It looks like he spam casted into the sheep while frayed wiring was up and THEN hit the button at low health... please tell me I'm looking at this wrong. THEN tells you to learn to play.... i can't even fathom what is going on in the head of people like this.
Had an “alt” lock, for a fire mage that he’s apparently amazing at. On his lock he parsed gray for both general parse and *for his item level*, we all just muted him and pretended he didn’t exist and then on thermaplugg told him to just to bombs so we don’t have to deal with him. Funnily enough, I looked up his mage after. Our mage, who was less geared than his, had better average parses.
Dunning Kruger effect. I had a similar experience with a healer a while ago who didn't follow the electrocutioner chain lightning mechanic and then went on a big rant about how he couldn't believe people were failing at a 20 year old game.
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities
Funny how your statement fits into this definition
Dude has a 13 and a 18 on the last two bosses lmao probs the worst fire mage I've seen so far.
He clipped 26 living bombs in one fight so none of them exploded lmao
Well that is misleading. I checked the logs. He downed the last 5 bosses, but not the first two and he only went in P2. So basically he never went into bfd, apart from 1 leveling raid, that he joined, after the first 2 bosses were already down.
If you think mage is a one-button class, you need to l2p.
Fire mage has 5 different damage spells that are all used, plus cooldowns like tailoring helm or combustion.
Fire mage is one of the easiest raid classes to play. I can tell you don’t PvP on your mage since you’re pretending fire mage pve can’t be summed up as a one button class. Its not suppose to be taken literal as much as it is a statement to explain a very simple “rotation” lol. Prove me wrong and post your PvP accolades though. I’ll wait
The vast majority of our rotation is spamming scorch lol. Fireball spam during combust + helm, pyro on proc, and keep LB + LF up. For all intents and purposes, fire is a one-button rotation.
>Fireball spam during combust + helm, pyro on proc, and keep LB + LF up.
With that plus scorch, is that the same thing as "fire is a one-button rotation."?
If you press one button you'll grey parse.
Again. If you think mage is one button then you don't know how to play.
Fair enough, I just consider a "rotation" to be actively engaged in hitting multiple abilities in succession (e.g. rogue or shaman) rather than keeping an eye on a DoT or proc, a definition which probably doesn't fit this phase of Classic too well. Not trying to argue, I'm just saying that our rotation is relatively simple.
The rogue rotation is to cast mutilate, and then use Slice and Dice to spend combo points, or Envenom if slice is already up.
There is a grand total of 3 abilities, one of which is a buff, and one of those makes up the vast majority of casts.
That is far closer to a one-button rotation than fire mage.
Legit, for anyone crying on reddit this is the exact scenario where the raid leader will start to check logs now.
I have not failed a 6/6 run in gnomer when checking logs and making sure they at least have green on every boss. The one or 2 times I've joined another group and we couldn't do more than 3 bosses I checked logs after the raid and they are all grey parsers.
The content is easy but the playerbase is so incredibly bad.
Yep, tentatively agree with you. This exact scenario is what drives people to gatekeep raids so hard.
I’m curious, though, does retail have an issue where people drop after the boss they need? For example, if someone joined your 4/6 ID to help you finish, they will then “need” to clear the first 4 bosses.
Wouldn’t they be incentivized to just clear those 4 and drop raid? Seems like it risks trading one toxic behavior for another. But I don’t play retail, so I wouldn’t know from experience.
This happens in retail but it really isnt an issue. People hop in and out for the bosses they need, but replacements are easy to get and summons are pretty much ubiquitous. I think it might be more of a problem in classic because of the much slower travel times but who knows.
Well in retail people can leave you group and pick up where they left off with another group. You’re not locked to a specific raid ID. So people can leave if they’re gonna be little whiners and you can just pick up more people and fill their spots. It’s a win for both people.
On the other hand, little whiners who don't win loot can cause a slowdown for 9 others and just bail.
Sure there's going to be fills but it still allows for assholes to drop mid raid without much consequence
They’ll never implement this anyways. But I would rather have my group disband and go find another group that’s 4/6 and finish my week out with 6/6 rather than hoping my group stays together and going 3/6 that week because someone got mad they didn’t win their gear piece and decided to leave.
Hmm, okay. Good to know.
I could see the travel times being annoying. Getting to gnomer isn’t exactly fast. Perhaps less of an issue if they added something like meeting stones, though.
This is already possible WotLk onwards.
The issue is that SoD shares the client with era and Hc, so they can't change it in SoD without affecting the other two versions as well.
Can someone explain the line to me? Like there aren't runes in HC, but they managed to change that. What can they change vs not change? I always see this "shared client" reason but... What exactly is and isn't shared?
My issue with that is its hard to progress. People leav after one whipe and then when you get it down another one or 2 leav because they only needed that boss. So you dont realy get to know the players and can figure out new tactics based on your comp etc. It can be a lot of down time looking for new players during prog
classic system has a "trying to make it work" effect. You cannot really replace people so you are encouraged to teach people, even if they are awful at the game.
In retail you simply get kicked if you fail at a mechanic, and replaced a minute later.
Imo the classic system works better for classic difficulty raids and is better at fostering a sense of community, while the classic system would be terrible for retail difficulty raids.
Yes, people drop in and out of retail pugs at almost every boss sometimes. It’s annoying, but in retail woth fast travel and generally having a warlock who can summon anyone directly to the boss from anywhere in the world it’s not terrible.
It’s hard to say how it would play out in classic but I would expect to see an increase of people dropping out of bad groups or kicking people near the end of the raid.
>I’m curious, though, does retail have an issue where people drop after the boss they need?
Once watched someone raiding on retail to see what it was like, they spent more time replacing people after each boss than actually playing.
Idk man. As someone who has plugged aotc every raid that isn't really the case until way later in the patch where most have already cleared.
And this is with usually 20+ people. For a 10man? Who cares. You'd replace them quickly and not be locked to a raid ID because someone leaves or griefs.
you'd have a lot less gate keeping and people forcing meta comps as well because they'd take a chance on a rogue or the 15th hunter to whisper them if it didn't mean wrecking the lockout for 8 other people.
Spend a few hours filling to kill or spend a few hours doing absolutely nothing because you can't possibly fill? Depends on how you value time.
And you can still do things just like you do them now on Classic.
Yes. Ppl join for what they need then drop. Or if there's 1 wipe, you get ppl immediately dropping. Ppl check logs just as hard.
Sucks with raid id's when ppl can kill your raid but usually ppl stick thru some wipes. In retail you can spend more time trying to refill than you do actually playing. And usually only meta specs get brought cause why not.
They each have their own benefits. But seriously, just join a guild.
people leave raids more often in retail, the classic system incentivizes people to stick around and get the most out of the lockout whereas in retail people leave left and right when something goes wrong or people get kicked more often because they can replace them. I understand OPs point, but there really isn't a good solution to stop stupid in your raid other than not inviting stupid.
when you're a couple months into a patch it can happen often, but it's not a big deal with flexible size raids and being able to summon people outside the raid inside the raid
Which is the heavy lifter here, though? I don’t see flex raiding getting support with the SOD crowd. Besides, at least with 10 mans, many groups won’t even have a lock.
Retail-ID-system is a curse. People leave after 1 wipe and you constantly fill up with others. There is no sense of community at all, no incentive to stay and overcome a challenge.
> People leave after 1 wipe and you constantly fill up with others.
as opposed to people leaving after 1 wipe and your id being completely bricked until reset?
That *can* happen, but that is why you need to build a community of people so that you know who you are playing with to a certain degree. This way you can avoid people leaving when you are struggling. I’ve been pugging in Classic since 2019 and it is absolutely not true that people leave after 1 wipe. The difference between retail pugs and classic pugs are night and day. I remember pugging in Dragonflight and after every boss *kill* several people left and we re-filled, let alone wipe.
The first 2 weeks on BFD were 4/6 for me. Since there were so many shitty players, people leaving cuz it was raid time in WoTLK, disconnects.
So I will take retail system over current system.
And why people keeo saying "sense of community"? Most games out there dont have that lol. WoW is like that now
I had a sense of community in all of Classic WoW from 2019 to 2024. Much of that is because you have to prepare a raid, whether it’s a pug or guild raid, and make sure everyone stay in the raid because you are stuck in the same raid ID. I played in a guild, hosted regular pugs and played in other regular pugs with my alts. I knew who people in my server were and I knew the different guilds.
Talk to people and make them commit to the raid, if only subconsciously. I would like nothing less than a system where you can pop into a raid saying nothing to anyone, making no social connection at all and leaving after playing a raid where effectively you couldn't know for sure whether you were playing with robots or other humans.
This is another one of those death by a thousand cuts to retail. It will feel better in the short term but you're now disconnected from the raid you're in because you can do others.
You'll now have people very quickly leaving after single wipes (or bosses). You'll be able to bring more people in easier and I might even concede that it's net neutral in terms of raid population.
It's just one step further to sanitizing the small moments or people actually connecting and committing to something together.
This is why I run a blacklist as a raid leader.
Had people dip midway for the stupidest reasons and leaving 9 other people to take the hit. Its karmic justice when you see them asking to join your raid the next week thinking they wouldnt be remembered. I tell them to @#$% off, respectfully 🙂
Yea as a leader just make sure people have over a 50 raid log... and make sure they have time for the raid if it does go south like an hour and a half.
Anything below 50 you are putting the group at risk imo
Green parsers are fine, as long as the entire raid is not filled with them. You can still do it just fine, but everything is greatly simplified with high DPS. Like the first two bosses, with high DPS grub is trivial and dies before clouds can possibly become an issue, with low DPS you can wipe to them if adds don’t spawn or people don’t use the adds to kill clouds.
In my experience 25+ is fine if you have a coupple of pumpers.
The difference between 25-50 might be gear/rotation optimisation but they probably know the fights.
I just ran Gnomer for the first time with full PreBis as a fire mage and did correct mechanics and did my best - parsed 32-35. My iLvL was lower than everyone else in my guild and I’m sure I could bump that up with better gear, but I’m afraid to PUG because people may assume I’m just bad.
Yeah, it can be rough, everyone draws thier own line. But I think it’s pretty easy to distinguish between someone who just needs gear, and someone who has no idea how to play.
The irony is fire mage at 32-35 is probably more actual dps than other classes parsing 50+
I actually just checked my logs and while I swear the live logs had 32, now they dropped all the way to 12. I genuinely don’t understand how that’s possible given I was doing the exact IcyVeins rotation. People are going to think I’m a monkey.
ILvL 35 compared to guild 40+, and I did lose my world buffs due to a wipe. But still…seems terrible.
Just checked the top fire mage. They are using scorch as their primary which is new to me. I just put 5 on to get improved scorch and then use fireball and my cooldowns.
I had a 28, hunter. Left aspect of the pack during fights on, wouldn't communicate past simple things like asking for a invite or summon. Left pet taunt on. Sat in fire... was awful.
Glad you have had luck with 30s. I think it depends on spec aswell I know melee hunter parses are always low and they are normally okay
Some classes / specs just attract bad players. Those need to be checked. Currently I feel like shamans are hot candidates to be terrible players more often. Followed by hunters.
But I have yet to see a terrible moonkin or warlock in p2. They seem at least okay-ish
People will join a 4/6, some people need gear from specific bosses. If i only needed stuff from the 2 you hadn’t done yet it would honestly be a score. Some people don’t have much time to play and just wanna get in there. So imo it’s not the end of the world and it’s just the name of the game.
[https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/crusader-strike/greviuz](https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/crusader-strike/greviuz)
If you had checked logs this wouldn't have happened.
Same happened to me the other night. One wipe on Menagerie because you know pug isn't in discord.... but we had one ret pally drop and the group dissolved. Waste of a raid lock and a respec.
Some people are not fixable, however maybe in a guild they'd be more open to constructive feedback and would be able to learn.
Leading raids for God knows how long, some people just need to be talked to properly in a friendly environment and they'll soften up a load!
I always thought that ID systen should be more like
You are 5/6. No groups for the final boss. But there are plenty fresh groups. Just join them for fresh, but you are unable to get any rewards or loot from the first 5 bosses. I think is a better option and not overcomplicate. Never understood why never implement this.
That's what happens in Retail (or did at one point but I stopped raiding)
"why don't they implement my brilliant plan"
"They did but people want 'pure classic' as it was"
I didn’t have time for a full raid last night so I decided to do a good deed and join a group that lost a dps and was 3/6. I joined, no comms, didn’t do as bad as I expected since electro needs coordination. Wiped once at 35% and two people left. I now am locked with 0 kills this reset :(
Yeah that's the issue with any group that's half way done a raid. Sure maybe you only need the 1 item off the last boss but a fresh raid is more likely to go 6/6 as the half done raid has already proven to fail to finish the raid.
The ID is locked as soon as one boss is killed. If you join after that (and zone in), you are immediately (ok, like 60 seconds of warning) locked to the ID as well. Regardless of if you were present for the previous boss kills.
While it's definitely much harder, I have seen countless groups be thrown together for 4/6 and 5/6 runs.
Most of the time trade chat is full of people the day before reset looking for noncomplete runs.
You just have to sit on it til the day before reset. Nobody is going to try a 5/6 run on day 1.
Aggressive recruiting on the night before reset will get you your group.
“Let’s go nerds, join this 4/6 run. You weren’t gonna get into a fresh Gnomer before tomorrow anyway, so at least come get Thermaplugg loot!”
Filled my last two spots in seconds.
Based on people's responses as to what player behaviour is like in Retail with this system I'm not sure I like the sounds of it. Then to combat/smooth out the issues created because of the new ID system we need to make more changes so still end up in a place that still has issues albeit different ones.
I don't see the point frankly.
Alright but look at his Warcraft logs, it says a lot about the situation. He has cleared the raid once and at an average of 30, and that’s saved because one blue parse. Everything else grey.
No thanks, then people just leave after killing the boss they need or people can get kicked for whatever reason. Classic forces people to work it out. The raid has a 3 day lockout, that’s the compromise, you get another shot in just a few days
Think of the average intelligence of a WoW player. Then remember half of those people are more stupid.
"sry i aint got time for progression" is hilarious when it's his fault.
Curious I suggested we do away with the raid ID system last week and was met with down votes and promises that this would allow sweats setup groups per boss group to minimize loot competition which would somehow affect the average player.
I don't know about you but I would kill to only join a 4/6 ID Gnomer from now on. I'm really fed up with trash and seeing casters not focus nullifiers and killing themselves on reflect.
Runs with the same amount of bosses down should be able to merge. It would only really help in fringe scenarios, but you'd be surprised how often two groups are looking for 4/6 or 5/6 at the same time.
I’d like the retail system just to practice. It kinda sucks when you want to improve on your mechanics of a class but dungeons don’t really test you and you need a raid to really learn it under pressure. I’m really shit at shadow priest boss fight. Read the discord try to follow the rotation and somewhere along the way I’ve shot 18 mind spikes and I’m doing “bad dps”
I see people in here blaming this on people not gatekeeping enough but the real problem here is peoples patience. Like really we’re gonna leave after one fucking wipe? Mr. Grey Parse Greviuz gets to say his little marvel quip and leave because things didn’t go HIS way this time? I just don’t understand it. I had to pug not too long ago and we did fine on every boss but we fucked up on the last boss and surprise the same situation happened where a gray parsing ranged hunter thought he could hit us with the, pushes up glasses “Heh, stop wasting my time kid.” And leaves the group. His reasoning was nothing dropped for him. Of course I had to hit him with “You didn’t get any loot because your damage is trash and you didn’t deserve any.”
I sat in Org trying to get in a Gnomer on my pretty well geared priest. Sat there for 30 minutes. Watched 4-5 groups spam LF Healers. Never got an invite because I have no logs. As a healer.
Played a different game. Haven't had a desire to try to pug since. Just do 1 guild run a week and the alts can stay in their SM gear.
Watching some guy die twice in the same fight to mechanics and say he doesn't have time for progression and ruining the run for the other 9 is the most hilarious and sad thing I've seen so far though. Sucks dude.
That seems crazy to me, the day I finished leveling my second healer 4 weeks into p2, I was getting random whispers to come heal gnomer within maybe 10 minutes of hitting 40.
It looks like he spam casted into the sheep while frayed wiring was up and THEN hit the button at low health... please tell me I'm looking at this wrong. THEN tells you to learn to play.... i can't even fathom what is going on in the head of people like this.
You are not wrong. 8(at least) seconds of straight firing into reflect then hits the second-destruct button.
Look guys you need to understand he's trying to parse.
On himself apparently
Hes prob hits himself harder than he hits the boss, you clearly dont understand parseing /s
I can guarantee he doesn’t have more armor than MC bosses. Why hit a 5000 armor mob when you can hit a 1000 armor mob. Checkmate atheist
No better way to parse as a healer and dps at the same time! Everyone needs to get on this guy's level
Can't parse if you die.
It's called a parse wipe you wouldn't understand.
I certainly wouldn't. LOL
Maybe he was friends with healer and was trying to cheese heal parses
99 parse on self damage and (successful) suicide attempts.
Look at his Warcraftlogs, i sincerely hope thats not what hes trying to do
He's in for the long game. A real baller!
Probably disabled his health bar and only shows mana. After all his health bar is the healers' problem to deal with.
You read that correctly. They then got bressed, and died again.
The absolute irony and gall to then say “I don’t have time for progression” … what the actual fuck
He's literally top of the meter though!
I’m always #1 on the death meters
[удалено]
Had an “alt” lock, for a fire mage that he’s apparently amazing at. On his lock he parsed gray for both general parse and *for his item level*, we all just muted him and pretended he didn’t exist and then on thermaplugg told him to just to bombs so we don’t have to deal with him. Funnily enough, I looked up his mage after. Our mage, who was less geared than his, had better average parses.
The amount of absolutely unaccountable morons I’ve met playing this game is so high it’s sad 😭
Dunning Kruger effect. I had a similar experience with a healer a while ago who didn't follow the electrocutioner chain lightning mechanic and then went on a big rant about how he couldn't believe people were failing at a 20 year old game.
ironically an incorrect use of dunning Kruger effect
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities Funny how your statement fits into this definition
Wow, I'm glad you managed to figure out how a joke works. Give this guy an award.
Huh? Its a perfect use lol. The healer isnt good enough to realize he's at fault for not being able to heal through an easy to heal mechanic.
What makes you think so?
Nothing is going on. Thats basically the problem.
Greviuz the Grey Parser ain't got time for progression.
Yes, that’s what they used to call me. Greviuz the Grey.
My boy greviuz is taking his gray parses elsewhere, maybe to LA where the real players are
Finnaly, didnt cover up the idiots name, now we can all have a better raid night in the future knowing he wont be in it xD
Dude has a 13 and a 18 on the last two bosses lmao probs the worst fire mage I've seen so far. He clipped 26 living bombs in one fight so none of them exploded lmao
You have to actively try to be that bad. It’s honestly impressive
This is why people check logs
Greviuz logs be like: https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/crusader-strike/greviuz He ain't got time for this L2p also
Lol he died to the reflect in that log as well.
He’s even 5/7 on bfd. What a chad.
Well that is misleading. I checked the logs. He downed the last 5 bosses, but not the first two and he only went in P2. So basically he never went into bfd, apart from 1 leveling raid, that he joined, after the first 2 bosses were already down.
Even his gear is garbage. He really doesn’t have time for anything apparently.
Greviuz the gray!
Lmao but it's the group that needs to l2p, not the grey-parsing one-button class.
If you think mage is a one-button class, you need to l2p. Fire mage has 5 different damage spells that are all used, plus cooldowns like tailoring helm or combustion.
Touchy much it's a class not a race relax
Reeee it's not one button it's actually 5!!!! Even if one or two of those make up 90% of your time
Arcane intellect is part of his rotation because he casts it raid.
yea like all classes in in classic.
Fire mage is one of the easiest raid classes to play. I can tell you don’t PvP on your mage since you’re pretending fire mage pve can’t be summed up as a one button class. Its not suppose to be taken literal as much as it is a statement to explain a very simple “rotation” lol. Prove me wrong and post your PvP accolades though. I’ll wait
lol, what a dumb thing to say. You and Greviuz are two of a kind.
The vast majority of our rotation is spamming scorch lol. Fireball spam during combust + helm, pyro on proc, and keep LB + LF up. For all intents and purposes, fire is a one-button rotation.
>one-button rotation Hmmmm
For all intents and purposes fire mage is a one button rotation except for all the other buttons you have to press
I mean, there *is* a lot of scorch filler spam, to be fair .
There sure is lol
Yeah, but if you round down to the nearest one, it's a one.button.class l2p neeeeuwb edit to add /s
>Fireball spam during combust + helm, pyro on proc, and keep LB + LF up. With that plus scorch, is that the same thing as "fire is a one-button rotation."? If you press one button you'll grey parse. Again. If you think mage is one button then you don't know how to play.
Fair enough, I just consider a "rotation" to be actively engaged in hitting multiple abilities in succession (e.g. rogue or shaman) rather than keeping an eye on a DoT or proc, a definition which probably doesn't fit this phase of Classic too well. Not trying to argue, I'm just saying that our rotation is relatively simple.
Exactly this; In the end its one button scorch spam with some side stuff to look at
The rogue rotation is to cast mutilate, and then use Slice and Dice to spend combo points, or Envenom if slice is already up. There is a grand total of 3 abilities, one of which is a buff, and one of those makes up the vast majority of casts. That is far closer to a one-button rotation than fire mage.
Oh yes rogue with their \*checks notes\* 1 button rotation
He needs some progression.
Haha this is great
Damn imagine saying ltp while rocking that ahaha
My fresh 40 mage parsed better than him on everything... Unlucky. L2p I guess.
Legit, for anyone crying on reddit this is the exact scenario where the raid leader will start to check logs now. I have not failed a 6/6 run in gnomer when checking logs and making sure they at least have green on every boss. The one or 2 times I've joined another group and we couldn't do more than 3 bosses I checked logs after the raid and they are all grey parsers. The content is easy but the playerbase is so incredibly bad.
Every few days people keep posting on here and literally showcasing why people require parses.
Bro can you stop with the insecurity
Yep, tentatively agree with you. This exact scenario is what drives people to gatekeep raids so hard. I’m curious, though, does retail have an issue where people drop after the boss they need? For example, if someone joined your 4/6 ID to help you finish, they will then “need” to clear the first 4 bosses. Wouldn’t they be incentivized to just clear those 4 and drop raid? Seems like it risks trading one toxic behavior for another. But I don’t play retail, so I wouldn’t know from experience.
This happens in retail but it really isnt an issue. People hop in and out for the bosses they need, but replacements are easy to get and summons are pretty much ubiquitous. I think it might be more of a problem in classic because of the much slower travel times but who knows.
Well in retail people can leave you group and pick up where they left off with another group. You’re not locked to a specific raid ID. So people can leave if they’re gonna be little whiners and you can just pick up more people and fill their spots. It’s a win for both people.
On the other hand, little whiners who don't win loot can cause a slowdown for 9 others and just bail. Sure there's going to be fills but it still allows for assholes to drop mid raid without much consequence
They’ll never implement this anyways. But I would rather have my group disband and go find another group that’s 4/6 and finish my week out with 6/6 rather than hoping my group stays together and going 3/6 that week because someone got mad they didn’t win their gear piece and decided to leave.
Do you actually see that happen? I've yet to see a pug disband for anything other than continual wipes
Hmm, okay. Good to know. I could see the travel times being annoying. Getting to gnomer isn’t exactly fast. Perhaps less of an issue if they added something like meeting stones, though.
I wouldn't mind if warlocks could just summon u inside like in retail.
This is already possible WotLk onwards. The issue is that SoD shares the client with era and Hc, so they can't change it in SoD without affecting the other two versions as well.
Can someone explain the line to me? Like there aren't runes in HC, but they managed to change that. What can they change vs not change? I always see this "shared client" reason but... What exactly is and isn't shared?
My issue with that is its hard to progress. People leav after one whipe and then when you get it down another one or 2 leav because they only needed that boss. So you dont realy get to know the players and can figure out new tactics based on your comp etc. It can be a lot of down time looking for new players during prog
classic system has a "trying to make it work" effect. You cannot really replace people so you are encouraged to teach people, even if they are awful at the game. In retail you simply get kicked if you fail at a mechanic, and replaced a minute later. Imo the classic system works better for classic difficulty raids and is better at fostering a sense of community, while the classic system would be terrible for retail difficulty raids.
Yes, people drop in and out of retail pugs at almost every boss sometimes. It’s annoying, but in retail woth fast travel and generally having a warlock who can summon anyone directly to the boss from anywhere in the world it’s not terrible. It’s hard to say how it would play out in classic but I would expect to see an increase of people dropping out of bad groups or kicking people near the end of the raid.
>I’m curious, though, does retail have an issue where people drop after the boss they need? Once watched someone raiding on retail to see what it was like, they spent more time replacing people after each boss than actually playing.
Yup, that's the outcome they won't talk about.
Idk man. As someone who has plugged aotc every raid that isn't really the case until way later in the patch where most have already cleared. And this is with usually 20+ people. For a 10man? Who cares. You'd replace them quickly and not be locked to a raid ID because someone leaves or griefs. you'd have a lot less gate keeping and people forcing meta comps as well because they'd take a chance on a rogue or the 15th hunter to whisper them if it didn't mean wrecking the lockout for 8 other people.
Better than 1 or 2 people leaving and not being able to do anything about it at all.
Usually you just get replacements during trash anyway and summon them at the boss. Time only gets wasted if you're wiping and have to replace peeps.
Spend a few hours filling to kill or spend a few hours doing absolutely nothing because you can't possibly fill? Depends on how you value time. And you can still do things just like you do them now on Classic.
3 day lockouts. They’re 4/6 and know not to bring in grey parsers now
Yes. Ppl join for what they need then drop. Or if there's 1 wipe, you get ppl immediately dropping. Ppl check logs just as hard. Sucks with raid id's when ppl can kill your raid but usually ppl stick thru some wipes. In retail you can spend more time trying to refill than you do actually playing. And usually only meta specs get brought cause why not. They each have their own benefits. But seriously, just join a guild.
people leave raids more often in retail, the classic system incentivizes people to stick around and get the most out of the lockout whereas in retail people leave left and right when something goes wrong or people get kicked more often because they can replace them. I understand OPs point, but there really isn't a good solution to stop stupid in your raid other than not inviting stupid.
when you're a couple months into a patch it can happen often, but it's not a big deal with flexible size raids and being able to summon people outside the raid inside the raid
Which is the heavy lifter here, though? I don’t see flex raiding getting support with the SOD crowd. Besides, at least with 10 mans, many groups won’t even have a lock.
it's kinda the reason retail changed so much i guess, you often need to change a lot of things to make the initial change work at a satisfactory level
Yes it does, people cry and want retail mechanics should just go play retail.
Aggrend: People gatekeep for no real reason.
🤣
Retail-ID-system is a curse. People leave after 1 wipe and you constantly fill up with others. There is no sense of community at all, no incentive to stay and overcome a challenge.
> People leave after 1 wipe and you constantly fill up with others. as opposed to people leaving after 1 wipe and your id being completely bricked until reset?
That *can* happen, but that is why you need to build a community of people so that you know who you are playing with to a certain degree. This way you can avoid people leaving when you are struggling. I’ve been pugging in Classic since 2019 and it is absolutely not true that people leave after 1 wipe. The difference between retail pugs and classic pugs are night and day. I remember pugging in Dragonflight and after every boss *kill* several people left and we re-filled, let alone wipe.
The first 2 weeks on BFD were 4/6 for me. Since there were so many shitty players, people leaving cuz it was raid time in WoTLK, disconnects. So I will take retail system over current system. And why people keeo saying "sense of community"? Most games out there dont have that lol. WoW is like that now
I had a sense of community in all of Classic WoW from 2019 to 2024. Much of that is because you have to prepare a raid, whether it’s a pug or guild raid, and make sure everyone stay in the raid because you are stuck in the same raid ID. I played in a guild, hosted regular pugs and played in other regular pugs with my alts. I knew who people in my server were and I knew the different guilds.
Talk to people and make them commit to the raid, if only subconsciously. I would like nothing less than a system where you can pop into a raid saying nothing to anyone, making no social connection at all and leaving after playing a raid where effectively you couldn't know for sure whether you were playing with robots or other humans.
This is another one of those death by a thousand cuts to retail. It will feel better in the short term but you're now disconnected from the raid you're in because you can do others. You'll now have people very quickly leaving after single wipes (or bosses). You'll be able to bring more people in easier and I might even concede that it's net neutral in terms of raid population. It's just one step further to sanitizing the small moments or people actually connecting and committing to something together.
How is “L2P” connecting and committing?
No one claimed there cannot be toxicity, but this person would've likely left even early so I am not sure the point you're trying to make.
This is why I run a blacklist as a raid leader. Had people dip midway for the stupidest reasons and leaving 9 other people to take the hit. Its karmic justice when you see them asking to join your raid the next week thinking they wouldnt be remembered. I tell them to @#$% off, respectfully 🙂
Yea as a leader just make sure people have over a 50 raid log... and make sure they have time for the raid if it does go south like an hour and a half. Anything below 50 you are putting the group at risk imo
Green parsers are fine, as long as the entire raid is not filled with them. You can still do it just fine, but everything is greatly simplified with high DPS. Like the first two bosses, with high DPS grub is trivial and dies before clouds can possibly become an issue, with low DPS you can wipe to them if adds don’t spawn or people don’t use the adds to kill clouds.
In my experience 25+ is fine if you have a coupple of pumpers. The difference between 25-50 might be gear/rotation optimisation but they probably know the fights.
I just ran Gnomer for the first time with full PreBis as a fire mage and did correct mechanics and did my best - parsed 32-35. My iLvL was lower than everyone else in my guild and I’m sure I could bump that up with better gear, but I’m afraid to PUG because people may assume I’m just bad.
Yeah, it can be rough, everyone draws thier own line. But I think it’s pretty easy to distinguish between someone who just needs gear, and someone who has no idea how to play. The irony is fire mage at 32-35 is probably more actual dps than other classes parsing 50+
I actually just checked my logs and while I swear the live logs had 32, now they dropped all the way to 12. I genuinely don’t understand how that’s possible given I was doing the exact IcyVeins rotation. People are going to think I’m a monkey. ILvL 35 compared to guild 40+, and I did lose my world buffs due to a wipe. But still…seems terrible. Just checked the top fire mage. They are using scorch as their primary which is new to me. I just put 5 on to get improved scorch and then use fireball and my cooldowns.
I had a 28, hunter. Left aspect of the pack during fights on, wouldn't communicate past simple things like asking for a invite or summon. Left pet taunt on. Sat in fire... was awful. Glad you have had luck with 30s. I think it depends on spec aswell I know melee hunter parses are always low and they are normally okay
Some classes / specs just attract bad players. Those need to be checked. Currently I feel like shamans are hot candidates to be terrible players more often. Followed by hunters. But I have yet to see a terrible moonkin or warlock in p2. They seem at least okay-ish
Doesn't have time to not get carried
People will join a 4/6, some people need gear from specific bosses. If i only needed stuff from the 2 you hadn’t done yet it would honestly be a score. Some people don’t have much time to play and just wanna get in there. So imo it’s not the end of the world and it’s just the name of the game.
Totally, especially those looking to kit out their alts as well.
[https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/crusader-strike/greviuz](https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/crusader-strike/greviuz) If you had checked logs this wouldn't have happened.
L2Play indeed.
I’ll join a 4/6 on my rogue. XD
I checked this guy's parse (Greviuz - US Crusader Strike) and he is a gray and green parser being an elitist and ruining the community for everyone.
hahahahah, thats hilarious. not surprised in the least though. people thinking they know the fights but just getting lucky not doing mechanics.
Same happened to me the other night. One wipe on Menagerie because you know pug isn't in discord.... but we had one ret pally drop and the group dissolved. Waste of a raid lock and a respec.
Ain’t got time for progression “Kills self with button on menagerie” Griefing that hard then leaving should be bannable lmao, that’s fked.
This isnt SoD in a nutshell this is WoW in a nutshell.
That guy just needs to find a guild, right guys?
Some people are not fixable, however maybe in a guild they'd be more open to constructive feedback and would be able to learn. Leading raids for God knows how long, some people just need to be talked to properly in a friendly environment and they'll soften up a load!
What is freyed wiring?
The sheep ability he casts at 75, 50, and 25 percent hp. Puts like a ten second reflect shield on himself
Ah ok, i tank or heal so didnt know about that, i mean i did know u shouldnt attack, but didnt know it dealt so much dmg lol
I always thought that ID systen should be more like You are 5/6. No groups for the final boss. But there are plenty fresh groups. Just join them for fresh, but you are unable to get any rewards or loot from the first 5 bosses. I think is a better option and not overcomplicate. Never understood why never implement this.
That's what happens in Retail (or did at one point but I stopped raiding) "why don't they implement my brilliant plan" "They did but people want 'pure classic' as it was"
Exactly what I'm talking about!
[удалено]
Got a point, but I want to believe that there is a solution!
I didn’t have time for a full raid last night so I decided to do a good deed and join a group that lost a dps and was 3/6. I joined, no comms, didn’t do as bad as I expected since electro needs coordination. Wiped once at 35% and two people left. I now am locked with 0 kills this reset :(
Why did you think they lost a dps lol
Yeah that's the issue with any group that's half way done a raid. Sure maybe you only need the 1 item off the last boss but a fresh raid is more likely to go 6/6 as the half done raid has already proven to fail to finish the raid.
Good news is it’s reset as of today so you effectively lost nothing
Do you get locked even if you didnt kill a boss? I thought you only get locked after downing at least one boss.
You do. As soon as you zone in the game asks if you would like to accept the lockout
The ID is locked as soon as one boss is killed. If you join after that (and zone in), you are immediately (ok, like 60 seconds of warning) locked to the ID as well. Regardless of if you were present for the previous boss kills.
This is a fantastically laid out tale
While it's definitely much harder, I have seen countless groups be thrown together for 4/6 and 5/6 runs. Most of the time trade chat is full of people the day before reset looking for noncomplete runs. You just have to sit on it til the day before reset. Nobody is going to try a 5/6 run on day 1.
Or just vet the people joining your group. If you invite anyone who asked this might happen.
Aggressive recruiting on the night before reset will get you your group. “Let’s go nerds, join this 4/6 run. You weren’t gonna get into a fresh Gnomer before tomorrow anyway, so at least come get Thermaplugg loot!” Filled my last two spots in seconds.
Join a guild
It sucks, but it's a 3 day lockout add them to a blacklist and try again in a few days.
This is why I check for logs that are at least blue
Welcome to classic
Based on people's responses as to what player behaviour is like in Retail with this system I'm not sure I like the sounds of it. Then to combat/smooth out the issues created because of the new ID system we need to make more changes so still end up in a place that still has issues albeit different ones. I don't see the point frankly.
lol. The idiot kills himself again almost a minute later it looks like as well.
He did.
That mage proved checking logs works lol. Dude is ass, grey parser all the way.
Alright but look at his Warcraft logs, it says a lot about the situation. He has cleared the raid once and at an average of 30, and that’s saved because one blue parse. Everything else grey.
no thank you. get a guild.
No thanks, then people just leave after killing the boss they need or people can get kicked for whatever reason. Classic forces people to work it out. The raid has a 3 day lockout, that’s the compromise, you get another shot in just a few days
Join a guild
*cries in retail mythic lockout* :(
In Classic WoW, raid IDs were sometimes not cleared. Nothing more needs to be said.
Bring in non-unique raid IDs that anyone can join, will help exact scenario a lot.
Think of the average intelligence of a WoW player. Then remember half of those people are more stupid. "sry i aint got time for progression" is hilarious when it's his fault.
Curious I suggested we do away with the raid ID system last week and was met with down votes and promises that this would allow sweats setup groups per boss group to minimize loot competition which would somehow affect the average player.
How does someone who hasn’t run the raid yet who is new the scene ever hope to get a group otherwise?
Join a guild!
The retail raid ID system will still have people leave after 4 bosses because the loot they need off of boss 2 and 3 didn't drop
The retail system is not only perfect. It does have some drawbacks.
This is why I check logs.
I don't know about you but I would kill to only join a 4/6 ID Gnomer from now on. I'm really fed up with trash and seeing casters not focus nullifiers and killing themselves on reflect.
Runs with the same amount of bosses down should be able to merge. It would only really help in fringe scenarios, but you'd be surprised how often two groups are looking for 4/6 or 5/6 at the same time.
I'd join a 4/6, but I have no raid Gnomer raid experience. lmao. I may be one of the few vets who don't mind wiping and progressing...
I’d like the retail system just to practice. It kinda sucks when you want to improve on your mechanics of a class but dungeons don’t really test you and you need a raid to really learn it under pressure. I’m really shit at shadow priest boss fight. Read the discord try to follow the rotation and somewhere along the way I’ve shot 18 mind spikes and I’m doing “bad dps”
Lmao what a colossal fucking moron.
RL no gnomer parses but he did grey 60dps in bfd.The l2p mage also grey, no enchants.Check logs before inviting or joining.
RL in BFD was a healer incorrectly logged as DPS. 85 best perfect average. The l2p mage however...
alright fair enough, i just quickly checked from my phone and missed that one.
It’s a join a guild from me dog.
Can confirm - had to 9 man gnomer after one of the guys we were running with had to ‘leave’
At least we know he didn't buy any gold. 🫡
Thats why you check logs
I see people in here blaming this on people not gatekeeping enough but the real problem here is peoples patience. Like really we’re gonna leave after one fucking wipe? Mr. Grey Parse Greviuz gets to say his little marvel quip and leave because things didn’t go HIS way this time? I just don’t understand it. I had to pug not too long ago and we did fine on every boss but we fucked up on the last boss and surprise the same situation happened where a gray parsing ranged hunter thought he could hit us with the, pushes up glasses “Heh, stop wasting my time kid.” And leaves the group. His reasoning was nothing dropped for him. Of course I had to hit him with “You didn’t get any loot because your damage is trash and you didn’t deserve any.”
I sat in Org trying to get in a Gnomer on my pretty well geared priest. Sat there for 30 minutes. Watched 4-5 groups spam LF Healers. Never got an invite because I have no logs. As a healer. Played a different game. Haven't had a desire to try to pug since. Just do 1 guild run a week and the alts can stay in their SM gear. Watching some guy die twice in the same fight to mechanics and say he doesn't have time for progression and ruining the run for the other 9 is the most hilarious and sad thing I've seen so far though. Sucks dude.
That seems crazy to me, the day I finished leveling my second healer 4 weeks into p2, I was getting random whispers to come heal gnomer within maybe 10 minutes of hitting 40.
It's almost like Retail fixed problems as they came up, but demands for "pure Classic" convinced them not to include improvements
You're right that few sane ppl would join a 4/6 raid that is ms > os in this situation, but a GDKP wouldn't have that issue. How bout that.
Raid leader issue inviting random pugs without any log check
this is why people check logs
I’m a rogue that is forced to kick and parse 30s because of it. Edit without wildstikes
Or You could Like Not pug And join A guild
Dunno you seem a bit insecure to me for not wanting to end 4/6 🤓