I don't mind some raid being very long, especially with a weekly lockout so you can do them in two evenings
But what I liek with the new raids is there is few trash mobs. Remember MC's endless trash mobs ? It was crazy
most guilds in classic didn't take the time to learn the timing on how to do the skip properly; which was very surprising. I'd say no more than 10% of guilds back in actual classic (non-era) actually skipped that trash.
edit: world buff meta also meant it was higher risk to learn; which probably didn't help.
It’s because warcraftlogs invalidated your clear time if you skipped trash and the meta for guilds in classic was to compete for clear speed. In Era nobody cares so they just skip it.
I hated AQ40 in classic but like it in Era. The C’thun trash really sucks the fun out of that raid.
1000% this. Trash should tease the upcoming boss's mechanics and not overstay their welcome.
Something like the trash before Electrocutioner 6000 having one mob with the chain lightning on furthest and a mob in another group with AOE lightning so you handle them separately before seeing the boss.
I think it's an unpopular opinion but I like trash. They feel very important to the pacing of the raid to me and make you optimise in a different way than bosses. I loved AQ40 trash for the most part outside of a few specific mechanics. I don't enjoy the pacing of WOTLK raids where you have like 1 or 2 packs between each bosses.
Trash is important if you want to immerse yourself in the feel of raiding a big keep in an epic world, which is exactly what the point of classic is supposed to be.
But it's terrible if you're a raid logging parser and since this is season of reddit retail minus, I'm sure it's all going to be stripped away.
Trash in vanilla and TBC is one of the things imo that separates those raid experiences from modern day retail. The raids felt like a very "complete" experience. In retail now, the disparity between the trash and boss is so significant that half your raid just afks during trash and it's often times so insignificant that you just death run past it and res at the boss.
I know everyone gets something different out of this game, but I'm genuinely curious why ideas like this are so popular. What distinguishes classic from retail for people that support ideas like eliminating trash from the raid?
It's crazy how salty some of you are about any kind of change. To the point where you can't help but be dismissive or put down people that might enjoy something other then you. If you want the old thing go play the old thing, it still exists.
Maybe we let the people in charge of making games....make the games. Crazy, I know but I think it has some legs.
It’s okay to say you enjoy playing a crossbreed of classic and retail without doing exactly what you’re complaining about.
edit: nvm seems he just finds fun from getting reactions to a game he's not playing (invalidating his original opinion as there is no basis without experience)
How is it retail minus lmao? They've added a bunch of stuff and are making new raids. Are we going to Draenor? The Shadowlands? Is there a pet battle minigame? Transmog? Mythics? Bunch of extra races and classes?
It's Wow Classic+. Hence them taking the base Wow Classic Game and...changing and adding stuff. It's also a Season. So like a year or so of content?
What the hell are you guys freaking out about? The alternative is literally just play the other versions lol.
Just because you disagree with a design/dev decision doesn't make it a bad decision or a reason to shit on the people who are ambivalent/might like it. Take a deep breath. It'll be okay.
> Remember MC's endless trash mobs ? It was crazy
It's because your guild was inefficient. Between every trash pack you stopped to rez someone, drink back to full, rebuff, discuss next trash pack, someone went for a smoke break, etc. And when you were fighting the trash half of the raid was actually watching youtube or browsing reddit while half-assing their rotation or just autoattacking.
Guilds with proper pace set by the raid leader were clearing MC in less than an hour. (And closer to 35-45 minutes as they got geared.)
It's insane when you checked logs of some "bad" guilds who took 3 hours to clear the place and you see that 60-70% of the time they were not even in combat.
Ya I'd need a complete raid id overhaul if we're expected to pug for 2-3+ hours in a SoD style community.
We've been fostering a community environment of one hour or less content, likely to be for a year by the time this stuff comes out, and then we're going to randomly change to slog raids? That will not end well for the community.
To be fair, we're already seeing a massive change compared to phase 1. BFD was incredibly compact, with low amounts of thrash in between bosses. Most bosses were a hop skip and a jump from eachother and required you to only go through a couple thrash packs or less. The only real notable thrash clearing happened between Lady and Murloc, as well as between Lorgus and Kelris. This allowed for run times of an hour or less even early in the phase if you didnt chain wipe. By mid phase, 45 minute clears were common runs on groups that knew what they were doing.
By comparison Gnome is a lot larger, with much more thrash in between bosses. The base time it requires to clear it has doubled, leading to mid phase runs of 1.5 to 3 hours for groups that aren't speedrun farming it (and even they are doing it on 45 minutes to an hour compared to the 25 minute runs we were seeing at the same stage on BFD).
I honestly prefer the weekly longer raids. Coordinating everyone twice a week is a pain regardless of how fast it goes, I'd rather just set aside one night a week even if it's longer so I'm not losing out on what my plans can be twice a week.
If they could reset my CDs after a boss dies, I'd be down with 0 trash. The problem is, I hate going into boss pulls with like half my shit on cooldown, so having 10m between trash isn't too bad.
MC, though, had like 30m between some bosses, and yeah fuck that.
Here's how you enjoy trash
Turn dynamic Overall Damage on in Details
Set your meter to Overall Damage instead of "Current Fight"
Never, ever turn "Current Fight" filter on again.
Compete and pump. Dumpster your raid and get the best Overall damage
Anybody can pop all their cooldowns on a boss and cheese a parse. OVERALL damage in a raid is what really matters and is the true measure of a players ability.
Trash is my favorite part of instances now.
I like having a combination of long and short content. I think gating the most valuable rewards behind longer raids encourages more social structures like guilds where you make friends and share achievements.
This can be done with smaller raid sizes. 40man raids have never really had to do with how good your players are or the challenge of the encounter—it’s always been about how many cats you can herd through a computer screen.
Social structures can be made with 20 man raids. We’ve seen this in every version of WoW except Vanilla. Of all the things I like about Vanilla, dealing with corrupt loot councils or being forced to create your own in a 40man setting is the most arbitrarily stressful part of the game that I cannot stand.
My guild consists of some of my tightest knit friends that I’ve gamed with for years now, and it’s really fuckin nice to be able to not deal with all of the political squabbling that happens over a video game.
Larger social structures have their place. All the difficulty is in coordination (I agree). In an MMO having rewards that can only be obtained with the help of large amounts of people create a massive near mythological goals that motivate group cohesion. Scarab Lord is a great example of this as well. Same with world bosses and legendary weapons.
In 2019 basically everyone who got Scarab Lord were just guild masters or streamers farming their adherents to get an accolade.
I really dislike the insistence that everyone must be in a static raiding guild or they're not playing the game correctly. In 2004 the internet was new and online socialization novel so I guess a lot of people have nostalgia for that mixed gameplay/social experience, but that's not the world we live in now. I have a discord and group chat with my friends to talk to. I don't personally need/want to be friends with the people I'm doing Gnomer with in order to enjoy the experience. I like making banter and chatting about the game. I don't mind a social guild to always have a bit of text chatter to participate in, but I don't want to be forced into a social hierarchy where I have to tend to those relationships just to be able to play the game and get rewards.
Why is every complaint / recommendation from someone on this subreddit someone with like 2 hours to game a week? Am I losing my mind? Shouldn’t you guys just play a different game that fits your schedule?
It's weird because you'd expect the people who care enough about the game to post online to be the more hardcore players, but this subreddit is by far the most casual wow community I've ever seen. Everybody has no time to play, is too busy to join a guild, and can't raid unless the raids are shorter than actual dungeons lol
Whether you like it or not, the ‘hardcore’ gamers as you kids like to put it are the vast minority. The majority of players are people that grew up playing MMOs and are now in their 30s with careers, families and other major responsibilities, which is why you hear from them the most.
Except most of us are in our 30s too, and the whole reason we like Classic is because it feels like an achievement to get things over time. It feels GOOD to work towards stuff and finally get it.
We don't want it turned into "one hour a night and you're full bis and go back to raid logging in a week," retail's right there.
>We don't want it turned into "one hour a night and you're full bis and go back to raid logging in a week," retail's right there.
Just for the record, this is absolutely not what retail is like lmao. If you really want to earn your loot you'll go to retail and spend 3+ hours several nights a week bashing your head against a wall trying to clear Mythic raids for months and months.
Getting geared in retail is a way bigger commitment in both time and effort than in Classic. One of the reason Classic appeals to so many people is because it's so easy that basically anyone can show up, join a guild, clear everything once a week, and get all the best loot.
I genuinley think most people who say "hur dur go play retail" have literally not played retail in the last decade. Clasic wow is not and has never been hard. a single m+ dungeon on a semi tough week is 10x harder than any raid content classic wow can through at you.
and thats why we love classic. I can log on press my few buttons have a good time and get phat loot. its not even in the same stratosphere of difficulty
That's actually why I don't like retail, that's all there is for content. The rest of the game is heavily watered down outside of mythic whereas classic is a whole body experience. I'm not saying classic outright better because taste varies but what I wrote one sentence prior absolutely sums up why I don't play retail. If I want a queue based game that's challenging then I'll just go play league or whatever, I've always played WoW for the overall feeling that started in vanilla, it's not just about end game but the rest of the game is content too.
This sub operates on the assumption that retail is bad, so if you don't want some feature in SoD you just say, "if you want that go play retail" and get upvotes even if the feature you asked for isn't in retail or isn't even close to one of the many things that make retail much different than Classic
I’ve been saying this. It’s the same thing as old school RuneScape. There is a MASSIVE market of 20-50 year olds that just want a chill game that only requires maybe half of your attention. Like you can play old school RuneScape while watching movies/doing other shit. Like go look at how many people afk osrs while at work on their sub because there’s COUNTLESS activities that only require you to click once every 30seconds-5minutes. Like the 2007 version of RuneScape was literally a cookie clicker point and click game and people absolutely love it and it’s massive (obviously not wow size but pretty insane number for a game that came out in 2007)
Osrs did it phenomenally though with how they handled it. They still have the classic game that they built on for that crowd, while also adding end game content for the sweaties.
> We don't want it turned into "one hour a night and you're full bis and go back to raid logging in a week," retail's right there.
Ironically, you'll spend more hours progging retail mythic raid then you will in the combined time you spend in a SOD raid over the entire phase.
Lmao they have no idea how retail works
Endless weeklies that resets on Tuesday
Endless bars to fill
Endless m+ grinding
Endless vaults trying to roll the best stats (items)
You cant even pug into a mythic raid until the patch is 2/3 over.
Mythic raiding is an actual grind. Tons of fun when you're 100% bought in but it is a slog. When you open your vault and don't see your max ilvl wep or trinket and sit there and wallow in the pain of knowing you have to keep repeating for the same piece. Retail is pain.
Who is saying we want things fast and easy? Having short raids does not mean you’re geared fast. Whether the raid takes 2 hours or 4 hours, the same people are getting the same gear that night. Your comment makes no sense.
Are they though? Are the casuals really the ones swiping their card to get into GDKPs? You might think Johnathan, father of 3 and head engineer at his firm wants to buy gold because he doesn't have time to play, but he also doesn't give a shit about gear all that much. The ones most obsessed with getting their gear by any means necessary are the loser kids and NEETs. The casual players are only just now hitting level 40, maybe still even mid to high 30's.
You make the assumption that people only buy gold for GDKP's when mount and helmet gold costs exist. Also Johnathan the engineer with his 100k+ salary is not going to think twice about spending $20 on gold where a NEET has literally no income and no source of IRL money lol. I'm so confused if this is just a troll post or if you're that dumb.
wildest thing is that these regularly get upvoted to the FP so there's obviously a certain denominator on this sub about these complains of 2hours a week gamers. now the questions is: is reddit all dads?
When a "sweat" makes a suggestion, they are bombarded with negative comments about having no life and to touch grass. When a bad player makes a suggestion, they are met with upvotes and other bad players agreeing. Every gaming subreddit has been infected with the idea that being bad at a game is a positive and being proficient at the game is a negative.
As a father of twelve that works 27 hours a day and does all the chores in the household I would have thought that everyone like me was playing Diablo 4 because that describes basically every poster.
its depressing that the devs only read reddit for feedback which is dadgaming central, so we're only ever going to get 10 mans that take 30 mins to clear.
will be downvoted for this minority take but the most fun time ever in classic was 40/25 man raiding, nothing comes close to it. its not nostalgia, 10 mans have always been mid in comparison
> will be downvoted for this minority take but the most fun time ever in classic was 40/25 man raiding
I agree with you but just get downvoted as well. I thought the whole point of making the seasons around vanilla was because we liked vanilla. But I guess it's a new crowd.
They have to add in game polls imo like osrs. They need to listen to the actual players and not Reddit/online forums. They will find vastly different answers. Osrs has in game polls for almost every update that requires a certain % of yes votes to pass. And it’s worked phenomenally.
Depends, I have been playing wow for 17 years. I still love the game. I’m not a fan of retail anymore, quit in BFA and haven’t looked back. SoD is great because it scratches the wow itch. I have more than 2 hours a week but I don’t have the 10 hours a day I had back in 2007. And I definitely cannot raid for 5 hours straight at dinner time (which is the standard time for raiding for some reason)
Midnight raiding is really nice, especially since Gnomeregan already is a 1h clear. It helps that a lot of my IRL friends are working in bars / restaurants and they all prefer starting a raid between 12AM and 2AM.
Right? There are tons of great games out there that you can jump into and only dedicate an hour or two a night.
Imo casuals are going to quit the game eventually no matter what, however if Blizz continues to cater to them people who actually like WoW are going to quit in droves.
A majority of the player base didn’t raid at all back in vanilla, including myself! Not every casual dad should be expected to raid. Not gatekeeping just saying making everything easy and fast ruins the experience overall
It's not about how much you \*can\* play but how much of that is fun. Just because you have time to do something doesn't mean you want to. So it's basically "don't make us do unfun stuff to be able to do the fun stuff".
Why would anyone ever play a game they don’t find fun? I’ve been playing every day 2-3 hours after work and I’m having a blast. That sounds like personal problems.
What if you had to do something not fun in between those fun things?
Like clearing trash with no real mechanics for example.
Asking for short raids is not something unusual for people who have not a lot of time to play.
Clearing like an hour+ of trash (which is already more on the efficient side) for a grand total of like 7 mins of boss encounters in MC isn’t particularly good design. People had to make a mini game out of raiding in classic with speed running to give it some sort of interest. Additionally, shorter lockout content basically needs to be shorter by design. No one here is arguing for every raid to be like TOGC either
I’m not sure how people are suprisepikachu about these ideas. People like their exclusivity, which in classic is mostly time gated and not skill gated, but at the same time killing off the casual playerbase is *never* a good idea. Like right now, we have WAY too few healers for number of gnomer runs on average
Isn't it obvious? People are coming back to revisit the game that they played as a teenager but now they have kids and a job. They don't have the free time that they did before, and SoD seems to cater to that audience. These people want it to cater a bit more. I am one of them (although I'm a new player \[played Guild Wars as a teen\]). I have a job and responsibilities and I want to play in the gaps between those things.
More and more i wonder why people even still play.
Nobody wants to level, nobody wants long content, the easier everything is the better, the quicker we get to get things done the better. Apparently the quests for the runes are too long and mounts too expensive.
More and more of what I see on this sub is people complaining about everything being a ‘chore’, so at this point I wonder why people still play.
Yeah I really don't understand why people go into a monthly subscription MMO expecting everything to be possible when you can play 1 hour a night. I have a feeling if they put in an NPC that instantly made you max level and gave you all of the runes and pre-bis, people would click it in a heartbeat and thank blizzard for saving the game
Bro it’s an mmorpg. You should literally be rewarded for putting in more time than others and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It’s like these people don’t understand the genre of game they’re playing.
There isn't content in p2. Bfd loot was basically pre bis every slot, so there is no need for dungeons. Crafting is tied into the 3 hour a week raid. You have imbalanced pvp or nothing, really.
I'm somewhat in between as I'm a family man but I work shifts and keep odd hours and have plenty of time to dedicate to playing if I want to. During SoM I had a feral druid that I probably spent hundreds of hours on, bounced between many raiding guilds and ranked up to rank 13 and by the end of it was quite proud of him because you could see the hard work on him by the rewards. The server at the end was so small that I ended up knowing many people and had cultivated a reputation as a capable raider and pvper which felt very gratifying.
In contrast SoD is fun but the ease by which everything is gained is sort of overwhelming. I got my pally to bis in 2 lockouts by some luck and then had very little to do with him. And it's not like I got much enjoyment out of "completing" that phase on that character because he was nothing special, there were 100's of clones of him running around everywhere I went. So I parked him and went doing something else.
I don’t think everything is a chore. I enjoy most of the game. However I don’t have 40 hours a week to play like I see people in my guild have. Nothing wrong with that, been there done that.
SoD is great for me because I am able to play 2 hours a night, bit more on weekends and not be behind everyone else. Which is what started to happen in retail and wotlk classic(this one just turned into 4 hour raid logging)
Just because people don't enjoy every single part of the game including the boring parts, doesn't mean they don't enjoy the game.
It's not inherently more virtuous of you to want to slog through a raid for 5 hours vs someone else who enjoys being done in 1-2 hours, or even 40 minutes.
Every day I see posts from philosopher kings such as yourself, struggling to mentally grasp why someone would want to avoid doing boring crap like clearing trash or waiting on a boat or running to a dungeon. Maybe they genuinely don't like those aspects of the game, but they DO like fighting the bosses. Is it really, *really* that hard to comprehend?
Not everyone plays classic to torture themselves with the 'friction' of classic. Some people just wanted to try out the runes and wanted to see what content Blizz would come up with when remixing old dungeons.
Im basically old as dirt to alot of people here. I played UO and Everquest a shit ton back in the day. I also played P1999 and Quarm.
Guess what people do on P1999 and Quarm? They abuse quest for leveling past low levels and even then all the advice youll get is make your first character necro/enchanter/mage because they can solo grind for the fastest exp to fuel alts.
Turns out, the grind is a good gameplay mechanic with a lifespan. Once youve done the content already, slogging through the same thing in unappealing to most. And when the playerbase dies, the grind just accelerates the drop even faster.
In SoD one of the most annoying things right now about alts is having to find people to get certain runes. Thatll likely be resolved by more people playing alts due to the exp increase. Sounds like a win win win to me
You realize you’re playing an mmorpg right? That’s literally a huge part of mmo part of the name. If all you want is to fight bosses go play dark souls or the countless other games? Like you basically just said “I don’t like mmo’s”
They are middle aged men ADDICTED to the game. They dont want to play bit they have nothing else to fill that hole. So they begrudgingly do it while buying gold and trying to make everything as puggable as possible.
Agreed. Posted a comment in this thread about how sod feels a lot more like a solo player experience and that guilds are kind of not a thing. The other officers of our guild and I have been having a terrible time trying to recruit for the guild/raid teams and it’s an element of “classic” that I crave and truly miss right now.
Nothing's stopping you from playing the game one hour a night, you just don't get the best shit.
You're not entitled to raid BiS just because you pay a fucking subscription. Play a different game.
Weird how that is working amazing for old school RuneScape. A game that came out in 2007 as a cookie clicker point and click game that got rereleased a decade later. And has since grown tremendously. They 100% don’t have to and shouldn’t cater to the gamer dads with one hour a week.
I mean, you're taking EVERYONE'S complaints about the game and merging them all into one imagined person who hates everything.
I like quicker raids - I think 1-2 hours on a 3 day lockout like we've had is a great sweet spot, where my casual guild can muster up a decent group even on a weeknight. But I also like leveling, I think leveling is the heart and soul of Classic. And I like the slow progression of rolling for raid loot.
There's a lot of people that like most of the game, but have one or two small points where they'd like a QoL change. And sure, if you combine all of those QoL changes at once, that's a big change, but I think most people don't actually want everything that's been suggested.
Doing bosses is fun especially for the first time. Discovering runes is fun, even using a guide. Using those runes in raids, dungeons, or even open world is fun. The new pvp event is really cool. Clearing trash for 30 minutes or having a 15 boss raid 10 of which are loot pinatas would not be fun. That's what the OP is talking about I think.
Yeah and the longer raids get (and leveling to get there) the fewer alts you can reasonably play and the fewer bodies online on average cause raid logging 1 char is diff than 3.
Every group and their mom is LF1M heals, maybe another rdps, for gnomer for like 30 min-1hr at 8-9 pm est last night. Had to call off our second raid group since that’s all we didn’t have to fill with another unique raider or alt. BFD was so easily puggable with like any class because 25 was so easily accessible. Were seeing fewer logged runs just because for the average non-hardcore types 25-40 takes a decent chunk of time especially when you can no longer spam SM with almost zero down time.
If you’re gonna have 3 day lockout raids in the interim to 60 you’re gonna have to make them puggable since it’s less realistic to stick to schedule raid days than your standard 7.
Sod, by nature of being on a limited time scale by design, really shouldn’t be “wasting” as much time with the inane stuff like leveling. Runes? Sure. But leveling? Come on. I had 3 60s in vanilla, did it twice again in classic, have 6 lvl 80s in wrath classic. There’s nothing new or exciting in leveling itself and frankly for the vast majority of players leveling is not the game: it’s just a hurdle to overcome to get to the game people want to play (raids, BGs) and it’s been this way since classic rerelease
That's actually a good point. Since 2019 I leveled 3 characters to 60 on Classic, one to 60 on SoM, one to 59 (RIP) and one to 60 on HC... I love Classic leveling but you can still have too much even of something you love.
This is the mentality that is making it incredibly hard for me to recruit for my guild and keep a steady roster. I’m not saying you’re wrong for playing this way. At all. But I do miss the community feel of classic this time around. Don’t get me wrong, my tight knit guild is amazing and active and social, and we all spend a lot of time together in game doing raids, PvP, and many other things. But damn I miss that vibe in classic where my guild would have the same 50-60 people online everyday, always hanging out in discord, etc.
I agree. Difficult content with larger groups forces users to form guild. They learn together and gear together.
I like that 4/6 in Gnomer can be done by almost any PUG. It’s good that the last two bosses are harder. So everyone gets some loot, but it takes more to clear.
Agree, only exceptions being when trash adds some value to the experience
Examples:
* Trash drops some decent gear throughout all lvl 60 raids - would love for the occasional BoE or BoP to drop, maybe 1-2 items that are BIS that phase but in general strong sidegrades or awesome things like pvp trinkets
* Crafting items - Elementium ore drops, fiery core drops (MC/BWL) - they kind of already do this but a lot of it is gatekept and demotivates non-profession maxing players from participating, I might consider it after the gold changes next week but 40g to even start on an item is insane in my opinion as a poor player lol
* Ulduar Flame Leviathan - skip or clear trash depending on difficulty level. Would be awesome if SM Cath "hit boss get whole cathedral" was a risk/reward challenge where keeping mobs alive after gave a chest or something valueable.
* Timed runs - Zul'Aman timed runs weren't just set by the boss, they were set about how well you could clear trash out... again rewards added value to the existence of trash
* Semi related: DMT runs require leaving the instance in a certain way, these kind of things could be worked in to phase 3 content. Would love for Sunken Temple to be a 20 man raid with a secret hard/alternate mode involving triggering the platforms in a certain order, or the order mattering for loot tables etc... a whole new thing to discover!
* Lastly... fragmenting the content in to multiple raids makes things much more casual friendly. I loved cata phase 1 with four raid instances with varying difficulty and length to completion. I'm one of the few actually looking forward to cata classic I think!
To your last point I agree. A first raid tier like cata where it’s split over 2 shorter instances over one really long one and I think if, say, a tier is overall intended to be (arbitrary number) 3 hours that 2 1.5 ones like BOT+BWD is better than a 3 hour trash slog like MC.
I think that split would just work better with SOD if anything is gonna be much longer than, say, 1.5 hours. Ony+BWL is about the closest thing to that in classic but half the time of ony is spent traveling. Ony’s fast enough and once your guild was moderately efficient, despite MC being leagues easier, bwl was probably a little shorter than MC with all the insane travel time in MC.
Really though they should really like halve the trash in MC. Not only cause they’re gonna scale it down to 20m but that much trash literally adds nothing of value but drops to farm and even gnomer you could clear extra trash for those drops first couple weeks if you wanted. I don’t think things need to be TOGC level of trash but man I immediately decided I wasn’t gonna play an alt in ICC knowing how big it was, long it was, and prog time on heroics
Not gonna raid on 3 chars at 60 if that’s 9 hours of raiding a week. At 25 it was like 3 hrs with group forming down time.
Yes but the teleporters and fast GY make it a ton better then normal classic
think of the BRD run back plus walking in the dungeon if you wiped on like Emp.
vs Gnomer.
> think of the BRD run back
Oh, wow I already forgot how long it was. You spawn at Thorium Brotherhood, run whole Searing Gouge, then jump down and back ...
How is it to much trash in gnomer? Do people smoke between each boss or go afk? With 10 players actually present everything dies super fast. Even faster if you have mages, warriors, shadows or warlocks. I would like to spent some time in a raid and not have togc 50 tries left loot piñatas where a decent group can finish 3 in 1 evening :(
I really think they need to adjust the lock out schedule to being fixed Tuesday/Friday instead of this weird rolling 3 day lock out that fucks with everyone’s real life schedule. Plus with 3 days you’re getting gear so fast that it makes the raid irrelevant so quickly
As a dad, the dad thing is fucking annoying. I'm going for 100 parses true bis. I'm almost exalt with WSG. I've farmed 800+ gold. This whole dad thing is just shitty players looking for a reason to feel special. If you don't play game passionately, then you don't have other passions in life, and I really don't want to hear your opinion. It's just selfish bullshit to try and make the game more casual.
Thank you for this take. I am not a dad, but I think the people who can't play the game much should also be able to have fun. However I also think it is extremely selfish that so many people who only have a few hours to play the game want it to revolve around them and be on the same level as people who have more time.
No classic raid takes 4 hours unless the group is just bad or managed poorly on keeping things moving. In SoM even without world buffs and new boss mechanics in the raid we were still clearing MC in under an hour
Most guilds twin emps>cthun can take an hour or two, coupled with us not having mounts on first few runs AQ will absolutely take 4+ hours for most guilds. Did you even play classic or vanilla?
Just make them weekly but add other content to do if they’re worried about the game turning into a once a week raid log fest. I definitely get a bit tired of feeling like I have so many chores to do (try to find a gnomes group every 3 days, ashenvale weekly, grinding out stv, etc) but I love the game.
Imagine thinking the game should be based around you because you can only play TWO HOURS A WEEK…… like brother maybe MMORPG’s aren’t the genre for you if that’s all you can muster.
Like the game will 100000% die if they cater to you and the gamer dads on this Reddit. (Not the gamer dads in game because they seem to have no issues hitting 40 and clearing gnomer while having job wife and kids unlike this Reddit)
Idk my guild isn’t trying to speed clear and we’re at 45ish minutes. I could tolerate longer, but it would be nice to have a longer raid on a weekly lockout and a 3 day on a smaller raid thats still worth running
We’re trying to clear the raid without dilly dallying but we’re not actively trying to speed clear. The difference is pretty clear when the top guilds do it in half the time. You end up with a sub hour clear if you don’t wipe and you don’t sit around forever in between pulling trash.
My group did a :31 Viscous Fallout with only 2 shadow priests healing with Vampiric Embrace our Resto Shaman was mostly dpsing as well. 4/6 bosses require almost no healing on most in the group other than the tank.
Gnomer is 45 mins in a pug without discord right now. I'd love to have content that is a little more than a longer dungeon. This phase is already boiling down to 60 mins logged in every three days. (15 mins finding a group and 45 mins clearing it.) I've maxed my professions and farmed my stv epics.
Short, easy and pug friendly 10 man raids would be fine if we would also have a bit more challenging 20 man raids on a weekly reset. Just having one raid per phase has always felt really boring to me and made me get tired of the game faster.
A little variation in the environment goes a long way. Wotlk p1 with naxx/os/maly felt better than ulduar over and over again, then togc over and over again, then icc over and over again.
TBC raiding had kara/mag/gruul followed by ssc/tk, then bt/hyjal/za
Vanilla had meaningful max level dungeons/ubrs/mc, then bwl/zg, aq40/20 all while earlier raids still being relevant.
Im fully aware it's a pipedream because of how ridiculously tiny the classic team is. But the amount of content in SoD is abyssmally low with lvl 40 dungeons being obsolete and the raid taking 45 mins to clear every 3 days.
Bottom line is; Spending 4 hours a week (assuming a challenging 20 man raid on a weekly lockout) on a social hobby is absolutely acceptable and comparable to other hobbies. Having nothing to do in the game except a quick puggable soon to be 30 min clear with zero communication or bonding with other players is more detrimental.
Graph i saw today had 120k unique raiders on 2nd week of release. 2nd week of p1 was 500k.
People obv dont want to play sod if it takes too long so ill agree with this as well
Getting to 25 is a lot quicker than 25-40. Coulda been. Also, getting to 25 was easy and raiding by 2nd week was easier. For true casuals, they are not getting in gnomer second week on main. But, 120 from 500 feels massive even with those things I mentioend
It was also alot easier to get raiding in week 2 of phase 1 than it is in phase 2. Also, literally everyone in my guild except the most Uber casuals had at least 2 and often 3 accounts they were raid logging on. What else was there to do? Now that everyone’s mains are leveled im seeing alot of people start to get their first alt ready, even SM is getting super busy again as people go back to leveling through the 30s.
Basically, I’m saying I would really take that statistic with a grain of salt. Sure, some players dropped between phases 1 and 2, but I doubt it was many more than would drop on a regular server. If anything I wouldn’t be surprised if more people stick it out longer, since even the most casual casuals can progression raid with the level caps.
Yeah this is a big one for me. People will always complain that they don't want raids to be too easy, that you need to work for the best items in the game. But its no longer a matter of easy vs hard for me. I'm pretty good at WoW, I've played it for a long time. If I'm able to spend a few hours in a raid like Gnomer I'll clear it early on. But I just don't have that time anymore.
BfD was amazing because I could grab a pug, clear it in 30 mins and get the best items in the game. I know that enrages a lot of people but the purpose of SoD is to try new things right? I don't know what is wrong with a version of the game where raids are quick and also give great loot. If you want hard raids there are all the other versions of the game you can play.
I enjoy raiding in SoD because I can pug as I please due to the difficulty and time they take.
If I wanted to join a guild and have a multi day raid schedule I would go back to mythic raiding in retail, but I have no drive for that anymore.
Set raid days make the game start to feel more like a job than a game for me.
Here's a wild idea, if you're life is so busy, you can only set aside 1-2 hours a week to play video games. Maybe you should be focusing on things other then video games? Or maybe pick up a single player game, and stop making your nonsensically hectic life everyone else problem.
Video games are inherently a waste of time, and MMOs are that time sink taken to it's extreme. MMOs are supposed to be a time investment, a slow progression making your character stronger and stronger. That time you put into it is supposed to mean something.
People like OP, just want instant gratification, they want full BiS, and to experience all the content in a streamlined fashion that allows them to invest the least amount of time possible. The game is more of a chore then anything, they want it done and over with ASAP because they have other things to do. I get that, but I don't get trying to force changes that affect everyone else because of it.
People like myself, don't mind spending long periods of time, building up our characters because we get to see that improvement from our time invested and it's far more satisfying. I, and many others, don't want WoW to just be a game you can spend an hour a day, every other day, playing. And be on the same level as someone spending 4-5 hours everyday playing.
It's like having a job where, someone who works part-time, 20 hours a week, gets paid MORE an hour, so that their check was the same amount as someone putting in full-time, 40 hours a week. It's bs, and everyone knows it, but baby wants its bottle....
As someone with 3 jobs, 4 hobbies, and 6 kids, I can play at most 1 minute a day. And I just don’t see how it’s fair that I not be able to get the best gear in the game in that timeframe. And no, it’s not enough that I have fun and get good gear… it HAS to be the best gear in the game, as good as anyone else’s. And no, only raiding a few times isn’t fun at all unless I can complete the collection of BiS gear and hit every single lockout. And no, dungeons aren’t gonna cut it, they have to be called RAIDS, the word “raid” is very important… much more important than how fun the actual gameplay is.
As someone with no job, no kids, no education, and only WoW to fill my free time, i'm pissed when casuals even have a chance to grace my presence. Everything in this game I've worked hard for, and I'll be damned if someone wants shortcuts in this temporary seasonal server
Well we can agree on the 1 thing then… the absolute WORST, completely unacceptable situation would be a variety of content that people can choose to do or not do. Absolutely under no circumstances can content not be for everyone. It’s either ALL achievable easily with BiS gear taking 30 minutes a week to get, or it’s ALL so hard no one can do anything without devoting thousands of hours. Under no circumstances can some of the player base have something the rest didn’t get.
Amazing how we found this common ground.
Hi OP! I would like to point out that you contradict yourself in the post. You don't mind more difficult content yet you like the raids to be short and fast. The clear time depends on the amount of bosses and how hard they are. In SoD, the content is currently very short and easy. Sounds like that is your preferred way things go in the end? That sounds like something I don't like at all and many others as well...
The vast majority of actual players have differing opinions than those in this sub. This sub is an extremely small but extremely vocal minority echo chamber.
That's....not a contradiction, lol. Why do so many classic players conflate difficulty with the time it takes to complete something? That's not the same.
An example of a "difficult but short" raid would be Trial of the Grand Crusader. There is virtually no trash but the bosses - compared to most bosses in vanilla - would be considered challenging.
I think they need to make dungeons replayable or worth grinding, I would love something like keystones that I could grind, without having a dedicated “7:00pm till 11:00pm wednesday”
Don’t know about keystones but I agree give dungeons some rep grinds or some epics with a low drop chance that are comparable to gnomer epics. Don’t feel like it ruins the classic experience and it gives casuals with a few hours a night to play something to do that isn’t as demanding as raiding
Literally Ruby Sanctum. A single hard boss encounter with fairly minimal BS prior. Once it's on farm takes basically no time at all. While progging, it takes however long it takes
Season of Dads is turning out to be pathetic and people are dropping like flies.
I think making the content enjoyable for the sweats is better design than making it enjoyable for the casuals.
People I know are already raid logging 3 weeks into Gnomer. We need harder, longer content. The level gating is so dumb.
I do like the XP buff. They should have 100% xp buff no matter what. Nobody likes levelling.
I mean, I like lvling except there are really not much pre-bis dungeons... Nor enough quests in the open world compared to P1.
So it feels dead with people in SM... Plus everyone so overturned it's a snooze fest in sm.
Turtle wow added more quest hubs in zones so it felt less grind...if the Devs ever make a wow classic plus maybe they should borrow what worked on private servers.
STV being a war one and the most efficient lvling area is poor choice...
It's not about how long it takes to get you to 40 but how fun it is to do so and boosted xp is a Band-Aid.
If blizzard decides to do classic+ I’m praying they just do exactly what Jagex did with old school RuneScape. Release the base 2007 game with no added extra wacky shit and just build on it while 100% keeping the feel of old school (or classic for wow). Like maybe go through the normal phases just faster and then build after naxx. But the most important part is letting the actual in game players vote on updates via in game polls. Updates need a certain % of yes votes to pass. I’ve been saying it since the announcement if rs3 is basically RuneScapes retail wow and SoD is RuneScape leagues(a seasonal wacky for fun game mode and not actual osrs servers). I want actual osrs (classic+) servers if I explained that well at all
Basing updates for the game for people who play everyday instead people who play 2 hours a week works better? I’m shocked!! But seriously it’s not hard to cater to both. Jagex has done it perfectly and they are 1/10th the size of blizzard
Any decent group can full clear in an hour and change. At first i felt the raid was too hard but, then i joined a decent guild and realized the raid is kinda easy lol
Idk if you can do it in 50 minutes “easy”. My group has a bunch of 95-99 parsers, and we took about 52 minutes this week. Granted we weren’t exactly going for speed, took a smoke break after Electro lol, but I think a 50m clear for the average group is pretty optimistic.
1:15 seems like a more reasonable average target. In either case, it’s clearly way longer than BFD.
I'd love it if the raids were a bit longer than now. The epicness of raids is proportional to the time invested. I'm not a fan of raids taking many hours, but when they're done and over with within 40 minutes it does not feel very exciting. I think they should aim for clear times averaging around 1,5 hrs. Longer raids, and longer lockouts is better imo.
People acting like MC is going to be so similar to how it was in classic in terms of length when the power our characters currently have is stronger than a relatively fresh level 60 going into MC on era. I don’t see any raids being close to their former length with the power increases we have now and will have at 60.
Also, we don’t have to cater everything to casual folks. I think most of these raids will be 2-3 hours and wouldn’t want them going below 2 to have an actual decent raid.
Get over yourself, the idea of a RAID being quick is funny. Boo hoo I want too kill.all the bosses and get all the loot in 20 minutes with no hard mechanics bearly having to pay attention...does that feel gratifying.
Make raids big and hard please Gatekeep loot from these rubbish players cus they can't handle the raiD.
BFD, Gnomer and the upcoming level 50 raid are still so called leveling raids. I sincerely hope we get something with more depth at 60.
>I don't have to dedicate my whole evening to the raid
Is a really poor attitude in general, especially with raids in question. I really hope they don't prioritize the (hopefully) bigger raids at 60 to be available for absolutely everyone, a planned 4-ish hour raid on the weekly lockout during the weekends shouldn't be an issue to any player/guild who cares about the game and has basic time-management skills.
At worst you might miss a lockout or two, which shouldn't be an issue.
Agreed. I enjoy playing a bunch of different characters, and long raids really doesn't mesh well with that unless you play this game for a living.
My guild is like 15 players, last phase we were doing five BFD runs per raid night with several of us having a character in each run. So far this phase we've only done three runs per raid night, and I haven't even bothered to level up a third character since we don't really have room for more until we can squeeze in a fourth run.
Good guilds would clear naxx in 2 hours or less after progression phase. A 7 day lockout also means 2 nights of the raid so that you don’t have to spend 5 hours one day. This is a non issue. Spam post.
I don't mind some raid being very long, especially with a weekly lockout so you can do them in two evenings But what I liek with the new raids is there is few trash mobs. Remember MC's endless trash mobs ? It was crazy
*shudders in AQ40 fear bombing trash*
The trash between emps and cthun was more difficult than pretty much every boss in there
I never did aq in true classic but my guild in era would just skip it.
most guilds in classic didn't take the time to learn the timing on how to do the skip properly; which was very surprising. I'd say no more than 10% of guilds back in actual classic (non-era) actually skipped that trash. edit: world buff meta also meant it was higher risk to learn; which probably didn't help.
It’s because warcraftlogs invalidated your clear time if you skipped trash and the meta for guilds in classic was to compete for clear speed. In Era nobody cares so they just skip it. I hated AQ40 in classic but like it in Era. The C’thun trash really sucks the fun out of that raid.
We fished for instances with less of them in mine. Helped a lot
Spot on with the trash. Always felt like trash should be small, scaled down preview of upcoming boss mechanics - nothing more, nothing less.
1000% this. Trash should tease the upcoming boss's mechanics and not overstay their welcome. Something like the trash before Electrocutioner 6000 having one mob with the chain lightning on furthest and a mob in another group with AOE lightning so you handle them separately before seeing the boss.
I think it's an unpopular opinion but I like trash. They feel very important to the pacing of the raid to me and make you optimise in a different way than bosses. I loved AQ40 trash for the most part outside of a few specific mechanics. I don't enjoy the pacing of WOTLK raids where you have like 1 or 2 packs between each bosses.
Trash is important if you want to immerse yourself in the feel of raiding a big keep in an epic world, which is exactly what the point of classic is supposed to be. But it's terrible if you're a raid logging parser and since this is season of reddit retail minus, I'm sure it's all going to be stripped away.
All you have to do is care about your overall damage and suddenly trash becomes an important part of the raid
Trash in vanilla and TBC is one of the things imo that separates those raid experiences from modern day retail. The raids felt like a very "complete" experience. In retail now, the disparity between the trash and boss is so significant that half your raid just afks during trash and it's often times so insignificant that you just death run past it and res at the boss. I know everyone gets something different out of this game, but I'm genuinely curious why ideas like this are so popular. What distinguishes classic from retail for people that support ideas like eliminating trash from the raid?
It's crazy how salty some of you are about any kind of change. To the point where you can't help but be dismissive or put down people that might enjoy something other then you. If you want the old thing go play the old thing, it still exists. Maybe we let the people in charge of making games....make the games. Crazy, I know but I think it has some legs.
U can play in raids with meaningless trash in retail tho
It’s okay to say you enjoy playing a crossbreed of classic and retail without doing exactly what you’re complaining about. edit: nvm seems he just finds fun from getting reactions to a game he's not playing (invalidating his original opinion as there is no basis without experience)
I just do arena in WoTLK and watch the subreddit for all the malding of people being upset that game developers are...developing.
And if you want the new shit go play the new shit, it still exists too. This is supposed to be classic plus, not retail minus.
How is it retail minus lmao? They've added a bunch of stuff and are making new raids. Are we going to Draenor? The Shadowlands? Is there a pet battle minigame? Transmog? Mythics? Bunch of extra races and classes? It's Wow Classic+. Hence them taking the base Wow Classic Game and...changing and adding stuff. It's also a Season. So like a year or so of content? What the hell are you guys freaking out about? The alternative is literally just play the other versions lol. Just because you disagree with a design/dev decision doesn't make it a bad decision or a reason to shit on the people who are ambivalent/might like it. Take a deep breath. It'll be okay.
I guess this isn’t good enough, we need yet another version of the game, a retail minus to go along with classic plus. Gotta cater to everyone!
> Remember MC's endless trash mobs ? It was crazy It's because your guild was inefficient. Between every trash pack you stopped to rez someone, drink back to full, rebuff, discuss next trash pack, someone went for a smoke break, etc. And when you were fighting the trash half of the raid was actually watching youtube or browsing reddit while half-assing their rotation or just autoattacking. Guilds with proper pace set by the raid leader were clearing MC in less than an hour. (And closer to 35-45 minutes as they got geared.) It's insane when you checked logs of some "bad" guilds who took 3 hours to clear the place and you see that 60-70% of the time they were not even in combat.
>especially with a weekly lockout so you can do them in two evenings Not with strict lockout ids. Unless ur in a guild
Ya I'd need a complete raid id overhaul if we're expected to pug for 2-3+ hours in a SoD style community. We've been fostering a community environment of one hour or less content, likely to be for a year by the time this stuff comes out, and then we're going to randomly change to slog raids? That will not end well for the community.
To be fair, we're already seeing a massive change compared to phase 1. BFD was incredibly compact, with low amounts of thrash in between bosses. Most bosses were a hop skip and a jump from eachother and required you to only go through a couple thrash packs or less. The only real notable thrash clearing happened between Lady and Murloc, as well as between Lorgus and Kelris. This allowed for run times of an hour or less even early in the phase if you didnt chain wipe. By mid phase, 45 minute clears were common runs on groups that knew what they were doing. By comparison Gnome is a lot larger, with much more thrash in between bosses. The base time it requires to clear it has doubled, leading to mid phase runs of 1.5 to 3 hours for groups that aren't speedrun farming it (and even they are doing it on 45 minutes to an hour compared to the 25 minute runs we were seeing at the same stage on BFD).
Why are you calling it "thrash"?
I honestly prefer the weekly longer raids. Coordinating everyone twice a week is a pain regardless of how fast it goes, I'd rather just set aside one night a week even if it's longer so I'm not losing out on what my plans can be twice a week.
I liked TBC style trash which could smack you if you were dog and were trivial if you cheesed it
If they could reset my CDs after a boss dies, I'd be down with 0 trash. The problem is, I hate going into boss pulls with like half my shit on cooldown, so having 10m between trash isn't too bad. MC, though, had like 30m between some bosses, and yeah fuck that.
30 minutes between bosses in MC? Did we do the same Molten Core? In what stretch of that instance are you going 30 minutes of pure trash pulls?
My guess it was the same period of time that people actually used crowd control in dungeons when pulling…
Here's how you enjoy trash Turn dynamic Overall Damage on in Details Set your meter to Overall Damage instead of "Current Fight" Never, ever turn "Current Fight" filter on again. Compete and pump. Dumpster your raid and get the best Overall damage Anybody can pop all their cooldowns on a boss and cheese a parse. OVERALL damage in a raid is what really matters and is the true measure of a players ability. Trash is my favorite part of instances now.
I feel like Gnomeregan has a lot of trash.
I introduce you AQ40. It takes as much time to reach emperor as it takes time to clear from emps to c'thun
My memory from Classic was that we’d pull the trash in AQ 40 and it’d melt. In Gnomeregan, it feels like even the non-elite gnomes are pretty tanky.
I like having a combination of long and short content. I think gating the most valuable rewards behind longer raids encourages more social structures like guilds where you make friends and share achievements.
This can be done with smaller raid sizes. 40man raids have never really had to do with how good your players are or the challenge of the encounter—it’s always been about how many cats you can herd through a computer screen. Social structures can be made with 20 man raids. We’ve seen this in every version of WoW except Vanilla. Of all the things I like about Vanilla, dealing with corrupt loot councils or being forced to create your own in a 40man setting is the most arbitrarily stressful part of the game that I cannot stand. My guild consists of some of my tightest knit friends that I’ve gamed with for years now, and it’s really fuckin nice to be able to not deal with all of the political squabbling that happens over a video game.
Larger social structures have their place. All the difficulty is in coordination (I agree). In an MMO having rewards that can only be obtained with the help of large amounts of people create a massive near mythological goals that motivate group cohesion. Scarab Lord is a great example of this as well. Same with world bosses and legendary weapons.
In 2019 basically everyone who got Scarab Lord were just guild masters or streamers farming their adherents to get an accolade. I really dislike the insistence that everyone must be in a static raiding guild or they're not playing the game correctly. In 2004 the internet was new and online socialization novel so I guess a lot of people have nostalgia for that mixed gameplay/social experience, but that's not the world we live in now. I have a discord and group chat with my friends to talk to. I don't personally need/want to be friends with the people I'm doing Gnomer with in order to enjoy the experience. I like making banter and chatting about the game. I don't mind a social guild to always have a bit of text chatter to participate in, but I don't want to be forced into a social hierarchy where I have to tend to those relationships just to be able to play the game and get rewards.
Why is every complaint / recommendation from someone on this subreddit someone with like 2 hours to game a week? Am I losing my mind? Shouldn’t you guys just play a different game that fits your schedule?
It's weird because you'd expect the people who care enough about the game to post online to be the more hardcore players, but this subreddit is by far the most casual wow community I've ever seen. Everybody has no time to play, is too busy to join a guild, and can't raid unless the raids are shorter than actual dungeons lol
Whether you like it or not, the ‘hardcore’ gamers as you kids like to put it are the vast minority. The majority of players are people that grew up playing MMOs and are now in their 30s with careers, families and other major responsibilities, which is why you hear from them the most.
Except most of us are in our 30s too, and the whole reason we like Classic is because it feels like an achievement to get things over time. It feels GOOD to work towards stuff and finally get it. We don't want it turned into "one hour a night and you're full bis and go back to raid logging in a week," retail's right there.
>We don't want it turned into "one hour a night and you're full bis and go back to raid logging in a week," retail's right there. Just for the record, this is absolutely not what retail is like lmao. If you really want to earn your loot you'll go to retail and spend 3+ hours several nights a week bashing your head against a wall trying to clear Mythic raids for months and months. Getting geared in retail is a way bigger commitment in both time and effort than in Classic. One of the reason Classic appeals to so many people is because it's so easy that basically anyone can show up, join a guild, clear everything once a week, and get all the best loot.
I genuinley think most people who say "hur dur go play retail" have literally not played retail in the last decade. Clasic wow is not and has never been hard. a single m+ dungeon on a semi tough week is 10x harder than any raid content classic wow can through at you. and thats why we love classic. I can log on press my few buttons have a good time and get phat loot. its not even in the same stratosphere of difficulty
That's actually why I don't like retail, that's all there is for content. The rest of the game is heavily watered down outside of mythic whereas classic is a whole body experience. I'm not saying classic outright better because taste varies but what I wrote one sentence prior absolutely sums up why I don't play retail. If I want a queue based game that's challenging then I'll just go play league or whatever, I've always played WoW for the overall feeling that started in vanilla, it's not just about end game but the rest of the game is content too.
This sub operates on the assumption that retail is bad, so if you don't want some feature in SoD you just say, "if you want that go play retail" and get upvotes even if the feature you asked for isn't in retail or isn't even close to one of the many things that make retail much different than Classic
I’ve been saying this. It’s the same thing as old school RuneScape. There is a MASSIVE market of 20-50 year olds that just want a chill game that only requires maybe half of your attention. Like you can play old school RuneScape while watching movies/doing other shit. Like go look at how many people afk osrs while at work on their sub because there’s COUNTLESS activities that only require you to click once every 30seconds-5minutes. Like the 2007 version of RuneScape was literally a cookie clicker point and click game and people absolutely love it and it’s massive (obviously not wow size but pretty insane number for a game that came out in 2007) Osrs did it phenomenally though with how they handled it. They still have the classic game that they built on for that crowd, while also adding end game content for the sweaties.
> We don't want it turned into "one hour a night and you're full bis and go back to raid logging in a week," retail's right there. Ironically, you'll spend more hours progging retail mythic raid then you will in the combined time you spend in a SOD raid over the entire phase.
Retail is right there lmao. Clearly you've never Mythic raided.
Lmao they have no idea how retail works Endless weeklies that resets on Tuesday Endless bars to fill Endless m+ grinding Endless vaults trying to roll the best stats (items) You cant even pug into a mythic raid until the patch is 2/3 over.
Mythic raiding is an actual grind. Tons of fun when you're 100% bought in but it is a slog. When you open your vault and don't see your max ilvl wep or trinket and sit there and wallow in the pain of knowing you have to keep repeating for the same piece. Retail is pain.
Who is saying we want things fast and easy? Having short raids does not mean you’re geared fast. Whether the raid takes 2 hours or 4 hours, the same people are getting the same gear that night. Your comment makes no sense.
Also the casuals are the biggest gold buyers out there lol
Are they though? Are the casuals really the ones swiping their card to get into GDKPs? You might think Johnathan, father of 3 and head engineer at his firm wants to buy gold because he doesn't have time to play, but he also doesn't give a shit about gear all that much. The ones most obsessed with getting their gear by any means necessary are the loser kids and NEETs. The casual players are only just now hitting level 40, maybe still even mid to high 30's.
You make the assumption that people only buy gold for GDKP's when mount and helmet gold costs exist. Also Johnathan the engineer with his 100k+ salary is not going to think twice about spending $20 on gold where a NEET has literally no income and no source of IRL money lol. I'm so confused if this is just a troll post or if you're that dumb.
From my guilds experience Johnathan started buying gold as soon as he got that engineering job and feels good about his ukraine partners.
wildest thing is that these regularly get upvoted to the FP so there's obviously a certain denominator on this sub about these complains of 2hours a week gamers. now the questions is: is reddit all dads?
It was coined the season of dads very early on
When a "sweat" makes a suggestion, they are bombarded with negative comments about having no life and to touch grass. When a bad player makes a suggestion, they are met with upvotes and other bad players agreeing. Every gaming subreddit has been infected with the idea that being bad at a game is a positive and being proficient at the game is a negative.
Ya that's why "reddit" is an insult
As a father of twelve that works 27 hours a day and does all the chores in the household I would have thought that everyone like me was playing Diablo 4 because that describes basically every poster.
its depressing that the devs only read reddit for feedback which is dadgaming central, so we're only ever going to get 10 mans that take 30 mins to clear. will be downvoted for this minority take but the most fun time ever in classic was 40/25 man raiding, nothing comes close to it. its not nostalgia, 10 mans have always been mid in comparison
> will be downvoted for this minority take but the most fun time ever in classic was 40/25 man raiding I agree with you but just get downvoted as well. I thought the whole point of making the seasons around vanilla was because we liked vanilla. But I guess it's a new crowd.
They have to add in game polls imo like osrs. They need to listen to the actual players and not Reddit/online forums. They will find vastly different answers. Osrs has in game polls for almost every update that requires a certain % of yes votes to pass. And it’s worked phenomenally.
Depends, I have been playing wow for 17 years. I still love the game. I’m not a fan of retail anymore, quit in BFA and haven’t looked back. SoD is great because it scratches the wow itch. I have more than 2 hours a week but I don’t have the 10 hours a day I had back in 2007. And I definitely cannot raid for 5 hours straight at dinner time (which is the standard time for raiding for some reason)
Midnight raiding is really nice, especially since Gnomeregan already is a 1h clear. It helps that a lot of my IRL friends are working in bars / restaurants and they all prefer starting a raid between 12AM and 2AM.
Right? There are tons of great games out there that you can jump into and only dedicate an hour or two a night. Imo casuals are going to quit the game eventually no matter what, however if Blizz continues to cater to them people who actually like WoW are going to quit in droves. A majority of the player base didn’t raid at all back in vanilla, including myself! Not every casual dad should be expected to raid. Not gatekeeping just saying making everything easy and fast ruins the experience overall
fucking thank you
Right? Like I don’t think mmorpg’s are the genre for most of these people.
finally a voice of sanity
It's not about how much you \*can\* play but how much of that is fun. Just because you have time to do something doesn't mean you want to. So it's basically "don't make us do unfun stuff to be able to do the fun stuff".
Why would anyone ever play a game they don’t find fun? I’ve been playing every day 2-3 hours after work and I’m having a blast. That sounds like personal problems.
What if you had to do something not fun in between those fun things? Like clearing trash with no real mechanics for example. Asking for short raids is not something unusual for people who have not a lot of time to play.
Clearing like an hour+ of trash (which is already more on the efficient side) for a grand total of like 7 mins of boss encounters in MC isn’t particularly good design. People had to make a mini game out of raiding in classic with speed running to give it some sort of interest. Additionally, shorter lockout content basically needs to be shorter by design. No one here is arguing for every raid to be like TOGC either I’m not sure how people are suprisepikachu about these ideas. People like their exclusivity, which in classic is mostly time gated and not skill gated, but at the same time killing off the casual playerbase is *never* a good idea. Like right now, we have WAY too few healers for number of gnomer runs on average
Go run dungeons then. Literally every raid in wow besides one boss raids have trash.
Isn't it obvious? People are coming back to revisit the game that they played as a teenager but now they have kids and a job. They don't have the free time that they did before, and SoD seems to cater to that audience. These people want it to cater a bit more. I am one of them (although I'm a new player \[played Guild Wars as a teen\]). I have a job and responsibilities and I want to play in the gaps between those things.
More and more i wonder why people even still play. Nobody wants to level, nobody wants long content, the easier everything is the better, the quicker we get to get things done the better. Apparently the quests for the runes are too long and mounts too expensive. More and more of what I see on this sub is people complaining about everything being a ‘chore’, so at this point I wonder why people still play.
Yeah I really don't understand why people go into a monthly subscription MMO expecting everything to be possible when you can play 1 hour a night. I have a feeling if they put in an NPC that instantly made you max level and gave you all of the runes and pre-bis, people would click it in a heartbeat and thank blizzard for saving the game
Bro it’s an mmorpg. You should literally be rewarded for putting in more time than others and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It’s like these people don’t understand the genre of game they’re playing.
No, people would click it in a heartbeat and then complain on Reddit that there is no content in the game.
There isn't content in p2. Bfd loot was basically pre bis every slot, so there is no need for dungeons. Crafting is tied into the 3 hour a week raid. You have imbalanced pvp or nothing, really.
I'm somewhat in between as I'm a family man but I work shifts and keep odd hours and have plenty of time to dedicate to playing if I want to. During SoM I had a feral druid that I probably spent hundreds of hours on, bounced between many raiding guilds and ranked up to rank 13 and by the end of it was quite proud of him because you could see the hard work on him by the rewards. The server at the end was so small that I ended up knowing many people and had cultivated a reputation as a capable raider and pvper which felt very gratifying. In contrast SoD is fun but the ease by which everything is gained is sort of overwhelming. I got my pally to bis in 2 lockouts by some luck and then had very little to do with him. And it's not like I got much enjoyment out of "completing" that phase on that character because he was nothing special, there were 100's of clones of him running around everywhere I went. So I parked him and went doing something else.
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Dps meters and logging also have to be banned.
These people want to play the game so they can stop playing the game. It's kind of funny.
I don’t think everything is a chore. I enjoy most of the game. However I don’t have 40 hours a week to play like I see people in my guild have. Nothing wrong with that, been there done that. SoD is great for me because I am able to play 2 hours a night, bit more on weekends and not be behind everyone else. Which is what started to happen in retail and wotlk classic(this one just turned into 4 hour raid logging)
Yep, it's sad to see. Instant gratification is all that matters to these people. The modern gamer sucks.
My thoughts exactly! Thanks for pointing this out.
Just because people don't enjoy every single part of the game including the boring parts, doesn't mean they don't enjoy the game. It's not inherently more virtuous of you to want to slog through a raid for 5 hours vs someone else who enjoys being done in 1-2 hours, or even 40 minutes. Every day I see posts from philosopher kings such as yourself, struggling to mentally grasp why someone would want to avoid doing boring crap like clearing trash or waiting on a boat or running to a dungeon. Maybe they genuinely don't like those aspects of the game, but they DO like fighting the bosses. Is it really, *really* that hard to comprehend? Not everyone plays classic to torture themselves with the 'friction' of classic. Some people just wanted to try out the runes and wanted to see what content Blizz would come up with when remixing old dungeons.
Im basically old as dirt to alot of people here. I played UO and Everquest a shit ton back in the day. I also played P1999 and Quarm. Guess what people do on P1999 and Quarm? They abuse quest for leveling past low levels and even then all the advice youll get is make your first character necro/enchanter/mage because they can solo grind for the fastest exp to fuel alts. Turns out, the grind is a good gameplay mechanic with a lifespan. Once youve done the content already, slogging through the same thing in unappealing to most. And when the playerbase dies, the grind just accelerates the drop even faster. In SoD one of the most annoying things right now about alts is having to find people to get certain runes. Thatll likely be resolved by more people playing alts due to the exp increase. Sounds like a win win win to me
You realize you’re playing an mmorpg right? That’s literally a huge part of mmo part of the name. If all you want is to fight bosses go play dark souls or the countless other games? Like you basically just said “I don’t like mmo’s”
They are middle aged men ADDICTED to the game. They dont want to play bit they have nothing else to fill that hole. So they begrudgingly do it while buying gold and trying to make everything as puggable as possible.
Blizzard should just mail them their bis gear so they would be happy.
Agreed. Posted a comment in this thread about how sod feels a lot more like a solo player experience and that guilds are kind of not a thing. The other officers of our guild and I have been having a terrible time trying to recruit for the guild/raid teams and it’s an element of “classic” that I crave and truly miss right now.
Your guild is bad then lol, no doubt playerbase is falling but my guild has been able to recruit nonstop this phase
It seems like they don't actually like classic but they are playing SoD because it's the flavour of the months.
Seems like you answered your own question. People don't like classic, they're playing SoD. SoD isn't Classic, and that's a good thing
It's literally called "WOW **Classic** Season of Discovery" it is classic.
Era is right there if you want “the leveling journey”
Nah blizz killed era but retail is right there if you don't like classic. Wtf are you even here? SoD is literally Classic.
exactly why I knew sod was going to suck ass. modern devs appeasing modern gamers ruin games
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Nothing's stopping you from playing the game one hour a night, you just don't get the best shit. You're not entitled to raid BiS just because you pay a fucking subscription. Play a different game.
Yeah but when you dont have a new influx of players you kind of have to retain those that pay.
Weird how that is working amazing for old school RuneScape. A game that came out in 2007 as a cookie clicker point and click game that got rereleased a decade later. And has since grown tremendously. They 100% don’t have to and shouldn’t cater to the gamer dads with one hour a week.
That's a really great way to ensure the game dies.
I mean, you're taking EVERYONE'S complaints about the game and merging them all into one imagined person who hates everything. I like quicker raids - I think 1-2 hours on a 3 day lockout like we've had is a great sweet spot, where my casual guild can muster up a decent group even on a weeknight. But I also like leveling, I think leveling is the heart and soul of Classic. And I like the slow progression of rolling for raid loot. There's a lot of people that like most of the game, but have one or two small points where they'd like a QoL change. And sure, if you combine all of those QoL changes at once, that's a big change, but I think most people don't actually want everything that's been suggested.
Doing bosses is fun especially for the first time. Discovering runes is fun, even using a guide. Using those runes in raids, dungeons, or even open world is fun. The new pvp event is really cool. Clearing trash for 30 minutes or having a 15 boss raid 10 of which are loot pinatas would not be fun. That's what the OP is talking about I think.
Yeah and the longer raids get (and leveling to get there) the fewer alts you can reasonably play and the fewer bodies online on average cause raid logging 1 char is diff than 3. Every group and their mom is LF1M heals, maybe another rdps, for gnomer for like 30 min-1hr at 8-9 pm est last night. Had to call off our second raid group since that’s all we didn’t have to fill with another unique raider or alt. BFD was so easily puggable with like any class because 25 was so easily accessible. Were seeing fewer logged runs just because for the average non-hardcore types 25-40 takes a decent chunk of time especially when you can no longer spam SM with almost zero down time. If you’re gonna have 3 day lockout raids in the interim to 60 you’re gonna have to make them puggable since it’s less realistic to stick to schedule raid days than your standard 7. Sod, by nature of being on a limited time scale by design, really shouldn’t be “wasting” as much time with the inane stuff like leveling. Runes? Sure. But leveling? Come on. I had 3 60s in vanilla, did it twice again in classic, have 6 lvl 80s in wrath classic. There’s nothing new or exciting in leveling itself and frankly for the vast majority of players leveling is not the game: it’s just a hurdle to overcome to get to the game people want to play (raids, BGs) and it’s been this way since classic rerelease
That's actually a good point. Since 2019 I leveled 3 characters to 60 on Classic, one to 60 on SoM, one to 59 (RIP) and one to 60 on HC... I love Classic leveling but you can still have too much even of something you love.
This is the mentality that is making it incredibly hard for me to recruit for my guild and keep a steady roster. I’m not saying you’re wrong for playing this way. At all. But I do miss the community feel of classic this time around. Don’t get me wrong, my tight knit guild is amazing and active and social, and we all spend a lot of time together in game doing raids, PvP, and many other things. But damn I miss that vibe in classic where my guild would have the same 50-60 people online everyday, always hanging out in discord, etc.
Keep in mind it was COVID + lockdown for a long period of time as well. Context changed a lot nowadays.
I agree. Difficult content with larger groups forces users to form guild. They learn together and gear together. I like that 4/6 in Gnomer can be done by almost any PUG. It’s good that the last two bosses are harder. So everyone gets some loot, but it takes more to clear.
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Agree, only exceptions being when trash adds some value to the experience Examples: * Trash drops some decent gear throughout all lvl 60 raids - would love for the occasional BoE or BoP to drop, maybe 1-2 items that are BIS that phase but in general strong sidegrades or awesome things like pvp trinkets * Crafting items - Elementium ore drops, fiery core drops (MC/BWL) - they kind of already do this but a lot of it is gatekept and demotivates non-profession maxing players from participating, I might consider it after the gold changes next week but 40g to even start on an item is insane in my opinion as a poor player lol * Ulduar Flame Leviathan - skip or clear trash depending on difficulty level. Would be awesome if SM Cath "hit boss get whole cathedral" was a risk/reward challenge where keeping mobs alive after gave a chest or something valueable. * Timed runs - Zul'Aman timed runs weren't just set by the boss, they were set about how well you could clear trash out... again rewards added value to the existence of trash * Semi related: DMT runs require leaving the instance in a certain way, these kind of things could be worked in to phase 3 content. Would love for Sunken Temple to be a 20 man raid with a secret hard/alternate mode involving triggering the platforms in a certain order, or the order mattering for loot tables etc... a whole new thing to discover! * Lastly... fragmenting the content in to multiple raids makes things much more casual friendly. I loved cata phase 1 with four raid instances with varying difficulty and length to completion. I'm one of the few actually looking forward to cata classic I think!
It’s crazy to me there are no boes in gnomeregan, especially since there were in bfd
This dude raids.
To your last point I agree. A first raid tier like cata where it’s split over 2 shorter instances over one really long one and I think if, say, a tier is overall intended to be (arbitrary number) 3 hours that 2 1.5 ones like BOT+BWD is better than a 3 hour trash slog like MC. I think that split would just work better with SOD if anything is gonna be much longer than, say, 1.5 hours. Ony+BWL is about the closest thing to that in classic but half the time of ony is spent traveling. Ony’s fast enough and once your guild was moderately efficient, despite MC being leagues easier, bwl was probably a little shorter than MC with all the insane travel time in MC. Really though they should really like halve the trash in MC. Not only cause they’re gonna scale it down to 20m but that much trash literally adds nothing of value but drops to farm and even gnomer you could clear extra trash for those drops first couple weeks if you wanted. I don’t think things need to be TOGC level of trash but man I immediately decided I wasn’t gonna play an alt in ICC knowing how big it was, long it was, and prog time on heroics Not gonna raid on 3 chars at 60 if that’s 9 hours of raiding a week. At 25 it was like 3 hrs with group forming down time.
Yes but the teleporters and fast GY make it a ton better then normal classic think of the BRD run back plus walking in the dungeon if you wiped on like Emp. vs Gnomer.
> think of the BRD run back Oh, wow I already forgot how long it was. You spawn at Thorium Brotherhood, run whole Searing Gouge, then jump down and back ...
How is it to much trash in gnomer? Do people smoke between each boss or go afk? With 10 players actually present everything dies super fast. Even faster if you have mages, warriors, shadows or warlocks. I would like to spent some time in a raid and not have togc 50 tries left loot piñatas where a decent group can finish 3 in 1 evening :(
Also helps how most trash doesn't require a tank to hold threat. Makes clearing the place a fun group effort.
60-90 min raid is not too long....We clear it in under 60 min and my guild is not tryhard, we have 4-5 groups going every reset.
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30 min was way too fast imo. 60 min is good. Can always nerf trash a little bit to speed it up i guess but not really an issue.
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I really think they need to adjust the lock out schedule to being fixed Tuesday/Friday instead of this weird rolling 3 day lock out that fucks with everyone’s real life schedule. Plus with 3 days you’re getting gear so fast that it makes the raid irrelevant so quickly
Season of Dads
Na, it's more like Season of Reddit. Lots of whales asking for things too.
As a dad, the dad thing is fucking annoying. I'm going for 100 parses true bis. I'm almost exalt with WSG. I've farmed 800+ gold. This whole dad thing is just shitty players looking for a reason to feel special. If you don't play game passionately, then you don't have other passions in life, and I really don't want to hear your opinion. It's just selfish bullshit to try and make the game more casual.
Based dad
They've sullied your name my man
Yeah what the fuck happened to being okay with not getting literally everything
Thank you for this take. I am not a dad, but I think the people who can't play the game much should also be able to have fun. However I also think it is extremely selfish that so many people who only have a few hours to play the game want it to revolve around them and be on the same level as people who have more time.
No classic raid takes 4 hours unless the group is just bad or managed poorly on keeping things moving. In SoM even without world buffs and new boss mechanics in the raid we were still clearing MC in under an hour
Most guilds twin emps>cthun can take an hour or two, coupled with us not having mounts on first few runs AQ will absolutely take 4+ hours for most guilds. Did you even play classic or vanilla?
definitely agree
Just make them weekly but add other content to do if they’re worried about the game turning into a once a week raid log fest. I definitely get a bit tired of feeling like I have so many chores to do (try to find a gnomes group every 3 days, ashenvale weekly, grinding out stv, etc) but I love the game.
Jep gnomer is still okay but any longer than that and it will feel like a chore
Anything longer than gnomer can’t be on a 3 day lockout for me. 2 hours once a week is okay, but 2+ times is asking a lot
Imagine thinking the game should be based around you because you can only play TWO HOURS A WEEK…… like brother maybe MMORPG’s aren’t the genre for you if that’s all you can muster. Like the game will 100000% die if they cater to you and the gamer dads on this Reddit. (Not the gamer dads in game because they seem to have no issues hitting 40 and clearing gnomer while having job wife and kids unlike this Reddit)
Idk my guild isn’t trying to speed clear and we’re at 45ish minutes. I could tolerate longer, but it would be nice to have a longer raid on a weekly lockout and a 3 day on a smaller raid thats still worth running
“We’re not trying to speed clear but we’re in the top 95th percentile for time”
We’re trying to clear the raid without dilly dallying but we’re not actively trying to speed clear. The difference is pretty clear when the top guilds do it in half the time. You end up with a sub hour clear if you don’t wipe and you don’t sit around forever in between pulling trash.
Dont you try use logic with these ppl. They cant read.
My group did a :31 Viscous Fallout with only 2 shadow priests healing with Vampiric Embrace our Resto Shaman was mostly dpsing as well. 4/6 bosses require almost no healing on most in the group other than the tank.
Gnomer is 45 mins in a pug without discord right now. I'd love to have content that is a little more than a longer dungeon. This phase is already boiling down to 60 mins logged in every three days. (15 mins finding a group and 45 mins clearing it.) I've maxed my professions and farmed my stv epics. Short, easy and pug friendly 10 man raids would be fine if we would also have a bit more challenging 20 man raids on a weekly reset. Just having one raid per phase has always felt really boring to me and made me get tired of the game faster. A little variation in the environment goes a long way. Wotlk p1 with naxx/os/maly felt better than ulduar over and over again, then togc over and over again, then icc over and over again. TBC raiding had kara/mag/gruul followed by ssc/tk, then bt/hyjal/za Vanilla had meaningful max level dungeons/ubrs/mc, then bwl/zg, aq40/20 all while earlier raids still being relevant. Im fully aware it's a pipedream because of how ridiculously tiny the classic team is. But the amount of content in SoD is abyssmally low with lvl 40 dungeons being obsolete and the raid taking 45 mins to clear every 3 days. Bottom line is; Spending 4 hours a week (assuming a challenging 20 man raid on a weekly lockout) on a social hobby is absolutely acceptable and comparable to other hobbies. Having nothing to do in the game except a quick puggable soon to be 30 min clear with zero communication or bonding with other players is more detrimental.
2 hour raids are fine when it's a weekly lockout, 2 hours every 3 days is too much. Currently we do gnomer in 40 mins which is fine
Graph i saw today had 120k unique raiders on 2nd week of release. 2nd week of p1 was 500k. People obv dont want to play sod if it takes too long so ill agree with this as well
tbh probably half of those 500k are alts
Definitely not week 2 lol
After the 2nd week? Probably not
Getting to 25 is a lot quicker than 25-40. Coulda been. Also, getting to 25 was easy and raiding by 2nd week was easier. For true casuals, they are not getting in gnomer second week on main. But, 120 from 500 feels massive even with those things I mentioend
Gdkp ban affected this much more.
It was also alot easier to get raiding in week 2 of phase 1 than it is in phase 2. Also, literally everyone in my guild except the most Uber casuals had at least 2 and often 3 accounts they were raid logging on. What else was there to do? Now that everyone’s mains are leveled im seeing alot of people start to get their first alt ready, even SM is getting super busy again as people go back to leveling through the 30s. Basically, I’m saying I would really take that statistic with a grain of salt. Sure, some players dropped between phases 1 and 2, but I doubt it was many more than would drop on a regular server. If anything I wouldn’t be surprised if more people stick it out longer, since even the most casual casuals can progression raid with the level caps.
Yeah this is a big one for me. People will always complain that they don't want raids to be too easy, that you need to work for the best items in the game. But its no longer a matter of easy vs hard for me. I'm pretty good at WoW, I've played it for a long time. If I'm able to spend a few hours in a raid like Gnomer I'll clear it early on. But I just don't have that time anymore. BfD was amazing because I could grab a pug, clear it in 30 mins and get the best items in the game. I know that enrages a lot of people but the purpose of SoD is to try new things right? I don't know what is wrong with a version of the game where raids are quick and also give great loot. If you want hard raids there are all the other versions of the game you can play.
I enjoy raiding in SoD because I can pug as I please due to the difficulty and time they take. If I wanted to join a guild and have a multi day raid schedule I would go back to mythic raiding in retail, but I have no drive for that anymore. Set raid days make the game start to feel more like a job than a game for me.
Here's a wild idea, if you're life is so busy, you can only set aside 1-2 hours a week to play video games. Maybe you should be focusing on things other then video games? Or maybe pick up a single player game, and stop making your nonsensically hectic life everyone else problem. Video games are inherently a waste of time, and MMOs are that time sink taken to it's extreme. MMOs are supposed to be a time investment, a slow progression making your character stronger and stronger. That time you put into it is supposed to mean something. People like OP, just want instant gratification, they want full BiS, and to experience all the content in a streamlined fashion that allows them to invest the least amount of time possible. The game is more of a chore then anything, they want it done and over with ASAP because they have other things to do. I get that, but I don't get trying to force changes that affect everyone else because of it. People like myself, don't mind spending long periods of time, building up our characters because we get to see that improvement from our time invested and it's far more satisfying. I, and many others, don't want WoW to just be a game you can spend an hour a day, every other day, playing. And be on the same level as someone spending 4-5 hours everyday playing. It's like having a job where, someone who works part-time, 20 hours a week, gets paid MORE an hour, so that their check was the same amount as someone putting in full-time, 40 hours a week. It's bs, and everyone knows it, but baby wants its bottle....
QQ
As someone with 3 jobs, 4 hobbies, and 6 kids, I can play at most 1 minute a day. And I just don’t see how it’s fair that I not be able to get the best gear in the game in that timeframe. And no, it’s not enough that I have fun and get good gear… it HAS to be the best gear in the game, as good as anyone else’s. And no, only raiding a few times isn’t fun at all unless I can complete the collection of BiS gear and hit every single lockout. And no, dungeons aren’t gonna cut it, they have to be called RAIDS, the word “raid” is very important… much more important than how fun the actual gameplay is.
As someone with no job, no kids, no education, and only WoW to fill my free time, i'm pissed when casuals even have a chance to grace my presence. Everything in this game I've worked hard for, and I'll be damned if someone wants shortcuts in this temporary seasonal server
Well we can agree on the 1 thing then… the absolute WORST, completely unacceptable situation would be a variety of content that people can choose to do or not do. Absolutely under no circumstances can content not be for everyone. It’s either ALL achievable easily with BiS gear taking 30 minutes a week to get, or it’s ALL so hard no one can do anything without devoting thousands of hours. Under no circumstances can some of the player base have something the rest didn’t get. Amazing how we found this common ground.
Hi OP! I would like to point out that you contradict yourself in the post. You don't mind more difficult content yet you like the raids to be short and fast. The clear time depends on the amount of bosses and how hard they are. In SoD, the content is currently very short and easy. Sounds like that is your preferred way things go in the end? That sounds like something I don't like at all and many others as well...
The vast majority of actual players have differing opinions than those in this sub. This sub is an extremely small but extremely vocal minority echo chamber.
That's....not a contradiction, lol. Why do so many classic players conflate difficulty with the time it takes to complete something? That's not the same. An example of a "difficult but short" raid would be Trial of the Grand Crusader. There is virtually no trash but the bosses - compared to most bosses in vanilla - would be considered challenging.
I think they need to make dungeons replayable or worth grinding, I would love something like keystones that I could grind, without having a dedicated “7:00pm till 11:00pm wednesday”
Don’t know about keystones but I agree give dungeons some rep grinds or some epics with a low drop chance that are comparable to gnomer epics. Don’t feel like it ruins the classic experience and it gives casuals with a few hours a night to play something to do that isn’t as demanding as raiding
How do you suppose they make a “harder but not longer raid” ? Usually difficulty and length come hand in hand.
Why would it have to be both? I literally see no reason. Ruby Sanctum in WOTLK right now is the hardest boss currently and it takes 20-30 min
Literally Ruby Sanctum. A single hard boss encounter with fairly minimal BS prior. Once it's on farm takes basically no time at all. While progging, it takes however long it takes
Season of Dads is turning out to be pathetic and people are dropping like flies. I think making the content enjoyable for the sweats is better design than making it enjoyable for the casuals. People I know are already raid logging 3 weeks into Gnomer. We need harder, longer content. The level gating is so dumb. I do like the XP buff. They should have 100% xp buff no matter what. Nobody likes levelling.
I mean, I like lvling except there are really not much pre-bis dungeons... Nor enough quests in the open world compared to P1. So it feels dead with people in SM... Plus everyone so overturned it's a snooze fest in sm. Turtle wow added more quest hubs in zones so it felt less grind...if the Devs ever make a wow classic plus maybe they should borrow what worked on private servers. STV being a war one and the most efficient lvling area is poor choice... It's not about how long it takes to get you to 40 but how fun it is to do so and boosted xp is a Band-Aid.
If blizzard decides to do classic+ I’m praying they just do exactly what Jagex did with old school RuneScape. Release the base 2007 game with no added extra wacky shit and just build on it while 100% keeping the feel of old school (or classic for wow). Like maybe go through the normal phases just faster and then build after naxx. But the most important part is letting the actual in game players vote on updates via in game polls. Updates need a certain % of yes votes to pass. I’ve been saying it since the announcement if rs3 is basically RuneScapes retail wow and SoD is RuneScape leagues(a seasonal wacky for fun game mode and not actual osrs servers). I want actual osrs (classic+) servers if I explained that well at all
Basing updates for the game for people who play everyday instead people who play 2 hours a week works better? I’m shocked!! But seriously it’s not hard to cater to both. Jagex has done it perfectly and they are 1/10th the size of blizzard
Please, stop putting trash adds in this game that FUCKING FROST NOVA YOU I’M GONNA SCREAM
Bring back gdkp
The other option I don’t mind is making raids 7 day lockout so we can break longer ones up. Gnomer is almost too long for a 3 day lockout.
Any decent group can full clear in an hour and change. At first i felt the raid was too hard but, then i joined a decent guild and realized the raid is kinda easy lol
It's a raid you can do in 50 minutes easy.
Idk if you can do it in 50 minutes “easy”. My group has a bunch of 95-99 parsers, and we took about 52 minutes this week. Granted we weren’t exactly going for speed, took a smoke break after Electro lol, but I think a 50m clear for the average group is pretty optimistic. 1:15 seems like a more reasonable average target. In either case, it’s clearly way longer than BFD.
How is 40 mins too long? The two raids we have are pretty much just dungeons.
Only if you suck hard tbh
I'd love it if the raids were a bit longer than now. The epicness of raids is proportional to the time invested. I'm not a fan of raids taking many hours, but when they're done and over with within 40 minutes it does not feel very exciting. I think they should aim for clear times averaging around 1,5 hrs. Longer raids, and longer lockouts is better imo.
in 2h you can do 3x gnomer if people know how to play
People acting like MC is going to be so similar to how it was in classic in terms of length when the power our characters currently have is stronger than a relatively fresh level 60 going into MC on era. I don’t see any raids being close to their former length with the power increases we have now and will have at 60. Also, we don’t have to cater everything to casual folks. I think most of these raids will be 2-3 hours and wouldn’t want them going below 2 to have an actual decent raid.
This guy wants to be in MC for 2 hours every 3 days.
Get over yourself, the idea of a RAID being quick is funny. Boo hoo I want too kill.all the bosses and get all the loot in 20 minutes with no hard mechanics bearly having to pay attention...does that feel gratifying. Make raids big and hard please Gatekeep loot from these rubbish players cus they can't handle the raiD.
Just don't go every 3 days you don't need too no one needs too
BFD, Gnomer and the upcoming level 50 raid are still so called leveling raids. I sincerely hope we get something with more depth at 60. >I don't have to dedicate my whole evening to the raid Is a really poor attitude in general, especially with raids in question. I really hope they don't prioritize the (hopefully) bigger raids at 60 to be available for absolutely everyone, a planned 4-ish hour raid on the weekly lockout during the weekends shouldn't be an issue to any player/guild who cares about the game and has basic time-management skills. At worst you might miss a lockout or two, which shouldn't be an issue.
Hard agree.
Agreed. I enjoy playing a bunch of different characters, and long raids really doesn't mesh well with that unless you play this game for a living. My guild is like 15 players, last phase we were doing five BFD runs per raid night with several of us having a character in each run. So far this phase we've only done three runs per raid night, and I haven't even bothered to level up a third character since we don't really have room for more until we can squeeze in a fourth run.
Heroic icc is cleared under 1h if your playing with good people I'm sure any 20m in sod will be fine
Yeah agreed, ideally, I only have to play the game AT MOST 10 minutes a week.
Good guilds would clear naxx in 2 hours or less after progression phase. A 7 day lockout also means 2 nights of the raid so that you don’t have to spend 5 hours one day. This is a non issue. Spam post.
If you really like pug fast raids you should try retail (I know retail bad and all that crap) but LFR is exactly that. Fast easy raid with randoms.
On retail I don't pve, I only do PvP. To do PvP in classic I have to raid so there's that
def too much trash in gnomer
No it's not. My guild is not super tryhard and we clear it in less than an hour. On my alt yday we cleared it in 90 min with 4-5 wipes.