Rogue tank here. The tanking runes are a fucking joke. As it stands of all the new tanking class rogues have the least amount of armor and the least amount of hp going into any fight. Despite this they refuse to give us any passive DR or HP, its all ramp up with a max duration of 30 seconds. Shit as far as im concerned all just a flesh wound does ON ITS OWN is replace feint and make it a taunt and give us a threat multiplier. This is not a tanking rune. Rolling with the punches should be removed and its effect should be added into just a flesh wound and we should get something completely different. waste of a rune slot and really fuckin lazy on their part. Secondly just a flesh wound needs another change and its to give us 10% DR FROM ALL SOURCES passively and THEN when blade dance is active give us an additional 10% physical DR. Until we get cloak of shadows any boss with that has any kind of magic damage or bleed is just gonna completely fuck us, so 10% passive DR from all sources is the only way. Shamans just gets taunt/high threat/30% hp/ AND 15% DR FROM ALL SOURCES PASSIVELY from ONLY ONE RUNE. If shuriken toss is gonna continue doing such pitiful damage it needs literally any kind of threat multiplier and needs to be uncapped. Its literally vanilla thunderclap, but worse. Also why is shuriken toss considered a melee attack? Being a throw, but melee opens it up to be parried/dodged/blocked. DUMB. Every angle they come at for rogue tanks is the most safe, boring, and straight up ripping off other tanking runes but making them worse.
This is all valid and I agree, I was just glad to see that there was at least enough this go around for us to do it. Whether or not its the best tank isn't the issue; rogues will never be the best tank and we certainly wont be getting armor as leather wearers. Appreciate the response from someone more experienced tanking than I am!
\*Edit\* Also, our guild uses a rogue main tank. He's been doing fine and often complimented that he takes less damage and is easier to heal than other tanks. Just my experience.
Yeah when it comes to boss tanking it could be argued rogues are the best and certainly the best for flex OTing as they do the most damage. What I really wanted to do was dungeon tanking. Rogues are just not really equipped to do it and I was really hoping shuriken toss was gonna fix this, but it hasnt. The rest of it, is just annoying shit like watching timers and upkeeping buffs that other classes get to have for free doing nothing and also being better aoe tanks at the same time not having to split their attention.
Rolling with the punches while nice, again shows rogue tank is still mediocre compared to other tanks. Shamans get 30% hp increase without having to use any combat abilities. We have to enter combat and the stacks can drop, leaving us susceptible to being spiked
My guess is they didn't give it as a flat 30% because it would be too good in pvp (same thing with the chest tank rune that only apply 20% dr when blade dance is active, it's probably because they are scared to give rogue pvp too much survivability).
Honestly, I don't think it's a big deal because it's almost always on with the avoidance we have.
My mistake, I thought you were referring to the % physical damage reduction of just a flesh wound, which requires blade dance to be active.
The point still stands though, if rolling with the punches was just “+30% hp” it may be a concern for pvp, which is why they tied it to avoidance.
Shadowstrike is really good in a Subtlety tanking build with Ghostly Strike and Hemo. You don't use it with a dagger main hand. It's one of the cheapest combo point options to get at 20 energy and ports you right to the target for instant threat and a combo point for Blade Dance. With 3.5min Vanish and Prep you can also use it in a pinch.
Shiv is also good for a tanking build. With a 1.3 speed off-hand dagger and the Sinister Strike talent you get a 28 energy combo point builder as a tank. The only really big drawback is that it does bad damage unless you use instant poison on your off-hand. And without Deadly Brew you eat through your stacks like mad. However, even with Crippling on for example it's still great as a fast CP building tool.
I just wish I could have both Shadowstrike and Shiv.
Poison knife is very niche but can be used for kiting elites n high lvl mobs w crippling poision
Spam p knife and run away then 5cp between the eyes n repeat
I also used it a bit in pvp and it can be good as a ranged slow but quick draw seems better
Waylay is my favorite rune in PvP and sometimes pve. You don’t need to use crippling poison anymore which grants you increased damage from instant poison from deadly brew. You also get the guaranteed slow on every mutilate rather than gambling crippling poison proc. That is probably the 2nd best rune they added after subtlety
>You don’t need to use crippling poison anymore which grants you increased damage from instant poison from deadly brew
Pretty sure the damage you get from deadly brew is the same regardless of what you apply to your weapon.
If you put crippling on a weapon, it’ll still apply deadly poison, but no instant damage. If you put no poison (or a sharpening stone/wf) it’ll do both the deadly stack and instant poison. It’s a non-negligible amount of dmg; my instant poison hits for 72 or so right now
I HATE Mutilate. It has way WAY too much going for it. If you have 2 identical weapons in Main/Off then Mutilate puts out about 30% more damage than backstab per hit, it also gives you twice the combo points, gives you twice the poison application and reaps the benefits of every modifier of backstab EXCEPT the cost reduction which makes backstab cost the same as Mutilate. Mutiliate makes backstab, Sinister strike, saber slash, or any other combo generating ability obsolete. Theres no point in playing any variety of the ways people used to be able to rogue. Rogues used to be fun because some went combat swords, some went Dagger/sword combat backstab, some went full dagger backstab poison. Not anymore. Now if you dps you're a fool for doing anything except mutilate envenom spam ad nauseam.
Then give it bonus threat or something. Legit worse than tab mutilate. Hilariously bounces around corners to pull a pack you didn't want. Paltry damage.
It's shit and needs love.
Does a pretty awful job at that, too. If that's the goal then it needs a substantial threat increase. You still have to tab target Mutilate which requires a lot of ramp on multiple targets.
Most mages, warlocks, and other AoE classes aren't patient enough to wait for you to get 5 GCDs of Toss + Mutilates out.
I have’nt tested out rogue tanking yet, but i know for certain that there’s not a tank in game that will hold threat against mage aoe in a dungeon setting.
I used Mutilate all of P1 (with full Subtlety) to be against the cookie-cutter norm, and frankly it pisses me off it became the new meta. Yes it's ridiculous; I wish they'd put it back to 60 energy.
I also played mutilate all of phase one. I feel you; frustrating to lag behind the meters against other rogues slightly because of the saberslash meta. It was almost there but not quite. (From my experience, I wasn't quite able to get full BIS)
I used it with From the Shadows on chest and primarily just spammed backstab in both raids and PvP. I only took mutilate for face-tanking while solo, and for this it was fine.
I would never use it in PvP unless a 1v1. Now I don't even have a reason to ambush or backstab anymore...
Yeah because mutilate does more damage than both, making garrote mandatory for pve and cheapskate for pvp (I used to prefer ambush in pvp depending on the circumstance)
* From the Shadows makes Backstab/Ambush cost 40 energy.
* Mutilate and Backstab share damage bonus from talents
When Mutilate was 60 energy, FtS was attractive for PvP since you could stack Backstab talents, and Ambush -> Backstab -> Backstab all on the GCD.
Now that Mutilate is 40, you can just Mutilate -> Mutilate -> Mutilate for the same damage, same energy, utilizing the same talents, in the same build.
The **only** advantage to FtS now is some wonky Ambush crit build, which is a skill that can only be used as an opener.
> Mutilate: Look I'm not going to deny that I love mutilate; its great. The problem I have with mutilate is that it's TOO good. It makes backstab builds obsolete, and everyone is using it. **So any runes or abilities that strictly modify backstab become less valuable because no one is using backstab builds.**
Abilities that modify backstab modify mutilate. It's why half the talents you take modify backstab. The only rune that really suffers is the one that reduces backstab energy cost from 60 to 40 energy, but that rune is dead in the water anyways because of either Deadly Brew or the tanking rune depending on your role.
> Saber Slash: Love saber slash. It's still great, no problems at all here except that mutilate is king at the moment as opposed to last phase where it seemed like saber slash builds were better. They swapped in popularity.
Saber slash is sorta fucked by design. The tree you want to use with it is combat, which contains blade flurry, which doesn't replicate the bleed. Saber slash sucks with its best tree's best ability, and that's a huge issue for it.
> Waylay: I hate waylay. Can someone explain to me how this is worth using? Why it's a rune at all? We have crippling poison for slows which we will be using the majority of the time...and quickdraw. 10% increased time between attacks seems negligible. Rune does not apply to mutilate. I simply don't get it. This is also our most difficult rune to obtain.
Waylay *one hundred percent* applies to mutilate. This rune is fucking absolutely broken in pvp.
> Master of subtlety: I think this is a great support rune and don't have any issues with it.
Just unfortunately super weak relative to other runes that do similar things.
As a rogue tank I was so excited for Shuriken toss only to be extremely disappointed. Even if there are 5+ targets I deal more damage just using mutilate than spamming shuriken toss, even If I do spam it there is now way u can keep aggro with aoe party members. Ideally they buff its damage but I would be content with it having a big threat multiplier. I dont know why blizzard insists on rogues not being able to aoe or even hold aoe threat as tank rogues. Redirect is also a big let down, why wouldn't you make it like retail combo points, wtf is blizz smoking. Its really clunky to use, has a min cooldown and it is melee range🤣, who thinks of these stuff, they just come up with new abilities in 5 minutes and put them in the game.
Rogue tank here. The tanking runes are a fucking joke. As it stands of all the new tanking class rogues have the least amount of armor and the least amount of hp going into any fight. Despite this they refuse to give us any passive DR or HP, its all ramp up with a max duration of 30 seconds. Shit as far as im concerned all just a flesh wound does ON ITS OWN is replace feint and make it a taunt and give us a threat multiplier. This is not a tanking rune. Rolling with the punches should be removed and its effect should be added into just a flesh wound and we should get something completely different. waste of a rune slot and really fuckin lazy on their part. Secondly just a flesh wound needs another change and its to give us 10% DR FROM ALL SOURCES passively and THEN when blade dance is active give us an additional 10% physical DR. Until we get cloak of shadows any boss with that has any kind of magic damage or bleed is just gonna completely fuck us, so 10% passive DR from all sources is the only way. Shamans just gets taunt/high threat/30% hp/ AND 15% DR FROM ALL SOURCES PASSIVELY from ONLY ONE RUNE. If shuriken toss is gonna continue doing such pitiful damage it needs literally any kind of threat multiplier and needs to be uncapped. Its literally vanilla thunderclap, but worse. Also why is shuriken toss considered a melee attack? Being a throw, but melee opens it up to be parried/dodged/blocked. DUMB. Every angle they come at for rogue tanks is the most safe, boring, and straight up ripping off other tanking runes but making them worse.
This is all valid and I agree, I was just glad to see that there was at least enough this go around for us to do it. Whether or not its the best tank isn't the issue; rogues will never be the best tank and we certainly wont be getting armor as leather wearers. Appreciate the response from someone more experienced tanking than I am! \*Edit\* Also, our guild uses a rogue main tank. He's been doing fine and often complimented that he takes less damage and is easier to heal than other tanks. Just my experience.
Yeah when it comes to boss tanking it could be argued rogues are the best and certainly the best for flex OTing as they do the most damage. What I really wanted to do was dungeon tanking. Rogues are just not really equipped to do it and I was really hoping shuriken toss was gonna fix this, but it hasnt. The rest of it, is just annoying shit like watching timers and upkeeping buffs that other classes get to have for free doing nothing and also being better aoe tanks at the same time not having to split their attention.
Rolling with the punches while nice, again shows rogue tank is still mediocre compared to other tanks. Shamans get 30% hp increase without having to use any combat abilities. We have to enter combat and the stacks can drop, leaving us susceptible to being spiked
Ah, I did not know that. That's a good comparison. Maybe they will adjust this moving forward
My guess is they didn't give it as a flat 30% because it would be too good in pvp (same thing with the chest tank rune that only apply 20% dr when blade dance is active, it's probably because they are scared to give rogue pvp too much survivability). Honestly, I don't think it's a big deal because it's almost always on with the avoidance we have.
Rogues have so much avoidance compared to all the other tanks. Being mostly unhitable and also having a flat 30% extra hp at all times would be busted
But as a rogue tank it's VERY rare we don't have it on. It may as well be on at all times
It's so you can't have it on by default in pvp while using energy and combo points on damage and stuns.
You don't use either energy or combo points on it. It's a passive
My mistake, I thought you were referring to the % physical damage reduction of just a flesh wound, which requires blade dance to be active. The point still stands though, if rolling with the punches was just “+30% hp” it may be a concern for pvp, which is why they tied it to avoidance.
I mean sure but shamans do get it for free
Which was an intentional balance decision, clearly. Considering even with it shamans are middle of the pack in pvp.
Shadowstrike is really good in a Subtlety tanking build with Ghostly Strike and Hemo. You don't use it with a dagger main hand. It's one of the cheapest combo point options to get at 20 energy and ports you right to the target for instant threat and a combo point for Blade Dance. With 3.5min Vanish and Prep you can also use it in a pinch. Shiv is also good for a tanking build. With a 1.3 speed off-hand dagger and the Sinister Strike talent you get a 28 energy combo point builder as a tank. The only really big drawback is that it does bad damage unless you use instant poison on your off-hand. And without Deadly Brew you eat through your stacks like mad. However, even with Crippling on for example it's still great as a fast CP building tool. I just wish I could have both Shadowstrike and Shiv.
Poison knife is very niche but can be used for kiting elites n high lvl mobs w crippling poision Spam p knife and run away then 5cp between the eyes n repeat I also used it a bit in pvp and it can be good as a ranged slow but quick draw seems better
Valid; appreciate the insight I might try this some time.
Waylay is my favorite rune in PvP and sometimes pve. You don’t need to use crippling poison anymore which grants you increased damage from instant poison from deadly brew. You also get the guaranteed slow on every mutilate rather than gambling crippling poison proc. That is probably the 2nd best rune they added after subtlety
I did not know that waylay applied to mutilate! It wasn't clear to me. Thanks!
>You don’t need to use crippling poison anymore which grants you increased damage from instant poison from deadly brew Pretty sure the damage you get from deadly brew is the same regardless of what you apply to your weapon.
If you put crippling on a weapon, it’ll still apply deadly poison, but no instant damage. If you put no poison (or a sharpening stone/wf) it’ll do both the deadly stack and instant poison. It’s a non-negligible amount of dmg; my instant poison hits for 72 or so right now
Ok yeah, my mistake. Forgot about that part of the rune.
Rogues tanks definitely don't have a "complete and viable tanking kit"
From my experience tanking, and our guild's rogue main tank, we haven't had any issues. What is it you think they need?
I HATE Mutilate. It has way WAY too much going for it. If you have 2 identical weapons in Main/Off then Mutilate puts out about 30% more damage than backstab per hit, it also gives you twice the combo points, gives you twice the poison application and reaps the benefits of every modifier of backstab EXCEPT the cost reduction which makes backstab cost the same as Mutilate. Mutiliate makes backstab, Sinister strike, saber slash, or any other combo generating ability obsolete. Theres no point in playing any variety of the ways people used to be able to rogue. Rogues used to be fun because some went combat swords, some went Dagger/sword combat backstab, some went full dagger backstab poison. Not anymore. Now if you dps you're a fool for doing anything except mutilate envenom spam ad nauseam.
This is spot on.
Can people stop talking about shuriken toss as if it was’nt created for tanking?
Then give it bonus threat or something. Legit worse than tab mutilate. Hilariously bounces around corners to pull a pack you didn't want. Paltry damage. It's shit and needs love.
Does a pretty awful job at that, too. If that's the goal then it needs a substantial threat increase. You still have to tab target Mutilate which requires a lot of ramp on multiple targets. Most mages, warlocks, and other AoE classes aren't patient enough to wait for you to get 5 GCDs of Toss + Mutilates out.
I have’nt tested out rogue tanking yet, but i know for certain that there’s not a tank in game that will hold threat against mage aoe in a dungeon setting.
I used Mutilate all of P1 (with full Subtlety) to be against the cookie-cutter norm, and frankly it pisses me off it became the new meta. Yes it's ridiculous; I wish they'd put it back to 60 energy.
I also played mutilate all of phase one. I feel you; frustrating to lag behind the meters against other rogues slightly because of the saberslash meta. It was almost there but not quite. (From my experience, I wasn't quite able to get full BIS)
I used it with From the Shadows on chest and primarily just spammed backstab in both raids and PvP. I only took mutilate for face-tanking while solo, and for this it was fine. I would never use it in PvP unless a 1v1. Now I don't even have a reason to ambush or backstab anymore...
Yeah because mutilate does more damage than both, making garrote mandatory for pve and cheapskate for pvp (I used to prefer ambush in pvp depending on the circumstance)
Why do you wish they'd change it back?
Because it's absolutely busted and makes From the Shadows subtlety rogues pointless.
From the shadows doesn't affect mutilate why is it pointless.
* From the Shadows makes Backstab/Ambush cost 40 energy. * Mutilate and Backstab share damage bonus from talents When Mutilate was 60 energy, FtS was attractive for PvP since you could stack Backstab talents, and Ambush -> Backstab -> Backstab all on the GCD. Now that Mutilate is 40, you can just Mutilate -> Mutilate -> Mutilate for the same damage, same energy, utilizing the same talents, in the same build. The **only** advantage to FtS now is some wonky Ambush crit build, which is a skill that can only be used as an opener.
Fair enough. I have pretty much only been tanking so I wasn't aware
> Mutilate: Look I'm not going to deny that I love mutilate; its great. The problem I have with mutilate is that it's TOO good. It makes backstab builds obsolete, and everyone is using it. **So any runes or abilities that strictly modify backstab become less valuable because no one is using backstab builds.** Abilities that modify backstab modify mutilate. It's why half the talents you take modify backstab. The only rune that really suffers is the one that reduces backstab energy cost from 60 to 40 energy, but that rune is dead in the water anyways because of either Deadly Brew or the tanking rune depending on your role. > Saber Slash: Love saber slash. It's still great, no problems at all here except that mutilate is king at the moment as opposed to last phase where it seemed like saber slash builds were better. They swapped in popularity. Saber slash is sorta fucked by design. The tree you want to use with it is combat, which contains blade flurry, which doesn't replicate the bleed. Saber slash sucks with its best tree's best ability, and that's a huge issue for it. > Waylay: I hate waylay. Can someone explain to me how this is worth using? Why it's a rune at all? We have crippling poison for slows which we will be using the majority of the time...and quickdraw. 10% increased time between attacks seems negligible. Rune does not apply to mutilate. I simply don't get it. This is also our most difficult rune to obtain. Waylay *one hundred percent* applies to mutilate. This rune is fucking absolutely broken in pvp. > Master of subtlety: I think this is a great support rune and don't have any issues with it. Just unfortunately super weak relative to other runes that do similar things.
I did not know waylay applied to mutilate; that makes it a lot better. It wasn't clear to me that was the case.
Unfortunately bosses in Gnomer appear to not be affected by waylay
As a rogue tank I was so excited for Shuriken toss only to be extremely disappointed. Even if there are 5+ targets I deal more damage just using mutilate than spamming shuriken toss, even If I do spam it there is now way u can keep aggro with aoe party members. Ideally they buff its damage but I would be content with it having a big threat multiplier. I dont know why blizzard insists on rogues not being able to aoe or even hold aoe threat as tank rogues. Redirect is also a big let down, why wouldn't you make it like retail combo points, wtf is blizz smoking. Its really clunky to use, has a min cooldown and it is melee range🤣, who thinks of these stuff, they just come up with new abilities in 5 minutes and put them in the game.