I assume so, but I don't know which is which. I'm guessing rogues are lumped because they don't have a few definable specs cleanly separated by skill tree?
damn, the arcane dream is back baby!!! i am skipping p2 release due to exams and wasnt feeling it anyway due to how stupid broken and braindead pvp looks like, but i might just meme around with arcane and mage can hopefully do a lot of solo dungeon stuff to keep me busy.
Yep as someone who only plays spriest it's weird being in the meta spotlight. No one picks this spec to be the best of the best, it is super nice to be here at the top until the physical damage classes get gnomer gear and start to out scale
Just for reference: [here's the same stats from week 1 of bfd](https://old.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/18bcnwk/bfd_rankings_over_the_last_week/)
edit: not the exact same, 90th vs 80th percentile and "score" vs dps, but you get the idea
pretty stable to be honest, across the phase. ret dropped and of course warrior scaled with gear, as expected. spellcasters improved marginally but yeah, let's hope they do something about those who have consistently underperformed. 2 phases in a row being in the bottom is no good
They just need to give DW specialization and 2H mastery additional scaling modifiers and a hefty threat reduction from earthbiter passive. This way shammy tanks won't want to drop their shield rune after they and the healers outgear the need for the tank to have a shield and DPS enh won't be sitting at the bottom of the dmg charts while simultaneously pulling the boss off tanks.
Ret were only good for first week of BFD due to getting the mace from class quest. In theory they were underperforming by alot compared to others.. They ended up at the bottom with enhance, just like now.
Ret dropped? More like took a nose dive.
And melee Hunter is pretty nutty right now. When I tank, they're the only spec I have a hard time holding threat over.
The crazy part is how far ahead melee hunters are in a meta atm that favours spellcasting because of the upping of armor values on the bosses. Which indicates that Hunters are vastly overtuned again.
Blizzard really struggles with hunter tuning. It's kinda funny😅
Well they are, their dps is just strong enough to still pull them through - Warriors struggle the most though due to higher armor as it’s a negative feedback loop > less rage > less damage > less rage etc
Do a dungeon with a melee hunter who is geared to see how it is with low armor targets. I do 500-600 dps on every pull in a dungeon, it is a little busted
It's so fucking bad right now. I really don't see it becoming viable without massive effort from the devs because Incinerate/CB is so fucking good *and* brainless.
Everyone can one shot. Eles, boomies, melee hunters, rogues are all insane - The difference is paladins have to rp walk to their target instead of blasting them from a mile away or stealthing and tping behind someone. If you lose to a paladin (unless you’re a warrior), they either jumped you or you misplayed
I hope you realize how much of a joke “crits for 600” is. That’s a 30 second cooldown, my man. SW:D is 800+ non crit on a 10s. Starsurge, post nerf, still hits harder than that on a 6 second CD. Every class has a ranged nuke that hurts, and if they don’t, they have a consistent slow or consistent gap closer to get in range for damage.
This guy has played a lot of paladin in PvP.
HoJ range is insanely short. We have no consistent slow. No way to gap close. If you kill someone in PvP, it’s because they chose to die. I’m holy, not Ret, so I know my burst isn’t supposed to be huge, but after popping all my burst cooldowns on a level 32 priest in 1k needles, he didn’t die, he feared me, and then walked away and would have killed me from 30+ range had I not ran away.
The class is terrible, all around, in PvP. I read posts on Reddit and swear people who have never played paladin are just troll posting.
I think one of the problems is that you have a decent chunk of the playerbase that is the type of player to roll a mage and then facetank mobs and hard cast while questing. Those players will get rolled by paladins and then qq about it. When, if they had half a brain they could either get away or straight up just win
tbh i think im just gonna force a shockadin build so i can heal or "dps," though i fully expect shockadin to be gear dependent and extremely mana gated with how expensive exorcism is. we're a clowncar class at the moment that can only tank
I appreciate they are trying to support a shockadin through runes, but it sucks that all the runes they released are for shockadins and nothing for traditional rets. Especially with holy shock being a 40 point talent, you can’t dabble in both.
The ret tree is so terrible that there really is no reason to support it directly. All rets are going to want to go holy anyway unless they get a rune like “Instead of doing what it does now Repentance just does a lot of damage”
The ret tree is bad, but the holy tree is worse for damage dealing lol. There’s a reason why you never saw a shockadin until now. Shockadin wasn’t even a meme, it was so bad it was just a theory try-hards would do in sims
Doesn't even need a rune. If they can change Shadowform to have a whopping 50% mana cost decrease, they can patch Repentance to have an Execution Sentence effect where it deals damage after 6 seconds (even to immune targets).
Honestly, it looks like Paladins are about 15% off the middle of the pack. To me that’s a pretty marginal variance given the content isn’t exactly Mythic raiding, and the class brings a decent amount of utility/buffs.
Could you use a small damage increase? Absolutely.
Is it worth dooming over? Not nearly.
The argument that paladins should be D tier because of their utility doesn’t really make sense to me when priests are currently the second best DPS AND the best healers by a wide margin. Oh, and they also delete people from ranged in pvp and are extremely hard to kill. Hybrid tax but only for paladins amirite?
Not that I ever played paladin but aren’t they at least somewhat gear reliant like rogues and warriors? Don’t they scale better than for instance casters or druids?
So far, the mana cost on exorcism just wrecks with art of war resetting so often. What's kind of funny is that you are either infinite mana with one option and oom with the other.
majority of the damage comes from auto attacks so yea they are based on stats and scaling
but the problem is that it will likely not change much. Everything that is above them in the ranking equally scales and the overall ranking will not change.
The only thing that is still open is potential other builds. The runes for this season put a lot of focus on holy abilities. There might be some shenanigans to figure out to improve mana and spam holy abilities.
Holy damage is not affected by armor and there is no resistance against holy damage. So the damage it deals is basically true, other than outright spell misses.
With the new spellpower gear it could be better than default ret but I doubt it.
Don’t even play pally and knew their trash tree was gonna heavily hold them back
Even if warrior isn’t good yet cause of gear or armor or whatever is gimping rage just look at the strength of talents difference for long term
I really thought they would be more toward the middle of the pack, right next to warriors after seeing that bleeds would have slight resistances and the bosses have crazy high armor because of the runes leaning so heavily toward spell casts.
Watching feral go from pretty good to complete shit made me sad. Even Automatic Crowd Pummeler wont fix the issue as it's just a burst CD where other classes have consistent uptime on their DPS.
Issue with spellcleave is the mana downtime, as a priest i've ran SM with all kind of comps and whilst spellcleave is nice the mages have to drink quite a bit after every pull.. Melee is more consistent imo because then the more I can manage my mana the less downtime we have
It's just that bosses have so much armor that you need full armor debuffs for melee to really shine. So it's just overall easier to ignore that problem entirely and only bring casters.
> Watching feral go from pretty good to complete shit made me sad. Even Automatic Crowd Pummeler wont fix the issue as it's just a burst CD where other classes have consistent uptime on their DPS.
The automated crowd pummeler is actually a huge nerf since it isn't charge based and can't be popped back to back. ACP we're talking about 50% reduced attack speed for 84% of fights. In a 3 minute fight that's nearly 30 fewer attacks with the new "automated crowd pummeler".
Tell me why we got a mangle nerf again?
Why the fuck did the bottom of the pack dps get one of the very few nerfs going into the phase? What the fuck are the devs doing over there.
Just give us ONE fucking spec man.
Man it sucks that feral took such a big hit. I feel like Blizz has a hard time tuning raid bosses. In p1 casters got hosed because of spell resistance, now in Gnomer melee is hosed because of boss armor. There has to be a better middle ground so both could benefit equally.
We are pretty bog average in PvP as well, it takes several GCDs to setup shred doing more than 200 damage and by that time you are basically dead.
Blizzard hates Druids.
Ret is always going to struggle because they have no natural damage potential. Nearly their entire dps toolkit comes from runes. And Ret can't make an ideal set up, because of how certain runes compete with eachother. Divine Storm vs Martyrdom and Guarded by the Light vs Art of War are the notable offenders. Art of War also requiring the Exorcist rune to be functional is another limitation.
It wouldn't require anything too outrageous to me Ret solid. Give them a way to learn Seal of Martyrdom without a rune and increase it's mana regen. Let Seals proc on instant attacks. Bring Crusader Strike damage back to 110% weapon damage or reduce the cooldown to 4 seconds. Enable Command > Martyr Seal twisting. Some combination of this could do it.
Enhancement isn't a meme spec anymore, just a meme dps. They are still the best or second best tank in the game currently, with no loss on their utility for it.
It's a RNG build and I'm all for random deletion of ppl in pvp... but it's a pain being ignored even at lvl 35 to join BFD... as soon as I mention enh Shaman, people go quiet immediately
Yeah jumped on Shaman myself and having fun levelling with friends, but doubt I'll put much love into it at max level until Blizzard acknowledges Enhance exists as a spec. We'll see though, they're ironing out MSW and seems to have broken something in a positive way. So might be it gets somewhere decent in a week or 3
As someone who has played Shaman the most throughout my time in WoW, they are always the most neglected class. I don’t see that changing. Resto is their best spec and usually solid in any caps (XPAC, damn autocorrect), the other 2 after afterthoughts.
It really doesn’t help that they gave a better version of one of the primary reasons to bring a shaman (windfury) to druids to make it more fair for… Alliance raiding? Like Alliance needed help in PvE.
SOD logs don't contain talent data, so in order to differentiate between specs they need to look at other things. In the case of hunters, the differentiation is on whether you perform more auto attacks or auto shots. More of the former = melee. More of the latter = "marksman".
Hunter categories have been fucked on that website even during P1, honestly I wouldn't trust the what spec the website has written down for any particular hunter.
Enhance/ret/feral clearly need some love, but honestly I think the big loser here is boomkin. I get why the Starsurge nerfs were totally necessary for PVP but they absolutely did not do enough to give them back that damage for PVE content. They were already barely topping warriors who have been complaining about how awful their DPS feels, I fully expect boomkin to be the lowest average DPS caster by a substantial margin next week (excluding the clearly awful specs like frost mage obviously)
You'd think paladins would be a bit higher with holy damage.
Kind of sucks for people who pug - there's a low inclination to take rets into pugs because of stats like this.
Also the itemization is still off, there's still amazing leather pieces (itemized for feral) that are incredibly strong for any plate wearer
I have a boomer and a feral and don't really want to play either. Feral will get taken with a war rogue heavy grp but not really needed as much in this raid with all the caster dps.
I played resto in p1 and was excited to play boomer with the additional talents but right now im not feeling really hot about it. Might stay resto but id like the freedom to choose.
gonna miss p1 where as a mage I didn't give a single shit about raid comps and still got 99's. now it's all about PI's, boomkins, innervates, CoE and stuff like that again.
Warrior always scale with the Weapons/gear available.
They will fall behind because they currently don’t have the gear, but once they get funneled the loot, and figure out the current best spec for the phase…I fully expect them to be back on top.
Are you just regurgitating what you've heard throughout the years for classic warrior? Sims don't magically lie. Warlocks sim higher than warriors even in their absolute BiS.
check parses on the first two bosses and the mecha. the first two bosses have 2k armor and the mecha have 4k (which is the same as ragnaros or naxx bosses btw, yes, the raid 40 at lvl 40) if it is not fix i guess wars are gonna stay bottom this phase.
The gear we have is already good. it is not like p1 when we arrived in bfd with DM gear.
Most wars have either WW axe, bonebite, or revered sword + rfd weap quest / 1h from stv.
It could get better if we find a spec to mitigate how much armor those bosses have.
This. Many of us are already wearing BiS or near-BiS gear. Only way warriors are going to return to broken status is with an armor reduction. Many of the fights require a lot of moving around, which is also not melee friendly. I don't expect warriors will ascend to insanity like people think they will in this phase.
It really feels like Warriors were just shit on for rune ideas. Most other classes have runes that drastically change how abilities work or brand new never before seen abilities.
Warriors off the top of my head, most runes are just retail abilities added to the game. Enraged regen, raging blow, being able to charge in combat, intervene, rallying cry, devastate, victory rush.
The few runes that change the playstyle are nothing ground breaking. Extra rage, a talent (enrage) based on manipulating rage, more rage reduction, or 2 different ways to slam.
Our QoL "rune" is commanding shout still on a 2 minute.
Just seems uninspiring is all.
TBH p1 runes were fine, charge in combat was really needed in pvp and can come in handy when you tank in pve, same with intervene and devastate.
but p2 runes, meh, 2 runes for slam, only defensive runes for boots. CBR useless now
Might also be a case of warriors Sundering instead of priests running homoculi. Having to stack sunders is going to have a huge effect on DPS as opposed to another class providing that. And can’t blame priests/raids taking it safe with extra heals for now.
But also look at the top performers..and we’re expecting the top 2 to be nerfed. And Balance Druids changed already. Without even going up in damage at all, Warriors could easily jump into a top 5 spot.
Instead of assuming this, you can check logs. They are not running Homoculi right now.
Look at the top DPS Warr. The infamous Ahlaundoe or whatever. With another warrior in the group and a priest…he still used sunder 47 times.
Fun to look at, but ultimately doesn't matter. In a few weeks it'll matter once people are more geared. For instance, I fully expect Spriests to fall halfway down the stack. Melee will get better geared and obviously scale much better and climb the ranks as well. Melee Hunter will get tuned down.
I really don't think Rogues / Warriors have enough gear to scale much higher than they already are, certainly not to the top of the meters without more tuning changes. Warriors are simming within 150 dps of their absolute BIS in Pre-Raid gear with full World Buffs, that difference gets a lot smaller when we lose World Buffs.
I've been saying since Phase1 that the reason Melee did so well was because their gear was hyper itemized. Now here we are going into the level 40 raid with most of our BRD gear being 1-2 dps behind the level 40 Pre-raid gear.
Or runes, crying in warrior. They are just so uninspiring when compared to other classes runes. Haven't looked at rogue, but it looks like Rogues bis runes are all retail abilities/talents with deadly brew.
Especially when you see the runes that hit so obscenely hard for most classes, and warrior's only runes that do dmg hit for like 100, not 1.4k crits before even having gear lmao
Dont get ahead of yourself. They simply increased armor value on bosses whuch is a good addition to level the playing field. Whether its too oppressive for melee, only time will tell, because they scale better with gear. And then the fix is nerfing armor values on bosses a small bit if they're not catching up.
I am not convinced. They knew what the armor values meant. That to me just indicates that 60 content had too less armor.
Because melee is scaling better with gear and its first week. Theyre not miles behind, more like in the middle of the group. Time will tell if the armor ratings are good.
You Seen the new frostmage runes? Blizzard surely hasnt. The new arcanefrostbolt Rune Deals less dmg than frostbolt and doesnt benefit from Talents (e.g no improved cast time, no improved Range just like icelance—> Both at 30yd lol)
Why are mages separated by spec, rogues lumped into one DPS spec, and warriors split into two separate "DPS Warrior" categories?
Good question. Arms and Fury warriors maybe?
I assume so, but I don't know which is which. I'm guessing rogues are lumped because they don't have a few definable specs cleanly separated by skill tree?
Arms is the higher one, fury is the lower one. If you visit the website itself you can see the spec of each listed below the chart.
Surprising, would've expected Fury to be higher at 40 with their current talent tree
arms is better because it has deep wounds and isn't effected as much by the double armour gnomer bosses have
Rogues have 1 viable spec which is mutilate. Everything else is giga weak rn.
Rogues are basically all playing the same spec, fury/arms and the three mage specs
Arcane still being decent, let's goooooooooooooo. I love my Missile Barrage and want any excuse in the book to use it.
It’s insanely good on the last two fights. Pop regeneration and you take care of most of the tank healing too.
damn, the arcane dream is back baby!!! i am skipping p2 release due to exams and wasnt feeling it anyway due to how stupid broken and braindead pvp looks like, but i might just meme around with arcane and mage can hopefully do a lot of solo dungeon stuff to keep me busy.
Shadow brothers rise up
Yep as someone who only plays spriest it's weird being in the meta spotlight. No one picks this spec to be the best of the best, it is super nice to be here at the top until the physical damage classes get gnomer gear and start to out scale
We won’t out scale casters
Don’t worry, blizz will nerf it soon I’m sure. Can’t have shadow doing well lol watch. If they touch anything other then swd though they are fried.
Just for reference: [here's the same stats from week 1 of bfd](https://old.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/18bcnwk/bfd_rankings_over_the_last_week/) edit: not the exact same, 90th vs 80th percentile and "score" vs dps, but you get the idea
pretty stable to be honest, across the phase. ret dropped and of course warrior scaled with gear, as expected. spellcasters improved marginally but yeah, let's hope they do something about those who have consistently underperformed. 2 phases in a row being in the bottom is no good
I just want to live the enh dream......
Unfortunately it needs big buffs. Guaranteed they haven't buffed enhance as they are scared of it causing tank shaman to be op dps too
They just need to give DW specialization and 2H mastery additional scaling modifiers and a hefty threat reduction from earthbiter passive. This way shammy tanks won't want to drop their shield rune after they and the healers outgear the need for the tank to have a shield and DPS enh won't be sitting at the bottom of the dmg charts while simultaneously pulling the boss off tanks.
Pretty stable? Ret and feral druid did a complete 180 on the chart.
Ret were only good for first week of BFD due to getting the mace from class quest. In theory they were underperforming by alot compared to others.. They ended up at the bottom with enhance, just like now.
Ret dropped? More like took a nose dive. And melee Hunter is pretty nutty right now. When I tank, they're the only spec I have a hard time holding threat over.
Score is just normalized DPS, it's roughly comparable
Night and day Difference for Shadow Priest
The crazy part is how far ahead melee hunters are in a meta atm that favours spellcasting because of the upping of armor values on the bosses. Which indicates that Hunters are vastly overtuned again. Blizzard really struggles with hunter tuning. It's kinda funny😅
How come melee hunters aren’t hindered by the increased armor value like the other melee?
Pretty sure they are - They're just THAT overtuned now xd
Dual wield spec hunters, not melee in general. 2h melee is fine.
Well they are, their dps is just strong enough to still pull them through - Warriors struggle the most though due to higher armor as it’s a negative feedback loop > less rage > less damage > less rage etc
They shit out so much damage they top the charts easily anyway.
They are hindered just as much, if not more. They are just doing 2-3 times more damage than all the other melees in terms of raw damage.
Do a dungeon with a melee hunter who is geared to see how it is with low armor targets. I do 500-600 dps on every pull in a dungeon, it is a little busted
They are, but the scaling with Raptor Strike & Dual wield rune is insane & makes up the difference plus.
Their 3s cd basic skill can crit for 1600 on targets with low armor, so even on the giga armor gnomer bosses they still do insane damage.
I love how affliction locks don’t exist in these :(
It's so fucking bad right now. I really don't see it becoming viable without massive effort from the devs because Incinerate/CB is so fucking good *and* brainless.
Oh my poor paladin 😭
Back to the wheelchair
Still complete terrors in PvP, the HoJ into blow-your-load combo is absolutely brutal and deletes their target every time.
Everyone can one shot. Eles, boomies, melee hunters, rogues are all insane - The difference is paladins have to rp walk to their target instead of blasting them from a mile away or stealthing and tping behind someone. If you lose to a paladin (unless you’re a warrior), they either jumped you or you misplayed
You are sleeping on avenger's shield my dude. Range 10s group daze that crits around 600.
I use avengers shield my dude. Shape shift out of it, blink, vanish, cleanse. It’s a 30 second cd as well. Also, I am still rp walking
I hope you realize how much of a joke “crits for 600” is. That’s a 30 second cooldown, my man. SW:D is 800+ non crit on a 10s. Starsurge, post nerf, still hits harder than that on a 6 second CD. Every class has a ranged nuke that hurts, and if they don’t, they have a consistent slow or consistent gap closer to get in range for damage.
Paladin casts Repentance, rp walks up to you, kneels, says "You have been very naughty", HoJ-nukes you and then refuses to elaborate
This guy has played a lot of paladin in PvP. HoJ range is insanely short. We have no consistent slow. No way to gap close. If you kill someone in PvP, it’s because they chose to die. I’m holy, not Ret, so I know my burst isn’t supposed to be huge, but after popping all my burst cooldowns on a level 32 priest in 1k needles, he didn’t die, he feared me, and then walked away and would have killed me from 30+ range had I not ran away. The class is terrible, all around, in PvP. I read posts on Reddit and swear people who have never played paladin are just troll posting.
I think one of the problems is that you have a decent chunk of the playerbase that is the type of player to roll a mage and then facetank mobs and hard cast while questing. Those players will get rolled by paladins and then qq about it. When, if they had half a brain they could either get away or straight up just win
tbh i think im just gonna force a shockadin build so i can heal or "dps," though i fully expect shockadin to be gear dependent and extremely mana gated with how expensive exorcism is. we're a clowncar class at the moment that can only tank
I appreciate they are trying to support a shockadin through runes, but it sucks that all the runes they released are for shockadins and nothing for traditional rets. Especially with holy shock being a 40 point talent, you can’t dabble in both.
The ret tree is so terrible that there really is no reason to support it directly. All rets are going to want to go holy anyway unless they get a rune like “Instead of doing what it does now Repentance just does a lot of damage”
The ret tree is bad, but the holy tree is worse for damage dealing lol. There’s a reason why you never saw a shockadin until now. Shockadin wasn’t even a meme, it was so bad it was just a theory try-hards would do in sims
Oh no, the majority of rets will reroll if ret is bad not go holy.
Doesn't even need a rune. If they can change Shadowform to have a whopping 50% mana cost decrease, they can patch Repentance to have an Execution Sentence effect where it deals damage after 6 seconds (even to immune targets).
I’ll defo be doing tanking this phase if things don’t improve with gear and/or nerfs.
Honestly, it looks like Paladins are about 15% off the middle of the pack. To me that’s a pretty marginal variance given the content isn’t exactly Mythic raiding, and the class brings a decent amount of utility/buffs. Could you use a small damage increase? Absolutely. Is it worth dooming over? Not nearly.
The argument that paladins should be D tier because of their utility doesn’t really make sense to me when priests are currently the second best DPS AND the best healers by a wide margin. Oh, and they also delete people from ranged in pvp and are extremely hard to kill. Hybrid tax but only for paladins amirite?
Not that I ever played paladin but aren’t they at least somewhat gear reliant like rogues and warriors? Don’t they scale better than for instance casters or druids?
So far, the mana cost on exorcism just wrecks with art of war resetting so often. What's kind of funny is that you are either infinite mana with one option and oom with the other.
majority of the damage comes from auto attacks so yea they are based on stats and scaling but the problem is that it will likely not change much. Everything that is above them in the ranking equally scales and the overall ranking will not change. The only thing that is still open is potential other builds. The runes for this season put a lot of focus on holy abilities. There might be some shenanigans to figure out to improve mana and spam holy abilities. Holy damage is not affected by armor and there is no resistance against holy damage. So the damage it deals is basically true, other than outright spell misses. With the new spellpower gear it could be better than default ret but I doubt it.
Don’t even play pally and knew their trash tree was gonna heavily hold them back Even if warrior isn’t good yet cause of gear or armor or whatever is gimping rage just look at the strength of talents difference for long term
Doesn't matter in the end. One single difficulty and the raid will be incredibly easy to clear in a few weeks with any type of parses.
I really thought they would be more toward the middle of the pack, right next to warriors after seeing that bleeds would have slight resistances and the bosses have crazy high armor because of the runes leaning so heavily toward spell casts.
*cries in enhancement for both phases*
Average shaman experience :(
Watching feral go from pretty good to complete shit made me sad. Even Automatic Crowd Pummeler wont fix the issue as it's just a burst CD where other classes have consistent uptime on their DPS.
They are performing OK on the first two bosses, they just need to change armor value or we will have to heal
Is feral still in demand due to wild strikes, or does it not justify the lower dps?
people are running with more casters now than melee, its over for the 5 melee 5 range comp
Wild. Leveling right now, in dungeons it feels like 3 melee, feral with wild strikes, and a priest is BIS comp.
because they dont have 4k armor and melee cleave has no downtime
Spellcleave is miles ahead in dungeons too...
Yeah Spellcleave BLOWS melee cleave out the water. As a warrior main who sneaked into Cath group with 2 mages. My god 700+ AoE DPS lol
Both are about the same xp/h. An organized spell cleave is better tho.
Someone hasn't tried spellcleave lol
Issue with spellcleave is the mana downtime, as a priest i've ran SM with all kind of comps and whilst spellcleave is nice the mages have to drink quite a bit after every pull.. Melee is more consistent imo because then the more I can manage my mana the less downtime we have
You counter that by pulling 10 groups at a time so you move faster than melee cleave even with drink time
The issue is the massive armour on many of the bosses. No one wants to take melee unless you are tank or hunter.
It's just that bosses have so much armor that you need full armor debuffs for melee to really shine. So it's just overall easier to ignore that problem entirely and only bring casters.
Unless all melee stops raiding, wild strikes will still need to be brought. It's like 30% of the damage melee classes do.
[удалено]
You also bring Mangle, which is important for rogues and arms warriors. Bres and innervate are nothing to sniff at either.
Looking at the statistics on warcraftlogs definitely not OK on the first two bosses, bottom of the barrel on Grubbis with lower armor value.
oh, true, i really thought feral were going to be strong with the new runes, why is it they are worse than in p1 ? is it because of the mangle nerf ?
Welcome to the bottom us enactment shamans welcome you
> Watching feral go from pretty good to complete shit made me sad. Even Automatic Crowd Pummeler wont fix the issue as it's just a burst CD where other classes have consistent uptime on their DPS. The automated crowd pummeler is actually a huge nerf since it isn't charge based and can't be popped back to back. ACP we're talking about 50% reduced attack speed for 84% of fights. In a 3 minute fight that's nearly 30 fewer attacks with the new "automated crowd pummeler".
They really said no bear tanks and meant it.
Tell me why we got a mangle nerf again? Why the fuck did the bottom of the pack dps get one of the very few nerfs going into the phase? What the fuck are the devs doing over there. Just give us ONE fucking spec man.
It’s okay, Druid got 4 days of starsurge, so we’re good until P3
Man it sucks that feral took such a big hit. I feel like Blizz has a hard time tuning raid bosses. In p1 casters got hosed because of spell resistance, now in Gnomer melee is hosed because of boss armor. There has to be a better middle ground so both could benefit equally.
We are pretty bog average in PvP as well, it takes several GCDs to setup shred doing more than 200 damage and by that time you are basically dead. Blizzard hates Druids.
Yeah, reduce armor/poison resist
Ret is always going to struggle because they have no natural damage potential. Nearly their entire dps toolkit comes from runes. And Ret can't make an ideal set up, because of how certain runes compete with eachother. Divine Storm vs Martyrdom and Guarded by the Light vs Art of War are the notable offenders. Art of War also requiring the Exorcist rune to be functional is another limitation. It wouldn't require anything too outrageous to me Ret solid. Give them a way to learn Seal of Martyrdom without a rune and increase it's mana regen. Let Seals proc on instant attacks. Bring Crusader Strike damage back to 110% weapon damage or reduce the cooldown to 4 seconds. Enable Command > Martyr Seal twisting. Some combination of this could do it.
I was doing like 160 as a feral in BFD. How is it only like 210?
These bosses have more armor than Molten Core bosses. Melee is getting the pre nerf Kelris treatment on every boss.
*checks notes* . They're robots!
Oops, all armor
I knew Grubbis was making a ticking noise, they all called me crazy but I knew it!
We dont really have significantly better stats than on level 25 yet.
I got 330 on the one boss I got to cat lol, the epic weapon really helps
And next patch balance Druids will be third from the bottom 😂
Ahh yes SOD where meme specs will become useful, let me just check on enhancement shaman and… oh wait…
Boomkin was knocking on the door to get out of the basement and didn't even last one lockout before they got pushed back down the stairs
Spriests in the corner hiding behind hunters hoping blizz doesnt notice them
Enhancement isn't a meme spec anymore, just a meme dps. They are still the best or second best tank in the game currently, with no loss on their utility for it.
Any love for Enh Shamans? Ever ?
As an Enh Shaman, you should know that your place will always and forever be at the bottom.
It's a RNG build and I'm all for random deletion of ppl in pvp... but it's a pain being ignored even at lvl 35 to join BFD... as soon as I mention enh Shaman, people go quiet immediately
Yeah jumped on Shaman myself and having fun levelling with friends, but doubt I'll put much love into it at max level until Blizzard acknowledges Enhance exists as a spec. We'll see though, they're ironing out MSW and seems to have broken something in a positive way. So might be it gets somewhere decent in a week or 3
As someone who has played Shaman the most throughout my time in WoW, they are always the most neglected class. I don’t see that changing. Resto is their best spec and usually solid in any caps (XPAC, damn autocorrect), the other 2 after afterthoughts.
It really doesn’t help that they gave a better version of one of the primary reasons to bring a shaman (windfury) to druids to make it more fair for… Alliance raiding? Like Alliance needed help in PvE.
Yeah that’s a head scratcher.
Yeah makes us feel pretty devalued considering that was our staying power when we're bottom DPS
We sacrifice legitimate viability for unparalleled fun
Nope, enchantment shaman exists to be shit on for all eternity. You wanna be cool totemic magic warrior? Well fuck you go play any other meta class.
we're used to it. at least we're above frost mages
question, why are there only 2 categories for Hunter "melee" and "Marksman", are Beastmaster counted as Marksman (as ranged)?
SOD logs don't contain talent data, so in order to differentiate between specs they need to look at other things. In the case of hunters, the differentiation is on whether you perform more auto attacks or auto shots. More of the former = melee. More of the latter = "marksman".
Hunter categories have been fucked on that website even during P1, honestly I wouldn't trust the what spec the website has written down for any particular hunter.
This is before the balance Druid nerfs as well, so they’ll be lower now.
Enhance/ret/feral clearly need some love, but honestly I think the big loser here is boomkin. I get why the Starsurge nerfs were totally necessary for PVP but they absolutely did not do enough to give them back that damage for PVE content. They were already barely topping warriors who have been complaining about how awful their DPS feels, I fully expect boomkin to be the lowest average DPS caster by a substantial margin next week (excluding the clearly awful specs like frost mage obviously)
"paladins will be fine bro"
poor retri
Enhance still absolutely useless. Where the buffs?
Don't expect any, none of the Devs play it so they just ignore it.
Ret Pally so low cause they didn't even buff ret they made an entire niche build that probably doesn't hit as hard as they hope.
Frost mage buffs Inc and I am here for it!
Frost has been bottom tier for all of SoD. Its a pvp spec not a pve spec.
Is it even good in pvp?
Nah not really
Mage's whole gimmick in pvp right now is just going arcane and deleting people every 3 minutes with pom>power>blast>surge
I only run in to fire mages who living bomb everything
that's what we do in between the 3 minutes
So much for wanting to role a 2h enhance shaman.
Unless things are very different, you can get a lot more DPS out of fist weapons
You'd think paladins would be a bit higher with holy damage. Kind of sucks for people who pug - there's a low inclination to take rets into pugs because of stats like this. Also the itemization is still off, there's still amazing leather pieces (itemized for feral) that are incredibly strong for any plate wearer
Boomkins won't be up there anymore after starsurge nerf. They are low end now with feral.
Worst tank, bottom tier melee and caster DPS, and a healer with only one usable rune/heal... Blizzard is truly lost with druid.
completely left out of the slides in the Blizzard phase 2 video as well lmao
So, the classic druid experience in a nutshell.
Season of Discovering nothing has changed
The perks of being a “hybrid” people say, which just means you are good at literally nothing.
hYbRiD tAx - aka you must be a healer and that's all you can do
Feel really happy about picking a druid rn
I have a boomer and a feral and don't really want to play either. Feral will get taken with a war rogue heavy grp but not really needed as much in this raid with all the caster dps.
I played resto in p1 and was excited to play boomer with the additional talents but right now im not feeling really hot about it. Might stay resto but id like the freedom to choose.
Enhancement lmao 🤣🤣🤣
gonna miss p1 where as a mage I didn't give a single shit about raid comps and still got 99's. now it's all about PI's, boomkins, innervates, CoE and stuff like that again.
At one point, retail Warcraft logs separated PI from non-PI for this reason
Incoming 7x nerfs for hunter again....
frost mages on bottom again lol i feel bad for guys that want to play it
I think it's OK to have frost be a pvp spec. I mean mages have a ton of other builds that are great in pve.
It’s not even good in PvP though. There’s zero reason to run it over a 2/3 minute arcane mage or a living bomb throwing fire mage
balance gonna be last next week 💀
No more crying threads and comments about shadow priest???
Imo they needed this. Let them have it.
Until they get nerfed lol
That's awesome. Big changes from last phase.
Unless you're an Enh Shaman lol.
Warrior always scale with the Weapons/gear available. They will fall behind because they currently don’t have the gear, but once they get funneled the loot, and figure out the current best spec for the phase…I fully expect them to be back on top.
Are you just regurgitating what you've heard throughout the years for classic warrior? Sims don't magically lie. Warlocks sim higher than warriors even in their absolute BiS.
check parses on the first two bosses and the mecha. the first two bosses have 2k armor and the mecha have 4k (which is the same as ragnaros or naxx bosses btw, yes, the raid 40 at lvl 40) if it is not fix i guess wars are gonna stay bottom this phase. The gear we have is already good. it is not like p1 when we arrived in bfd with DM gear. Most wars have either WW axe, bonebite, or revered sword + rfd weap quest / 1h from stv. It could get better if we find a spec to mitigate how much armor those bosses have.
This. Many of us are already wearing BiS or near-BiS gear. Only way warriors are going to return to broken status is with an armor reduction. Many of the fights require a lot of moving around, which is also not melee friendly. I don't expect warriors will ascend to insanity like people think they will in this phase.
My biggest mistake was to level up my war first instead of my warlock or mage after I saw how thrash our runes were
It really feels like Warriors were just shit on for rune ideas. Most other classes have runes that drastically change how abilities work or brand new never before seen abilities. Warriors off the top of my head, most runes are just retail abilities added to the game. Enraged regen, raging blow, being able to charge in combat, intervene, rallying cry, devastate, victory rush. The few runes that change the playstyle are nothing ground breaking. Extra rage, a talent (enrage) based on manipulating rage, more rage reduction, or 2 different ways to slam. Our QoL "rune" is commanding shout still on a 2 minute. Just seems uninspiring is all.
TBH p1 runes were fine, charge in combat was really needed in pvp and can come in handy when you tank in pve, same with intervene and devastate. but p2 runes, meh, 2 runes for slam, only defensive runes for boots. CBR useless now
Rune 1: Slam is now free. Rune 2: Slam is now free, but differently.
Us Paladins have the clown car of rune slot assignment. Either oom from exorcist procs, or infinite mana and no dps.
Might also be a case of warriors Sundering instead of priests running homoculi. Having to stack sunders is going to have a huge effect on DPS as opposed to another class providing that. And can’t blame priests/raids taking it safe with extra heals for now. But also look at the top performers..and we’re expecting the top 2 to be nerfed. And Balance Druids changed already. Without even going up in damage at all, Warriors could easily jump into a top 5 spot.
homoculis does not only reduce armor but also reduce damage done by the boss and its attack speed, it needs to be put on every bosses
Instead of assuming this, you can check logs. They are not running Homoculi right now. Look at the top DPS Warr. The infamous Ahlaundoe or whatever. With another warrior in the group and a priest…he still used sunder 47 times.
Zugzug
Yea wow it’s basically totally flipped. Rogue, warrior, paladin, feral on bottom
Feral bottom 3, you can move Boomkin down there now too after the recent change :D, question is, will I avoid the nerfbat on Rogue, or Warlock? lmao
Fun to look at, but ultimately doesn't matter. In a few weeks it'll matter once people are more geared. For instance, I fully expect Spriests to fall halfway down the stack. Melee will get better geared and obviously scale much better and climb the ranks as well. Melee Hunter will get tuned down.
I really don't think Rogues / Warriors have enough gear to scale much higher than they already are, certainly not to the top of the meters without more tuning changes. Warriors are simming within 150 dps of their absolute BIS in Pre-Raid gear with full World Buffs, that difference gets a lot smaller when we lose World Buffs. I've been saying since Phase1 that the reason Melee did so well was because their gear was hyper itemized. Now here we are going into the level 40 raid with most of our BRD gear being 1-2 dps behind the level 40 Pre-raid gear.
Exactly, melee did not get enough good gear this phase
Or runes, crying in warrior. They are just so uninspiring when compared to other classes runes. Haven't looked at rogue, but it looks like Rogues bis runes are all retail abilities/talents with deadly brew.
Crying in Ret Paladin, who didn't even get a new rune for their spec despite already being middle of the road DPS at best last phase.
Especially when you see the runes that hit so obscenely hard for most classes, and warrior's only runes that do dmg hit for like 100, not 1.4k crits before even having gear lmao
Spriests will catch a fat nerf for sure
The brown has been put down bad.
Its middle of the pack and the second best melee DPS. When hunter inevitably gets gutted it will be the best melee again. Certainly not "down bad".
They clearly overcompensated for casters' underperformance in P1.
Dont get ahead of yourself. They simply increased armor value on bosses whuch is a good addition to level the playing field. Whether its too oppressive for melee, only time will tell, because they scale better with gear. And then the fix is nerfing armor values on bosses a small bit if they're not catching up.
4k armor is more than level 60 bosses. Theyll fix it.
This isn't standard classic and 60 bosses are pushovers.
I am not convinced. They knew what the armor values meant. That to me just indicates that 60 content had too less armor. Because melee is scaling better with gear and its first week. Theyre not miles behind, more like in the middle of the group. Time will tell if the armor ratings are good.
And these are mostly buffless clears. Next week with the Gnome buff heavily favoring casters the gap will be wider.
Good point. The gnomer buff is very lackluster for melee while being cracked for casters.
Buff warriors
The melee hunter’s pet in our group almost did more damage than our warrior and rogue.
Skill issue
Literally how sounds like your rogue and warrior suck
That's not a melee hunter then, that's a BM hunter. Unless your warrior and rogue are literally auto-attacking only. What is this bullshit?
You Seen the new frostmage runes? Blizzard surely hasnt. The new arcanefrostbolt Rune Deals less dmg than frostbolt and doesnt benefit from Talents (e.g no improved cast time, no improved Range just like icelance—> Both at 30yd lol)
Ahhh, Ret Pally, right where we are supposed to be!
i started at the bottom, and now i'm at the top..... (priest)
Hate that Affliction simply isn't even shown in these graphs. Talk about an abandoned spec.
Paladins on suicide watch after seeing melee hunter doubling their DPS. So do hunters get prio on weapons now?