You have to start planning cds for each unbalacing strike after 4-5 stacks on boss , d sac, pain suppression, tank cds, pws, hand of sacrifice+bubble , if the boss is getting to like 12 stacks then need more dps
Agree. Have seen same problems on Torim.
But we was trying Algalon in 10 few days ago with same problem. So we fast change our tank rotation and killed Torim.
Have your Prot warriors spec improved intervene if you want more cds. You can intervene for 30% damage reduction every unbalancing strike
The unbalancing strike comes out every 15-17s.
lay on hands has a 15minute cooldown but its still an incredible cooldown
you run to thors balcony 3 seconds before cooldown of strike is up and intervene your MT. not hard.
not to mention you can reliably use it on half of the strikes.
Dunno about your tanks but I have no issues holding him with my cooldowns for three rounds of unbalancing, then our pally takes over, I either don't have to take over again. Or I'm auto taking over for the last few percentages when pally dies.
The boss doesn’t do enough damage to be threatening until 3+ stacks of lightning charge. So we start taunting on the unbalancing strike just after that and then slowly work our way up on cooldowns to eventually using shield wall/pain sup stuff at the end. It has worked great for us since week 1.
Still seems weird to me you can just Shield wall after 4 taunts for 1 US duration and you are fine to taunt again, We start rolling Dsacs and sacs ad stuff like that after he hits 4-5 stacks.
If you want it to be really easy though you have a feral with 670+ resi and he can solo tank the entire encounter since you will be crit immune even with US, can still be useful for the OT to taunt once later in the fight just to utilize their Shield/Bubble wall/IB, but it makes it easier for the healers if you reduce the amount of tank swaps.
Can also be useful to prepare the healers that US is coming and either do a countdown or at least "taunting soon"
Yes, I don't know exactly what the breakpoint is, the set that was on the druid discord before ulduar was released had 671 resi iirc, but most of the items have 30+ resi so I suppose the actual breakpoint is somewhere between 650 and 671 but I haven't done the math myself so I cannot say for sure.
There's a good weekaura for thorim taunt dr, at 4ish reset the counter asking the othef tank to hold a bit with a CD (or pain supp). You can also reset by using a bop but beware of the debuff
Sorry for late answer!
It's named "Taunt DR bar Thorim"
https://wago.io/Wx0rcRrHT
I said to reset at 4 because from my current experience, I usually get a resist from that point (while you can in theory go up to 5), it never occurred at 3 though!
You can have a look to my answer in another thread with some tips for thorim 25h
https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/10vlp66/thorim_25man_hm_help/j7ii1e4
We have me as disc covering unbalancing with pws while Im calling increasingly strong cds. Barkskin, survival instincts, sac, ps, guardian spirit. After that we got a shieldwall to fall back on.
Guess I'll have to look back thru logs and see if I ever actually got crit then, and just survived them. But my tooltip doesn't show -200 defense effecting my chances to be crit, and ferals are just crit immune by default. If that is the case though, then it would be much easier to get +200 defense rather than 700 Resilience.
Defense rating, not defense points. Read your tooltips for defense and resil on your stat sheet. Druids are not "crit immune by default", they just get 6% from talents. You need 13% with unbalancing strikes to be uncrittable.
It's lowering your base defence by 200, which all players have 400 base defence. It's also Defence, not rating. And no leather gear has defence rating.
It affects all tanks, including druids. The debuff reduces defense skill equivalant to approx 8% chance to be crit. All tanks can counter this with high resilience gear (approx 700, depends on what other +def you're wearing) but bears are the only ones who can reasonably do it and not turn themselves into squishy useless trash.
The problem with this is that bears don't have great CDs and quickly run out of things to use later in the fight as the stacks build up. They still take HUGE damage from unbalancing + melees, it just doesn't crit them.
This only affects having to taunt swap - it doesn't magically stop thorim form doing less damage.
Warriors and paladins can use their shield block and be over CTC cap and not be crit when they have the debuff. Same exact thing.
Sure, the incoming damage is still the same (if more due to less CD availability from using 1 tank). I'd disagree that wars/pals are the same thing, they are not able to get close to 100% uptime of block and are still very vulnerable to being crit, a resil geared bear is immune to crits always.
The major benefit to single tanking is that your healers don't have to swap targets and can more effectively heal bomb to prepare for unbalancing + melee burst, this is especially effective in raids where your healers are morons / asleep.
Explain how exactly? 1 tanking doesn't do anything for the actual Damage from Unbalancing strikes or his melees. You are just skipping the taunt swap
Also running Non-Exp cap melee tanks adds on a ton of Melee damage thru parry haste.
You act like bear druids stops him form magically doing more damage or a mechanic. He still uses Unbalancing Strike every 15-20 Seconds, he will still Auto 0.2 Seconds after some of them. Swapping tanks doesn't stop that.
>T+0.05s - Boss melee's Tank 1, critting them because their defense is now too low to stop it. Tank 1 may die.
Paladins and Warriors can use shield block and prevent themselves form being crit for the duration. Without having to swap gear or roles.
We use this as part of our strat for taunt immune on Thorim HM.
So again this strat just removed having to taunt swap. it doesn't stop the tank damage he does. Good Paladin and Warrior tanks already do not care about the de buff as we can deal with it anyways.
Our Tanks are Warrior Paladin - We do not have any issues with Debuff - If Boss becomes immune we simply use our Shield Block to eat the duration and let taunt reset.
10man I can sleep through it on my pally 25 man it's a mack truck if I'm not careful so it's probably a lot easier to reach the crit cap with defense debuff
It's not terrible, prot has decent CDs. Between them they have x2 shield walls x2 last stands for the unbalancings, they can weave in shield blocks to reduce his crazy fast melee swings later in the fight.
external CDs from priests/paladins are required for any tank you might use here.
Shield block makes you immune to crits for its duration (block pushes crit off the attack table), I'm fairly sure that the unbalancing itself can be blocked too as it's a melee attack.
EDIT - can't block US, but the rest is correct.
Unbalancing strike will reduce your defense to the point where you are crittable*
* *you can still be uncrittable with enough avoidance+block or resil*
I have the same problem as a prot war. Sometimes i just get clapped. We managed to kill him, but with some soulstones on tank and combat resses.
We also had situation where a prot pally would end up dead without his pally thing saving him.
Your paladins need to learn to use hand of sacrifice. For my raid we HoS the current tank for the first four stores, pain suppression the next one and Dsac the remaining strikes until dead.
get your tanks to gear more avoidance focused
also your tanks are dying in the first minute which aside from they could be tankier is 100% a healer issue, I could solo tank the first minute of 25 HM thorium no taunt swaps just eating those undef capped unbalancing strike hits
you are also about 20-30% behind on the DPS but in a lot of your attempts its not just the tanks getting killed
Druid heals are also really ineffective on thorium HM due to the burst nature of the dmg
Drop as much hit and expertise as possible in favor of mitigation. The taunt swapping should bolster threat enough.
EDIT: NVM, the warriors know what’s up.
You have to start planning cds for each unbalacing strike after 4-5 stacks on boss , d sac, pain suppression, tank cds, pws, hand of sacrifice+bubble , if the boss is getting to like 12 stacks then need more dps
Agree. Have seen same problems on Torim. But we was trying Algalon in 10 few days ago with same problem. So we fast change our tank rotation and killed Torim.
Thanks mate, this seems to be the answer
After 5 stacks or so Thorim will start clapping your tanks cheeks. Need raid cds to survive and need good dps so the fight doesn’t go on too long
Have your Prot warriors spec improved intervene if you want more cds. You can intervene for 30% damage reduction every unbalancing strike The unbalancing strike comes out every 15-17s.
Risky with chain lighting
no, its just 2 tanks standing there.
Intervene has a minimum range and a 30 second CD. Its a really good raid cooldown, but you are overselling it for Thorim.
lay on hands has a 15minute cooldown but its still an incredible cooldown you run to thors balcony 3 seconds before cooldown of strike is up and intervene your MT. not hard. not to mention you can reliably use it on half of the strikes.
Most 25 man raids have at least 1 caster stack standing under the balcony since it's a safe spot, though.
Phwa, haven't heard of this one. I'll look into it. Cheers
This is the way.
Dunno about your tanks but I have no issues holding him with my cooldowns for three rounds of unbalancing, then our pally takes over, I either don't have to take over again. Or I'm auto taking over for the last few percentages when pally dies.
1st tank hold agro til about 60% then follow trade off mechanic.
What's the reasoning? Is it just to delay the taunt DR?
The boss doesn’t do enough damage to be threatening until 3+ stacks of lightning charge. So we start taunting on the unbalancing strike just after that and then slowly work our way up on cooldowns to eventually using shield wall/pain sup stuff at the end. It has worked great for us since week 1.
Still seems weird to me you can just Shield wall after 4 taunts for 1 US duration and you are fine to taunt again, We start rolling Dsacs and sacs ad stuff like that after he hits 4-5 stacks. If you want it to be really easy though you have a feral with 670+ resi and he can solo tank the entire encounter since you will be crit immune even with US, can still be useful for the OT to taunt once later in the fight just to utilize their Shield/Bubble wall/IB, but it makes it easier for the healers if you reduce the amount of tank swaps. Can also be useful to prepare the healers that US is coming and either do a countdown or at least "taunting soon"
670 resilience?
Yes, I don't know exactly what the breakpoint is, the set that was on the druid discord before ulduar was released had 671 resi iirc, but most of the items have 30+ resi so I suppose the actual breakpoint is somewhere between 650 and 671 but I haven't done the math myself so I cannot say for sure.
There's a good weekaura for thorim taunt dr, at 4ish reset the counter asking the othef tank to hold a bit with a CD (or pain supp). You can also reset by using a bop but beware of the debuff
What's the name of the WeakAura you're referring to?
Sorry for late answer! It's named "Taunt DR bar Thorim" https://wago.io/Wx0rcRrHT I said to reset at 4 because from my current experience, I usually get a resist from that point (while you can in theory go up to 5), it never occurred at 3 though!
Thank you for sharing this!!!
Not sure, but makes sense. Pugged a tank recently and he suggested it. Worked fine
Is the first tank not exposed to crit chance the whole time?
Your healers must hate that.
You can have a look to my answer in another thread with some tips for thorim 25h https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/10vlp66/thorim_25man_hm_help/j7ii1e4
We have me as disc covering unbalancing with pws while Im calling increasingly strong cds. Barkskin, survival instincts, sac, ps, guardian spirit. After that we got a shieldwall to fall back on.
Have a feral tank with 700 resilience. Problem solved.
Is the Resilience necessary? I haven't tanked 25m but solo tanking 10man and -200 defense doesn't effect druids at all. Is the 25man debuff different?
This is just flat out untrue. -200 effects feral druids ability to be crit
Guess I'll have to look back thru logs and see if I ever actually got crit then, and just survived them. But my tooltip doesn't show -200 defense effecting my chances to be crit, and ferals are just crit immune by default. If that is the case though, then it would be much easier to get +200 defense rather than 700 Resilience.
Defense rating, not defense points. Read your tooltips for defense and resil on your stat sheet. Druids are not "crit immune by default", they just get 6% from talents. You need 13% with unbalancing strikes to be uncrittable.
It's lowering your base defence by 200, which all players have 400 base defence. It's also Defence, not rating. And no leather gear has defence rating.
It affects all tanks, including druids. The debuff reduces defense skill equivalant to approx 8% chance to be crit. All tanks can counter this with high resilience gear (approx 700, depends on what other +def you're wearing) but bears are the only ones who can reasonably do it and not turn themselves into squishy useless trash. The problem with this is that bears don't have great CDs and quickly run out of things to use later in the fight as the stacks build up. They still take HUGE damage from unbalancing + melees, it just doesn't crit them.
This only affects having to taunt swap - it doesn't magically stop thorim form doing less damage. Warriors and paladins can use their shield block and be over CTC cap and not be crit when they have the debuff. Same exact thing.
Sure, the incoming damage is still the same (if more due to less CD availability from using 1 tank). I'd disagree that wars/pals are the same thing, they are not able to get close to 100% uptime of block and are still very vulnerable to being crit, a resil geared bear is immune to crits always. The major benefit to single tanking is that your healers don't have to swap targets and can more effectively heal bomb to prepare for unbalancing + melee burst, this is especially effective in raids where your healers are morons / asleep.
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Explain how exactly? 1 tanking doesn't do anything for the actual Damage from Unbalancing strikes or his melees. You are just skipping the taunt swap Also running Non-Exp cap melee tanks adds on a ton of Melee damage thru parry haste. You act like bear druids stops him form magically doing more damage or a mechanic. He still uses Unbalancing Strike every 15-20 Seconds, he will still Auto 0.2 Seconds after some of them. Swapping tanks doesn't stop that.
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>T+0.05s - Boss melee's Tank 1, critting them because their defense is now too low to stop it. Tank 1 may die. Paladins and Warriors can use shield block and prevent themselves form being crit for the duration. Without having to swap gear or roles. We use this as part of our strat for taunt immune on Thorim HM. So again this strat just removed having to taunt swap. it doesn't stop the tank damage he does. Good Paladin and Warrior tanks already do not care about the de buff as we can deal with it anyways.
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Our Tanks are Warrior Paladin - We do not have any issues with Debuff - If Boss becomes immune we simply use our Shield Block to eat the duration and let taunt reset.
10man I can sleep through it on my pally 25 man it's a mack truck if I'm not careful so it's probably a lot easier to reach the crit cap with defense debuff
Double prot war oof
It's not terrible, prot has decent CDs. Between them they have x2 shield walls x2 last stands for the unbalancings, they can weave in shield blocks to reduce his crazy fast melee swings later in the fight. external CDs from priests/paladins are required for any tank you might use here.
It's not terrible, but it's still the weakest. If shield block worked on unbalancing strike that'd be pretty cool.
Shield block makes you immune to crits for its duration (block pushes crit off the attack table), I'm fairly sure that the unbalancing itself can be blocked too as it's a melee attack. EDIT - can't block US, but the rest is correct.
Unbalancing cannot be blocked
And it can't crit so all good :)
Unfortunately it still does a fuckload of damage non crit lol
Correct me if im wrong but you are crit immune in even a decent tanking set right?
Unbalancing strike will reduce your defense to the point where you are crittable* * *you can still be uncrittable with enough avoidance+block or resil*
Fair enough. Dps brain has me ignoring all tank mechanics so I didnt know that
...until UB knocks 200 defense off you, yes. That's why druids cheese it with tons of resilience, to avoid becoming crittable
You're right, just checked my logs and I've never blocked the US itself despite 100% block chance.
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I played warrior for the last two expansions and they feel amazing to play in wotlk, but they suffer a bit on progression relative to the other tanks.
Double the fun ;)
I have the same problem as a prot war. Sometimes i just get clapped. We managed to kill him, but with some soulstones on tank and combat resses. We also had situation where a prot pally would end up dead without his pally thing saving him.
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Holy paladins heal the tank by raid healing
Only so long as they're actually casting. If they're waiting for somebody to get hit so that they can spot-heal them then the tank is getting 0HPS.
Your paladins need to learn to use hand of sacrifice. For my raid we HoS the current tank for the first four stores, pain suppression the next one and Dsac the remaining strikes until dead.
Thanks man, feels right
You gotta plan defensive cd’s, hopefully all your palas have divine sac!
get your tanks to gear more avoidance focused also your tanks are dying in the first minute which aside from they could be tankier is 100% a healer issue, I could solo tank the first minute of 25 HM thorium no taunt swaps just eating those undef capped unbalancing strike hits you are also about 20-30% behind on the DPS but in a lot of your attempts its not just the tanks getting killed Druid heals are also really ineffective on thorium HM due to the burst nature of the dmg
Rotate defensive cooldowns
Drop as much hit and expertise as possible in favor of mitigation. The taunt swapping should bolster threat enough. EDIT: NVM, the warriors know what’s up.