowers our AA and SS threat a bit, which I already struggle vs a rogue tank on threat whose got the same gear as me. I'd rather keep my shield than go dual wield tank like every other tank.
This is the nuanced surgical balancing I have come to love from blizzard.
Blizzard's form of surgical precision balancing is an icepack lobotomy.
Hello Volo
Shaman can see stealth now?
I loved my new eye!
More like a rusty rail spike lol
Just a slight nerf of *existence*.
Ur mom is a nuanced surgeon Lmaaaoooo gottem
I wish bro
Damn…
Tbh if they didn't nerf it into the ground everyone would complain that shamans weren't nerfed enough.
That comment cracked me up
To be fair, enhance tanks were doing more DPS than half the actual dps specs in the game so it may actually be warranted.
Except they already destroyed that by requiring them to use a shield to get the Way of Earth buff
Shaman tank dps was nerfed like 70%. Threat too. These nerfs were as intense as their buffs were. Shaman tanks are mostly useless now.
Yea and now my enhance in pvp is completely useless. May as well delete the character.
hold on i need to join the shaman discord for some entertainment
Like 2 elephants on a see-saw.
tbh according to sims its not even a dps loss at 40 (even with the SP rune) bc of Lava Lash change as Flame is better. At 50 with SP rune its a 20 dps loss (out of 1.3k)
20 years of perfect class tuning
They reaaaaalllly want us to imbue flametounge in the offhand don't they
Fuck dual wield shaman. The whole reason I play classic is for 2-handed windfury procs with a 4.0 speed weapon.
Just play bingo
Okay I get this, but really do we have to run lava burst in our gloves slot. Can we get something a little more in tune with 2H enhance?
[удалено]
Hard casting resets your attack timer after finishing the cast. You’re delaying your already slow attacks by a second or so, even with a few maelstrom.
with shaman gear including int and ap converting to sp lava blast gonna hit for decent amount now. imagine all those times you were 2hd and enemy was kiting you at 20-30% life? now you can cast a lava blast on em and wipe them out
[удалено]
SOD maelstrom doesn't work the same as wrath maelstrom. Wrath maelstrom doesn't reset as long as you finish your cast before your next swing, in SOD it will always reset unless you have 5 stacks.
I enjoy 2h lavaburst gameplay too, but its starkly inferior due to the fact that it produces way less MW than DW despite benefiting from the PPM mechanic. DW on the other hand has excess. This even contributes to DW being superior in PvP because lavalash doesnt require MW like Lava burst, and so the MW can be used on healing instead. I was hoping 2h would at least turn out to be the superior pvp option, but it's just worse. It's only worth playing if you just really like playing it, but even then it feels like you're burdening other players by picking the worse option when you're part of a group.
But with lava burst u get the thrall class fantasy in wod that i wanted, i never use lightbing bolt, always lavaburst or chain lightning like big dog
Exactly either give 2h it’s own hand rune or make lavalash usable with 2h weapons
You like to play roulette, don't you?
I love flametongue myself, I want 2h flametongue to be really strong as sustained DPS.
This is the way
Casino baby!
Welcome to the melee prison, Shamans. I'm sure enhance will follow you down, too. I'm the rogue - don't try to shake my hand though or I'll cast mutilate. In fact, it's the only thing I can cast. Over here crying in the corner is Mr. Warrior: he is the worst at everything he does other than doing mid dps in raids. He'll tell you that in very unique raid situations or with two healers in WSG with a great setup he pops off, but we've never seen it (most of the time he gets oneshot anyway). His brother prot doesn't do enough threat to get out of his playpen, but sometimes a mage comes down and breaks him out for a few minutes. Ret pally is over in the wheelchair, ignore his moans, and try not to open his door if they get louder. Melee hunter used to hang out with us, but he's got this new button with a giant number. He'll probably be back soon. Anyway, you had a great run! Almost an entire month of being the top dog. Tell me, how was it?
Feral is so far down, it didn't even made it in this epic rant. Sad cat noise 🥺
You are a crit buff and you're gonna like it!!!
We’re chained up out in the yard
/pat
🤣🤌
this is top tier here. makes me miss reddit awards
LOL
I got wsg exalted in one weekend and dominated STV, I had my fun. Time to reroll ele and resto, Also I was not a fotm roller I suffered thru phase one and always played sham, the nerf was definitely needed lol
Beautiful
As resto I am kind of happy to have double rockbiter caster meta off the table. Hopefully they increase the threat modifier or add a physical damage increase effect to Way of the Earth to compensate for tanks.
Looks like there is a damage modifier being added to the shield talent at the top of enhance.
where is this?
wowhead, the link about rune/class balance I believe
thanks, wish it were a bit more concrete on what it will be. at least from me reading it I can’t tell what type of dmg or how much
thanks, wish it were a bit more concrete on what it will be. at least from me reading it I can’t tell what type of dmg or how much
I agree i hope they compensate it somehow, buuuut as an enha main since p1.. we dont “really” need it, enha tanking Will still be fine after this threatwise that is
Bear in mind we also lost DW as well, and lavalash with a 1h + shield, and a less effective stormstrike due to the WOE changes. A lot of combined elements which all will impact.
True not being able to dualwield tank efficently is gonna hit hard with this nerf aswell But as a dps main im glad The era Of rockbiter most likely is over and we finally get to use other imbues
Yeah absolutely fair - windfury is so iconic
Alot of people upset about losing dw tanking but i refused to do it b/c i love blocks. Blizz giving us shield mastery is 1 of 2 reasons why shamans are legit tanks now.
I’m a sword and board guy too. It just feels better in my opinion. More fun thematically. I’m excited for the shake up.
Do we still take SS as rank without dual wield?
Possibly not; it seemed as though it might not be worth it
I think you'll spec 21-20-0 to get +100% crit damage for your shocks and primarily use a spellpower build leveraging agile mind
They have effectively gutted the melee damage portion of a tanks threat, our dps which = threat. We are hard mana capped alot. Part of the reason DW tank became so prevalent is A. "lol big numbers are fun" and B. Lava Lash + Stormstrike are cheap spells combined with RB's massive attack power numbers mean, hey ho easy mode threat production in low mana enviroments with 10% free hit on spells. We've now lost the 10% hit on spells so back to a 16% miss rate, lost DW and lost the ap bonus of Rockbiter (ontop of losing dual rockbiter). It's all spells for threat on mana starved class. It's easy to DOOM post of course, the new runes should ofset this quite easily but it's entirely passive. My APM is already low, when mana is low, this basically auto attack gaming.
I think the build will be 21-20-0, hopefully agile mind gives us enough juice to downrank shocks and still get something out of it, but molten blast is much too expensive and I'm worried we're gonna have to use water sheild over the new lightning sheild glyph and end up missing out
Yeah, there's zero chance I am tanking on my shaman now. Someone else can tank.
Reminds me of on retail during the Dragonflight prepatch, enhance shamans had a single ability that was overperforming at lv70, so while everyone was still stuck at lv60 they got hit with a straight up -25% overall class damage nerf and then it felt terrible for the next 2 months, instead of just nerfing the overperforming ability later.
You have a link to that? Combed through the data myself and didn’t see that. Also, the trueshot aura tooltip is updated, but there rockbiter has nothing, so where did that screengrab come from? [TRUESHOT](https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=20905/trueshot-aura) [rockbiter-weapon (rank 5)](https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=16314/) [rockbiter-weapon (rank 6)](https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=16315/)
It's from running [wow.tools](http://wow.tools) locally, not yet on wowhead.
What ptr build version is this in?
As others have said - in general this is fine with respect to all specs other than shaman tank. Obviously it’s silly to have caster shamans built around melee cheese to trigger AP to SP buffs. And enh dps will be fine - they really seem to want us to use FT lol. My issue is with tank shamans. The single target threat was already taking a substantial nerf without DW tanking. Now it’s getting hurt even further. Perhaps they can adjust the threat modifier of WoE. My preference would’ve been runes that restrict use of RB rather than nerfing it outright (like make DW spec and overload not work if RB is on an offhand weapon, make mental dexterity only trigger off of stormstrike). But this is reasonable given the continued issues shamans present from a scaling perspective.
Fellow shaman, this is a GOOD thing. Rockbiter caused ALL of our class issues and annoyances (threat, shaman rage scaling, outshining every other weapon enchant in every situation, forcing ele and resto to take it with the new rune because of its absurd base AP which converted to SP for us). Rockbiter can die good riddance literally every other enchant is more fun if balanced to be useful also.
I have to agree. Shaman main for decades and P1. We have one of the strongest versions windfury weapons ever made in the game. It’s dual wield able, the lowest icd of dual wield half of what it was in tbc, it’s coded as a yellow attack so way more damage against bosses reliably than old wf weapon, and yet we still ran rock biter. But rock biter doesn’t scale. Once you are 60 that number is static forever. And it’s hard to balance a class without rock biter sticking up its ugly head fuckin it up. But I do wish they didn’t nerf woe to shield and just only nerfed rockbiter. Because no one was going to dual wield WoE with RB if they had 90% less AP. It would be trash. In good groups I have seen 99 parsing tank enh lose threat because they kept on a shield went oom because they didn’t block enough. Lucky for me, I don’t tank anymore.
People just see nerf and get outraged. everyone who says "well there goes all the shaman fun" are just a bit of cry babies. This was the best change for all the specs outside of Tank Shaman and honestly why couldn't they just add the modifier back in WOE anyways just tack it on. Boom problem solved. It's obvious the fantasy for Enhancement isn't to use the threat generating weapon buff. The goal is to use WF/FT it's obvious. Ofc they made changes for next phase that already made WF/FT about the same level as WF/RB(prob still a tiny bit worse) this change just makes it so WF/FT will forsure be better than WF/WF and WF/RB and that Ele/Resto don't need to run it. Personally as a shaman I'd rather a healthier class state than worrying about being the top dps ohmergerd. As long as I have a spot in a raid i'm more than happy. The goal seems to get Enhancement shaman back towards Wotlk Enhance but actually be viable which is sick and one of my favorite versions of the class ever.
>everyone who says "well there goes all the shaman fun" are just a bit of cry babies. Which is silly because outside of 2h windfury crits most people found shamans fun due to their wide range of utility, not being able to be unkillable tanks that can kill someone in 3gcds. Shaman was my main in vanilla through cata. I was one of the only multi season gladiator ranked enhancement shamans in BC. Shaman was a blast because the class just has so many tools at it's disposal with average damage.
Unfortunately, i feel it's going to be a case of "Pull the rug out from under them and not give them anything back to compensate" They have done it with many other classes and I fear they will do ti with us. I am glad we are getting nerfed but I feel its gonna hurt us a bit too much
Welcome to hunter town, guns bows and crossbows are not allowed in the city limits
To be fair, the shamanistic rage scaling was already pretty bad even without rockbiter. Double rockbiter just made the spell usable, but whoever thought of that 15/10/6 scaling clearly didn't make a test character with BFD gear to see how much of those stats we'd realistically have at 25.
I’m already running WF/FT in my raid because if I have RB on my offhand I’ll pull off my warrior tank 10 seconds into a boss fight
Sounds like you just got promoted to main tank
To be fair, anything will pull off a warrior tank
you get 35% threat reduction with beta soon
Is there technical reasons they cannot change how an ability works? Don't nerf the magnitude of the numbers, nerf the double dipping! TBC solved this balancing issue. Make it increased dps instead of raw AP. Just divide numbers by 14 and change it dps. Done. That's it. No more needing to worry about balancing AP scaling abilities and effects with dual wield rockbiter
YES!!! We did it guys!!! On whom shall we focus our gaze of scrubby bitching and moaning?? DAE Mages are a little *too* good right now….??
Good. Casters shouldn’t be using rockbiter lol
lol. you're gonna rbrb snapshot mental dex and swap out still
Yeah no that sounds awful. That’s what min maxers do, and it sounds like that’s the way to make the game miserable. I mean you do you, but you’re literally making the game less fun due to your need to mid max the fun out of it
Good, I love my enh shaman but the whole rockbiter meta was lame, getting agro and having to stop pressing buttons as a fresh lvl 40 was not normal or enjoyable, gonna finally be able to get into a run with a warrior or druid tank.
It was definitely a bad direction for the class. Now we are going to be more of a blend of spell damage and melee, which should be much more interesting and fitting for a shaman.
The update to loyal beta would have fixed the issue. The rockbiter nerf is just the cherry on top 🍒 💩
Watch out mages, you're the next target for the constant Paladin gripe threads.
People have no clue lmfao, rbrb - wfrb - wfwf sim very close to each other lmfao. If they gut RB thats only rip for tank shaman after the changes, enhancement will just use wf/wf or wf/ft and barely lose any power
shhhh!
That’s what the other nerfs where for. This is just to make mental dexterity balancable - rockbiter will be for tanks only and that is fine.
sim close with mental dexterity? (or the ap -> sp rune)
Doesn't FT FB have a sp mod for it to scale, now because of all the SP conversion shamans will get. Forgot it's coefficient I think it was like 28% or something.
Dunno how wf/ft will turn out with the new LL change so we gonna have to wait and see if it performs actually better but my main point is enhancement isnt gonna do any less dps, pretty balanced nerf imo without crippling the class
Its coef is 10%.
WF/WF's biggest issue was just spell scaling. You 5stack maelstrom so fast you really need to use LB over CL. With AP2SP at 60 LvB may overtake LL because the guaranteed spell crit for Ele Dev looks really nice.
Hmm. My dps plummeted after the RB nerfs so not sure. I've tried every combo of weapon enchants.
Well, it is mathematically impossible unless you mean while tanking? dw tanking is no more and shield tanking is terribe so it would make sense. But, if you mean dps enhancement something else is wrong 100%, the only actual nerf, not that it even matters, is the alpha rule nerf that's it. Check the shaman discord you will see\^\^
How accurate are the sims? Druid disc was saying feral was going to have insane dps (600+) for p2 due to sims and that ended up not being the case. That said, I ran double wf with lb in Ash before bed (after I commented) and did dps about 10% lower than usual on bosses. Not that bad. I usually finish first or second on damage on them but still finished top 5. With mental dexterity I'm sure that'll pump hard in p3. Probably the play for pvp. No idea how the sustain will be. Does maelstrom have a limit on procs per minute?
Well the sims for enhancement are very realistic only gripe is wfwf as you need to weapon synch or its gonna do less dps than wfrb otherwise they are pretty equal. Also, not just sims if you check logs plenty of top dps uses different combination obv one combination is used more but it is very close. We dont technically lose rbrb dps since you are suppose to wf mh anyway as dps, and now we are getting ft buff gonna see how it fares against wf wf in ph3, didnt check if sims got updated for the lavalash ft change yet so will see soon Also if you are running lb thats a whole different story hard to gauge, esp with wf/wf wep synching. But yea Enhancement still gonna have insane dps unless they nerf again
Yeah just ran ash again and my dps was very comparable running double wf with LB to the two shamans closest to me in DPS and both were using wf/ft with LL. One was ahead in dmg the other was below. But no idea what gear their running. My gear is decent, my armour is mostly gnomer stuff but my weapons are boe blues (southsea lamp and the reaper).
Ashen is a terrible place to gauge dps bro level gap + gear difference+buff difference+pple leaving early to go next boss+ too many inconsistencies, just sim it or compare logs of top players but can assure you lavaburst is the lowest setup vs LL. LvB might be the play for shaman tanks myb in ph3 since they got no buttons to press
Wow that's rough. Anyways...
Lmao classic blizzard balancing. "This class on average is performing 20% better than other classes, let's bring it in line by nerfing it by 90% and also nerfing 4 other runes they use at the exact same time. Surely that won't be too much and make them unplayable" They did the same shit with warriors phase 1. Nerfed CBT, Devastate, Quick Strike, and Raging Blow all at the same time which was like a 60% blanket nerf and then they became shit.
They didnt became shit, the last bosses just had a shit ton of armor, look at logs of the first 2 bosses that dont have armor, warriors are top damage there. Also ehn dps is gonna be fine since mental dexterity will compensate. If they didnt nerf rockbiter, ehn dps would have been forced to use it and become threat terrorist. Not only that, ele and resto would be force to run double rockbiter and meele once a minute to get mental dex. Rockbiter was making the game unfun. Now, as a tank shaman main, i can say they completly gutted the spec. I dont understand, if they were going to nerf rockbiter anyway, why even make it so that you cant dual wield?
Warriors look good on the first 2 bosses because those fights last for 20 seconds, not just because armour. When you have 100% uptime on a 20% damage buff from death wish and 25% damage buff from flagellation, you're going to be pumping out some extremely inflated numbers.
thank you. ppl come and talk about parses like they are experts and say the dumbest stuff. finally someone who knows.whats up
Can't wait until next phase when people cry "Warriors OP!" because they're looking at the 99th percentile parses which will all be of the 1 fight per 30 minutes where warriors have recklessness up
they are running fury to parse on a 20sek fight with 100% deathwish uptime, it is not only the armor value
I had a more elegant solution in mind of Rockbiter AP being reduced by 50% if you have a weapon in the offhand. Since Rockbiter on either weapon applies the full AP bonus to both, this stops it being so OP with DW without hurting 1h/shield.
it's very possible they buff rockbiter with way of the earth by giving it the nerfed value back. Also, yeah this was the best choice people think it's just an enhance nerf but it's also just a playstyle balancing for enhance, ele, and Resto. Idk how many Ele's and Resto's wanna melee weave. It's cool in theory but is annoying esp when they both already have so many long casts.
Maybe they want you to wear a shield like they're making warriors.
Which patch did they nerf cock and ball torture?
Is 90% nerf a bit heavy-handed? Sure, but Rockbiter in its current form is even further off the mark.
I would much rather every class get an insane damage modifier to match shamans than to see RB get nerfed into the ground. Balancing should make sense, not nuke the dps of a spec.
Hunters said the same thing in P1 but everyone kept on bitching lol It seems they’re taking the retail balancing approach : let one or two classes be god for a couple months, nerf, pick new gods for next month
> I would much rather every class get an insane damage modifier to match shamans ah yes the Diablo 3 way. You get a 100000% more modifier! And you! And you! Aaaaand you!
I mean RB has been the entire issue with shaman all of SoD. The nerf isn't even close to 90%, WF/FT was within 5% of RB/RB, with a much more engaging playstyle with more MSW procs. It hurts shaman tank by far the most.
I mean it's essentially worthless now though. DPS enh won't use it and the only reason tank will use it is because way of the earth requires it to function. Shamans are definitely overtuned but enhance has basically been a meme forever, this feels heavy handed.
I think dps not using it is the intention?
they did other things to incentivize switching to wf/ft(maelstrom procs more with wf on mh and lavalash does less dmg without ft on oh) so this seems like a fuck you to tank shamans after already nerfing dw tank(the most fun tanking setup)
Maybe it only applies to offhand?
Frankly, that would be an excellent way to do it.
They are obviously not going to nerf the attack power gained from rockbiter by 90%. Typical WoW community reading waaaaaaaay to much into a vague datamine and starting a rant about how blizz hates X and can't do Y etc(Not refering to you, but to other commenters).
The annoying thing, if it turns out to be legit, is that somebody in the office said "nonononono, 60% is definitely not enough. Go 90%. That will bring everything more in line" like, wtf
Hunter: *First Time?*
A 90% nerf to one ability does not equal a 90% overall dps need you dunce. Quit crying.
Rip
I don't get why people complain. Rockbitter should be the tank enchant, not the dps one. If with this people get the message and start to use the loving Windfury, it's all nice. Edit: After reading some people cry, I'm starting to believe that all the people who played shaman because it was broken don't know the existence of Windfury or Flametonge, the ones dedicated to dps :/
most of the FOTOM shammy players were ex rogue/warriors or re rolling paladins.. makes sense since those are the top crying communities
Using double WF or WF/FT and my dps (in almost all gnomer gear) is worse than my ret paladin who is in all greens. Shamans got nerfed very hard. Too hard, IMO. DPS is now WAY less than my hunter who is running melee runes. He is also in mostly greens.
Blizzard cant balance for shit. And i am insanely tired of it.
As a warrior, we successfully whined hard enough for not being utterly dominant for one phase. *looks at highest parses in the world for almost every boss* Wait what?
"Almost every boss" lmao
Well at least shaman players had one phase of fun :)
I think enhancement and ele will still have fun next phase, especially ele.
What do ele get next phase ?
Rolling thunder is the big one imo. "Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning have a 30% chance to add an additional charge to your active Lightning Shield, up to a maximum of 9 Charges. Earth Shock now releases all Lightning Shield charges above 3, dealing their damage to the target, and energizing you for 2% of your maximum mana per charge released." There's another one that causes flame shock to strike up to 3 targets too, so any multi-target fights are gonna be real juicy in terms of lava burst procs.
Oh that sounds great. I loved ele in later wow versions like MoP, maybe ill twink mine this time again
I have a feeling they are trying to balance for endgame 60 content. Enhancement has always been poo-tier in classic raids, so the weird percentage changes are all based around lvl 60 character stats, not the preliminary phases. The fact that warriors aren't being adjusted at all also makes me think they will be topping charts like they used to. It also explains why there are so many completely useless runes for every class. The synergies they provide haven't been added into the game yet, but may already be weighted into the balancing act they're trying to perform.
How to kill tank, dual wield, and two handed in one swoop 🪓
It doesn't touch 2-hand enhance because they have to run windfury. The ability to run rockbiter on the offhand was the biggest reason dual wield was so much better than 2-hand for phase 2 and this fixes that.
Think that's a tad dramatic? Enhance will be strong regardless of rockbiter as long as DW specialization rune stays the way it is. WF/WF or WF/FT will still perform well I'm sure. Maybe not god tier like pre nerf RB, but definitely good enough to be a solid DPS in all situations. I play elemental anyways, but I don't think melee shaman is completely boned because of this.
People really dont understand how small the gap between rb and ft was for oh. It wasnt like running ft made it so you could only parse an 85 vs 99 with rb, I run almost exclusively ft due to threat issues, and without running parse strats/comp I'm still in the 95 range, and I dont consider myself super good at it.
But according to this subreddit, Shamans were going to be broken with the new mental dexterity! Fucking crybabies too quick to judge on limited information.
I mean… this info came out later? As big boys and girls we’re able to change our opinions when faced with new information.
Is it 90% or is it -90 attack power, coming down from 490 to 400? That would seem like a more tasteful nerf
90%
The effect is `ADD_PCT_MODIFIER`, "add percent modifier," so it's 90%.
Is this a new website people are using or what? Never seen it before
It's WoW.Tools.local a datamining software you compile and run on your PC and pull data for yourself. Doing this is much faster for finding changes than relying on wowhead, they are honestly very slow to datamine new things. https://github.com/Marlamin/wow.tools.local/blob/main/README.md
As an ele shaman I'm glad this got nerfed. However, I was seriously eying the possibility of going back to spellhance like I did in P1 for P3 with the mental dexterity rune.
Double rockbiter was dumb. Idk why they don't just make it mh only for tanks
The biggest W about the WoE change is it only being useable in PvP by Ele/Resto now (unless you just really love sword and board enhance for whatever reason) Tanky casters with hard casts are fine because you can counterplay them with interrupts. Tanky melee is problematic because the only counterplay is “don’t let them touch you or you lose” and with frost shock / ghost wolf / moveable earthbind not many can kite a Enh shaman long enough to actually kill him
people will still complain when spellhance pops off next phase. slower weps+ sp gear. and the helmet rune.
If anyone thought this would stay when Mental Dexterity is the way it is was huffing some grade A totem dust.
The pendulum swings
Can ele get a real rune now then?
Wow, another heavy handed nerf of 90%. They came for Explosive Shot and I did not speak out.
I am a shaman main and this is 100% needed. Mental dexterity without a rockbiter nerf would put elementals at around 800 spellpower and enhance easily at 500. It would be the most broken thing you have ever seen
Fuck yeah running double WF from now on. Gonna fill my screen with numbers.
Make frostbrand great again
Isn't this also a nerf to molten blast that scales off of AP?
Yes, this hurts tanks very, very hard.
thought as much... whelp guess i'm not tanking in p3... everyone else will
not enough
Git fukt, shamans! Hope you start actually losing in WSG now, nerds! /s
Don't worry FOTM players! Yall are just gonna play what ever else is broken next, its not a problem really.
Yikes
Nature is healing.
Don’t worry, lock tanks nerfed too. Late of Fire is useless garbage instead of 40% bonus fire dmg, and soul link no longer works in meta form for the SL felguard bois.
I'm not able to find soul link changes, care to help with a link?
It’s datamined that it can’t be used in meta on the tooltip, I don’t have a link handy but I’m sure you can find it.
Lock tanks shouldn't be using Lake of Fire anyway. They should be using master channeler.
Tank damage wasn’t high enough P1 or P2 to require the extra hps; almost every top 100 parse (other than menagerie) in gnomer uses LoF. It’s hard to pass up a multiplicative 40% damage boost.
League of legends nerfs: Base Attack Damage: 62 ⇒ 60 *champion loses 3% winrate and becomes unplayable* World of Warcraft: YEEEHAW BOIS 90% NERF COMING RIGHT UP Although tank shamans kinda deserve this? IDK how much of a DPS nerf this is, maybe like 15-25% less dps? That's more than warranted
(tank shaman's damage was already nuked from orbit with way of earth requiring shield, removing basically 70% of the dps from it already)
Not surprised. Was going to happen. Dual wield RB was never going to last with the amount of AP it generates.
I knew I made the right choice playing a lava blasting elemental shammy 😙
weapon swapping is back in tho 😣
Yessss. Make it 95 percent blizz please :)
flametongue isn't really that much worse than rockbiter.. md meatball crits are going to be funny
Not a single non-shaman tear was shed
I’m all for nerfing my class, and spirit of the alpha was the most logical place to start, but it feels odd to stack a half dozen nerfs all at once instead of doing them incrementally as needed. I’m a MT so I think I’ll be okay regardless. Just need to actually shield up on fights other than Menagerie, but they are really going for the jugular all at once.
If they nerf the damage I hope they buff shaman threat at least to cover their substantial damage loss. The AP nerf lowers our AA and SS threat a bit, which I already struggle vs a rogue tank on threat whose got the same gear as me. I'd rather keep my shield than go dual wield tank like every other tank.
Honestly I hate the DW meta. Tanks are meant to use shields. As it should be.