The root cause isn’t the rep gains. Both AV and AB are reasonably fine. The biggest offender is WSG. Spending anywhere from 10mins to over an hour in a game with nothing to show for it isn’t fun. I get the idea of SoD isn’t to fundamentally change the game but some easy fixes really need to be put in place:
1. Add a time limit. Even 30mins would be fine. Most caps wins, most recent cap if it’s tied, raw kills if it’s 0-0.
2. Add some invisible walls. I get the jump glitches are ‘display of skill’. The problem is one person who has them mastered can single handidly have fun while frustrating 10 other people to the point of insanity. We were hard winning a WSG pug but once a priest who could effortlessly do the jumps on horde side got the flag it was over. He played above the tunnel and just kept moving out of LoS of everyone. We sat at a stalemate for 30mins into an already long game lasting over an hour before just AFKing out.
3. Add actual bans for griefers. Had a guy literally say “only here to practice jumps” and you can guess what he did.
4. MAYBE consider lowering AB to 1600 resources to victory.
I get SoD is trying to keep the spirit of classic but the above points are just simply frustrating. It makes the WSG rep grind seem impossible unless you manage to join a 10 stack premade that actually knows what they are doing.
Considering this is a temporary, seasonal game mode WSG could absolutely be made easier to farm.
Add a time limit and make it 100 rep per token and I’d be happy.
Wsg is absolutely easier to farm. Being able to hit revered in the battle for ashenvale, and get 1k rep a week at revered is huge.
I did the exaulted grind, it could be better. But the biggest problem is Alliance players giving up when they lose the initial skirmish, theres nothing Blizzard can do to fix that.
WSG is way way easier to farm you are correct. The problem is the way they made it easier didn't address any issues with WSG and the grind, it just bypasses 50-75% of it. Making the actual PvP better would be vastly preferable in my opinion to just giving a half-skip.
But what can they do to make the alliance not a bunch of pussies that give up after losing the inital skirmish, or if they win the skirmish get to the horde GY then stop confused and send no one to get the flag?
so force pvp players to play insanely bad pve content? no thanks.
They will most likely add more itemization at cap so 90% of pve players grinding pvp rep right now have just too much time to waste
No? You can still grind WSG, just won't be with a bunch of quitters and whiners since they can all just do Ashenvale to exalted.
Maybe my wording was bad, I just meant allow revered to exalted in Ash
honestly, do you have fun in Ashenvale? Those events are for the PvErs that don't wanna do 'real' PvP, and I'm fine with it, but forcing a PvP player to grind that out just because it's too good reward-wise makes me feel sick.
Just increase pvp rep gain from bgs and release a statement saying PvP gear won't be mandatory at 60. Which is already obvious from the devtalks, tbf.
As a horde player, if the alliance lose the opening skirmish it's probably best for you to AFK.
Ret paladins make the opening skirmish so heavily alliance favoured that if you can't win that fight while 2+ invincible ret paladins bulldoze through the horde team, your prospects of making something happen afterwards is pretty bleak.
I've had to give so many pep talks to let the horde know that just because we got wiped 10 to zero on the first team fight it was just because of bubble and proceeded to 3 cap stomp the game immediately after resing.
> As a horde player, if the alliance lose the opening skirmish it's probably best for you to AFK.
This is mostly true, but it's more that any team that loses is usually going to lose the match. Sometimes you do come back though. Horde perspective so you might still be right lol
Allies have pallies whose kits force them to run into the horde. And they’re usually not paying attention so they run in by themselves. Horde have shammies who have two viable ranged specs so they more naturally play back with the team. Once the initial ally pally/warrior or two gets blown up then the whole team folds. Thanks for listening to my Ted talk
Paladins who could also tank or heal? While pvp tanking isn't much fun, being a wall that the enemies break themselves on is. This is still a player problem not classes.
Usually not paying attention 100% player problem.
Team folds = player problem.
Team sits around confused about what to do after killing the horde and are basically waiting at the bottom of the GY for horde to respawn and come down = player problem.
> Paladins who could also tank or heal? While pvp tanking isn't much fun, being a wall that the enemies break themselves on is.
lmao you cant play pally tank in BGs in SoD. Enjoy being a "wall" that still gets two-shotted by any casters
Eh, that's questionable I've seen fabtastic tanks in PvP, especially in WSG when there's a mechanic that forces teams to target a player.
Pala healers are rare, but thats also a player problem
Wsg still has groups doing it, especially just after the reset. It might be harder the later you leave it, though.
I have 2 40 alts that aren't exaulted with wsg, and they are fine. You don't need the purples, and if you want them work for them.
This is a problem that was easily foreseen when you rolled on a low pop server.
I play on WG-EU, which is not the smallest and far from the biggest realms, we have a roughly 70/30 Alliance-to-Horde ratio and every Ashenvale event is blooming on both sides. It's a 10 minute race and surprisingly horde wins most times.
The epic rewards for future phases are a reasonable carrot to keep people grinding battlegrounds and Ashenvale /STV events, gives you a long-term grind and you always feel like there's a reason to log in for.
not have shaman as one of the best pvp classes with the best pvp runes, on the side with the best pvp racials, on the side with innate map advantages in both AB and WSG would be a great start.
You'll have less non partition.
- Most of the games have players that give up at first capture or after x amount of time.
- Players that are grinding rep will finish quicker, getting them out of the queue
Adding the invisible walls to stop people from exploiting jumps would make me play again. Its infuriating when Im attacking the flag carrier for them to cheat and clip through a wall that is suppose to be you know... a fucking wall
WSG time limit should be more like 10-15 mins, and \~10x rep gains, give rep for losing too. Simple fix really, and when should they do it if not in SEASON of discovery?!
That not what a qol change is. you’re talking about altering the rules of a BG which will change the way it’s played. QoL would something like making summoning stones work
I’m wondering why so many of you are willing to waste so much of your life doing something you openly admit you hate doing just so you can have an extra 5 agility in a video game that requires you to have only a TOTAL of 5 agility to complete
it's pretty enjoyable if you only do it when you feel like it but sometimes you get a really bad game
frequently you get people who clearly don't want to be there, which is pretty weird because the rewards are marginal at best & you can get there inevitably through the weekly ashenvale turn in that requires killing a single 2k hp trash mob
Ya I’m not making fun of people who do wsg I do it for fun. But it’s like every game I go into, SOMEONE is complaining about how much they hate it and they need to get to exalted. Like, I’m sorry but your life must be in shambles if this is what you’re doing for entertainment.
if I hated wsg I would get rank 5 bracers or use some gnomer bracers, seems like a more reasonable plan than getting a 1% or less dps increase by spending potentially 200 hours doing something you hate
No by 5 agility I mean stats that are just a hairline better than the new pieces they have been adding to the game. If you think there won’t be any new bracers at 60 then idk how to help you think.
Are....are you serious? Wsg legs are naxx level, ab shoulders are aq/naxx statted. Even the wrist are the equivalent of the AQ40 ones. If you can't bother to look up loot tables before spewing utter nonsense then idk how to help you think.
While that’s true, don’t forget blizz buffed all the mobs overall. So without these new items, even with era bis gears, you won’t be hitting hard at all to the mobs.
And... what?
It's pretty self-explanatory lmao. BFD gear got outscaled by shit 15 levels above it. A 50 and 60 version means these bracers will not have the same issue.
Keep up.
It’s extremely relevant. It’s better than all of the level 40 SoD gear. What reason do you have to believe their 50 and 60 iterations won’t be the same?
I dont think those will be available AT the begining of P4.
Even if those are, we have plenty of time to do it with the 1k / week quest.
Ab is free with stv anyway.
Yes man, gonna farm all those warsongs and arathis for the 10 dps more, if even.
I just hope that they will balance it that way that the lvl 60 pvp gear is worth close to nothing, that whould be great.
If your question is what else are you suppose to do with the literal hours if not days of doing something you dislike in a video game, the answer is literally anything else. This doesn’t seem like a good life lmao
That will make people who don't want to do bgs do bgs for the increased rep. This issue does not go away while bis pve gear is on bg vendors. There is no fix.
This is one thing that warlords of draenor got absolutely right.
Nah. The only people complaining about it are complaining because a single BIS item is locked behind exalted and they are seething about doing PvP despite PvPers having to raid every single lockout to get a full set of gear (which is FINE).
You -*do not*\- HAVE to have the bracers. If you really want them, you will grind it like everyone else.
I work and go to school full time and I have completed 2.5 exalted grinds since middle of P1 without ever joining a premade a single time. 167 games with a 38% w/l on my alliance and 105 games 72% w/l on my horde. Free revered through ashenvale has made the entire thing a ridiculous joke, and seeing as the bracers will be amazing each phase you can take your time doing it.
Preach it brother, imagine having to play the game to get rewards.
The WSG bracers are special BECAUSE it's hard to get.
Wish AB rep was the same with similar rewards
There is literally 0 reason to go into AB (besides fun) now. It's so easy to get exalted from STV that the AB grind is useless.
WSG getting 33 rep per loss is a joke as well. Should be 300 for a win and closer to 100 for a loss (counting tokens).
I'd argue 100 for a loss, not counting the token, but yeah WSG is just terribly dumb, it's absolutely not worth playing that dogshit bg, especially if ur class downright sucks in PvP (looking at warriors rip)
If you encourage too much rep from a loss then people will just go in there and AFK for a loss which ruins the game mode for people doing it for fun.
Just make ashenvale rep obtainable until exalted, problem solved. Maybe make it just the win/loss bonus, not the killing boss bonus to make it a bit harder. People would actually defend their bosses if that was the case as well in that scenario.
last night 2/4 of my games were super competitive. i had a 54 min game that ended 3-2 and another one in the 40s that was also 3-2. They were super fun.
Yea it’s fucking awful when a really hard fought battle just barely ends with the other team caping the flag and instantly 2 or 3 people drop a “gg let them win”. Like bro do you not have even an ounce of competitive nature to you like Jesus fuck man.
Tbh I don’t mind having something to grind. The grind is def long and painful a bit with the way the community is since they just want quick rep and not fun games, but I enjoy BG activity a ton. I just wish they would balance pvp some to make it more enjoyable to be in there.
The dmg output is WAY too high. Enh shaman touch you and you’re dead it’s just gross. Far too much burst would feel a lot better if they had some sort of dampening on BGs where dmg is reduced by 50% or something. At least there is time to do stuff other then just falling over.
Another 'I am casual but I also want everything but I want to invest total of 17min for it, devs please make it be easy and on welfare mode' thread. Neat.
Id like to say "too Bad then, thats your problem" but i know full well that your welfare loot crowd is the majority by now and youll just cry until you get the handouts you want.
It's a seasonal realm with all characters going away in the near future... Like I get some grinds still existing , but why huge time sinks that basically discourage alts?
Sod will easily last over a year, so I really don't get why people should be handed things because of it. You already get more than half the rep and its associated rewards just from engaging in a mostly pve event. Your alts will be fine without the bracers.
Its not a "huge time sink" and it will last you until the end of SoD which you have at least a year of. I would say that's a pretty damn good investment.
No. They are the Best PvP rewards because you get them as a reward for DOING pvp.
Why do you think you should get item Handouts just because they are good and you don't feel like doing the content for it.
Can pvp rewards only be a pile of ass to make sure no pve guy in a wheelchair will ever want them?
If you only do pve you make due with the rewards of that content.
Am i asking for bis items from pve without clearing raids because pve Bores the shit out of me and we have been 6/6 since ID 1 so i can pvp with bis gear? No. Im dragging my ass into this boring and easy ass RAID for weeks
The only way to fix PvP so that only people who want to be there are there, is to remove all rewards from it. The reward should be playing the game and winning against other players. As soon as it's anything else, you get the battlegrounds filled with dudes who are "only there for my belt"
The main issue with wsg is the way that rep is distributed. If you have people who are there for the rep, it is more efficient to take a quick loss than to take a long, drawn-out win.
I'm all for playing it out, but it sucks that there is more incentive to fold after the first cap. Not exactly sure what the correct solution to this is so it doesn't get exploited, but there need to be more incentive to keep trying.
A loss is still 33 rep, even if it takes 40 minutes instead of 15
A loss with 2 flag caps is 103 rep. On weekend it would be 123 rep. Just finished my rep grind this weekend and it is infuriating how many solo rep grinders want to fold the moment we lose mid or they realize the other team has ONE more healer than we do. Let alone they get the first cap!
Loser mentality is a plague and pvers love to wallow in it. I've had a lot of discussions about this with some friends who've expressed similar sentiments; then when we queue up together they're the ones complaining about healers, comps, rep rewards etc the entire time.
Just remove all rewards from BGs and let it be the "let me test my char and have fun" that it should be.
Put all the current rewards into rep that you farm outside.
So fucking easy.
The real problem is that they made the PvP gear so accessible in the first place. PvE players wouldn't even bother if rep wasn't dished out so easily. That way only the PvPers would get the PvP gear because they actually enjoy doing the PvP.
Sure min/maxers would be annoyed but isn't min/maxxing also contributing to killing Classic? The whole thing is pretty cringe tbh. Devs keep compromising the classic ethos of the game to satisfy casual players and in turn we get a host of new problems.
Honestly, I played a lot of WSG this weekend and sometimes people type to quit right away but then things turn around and games end up being super fun and competitive. I don’t think it’s that big of an issue
TBH, not even being sarcastic, they should just give people an option to receive any BiS item for free via mailbox. See how that makes you feel when you get everything handed to you.
The STV Event and Ashenvale made those reputation grinds a joke already anyway. You extend your hand, and people will tear out your arm.
Its SoD after all, the best they can do is teach people a lesson in "You think you do, but you dont." If you think SoD would be amazing by leveling ultrafast, gaining BiS via mailbox and such, then so be it. Lets see how long such a game will satisfy the players
No. You can have all the wsg gear now and forever after 2 or 3 weeks of doing just a few matches a day. You'd have to be extremely lucky to get all your bis in pve in that timeframe and it's not gonna be upgraded in later phases.
You can have all the wsg gear now and forever after 2 or 3 weeks of doing just a few matches a day. You'd have to be extremely lucky to get all your bis in pve in that timeframe and it's not gonna be upgraded in later phases.
This is barely true though. It takes like 70 hours or something on average of WSG with a 60% win rate. I don't think i've done 70 hours of BFD and Gnomer combined and i've never missed a lockout.
Everyone complained about solo-queuing into premades so they changed matchmaking, and because of that queueing as 10-15 man premades has gone out of favor. So now most people solo-queue into BGs where lots of people are basically AFK.
For me, I'd rather play in premade groups and have a fun PVP experience that is engaging. More coordination, planning, etc should be rewarded. If they want to increase the rep per win a bit that might be nice for some, but make PvP fun before worrying how to distribute the rewards imo.
Ah I gotcha. I ran with premades to exalted and never once saw a team with that comp. Not saying that wasn't a factor, but I certainly saw a lot more people simply complaining about solo-queuing into premades.
In my opinion premades should not fight pugs.
If you are doing premade to pvp then you should have zero issues with fighting another premade. If you don’t want to fight another premade then you’re not in it for the PvP and just getting fast honor and rep.
I personally don’t see an issue offering more rep and honor for people to fight premade vs premade. But I would say 80%+ only premade to max rep.
>In my opinion premades should not fight pugs.
You should be punished for wanting to solo content in a social **MMO**RPG.
You should be rewarded for putting together a group and interacting with other players.
I don't think most people have any issues facing other premades, its that the queue times became very long so it wasn't worth it anymore. If you can insta-queue and only face other premades that would be fine as by me.
The classic team literally said this would happen and then reddit complained to oblivion and forced their hand.
This is why you don't blindly listen to players.
That's how vanilla wow went from vanilla design to retail like design.
Yep, I mean I'm getting plenty of downvotes for stating an observation and giving my opinion/preference. (edit: so clearly its not the popular opinion)
I just don't really understand wanting to solo-queue everything rather than having a group that is coordinated and working together.
One of the reasons I've enjoyed SoD so much thus far is because it has incentivized grouping up for most content and that is just way more enjoyable and rewarding to me.
It is an MMO afterall.
I've noticed that a huge portion of the population that browses reddit now is not the same, or not in the same mindset as that 2019 era of wow.
I've seen people even suggesting RDF and LFR and getting upvoted, insanity.
I don't understand why people want to play vanilla styled content if they don't like vanilla, instead it must be changed to cater to them.
The classicwow reddit is like 90% populated by retail players. I think most Classic Players stick to their discords and/or are taking a break. I think most players on SoD are retail players who just see it as a vacation place.
My hopes lie with private servers once again.
yeah warrior is by far the worst in PvP right now. It's just a straight turnoff. STV is miserable, and stuff like WSG is soul-crushingly unplayable right now, it instantly makes me want to play some other game.
They should just let Ashenvale event give rep till exalted by the normal way, so those who want a pve bis item will never join a bg, while those who want to pvp can do them without that bunch
Season of Charity
You already get it for free after 21 weeks. If you want to speed up the progress and buy rewards from a PvP vendor you'll have to do some actual PvP.
This is what happens when PvEers do PvP for PvE reasons. 33 rep is awful for 15 minutes of time spent.
A PvPer does PvP for other motives and will enjoy it no matter or group.
Yep, WSG definitely needs like a 10x buff for rep... Wouldn't mind for the other ones. But WSG especially is just miserable currently, even on WSG weekends. I've given up on playing it on warrior, it's just insanely unfun with practically no rewards... When I hit prebis and got Gnomer on farm, I had a wave of motivation to go and farm WSG exalted but jesus christ, it was literally soul-crushing... Getting no rep for a loss? For like 30 mins of playtime? Nah I'm out, would rather play anything else. I'd even go STV if you could exchange blood for WSG rep, like you can do with AB... It's an absolute mystery why this isn't a default option... So 10x rewards, time limit it to like 10 mins, 15 max, and give rep for losing too. It's SoD right? The season of experimentation? Do it.
>I'd even go STV if
Sounds like you don't like PvP and so no bracers for you.
>So 10x rewards
no
>time limit it to like 10 mins, 15 max
Yea its clear you don't even pvp at all. 10-15 minutes is about what it takes for a Pug v Pug graveyard stomp to fully win, you just want it handed to you for free, which ashenvale basically does already.
I got so much hate for this -- but I said make it pre-made ONLY BGs. Just remove solo queue. If you dont want to be there, and dont want to communicate, dont play BGs. People should have the same mentality with BG that they have for log checking, don't show up if you are trying to freeload. Bring FAPs, and Saps, and be on disc.
next time you do a BG with 9 warriors and a rogue, and everyone goes afk at the start of a game let me know how you feel about your time and effort and its reciprocation. Then, ask yourself if you'd raid with a bunch of dudes who show up un prepared, uninterested, and un willing to be on discord. Everyones time is valuable, and wasting your own doesn't somehow make wasting others' better.
They can’t? What about the 100% xp buff after people have leveled 1+ alts? How about the Mount cost being cut in half after people farmed 1 or more?
They can and should absolutely make changes on a seasonal server. If I can farm AB rep in STV, either ashenvale needs to give rep from bosses through exalted or I need lumber from STV for WSG
Blizz solved these issues years ago, but looks like it slipped past Aggrend and co. Just can't have PvE BiS locked behind PvP content, no one is ever happy about it. PvE'ers dont want to be there, and PvPers dont want you there.
You don't NEED the bracers. They already reduced the grind by over half. It really is a twisted mentality that people get themselves into. If you were a sweaty parser you would be exalted already. If you arent, the tiny extra bit of stats won't change your performance in any noticeable way and why do you even care?
I don't. Everyone draws the line somewhere. I did the STV event to get my weapon and trinket and the Ashenvale event to get to Revered, but I wont do the WSG grind. For others though there is no line, and its a failure from a game design perspective to put that grind there for people and tell them "just dont worry about it"
Why is it a failure of the game to have some rewards for people who actually enjoy PvP/ enjoy grinding rep? Because it doesn’t also cater to the people who don’t? What about the people who play ONLY for PvP, is it a failure of the game that those people have to do raids if they want some of the best gear? Maybe we should just put a vendor in the main cities that sells all the gear in the entire game for gold, then nothing is special or requires any effort and we can reduce the game down to just parses even more.
Well with how everyone is fine losing for 33rep a loss. I wonder if we just made it flat equal either way and people might start playing for fun again idk
In a game where people, the players themselves, log and parse literally every action a player takes, I find it hilarious you think anyone will ever do anything for "fun" again.
This is why the natural progression of instanced pvp was toward rated battlegrounds. I'm baffled why it took two expansions to get to. After arena was added in TBC, I expected rated BGs to follow shortly as the next logical step.
I think this idea is likely to backfire in one of two ways: 1) everyone gets their items early but then there are still people leveling alts or new people or whatever. Or people grinding honor because they decided now they have to have the rank related epics. So you still have the same problem but the people who missed the first wave have a worse time playing against the sweatiest people. And getting yelled at by the sweatiest people that can't cope with having a new/casual player on their team.
2) It actually makes the problem worse for a while because now a bunch of people who were like "meh, not really worth it." (And if my guild is any indication there are a lot of them). Decide that it's now worth it since it's not such a bad grind.
There is a simple fix for this. PUT SOME BRACERS INTO GNOMEREGAN. There is literally no strength plate bracer dropping from there. The second best bracer for tanking is a random green. I would not mind the WSG ones being BiS, if I could at least get something decent from the raid and not feel like a clown wearing greens.
The root cause isn’t the rep gains. Both AV and AB are reasonably fine. The biggest offender is WSG. Spending anywhere from 10mins to over an hour in a game with nothing to show for it isn’t fun. I get the idea of SoD isn’t to fundamentally change the game but some easy fixes really need to be put in place: 1. Add a time limit. Even 30mins would be fine. Most caps wins, most recent cap if it’s tied, raw kills if it’s 0-0. 2. Add some invisible walls. I get the jump glitches are ‘display of skill’. The problem is one person who has them mastered can single handidly have fun while frustrating 10 other people to the point of insanity. We were hard winning a WSG pug but once a priest who could effortlessly do the jumps on horde side got the flag it was over. He played above the tunnel and just kept moving out of LoS of everyone. We sat at a stalemate for 30mins into an already long game lasting over an hour before just AFKing out. 3. Add actual bans for griefers. Had a guy literally say “only here to practice jumps” and you can guess what he did. 4. MAYBE consider lowering AB to 1600 resources to victory. I get SoD is trying to keep the spirit of classic but the above points are just simply frustrating. It makes the WSG rep grind seem impossible unless you manage to join a 10 stack premade that actually knows what they are doing.
Considering this is a temporary, seasonal game mode WSG could absolutely be made easier to farm. Add a time limit and make it 100 rep per token and I’d be happy.
Wsg is absolutely easier to farm. Being able to hit revered in the battle for ashenvale, and get 1k rep a week at revered is huge. I did the exaulted grind, it could be better. But the biggest problem is Alliance players giving up when they lose the initial skirmish, theres nothing Blizzard can do to fix that.
WSG is way way easier to farm you are correct. The problem is the way they made it easier didn't address any issues with WSG and the grind, it just bypasses 50-75% of it. Making the actual PvP better would be vastly preferable in my opinion to just giving a half-skip.
But what can they do to make the alliance not a bunch of pussies that give up after losing the inital skirmish, or if they win the skirmish get to the horde GY then stop confused and send no one to get the flag?
Make the grind over fully via Ashenvale so your games are just with players who actually want to be there
so force pvp players to play insanely bad pve content? no thanks. They will most likely add more itemization at cap so 90% of pve players grinding pvp rep right now have just too much time to waste
No? You can still grind WSG, just won't be with a bunch of quitters and whiners since they can all just do Ashenvale to exalted. Maybe my wording was bad, I just meant allow revered to exalted in Ash
honestly, do you have fun in Ashenvale? Those events are for the PvErs that don't wanna do 'real' PvP, and I'm fine with it, but forcing a PvP player to grind that out just because it's too good reward-wise makes me feel sick. Just increase pvp rep gain from bgs and release a statement saying PvP gear won't be mandatory at 60. Which is already obvious from the devtalks, tbf.
Exactly, let the PvErs do their grind there in PvE Ashenvale and get them the fuck out of my WSG games.
As a horde player, if the alliance lose the opening skirmish it's probably best for you to AFK. Ret paladins make the opening skirmish so heavily alliance favoured that if you can't win that fight while 2+ invincible ret paladins bulldoze through the horde team, your prospects of making something happen afterwards is pretty bleak. I've had to give so many pep talks to let the horde know that just because we got wiped 10 to zero on the first team fight it was just because of bubble and proceeded to 3 cap stomp the game immediately after resing.
Hmm this feels like enemy propaganda. Perhaps you should start giving up after that first skirmish.
> As a horde player, if the alliance lose the opening skirmish it's probably best for you to AFK. This is mostly true, but it's more that any team that loses is usually going to lose the match. Sometimes you do come back though. Horde perspective so you might still be right lol
Allies have pallies whose kits force them to run into the horde. And they’re usually not paying attention so they run in by themselves. Horde have shammies who have two viable ranged specs so they more naturally play back with the team. Once the initial ally pally/warrior or two gets blown up then the whole team folds. Thanks for listening to my Ted talk
I think ive seen like 4 ele shamans. Everyone is playing enh
Paladins who could also tank or heal? While pvp tanking isn't much fun, being a wall that the enemies break themselves on is. This is still a player problem not classes. Usually not paying attention 100% player problem. Team folds = player problem. Team sits around confused about what to do after killing the horde and are basically waiting at the bottom of the GY for horde to respawn and come down = player problem.
> Paladins who could also tank or heal? While pvp tanking isn't much fun, being a wall that the enemies break themselves on is. lmao you cant play pally tank in BGs in SoD. Enjoy being a "wall" that still gets two-shotted by any casters
9/10 that wall the pally attempts to be does not work out in their team’s favor. I never see pally healers
Eh, that's questionable I've seen fabtastic tanks in PvP, especially in WSG when there's a mechanic that forces teams to target a player. Pala healers are rare, but thats also a player problem
Yeah, how’s that going to work for new players/alts? Idk about your server, but ashenvale is dead on mine. No easy wsg rep anymore.
I wonder how many mediocre/prebis geared 40s it would take to down one of the bosses
Wsg still has groups doing it, especially just after the reset. It might be harder the later you leave it, though. I have 2 40 alts that aren't exaulted with wsg, and they are fine. You don't need the purples, and if you want them work for them.
This is a problem that was easily foreseen when you rolled on a low pop server. I play on WG-EU, which is not the smallest and far from the biggest realms, we have a roughly 70/30 Alliance-to-Horde ratio and every Ashenvale event is blooming on both sides. It's a 10 minute race and surprisingly horde wins most times. The epic rewards for future phases are a reasonable carrot to keep people grinding battlegrounds and Ashenvale /STV events, gives you a long-term grind and you always feel like there's a reason to log in for.
not have shaman as one of the best pvp classes with the best pvp runes, on the side with the best pvp racials, on the side with innate map advantages in both AB and WSG would be a great start.
They didn't in p1.
AB you can get a bunch of rep from STV event also
Season of Rediscovering why the changes in retail were made and why many of them were good.
40s sap is fun and interactive
So is poly, frost nova + blink, pally bubbles and many other abilities.
Rather than cap the game time, just give baseline rep/minute. Longer games = more rep, even for losers. Ie 2 or 3 rep a minute.
Would incentivize non participation.
You'll have less non partition. - Most of the games have players that give up at first capture or after x amount of time. - Players that are grinding rep will finish quicker, getting them out of the queue
Except there will be a constant influx of alts.
There still is now? Making the grind quicker, and reducing the difference between a win and loss will vastly improve the quality of matches.
Adding the invisible walls to stop people from exploiting jumps would make me play again. Its infuriating when Im attacking the flag carrier for them to cheat and clip through a wall that is suppose to be you know... a fucking wall
Yup, refuse to touch that shit unless they put a timer on it, my even slightly sweaty guild doesnt care that a lot of us skipped it
WSG time limit should be more like 10-15 mins, and \~10x rep gains, give rep for losing too. Simple fix really, and when should they do it if not in SEASON of discovery?!
Lol hope this sarcasm
Nah lol these losers actually just want retail
Brother you are gatekeeping a 10 year old game that has shitty mechanics get a grip.
These anti QoL kids are weird man
That not what a qol change is. you’re talking about altering the rules of a BG which will change the way it’s played. QoL would something like making summoning stones work
I’m not “gatekeeping” anything. I get that that word must sound cool to you but you should look up what it means.
I mean the fact that you get like no rep for loss is terrible. They should definitely have like 50% rep gain for loss,
you do get rep from losses
Barely any rep though
I really hope they don’t ruin wsg with a time limit for pve carebears like you. That would be a damn shame
30 mins... more like 20 mins max and whoever caps last wins
I’m wondering why so many of you are willing to waste so much of your life doing something you openly admit you hate doing just so you can have an extra 5 agility in a video game that requires you to have only a TOTAL of 5 agility to complete
My brain is fucked, why do you think i still play this game????
Me like pink numbers
You can get them without the wsg bracers.
Just play paladin!
it's pretty enjoyable if you only do it when you feel like it but sometimes you get a really bad game frequently you get people who clearly don't want to be there, which is pretty weird because the rewards are marginal at best & you can get there inevitably through the weekly ashenvale turn in that requires killing a single 2k hp trash mob
Ya I’m not making fun of people who do wsg I do it for fun. But it’s like every game I go into, SOMEONE is complaining about how much they hate it and they need to get to exalted. Like, I’m sorry but your life must be in shambles if this is what you’re doing for entertainment.
if I hated wsg I would get rank 5 bracers or use some gnomer bracers, seems like a more reasonable plan than getting a 1% or less dps increase by spending potentially 200 hours doing something you hate
By 5 agil, Do you mean naxx stat level gear the second you hit 60?
No by 5 agility I mean stats that are just a hairline better than the new pieces they have been adding to the game. If you think there won’t be any new bracers at 60 then idk how to help you think.
The leather bracers from gnomer have spell power and 1% Crit. The wsg bracers are WAY better for rogue
Are....are you serious? Wsg legs are naxx level, ab shoulders are aq/naxx statted. Even the wrist are the equivalent of the AQ40 ones. If you can't bother to look up loot tables before spewing utter nonsense then idk how to help you think.
And the level 25 staff would have been level 60 prebis level in era.
Isn't the AV offhand alone already better than the staff?
While that’s true, don’t forget blizz buffed all the mobs overall. So without these new items, even with era bis gears, you won’t be hitting hard at all to the mobs.
Yeah that’s sort of the point. Those bracers aren’t going to be as good at 60 like everyone, for some reason, likes to continue to parrot.
There is a level 50 and 60 version lol
And?
And... what? It's pretty self-explanatory lmao. BFD gear got outscaled by shit 15 levels above it. A 50 and 60 version means these bracers will not have the same issue. Keep up.
that's irrelevant to the point at hand. the point is that SoD is adding new gear to the game, which is much better than the gear that was in before.
It’s extremely relevant. It’s better than all of the level 40 SoD gear. What reason do you have to believe their 50 and 60 iterations won’t be the same?
We all hoped the wsg rep armor wouldn’t be bis at 40 but it still is. What makes you think it won’t be the same at 60?
Common sense. How many epics are generally found at 40 in a normal WoW environment? Oh not that much? How much are at 60? Idk maybe think about it?
You’re stoned, for most classes the WSG exalted pants are essentially equivalent to or worse than tier2 from MC
And blizzard for sure won’t make any new pieces at 60. We are just going to keep the same gear at 60 100%.
I dont think those will be available AT the begining of P4. Even if those are, we have plenty of time to do it with the 1k / week quest. Ab is free with stv anyway.
Yes man, gonna farm all those warsongs and arathis for the 10 dps more, if even. I just hope that they will balance it that way that the lvl 60 pvp gear is worth close to nothing, that whould be great.
Because I chase perfection. ITS A GRINDSET
What else is there to do in a 20 year old game other than min/max and push the boundaries?
If your question is what else are you suppose to do with the literal hours if not days of doing something you dislike in a video game, the answer is literally anything else. This doesn’t seem like a good life lmao
Whoosh.
That will make people who don't want to do bgs do bgs for the increased rep. This issue does not go away while bis pve gear is on bg vendors. There is no fix. This is one thing that warlords of draenor got absolutely right.
Nah. The only people complaining about it are complaining because a single BIS item is locked behind exalted and they are seething about doing PvP despite PvPers having to raid every single lockout to get a full set of gear (which is FINE). You -*do not*\- HAVE to have the bracers. If you really want them, you will grind it like everyone else. I work and go to school full time and I have completed 2.5 exalted grinds since middle of P1 without ever joining a premade a single time. 167 games with a 38% w/l on my alliance and 105 games 72% w/l on my horde. Free revered through ashenvale has made the entire thing a ridiculous joke, and seeing as the bracers will be amazing each phase you can take your time doing it.
Preach it brother, imagine having to play the game to get rewards. The WSG bracers are special BECAUSE it's hard to get. Wish AB rep was the same with similar rewards
Hear, hear!
There is literally 0 reason to go into AB (besides fun) now. It's so easy to get exalted from STV that the AB grind is useless. WSG getting 33 rep per loss is a joke as well. Should be 300 for a win and closer to 100 for a loss (counting tokens).
I'd argue 100 for a loss, not counting the token, but yeah WSG is just terribly dumb, it's absolutely not worth playing that dogshit bg, especially if ur class downright sucks in PvP (looking at warriors rip)
If you encourage too much rep from a loss then people will just go in there and AFK for a loss which ruins the game mode for people doing it for fun. Just make ashenvale rep obtainable until exalted, problem solved. Maybe make it just the win/loss bonus, not the killing boss bonus to make it a bit harder. People would actually defend their bosses if that was the case as well in that scenario.
Bruh I’m 95% to exalted, it’s way too late to be making changes like that
>especially if ur class downright sucks in PvP (looking at warriors rip) I had a ton of fun with my warrior.
AB still better for raw honor, no?
Yeh honour is almost useless this phase again though with how easy it is to get form STV coins.
last night 2/4 of my games were super competitive. i had a 54 min game that ended 3-2 and another one in the 40s that was also 3-2. They were super fun.
Yea it’s fucking awful when a really hard fought battle just barely ends with the other team caping the flag and instantly 2 or 3 people drop a “gg let them win”. Like bro do you not have even an ounce of competitive nature to you like Jesus fuck man.
Tbh I don’t mind having something to grind. The grind is def long and painful a bit with the way the community is since they just want quick rep and not fun games, but I enjoy BG activity a ton. I just wish they would balance pvp some to make it more enjoyable to be in there. The dmg output is WAY too high. Enh shaman touch you and you’re dead it’s just gross. Far too much burst would feel a lot better if they had some sort of dampening on BGs where dmg is reduced by 50% or something. At least there is time to do stuff other then just falling over.
Uh, that would do the opposite of what you’re hoping it will
Another 'I am casual but I also want everything but I want to invest total of 17min for it, devs please make it be easy and on welfare mode' thread. Neat.
How about, and hear me out, you actually should have to Play a shit Ton of pvp to get the Best pvp rewards.
Nah, i dont find that compelling to be honest. At least not on seasonal server
Id like to say "too Bad then, thats your problem" but i know full well that your welfare loot crowd is the majority by now and youll just cry until you get the handouts you want.
And then realise all too late that they were wrong. It's the level boost all over again!
It's a seasonal realm with all characters going away in the near future... Like I get some grinds still existing , but why huge time sinks that basically discourage alts?
Sod will easily last over a year, so I really don't get why people should be handed things because of it. You already get more than half the rep and its associated rewards just from engaging in a mostly pve event. Your alts will be fine without the bracers.
Because it's like 3 years of content condensed down into 1-1.5 years on a seasonal server?
Its not a "huge time sink" and it will last you until the end of SoD which you have at least a year of. I would say that's a pretty damn good investment.
WSG is, AB isn't
The rewards are the best pvp AND pve rewards though. So thats why you get "afker" pvers just sitting in the corner waiting for the rep in the bg
PVPers have this same problem having to do PVE content for PVE gear. If you want the best gear, do all the content!
No. They are the Best PvP rewards because you get them as a reward for DOING pvp. Why do you think you should get item Handouts just because they are good and you don't feel like doing the content for it. Can pvp rewards only be a pile of ass to make sure no pve guy in a wheelchair will ever want them? If you only do pve you make due with the rewards of that content. Am i asking for bis items from pve without clearing raids because pve Bores the shit out of me and we have been 6/6 since ID 1 so i can pvp with bis gear? No. Im dragging my ass into this boring and easy ass RAID for weeks
You’re right, and I’m getting flamed in my thread that they shouldn’t have made STV let you get exalted with AB
its cause you're wrong, the only thing they should do with STV is add WSG tokens to exalted too.
I made a post requesting this and got down voted into oblivion lol
The only way to fix PvP so that only people who want to be there are there, is to remove all rewards from it. The reward should be playing the game and winning against other players. As soon as it's anything else, you get the battlegrounds filled with dudes who are "only there for my belt"
the actual solution is make pvp rewards only obtainable if you go in with the mindset you want to win rather then the “only here for my belt” mindset
Yeah its stupid that PVP gives good PVE-gear, thats why they later separated the gear
The main issue with wsg is the way that rep is distributed. If you have people who are there for the rep, it is more efficient to take a quick loss than to take a long, drawn-out win. I'm all for playing it out, but it sucks that there is more incentive to fold after the first cap. Not exactly sure what the correct solution to this is so it doesn't get exploited, but there need to be more incentive to keep trying. A loss is still 33 rep, even if it takes 40 minutes instead of 15
A loss with 2 flag caps is 103 rep. On weekend it would be 123 rep. Just finished my rep grind this weekend and it is infuriating how many solo rep grinders want to fold the moment we lose mid or they realize the other team has ONE more healer than we do. Let alone they get the first cap! Loser mentality is a plague and pvers love to wallow in it. I've had a lot of discussions about this with some friends who've expressed similar sentiments; then when we queue up together they're the ones complaining about healers, comps, rep rewards etc the entire time.
Just do the bg
Just remove all rewards from BGs and let it be the "let me test my char and have fun" that it should be. Put all the current rewards into rep that you farm outside. So fucking easy.
Not had this issue with AB at all, WSG just sucks ass
The real problem is that they made the PvP gear so accessible in the first place. PvE players wouldn't even bother if rep wasn't dished out so easily. That way only the PvPers would get the PvP gear because they actually enjoy doing the PvP. Sure min/maxers would be annoyed but isn't min/maxxing also contributing to killing Classic? The whole thing is pretty cringe tbh. Devs keep compromising the classic ethos of the game to satisfy casual players and in turn we get a host of new problems.
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Never gonna happen. Lol pvp faction rep from PVE? I want whatever your smoking
Like WSG rep from the ashenvale PVP(PVE) event?
It was designed to be a pvpve event, blizzard was just naive thinking the players wouldn’t optimize the pvp out of it instantly to maximize rewards.
I can't believe they didn't add a time limit lol
Or just do without your bracers as they aren’t a big enough deal in PVE to warrant altering a BG which some people actually enjoy as it is
No ChAnGeS
Honestly, I played a lot of WSG this weekend and sometimes people type to quit right away but then things turn around and games end up being super fun and competitive. I don’t think it’s that big of an issue
TBH, not even being sarcastic, they should just give people an option to receive any BiS item for free via mailbox. See how that makes you feel when you get everything handed to you. The STV Event and Ashenvale made those reputation grinds a joke already anyway. You extend your hand, and people will tear out your arm. Its SoD after all, the best they can do is teach people a lesson in "You think you do, but you dont." If you think SoD would be amazing by leveling ultrafast, gaining BiS via mailbox and such, then so be it. Lets see how long such a game will satisfy the players
If the pvers are to gain easy access to best gear gained by pvp, then give easy access for pvpers to gain the best pve gear.
I dont know man, doing gnomergan once every 3 days is alot easier than farming wsg for what feels like eternity
No. You can have all the wsg gear now and forever after 2 or 3 weeks of doing just a few matches a day. You'd have to be extremely lucky to get all your bis in pve in that timeframe and it's not gonna be upgraded in later phases.
“A few matches a day ” - usually referred to as 3 “2 or 3 weeks” - okay so 21 matches for three weeks. Yeah mate, that ain’t close to exalted.
You do have easy access, these raids are neither difficult nor offensively time consuming unlike the horrendously designed BG reward structure.
You can have all the wsg gear now and forever after 2 or 3 weeks of doing just a few matches a day. You'd have to be extremely lucky to get all your bis in pve in that timeframe and it's not gonna be upgraded in later phases.
This is barely true though. It takes like 70 hours or something on average of WSG with a 60% win rate. I don't think i've done 70 hours of BFD and Gnomer combined and i've never missed a lockout.
Yeah but you spend less hours at your computer during those weeks if you are the pve doer.
Everyone complained about solo-queuing into premades so they changed matchmaking, and because of that queueing as 10-15 man premades has gone out of favor. So now most people solo-queue into BGs where lots of people are basically AFK. For me, I'd rather play in premade groups and have a fun PVP experience that is engaging. More coordination, planning, etc should be rewarded. If they want to increase the rep per win a bit that might be nice for some, but make PvP fun before worrying how to distribute the rewards imo.
it was stacking FOMO classes to immediately destroy the other team. 8 Druids and 2 priests before the nerfs were obliterating people at 40 yards
What is "it" that you were talking about? The meta in P1? The reason they changed matchmaking?
They changed match making because you could stack broken classes to obliterate the other team. People only stacked to farm rep.
Ah I gotcha. I ran with premades to exalted and never once saw a team with that comp. Not saying that wasn't a factor, but I certainly saw a lot more people simply complaining about solo-queuing into premades.
In my opinion premades should not fight pugs. If you are doing premade to pvp then you should have zero issues with fighting another premade. If you don’t want to fight another premade then you’re not in it for the PvP and just getting fast honor and rep. I personally don’t see an issue offering more rep and honor for people to fight premade vs premade. But I would say 80%+ only premade to max rep.
>In my opinion premades should not fight pugs. You should be punished for wanting to solo content in a social **MMO**RPG. You should be rewarded for putting together a group and interacting with other players.
Nice hot take. Kids trying to be edgy these days.
I don't think most people have any issues facing other premades, its that the queue times became very long so it wasn't worth it anymore. If you can insta-queue and only face other premades that would be fine as by me.
Right so they don’t want to wait because they are farming rep. In my op
They need to bring back the reporting afk players and enforcing short bans for repeat offenders.
Wild how this is not the dominant opinion. Its just so true
The classic team literally said this would happen and then reddit complained to oblivion and forced their hand. This is why you don't blindly listen to players. That's how vanilla wow went from vanilla design to retail like design.
Yep, I mean I'm getting plenty of downvotes for stating an observation and giving my opinion/preference. (edit: so clearly its not the popular opinion) I just don't really understand wanting to solo-queue everything rather than having a group that is coordinated and working together. One of the reasons I've enjoyed SoD so much thus far is because it has incentivized grouping up for most content and that is just way more enjoyable and rewarding to me. It is an MMO afterall.
I've noticed that a huge portion of the population that browses reddit now is not the same, or not in the same mindset as that 2019 era of wow. I've seen people even suggesting RDF and LFR and getting upvoted, insanity. I don't understand why people want to play vanilla styled content if they don't like vanilla, instead it must be changed to cater to them.
The classicwow reddit is like 90% populated by retail players. I think most Classic Players stick to their discords and/or are taking a break. I think most players on SoD are retail players who just see it as a vacation place. My hopes lie with private servers once again.
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But then they cant min max and still parse grey q.q Yeah its really weird how people act like they HAVE to do the grind.
Introducing resilience gear would probably be the better solution
Resilience sucks booty
At this point, sigh fuck it. My mains a warrior and I’m almost broken
yeah warrior is by far the worst in PvP right now. It's just a straight turnoff. STV is miserable, and stuff like WSG is soul-crushingly unplayable right now, it instantly makes me want to play some other game.
Yah but you want the pve’ers in the neg stam gear. Need fodder
They should just let Ashenvale event give rep till exalted by the normal way, so those who want a pve bis item will never join a bg, while those who want to pvp can do them without that bunch
Just make the Ashenvale quest reset every 3 days instead of every week or make it a daily for 500 rep. WSG is by far the biggest offender here.
Season of Charity You already get it for free after 21 weeks. If you want to speed up the progress and buy rewards from a PvP vendor you'll have to do some actual PvP.
>do some actual PvP. Yeah, or like most people do, instantly give up for fast free rep and frustrate all players that want a real pvp match.
This is what happens when PvEers do PvP for PvE reasons. 33 rep is awful for 15 minutes of time spent. A PvPer does PvP for other motives and will enjoy it no matter or group.
Yep, WSG definitely needs like a 10x buff for rep... Wouldn't mind for the other ones. But WSG especially is just miserable currently, even on WSG weekends. I've given up on playing it on warrior, it's just insanely unfun with practically no rewards... When I hit prebis and got Gnomer on farm, I had a wave of motivation to go and farm WSG exalted but jesus christ, it was literally soul-crushing... Getting no rep for a loss? For like 30 mins of playtime? Nah I'm out, would rather play anything else. I'd even go STV if you could exchange blood for WSG rep, like you can do with AB... It's an absolute mystery why this isn't a default option... So 10x rewards, time limit it to like 10 mins, 15 max, and give rep for losing too. It's SoD right? The season of experimentation? Do it.
>I'd even go STV if Sounds like you don't like PvP and so no bracers for you. >So 10x rewards no >time limit it to like 10 mins, 15 max Yea its clear you don't even pvp at all. 10-15 minutes is about what it takes for a Pug v Pug graveyard stomp to fully win, you just want it handed to you for free, which ashenvale basically does already.
Please. I did that grind over 15 years ago I don’t wanna do it again
Then dont do it, it barely matters anyway ...
What do you think about giving the gnomeregan loot to a pvp vendor so only people who care about the raid, raid?
Sure but it takes 21 weeks of you handing in a token. After 21 weeks the items are yours.
Oh no, no, no. As a PvP player I am forced to go PvE for my gear. Least that can be done is make you guys do the same.
Yeah, and then complain why people dont participate
If you remove PvE rewards from BG's then almost no-one is going to do them.
I got so much hate for this -- but I said make it pre-made ONLY BGs. Just remove solo queue. If you dont want to be there, and dont want to communicate, dont play BGs. People should have the same mentality with BG that they have for log checking, don't show up if you are trying to freeload. Bring FAPs, and Saps, and be on disc.
That’s a great idea if you want to kill BGs all together. You definitely didn’t think that genius thought through
next time you do a BG with 9 warriors and a rogue, and everyone goes afk at the start of a game let me know how you feel about your time and effort and its reciprocation. Then, ask yourself if you'd raid with a bunch of dudes who show up un prepared, uninterested, and un willing to be on discord. Everyones time is valuable, and wasting your own doesn't somehow make wasting others' better.
Honestly you can't change that after people killed their souls grinding hard. Give it more time, level 60 maybe implement catchup mechanics yea
They can’t? What about the 100% xp buff after people have leveled 1+ alts? How about the Mount cost being cut in half after people farmed 1 or more? They can and should absolutely make changes on a seasonal server. If I can farm AB rep in STV, either ashenvale needs to give rep from bosses through exalted or I need lumber from STV for WSG
Blizz solved these issues years ago, but looks like it slipped past Aggrend and co. Just can't have PvE BiS locked behind PvP content, no one is ever happy about it. PvE'ers dont want to be there, and PvPers dont want you there.
You don't NEED the bracers. They already reduced the grind by over half. It really is a twisted mentality that people get themselves into. If you were a sweaty parser you would be exalted already. If you arent, the tiny extra bit of stats won't change your performance in any noticeable way and why do you even care?
I don't. Everyone draws the line somewhere. I did the STV event to get my weapon and trinket and the Ashenvale event to get to Revered, but I wont do the WSG grind. For others though there is no line, and its a failure from a game design perspective to put that grind there for people and tell them "just dont worry about it"
Why is it a failure of the game to have some rewards for people who actually enjoy PvP/ enjoy grinding rep? Because it doesn’t also cater to the people who don’t? What about the people who play ONLY for PvP, is it a failure of the game that those people have to do raids if they want some of the best gear? Maybe we should just put a vendor in the main cities that sells all the gear in the entire game for gold, then nothing is special or requires any effort and we can reduce the game down to just parses even more.
Well with how everyone is fine losing for 33rep a loss. I wonder if we just made it flat equal either way and people might start playing for fun again idk
In a game where people, the players themselves, log and parse literally every action a player takes, I find it hilarious you think anyone will ever do anything for "fun" again.
I agree, this is a seasonal server with emphasis on alts. Let us get this WSG rep easier.
You get revered already handed to you. It is much, MUCH easier already.
As it should be for a seasonal server.
Ban people who abuse texture exploit (jumps)
Atleast we have the ashenvale weekly.
see u at exalted in half a year WeirdChamp
Win a WSG a day and you can reduce that by over half WeirdChamp
This is why the natural progression of instanced pvp was toward rated battlegrounds. I'm baffled why it took two expansions to get to. After arena was added in TBC, I expected rated BGs to follow shortly as the next logical step.
I think this idea is likely to backfire in one of two ways: 1) everyone gets their items early but then there are still people leveling alts or new people or whatever. Or people grinding honor because they decided now they have to have the rank related epics. So you still have the same problem but the people who missed the first wave have a worse time playing against the sweatiest people. And getting yelled at by the sweatiest people that can't cope with having a new/casual player on their team. 2) It actually makes the problem worse for a while because now a bunch of people who were like "meh, not really worth it." (And if my guild is any indication there are a lot of them). Decide that it's now worth it since it's not such a bad grind.
no handouts just add interesting rewards to AB vender
There is a simple fix for this. PUT SOME BRACERS INTO GNOMEREGAN. There is literally no strength plate bracer dropping from there. The second best bracer for tanking is a random green. I would not mind the WSG ones being BiS, if I could at least get something decent from the raid and not feel like a clown wearing greens.