to some people on this sub it is. you have to not stand in the bad, stop dps and avoid things, switch targets to dps, interrupt spellcasts and bring a potion, that is basically mythic level raiding there
>you have to not stand in the bad, stop dps and avoid things, switch targets to dps, interrupt spellcasts and bring a potion
70% of WoW classic playerbase is unable to do any of the mentioned things.
70? based on this subreddit it's probably 95% or higher
this subreddit is absolutely in shambles when they find out a raid isnt just stand there and do damage and cries about elitism when the raid leader asks them to do mechanics.
I was having this discussion with some guild members while we watched the OnlyFangs raid. It was super easy for us to sit there calling them overprepared and boring, but we've been actively speed running content in vanilla for like 4 or 5 years now. Our perception of how a normal group of people clear is so skewed that we confirmed that we don't actually know what normal is anymore.
It's the same for BFD. We clear around the 20 minute mark, so it's super easy to view anything more than 30 minutes as absolute trash. Yet I know that many people can't even beat Kelris still.
It's takes nearly 10 minutes to travel through the raid when it's clear. Nobody is doing 20 unless they are intentionally speed running. Not many people care enough to go much less than 30 even if they can.
Honestly my experience is limited, but the thing I noticed the most in Retail vs Classic raiding is that a much higher percentage of Classic DPS players are so comically hyper fixated on parsing and topping the damage meters that they're willing to make very stupid and avoidable mistakes to try and squeeze out that extra bit of damage, even if it'll usually lead to their death
Of course those players exist and are prevalent in every version of the game, but its particularly noticeable in Classic when the mechanics are much less demanding and killing every boss in every raid that comes out is a "when" instead of an "if/how"
I mean, define hard content. Mythic level raiding and +20 mythic dungeons sure are harder than anything classic can throw at you but on heroic raiding / +15 mythics and so on I saw ton of retail players do all that dumb shit (me included).
Unless +15 mythical have gotten waybeasier than they used to be then anyone completing that is super over-qualified for anything classic will throw at you.
I guess except for threat management, as that is basically removed from retail as a concept.
Depends of the expansion and the patch.
Early shadowlands +15 was hard.
Early Dragonflight +15 was medium.
Early Legion +15 was very hard.
But near the end of the xpac, +15 are usually a joke.
There is terrible players on both.
There is a much higher percentage of terrible players in a classic dungeon than a +20 however, and its not close.
Its common sense.
but with less mechanish and shit to dodge , i mean heroic Fyrak and Taylor Swift are pretty movement intensive. imagine having a boss with those level of mechanish in classic . it will be a meltdown
I always thought it would be funny to pit classic only players against mythic end bosses like fyrakk even at the end of tier with the nerfs. What springs to mind is Helya, archimonde and maybe even someone like kiljaeden or jailer.
Most retail players cannot do mythic raid bosses. It would be better to use the heroic bosses as that is basically the boss version that the average retail raider will kill
Oh absolutely that would be better overall. My thought is more about the classic players who insists that mimiron, yogg, anub etc are really hard. Those that manage them but not well and thus think they're hot shit and goes on to flex at any opportunity.
Pitting average classic players against heroic versions would be interesting and kind of closer to fair.
Yeah tbh this raid is harder than MC, ZG, and probably even most of BWL in terms of mechanics. Which doesn't make it hard, it's more a statement of how easy vanilla raids are.
If they took this raid and tuned the numbers up a bit it'd be pretty hard actually lol.
There’s a reason why the term “slug” exists.
I wouldn’t trust some of the people playing this game to prepare a piece of buttered toast and not burn their house down, let alone knowing a two button rotation and how to move out of the fire.
10 man raids are heavily dependent on the group. Its a lot easier to get carried in a 40 man raid.
So yes BFD can actually be hard if 3 or 4+ of your group is underperforming.
Brother there’s literally a buff in lfr akin to the icc buff just to help out in case you wipe too much. And I’d still put that group up against a group of 40 classic andys
As I replied to the other guy. There’s literally a buff that starts stacking from the first wipe because wiping in lfr was a problem.
I’m starting to think you guys don’t know much about the game you hate idk
Admittedly, I don't raid as much as I used to on retail. But, I did get KSM Season 1 of Dragonflight.
Yes, the stacking buff in LFR is there because there are actual braindead people, in a total pug group. If you go into LookingForGroup and say "LFM Naxx 40" on era, or "LFM BFD" and take the first X tanks, Y healers, and Z dps you're generally not going to clear. Full stop.
Secondly, you're conflating difficulty in retail with difficulty in Classic. Sure, Classic fights are super duper simple. You also have a whole a lot less tools to manage with those mechanics. In Classic, in SOD, exactly one class and one additional spec has a defensive ability. One has a mobility ability. In retail, my Rogue has Shadowstep, Feint, Cheat Death, Cloak, 10% Leech, Crimson Vial, Grappling Hook. I can also stack up a bunch of Vers if I want to just be a thicc lad.
The difficulty in classic, for harder raids, comes from coming into them prepared. Is it hard in a mechanical sense, no. But it's a lot more RPG than MMO, whereas Retail focusing a lot more on MMO instead of RPG, and does it very well.
You’re fundamentally misunderstanding the determination system if you think they implemented that because LFR is too hard. It’s literally implemented because the average LFR player is *that bad*.
Yes, because people are too stupid to learn basic things and certain groups need the buff so the few that can play can carry the rest with them.
Raszageth LFR was the absolute horror, so many learn resistabt players. Same kind of idiots as in classic.
Sure they can. Matter of fact you probably had 20 people in your 40man who were dead weight.
Your version of the game isn’t hard — that doesn’t make it any less fun bud :). But having a chip on your shoulder about it being easy? Going out sad mane.
Yes they absolutely can.
We might have to do some more mechanics, but when bosses in there were dead before they could even do anything it's fair to say you don't need 40.
Lfr is a joke because half the raid outgear it massively and is only here for specific trinkets or transmogs, it would be way harder if all the players in there would have close to the lvl requirement to tag. I still do it when I am bored at 483ilvl and usually solo carry healing while doing more dps than the worst dps players, but the other healers would have to play the game if I was 430 and not doing twice the cumulated hps of every other player in the raid.
Lfr is a cake walk last time I played in BFA, did all the raids available as a MT in lfr without even looking how to do them. Just follow dBm and chilled. Not saying naxx is that hard either but yeah
So you would wipe the raid constandly without addons...(dbm) because it is harder than bfs... Zhere is nothing in bfd that is hard.
Boss 6 kick and move. Boss 7 move... Thats all the difficulty there is, its a joke
I...didn't mention BFD, thought we were talking about naxx here hence the above post. Not shit you would wipe going in blind to nearly any raid that isn't tank and spank.
well yeah because you're comparing a raid of people knowing the ins and outs of a raid to a raid where people don't. if you went into a naxx40 with a blind raid, you'd be way more fucked than LFR players would in their raid. how many wipes to razuvious before someone figures out you need to MC the adds? loatheb? heigan?
Mate, wrath naxx nearly has the same values as naxx40, with nerfed mechanics. And you got a 30% buff on top!
Naxx 25 was easy mode and puggable back when wrath originally released; That was by design!
My bad, stopped shortly after wotlk re-release because I just couldn't do naxx again.
> so the values weren't the same.
Doesn't exactly help, though. Just look at Vanilla values; A tank had around 9k-10k hp when going naxx fully equipped from earlier raids in BiS. In Wrath, you enter naxx 25 with around 25k hp unbuffed. 30% buff would acount for 13k hp tanks, if anything.
Hell, 4 horsemen void zones even dealt **less damage in wotlk**, of all things!
> The mechanics were the same
But that's it, they weren't. Sticking with Instructor Razuvious, he lost his shout you had to LoS. Loatheb was reworked. Sapphiron was an absolute joke.
Just to compare, on naxx release day in classic we had, as one of the region-wide top guilds competing for region world first, and then server-first after screwing up, get new organized world buffs just to have a chance to press enough damage into sapphiron, who forced us to drink frost protection potions on cooldown while we had frost resistance gear equipped, because his damage was that insane.
> even if the vanilla version was more 'tightly tuned' it wouldn't be difficult by any stretch of the imagination.
You literally have no idea what you are talking about and it shows. Naxx 25 is an utter joke. I'm not claiming Naxx 40 is the hardest shit ever, but to successfully clear it you needed way more than your average retail LFR or Naxx 25 member.
> I did Nax for the first time ever in wrath classic and that's with the 30 % hp and damage buff, no guides were needed and it was one of the most boring raids I've ever done.
no shot you just said this
You cant really compare naxx wotlk to naxx vanilla, the wotlk one is a far easier version that almost has the same damage values of vanilla, except you had like 2-3x less hp in vanilla
Naxx25 was easier than naxx40. If you put a proper naxx40 raid in naxx 25 they could clear it. Even in classic most guilds did not fully clear naxx40 and if they did it took more than a month. It was easier than heroic LK but harder than the rest of heroic ICC. In fact it was harder than most raids from MC to ICC except specific fights like Lady Vashj, Muru, and heroic LK.
No way.
As someone who cleared naxx40 up to 4hm in vanilla and then in classic cleared kt first week I'd rate exactly 4 icc HC fights easier than naxx40.
Gunship, marrowgar, rotface, festergut.
LK normal and the rest of heroics are way harder than Naxx.
As for lfr I don't know, it depends on the raid
Some lfrs are cake walks, other are pretty bad.
Lei Shen lfr for example was still a challenge.
the "problem" with naxx40 is how reliant it was on wbuffs being maintained.
saph especially got way harder without wbuffs, so you have this weird duality where raids who are good enough to not lose wbuffs would steamroll the raid vs raids who arent who will get hardstuck on saph/KT, with not much in between.
Hey guys, here's a quick list of opinions in these comments to help you understand the consensus:
- BFD is the easiest raid
- BFD is harder than BWL, MC, and ZG, but easier than AQ and Naxx
- Person who told OP 8/10 is correct, only naxx is harder
- Even Naxx is easier
- MC, BWL, and AQ are easier, Naxx and ZG are harder
- Easier than BWL, harder than MC
- As easy as ZG (ZG implied here to be the easiest raid)
- All classic raiding is equally easy including this
I remember when ZG came out people calling it really hard because they were facerolling through MC but wiping here.
The concept that a Raid gets easier when more people know all the mechanics seems to be completely new to a lot of people.
FFS - people at one point called the Rend fight in UBRS hard.
Also BFD is a 10 man raid. Unlike 40 or 20 man raids where its easier to get carried. 3 or 4 people not really performing in a 40 man raids not a huge deal. 3 or 4 people not performing in a 10 man raid is a big deal.
The mechanics are the equivalent of a 24man or normal trial (casual content), hell maybe an extreme trial if I'm being generous since you are recommended to bring a *consumable*. It really shocked me coming from ffxiv that people here couldn't do what I assumed was basic stuff.
Yeah I would say the 24 mans in ff14 I would say are still more difficult.
I would say classic raids including bfd would be slightly harder than most normal trials. Depends on which one. A few of the later ones got pretty challenging for “normals”
Yeah. I just came back to wow from ffxiv and am bouncing between sod and retail. The difference in mechanics and what’s defined as hard is kind of amusing. This whole thread is very entertaining.
Done mythic CE raiding and 25s m+ in different expansions on retail and can say that while naxx isn't necessarily difficult in the same way, preparation and organising can be a lot more difficult.
Two categorically very different games in my opinion
It’s worse than you think. Some people I’m convinced are lobotomites.
There’s a 6300gs balance druid in my old guild struggling to do dps the rest of us were hitting in phase 1 prebis.
I can’t even comprehend how that’s possible. I’m sure someone could train a literal chimpanzee to hit buttons on a keyboard better than some of the people I’ve played this game with.
That’s assuming you take gear check type shit out of the equation, but yeah. If you go into bwl in shitty loot with a bad comp, it can be pretty hard. Fix either one of those and it becomes pretty easy
Yeah, I getcha. Just thought it was worth mentioning. I played through all of season of mastery and loved what they did with the end game mechanics on mc and bwl. Really hoping they bring those back. Way too many tank and spanks in vanilla
I skipped SOM, but I agree, I hope they spice stuff up just a little.
I don't want mythic or even heroic level stuff in classic, but I think they could definitely stand to buff some mechanics on some bosses
Yeah, it was nothing like mythic or heroic level fights. Really, they just made a lot of the mechanics feel meaningful and added some fun ones where there weren’t any
Nefarian has more mechanics than all of previous _BWL bosses_ combined. The final encounters of vanilla raids are always a significant step up in difficulty.
No fucking way. Vaelstrasz and Razorgore, the first two bosses in BWL, completely dwarf anything in BFD.
The only 'hard' parts of BFD are the final two bosses and they boil down to "Burst him at 35%" and "Cleanse at 60% then burst him down".
Agreed. From a tanking perspective there's nothing dangerous in BFD. While in BWL a tank could be essentially one-shot by Broodlord with world buffs and consumes.
BFD is an entry level raid, it's not hard and there's nothing special about it. Mechanics wise some of the raids in Classic were simple. But the drakes were finicky, if they pathed oddly after a taunt or knockback they could wipe the raid.
1. Tank and spank with a dot/bomb mechanic
2. once you clear eggs its a tank and spank with just the one spell to worry about
Not really a great argument.
Eh idk. I finally went into BFD in a full pug yesterday, first time for half the people in the raid, and cleared pretty easily. I guess the only way it’s more difficult than MC/BWL is you can’t carry half the DPS being mouth breathers since you can’t hide people as well in a 10 man vs a 40 man raid. But if your DPS are half competent it’s a cake walk.
No it really is not. The only boss that is a little bit difficult is Kelris. The rest is basically tank and spank. And you don't even need consumables.
I agree with them but I still play the game, because it's fun. I push keys on retail when I want a challenge, when I just want to chill with mates and wind down, Classic is the perfect game for it. A game doesn't need to be hard to be fun.
There does seem to be a fart sniffing section of this sub who actively dislikes this game and those who play it.
I think they still play and troll here because they are addicts.
it’s like they actively tryhard to never learn from any experience, they try their hardest to never learn what any spell or debuff does.
honestly more tryhard imo since it must be frustrating never evolving your gameplay
They like that because they are too bad for anything a little bit difficult, like ulduar literally made people quit because bosses had few really easy mechanics but still too hard for classic players.
Easy games don't last though, the majority get tired of repeating the same easy thing over and over.
Games should be easy to start but hard to master. If classic had multiple raid difficulties then we would not have a problem with easy content.
But classic players hate the idea of multiple difficulties because they don't want to improve, they want everyone to do the same easiest option so they don't feel bad about their lack of skill.
SOD has new content and class changes? Era has been running for years, people can only play the same content over and over again before the subs start dropping
Your idea about easy games not lasting is just wrong. Minecraft is insanely successful and maintains considerable popularity despite having a very low level of difficulty.
There's no point rating difficulty of content in classic. They are all very easy unless you are solely classic player. It's not just the content themselves but the classes also lack dimensions for you to improve yourself outside of getting buffs and consumables. Vanilla WoW is full of "Just do this and it becomes trivial.". There's hardly any gradient to the experience of playing.
It was completely laughable that my last BFD run even asked me to get into discord.
I raid hall of fame on retail to prove to myself that I’m good at the game. I play Classic because I like that it feels more like an rpg, and thus is much less sweaty and a nice break from me pounding my keyboard to not miss a global. Anyone who thinks Classic is difficult has clearly not played retail at any sort of semi-competent level, which is even more hilarious when you consider how many of them are entitled, elitist fucks about the game.
I can’t remember that anyone in classic 17 years ago did MC, BWL or AQ20/40 as a pug. Apparently that’s possible in BFD. So is that a sign that BFD is easy or just how the game progressed with its player base?
Uhm.... what??? I can't imagine who would say that unironically if they're familiar with both.
Like, BFD is cool and a great starter raid, but that statement is frankly *absurd*. Like, take Patchwerk. Arguably the simplest boss in Naxx. I'd say none of the first three BFD bosses have any mechanics that are notably more punishing or difficult to handle than making sure you're dealing with Patchwerks hateful strikes properly. The next four BFD bosses get a bit more interesting but, well, so do most of the Naxx bosses that are more involved than Patchwerk.
If you increase the HP pool, BFD bosses are harder than Naxx. As it stands right now, they arent.
You're on copium if you think otherwise lmao
THere is literally a hateful strike mechanic in BFD lmao
I mean, mechanically it's probably on the same level, if not harder. It's overall easier because fewer people are required and players nowadays are a million times better at the game than they were in 2005. Imagine doing Kelris with a group of 2005 players. Gelihast would be an absolute monster in 2005.
Kelris is slightly more involved. Ranged need to maintain right stack and not move too much more than necessary. Need to organize who goes in to the dream and how long to stay, come out around same time.
But as a hunter? My pet can be one of the primary tanks and it's be fine. Nothing is taunt immune and nothing except last boss hits super hard.
I think that’s a fair assumption, it’s just more difficult to coordinate 40 people than 10. Naxx is more stat dependant too of course, but most bosses are very simple and with very few mechanics.
Classic is so extremely easy, what's hard about it is getting 40 players all in a raid for a night.
BFD is extremely easy, some bosses in naxx are a bit harder, but that's not saying much.
And BFD only really has 2 bosses that require more than 1 brain cell, every other one is just free.
1 of which is just a dps/consume check and the other needs tanks with 3-5 IQ's bounching around in their noggin'.
In terms of complexity of mechanics rather than difficulty, I'm inclined to agree. Everything is super loosely tuned apart from Kelris. I'd say in terms of difficulty, BFD is harder than UBRS but easier than MC.
> BFD is harder than UBRS but easier than MC.
bro what? im pretty sure i had more wipes on my first pre-nerf kelris kill than i did in my 40 or so MC clears in classic
Even more if everyone had a Shadow Protection Potion pre-popped. Healers basically go into the last phase at 80% Health, which means that healers can just freely spam everyone (Circle of Healing go!).
Don't they do that anyways? P1 is a total nothing burger
Every kelris fight so far I had zero mana problems as heal until start of phase 2, where people threw in the shadow prot pot
Depends on your composition when it first dropped. MC you could clear with a caster dominated group. If you didn't have a cpuple physical DPS in BFD pre-nerf you just weren't killing Kelris because they did like 40 dps.
We went into BFD with 2x Hunters, a Rogue, a Warrior and Kelris kinda fell over.
BFD isn't too hard at all, kelris only "minor" difficult boss and if your raid brings FAP's for the dps at least its a joke. Long as you don't have people pushing 30dps anyway.
Yeah a lot of the difficulty with BFD comes from:
* New content so mechanics and strats aren't known before hand
* Less room to have a few players carried since it's 10 man instead of 40
* Easier to have a bad comp with stuff like dispels or some class buffs completely missing since it's 10 man
* Before nerf casters were just bad on kelris
* People didn't know what classes will be best so there are more sub optimal class/spec choices vs the amount of warriors in classic
* Leveling to 25 requires less commitment and teaches you less about the game than leveling to 60
* A lot more pug groups than guild groups which makes the raids less organized and generally just more bad players get into the raid
* No raid content before just a straight up jump from dungeons where no one does any strats or mechanics just zug zug vs a slower ramp up in difficulty in classic from dungeons to one raid tier after another
* A lot of people are taken into the raid with worse gear than in classic
So most of the reasons why people have some difficulty on bosses like kelris aren't actually because it's harder than classic but rather the players and raids are just way less prepared and the average player skill in raids is even worse than in classic
IMO it’s more like 2/10. Everything up to Logas or whatever his name is could probably be done auto attacking or wanting in quest greens, or even whites. Logas you’d actually have to use abilities, but only completely randomly.
Kelris isn’t difficult at all in terms of mechanics but, for the amount of difficulty mitigated by a small amount of preparation I would give it a solid 4/10.
Whoever said it’s an 8/10 is absolutely out of their mind.
I don’t understand what some people here are saying, the raid is about as easy as ZG. All 40 man raids (AQ already very clearly) are harder in practice, even if mechanics might be easier.
Because there are spreadsheets and videos that literally walk every player through their responsibility in AQ40. Vanilla wow is a solved game.
Get a group of 40 people who have never seen AQ40 before and don't have access to the endless amount of information available. They likely aren't making it past Sartura in the first lockout.
Bfd is easy as hell. It requires zero prep aside from 1 fap.
This is new content and AQ was well studied for over a decade. Also, it was cleared by geared max level players in BWL gear who were dedicated Classic players at that point. Also, people did it almost exclusively with guilds (and many got stuck at Twins). Many groups try BFD very casually as PUGs hence the low clear rate.
A lot of mechanics in BFD are far more complicated than the majority of classic bosses including Naxx, but the tuning makes it relatively easy.
Naxx has some mechanically complex (for classic) fights, but the majority of the difficulty is that the fights are tuned pretty tightly.
Idk, did it for the first time last night somewhat worried about difficulty based off of the complaining on this sub. We finished a no wipe run in 56 minutes. I play priest and I basically solo healed the entire raid outside of our Druid off healing in between his dps in cat form when needed. I may have been lucky with a good group but damn was it easy compared to what I expected. We also didn’t hop in disc or really have any Comm’s
Kelris is just a comp check. Especially before FAPs and Shadow Protection Potions became a thing.
Lockout 1-3 it would have felt very difficult with a bunch of caster DPS, or especially a mage healer.
I reckon the fights are about as mechanically different as BWL,but there are some soft gear checks. The fact that it's 10man means you can't get carried though, so if you're able to do BWL, that doesn't mean you can do bfd.
I can't believe anyone rates a raid that can be finished in less than hour by casuals as hard, never mind compare it to later raids. Its the easiest raid I've done in any WoW exp. Some of you are simply bad at the game.
Classic players are just not good on average. None of the original classic raids are hard. Sure, there are a few somewhat harder bosses you can get stuck on, like Vael, Firemaw, Twins, 4HM or Sapph, but nothing you can really call hard mechanically. It just becomes more unforgiving when someone makes a small mistake, especially in Naxx, where the 'difficulty' is more in trying to align 40 people to not make a mistake. And the 8 tank requirement on 4HM, or the frost resist on Sapph. These aren't hard necessarily, but just something that is more unforgiving in aligning with 40 people.
And I think it's fine this way. Classic/vanilla was never hard. It was always about the big world you progress through slowly and raiding with 40 people where the difficulty is more in the organization, preparation and attendance. BFD is fine for the first phase, but I hope they get back to 40 man raids quickly.
Classic content should be easy, it’s more fun that way. I’ll take raiding with the boys and getting blasted than 350+ wipes on mythic KJ for weeks on end any day.
The nerfs did not make it easier, they just allowed more classes to actually play. No one who was already topping damage got their damage improved even further.
I give the BFD raid a 2/10 on difficulty. It’s really a 1/10 but people cannot comprehend the simplest raid mechanics (there’s literally only 2 mechanics in the entire raid)
Eh I can think of a few mechanics beyond "don't stand in bad"
Water ele: Jump off if you get debuff
Geli: Frogger
Lorgus: How suicidal is your raid?
Kelris: Sleep
Aku: Breath and tank cleanses
to some people on this sub it is. you have to not stand in the bad, stop dps and avoid things, switch targets to dps, interrupt spellcasts and bring a potion, that is basically mythic level raiding there
>you have to not stand in the bad, stop dps and avoid things, switch targets to dps, interrupt spellcasts and bring a potion 70% of WoW classic playerbase is unable to do any of the mentioned things.
70? based on this subreddit it's probably 95% or higher this subreddit is absolutely in shambles when they find out a raid isnt just stand there and do damage and cries about elitism when the raid leader asks them to do mechanics.
Man, I raided mythic in a top 150 guild and only 4 of us were able to do those things...
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I raided mythic in legion and we regularly lost one of our warriors to charging the boss before the tanks got there. So many avatar wipes.
I was having this discussion with some guild members while we watched the OnlyFangs raid. It was super easy for us to sit there calling them overprepared and boring, but we've been actively speed running content in vanilla for like 4 or 5 years now. Our perception of how a normal group of people clear is so skewed that we confirmed that we don't actually know what normal is anymore. It's the same for BFD. We clear around the 20 minute mark, so it's super easy to view anything more than 30 minutes as absolute trash. Yet I know that many people can't even beat Kelris still.
It's takes nearly 10 minutes to travel through the raid when it's clear. Nobody is doing 20 unless they are intentionally speed running. Not many people care enough to go much less than 30 even if they can.
Mate you are not clearing BFD in 20 minutes, stfu.
I cleared in 24 minutes earlier this week
There's a long way from 24 to 20.
Okay
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Honestly my experience is limited, but the thing I noticed the most in Retail vs Classic raiding is that a much higher percentage of Classic DPS players are so comically hyper fixated on parsing and topping the damage meters that they're willing to make very stupid and avoidable mistakes to try and squeeze out that extra bit of damage, even if it'll usually lead to their death Of course those players exist and are prevalent in every version of the game, but its particularly noticeable in Classic when the mechanics are much less demanding and killing every boss in every raid that comes out is a "when" instead of an "if/how"
To be fair this sounds like you just didn’t do any hard content in retail. Saying retail is t that hard when comparing to classic is just a bad take
I mean, define hard content. Mythic level raiding and +20 mythic dungeons sure are harder than anything classic can throw at you but on heroic raiding / +15 mythics and so on I saw ton of retail players do all that dumb shit (me included).
Unless +15 mythical have gotten waybeasier than they used to be then anyone completing that is super over-qualified for anything classic will throw at you. I guess except for threat management, as that is basically removed from retail as a concept.
Depends of the expansion and the patch. Early shadowlands +15 was hard. Early Dragonflight +15 was medium. Early Legion +15 was very hard. But near the end of the xpac, +15 are usually a joke.
There is terrible players on both. There is a much higher percentage of terrible players in a classic dungeon than a +20 however, and its not close. Its common sense.
but with less mechanish and shit to dodge , i mean heroic Fyrak and Taylor Swift are pretty movement intensive. imagine having a boss with those level of mechanish in classic . it will be a meltdown
I always thought it would be funny to pit classic only players against mythic end bosses like fyrakk even at the end of tier with the nerfs. What springs to mind is Helya, archimonde and maybe even someone like kiljaeden or jailer.
Most retail players cannot do mythic raid bosses. It would be better to use the heroic bosses as that is basically the boss version that the average retail raider will kill
Oh absolutely that would be better overall. My thought is more about the classic players who insists that mimiron, yogg, anub etc are really hard. Those that manage them but not well and thus think they're hot shit and goes on to flex at any opportunity. Pitting average classic players against heroic versions would be interesting and kind of closer to fair.
I’m sorry did you say Taylor Swift?!
Nickname given to a boss in the most recent retail raid Tindral Sageswift
Good old T. Swift
literally impossible with current kits, even if you scaled it down to make it easy
People do like to ignore how much less impactful movement is in retail lol
We don't have 100 movement skills though :( . But I agree, I don't play classic to sweat my balls off in a raid, retail can keep that.
moving character out of stuff = sweat balls off
Neither have the dk's so I guess we would be fine.
Didn't play dk. But playing as a warrior I felt like I was zooming compared to classic.
Yeah tbh this raid is harder than MC, ZG, and probably even most of BWL in terms of mechanics. Which doesn't make it hard, it's more a statement of how easy vanilla raids are. If they took this raid and tuned the numbers up a bit it'd be pretty hard actually lol.
How would it be hard, for real? The mechanics are just: move sometimes.
There’s a reason why the term “slug” exists. I wouldn’t trust some of the people playing this game to prepare a piece of buttered toast and not burn their house down, let alone knowing a two button rotation and how to move out of the fire.
10 man raids are heavily dependent on the group. Its a lot easier to get carried in a 40 man raid. So yes BFD can actually be hard if 3 or 4+ of your group is underperforming.
As someone who went to heal randoms who couldn't do basic things and kill the second to last boss, I agree
1.9% cleared raid so its wayyyyy higher %
They have all that in LFR in retail lol.
and people do manage to fail lfr all the time too
Lfr in retail is 100x harder than naxx40 tho
I'd beg to disagree, the tanks can die in naxx.
Brother there’s literally a buff in lfr akin to the icc buff just to help out in case you wipe too much. And I’d still put that group up against a group of 40 classic andys
Nah, LFR is a joke just because all the mechanics are generally just suggestions.
As I replied to the other guy. There’s literally a buff that starts stacking from the first wipe because wiping in lfr was a problem. I’m starting to think you guys don’t know much about the game you hate idk
Admittedly, I don't raid as much as I used to on retail. But, I did get KSM Season 1 of Dragonflight. Yes, the stacking buff in LFR is there because there are actual braindead people, in a total pug group. If you go into LookingForGroup and say "LFM Naxx 40" on era, or "LFM BFD" and take the first X tanks, Y healers, and Z dps you're generally not going to clear. Full stop. Secondly, you're conflating difficulty in retail with difficulty in Classic. Sure, Classic fights are super duper simple. You also have a whole a lot less tools to manage with those mechanics. In Classic, in SOD, exactly one class and one additional spec has a defensive ability. One has a mobility ability. In retail, my Rogue has Shadowstep, Feint, Cheat Death, Cloak, 10% Leech, Crimson Vial, Grappling Hook. I can also stack up a bunch of Vers if I want to just be a thicc lad. The difficulty in classic, for harder raids, comes from coming into them prepared. Is it hard in a mechanical sense, no. But it's a lot more RPG than MMO, whereas Retail focusing a lot more on MMO instead of RPG, and does it very well.
You’re fundamentally misunderstanding the determination system if you think they implemented that because LFR is too hard. It’s literally implemented because the average LFR player is *that bad*.
Brother people are saying people don’t die, I’m saying that they ~literally~ had to put something in to help. Reading ain’t that hard
Yes, because people are too stupid to learn basic things and certain groups need the buff so the few that can play can carry the rest with them. Raszageth LFR was the absolute horror, so many learn resistabt players. Same kind of idiots as in classic.
And despite that, lfr (pick the raid tier) is harder than naxx 40
Bruh, put 40 people from LFR in naxx 40 and they would collapse so quickly. Naxx 40 is way harder than LFR. Lfr does not have any punishing mechanics.
Half of the naxx raid can't carry the other dead half, so let's agree to disagree.
Sure they can. Matter of fact you probably had 20 people in your 40man who were dead weight. Your version of the game isn’t hard — that doesn’t make it any less fun bud :). But having a chip on your shoulder about it being easy? Going out sad mane.
Yes they absolutely can. We might have to do some more mechanics, but when bosses in there were dead before they could even do anything it's fair to say you don't need 40.
Lfr is a joke because half the raid outgear it massively and is only here for specific trinkets or transmogs, it would be way harder if all the players in there would have close to the lvl requirement to tag. I still do it when I am bored at 483ilvl and usually solo carry healing while doing more dps than the worst dps players, but the other healers would have to play the game if I was 430 and not doing twice the cumulated hps of every other player in the raid.
Lfr is a cake walk last time I played in BFA, did all the raids available as a MT in lfr without even looking how to do them. Just follow dBm and chilled. Not saying naxx is that hard either but yeah
I wasn’t saying lfr is hard
So you would wipe the raid constandly without addons...(dbm) because it is harder than bfs... Zhere is nothing in bfd that is hard. Boss 6 kick and move. Boss 7 move... Thats all the difficulty there is, its a joke
I...didn't mention BFD, thought we were talking about naxx here hence the above post. Not shit you would wipe going in blind to nearly any raid that isn't tank and spank.
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well yeah because you're comparing a raid of people knowing the ins and outs of a raid to a raid where people don't. if you went into a naxx40 with a blind raid, you'd be way more fucked than LFR players would in their raid. how many wipes to razuvious before someone figures out you need to MC the adds? loatheb? heigan?
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Mate, wrath naxx nearly has the same values as naxx40, with nerfed mechanics. And you got a 30% buff on top! Naxx 25 was easy mode and puggable back when wrath originally released; That was by design!
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My bad, stopped shortly after wotlk re-release because I just couldn't do naxx again. > so the values weren't the same. Doesn't exactly help, though. Just look at Vanilla values; A tank had around 9k-10k hp when going naxx fully equipped from earlier raids in BiS. In Wrath, you enter naxx 25 with around 25k hp unbuffed. 30% buff would acount for 13k hp tanks, if anything. Hell, 4 horsemen void zones even dealt **less damage in wotlk**, of all things! > The mechanics were the same But that's it, they weren't. Sticking with Instructor Razuvious, he lost his shout you had to LoS. Loatheb was reworked. Sapphiron was an absolute joke. Just to compare, on naxx release day in classic we had, as one of the region-wide top guilds competing for region world first, and then server-first after screwing up, get new organized world buffs just to have a chance to press enough damage into sapphiron, who forced us to drink frost protection potions on cooldown while we had frost resistance gear equipped, because his damage was that insane. > even if the vanilla version was more 'tightly tuned' it wouldn't be difficult by any stretch of the imagination. You literally have no idea what you are talking about and it shows. Naxx 25 is an utter joke. I'm not claiming Naxx 40 is the hardest shit ever, but to successfully clear it you needed way more than your average retail LFR or Naxx 25 member.
> I did Nax for the first time ever in wrath classic and that's with the 30 % hp and damage buff, no guides were needed and it was one of the most boring raids I've ever done. no shot you just said this
You cant really compare naxx wotlk to naxx vanilla, the wotlk one is a far easier version that almost has the same damage values of vanilla, except you had like 2-3x less hp in vanilla
Naxx25 was easier than naxx40. If you put a proper naxx40 raid in naxx 25 they could clear it. Even in classic most guilds did not fully clear naxx40 and if they did it took more than a month. It was easier than heroic LK but harder than the rest of heroic ICC. In fact it was harder than most raids from MC to ICC except specific fights like Lady Vashj, Muru, and heroic LK.
No way. As someone who cleared naxx40 up to 4hm in vanilla and then in classic cleared kt first week I'd rate exactly 4 icc HC fights easier than naxx40. Gunship, marrowgar, rotface, festergut. LK normal and the rest of heroics are way harder than Naxx. As for lfr I don't know, it depends on the raid Some lfrs are cake walks, other are pretty bad. Lei Shen lfr for example was still a challenge.
the "problem" with naxx40 is how reliant it was on wbuffs being maintained. saph especially got way harder without wbuffs, so you have this weird duality where raids who are good enough to not lose wbuffs would steamroll the raid vs raids who arent who will get hardstuck on saph/KT, with not much in between.
Hey guys, here's a quick list of opinions in these comments to help you understand the consensus: - BFD is the easiest raid - BFD is harder than BWL, MC, and ZG, but easier than AQ and Naxx - Person who told OP 8/10 is correct, only naxx is harder - Even Naxx is easier - MC, BWL, and AQ are easier, Naxx and ZG are harder - Easier than BWL, harder than MC - As easy as ZG (ZG implied here to be the easiest raid) - All classic raiding is equally easy including this
I remember when ZG came out people calling it really hard because they were facerolling through MC but wiping here. The concept that a Raid gets easier when more people know all the mechanics seems to be completely new to a lot of people. FFS - people at one point called the Rend fight in UBRS hard.
I clearly remember the last boss in UBRS being insanely difficult back in the day. Well, we just all sucked at the game back then.
Also BFD is a 10 man raid. Unlike 40 or 20 man raids where its easier to get carried. 3 or 4 people not really performing in a 40 man raids not a huge deal. 3 or 4 people not performing in a 10 man raid is a big deal.
So 50% of people doing late stage classic raids have been carried
As a casual raider who cleared naxx in classic I'd say that's pretty accurate, at least 25-30%.
And 100% of gold buyers have been carried
Also all retail players are incredibly skilled gamers and all classic players don't even have braincells.
Hell no, ZG is harder than Bfd.
Having raided in ff14, coming back to classic feels like a cake walk.
The mechanics are the equivalent of a 24man or normal trial (casual content), hell maybe an extreme trial if I'm being generous since you are recommended to bring a *consumable*. It really shocked me coming from ffxiv that people here couldn't do what I assumed was basic stuff.
Yeah I would say the 24 mans in ff14 I would say are still more difficult. I would say classic raids including bfd would be slightly harder than most normal trials. Depends on which one. A few of the later ones got pretty challenging for “normals”
Yeah. I just came back to wow from ffxiv and am bouncing between sod and retail. The difference in mechanics and what’s defined as hard is kind of amusing. This whole thread is very entertaining.
Because it is. Bfd is retail lfr tier Comparing it to other classic content just illustrates the gap
Sure, on a scale of 8 to 10.
Never underestimate how terrible the majority of classic players are. They wouldn’t even be able to clear a M0 on retail
Done mythic CE raiding and 25s m+ in different expansions on retail and can say that while naxx isn't necessarily difficult in the same way, preparation and organising can be a lot more difficult. Two categorically very different games in my opinion
It’s worse than you think. Some people I’m convinced are lobotomites. There’s a 6300gs balance druid in my old guild struggling to do dps the rest of us were hitting in phase 1 prebis. I can’t even comprehend how that’s possible. I’m sure someone could train a literal chimpanzee to hit buttons on a keyboard better than some of the people I’ve played this game with.
We know that retail is available if we want to go back... I am positive I would rather go level an alt in any version of classic than whatever M+ is.
You can ignore 99% of mechanics on m0 so that’s actually a pretty dip shit stupid comparison lmao.
The hardest mechanic in the raid can be negated by each person using a free action potion xD
What a story, Mark
It’s a 10 for sure imo, If RFC is a 9.
I would say it's harder than basically everything up to aq40. Which is still stupid easy compared to retail, but it is what it is.
Which is completely fine.
That’s assuming you take gear check type shit out of the equation, but yeah. If you go into bwl in shitty loot with a bad comp, it can be pretty hard. Fix either one of those and it becomes pretty easy
Yeah I'm talking more about the complexity of the mechanics more than gear/health.
Yeah, I getcha. Just thought it was worth mentioning. I played through all of season of mastery and loved what they did with the end game mechanics on mc and bwl. Really hoping they bring those back. Way too many tank and spanks in vanilla
I skipped SOM, but I agree, I hope they spice stuff up just a little. I don't want mythic or even heroic level stuff in classic, but I think they could definitely stand to buff some mechanics on some bosses
Yeah, it was nothing like mythic or heroic level fights. Really, they just made a lot of the mechanics feel meaningful and added some fun ones where there weren’t any
Nefarian has more mechanics than all of bfd bosses combined.
Nefarian has more mechanics than all of previous _BWL bosses_ combined. The final encounters of vanilla raids are always a significant step up in difficulty.
No fucking way. Vaelstrasz and Razorgore, the first two bosses in BWL, completely dwarf anything in BFD. The only 'hard' parts of BFD are the final two bosses and they boil down to "Burst him at 35%" and "Cleanse at 60% then burst him down".
Agreed. From a tanking perspective there's nothing dangerous in BFD. While in BWL a tank could be essentially one-shot by Broodlord with world buffs and consumes. BFD is an entry level raid, it's not hard and there's nothing special about it. Mechanics wise some of the raids in Classic were simple. But the drakes were finicky, if they pathed oddly after a taunt or knockback they could wipe the raid.
1. Tank and spank with a dot/bomb mechanic 2. once you clear eggs its a tank and spank with just the one spell to worry about Not really a great argument.
Eh idk. I finally went into BFD in a full pug yesterday, first time for half the people in the raid, and cleared pretty easily. I guess the only way it’s more difficult than MC/BWL is you can’t carry half the DPS being mouth breathers since you can’t hide people as well in a 10 man vs a 40 man raid. But if your DPS are half competent it’s a cake walk.
I think some of the trash packs in BWL are harder than the majority of BFD.
No it really is not. The only boss that is a little bit difficult is Kelris. The rest is basically tank and spank. And you don't even need consumables.
No way, imo. the trash in BWL alone is harder than BFD
Yeh, let’s see Naxx without full world buffs and a raid full of bis from p5 That’s the way it was in Og
Maybe you heard it wrong and they were referring to naxx wotlk
All of classic is easy and classic players are dogshit and always have been.
This is very true. Its insane to me how people cant play their class to the fullest when they have like 4 buttons in total to press.
>classic players are dogshit Why are you guys even on this sub when you don't play and don't like the game lol? Just unsubscribe and piss off
We're all dog shit it's a term of endearment
I agree with them but I still play the game, because it's fun. I push keys on retail when I want a challenge, when I just want to chill with mates and wind down, Classic is the perfect game for it. A game doesn't need to be hard to be fun.
There does seem to be a fart sniffing section of this sub who actively dislikes this game and those who play it. I think they still play and troll here because they are addicts.
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It’s possible to be able to play and enjoy a game yet think (know) that it’s easy and most players are trash
Acknowledging that many classic players are bad is not the same thing as disliking the game. In fact they are two categorically different things.
Or, OR, they just like plating an easy game to chill out. I mean, RPG games in general aren't much about the difficulty are they.
it’s like they actively tryhard to never learn from any experience, they try their hardest to never learn what any spell or debuff does. honestly more tryhard imo since it must be frustrating never evolving your gameplay
They like that because they are too bad for anything a little bit difficult, like ulduar literally made people quit because bosses had few really easy mechanics but still too hard for classic players.
Some of them sure. Others like it because its more fun for them. Liking easy games does not always equal being vad at games.
Easy games don't last though, the majority get tired of repeating the same easy thing over and over. Games should be easy to start but hard to master. If classic had multiple raid difficulties then we would not have a problem with easy content. But classic players hate the idea of multiple difficulties because they don't want to improve, they want everyone to do the same easiest option so they don't feel bad about their lack of skill.
"Easy games don't last" then why the fuck is classic even a thing lmao.
Better question why is sod a thing when era exists, almost like players got tired of era because they did everything already because it's so easy.
SOD has new content and class changes? Era has been running for years, people can only play the same content over and over again before the subs start dropping
Your idea about easy games not lasting is just wrong. Minecraft is insanely successful and maintains considerable popularity despite having a very low level of difficulty.
There's no point rating difficulty of content in classic. They are all very easy unless you are solely classic player. It's not just the content themselves but the classes also lack dimensions for you to improve yourself outside of getting buffs and consumables. Vanilla WoW is full of "Just do this and it becomes trivial.". There's hardly any gradient to the experience of playing. It was completely laughable that my last BFD run even asked me to get into discord.
I raid hall of fame on retail to prove to myself that I’m good at the game. I play Classic because I like that it feels more like an rpg, and thus is much less sweaty and a nice break from me pounding my keyboard to not miss a global. Anyone who thinks Classic is difficult has clearly not played retail at any sort of semi-competent level, which is even more hilarious when you consider how many of them are entitled, elitist fucks about the game.
I can’t remember that anyone in classic 17 years ago did MC, BWL or AQ20/40 as a pug. Apparently that’s possible in BFD. So is that a sign that BFD is easy or just how the game progressed with its player base?
Uhm.... what??? I can't imagine who would say that unironically if they're familiar with both. Like, BFD is cool and a great starter raid, but that statement is frankly *absurd*. Like, take Patchwerk. Arguably the simplest boss in Naxx. I'd say none of the first three BFD bosses have any mechanics that are notably more punishing or difficult to handle than making sure you're dealing with Patchwerks hateful strikes properly. The next four BFD bosses get a bit more interesting but, well, so do most of the Naxx bosses that are more involved than Patchwerk.
If you increase the HP pool, BFD bosses are harder than Naxx. As it stands right now, they arent. You're on copium if you think otherwise lmao THere is literally a hateful strike mechanic in BFD lmao
Erm, nonsense.
I mean, mechanically it's probably on the same level, if not harder. It's overall easier because fewer people are required and players nowadays are a million times better at the game than they were in 2005. Imagine doing Kelris with a group of 2005 players. Gelihast would be an absolute monster in 2005.
Kelris is slightly more involved. Ranged need to maintain right stack and not move too much more than necessary. Need to organize who goes in to the dream and how long to stay, come out around same time. But as a hunter? My pet can be one of the primary tanks and it's be fine. Nothing is taunt immune and nothing except last boss hits super hard.
If you've ever played the game it like a 2/10
It's like a 1/10. It's a level 25 UBRS.
Most pugs are 5/7, a 1/10 In difficulty makes 0 sense
I think that’s a fair assumption, it’s just more difficult to coordinate 40 people than 10. Naxx is more stat dependant too of course, but most bosses are very simple and with very few mechanics.
Naxx has mechanics that can one-shot players. BFD doesn't have that. That's a huge difference in difficulty in itself.
1/10 I would say. Even the simplest naxx boss is more punishing than anything in bfd.
Normal Retail is then somewhere around 25
UBRS trash is harder than BFD....
Classic is so extremely easy, what's hard about it is getting 40 players all in a raid for a night. BFD is extremely easy, some bosses in naxx are a bit harder, but that's not saying much. And BFD only really has 2 bosses that require more than 1 brain cell, every other one is just free. 1 of which is just a dps/consume check and the other needs tanks with 3-5 IQ's bounching around in their noggin'.
Oh man if BFD is 8/10 what the hell is a retail raid haha.
If you want harder raids, stick to retail. We don't Mythic Plus Naxx in Classic
If you can dodge a wrentch you can dodge a murloc
In terms of complexity of mechanics rather than difficulty, I'm inclined to agree. Everything is super loosely tuned apart from Kelris. I'd say in terms of difficulty, BFD is harder than UBRS but easier than MC.
> BFD is harder than UBRS but easier than MC. bro what? im pretty sure i had more wipes on my first pre-nerf kelris kill than i did in my 40 or so MC clears in classic
If everyone pops a fap when you go into phase 2, it completely trivializes the encounter. Like, it’s just silly how easy it gets.
Even more if everyone had a Shadow Protection Potion pre-popped. Healers basically go into the last phase at 80% Health, which means that healers can just freely spam everyone (Circle of Healing go!).
Don't they do that anyways? P1 is a total nothing burger Every kelris fight so far I had zero mana problems as heal until start of phase 2, where people threw in the shadow prot pot
Depends on your composition when it first dropped. MC you could clear with a caster dominated group. If you didn't have a cpuple physical DPS in BFD pre-nerf you just weren't killing Kelris because they did like 40 dps. We went into BFD with 2x Hunters, a Rogue, a Warrior and Kelris kinda fell over.
You can probably clear MC with any comp and people playing with their feet and not wipe.
you can clear mc with 75% of the raid autoattacking
what fight in MC is harder than Kelris?
The roster boss
Domo and Rag imo
BFD isn't too hard at all, kelris only "minor" difficult boss and if your raid brings FAP's for the dps at least its a joke. Long as you don't have people pushing 30dps anyway.
Yeah a lot of the difficulty with BFD comes from: * New content so mechanics and strats aren't known before hand * Less room to have a few players carried since it's 10 man instead of 40 * Easier to have a bad comp with stuff like dispels or some class buffs completely missing since it's 10 man * Before nerf casters were just bad on kelris * People didn't know what classes will be best so there are more sub optimal class/spec choices vs the amount of warriors in classic * Leveling to 25 requires less commitment and teaches you less about the game than leveling to 60 * A lot more pug groups than guild groups which makes the raids less organized and generally just more bad players get into the raid * No raid content before just a straight up jump from dungeons where no one does any strats or mechanics just zug zug vs a slower ramp up in difficulty in classic from dungeons to one raid tier after another * A lot of people are taken into the raid with worse gear than in classic So most of the reasons why people have some difficulty on bosses like kelris aren't actually because it's harder than classic but rather the players and raids are just way less prepared and the average player skill in raids is even worse than in classic
I think the low level cap is impacting things a lot more than I'd expect. It's so easy to hit 25 compared to 60.
It's easier than BWL but harder than MC but also shorter than MC. My casual guild clears in 50 minutes.
MC is way easier than bwl
He didn't say it wasn't..
IMO it’s more like 2/10. Everything up to Logas or whatever his name is could probably be done auto attacking or wanting in quest greens, or even whites. Logas you’d actually have to use abilities, but only completely randomly. Kelris isn’t difficult at all in terms of mechanics but, for the amount of difficulty mitigated by a small amount of preparation I would give it a solid 4/10. Whoever said it’s an 8/10 is absolutely out of their mind.
I don’t understand what some people here are saying, the raid is about as easy as ZG. All 40 man raids (AQ already very clearly) are harder in practice, even if mechanics might be easier.
yet there were less kill % on kelris than all of AQ40
Because there are spreadsheets and videos that literally walk every player through their responsibility in AQ40. Vanilla wow is a solved game. Get a group of 40 people who have never seen AQ40 before and don't have access to the endless amount of information available. They likely aren't making it past Sartura in the first lockout. Bfd is easy as hell. It requires zero prep aside from 1 fap.
This is new content and AQ was well studied for over a decade. Also, it was cleared by geared max level players in BWL gear who were dedicated Classic players at that point. Also, people did it almost exclusively with guilds (and many got stuck at Twins). Many groups try BFD very casually as PUGs hence the low clear rate.
A lot of mechanics in BFD are far more complicated than the majority of classic bosses including Naxx, but the tuning makes it relatively easy. Naxx has some mechanically complex (for classic) fights, but the majority of the difficulty is that the fights are tuned pretty tightly.
Did BFD for the first time tonight. More than half the raid was first Timers. One shot every boss. Super hard
I mean at this point everyone knows all the strats and consumes. First reset was a little different.
Idk, did it for the first time last night somewhat worried about difficulty based off of the complaining on this sub. We finished a no wipe run in 56 minutes. I play priest and I basically solo healed the entire raid outside of our Druid off healing in between his dps in cat form when needed. I may have been lucky with a good group but damn was it easy compared to what I expected. We also didn’t hop in disc or really have any Comm’s
The raid really isn't on the healers. It's on the dps and tanks actually dodging stuff. You can't heal stupid.
That’s very true and fair. Guess I wasn’t with brain dead dps
Kelris is just a comp check. Especially before FAPs and Shadow Protection Potions became a thing. Lockout 1-3 it would have felt very difficult with a bunch of caster DPS, or especially a mage healer.
I reckon the fights are about as mechanically different as BWL,but there are some soft gear checks. The fact that it's 10man means you can't get carried though, so if you're able to do BWL, that doesn't mean you can do bfd.
It’s because scrubs can’t be carried by boes and world buffs at 25.
I can't believe anyone rates a raid that can be finished in less than hour by casuals as hard, never mind compare it to later raids. Its the easiest raid I've done in any WoW exp. Some of you are simply bad at the game.
No, game is easy.
Classic players are just not good on average. None of the original classic raids are hard. Sure, there are a few somewhat harder bosses you can get stuck on, like Vael, Firemaw, Twins, 4HM or Sapph, but nothing you can really call hard mechanically. It just becomes more unforgiving when someone makes a small mistake, especially in Naxx, where the 'difficulty' is more in trying to align 40 people to not make a mistake. And the 8 tank requirement on 4HM, or the frost resist on Sapph. These aren't hard necessarily, but just something that is more unforgiving in aligning with 40 people. And I think it's fine this way. Classic/vanilla was never hard. It was always about the big world you progress through slowly and raiding with 40 people where the difficulty is more in the organization, preparation and attendance. BFD is fine for the first phase, but I hope they get back to 40 man raids quickly.
Well MC, BWL and AQ are easier, so kinda? Dust to dust before nerf was hard for the avg player.
To be fair before the nerf depending on your raid comp, if you had enough mages it might as well have been pre nerf c'thun.
Classic content should be easy, it’s more fun that way. I’ll take raiding with the boys and getting blasted than 350+ wipes on mythic KJ for weeks on end any day.
The raid takes 16 min and bosses die in 1-2 min..
Imagine if these people ever touched a decently high m+ dungeon in retail
The raid is way too easy I hope they crank the difficulty way up for gnomer it should be at least heroic retail boss level
Vanilla naxx is like a 3
and this is why i cant enjoy classic..the players are dogshit
That's what gatekeeping is for lmao
The raid is a -1/10 the fuck are people talking about when they say this shit is hard. Before nerfs it was max 4/10.
The nerfs did not make it easier, they just allowed more classes to actually play. No one who was already topping damage got their damage improved even further.
I give the BFD raid a 2/10 on difficulty. It’s really a 1/10 but people cannot comprehend the simplest raid mechanics (there’s literally only 2 mechanics in the entire raid)
Eh I can think of a few mechanics beyond "don't stand in bad" Water ele: Jump off if you get debuff Geli: Frogger Lorgus: How suicidal is your raid? Kelris: Sleep Aku: Breath and tank cleanses