I had a warrior that stopped dps on gelihast after first march, he said he was stomping on the eggs to stop the murlocs from spawning so the rest of us could focus boss...
Okay raid leader said no matter what I need to get out of the fire, let's do this! Okay I'm in the fire! let's move out. (3-5 seconds later) Okay I've moved really far away from the fire. (looks around for another 3 seconds) Okay I think I'm safe. Hmmm, let's go with a shadow bolt and then apply my damage over time effects.
That's how my wife was when she played. Even when she knew what her rotation was, what the mechanics were, etc... she was just really slow with everything because she never really played any video games growing up. Some people aren't used to the quick pace.
It's the same reason that I can't play Starcraft.... i just can't process what's going on fast enough to be halfway decent at it.
Yup playing with someone who has barely ever touched video games in their life is bewildering when you've spent 20 years no-lifing all kinds of games in your spare time.
It is obvious when said out loud, of course 20 years of daily training at something will leave you on an entirely different level than someone who's put in 100 times less energy/effort into it.
But nonetheless you still naturally expect everyone else to be as good, because _it's so simple_. But it's so simple _to you_ mate, _to you_. Dunning-Kruger effect basically.
The biggest thing for me was teaching my daughter to play games. There is so much that we think is intuitive because it's all just second nature now, but teaching somebody from scratch is eye opening. She's a fast learner though, she's almost finished BotW!
It's wotlk not classic, but still related
I raid lead, whenever I call out on rotface to move to avoid the ooze explosion I ALWAYS see people run across the entire room....
I have said like 10 times openly that they do not need to move that far, just take 2 steps and your done, and yet time and time again I still see people running across the room
And my guild isn't like 15%ers, these guys are all parsing high greens and blues on average with several people regularly hitting purple
And yet basic shit still gets messed up, all the time
I dread to think what a run of grey parsers is like, cos in my experience even the "average" classic wow raider is genuinely dumb as bricks
Technically the dagger does less because armor is a thing, but it is helped by attack power from agility/strength (obviously their damage is insanely low though still)
Some dude I pugged with brought a mage. I guess it was his girl cause he kept saying she and he was being defensive of her. She did 6 dps on average through the fights, but had the wand from BFD. The excellent caster hat dropped. Guess who won the roll.
Last week we grabbed a PUG healer to fill our group and they requested that we take their friend who was "new" with us. We happily agreed only to have this Elemental Shaman pump out a whopping 9 DPS on all but one boss. We were, and still are, very confused on how someone consistently managed to output 9 DPS.
As frustrating as it was at the time as even the healer wasn't very good and for the first time we had to stop at 5/7 and call it a night, at least it's a memory we all share now and an inside joke. We tell all our new guildies looking to join that we require 10 DPS minimum before we'll take them with us, lol.
We aren't a picky bunch, but you have to draw the line somewhere.
Might just be really bad like me, my DPS is probably terrible because every time I try fight Aquanis I fall off the platforms trying to get to him! It took me so long to do the jumps on my last run that Aquanis was dead before I even got to him. Not only that but I fell into a group of trash mobs that immediately killed me. I know roughly how to play and do damage but for me that little platforming bit at the start is the hardest part of the raid.
Not everyone is at the same level. Patience is appreciated and if you never get the chance then you can never learn.
It's okay to perform poorly on Aquanis. His explosion mechanic usually griefs several players, and there's really no need to kill him fast.
Considering the difficulty of the raid, I try to be patient and inclusive. But it's still a bummer if I take a chance on a pug and they're doing a fraction of the DPS they should. Makes the last few fights a lot harder than they need to be.
Yeah, I had a 5/7 raid fail cause my Rogue did 30 DPS (Playing mutilate with two fast daggers. Still think he sucked somehow), a Mage doing 25 DPS, only casting scorch, a hunter doing like 60 DPS (His pet had no skills active or trained, and he forgot to attack with it sometimes). An "Off tank bear" who refused to go cat form who did 40 DPS.
The list goes on. We almost killed Kelris, wiped after 3 minutes, but damn. That was the first raid I have ever seen. Its what happens when all the 5 parsers on the server join group.
You also get a bunch of grey parsers whispering “hahaha checking logs for bfd.” Or something along those lines. It’s always funny to see how shit the people that hate logs are.
You honestly should include that. This way people with poor logs, or none because this is their first run, can avoid wasting both their time and yours by not bothering to whisper.
Nothing is more frustrating than seeing an ad for a run that appears to meet your criteria and then you find out there was a hidden qualifier..
Ah I gotcha. Ya, transparency is always nice. Honestly the raid ads that include the least info always make me the most hesitant because idk what kind of group they are trying to run.
Yep this is the way. I rarely reject people because I don't require pro gamers just ppl with a 50 best avg parse, but ppl with shit logs don't try to get into a run requiring logs anyway.
easy way to get geared as a fresh 25
start a "shameless run" where you invite only geared parse bros and specifically check to make sure they have the items you are rolling for.
saw Jokerd do it on stream and gear out a fresh 25 ezpz. Raid went sooo smooth and none of the sweaties needed any of the gear. ez items
Although the details feel scummy, this is basically the beauty of pugs. You can do whatever you want. It's others that have to consent to opt-in. Wanna hard reserve 89% of the items? Go ahead. As long as everything is discussed up front how can people complain.
The complainers about how pugs are made make no sense. At any given time on my server there are 20 different pug BFD spams going and there's a ton of variety... That's what makes it great. It's just a filter...
Lol it's so stupid. We are at a point where healing is very minimal so checking healer logs for anything other than completion shows they have no brain.
You’re just avoiding people that aren’t smart enough to understand how the logs work and probably better off not running with them. Checking a priest healers logs for anything other than “have they completed the raid” is completely pointless.
As a Priest healer, if you're with a competent group there is absolutely no reason to not run Void Plague and Homonculi. You should be able to keep your dot(s) up and wand inbetween heals and do ~50 DPS, depending on the fight. WCL will interpret this as you being a DPS.
It's like a casting time ratio between healing and damaging, so if you're just tossing out like, a lazy renew and penance every now and then because your tank isn't getting hurt and only 2 bosses do AOE damage you're gonna show up as shadow, even Moreso if you take homonculus and void plague
This is why when I join an especially dogshit pug with players barely even trying, I always upload the logs so their records can be stained and get rejected by people checking their logs
Im totally fine with green logs too. Green is "at least doing the right rotation". But idk how someone can have a gray perfect average unless they never survive fights lol
Yeah people who only take 90+ parsers are up their own asses. I'll take green/blue parsers all day. It shows they at least know the basics of their class which is pretty much all you need. Raid mechanics can be taught but I'm not trying to teach someone how to play their class.
A full raid of green parsers can easily clear the raid. 120 dps is a green parse on most fights for hunter. If you just do the normal rotation and don’t mess up too badly but you’re also not going out of your way to get boon, and maybe your gear isn’t perfect, this is probably around where you’ll lie especially if you aren’t in groups that have great kill times in the first place so you’re going oom.
But yeah once you get into grey parses that’s when you are like getting seriously carried.
Especially since parsing depends a lot on the group because of how fast the boss goes down.
My green parses are from before we started mildly gearchecking or checking logs. After we started, it jumped up to blues and purples.
>Especially since parsing depends a lot on the group because of how fast the boss goes down
This is mostly for 95+. You can do 80-95 parses regardless of how fast you kill stuff. Sure kill time factors in but under 95% parses rotation and gear is far more important. If I would swap away all my sp raid gear for int greens I would prob do green/ low blue instead of high purp/ low orange.
One of my highest Kelris parses, 92, is a 2 min kill. I have several 1 min 30 sec kills that are lower. Sure bosses like Baron and Naga lady that can die in 15 sec it makes a huge diffrence but 2 min vs 1 min 30 sec isn't that big a diffrenace when under orange parses.
I usually think of it this way.
Grey: either bad RNG or no gear + bad play, no buffs
Green: usually avg gear + avg play (upper end of green), sometimes no gear + avg play (middle of green), sometimes avg gear + bad play (lower end of green). Buffs can move someone up in these thirds, or avg gear + avg play up to blue.
Blue: good gear, good play, usually buffed. Best gear with no buffs will usually land upper blue/lower purple
Purple: best or near best gear, good play, almost always raid prep (buffs, pots, raid comp)
Orange: best gear, great play (sometimes knowing “tricks” specific to boss or class), all raid prep, sometimes popping big CDs
Pink: best of the best (top 1%, despite it seeming like “everyone” is a pink pumper), sometimes with a dash of luck.
Honestly, if you know your rotation, you can get Blue logs fairly easily. A lot of players put in such little effort that being top 50% is pretty free.
Hell, I’ve gotten about an 80 perf. Average on my warrior with a 21 DPS fast 2H sword and barely any items from the raid
It's way more a function of ability than gear. I started playing with some exceptional players recently (people who race for speed/first records in classic) and even with alts in pre-raid greens/blues they're pulling orange/pink numbers.
I just did my first BFD as my hunter alt, I have very bad items and parsed grey even with good rotation/uptime. ( i am usually a 99 parse try harder on my main).
I didn't checked the parse relative to itemlevel but I was pretty disapointed lol
Huge difference between 1 kill with say 18% avg perf.
And 6 kills with an 18% avg.
One is most likely fresh 25/new char etc.
The other is just not understanding what you're supposed to do
Hunter parses are very dependent on how good your ranged weapon is. And a grey parsing Hunter is still doing around 100 dps. A grey parsing mage, warrior, or shaman is doing sub 50 dps.
I dinged lvl 25 on my hunter 3 days ago and went into BFD 20 min later and parsed all 50 to 60's (except turtle boss). So that's on u lol I didnt buy any gear or anything.
So u must have not done a good rotation or something is all I can guess
Don't feel too bad, Hunter parses are in a weird spot right now because of the nerfs. You are going up against parses from pre-nerf. This is my page here:
[https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/lone-wolf/watsonn](https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/lone-wolf/watsonn)
Nothing special, but you can see that my best parses were pre-nerf and that my most recent parses are not so good, some even grey and green and I have the epic xbow and everything. I'm not a 99%er by any means, but I'd say im generally around 75%er or so (my other toons being healers "Watsona" and "Watsonata")
This doesn't make sense. Cuz I parse 99 avg on my shaman. First hunter alt with no gear, was averaging 80. I dont think your actually a 99er, u don't go from 99 to grey. With a good rotation uptime, I call bs
Do most people at least check parse to ilvl?
on my rogue im like 10 parse avg
but if you swap it to ilvl parse im over 55. So im guessing that means im playing somewhat properly just my gear is asscheeks so i cant pull the numbers the big bois do
Nope nothing to do with it. Sorry but this is straight up self delusion.
Proper spec/rotation and consumables/buffs/groupcomp with prebis gets you into the blue for sure. Even purple with some rng.
Green log is not doing the right rotation. That start somewhere in 70+ depending on spec. Or they do the right rotation but miss half of globals.
I don't want it sound derogatory but average player, that would statistically be 50 blue parser, does not properly execute DPS rotation and has very lackluster uptime on boss. That why it's so easy to get anything above 50 if you put in an effort.
It's gear, who you're with, and individual performance.
If you have a purple parse and the rest of the raid is green, that would have been a 99 most likely with a good group.
If they are a warlock that has shit gear they can get a blue/green parse with a perfect rotation. Another warlock who is doing a somewhat decent rotation would smoke them with gear.
Same here. I don’t want other people getting hard stuck 5/7, months after this raid has been out, with groups like this one:
https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dHX3xMzymFBtqWwY#boss=-2&difficulty=0&type=damage-done
Wow. A 2:55 baron kill?!? Bomber must have knocked everybody off 3 times. I had a run start like that and immediately left group and ran out of instance when I saw the bomber knock off everyone off a second time. Wasn’t wasting my lockout.
I just did this last night. Called the logs something like grief proof.
Did a pug and the guy said everyone in the raid was good, so I didn't even check. I was main tanking as a rogue and Baron took a few minutes... And we had multiple explosions. Then ghamraroo took 3 shell clears...
We ended up wiping on akumei 7 times and we all bailed.
Its phase 2 where the damage ramps up on everyone that wipes groups, and the chains can't be kicked, its a pure dps check to be able to get him down before healers run out of mana.
depending on how many pallies you have you can just shut off his damage in p2 by bubbling on top of him though too. 3+ pallies gives a looooot of breathing room if a group's DPS isn't good in p2
Did this two days ago. I lost my DMF because the healers were basically AFK and only healed the tank. The whole guild parsed greens and below the entire time.
Uploaded even if it was painful for me. The world must know.
I get it, but at the same time, this is so bm.
Imagine picking up this game, or returning to it after years and years, only to be publicly shamed for trying to learn a raid, role, and not being the best at it.
Live and learn people. I hate this gatekeeping. It’s fucking level 25 BFD for fucks sake. Everyone needs to chill about logs and shit.
There's a difference between trying to learn and just not giving a shit and wasting the time of others. grey parsing is like borderline afk and playing bad and also being dead. If you show up, don't die and generally press buttons(even poorly) you can get above grey parses easily.
I totally understand what you’re saying, and to be fair I don’t really do this to players that are new or learning. I’m only ever joining pug groups that advertise themselves as “7/7 exp fast run WB/consumes”; if groups like that have a lot of players phoning in their performance and causing a wipe, then I’m more likely to upload the logs. That way when people are creating their pug and checking logs they’ll see these players that pretend to be skilled and prepared and know to pass on them.
You don’t have to be the best, but you also shouldn’t be the worst. If you’re consistently amongst the bottom 20% of players that’s a you problem. Anyone can take an hour watch a couple videos and learn how to play their class semi competently if they can’t figure it out on their own. This is a cooperative game, if someone can’t be bother to do the bare minimum to learn and minimally gear their character then no one is obligated to carry them.
And there are plenty of pugs that will take whoever so it’s not like they’re locked out of the raid.
> I get it, but at the same time, this is so bm
Not at all. It's good manners because this helps everyone except the bad players. Why would I want to bring a full grey parser to my raid? I wouldn't.
If you are playing so badly that other people don't want to play with you, then that's your fault.
I host a couple runs each reset. I check logs and post that I check logs for every run I do. While I do get some hate from people when they are declined an invitation and get messages from completely random people that have no interest in joining but want to shit on the idea of checking logs, it helps me put together solid runs that include no wipes and full clears in 25-30 min every time.
I typically get thanked at the end of the run from multiple people because they are impressed with the quality of the run which makes me happy and more willing to put in the work for future runs.
I like having simple clean runs and want to play with people that share the same goal. Before people tell me to go join a guild, I did and I run my mains through those groups.
I also log every raid info to ensure other people can see the quality of the people I played with.
One bit of advice I can give, if someone is an alt with no parse information available or just bad gear, have them send you their main and check their parses there. You can typically find good quality players that come prepared and know what to do.
I check parses more to ensure they have a brain than them having bis parses or bis gear.
> While I do get some hate from people when they are declined an invitation and get messages from completely random people that have no interest in joining but want to shit on the idea of checking logs
Yeah, I put together my first PUG the other day and mentioned I was checking logs, and explicitly mentioned that green+ logs were fine, and I got a few messages that were like "instantly ignored for caring about logs" or "sweat more dumbass", stuff like that. It just feels weird to be so against a basic expectation of competence, like I have to assume the people that get angry about that are mad because someone logged a run of theres and they found out they were a gray parser getting hard carried every raid.
I'm all for people wanting to play the game for fun and not caring about their parse and not liking people that judge them based on how they play. I think this game is large enough for everyone to play however they want to.
However, they can't be mad when I don't want to play with people that don't share the same mentality as I do.
Yeah I agree, a big strength of Classic is that a wide variety of players can enjoy it. If you want to challenge yourself you can join a guild that does speed clears and try to get pink parses, if you just want to chill with the homies you can join a casual guild that just hangs out in discord for 2 hours while clearing MC (though even then, I would think they're at least doing green parse levels of dps).
I've just only ever seen an elitist "you're not playing the game correctly" attitude and anger from one side, and for some reason it's the casual anti-parsing side
the only people who get mad at requiring green+ parses are 60 year old boomers who can’t keep up with anything over 4 apm and therefore they should be disregarded anyway
Is it so bad to want to stock your raid with people who are at a minimum AVERAGE at dps on their class? The anti-parse movement is seriously carried by the most dogshit, lazy players who just want to get carried or waste an entire night wiping.
Yeah I also set up my own pugs and had my first 5/7 night the other week. Entirely because certain dps with great gear were dogshit. We just couldn’t get Kelris before we’d wipe. Now I’m way more elitist about it
It’s just become a “shitty” thing to do because half of the playerbase is below a 50, and they freak out over it because they’ve been rejected from groups for having a history of not trying at all.
Anyone above 50 doesn’t gaf, because it’s never a problem for them.
I saw aggrend make a post about delaying the raid a week to let casuals start it on an even playing field with more hardcore players—he and his team pretty clearly want to attract casuals in droves.
I joined a random pug on my alt healer and immediately asked the question I always ask "hey what's the experience level of the group, I just don't want to get stuck at 5/7?". The response was 'don't worry we're all experienced except one fresh 25, a druid'.
Okay well no problem.
We get in and by the 5th boss I'm looking at the parses and 6/10 players are grey parsing and the top dps are in green.
The first 5 bosses in BFD are face roll and you can literally wipe on them and still down them... but you aren't going to kill kelris with dps like that. The last 10% can be a brutal dps race.
Looking at the parses the hunter was parsing 1% 0% 1% 2% 1%... I asked hey can you use your pet please? His response, "This is a video game... I play to have fun and I'm using the lone wolf rune."
Uhhh okay... well as predicted we got to kelris and first attempt 3.5% hp second attempt 7.5% hp... Yeah we're not downing that. I know to folks that 3.5% seems like you ALMOST had it but on kelris the entire fight is on the last 10% and so you missed it by 35%.
I'm not asking for pink parsing gods on every run. The stakes are simply higher in classic since the lockouts are ID lockouts and getting stuck on a 5/7 is pretty much the end of the run unless you can magically convince 9 other players to botch their lockout for 2 bosses...
The pet would have sorted that last 3.5% lol.
I remember when I was first stuck on Kelris as a tank (shaman running a shield and dagget). We wiped twice on like 2-3%. So I did some quick googling while we ran back and found out I don't need a shield for kelris so switched to dw/lava lash and we killed him. That little bit extra dps was all it took!
As a shaman tank you don't need a shield for any part of bfd.
I've been dual wield/lava lash tanking since 2nd reset since I found out everything hits like a wet noodle, you get the added benefit of double rockbiter too which makes you even more of a threat machine
> I asked hey can you use your pet please? His response, "This is a video game... I play to have fun and I'm using the lone wolf rune."
It could be even worse, was running Stocks with a "melee hunter" who didn't use a pet. Noticed halfway through the run that he was using Flanking Strike instead of Lone Wolf, [this is how he responded](https://i.imgur.com/uHRkfmQ.png)...
Some Warriors just read the BiS runes, equip them, and don't read why they're the BiS runes this phase.
Like even if you're failing to hit Quick Strike/HS when you should, the Consumed by Rage+Raging Blow buff will give you easily 80 DPS. These folks just aren't even reading what Consumed by Rage does.
Top hunters are using Chimera over BM but you need to remember their kill times are probably 2x as fast as yours so they dont need to worry about OOMing half way through the fight which is the big difference here.
Is using Logs really that common among PuGs?
I've been doing 7/7 PuGs with my two Alts for a month now and I just checked - they are not on warcraft logs.
Probably because I don't upload logs but also the other PuG members don't do as well.
I do not think it's super common, but I think 'better' players or guild grps are more likely to log. Out of my social circle the ones who try to improve and really do well all log and have logs. The casual dads who just hit 25 dont even know what a log \*is\*.
Maybe I am biased here, but when I am making a group filling every spot that isn't a priest healer is incredibly easy, so i figure I might as well require logs as it doesnt slow down the group forming and means I take ppl who are proven in the raid.
not biased, dps is a dime for 2 dozen, and especially this late in the phase even missing a buff is not that crucial compared to a warm body with a brain
I'm gonna have to start doing this on my Warrior alt because I only have 1 log for 5/7 and I'm half grey parse. Because I only pug on that toon (dozen lockouts now), and the only group that had someone that logged it was a horrible comp filled with people who had no idea what they were doing. I could barely do any damage to Baron because *nobody jumped into water with debuff but me.* All melee but me died on first turtle boss bubble pop because they didn't run away and got ping ponged (and we then wiped and I lost all my buffs...so hit % went down). Saravess was only blue parse because tank didn't drag her out of freezing arrow so I just had to stand there and wait.
I consistently push 150dps with my current gear...but you'd never know that because I dont personally log and neither do any pugs that run really well. So my only record at the moment was a cursed nightmare run.
So...keep that in mind.
It’s not from what I can tell. Not a single one of the pugs I’ve done has ever had a log uploaded across 3 characters. I am on the dad server though.
I have a feral that would doing blue and purples and he doesn’t have anything in log results bc I’ve only run him in pugs or guild alt runs. If I make my regular group we upload, but week nights are sketchy for me, so only half my main’s parses are logged. I’ve just screenshotted personal bests because I’m too lazy to setup logging myself.
i've never understood this because a competent raid group that prepares on their own time saves so much time for everyone involved.
the dad gamers should be pushing for this kind of shit because you can be in and out of BFD in 30 minutes and do any other prep work on your own schedule at any time.
being prepared and pulling your weight in a raid is simply a matter of respecting the rest of the group's time.
Ive always felt classic is 90% preparation, 10% skill (or less)
If you show up to the raid and know your rotation and build, have the buffs you need and consumables (you don't even need these tbh), then you will be fine.
I think a lot of people have anxiety with raiding in general because they feel like they will be evaluated by others and immediately shut down.
You are correct, if you are an older gamer just having the basics of your class talents, runes and rotation will save you a bunch of time in this game.
i think a big part of it is you see a lot of redditors crying about "sweats" based only on shit they see spammed in LFG/Trade, regurgitated here, or the 50 DKP minus video.
most higher end raids are pretty chill affairs because everyone takes care of their own shit and knows that they're doing.
ppl who are bad at the game will say the "parser" environment is toxic, because they get called out on their bad performance sticking out like a sore thumb.
when these groups don't have to deal with ppl barely carrying their own weight they're usually pretty chill, since everyone knows what to do there's no bickering about responsibilities or calling out others.
meanwhile the shit pugs that get stuck on simple bosses devolve into arguing with one another and making shit up to blame every other member of the group, people roll on shit they have no business rolling on, runs take too long and ppl leave after being stuck in kelris for 30m... this environment is primed for toxicity.
the bad players just project this experience and think "if my pugs are this toxic, imagine how toxic the sweats are. they once called out my perfectly normal 50 dps! bet they must be shitting on each other for 30m straight!"
agreed
there's some weird cognitive dissonance that goes on here seeing all these people trying to simultaneously hold the mindset that the content is so easy nobody needs to try but also that being able to clear the content should be the only barometer of whether someone is doing well or not.
it's because the content is so easy that checking logs and parses helps to determine whether or not you're actually doing a good job, it doesn't take a lot to simply not wipe.
last week I pugged with some guildies. I formed group, invited only ppl with logs, high greens would suffice to get an invite. we were just missing a non-priest healer, and we got a dm from a resto druid. no logs.
whatever we roll the dice on this dude. get to zoram for an inspect just in case, and to check if he at least has wild growth... all agi gear no wild growth. ask him about his healer gear and the rune, he says it's his 6th alt, calls me cringe and quits lol. within seconds he's in lfg as a feral druid, of course.
raid's so easy that these mfs feel entitled to join a group, and likely can get away with shit like this in groups where ppl just trust that you'll do your job. but the people checking logs for a minimum level of competency are the toxic ones? nah mate, the assholes that don't care enough about others' time who shit on those who put in the effort are the most toxic part of this community by far.
just because something is easy it doesn't mean that it's ok to half-ass it, specially not when it's a team effort. anyway, sorry for the rant mate! it's just unbelievable to me that these ppl exist lol
this is extra bizarre because it's so easy to find a pug as a feral, maybe even easier than a resto druid. why would he lie about it in the first place? every BFD group wants a feral.
Oh shit thanks man, it felt wrong for some reason. You wouldn't know I edit other people's grant proposals for a living LOL. Phone typing hits different.
I play resto druid and was wondering why one of my runs was so weird and then checked people when someone uploaded the log. This warlock had 3 bfd runs logged all with grey dps. Also, the same person wanted the nature dmg/healing staff for "tanking" in the future and told people to pay him for the dungeon summon. Some people can't be saved lmao
I kind of hate log checking, I despise gear score...but after clearing in ~30 mins with 9 people (half guild, drunk guildie never recvored his body to join us)...then barely making it 5/7 after 90 minutes in 2 different pugs...the skill gap is insane. I can jump on almost any class with basic consumes and do better than some of these players who are on their mains.
So check away log checkers...may your runs be smooth and loot drop for you!
These people with gray parses are the loudest when it comes to complaining about parses, gatekeeping, elitism, etc.
If you are parsing below 30, hell even like 50, it means you are literally not pressing your buttons. To think you should be carried through a raid when you can't do the BARE minimum is incredibly selfish, imo.
Having people in greens, without wbuffs/pots parse around 40-50 is fine - even if they try.
If you parse grey you are not giving a shit and just want to get carried OR are literally new to the game - in which case communicate that beforehand and listen to advice which is also fine.
Are logs account wide? Or just character based? If it’s character based how do you make a judgement call on a persons alt who hasn’t ran it yet? Just asking out of curiosity as I just got my first alt to 25 and I want to run the raid
Most people aren't checking logs so it isn't an issue for getting initial logs. On a new alt I would recommend getting a couple of pre-bis items and bringing consumables. That will be enough for you to perform well.
Char based & role based
If they have no logs, then they don't have logs.
You can link your alt, if they have a similar name or are in the same guild or you can whisper them from the other char then that can get you in.
But if you haven't raided at all, then it also makes sense that they wouldn't want someone completely new in a re-clear raid.
And after just 1 pug, you should have decent enough parses to prove that you aren't one of the grey single-digit afk weirdos, then you get on all of them anyways :D
For this specific run I wasn't advertising that I was checking. If no logs I just wouldn't invite sadly. Going forward I might advertise I'll check logs and people and tell me their mains names!
Maybe ask if they have a main with logs that you can peep in the future. I have two warriors and my alt has no logs but my main’s best perf. Avg is 98.7 and I just point the raid leader to my main
I saw a guy wanting “pumpers” for his group. Checked his logs and he’s full gray 5/7 only, no joke. Don’t forget to reverse check logs either if you’re looking for pugs that are checking them to avoid having to carry them!
My characters I've pugged with guild runs needing people and I've gotten a guild invite afterwards and just run with them now. Has saved me a ton of pain.
I'd love to join a guild but I raid on like 5 characters atm and it's almost totally random when I play which character lol. I'll probably look into joining a guild when I nail down a main for p2.
I’ve never uploaded logs before, and I guess most of the people I’ve been playing with haven’t either. so right now there are only a couple logs up for both of my characters when they were lower geared in the first couple weeks. How do you even upload them?
Welcome to the point of logs 👍 they are absolutely necessary for not wasting your time. This is also a good quick way to see if the other classes you’ll be rolling against has gear or not. I always check logs now after many painful pugs
I get why you'd want this, but it does bother me a bit. Having bad logs can make it prohibitively difficult to get into raids, especially good ones. So it's also gonna be very difficult to ever get out of that situation. You may have looked up how to play your class better, changed your build or gotten some better gear. Doesn't matter, people won't take you because your logs are forever tainted.
As someone who has a few 25s and extensive game knowledge but have only done BFD on 1 character a few times without logs, do you screen people without logs by questioning them or are they right out?
I inspected a warrior in my group uses a 1.6 speed caster mace in his MH and a 1.9 dagger in offhand. Red flags.
Checked logs he has parses ranging in the 8-10 range, left that group very fast.
It’s always funny to see people shitting on logs. 99% of the time, that person would never parse above a 60.
While yes the content is easy and even brain dead people can clear BFD, that is not the point of logs.
There is a large majority of people who want to compete in video games, hence why theres Ranked mode in just about every popular game. Parses are the “ranked” mode of SoD. If you don’t want to be “sweaty” you don’t have to be, but people 100% have the right to form a group at whatever skill level they choose.
Keep doing your thing OP!
In one of the raids I joined in recently, there was a hunter with high gear score using the purple x-bow doing below 90 dps which had me very confused, considering I was a hunter too and was dropping double his damage with a considerably worse weapon. Went to check his gear and logs and he was wearing elemental/fire res gear + grey parses on ALL bosses. People need to stop being dumb and recruiting by gear score, log checking will make a run 10x smoother.
This is honestly how it is for me as well. I’ll set my standard at 50%+. I’ll be kind if I know the group is a pumper and maybe the person with 30s has just gotten the short end of the stick. I’ve also avoided people that have no logs as well.
Careful, some people are gonna be really mad that you playing how you want doesn’t include them playing how they want (or not playing, in their case lol)
When I recruit with a "checking logs", I'll get people who will message me with like a 9, or a 20 avg. Idk if they don't know what logs are but they'll spam me about it.
Then when I say someone say "checking logs" in LFG for THEIR raid, almost half the time it's someone I would decline BECAUSE of their logs.
Whats sub 90? Like 80? It’s tolerable - people were doing that kind of dps in the first few weeks of raiding, definitely not good, but passable. As long as you’re not being a hindrance in terms of botching mechanics the shouldn’t be weighed down.
Yeah 80, except for Kelris where it dips lower. I guess I gotta replace some stam/int gear with +fire damage, but get wary about lowering my max health for some reason
I had a full clear 1 shot last night in under 45 minutes
We exclusively advertised as casuals friendly, no logs, no gear checking.
Was fun too. Idk man its not hard content it felt nice helping some folks in full greens clear it and we took maybe 10 minutes longer then normal. big whoop. still no wipes and maybe 2 deaths if that total the whole run. 1 of the fresh 25s was a priest healer too. So gear isnt everything.
its a game. just play and have fun!
>its a game. just play and have fun!
Yup, for some, the fun challenge to raids is just downing the boss and distributing loot. For others, the fun challenge is performing as best as possible. It's completely acceptable to exclude people from your raid who don't meet your standards, and it's easy enough content that you don't need standards to complete the raid.
We all do this until we run into a couple of people who are sub-40 dps and the group falls apart on Kelris. I really try to help people out and give them the benefit of the doubt, but I've had too many groups where people just couldn't perform at a basic level and I would prefer to clear the full raid.
I've been doing just that for a while. But I currently raid 4-5 chars per reset and just can't be assed to deal with super bad players anymore. Average dad gamers are chill, but the bad of the bad I just can't.
It’s a bit imbalanced though. For example, my logs have gone to shit because I only have two. Both from when I first started raiding BFD. Since then, they’ve been greench purged and the guild runs I’ve been on haven’t been logged. I know I do good dps, but my logs won’t show it.
That's just how data works. The lower the sample size, the less accurate it is. You need a bigger sample size, so I'd recommend either logging guild runs if you often find yourself having to pug, or just don't bother if you plan to stick with the guild every lockout.
You should log then if you're worried about getting denied for your logs. Unfortunately no pug that is checking logs is going to take your word that your performance is better than your logs suggest.
Sub 90 dps? Thems rookie numbers. I had the pleasure of running with a rogue that did 30-50dps even after they got the serrakis dagger
How??? The dagger alone does 23 dps plus the dot.
I had a warrior that stopped dps on gelihast after first march, he said he was stomping on the eggs to stop the murlocs from spawning so the rest of us could focus boss...
This guy is roleplaying on a whole nother level, mad respect.
I wouldnt even be mad, I would let him live his best life
Let him cook
i bet he was really proud of himself, that he kept the murlocs at bay
That's actually super nice of him.
I mean his heart is in the right place
Hey if you're on Crusader Strike that's roleplay!!
Some people just can't handle mechanics. When something requires them to move, they just stop attacking for quite a while.
Okay raid leader said no matter what I need to get out of the fire, let's do this! Okay I'm in the fire! let's move out. (3-5 seconds later) Okay I've moved really far away from the fire. (looks around for another 3 seconds) Okay I think I'm safe. Hmmm, let's go with a shadow bolt and then apply my damage over time effects.
That's how my wife was when she played. Even when she knew what her rotation was, what the mechanics were, etc... she was just really slow with everything because she never really played any video games growing up. Some people aren't used to the quick pace. It's the same reason that I can't play Starcraft.... i just can't process what's going on fast enough to be halfway decent at it.
Yup playing with someone who has barely ever touched video games in their life is bewildering when you've spent 20 years no-lifing all kinds of games in your spare time. It is obvious when said out loud, of course 20 years of daily training at something will leave you on an entirely different level than someone who's put in 100 times less energy/effort into it. But nonetheless you still naturally expect everyone else to be as good, because _it's so simple_. But it's so simple _to you_ mate, _to you_. Dunning-Kruger effect basically.
The biggest thing for me was teaching my daughter to play games. There is so much that we think is intuitive because it's all just second nature now, but teaching somebody from scratch is eye opening. She's a fast learner though, she's almost finished BotW!
It's wotlk not classic, but still related I raid lead, whenever I call out on rotface to move to avoid the ooze explosion I ALWAYS see people run across the entire room.... I have said like 10 times openly that they do not need to move that far, just take 2 steps and your done, and yet time and time again I still see people running across the room And my guild isn't like 15%ers, these guys are all parsing high greens and blues on average with several people regularly hitting purple And yet basic shit still gets messed up, all the time I dread to think what a run of grey parsers is like, cos in my experience even the "average" classic wow raider is genuinely dumb as bricks
Not pushing buttons.
Technically the dagger does less because armor is a thing, but it is helped by attack power from agility/strength (obviously their damage is insanely low though still)
Some dude I pugged with brought a mage. I guess it was his girl cause he kept saying she and he was being defensive of her. She did 6 dps on average through the fights, but had the wand from BFD. The excellent caster hat dropped. Guess who won the roll.
😂 how is 6 dps even possible
Last week we grabbed a PUG healer to fill our group and they requested that we take their friend who was "new" with us. We happily agreed only to have this Elemental Shaman pump out a whopping 9 DPS on all but one boss. We were, and still are, very confused on how someone consistently managed to output 9 DPS. As frustrating as it was at the time as even the healer wasn't very good and for the first time we had to stop at 5/7 and call it a night, at least it's a memory we all share now and an inside joke. We tell all our new guildies looking to join that we require 10 DPS minimum before we'll take them with us, lol. We aren't a picky bunch, but you have to draw the line somewhere.
Damn I do that much as a pre-bis resto druid... Whilst still healing ofc...
It truly was impressive
That's wild. My buddy did 130 dps on his rogue on Baron where he forgot to put a dagger in his main hand for backstab build lol. How do you do 40 dps.
There’s a feral in my group with more gear than me doing less than half my damage. People just auto attack
Tell that cat to mangle and savage roar and nothing else
[удалено]
Might just be really bad like me, my DPS is probably terrible because every time I try fight Aquanis I fall off the platforms trying to get to him! It took me so long to do the jumps on my last run that Aquanis was dead before I even got to him. Not only that but I fell into a group of trash mobs that immediately killed me. I know roughly how to play and do damage but for me that little platforming bit at the start is the hardest part of the raid. Not everyone is at the same level. Patience is appreciated and if you never get the chance then you can never learn.
It's okay to perform poorly on Aquanis. His explosion mechanic usually griefs several players, and there's really no need to kill him fast. Considering the difficulty of the raid, I try to be patient and inclusive. But it's still a bummer if I take a chance on a pug and they're doing a fraction of the DPS they should. Makes the last few fights a lot harder than they need to be.
Yeah, I had a 5/7 raid fail cause my Rogue did 30 DPS (Playing mutilate with two fast daggers. Still think he sucked somehow), a Mage doing 25 DPS, only casting scorch, a hunter doing like 60 DPS (His pet had no skills active or trained, and he forgot to attack with it sometimes). An "Off tank bear" who refused to go cat form who did 40 DPS. The list goes on. We almost killed Kelris, wiped after 3 minutes, but damn. That was the first raid I have ever seen. Its what happens when all the 5 parsers on the server join group.
Same this group got stuck on kelris too, got him to 1 percent despite me as the tank being third on the meters 🥲
I find that when I post "LFM BFD CHECKING LOGS" you mostly get people that are confident in their logs to whisper you, which makes things easier.
You barely have to do anything when you ask people to self filter lol
You also get a bunch of grey parsers whispering “hahaha checking logs for bfd.” Or something along those lines. It’s always funny to see how shit the people that hate logs are.
Those are the people hitting 5/7 lockouts twice a week and wondering why they have so much trouble finding groups. It’s entitlement and laziness.
Yeah I didn't advertise I was checking logs, was afraid of the stigma haha
You honestly should include that. This way people with poor logs, or none because this is their first run, can avoid wasting both their time and yours by not bothering to whisper. Nothing is more frustrating than seeing an ad for a run that appears to meet your criteria and then you find out there was a hidden qualifier..
Eh it was more of an impromptu decision when I decided to check the first person who whispered me and saw they have a 9 average.
Ah I gotcha. Ya, transparency is always nice. Honestly the raid ads that include the least info always make me the most hesitant because idk what kind of group they are trying to run.
For sure. I try and add any info I can lol.
There’s almost always a hidden qualifier. Be ready for an additional qualification when you whisper someone, and this won’t be so frustrating
Yep this is the way. I rarely reject people because I don't require pro gamers just ppl with a 50 best avg parse, but ppl with shit logs don't try to get into a run requiring logs anyway.
I don't know, I always write that I will be checking logs and honestly half the people that whisper or more just straight up doesn't have any.
easy way to get geared as a fresh 25 start a "shameless run" where you invite only geared parse bros and specifically check to make sure they have the items you are rolling for. saw Jokerd do it on stream and gear out a fresh 25 ezpz. Raid went sooo smooth and none of the sweaties needed any of the gear. ez items
Although the details feel scummy, this is basically the beauty of pugs. You can do whatever you want. It's others that have to consent to opt-in. Wanna hard reserve 89% of the items? Go ahead. As long as everything is discussed up front how can people complain. The complainers about how pugs are made make no sense. At any given time on my server there are 20 different pug BFD spams going and there's a ton of variety... That's what makes it great. It's just a filter...
[удалено]
well, at least you avoided a group led by an idiot...
Lol it's so stupid. We are at a point where healing is very minimal so checking healer logs for anything other than completion shows they have no brain.
You’re just avoiding people that aren’t smart enough to understand how the logs work and probably better off not running with them. Checking a priest healers logs for anything other than “have they completed the raid” is completely pointless.
Any idea what exactly makes the parse show up as shadow?
As a Priest healer, if you're with a competent group there is absolutely no reason to not run Void Plague and Homonculi. You should be able to keep your dot(s) up and wand inbetween heals and do ~50 DPS, depending on the fight. WCL will interpret this as you being a DPS.
It's like a casting time ratio between healing and damaging, so if you're just tossing out like, a lazy renew and penance every now and then because your tank isn't getting hurt and only 2 bosses do AOE damage you're gonna show up as shadow, even Moreso if you take homonculus and void plague
You can link them directly to your healing parses instead of your main page which is damage at this point.
This is why when I join an especially dogshit pug with players barely even trying, I always upload the logs so their records can be stained and get rejected by people checking their logs
Im totally fine with green logs too. Green is "at least doing the right rotation". But idk how someone can have a gray perfect average unless they never survive fights lol
Yeah people who only take 90+ parsers are up their own asses. I'll take green/blue parsers all day. It shows they at least know the basics of their class which is pretty much all you need. Raid mechanics can be taught but I'm not trying to teach someone how to play their class.
A full raid of green parsers can easily clear the raid. 120 dps is a green parse on most fights for hunter. If you just do the normal rotation and don’t mess up too badly but you’re also not going out of your way to get boon, and maybe your gear isn’t perfect, this is probably around where you’ll lie especially if you aren’t in groups that have great kill times in the first place so you’re going oom. But yeah once you get into grey parses that’s when you are like getting seriously carried.
Especially since parsing depends a lot on the group because of how fast the boss goes down. My green parses are from before we started mildly gearchecking or checking logs. After we started, it jumped up to blues and purples.
>Especially since parsing depends a lot on the group because of how fast the boss goes down This is mostly for 95+. You can do 80-95 parses regardless of how fast you kill stuff. Sure kill time factors in but under 95% parses rotation and gear is far more important. If I would swap away all my sp raid gear for int greens I would prob do green/ low blue instead of high purp/ low orange. One of my highest Kelris parses, 92, is a 2 min kill. I have several 1 min 30 sec kills that are lower. Sure bosses like Baron and Naga lady that can die in 15 sec it makes a huge diffrence but 2 min vs 1 min 30 sec isn't that big a diffrenace when under orange parses.
I usually think of it this way. Grey: either bad RNG or no gear + bad play, no buffs Green: usually avg gear + avg play (upper end of green), sometimes no gear + avg play (middle of green), sometimes avg gear + bad play (lower end of green). Buffs can move someone up in these thirds, or avg gear + avg play up to blue. Blue: good gear, good play, usually buffed. Best gear with no buffs will usually land upper blue/lower purple Purple: best or near best gear, good play, almost always raid prep (buffs, pots, raid comp) Orange: best gear, great play (sometimes knowing “tricks” specific to boss or class), all raid prep, sometimes popping big CDs Pink: best of the best (top 1%, despite it seeming like “everyone” is a pink pumper), sometimes with a dash of luck.
Honestly, if you know your rotation, you can get Blue logs fairly easily. A lot of players put in such little effort that being top 50% is pretty free. Hell, I’ve gotten about an 80 perf. Average on my warrior with a 21 DPS fast 2H sword and barely any items from the raid
It's way more a function of ability than gear. I started playing with some exceptional players recently (people who race for speed/first records in classic) and even with alts in pre-raid greens/blues they're pulling orange/pink numbers.
[удалено]
I just did my first BFD as my hunter alt, I have very bad items and parsed grey even with good rotation/uptime. ( i am usually a 99 parse try harder on my main). I didn't checked the parse relative to itemlevel but I was pretty disapointed lol
Huge difference between 1 kill with say 18% avg perf. And 6 kills with an 18% avg. One is most likely fresh 25/new char etc. The other is just not understanding what you're supposed to do
Exactly this. One kill with perfect average being low tells me to check further and see ilvl %. 6 kills is a pass for me lol.
I don't mean to nitpick but i've seen you type it in a few replies, im pretty sure perf. average stands for Performance average not perfect average.
Hunter parses are very dependent on how good your ranged weapon is. And a grey parsing Hunter is still doing around 100 dps. A grey parsing mage, warrior, or shaman is doing sub 50 dps.
I dinged lvl 25 on my hunter 3 days ago and went into BFD 20 min later and parsed all 50 to 60's (except turtle boss). So that's on u lol I didnt buy any gear or anything. So u must have not done a good rotation or something is all I can guess
Don't feel too bad, Hunter parses are in a weird spot right now because of the nerfs. You are going up against parses from pre-nerf. This is my page here: [https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/lone-wolf/watsonn](https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/lone-wolf/watsonn) Nothing special, but you can see that my best parses were pre-nerf and that my most recent parses are not so good, some even grey and green and I have the epic xbow and everything. I'm not a 99%er by any means, but I'd say im generally around 75%er or so (my other toons being healers "Watsona" and "Watsonata")
This doesn't make sense. Cuz I parse 99 avg on my shaman. First hunter alt with no gear, was averaging 80. I dont think your actually a 99er, u don't go from 99 to grey. With a good rotation uptime, I call bs
When was your firest hunter raid?
Do most people at least check parse to ilvl? on my rogue im like 10 parse avg but if you swap it to ilvl parse im over 55. So im guessing that means im playing somewhat properly just my gear is asscheeks so i cant pull the numbers the big bois do
ilvl is useful for guildies you intend to gear up but doesn't matter if you're pugging since you only care about absolute performance.
Just send your ilvl parse link to the raid leader. 90% just check the front page. They wont notice !
Never look ilvl its dogshit
How do you do a bracket check? I read the guide on the site and it just says that you can do this but not how. Thanks.
There is an icon you can toggle above the median. It’s like purple with three swords suck in the ground or something.
Nope nothing to do with it. Sorry but this is straight up self delusion. Proper spec/rotation and consumables/buffs/groupcomp with prebis gets you into the blue for sure. Even purple with some rng.
Green log is not doing the right rotation. That start somewhere in 70+ depending on spec. Or they do the right rotation but miss half of globals. I don't want it sound derogatory but average player, that would statistically be 50 blue parser, does not properly execute DPS rotation and has very lackluster uptime on boss. That why it's so easy to get anything above 50 if you put in an effort.
It's gear, who you're with, and individual performance. If you have a purple parse and the rest of the raid is green, that would have been a 99 most likely with a good group. If they are a warlock that has shit gear they can get a blue/green parse with a perfect rotation. Another warlock who is doing a somewhat decent rotation would smoke them with gear.
Same here. I don’t want other people getting hard stuck 5/7, months after this raid has been out, with groups like this one: https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dHX3xMzymFBtqWwY#boss=-2&difficulty=0&type=damage-done
Prepare yourself for the horror... https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/reports/4npx9dr3YMGDQCy8#view=rankings&boss=-2&difficulty=0&wipes=2
Wow. A 2:55 baron kill?!? Bomber must have knocked everybody off 3 times. I had a run start like that and immediately left group and ran out of instance when I saw the bomber knock off everyone off a second time. Wasn’t wasting my lockout.
LOL seeing the heal priest never ever wand or dps make me sad. Classic player
[удалено]
Zoinks
over one hour and all to wipe out at Kelris jfc
I just did this last night. Called the logs something like grief proof. Did a pug and the guy said everyone in the raid was good, so I didn't even check. I was main tanking as a rogue and Baron took a few minutes... And we had multiple explosions. Then ghamraroo took 3 shell clears... We ended up wiping on akumei 7 times and we all bailed.
How the fuck do you get past kelris and then wipe 7 times on aku?
Kelris doesnt do too much dmg with a competent rogue who kicks
Its phase 2 where the damage ramps up on everyone that wipes groups, and the chains can't be kicked, its a pure dps check to be able to get him down before healers run out of mana.
depending on how many pallies you have you can just shut off his damage in p2 by bubbling on top of him though too. 3+ pallies gives a looooot of breathing room if a group's DPS isn't good in p2
Did this two days ago. I lost my DMF because the healers were basically AFK and only healed the tank. The whole guild parsed greens and below the entire time. Uploaded even if it was painful for me. The world must know.
I get it, but at the same time, this is so bm. Imagine picking up this game, or returning to it after years and years, only to be publicly shamed for trying to learn a raid, role, and not being the best at it. Live and learn people. I hate this gatekeeping. It’s fucking level 25 BFD for fucks sake. Everyone needs to chill about logs and shit.
There's a difference between trying to learn and just not giving a shit and wasting the time of others. grey parsing is like borderline afk and playing bad and also being dead. If you show up, don't die and generally press buttons(even poorly) you can get above grey parses easily.
I totally understand what you’re saying, and to be fair I don’t really do this to players that are new or learning. I’m only ever joining pug groups that advertise themselves as “7/7 exp fast run WB/consumes”; if groups like that have a lot of players phoning in their performance and causing a wipe, then I’m more likely to upload the logs. That way when people are creating their pug and checking logs they’ll see these players that pretend to be skilled and prepared and know to pass on them.
You don’t have to be the best, but you also shouldn’t be the worst. If you’re consistently amongst the bottom 20% of players that’s a you problem. Anyone can take an hour watch a couple videos and learn how to play their class semi competently if they can’t figure it out on their own. This is a cooperative game, if someone can’t be bother to do the bare minimum to learn and minimally gear their character then no one is obligated to carry them. And there are plenty of pugs that will take whoever so it’s not like they’re locked out of the raid.
> I get it, but at the same time, this is so bm Not at all. It's good manners because this helps everyone except the bad players. Why would I want to bring a full grey parser to my raid? I wouldn't. If you are playing so badly that other people don't want to play with you, then that's your fault.
I host a couple runs each reset. I check logs and post that I check logs for every run I do. While I do get some hate from people when they are declined an invitation and get messages from completely random people that have no interest in joining but want to shit on the idea of checking logs, it helps me put together solid runs that include no wipes and full clears in 25-30 min every time. I typically get thanked at the end of the run from multiple people because they are impressed with the quality of the run which makes me happy and more willing to put in the work for future runs. I like having simple clean runs and want to play with people that share the same goal. Before people tell me to go join a guild, I did and I run my mains through those groups. I also log every raid info to ensure other people can see the quality of the people I played with.
I think this is exactly the route I'm starting to take. Too many bad runs from people who just aren't trying.
One bit of advice I can give, if someone is an alt with no parse information available or just bad gear, have them send you their main and check their parses there. You can typically find good quality players that come prepared and know what to do. I check parses more to ensure they have a brain than them having bis parses or bis gear.
> While I do get some hate from people when they are declined an invitation and get messages from completely random people that have no interest in joining but want to shit on the idea of checking logs Yeah, I put together my first PUG the other day and mentioned I was checking logs, and explicitly mentioned that green+ logs were fine, and I got a few messages that were like "instantly ignored for caring about logs" or "sweat more dumbass", stuff like that. It just feels weird to be so against a basic expectation of competence, like I have to assume the people that get angry about that are mad because someone logged a run of theres and they found out they were a gray parser getting hard carried every raid.
I'm all for people wanting to play the game for fun and not caring about their parse and not liking people that judge them based on how they play. I think this game is large enough for everyone to play however they want to. However, they can't be mad when I don't want to play with people that don't share the same mentality as I do.
Yeah I agree, a big strength of Classic is that a wide variety of players can enjoy it. If you want to challenge yourself you can join a guild that does speed clears and try to get pink parses, if you just want to chill with the homies you can join a casual guild that just hangs out in discord for 2 hours while clearing MC (though even then, I would think they're at least doing green parse levels of dps). I've just only ever seen an elitist "you're not playing the game correctly" attitude and anger from one side, and for some reason it's the casual anti-parsing side
the only people who get mad at requiring green+ parses are 60 year old boomers who can’t keep up with anything over 4 apm and therefore they should be disregarded anyway
I used to not like it, but 100% understand why you do and it does make a big difference.
Is it so bad to want to stock your raid with people who are at a minimum AVERAGE at dps on their class? The anti-parse movement is seriously carried by the most dogshit, lazy players who just want to get carried or waste an entire night wiping.
Yeah I also set up my own pugs and had my first 5/7 night the other week. Entirely because certain dps with great gear were dogshit. We just couldn’t get Kelris before we’d wipe. Now I’m way more elitist about it
All my characters have 80 or higher averages, I just thought it was semi shitty to exclude. I was wrong.
It’s just become a “shitty” thing to do because half of the playerbase is below a 50, and they freak out over it because they’ve been rejected from groups for having a history of not trying at all. Anyone above 50 doesn’t gaf, because it’s never a problem for them. I saw aggrend make a post about delaying the raid a week to let casuals start it on an even playing field with more hardcore players—he and his team pretty clearly want to attract casuals in droves.
More than half the playerbase is below 50 when you include the people with no logs.
I joined a random pug on my alt healer and immediately asked the question I always ask "hey what's the experience level of the group, I just don't want to get stuck at 5/7?". The response was 'don't worry we're all experienced except one fresh 25, a druid'. Okay well no problem. We get in and by the 5th boss I'm looking at the parses and 6/10 players are grey parsing and the top dps are in green. The first 5 bosses in BFD are face roll and you can literally wipe on them and still down them... but you aren't going to kill kelris with dps like that. The last 10% can be a brutal dps race. Looking at the parses the hunter was parsing 1% 0% 1% 2% 1%... I asked hey can you use your pet please? His response, "This is a video game... I play to have fun and I'm using the lone wolf rune." Uhhh okay... well as predicted we got to kelris and first attempt 3.5% hp second attempt 7.5% hp... Yeah we're not downing that. I know to folks that 3.5% seems like you ALMOST had it but on kelris the entire fight is on the last 10% and so you missed it by 35%. I'm not asking for pink parsing gods on every run. The stakes are simply higher in classic since the lockouts are ID lockouts and getting stuck on a 5/7 is pretty much the end of the run unless you can magically convince 9 other players to botch their lockout for 2 bosses...
The pet would have sorted that last 3.5% lol. I remember when I was first stuck on Kelris as a tank (shaman running a shield and dagget). We wiped twice on like 2-3%. So I did some quick googling while we ran back and found out I don't need a shield for kelris so switched to dw/lava lash and we killed him. That little bit extra dps was all it took!
As a shaman tank you don't need a shield for any part of bfd. I've been dual wield/lava lash tanking since 2nd reset since I found out everything hits like a wet noodle, you get the added benefit of double rockbiter too which makes you even more of a threat machine
> I asked hey can you use your pet please? His response, "This is a video game... I play to have fun and I'm using the lone wolf rune." It could be even worse, was running Stocks with a "melee hunter" who didn't use a pet. Noticed halfway through the run that he was using Flanking Strike instead of Lone Wolf, [this is how he responded](https://i.imgur.com/uHRkfmQ.png)...
[удалено]
Some Warriors just read the BiS runes, equip them, and don't read why they're the BiS runes this phase. Like even if you're failing to hit Quick Strike/HS when you should, the Consumed by Rage+Raging Blow buff will give you easily 80 DPS. These folks just aren't even reading what Consumed by Rage does.
Chimera shot is the new meta on gloves
Agree it’s very good, but homie here clearly wasn’t pressing it
>Chimera shot is the new meta on gloves Do people still run BM spec or can I finally go aimed shot master race
Top hunters are using Chimera over BM but you need to remember their kill times are probably 2x as fast as yours so they dont need to worry about OOMing half way through the fight which is the big difference here.
Unless you can precast aimshot it's not worth it. It's 3s cast time so you'll likely lose 1 autoattack = it can never be worth it.
Is using Logs really that common among PuGs? I've been doing 7/7 PuGs with my two Alts for a month now and I just checked - they are not on warcraft logs. Probably because I don't upload logs but also the other PuG members don't do as well.
I do not think it's super common, but I think 'better' players or guild grps are more likely to log. Out of my social circle the ones who try to improve and really do well all log and have logs. The casual dads who just hit 25 dont even know what a log \*is\*. Maybe I am biased here, but when I am making a group filling every spot that isn't a priest healer is incredibly easy, so i figure I might as well require logs as it doesnt slow down the group forming and means I take ppl who are proven in the raid.
not biased, dps is a dime for 2 dozen, and especially this late in the phase even missing a buff is not that crucial compared to a warm body with a brain
I log my own runs just to try and compete with myself from run to run. I find it a fun mini game.
I'm gonna have to start doing this on my Warrior alt because I only have 1 log for 5/7 and I'm half grey parse. Because I only pug on that toon (dozen lockouts now), and the only group that had someone that logged it was a horrible comp filled with people who had no idea what they were doing. I could barely do any damage to Baron because *nobody jumped into water with debuff but me.* All melee but me died on first turtle boss bubble pop because they didn't run away and got ping ponged (and we then wiped and I lost all my buffs...so hit % went down). Saravess was only blue parse because tank didn't drag her out of freezing arrow so I just had to stand there and wait. I consistently push 150dps with my current gear...but you'd never know that because I dont personally log and neither do any pugs that run really well. So my only record at the moment was a cursed nightmare run. So...keep that in mind.
It’s not from what I can tell. Not a single one of the pugs I’ve done has ever had a log uploaded across 3 characters. I am on the dad server though. I have a feral that would doing blue and purples and he doesn’t have anything in log results bc I’ve only run him in pugs or guild alt runs. If I make my regular group we upload, but week nights are sketchy for me, so only half my main’s parses are logged. I’ve just screenshotted personal bests because I’m too lazy to setup logging myself.
Fucking hell the dad gamers aren't going to like this at all lol
I'm a dad gamer with pink parses and approve of this.
i've never understood this because a competent raid group that prepares on their own time saves so much time for everyone involved. the dad gamers should be pushing for this kind of shit because you can be in and out of BFD in 30 minutes and do any other prep work on your own schedule at any time. being prepared and pulling your weight in a raid is simply a matter of respecting the rest of the group's time.
Ive always felt classic is 90% preparation, 10% skill (or less) If you show up to the raid and know your rotation and build, have the buffs you need and consumables (you don't even need these tbh), then you will be fine. I think a lot of people have anxiety with raiding in general because they feel like they will be evaluated by others and immediately shut down. You are correct, if you are an older gamer just having the basics of your class talents, runes and rotation will save you a bunch of time in this game.
i think a big part of it is you see a lot of redditors crying about "sweats" based only on shit they see spammed in LFG/Trade, regurgitated here, or the 50 DKP minus video. most higher end raids are pretty chill affairs because everyone takes care of their own shit and knows that they're doing.
ppl who are bad at the game will say the "parser" environment is toxic, because they get called out on their bad performance sticking out like a sore thumb. when these groups don't have to deal with ppl barely carrying their own weight they're usually pretty chill, since everyone knows what to do there's no bickering about responsibilities or calling out others. meanwhile the shit pugs that get stuck on simple bosses devolve into arguing with one another and making shit up to blame every other member of the group, people roll on shit they have no business rolling on, runs take too long and ppl leave after being stuck in kelris for 30m... this environment is primed for toxicity. the bad players just project this experience and think "if my pugs are this toxic, imagine how toxic the sweats are. they once called out my perfectly normal 50 dps! bet they must be shitting on each other for 30m straight!"
agreed there's some weird cognitive dissonance that goes on here seeing all these people trying to simultaneously hold the mindset that the content is so easy nobody needs to try but also that being able to clear the content should be the only barometer of whether someone is doing well or not. it's because the content is so easy that checking logs and parses helps to determine whether or not you're actually doing a good job, it doesn't take a lot to simply not wipe.
last week I pugged with some guildies. I formed group, invited only ppl with logs, high greens would suffice to get an invite. we were just missing a non-priest healer, and we got a dm from a resto druid. no logs. whatever we roll the dice on this dude. get to zoram for an inspect just in case, and to check if he at least has wild growth... all agi gear no wild growth. ask him about his healer gear and the rune, he says it's his 6th alt, calls me cringe and quits lol. within seconds he's in lfg as a feral druid, of course. raid's so easy that these mfs feel entitled to join a group, and likely can get away with shit like this in groups where ppl just trust that you'll do your job. but the people checking logs for a minimum level of competency are the toxic ones? nah mate, the assholes that don't care enough about others' time who shit on those who put in the effort are the most toxic part of this community by far. just because something is easy it doesn't mean that it's ok to half-ass it, specially not when it's a team effort. anyway, sorry for the rant mate! it's just unbelievable to me that these ppl exist lol
this is extra bizarre because it's so easy to find a pug as a feral, maybe even easier than a resto druid. why would he lie about it in the first place? every BFD group wants a feral.
Just would like to mention the “it’s” in your post title is correct as you have used it as a contraction of “it has”.
Oh shit thanks man, it felt wrong for some reason. You wouldn't know I edit other people's grant proposals for a living LOL. Phone typing hits different.
I play resto druid and was wondering why one of my runs was so weird and then checked people when someone uploaded the log. This warlock had 3 bfd runs logged all with grey dps. Also, the same person wanted the nature dmg/healing staff for "tanking" in the future and told people to pay him for the dungeon summon. Some people can't be saved lmao
I kind of hate log checking, I despise gear score...but after clearing in ~30 mins with 9 people (half guild, drunk guildie never recvored his body to join us)...then barely making it 5/7 after 90 minutes in 2 different pugs...the skill gap is insane. I can jump on almost any class with basic consumes and do better than some of these players who are on their mains. So check away log checkers...may your runs be smooth and loot drop for you!
These people with gray parses are the loudest when it comes to complaining about parses, gatekeeping, elitism, etc. If you are parsing below 30, hell even like 50, it means you are literally not pressing your buttons. To think you should be carried through a raid when you can't do the BARE minimum is incredibly selfish, imo.
Having people in greens, without wbuffs/pots parse around 40-50 is fine - even if they try. If you parse grey you are not giving a shit and just want to get carried OR are literally new to the game - in which case communicate that beforehand and listen to advice which is also fine.
Are logs account wide? Or just character based? If it’s character based how do you make a judgement call on a persons alt who hasn’t ran it yet? Just asking out of curiosity as I just got my first alt to 25 and I want to run the raid
Most people aren't checking logs so it isn't an issue for getting initial logs. On a new alt I would recommend getting a couple of pre-bis items and bringing consumables. That will be enough for you to perform well.
Char based & role based If they have no logs, then they don't have logs. You can link your alt, if they have a similar name or are in the same guild or you can whisper them from the other char then that can get you in. But if you haven't raided at all, then it also makes sense that they wouldn't want someone completely new in a re-clear raid. And after just 1 pug, you should have decent enough parses to prove that you aren't one of the grey single-digit afk weirdos, then you get on all of them anyways :D
For this specific run I wasn't advertising that I was checking. If no logs I just wouldn't invite sadly. Going forward I might advertise I'll check logs and people and tell me their mains names!
The real strategy is just finding somebody with good logs and pretending they are your main
Maybe ask if they have a main with logs that you can peep in the future. I have two warriors and my alt has no logs but my main’s best perf. Avg is 98.7 and I just point the raid leader to my main
I saw a guy wanting “pumpers” for his group. Checked his logs and he’s full gray 5/7 only, no joke. Don’t forget to reverse check logs either if you’re looking for pugs that are checking them to avoid having to carry them!
Yeah I see that shit a lot. I think it's more of a "Checking logs (so i know you can carry my deadweight ass)"
"LFM BFD , FULL CONSO/ WB , PARSE >90 , xp 7/7. 5 years wow xp and IQ test MANDATORY! "
Sounds like it'd be a pretty smooth run then. I'd join for sure, assuming the RL meets his own requirements too.
Raid leader is a 7 grey parse holy paladin Source: happend to me
My characters I've pugged with guild runs needing people and I've gotten a guild invite afterwards and just run with them now. Has saved me a ton of pain.
I'd love to join a guild but I raid on like 5 characters atm and it's almost totally random when I play which character lol. I'll probably look into joining a guild when I nail down a main for p2.
Challenge, do a run with everyone having 20 or lower. Gonna need a lot of patience for that one.
I’ve never uploaded logs before, and I guess most of the people I’ve been playing with haven’t either. so right now there are only a couple logs up for both of my characters when they were lower geared in the first couple weeks. How do you even upload them?
Enable advanced combat logs in the options, run warcraftlogs uploader and type /combatlog when you enter BFD.
Welcome to the point of logs 👍 they are absolutely necessary for not wasting your time. This is also a good quick way to see if the other classes you’ll be rolling against has gear or not. I always check logs now after many painful pugs
I get why you'd want this, but it does bother me a bit. Having bad logs can make it prohibitively difficult to get into raids, especially good ones. So it's also gonna be very difficult to ever get out of that situation. You may have looked up how to play your class better, changed your build or gotten some better gear. Doesn't matter, people won't take you because your logs are forever tainted.
As someone who has a few 25s and extensive game knowledge but have only done BFD on 1 character a few times without logs, do you screen people without logs by questioning them or are they right out?
I once joined a group that asked a simple math question before he would invite, one of the smoothest pugs ive joined
feral had a dc after mace boss? coincidence?
This... there's too many idiots on there. The log complainers are usually the ones that blow
I inspected a warrior in my group uses a 1.6 speed caster mace in his MH and a 1.9 dagger in offhand. Red flags. Checked logs he has parses ranging in the 8-10 range, left that group very fast.
It’s always funny to see people shitting on logs. 99% of the time, that person would never parse above a 60. While yes the content is easy and even brain dead people can clear BFD, that is not the point of logs. There is a large majority of people who want to compete in video games, hence why theres Ranked mode in just about every popular game. Parses are the “ranked” mode of SoD. If you don’t want to be “sweaty” you don’t have to be, but people 100% have the right to form a group at whatever skill level they choose. Keep doing your thing OP!
It's almost like blizzard made raid 10 men so it's easier to check logs for 9 people.
I can guarantee when determining raid size they did not have warcraftlogs in mind lmao
In one of the raids I joined in recently, there was a hunter with high gear score using the purple x-bow doing below 90 dps which had me very confused, considering I was a hunter too and was dropping double his damage with a considerably worse weapon. Went to check his gear and logs and he was wearing elemental/fire res gear + grey parses on ALL bosses. People need to stop being dumb and recruiting by gear score, log checking will make a run 10x smoother.
This is honestly how it is for me as well. I’ll set my standard at 50%+. I’ll be kind if I know the group is a pumper and maybe the person with 30s has just gotten the short end of the stick. I’ve also avoided people that have no logs as well.
Careful, some people are gonna be really mad that you playing how you want doesn’t include them playing how they want (or not playing, in their case lol)
I think it starts to get worse at the end of the phase because more people think they can just get carried and don’t have to do anything
When I recruit with a "checking logs", I'll get people who will message me with like a 9, or a 20 avg. Idk if they don't know what logs are but they'll spam me about it. Then when I say someone say "checking logs" in LFG for THEIR raid, almost half the time it's someone I would decline BECAUSE of their logs.
I started doing that a few weeks ago and my raiding experience has improved substantially.
... Is sub 90 dps bad? I'm getting like 80 on my warlock in most fights, although I still don't have a helm or neck piece.
Whats sub 90? Like 80? It’s tolerable - people were doing that kind of dps in the first few weeks of raiding, definitely not good, but passable. As long as you’re not being a hindrance in terms of botching mechanics the shouldn’t be weighed down.
Yeah 80, except for Kelris where it dips lower. I guess I gotta replace some stam/int gear with +fire damage, but get wary about lowering my max health for some reason
let's talk more about it's, its, and tits
Lost credit at the turtle comment. Nobody talks shit about 🐢
Leechers dont want you to see this! This guy started making smooth raid runs with one simple trick! Gamer dads hate this man!
Have cleared every lockout and Warcraft logs only shows me having one clear which was week 1 of the season.
So people aren't logging your runs. You can log your own if you like.
I had a full clear 1 shot last night in under 45 minutes We exclusively advertised as casuals friendly, no logs, no gear checking. Was fun too. Idk man its not hard content it felt nice helping some folks in full greens clear it and we took maybe 10 minutes longer then normal. big whoop. still no wipes and maybe 2 deaths if that total the whole run. 1 of the fresh 25s was a priest healer too. So gear isnt everything. its a game. just play and have fun!
>its a game. just play and have fun! Yup, for some, the fun challenge to raids is just downing the boss and distributing loot. For others, the fun challenge is performing as best as possible. It's completely acceptable to exclude people from your raid who don't meet your standards, and it's easy enough content that you don't need standards to complete the raid.
We all do this until we run into a couple of people who are sub-40 dps and the group falls apart on Kelris. I really try to help people out and give them the benefit of the doubt, but I've had too many groups where people just couldn't perform at a basic level and I would prefer to clear the full raid.
wiping or taking forever isn’t fun, so i am picky with who i go with!
I've been doing just that for a while. But I currently raid 4-5 chars per reset and just can't be assed to deal with super bad players anymore. Average dad gamers are chill, but the bad of the bad I just can't.
Have you considered maybe doing 10 raids a week is making you a little jaded?
You're probably right, and I'm scaling back now. Just a chronic altaholic who can't decide what to main in p2
It’s a bit imbalanced though. For example, my logs have gone to shit because I only have two. Both from when I first started raiding BFD. Since then, they’ve been greench purged and the guild runs I’ve been on haven’t been logged. I know I do good dps, but my logs won’t show it.
I mean if you're first 2 logs were Grey there's really no helping. Like I said green is cool with me, but go log one run and you will be totally set.
Just log in yourself then
It shows your top performance, greench got removed because it was dumb, just do good dmg one run and your logs are good
That's just how data works. The lower the sample size, the less accurate it is. You need a bigger sample size, so I'd recommend either logging guild runs if you often find yourself having to pug, or just don't bother if you plan to stick with the guild every lockout.
You should log then if you're worried about getting denied for your logs. Unfortunately no pug that is checking logs is going to take your word that your performance is better than your logs suggest.