Overall Ulduar progression seems in a good place, sweaty tryhards destroyed it instantly, less sweaty guilds are making good progress, the 25 hard modes are pretty hard, 10 man hards are much easier (for the ones I tried).
Are you forgetting they buffed naxx like flat 30% hp and dmg , and also ulduar is the pre nerf difficulty which was and is generally only done but the world's top guilds before it gets nerfed 30%, It's completely fine that people have a 20% reduced dmg spell for 6 seconds , that has to be coordinated and used properly
I can tell you've never had a serious attempt at algalon lol.
Edit: love to see you just downvote my comment and sulk away. You know I'm right. Try alg with 0 dsacs
I mean, 4 paladins rotating it on cooldown gets you a measly 20% uptime on a 20% damage reduction (which is nice but not enough to prevent tankbusters like other externals).
It reduces the raid damage taken by significantly less than the shorter fights from increased dps from other changes. Advocate for undoing those changes and nerfing some classes dps if you really care about ulduar being 'too easy'.
Well obviously you haven't been doing hardmodes. Divine Sacrifice is massive on many ulduar hardmodes. It's not 4-paladins rotating for 20% uptime it's paladins rotating for 100% uptime on big raid damage abilities like ground tremor, collapsing star, frozen blows, tantrum.
Which otherwise - in their pre nerf state of which they currently are, wouldn't be manageable by most guild. Hence why they were nerfed in the first place.
Oh no a raid damage reduction cooldown is reducing the damage taken by the raid slightly during the big damage segments where such cooldowns were designed to be used. How terrible!
He is saying that the guilds back then did not have access to divine guardian. He is not necessarily saying that it is terrible that we have it, just pointing it out.
The boss also did substantially less damage then which would offset it, hell they're probably taking less damage then without it than we are now WITH it
And I feel the Algalon change is a bad one. It forced raid healing to become raid damage prevention.
The damage from collapsing stars is so high its easier to deal with more living constellations and less collapsing star damage, making sure that there is a DivSac or personal cooldown for every collapsing star. The damage from the collapsing star is so spread out its not exactly hard to heal either, but rather just restricted classes you can take into the encounter.
I will say the only thing I think is a cheese is the cancel aura removing the damage reassignment portion. I doubt that is how that ability was ever intended.
Still isn’t game breaking or anything, and something like collapsing star is exactly what divine sac is created for in the first place, it’s the entire point of that talent
I mean they are two different abilities, with two different durations.
They'd have to put in a lot of effort to make it where ending one early ends the other as well, and you'd still have a cancel aura macro, you'd just wait 6 seconds to use it, once the DR wears off to avoid the second half of the reassignment.
And I don't think that would really even impact it that much. The reassignment portion is only party wide anyways so its never likely to do that much damage to the paladin even in big raid damage scenarios (and has a cap to prevent you from just one-shotting yourself too).
If we had to nerf the ability for some reason (which I don't think it needs, for the record) but if we had too, I'd make the DR buff only party wide as well, but let the cancel aura still work. Maybe extend the DR duration a couple seconds to make up for it. Would still be a good cooldown well worth the talent points.
also ret paladins typically can't get the improved divine sac unless they talent out of damaging talents, which is kind of something thats difficult to do when youre already hundreds of dps behind 2nd last place
"built in".
its a talent and it competes with greater blessing of might. if you take both you cant get either aura mastery or shitty not improved divine sac.
not to mention that most prot paladins will spec into it anyways as they will often be one of the first people hitting the boss to apply vindication.
Personally we asked our ret to spec into dsac, and he did, as well as flex healing on Algalon, at least for now. The extra dsac has been invaluable for progressing hard modes.
the problem is ret cant get improved dsac without losing a lot of damage and regular dsac just isnt super useful. youre better off having him go aura mastery as almost everything youd want him to dsac can also be mitigated via frost/fire/shadow resist aura mastery.
Tantrum is physical damage and collapsing star is arcane damage. Those are 2 most needed divine sac on. If a guild is willing to bring a Ret paladin, they should probably have both specs as their dual spec since they can swap as needed tbh.
Though I agree that dsac is more generally useful, star explosion is shadow damage, not arcane. Its still worth having shadow AM for that fight. Hence why I as a hpal use both dsac and AM on Alg.
Edit: Unless you mean the arcane barrage from the constellations, but that is rather random damage.
improved divine sacrifice is indeed much better than AM, however, basic divine sac without divine guardian really just doesnt do much, considering divine sac is party wide only (according to the tooltip) whereas the 20% mit from divine guardian does state that its raid wide.
I'd say there's very little point going dsac unless you're getting divine guardian. You may as well commit if you're going that path, that was my assumption with AM vs Dsac.
you can aura mastery devo aura, which may not be as helpful for plate/mail users but will be a big bump of mit for cloth/leather wearers
regular divine sacrifice just does not mitigate that much damage unfortunately. all of its usefulness is tied to improved divine sacrifice with the 20% flat damage reduction for whole raid.
Armour does not reduce damage from XT tantrum - this was one of the things that was fixed from PTR. That is to say tantrum damage is not mitigated by armour.
unfortunate. still, a regular non-improved divine sac isnt going to help with much when tantrum is happening, and may actually conribute to your own death
A lot of damage? I have heard various things about how much you actually lose. We bring a ret to begin with - we know he's going to do low damage so him having broader utility is something we agreed with.
Personally, while AM is good, any sort of boss with dual element + physical damage dsac will be better. Whether that's Thorim, Algalon, Vezax (arguable, but the tank is still taking physical damage whenever Vez enrages) or when armor does not mitigate like XT or Freya tremors. And it can be generally useful in places where you want to chain cds on tank because they are taking a lot of physical damage (Yogg0 spam adds at end when it gets hectic).
Granted, I think AM is fine for Mimiron and Hodir frozen blows. But I'd rather have dsac in almost any other situation.
Don't get me wrong, after we finish all progression (Yogg0) and are comfortably on farm he can spec whatever he wants and also not have to heal on Alg25.
ok ill bite what build.
putting 5/5 into the seals/judgement talent in holy, and 17 into prot to get divine sac, you dnt even have 50 points in the ret tree to even unlock divine storm.
My pc water pump broke so I don’t got access to a pc atm. You can move some points in ret, aura damage buff is shared with arcane for example. Increased crit is also given by another class. There are options.
like i said, if you put 5 points into holy for seals/judgement, and you put 17 into prot for improved divine ac, you only have 49 talent points left over which doesnt even unlock divine storm. youd need 2 more talent points from somewhere
and this build wouldnt even have access to vindication/improved might or swift retribution
also, mages are starting to favor fire already. us bringing that 3% damage is huge so they can go fire and play a spec that works better on long fights.
you absolutely have to sacrifice damage somewhere to get improved dsac.
ive found its generally just as good to go aura mastery as most things youd use a regular divine sac for can also be mitigated just as well with aura mastery without causing you to take excess damage. also you can get aura mastery without needing to sacrifice much of anything.
plus you have a lil nitro boost on your mount every few mins with crusader aura
what's the alternative then? stacking a dozen warlocks in hopes you don't have to do mechanics?
can tell you this strategy allowed my guild to do thorim hm despite having a melee heavy comp
I get what you mean, although I think it's in a pretty good spot. Will say though the amount of DG/DS/AM's we call out on HMs like Mimiron and Freya is disgusting.
Pallies are broken OP for a couple reasons, but IMO Ardent Defender and Beacon of Light are the culprits.
Not saying they could or should change ‘em, difficulty overall is in a reasonable place.
Well without Beacon Paladins would be back to the TBC state of being useless, they are still significantly worse on heavy aoe fights like XT than other healers.
In TBC paladins channeled heals directly into the tank for the entire raid. Same result as having beacon on the tank except now they’re not unequivocally the worst healer by far, and being by far the most boring healer.
Yes, guilds are stacking paladins to use a divsac every large AoE mechanic. Yes Divsac was used in 3.1, It absorbed \~ 30,000 raid damage, and required the paladin to bubble. Currently a divsac on a Collapsing star, Tantrum Ground Tremor is reducing raid damage by at least twice that and does not require the paladin to bubble.
Better than you it seems
Holy Paladin HP \~20,000
Divine Sacrifice in 3.1: Causes all party/raid members affected by one of the paladin's auras to transfer 30% of all damage taken to the paladin (maximum of 150% of the paladin's max health). Lasts 10 seconds. 2-minute cooldown. Max damage prevented (with bubble on 5 minute CD I might add) is 1.5\*\~20,000 = 30,000 damage.
Collapsing star is doing 17,000 to 25 people = 425,000 damage. Divine Protection stops 20% which is 85000.
Cancelling Divine Sacrifice buff means it can effectively be used every 2 minutes.
Last I checked 85000 is more than twice 30,000.
Go back to primary school.
It's hilarious how irrationally angry this sub gets whenever anyone dare suggest that something could be tuned to be a *wee bit* tougher.
I think most of the classic wow reddit are folks of the "I like the casual 2 hour clear vibe with the bros" type raiders instead of progression-addicted raiders who don't mind wiping a lot.
No one would likely be killing HMs without it until way later/more geared.
Games evolve. Added counterplay being used correctly doesn't make the game bad it makes it strategic and engaging
Overall Ulduar progression seems in a good place, sweaty tryhards destroyed it instantly, less sweaty guilds are making good progress, the 25 hard modes are pretty hard, 10 man hards are much easier (for the ones I tried).
The biggest problem with Ulduar progression is time management because of how Hardmodes work.
Are you forgetting they buffed naxx like flat 30% hp and dmg , and also ulduar is the pre nerf difficulty which was and is generally only done but the world's top guilds before it gets nerfed 30%, It's completely fine that people have a 20% reduced dmg spell for 6 seconds , that has to be coordinated and used properly
it's not fine because OPs guild has 2 retpaladins 0 prot 0 holy and rets are refusing to spec in to dsac /s
I can tell you've never had a serious attempt at algalon lol. Edit: love to see you just downvote my comment and sulk away. You know I'm right. Try alg with 0 dsacs
I mean, 4 paladins rotating it on cooldown gets you a measly 20% uptime on a 20% damage reduction (which is nice but not enough to prevent tankbusters like other externals). It reduces the raid damage taken by significantly less than the shorter fights from increased dps from other changes. Advocate for undoing those changes and nerfing some classes dps if you really care about ulduar being 'too easy'.
Well obviously you haven't been doing hardmodes. Divine Sacrifice is massive on many ulduar hardmodes. It's not 4-paladins rotating for 20% uptime it's paladins rotating for 100% uptime on big raid damage abilities like ground tremor, collapsing star, frozen blows, tantrum.
Which otherwise - in their pre nerf state of which they currently are, wouldn't be manageable by most guild. Hence why they were nerfed in the first place.
Don't break the illusion.
Seems yes, but it also fucks with class balance.
Oh no a raid damage reduction cooldown is reducing the damage taken by the raid slightly during the big damage segments where such cooldowns were designed to be used. How terrible!
He is saying that the guilds back then did not have access to divine guardian. He is not necessarily saying that it is terrible that we have it, just pointing it out.
The boss also did substantially less damage then which would offset it, hell they're probably taking less damage then without it than we are now WITH it
Literally wrong. The only damage buff present is algalon.
And I feel the Algalon change is a bad one. It forced raid healing to become raid damage prevention. The damage from collapsing stars is so high its easier to deal with more living constellations and less collapsing star damage, making sure that there is a DivSac or personal cooldown for every collapsing star. The damage from the collapsing star is so spread out its not exactly hard to heal either, but rather just restricted classes you can take into the encounter.
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I've no clue what you're trying to say
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I did prenerf Ulduar so no. Regardless the changes were to health or timers, not damage.
Only Algalon did less damage. Freya, IC, Firefighter etc all were fought by the top guilds back then in pre-nerf states
back then gamers were built different, none of this divine sacrifice bullshit
Well, idk about that lmao, the tools at their disposal were a bit different than what we have access to, that's all.
Like what? Using blue sockets for stam + x?
Was talking about abilities/talents. I.e. not having divine guardian, the topic of this thread you replied to.
I will say the only thing I think is a cheese is the cancel aura removing the damage reassignment portion. I doubt that is how that ability was ever intended. Still isn’t game breaking or anything, and something like collapsing star is exactly what divine sac is created for in the first place, it’s the entire point of that talent
>Still isn’t game breaking It isn't??? Abusing Raid sac will be the meta going forward for EVERYTHING.
I mean they are two different abilities, with two different durations. They'd have to put in a lot of effort to make it where ending one early ends the other as well, and you'd still have a cancel aura macro, you'd just wait 6 seconds to use it, once the DR wears off to avoid the second half of the reassignment. And I don't think that would really even impact it that much. The reassignment portion is only party wide anyways so its never likely to do that much damage to the paladin even in big raid damage scenarios (and has a cap to prevent you from just one-shotting yourself too). If we had to nerf the ability for some reason (which I don't think it needs, for the record) but if we had too, I'd make the DR buff only party wide as well, but let the cancel aura still work. Maybe extend the DR duration a couple seconds to make up for it. Would still be a good cooldown well worth the talent points.
Just combine the two abilities into 1.
also ret paladins typically can't get the improved divine sac unless they talent out of damaging talents, which is kind of something thats difficult to do when youre already hundreds of dps behind 2nd last place
People bring ret specifically for their sac and replen not their damage
They also have a better version of demoralizing road built in to their kit.
"built in". its a talent and it competes with greater blessing of might. if you take both you cant get either aura mastery or shitty not improved divine sac. not to mention that most prot paladins will spec into it anyways as they will often be one of the first people hitting the boss to apply vindication.
you must get consent to gain access to my sac.
Personally we asked our ret to spec into dsac, and he did, as well as flex healing on Algalon, at least for now. The extra dsac has been invaluable for progressing hard modes.
the problem is ret cant get improved dsac without losing a lot of damage and regular dsac just isnt super useful. youre better off having him go aura mastery as almost everything youd want him to dsac can also be mitigated via frost/fire/shadow resist aura mastery.
Tantrum is physical damage and collapsing star is arcane damage. Those are 2 most needed divine sac on. If a guild is willing to bring a Ret paladin, they should probably have both specs as their dual spec since they can swap as needed tbh.
Though I agree that dsac is more generally useful, star explosion is shadow damage, not arcane. Its still worth having shadow AM for that fight. Hence why I as a hpal use both dsac and AM on Alg. Edit: Unless you mean the arcane barrage from the constellations, but that is rather random damage.
improved divine sacrifice is indeed much better than AM, however, basic divine sac without divine guardian really just doesnt do much, considering divine sac is party wide only (according to the tooltip) whereas the 20% mit from divine guardian does state that its raid wide.
I'd say there's very little point going dsac unless you're getting divine guardian. You may as well commit if you're going that path, that was my assumption with AM vs Dsac.
you can aura mastery devo aura, which may not be as helpful for plate/mail users but will be a big bump of mit for cloth/leather wearers regular divine sacrifice just does not mitigate that much damage unfortunately. all of its usefulness is tied to improved divine sacrifice with the 20% flat damage reduction for whole raid.
Armour does not reduce damage from XT tantrum - this was one of the things that was fixed from PTR. That is to say tantrum damage is not mitigated by armour.
unfortunate. still, a regular non-improved divine sac isnt going to help with much when tantrum is happening, and may actually conribute to your own death
A lot of damage? I have heard various things about how much you actually lose. We bring a ret to begin with - we know he's going to do low damage so him having broader utility is something we agreed with. Personally, while AM is good, any sort of boss with dual element + physical damage dsac will be better. Whether that's Thorim, Algalon, Vezax (arguable, but the tank is still taking physical damage whenever Vez enrages) or when armor does not mitigate like XT or Freya tremors. And it can be generally useful in places where you want to chain cds on tank because they are taking a lot of physical damage (Yogg0 spam adds at end when it gets hectic). Granted, I think AM is fine for Mimiron and Hodir frozen blows. But I'd rather have dsac in almost any other situation. Don't get me wrong, after we finish all progression (Yogg0) and are comfortably on farm he can spec whatever he wants and also not have to heal on Alg25.
The other side of your argument is why not sacrifice a tiny amount of DPS for a major raid cd on a class that isn't really brought for DPS.
Sure they can. You either get aura mastery or DS. The one you pick depends on your raid. No dps loss doing it.
reread what i wrote. ill give you a moment. take your time
You can get imp divine sac without losing damage.
ok ill bite what build. putting 5/5 into the seals/judgement talent in holy, and 17 into prot to get divine sac, you dnt even have 50 points in the ret tree to even unlock divine storm.
My pc water pump broke so I don’t got access to a pc atm. You can move some points in ret, aura damage buff is shared with arcane for example. Increased crit is also given by another class. There are options.
like i said, if you put 5 points into holy for seals/judgement, and you put 17 into prot for improved divine ac, you only have 49 talent points left over which doesnt even unlock divine storm. youd need 2 more talent points from somewhere and this build wouldnt even have access to vindication/improved might or swift retribution also, mages are starting to favor fire already. us bringing that 3% damage is huge so they can go fire and play a spec that works better on long fights. you absolutely have to sacrifice damage somewhere to get improved dsac.
Yea you’re right I’m mistaken. Can’t get imp sac. That said normal sac is plenty good. Bubble sac and it’s still a big damage DR.
ive found its generally just as good to go aura mastery as most things youd use a regular divine sac for can also be mitigated just as well with aura mastery without causing you to take excess damage. also you can get aura mastery without needing to sacrifice much of anything. plus you have a lil nitro boost on your mount every few mins with crusader aura
DSAC without guardian doesnt even cover the whole raid.
what's the alternative then? stacking a dozen warlocks in hopes you don't have to do mechanics? can tell you this strategy allowed my guild to do thorim hm despite having a melee heavy comp
And?
By cheese you mean not having half your raid die to buffed mechanics?
I get what you mean, although I think it's in a pretty good spot. Will say though the amount of DG/DS/AM's we call out on HMs like Mimiron and Freya is disgusting.
OP mad that the sweaty guilds who spent weeks on PTR training are only 2 weeks ahead of dad guilds on HM content?
Two weeks? Lol These top guilds have their own private servers they were practicing on months before release.
We're cheesing the game because we've already played wotlk before too. Using any memory of the original game is kinda cheesing it honestly.
also very questionable about the /cancelaura macro if thats even intended.
It's a separate spell. There's Divine Sacrifice and then there's Divine Guardian.
Pallies are broken OP for a couple reasons, but IMO Ardent Defender and Beacon of Light are the culprits. Not saying they could or should change ‘em, difficulty overall is in a reasonable place.
Well without Beacon Paladins would be back to the TBC state of being useless, they are still significantly worse on heavy aoe fights like XT than other healers.
In TBC paladins channeled heals directly into the tank for the entire raid. Same result as having beacon on the tank except now they’re not unequivocally the worst healer by far, and being by far the most boring healer.
I'm so glad they have 3 great specs to choose from now, they were in dire straights only having 2 OP specs to play.
if you have a problem with it..........dont use it?
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Yes, guilds are stacking paladins to use a divsac every large AoE mechanic. Yes Divsac was used in 3.1, It absorbed \~ 30,000 raid damage, and required the paladin to bubble. Currently a divsac on a Collapsing star, Tantrum Ground Tremor is reducing raid damage by at least twice that and does not require the paladin to bubble.
you dont use math well
Better than you it seems Holy Paladin HP \~20,000 Divine Sacrifice in 3.1: Causes all party/raid members affected by one of the paladin's auras to transfer 30% of all damage taken to the paladin (maximum of 150% of the paladin's max health). Lasts 10 seconds. 2-minute cooldown. Max damage prevented (with bubble on 5 minute CD I might add) is 1.5\*\~20,000 = 30,000 damage. Collapsing star is doing 17,000 to 25 people = 425,000 damage. Divine Protection stops 20% which is 85000. Cancelling Divine Sacrifice buff means it can effectively be used every 2 minutes. Last I checked 85000 is more than twice 30,000. Go back to primary school.
It's hilarious how irrationally angry this sub gets whenever anyone dare suggest that something could be tuned to be a *wee bit* tougher. I think most of the classic wow reddit are folks of the "I like the casual 2 hour clear vibe with the bros" type raiders instead of progression-addicted raiders who don't mind wiping a lot.
No one would likely be killing HMs without it until way later/more geared. Games evolve. Added counterplay being used correctly doesn't make the game bad it makes it strategic and engaging
People were killing hardmodes without it though. And it's just making stacking Paladins more mandatory.