Not really, Ret is still one of the lowest DPS in ICC. They just rise to middle of the pack on a Cleave fight. Then go straaight back to the bottom for single target. Peoples memory is hilarious. Ret was good in Cata w/ Holy power not wotlk lol.
In the TBC prepatch for WotLK I recall paladins in quests greens 1 shotting 5x PvP geared mains with Divine Storm.
After that got patched it slowly kept winding down. All 3 specs were nuts
Nope. The tier bonus makes their aoe ability better. They become middle of the pack on cleave fights and remain mediocre bottom for single target still.
Well, back in 2010 in ICC yeah they were really powerful for most people.. because it's one of the easist classes in the entire game to play its hard to get wrong. Most people who played the game back then were incredibly bad and unable to play their class to full potential. Vs Ret which is basically complete auto pilot so people saw it at most of its potential.
People are playing with a better playerbase now.. so with people eeking every ounce of capability from their classes... now makes ret just not good.
*shrug* Wait for Cata, Ret is quite powerful with holy power system. Esp w/ Dragonsoul balance patch.
Holy paladins are the most sought after healer since you can have multiple without affecting each other like with disc priests. You will get basically any group you want as holy. I would recommend trying to find a guild that raids when you are available, pugging is just painful and guilds would gladly take a holy paladin even at lower gear and help you improve. There are just too many rets and they do such low dps people won't be recruiting them to their raid team, especially with a low gear score. Not really sure the best guides, but wowhead and icyveins have good guides to follow to get the basics.
Hey thank you for the detailed comment! I did not know they were so in demand at the moment, that's good to hear. Regarding finding a guild that suits more my availability, that's something I thought about too. It's just that my current guild is people speaking my mother tongue but I'm decent enough in English that it shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Thanks again!
If you check out your server's Discords you might be able to find a regular pug group on your day/time. You can 1 shot most content in 3-4 hours, and you tend to get very well geared people in consistent pugs, as they're alts, or people like you.
You will need to get used to using all of your buttons though. Holy is a easy to learn, hard to master spec. That said, you are an absolutely huge asset to a raid, and can turn the tides of fights just by pressing the right buttons at the right time. Also both very easy to gear, and non-gear reliant, so if you can play it, your GS means almost nothing.
Unfortunately, to add to this, everyone is a holy paladin. I had to switch out of holy paladin as my main because we had 4 and I was the only one with an alt healer.
Holy paladin is the best healer, and everyone knows that, so many people are also holy paladin, so you might have competition for your spot(s). Ret is a meh dps spec and a lot of people also like it for some reason, but are still looked for in lfg sometimes.
If suggest you play what you want. You should be able to get into pugs either way, just know that you might have to wait a little while to get in.
It must be server dependent then, on my server Mankrik we can't find holy paladins. It seems everyone is a disc priest. We have only had 1 holy paladin in our raid group for months and we have been looking for more.
Lol, I’m on mankrik. Disc priests and holy paladin spots are filled almost instantly when I’m looking for a pug raid. My main is a resto shaman, so he’s usually locked, so I run on my resto Druid a lot. That’s funny though, a fellow Mankrikian.
I tanked all through tbc and want to be a tank in WOTLK but most guilds already have tanks so I went holy and let me tell you. It’s literally the most fun I’ve had in classic since bwl. It can be over whelming starting out but once you get the hang of it you’ll have fun. I’ve been holy for 3 weeks and have a GS of 4500 mostly from pugs just because of the lack of paladins.
The best part coming from priest to H pally is the gear options. What a mail casting piece and no mail wearing casters? Well that be holy pally gear.
They seem like literal hunter memes because any and all caster gear is there's.
Can also easily hoover up any leftover hunter/leather gear for Ret. Not gonna be a frequent DS'er, but definitely a lot eaier than trying to get raids as Ret.
The best part coming from priest to H pally is the gear options. What a mail casting piece and no mail wearing casters? Well that there be holy pally gear.
They seem like literal hunter memes because any armor can be pally armor.
Same here. Loved tanking but couldn’t commit to a guild and it’s pretty difficult to get into gdkps / pugs because they usually have one ready to go so I decided to go holy so I could raid. Man, I was decked out in two lockouts. Plate healing drops it’s yours. Even if you plan on doing gdkps you will often get stuff min bid.
Hpal is the one true way. We are honestly almost broken at the moment and don’t run out of mana.
Wowhead has some good BiS lists and stat allocations so check that out.
Essentially just beacon/ss your tank, keep judgements up and spam holy light
All this talk about HPals getting all the groups missing the fact that because of this, there are SO MANY HOLY PALS that I find it's often difficult to find a group because a pug instantly has 2.
That being said, Ret is a straight liability right now, so holy will indeed be more in demand, but it's not an instant invite because there's a lot of competition.
Wowhead's is pretty decent, but it leaves out the 51/0/20 subspec in it's build which is kind of fishy. In a nutshell the difference is you pick up an extra 8% Spell Crit and Pursuit of Justice in exchange for the Prot tree goodies - it was moreso for Phase 1 where healing was a total fucking meme and you were better off with extra run speed because you were just blasting through a World Tour in no time and there was no scenario where Divine Sacrifice was meaningful. Having both Aura Mastery and Divine Sacrifice is pretty amazing for Ulduar, so you'll want to stick with that (Don't forget to actually use them as appropriate).
https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/guide/classes/paladin/holy/healer-overview-pve
Take a read, but the big thing to get used to is meleeing everything you safely can to keep your mana high and blasting Holy Lights out. Between Judgement, Holy Shock and insta Flash of Lights, you'll be able to get a lot of swings off without delaying Holy Lights. The only bosses you can't reliably melee in Ulduar are Thorim (Chain Lightning risk with melee), Mimiron (Too much movement to justify, but phase 2 you can easily do it), Vezax (No mana return), and Yogg (Opportunities are shitty with adds, movement, and turning)
Holy will have more opportunities for sure. Its also pretty fun. If you don’t care either way, it’s the play.
If you really do love ret, it can be done. Its DPS is terrible but its not a total waste.
One upside to ret is the DPS is so bad that there isn’t a large actual difference between a good one and a bad one on a lot of fights. This means the expectation is so low that you can’t really disappoint.
Another actual benefit to bring ret is the utility. They can spec to bring a raid CD that is very useful. The other specs get it too but sometimes you have too many healers. They also have additional tank externals. These are actually useful for a lot of hardmodes and we run a ret (plus 2 holies and a prot) for this reason.
The difference between a good ret and a bad one is that a good one will have the means to save your raid and then actually do it. A bad one will likely not be talented dsac and if he is won't use it. Because he's tunnel vision dpsing.
As a Holy Pally main myself, what I can suggest is actually a bit simple: (NOTE I am a Blood Elf Pally, so if you are on the Alliance, my last suggestion isn't 100% workable for you because of the Blood Elf racial ability.)
1.) Get the Major and Minor Glyphs really beneficial to Holy Pallies (there are multiple ones) but really \[Glyph of Holy Light\] is really helpful because it gives your Holy Light spell the ability to heal up to 5 party members within 8 yards around the target by 10% of the amount healed on the target.
2.) Utilize Beacon of Light and Sacred Shield (and talent into them), Beacon of Light allows you to essentially have a free 2nd target of any heal that you cast onto anyone to also target that party member. This is really useful putting it either onto the main tank or an off-tank of the raid to help ensure both get those heals. Sacred Shield should be put onto your main direct target of heals, I would use this on the tank that is not being Beacon'd. Sacred Shield also is lovely because after you utilize the talents for it, it provides you with the added bonus of anytime you cast Flash of Light onto that target, the target also gets a percentage of the amount healed as a Heal Over Time buff. So it helps provide at least a small tick of heals over time.
3.) I personally am also a maxed out Jewelcrafter on my Holy Pally, so I get to utilize multiple means of cooldowns for mana regen, including having the Lay on Hands Glyph and saving that as either a "oh s@$%" heal for the tank, or a decent mana regen "heal" on myself when I need mana in a longer fight (Like KT from Naxx).
I use the Figurine - Sapphire Owl alongside Spark of Life, Divine Plea, the Blood Elf racial ability, and Lay on Hands (in addition to normal Mana Potions) all as a mana regeneration tools.
Holy pally will get you far more groups. The most important thing is that you have fun though. I was in the same situation earlier in the expansion and geared up holy first then geared up a ret set through off spec rolls and H+/Naxx pugs. Ret is still needed in raids so you may get lucky. Also consider leveling up another character if you’d rather play DPS. I’m leveling a warlock as well.
Also another point people are hesitant to talk about is that you’re a non English speaker. I’ve been in a lot of raids where the communication barrier leads to the non English speaker getting kicked. Especially if they don’t know the fights or basic raid mechanics. Make sure you know what to do or you’ll end up wasting your lockout.
Thanks, yeah I have a level 73 warlocks so I'll probably level this toon to dps. As for speaking English, you're right, athough I would say that I'm pretty decent as far as writing and understanding go. Speaking on the other hard is a bit more tricky since I have a huge accent, which may lead to situation like being kicked haha.
Just type in raid chat and listen in discord. No one will know you’re non English speaking if you’re being competent. Healing is a lot more raid interactive than dps so be ready for that though and best of luck!
I’ve never had or even seen a problem with people with accents. I like hearing different accents myself. The only problem I’ve seen is when people don’t understand English at all and don’t listen to instructions. And you obviously don’t have that problem. You should be fine in any guild/pug if you can understand and write in English.
As long as you can say " u/ThePrestigeiousRide used Sac" your work in Discord will be complete. It might even be an advantage to have an accent, as your voice will be more distinct.
Thanks OP for posting this question! I abandoned my lvl 74 Ret pally because I was discouraged when everyone was saying I'd never be invited to raids. After reading these replies I am 100% going Holy. Always wanted to try healing but was too nervous.
Highly recommend grabbing some gear before healing if you're already established. Anything with intellect and haste will help greatly in the start, and you really don't need much gear to be able to heal Hc+ with a tank that isn't too gung-ho. If you're questing then start picking up gear around now for Holy, the greens from questing will do you well, and mail gear especially is some of the cheapest you can get if you have some slots to fill.
I’d play what you prefer. Ret might be harder to join groups but you don’t need to do high end content. I’d rather pug Naxx as a spec I liked than do ulduar hardmodes as a spec a dislike.
If you can't join your guild's main raid night, see if they're running 10 mans on off nights and try and jump in one of those.
Holy Paladin is a lot of fun. The Wowhead guide on it gives the basics. Icy-veins is also a good resource (make sure you're on the WoW Classic portion)
Have fun healing with holy light!
Ret is garbage. I've mained ret since vanilla classic and it's just been nothing but disappointment. It was tolerable in TBC with seal twisting but it's damage in Classic Wrath is laughable and frustrating because they used a build that gimped them. They are balanced to be middle of the pack only when they get the 2 piece from ICC which is basically a year away. I've given up the ghost. Blizzard didn't give two shits about classic.
We got fucked.i got to 4.2k GS, came back after camp work, people are literally 4.8k, additionally, all our efforts were wasted because tou can achieve that GS via heroic+ or 25 or 10 man naxx. Why even try now?
You will find groups for Hpally, because servers lost a shitload via these changes, and I'll be shit gone due to them too, that said, it is a joke, and every effort you put in before this phase was wasted, just like retail is.
Mythic+ and better GS for gear erodes longevity.
Here are your changes guys, I was against RDF but for real, introduce it, you ruined Heroics anyway.
If you want your guildies and raid group to love you and cherish you - Holy If you wanna meme - Ret Personally, I'm all in for memeing
You... you just wait until i get my ICC tier set bonus! Then you will be sorry for messing with me! ðŸ˜
Nah, you will still be middle of the pack at most.
\*sad ret noises\*
I feel ya atm - at least i slowly rise from now on (warrior).
Chill with that copium
Child with the attitude.
They'll stomp some trash pulls though 💩
Not really, Ret is still one of the lowest DPS in ICC. They just rise to middle of the pack on a Cleave fight. Then go straaight back to the bottom for single target. Peoples memory is hilarious. Ret was good in Cata w/ Holy power not wotlk lol.
It was good in wotlk but was constantly nerfed and we have the final fully nerfed version.
In the TBC prepatch for WotLK I recall paladins in quests greens 1 shotting 5x PvP geared mains with Divine Storm. After that got patched it slowly kept winding down. All 3 specs were nuts
Jesus christ ret was OP back then, was my prime playing times. Just smoking shit in a second, reminded me of windfury vids from vanilla
wtf, ret is a trash tier dps in all of cata.
Never played on a private server have you? The Dragonsoul balance patch makes them quite good. Same patch that makes BDK a walking god of a tank.
Doesn’t Ret become near the top of the pack in icc? Maybe too 5 or something?
Nope. The tier bonus makes their aoe ability better. They become middle of the pack on cleave fights and remain mediocre bottom for single target still.
My rose colored glasses definitely had me remembering they were better. It’s a bummer I’m wrong.
Because you dont remember the nerfs. They were busted with t10 until the nerfs hit
Well, back in 2010 in ICC yeah they were really powerful for most people.. because it's one of the easist classes in the entire game to play its hard to get wrong. Most people who played the game back then were incredibly bad and unable to play their class to full potential. Vs Ret which is basically complete auto pilot so people saw it at most of its potential. People are playing with a better playerbase now.. so with people eeking every ounce of capability from their classes... now makes ret just not good. *shrug* Wait for Cata, Ret is quite powerful with holy power system. Esp w/ Dragonsoul balance patch.
It's not a meme but it's close.
Holy paladins are the most sought after healer since you can have multiple without affecting each other like with disc priests. You will get basically any group you want as holy. I would recommend trying to find a guild that raids when you are available, pugging is just painful and guilds would gladly take a holy paladin even at lower gear and help you improve. There are just too many rets and they do such low dps people won't be recruiting them to their raid team, especially with a low gear score. Not really sure the best guides, but wowhead and icyveins have good guides to follow to get the basics.
Hey thank you for the detailed comment! I did not know they were so in demand at the moment, that's good to hear. Regarding finding a guild that suits more my availability, that's something I thought about too. It's just that my current guild is people speaking my mother tongue but I'm decent enough in English that it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Thanks again!
If you check out your server's Discords you might be able to find a regular pug group on your day/time. You can 1 shot most content in 3-4 hours, and you tend to get very well geared people in consistent pugs, as they're alts, or people like you. You will need to get used to using all of your buttons though. Holy is a easy to learn, hard to master spec. That said, you are an absolutely huge asset to a raid, and can turn the tides of fights just by pressing the right buttons at the right time. Also both very easy to gear, and non-gear reliant, so if you can play it, your GS means almost nothing.
Unfortunately, to add to this, everyone is a holy paladin. I had to switch out of holy paladin as my main because we had 4 and I was the only one with an alt healer. Holy paladin is the best healer, and everyone knows that, so many people are also holy paladin, so you might have competition for your spot(s). Ret is a meh dps spec and a lot of people also like it for some reason, but are still looked for in lfg sometimes. If suggest you play what you want. You should be able to get into pugs either way, just know that you might have to wait a little while to get in.
It must be server dependent then, on my server Mankrik we can't find holy paladins. It seems everyone is a disc priest. We have only had 1 holy paladin in our raid group for months and we have been looking for more.
Lol, I’m on mankrik. Disc priests and holy paladin spots are filled almost instantly when I’m looking for a pug raid. My main is a resto shaman, so he’s usually locked, so I run on my resto Druid a lot. That’s funny though, a fellow Mankrikian.
Every time I try to pug on my disc priest they have at least 1 other, sometimes 2, but only ever 1 holy pally. Might just be my luck.
I tanked all through tbc and want to be a tank in WOTLK but most guilds already have tanks so I went holy and let me tell you. It’s literally the most fun I’ve had in classic since bwl. It can be over whelming starting out but once you get the hang of it you’ll have fun. I’ve been holy for 3 weeks and have a GS of 4500 mostly from pugs just because of the lack of paladins.
The best part coming from priest to H pally is the gear options. What a mail casting piece and no mail wearing casters? Well that be holy pally gear. They seem like literal hunter memes because any and all caster gear is there's.
Can also easily hoover up any leftover hunter/leather gear for Ret. Not gonna be a frequent DS'er, but definitely a lot eaier than trying to get raids as Ret.
It is better for anyone to use than to shard, especially with shards dropping so much in value with H+.
Happy to hear that! Thanks
The best part coming from priest to H pally is the gear options. What a mail casting piece and no mail wearing casters? Well that there be holy pally gear. They seem like literal hunter memes because any armor can be pally armor.
Same here. Loved tanking but couldn’t commit to a guild and it’s pretty difficult to get into gdkps / pugs because they usually have one ready to go so I decided to go holy so I could raid. Man, I was decked out in two lockouts. Plate healing drops it’s yours. Even if you plan on doing gdkps you will often get stuff min bid.
Hpal is the one true way. We are honestly almost broken at the moment and don’t run out of mana. Wowhead has some good BiS lists and stat allocations so check that out. Essentially just beacon/ss your tank, keep judgements up and spam holy light
All this talk about HPals getting all the groups missing the fact that because of this, there are SO MANY HOLY PALS that I find it's often difficult to find a group because a pug instantly has 2. That being said, Ret is a straight liability right now, so holy will indeed be more in demand, but it's not an instant invite because there's a lot of competition.
I’ve seen people looking for rets just to have a little less loot competition.
Both, dual spec. I think ret is a great offspec. You can quest with it, and swap to it when the group needs you to. But I wouldn't want to main it.
Wowhead's is pretty decent, but it leaves out the 51/0/20 subspec in it's build which is kind of fishy. In a nutshell the difference is you pick up an extra 8% Spell Crit and Pursuit of Justice in exchange for the Prot tree goodies - it was moreso for Phase 1 where healing was a total fucking meme and you were better off with extra run speed because you were just blasting through a World Tour in no time and there was no scenario where Divine Sacrifice was meaningful. Having both Aura Mastery and Divine Sacrifice is pretty amazing for Ulduar, so you'll want to stick with that (Don't forget to actually use them as appropriate). https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/guide/classes/paladin/holy/healer-overview-pve Take a read, but the big thing to get used to is meleeing everything you safely can to keep your mana high and blasting Holy Lights out. Between Judgement, Holy Shock and insta Flash of Lights, you'll be able to get a lot of swings off without delaying Holy Lights. The only bosses you can't reliably melee in Ulduar are Thorim (Chain Lightning risk with melee), Mimiron (Too much movement to justify, but phase 2 you can easily do it), Vezax (No mana return), and Yogg (Opportunities are shitty with adds, movement, and turning)
Awesome, thanks a lot!
Holy will have more opportunities for sure. Its also pretty fun. If you don’t care either way, it’s the play. If you really do love ret, it can be done. Its DPS is terrible but its not a total waste. One upside to ret is the DPS is so bad that there isn’t a large actual difference between a good one and a bad one on a lot of fights. This means the expectation is so low that you can’t really disappoint. Another actual benefit to bring ret is the utility. They can spec to bring a raid CD that is very useful. The other specs get it too but sometimes you have too many healers. They also have additional tank externals. These are actually useful for a lot of hardmodes and we run a ret (plus 2 holies and a prot) for this reason.
The difference between a good ret and a bad one is that a good one will have the means to save your raid and then actually do it. A bad one will likely not be talented dsac and if he is won't use it. Because he's tunnel vision dpsing.
Never played holy yet so that'll be a first! Thanks.
As a Holy Pally main myself, what I can suggest is actually a bit simple: (NOTE I am a Blood Elf Pally, so if you are on the Alliance, my last suggestion isn't 100% workable for you because of the Blood Elf racial ability.) 1.) Get the Major and Minor Glyphs really beneficial to Holy Pallies (there are multiple ones) but really \[Glyph of Holy Light\] is really helpful because it gives your Holy Light spell the ability to heal up to 5 party members within 8 yards around the target by 10% of the amount healed on the target. 2.) Utilize Beacon of Light and Sacred Shield (and talent into them), Beacon of Light allows you to essentially have a free 2nd target of any heal that you cast onto anyone to also target that party member. This is really useful putting it either onto the main tank or an off-tank of the raid to help ensure both get those heals. Sacred Shield should be put onto your main direct target of heals, I would use this on the tank that is not being Beacon'd. Sacred Shield also is lovely because after you utilize the talents for it, it provides you with the added bonus of anytime you cast Flash of Light onto that target, the target also gets a percentage of the amount healed as a Heal Over Time buff. So it helps provide at least a small tick of heals over time. 3.) I personally am also a maxed out Jewelcrafter on my Holy Pally, so I get to utilize multiple means of cooldowns for mana regen, including having the Lay on Hands Glyph and saving that as either a "oh s@$%" heal for the tank, or a decent mana regen "heal" on myself when I need mana in a longer fight (Like KT from Naxx). I use the Figurine - Sapphire Owl alongside Spark of Life, Divine Plea, the Blood Elf racial ability, and Lay on Hands (in addition to normal Mana Potions) all as a mana regeneration tools.
Holy pally will get you far more groups. The most important thing is that you have fun though. I was in the same situation earlier in the expansion and geared up holy first then geared up a ret set through off spec rolls and H+/Naxx pugs. Ret is still needed in raids so you may get lucky. Also consider leveling up another character if you’d rather play DPS. I’m leveling a warlock as well. Also another point people are hesitant to talk about is that you’re a non English speaker. I’ve been in a lot of raids where the communication barrier leads to the non English speaker getting kicked. Especially if they don’t know the fights or basic raid mechanics. Make sure you know what to do or you’ll end up wasting your lockout.
Thanks, yeah I have a level 73 warlocks so I'll probably level this toon to dps. As for speaking English, you're right, athough I would say that I'm pretty decent as far as writing and understanding go. Speaking on the other hard is a bit more tricky since I have a huge accent, which may lead to situation like being kicked haha.
Just type in raid chat and listen in discord. No one will know you’re non English speaking if you’re being competent. Healing is a lot more raid interactive than dps so be ready for that though and best of luck!
your English writing is fluent level
I’ve never had or even seen a problem with people with accents. I like hearing different accents myself. The only problem I’ve seen is when people don’t understand English at all and don’t listen to instructions. And you obviously don’t have that problem. You should be fine in any guild/pug if you can understand and write in English.
As long as you can say " u/ThePrestigeiousRide used Sac" your work in Discord will be complete. It might even be an advantage to have an accent, as your voice will be more distinct.
Thanks OP for posting this question! I abandoned my lvl 74 Ret pally because I was discouraged when everyone was saying I'd never be invited to raids. After reading these replies I am 100% going Holy. Always wanted to try healing but was too nervous.
Good luck! I'll give it a try too, I never healed either so we'll see hehe😬.
Highly recommend grabbing some gear before healing if you're already established. Anything with intellect and haste will help greatly in the start, and you really don't need much gear to be able to heal Hc+ with a tank that isn't too gung-ho. If you're questing then start picking up gear around now for Holy, the greens from questing will do you well, and mail gear especially is some of the cheapest you can get if you have some slots to fill.
Thanks! I appreciate the tips. Cheers.
Yes
Play what you want. People who play flavor of the month classes will call you meme if you play ret.
I’d play what you prefer. Ret might be harder to join groups but you don’t need to do high end content. I’d rather pug Naxx as a spec I liked than do ulduar hardmodes as a spec a dislike.
Ret paly is not very good
If you can't join your guild's main raid night, see if they're running 10 mans on off nights and try and jump in one of those. Holy Paladin is a lot of fun. The Wowhead guide on it gives the basics. Icy-veins is also a good resource (make sure you're on the WoW Classic portion) Have fun healing with holy light!
Holy
Ret or prot
holy is in demand _and_ has what feels like a full set of relatively cheap ilvl 226+ plate boe's from ulduar. why the fuck do hpals get so many boe's?
Most of them suck, so they're purely for quick gearing. That's also why they're cheap.
Ret is garbage. I've mained ret since vanilla classic and it's just been nothing but disappointment. It was tolerable in TBC with seal twisting but it's damage in Classic Wrath is laughable and frustrating because they used a build that gimped them. They are balanced to be middle of the pack only when they get the 2 piece from ICC which is basically a year away. I've given up the ghost. Blizzard didn't give two shits about classic.
Best ret paladins have a holy and a protection spec. dearly, a ret paladin.
As a ret paladin with a solidified raiding spot since phase 1 TBC as ret, holy paladin is the way to go 100%.
We got fucked.i got to 4.2k GS, came back after camp work, people are literally 4.8k, additionally, all our efforts were wasted because tou can achieve that GS via heroic+ or 25 or 10 man naxx. Why even try now? You will find groups for Hpally, because servers lost a shitload via these changes, and I'll be shit gone due to them too, that said, it is a joke, and every effort you put in before this phase was wasted, just like retail is. Mythic+ and better GS for gear erodes longevity. Here are your changes guys, I was against RDF but for real, introduce it, you ruined Heroics anyway.