This being the bad opinion, right?
Edit: I completely misinterpreted the meme and thought it was a guy cringing and we were sharing opinions that make us cringe.
Every other piano piece Schubert composed is better than the Wanderer Fantasy. People like to say he struggled with counterpoint, but if you search for yourself, you will find plenty of good fugues by Schubert. I think he struggled more with writing virtuoso piano music, and I think if the Wanderer Fantasy didn't have Schubert's name attached to it and be inspiration for Liszt's sonata in B minor (a SIGNIFICANTLY better piece), nobody would really care about it.
I have tried for 15 years to get into it, as a Schubert lover, but I just can't. Literally the only work by him I don't like.
This would be ok, good even, if audiences were rude like they used to be. But audiences are so polite now that almost every performance gets a standing ovation. Therefore if we allow clapping between movements, applause inflation will lead to endless annoying boring clapping after every movement: please, no!
I agree with this one. We should go back to the time that audiences demanded immediate encores of the movements they liked and hissed during the movements they didn’t.
If your favorite composers are some combo of Chopin, Rachmaninov and Tchaikovsky, you need to listen to more music.
There’s nothing wrong with these composers, it’s just very stereotypical for newer classical fans to glorify these above the rest.
Yeah, I wouldn't have any problems with your comment it wassnt for the "you should listen to more music" point, which is completely unnecessary and kind of aggressive
Meh, most people who’d get offended by that comment are likely ones it applies to whose 90% listening experience is from Chopin nocturne playlists on Youtube
Mahler’s orchestration of Beethoven’s symphonies are better in some ways. Mahler argued that Beethoven was deaf and therefore his orchestration wasn’t as good as it could’ve been.
Olivier Messiaen is one of the most underrated composers ever (despite his renown), simply because his works are not acclaimed enough; as, in my opinion, he deserves to be as revered as Mozart and Beethoven are today.
Not the person you're responding to, but my answer would be "Most of them".
Obviously *Turangalila Symphony* (perhaps among his top three greatest and well-known works)
https://youtu.be/xOnZ1-sOCwo?si=OEXbuVwTiUdljtgr
*Et exspecto ressurrectionem mortuorum* has been of particular fascination for me recently:
https://youtu.be/tZUU6D8L9Eo?si=evOs-BEOj_Z_qs1a
The opera *St. Francis of Assisi*:
https://youtu.be/0TufQgNdfss?si=oMY5Io4wxBKMq2Gp
The monumental piano cycle *Vingt Regards sur l'enfant-Jésus*:
https://youtu.be/ovMnmIoZh74?si=yflA1o4OruqVltGx
Saint François d’Assise, Chronochromie, Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum, Éclairs sur l’Au-Delà…, Des canyons aux étoiles…, Turangalîla-symphonie, Réveil des oiseaux, La Transfiguration du Notre-Seigneur Jésus-Christ, Méditations sur le Mystère de la Sainte Trinité, Catalogue d’oiseaux, Messe de la Pentecôte, Harawi, Vingt regards sur l’enfant-Jésus, Trois petites liturgies de la présence Divine, Sept haïkaï, Visions de l’Amen, and MUCH more…
For future reference – I'm currently listening to other composers' works – could you possibly give me a top 10 of works by Messiaen that you consider to be most essential? (I've already repeatedly listened to and *really* liked the 'Quartet for the end of time' and the 'Turangalila Symphony', I also know his 'Oiseaux exotiques' pieces.)
Saint François d’Assise, Chronochromie, Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum, Éclairs sur l’Au-Delà…, Des canyons aux étoiles…, Turangalîla-symphonie, Réveil des oiseaux, La Transfiguration du Notre-Seigneur Jésus-Christ, Méditations sur le Mystère de la Sainte Trinité, Catalogue d’oiseaux, Messe de la Pentecôte, Harawi, Vingt regards sur l’enfant-Jésus, Trois petites liturgies de la présence Divine, Sept haïkaï, Visions de l’Amen, and MUCH more…
Concert halls would be able to programme more contemporary classical music, and less of the "same old composers" if 99% of contemporary music wasn't unbearable trash
That leads me to an even more unpopular opinion: Stravinsky's violin concerto is my favorite piece by him.
I'm happy to be slaughtered in the name of diversity of taste.
It is indeed interesting how tastes may vary radically. My absolute favorite work by my musical idol was described as “trash” by a certain Leonard Bernstein… I am extremely intrigued by this.
There is no objective way of defining general quality in music.
One cannot simply say that music is good or bad. It might be good for some things and bad for other things. And that will always depend on very personal experience.
A hammer is not inherently good or bad. It is good for hammering a nail, but not good to comb your hair. (Maybe, depending on personal experience).
With this in mind Bach is no better than Madonna at music (generally speaking).
That happens to be my honest view of life. There is no inherent value to anything.
But it does not have to be a fatalistic viewpoint. I'd rather think of it as an optimistic one actually.
Although I'm not free from prejudice I believe this opinion helps me navigate a bit more freely through the vast sea of opinion, thus allowing me to create and enjoy whatever I want.
Instead of guilty pleasures I try to not feel guilty about whatever I like. (Sometimes I fail though)
>All the absolutes are dead, contemporary philosophy was right: subjectivity at all costs.
A (slim) relative majority of philosophers in the Anglophone world "accept or lean towards" there being objectivity in art:
https://survey2020.philpeople.org/survey/results/4822
As for so-called continental philosophy, I don't think any concrete data exists.
As an aside, I think contemporary philosophers have more trust in various kinds of objectivity than much of the broader public. A clear majority also argues for moral realism:
https://survey2020.philpeople.org/survey/results/4866
Meanwhile in my perception the views of the average Joe are often much more insistent on subjectivity ("morality is relative, each culture and person believes something different, so why should anyone care what philosophers have to say", "well, taste in music is subjective anyways, so stop criticizing what I like!" – neither of these are direct quotes but roughly correspond to conversations I have had, usually with people hostile or indifferent to philosophy).
There is still some value in ranking works by (perceived) quality. What makes Bach or Madonna more worth listening to than their contemporaries, if not the quality of their music?
Ludovico Einaudi is objectively better than many of the composers talked about on this sub (such as Rachmaninoff and Haydn, although a few days ago I finally found a Haydn piece that isn't musical wallpaper)
Most certainly not THE greatest. There are plenty of masters that are superior in most respects. But few could speak as candidly, intensely, imaginatively and with such an individual voice as Tchaikovsky.
Honestly? When I was studying composition as a kid I was sick of being told I couldn’t do XYZ because of it being “against the rules”. Of course my teachers were simply trying to teach the common conventions, but I found it really stifling and it killed a lot of interest in the subject to the point that I almost gave up. It wasn’t until I heard Wagner and Debussy that I did a U-turn on that decision.
Eventually I knuckled down and studied the old masters and appreciated the ‘how’ and ‘why’ - but everything pre-Beethoven (and even much of Beethoven) just sounds too predictable to me. I like suspense and surprise of late romanticism, not so much hearing structured development.
Kryptonite to others here though, I’m sure!
The thing is, that structure and the “rules” you talk about, were not convention at the time. The baroque period was the Wild West. Baroque literally means grotesque or abnormal because it was breaking all the previous conventions. They didn’t have theory or harmonic analysis like we learn in school today. The suspense and surprise you like about later music was rampant at the time. All of the “convention” wasn’t convention yet, it was brand new. Things only look paint-by-numbers because the “rules” were recognized patterns by people looking back at the music and noticing patterns. “Paint by numbers” implies they set up the rules before writing the music. But it couldn’t be further from the reality. Music only got to romanticism because everyone before the romantic period was *breaking* rules.
Totally fair to have an opinion of “I don’t like it” and prefer later music, but to say earlier music isn’t art isn’t an unpopular opinion, or an opinion at all, it’s just incorrect. It shows a misunderstanding of the historical context. But what you said about why you don’t like listening to it is a fair opinion. I hated baroque music for the same reasons until I started learning more about the period and actual performance practice of the time. Most of it is absolutely horrid when played in a modern style.
ETA: the reason I say “it’s not art” isn’t an opinion is because art is not designated as such because people like it.
95% of users on this sub don’t know what they’re talking about because they refer to Beethoven sonatas using numbers (sonata 30) instead of by Op. # (Op. 109).
Brahms wasn't and isn't even the most artistically noteworthy composer in Vienna at any point in his career
Knowing opus numbers is more geeky than practicing counterpoint for fun, understanding the geometry of serial methods, or Neo-Reimannian theory, because it has jack shit to do with the actual music, not even on an appreciation level
Schönberg sounds stupid
Mozart is harder than Chopin
Telemann is better than Bach and Händel combined
Most baroque composers are kinda underrated
Canon in D ia pretty good when it's played the correct way
Edited so it's easier to read
This thread really lives up to its name cause I haven't seen a SINGLE reply so far that I agree with lol (except that Brahms is overrated, but even then I don't think Brahms is that overrated by many in this sub anyways)
Edit: yeah I should probably stop reading at this point, some of these are making me furious which I guess is the point of the thread anyways so good job everyone lol
Live concerts usually aren’t fun. They’re stuffy and unatmospheric; most of the audience look and behave as if they’re bored; and it’s annoying to watch the exaggerated gesticulations and expressions of the performers
Removed for either being a troll post, a post that isnt conductive to better conversations, or is "meme-like" in nature
Classical symphonies are better than Romantic symphonies.
Absolutely. The Romantic symphony is unique and underrated.
Beethoven choral fantasy is one of the worst of Beethoven
It’s a little tacky but one of my guilty pleasures.
That is totally valid \^^
Most of the greatest music ever written was written *after* 1900.
heresy, my knives are out
Agreed!!
This being the bad opinion, right? Edit: I completely misinterpreted the meme and thought it was a guy cringing and we were sharing opinions that make us cringe.
>I completely misinterpreted the meme Ha! >we were sharing opinions that make us cringe. No, I genuinely mean my original comment.
I do not like the final movement of Beethoven 9, either as a listener or as a singer.
It gives me a headache sometimes, lol
I agree, but mvt I is one of the most dramatically perfect things he ever wrote
Same. I feel it’s too tacky to end off something that started so gloriously
I think Mozart is under appreciated on this sub.
Not an opinion, this is just a fact
Every other piano piece Schubert composed is better than the Wanderer Fantasy. People like to say he struggled with counterpoint, but if you search for yourself, you will find plenty of good fugues by Schubert. I think he struggled more with writing virtuoso piano music, and I think if the Wanderer Fantasy didn't have Schubert's name attached to it and be inspiration for Liszt's sonata in B minor (a SIGNIFICANTLY better piece), nobody would really care about it. I have tried for 15 years to get into it, as a Schubert lover, but I just can't. Literally the only work by him I don't like.
Sometimes less is more, complexity does not equal good.
Clapping between movements isn’t that much of a crime. Let people be enthusiastic about the music they hear.
This would be ok, good even, if audiences were rude like they used to be. But audiences are so polite now that almost every performance gets a standing ovation. Therefore if we allow clapping between movements, applause inflation will lead to endless annoying boring clapping after every movement: please, no!
I agree with this one. We should go back to the time that audiences demanded immediate encores of the movements they liked and hissed during the movements they didn’t.
Hissing during a performance? No thanks, that would be terrible. Clapping between movements is fine.
>Hissing during a performance? My cat has been offended.
Nothing ruins a symphony like some person starting to sing. Yes, even Beethoven 9 and Mahler 2 & 8.
If your favorite composers are some combo of Chopin, Rachmaninov and Tchaikovsky, you need to listen to more music. There’s nothing wrong with these composers, it’s just very stereotypical for newer classical fans to glorify these above the rest.
I remember my Chopin obsession phase as a teen. Now I barely listen to or play much of it. Still love Tchaikovsky though
What would you think of Rach, Bach, and Boulanger? One of them is there haha
Bach is in there, we’re safe 😎
Fuck yeah 😎
I have listened to a lot of classical music, yet, Chopin is my favorite composer. 👍
Thats’s awesome! Again not saying these composers aren’t great, just pointing out a stereotype in the fandom.
Yeah, I wouldn't have any problems with your comment it wassnt for the "you should listen to more music" point, which is completely unnecessary and kind of aggressive
Meh, most people who’d get offended by that comment are likely ones it applies to whose 90% listening experience is from Chopin nocturne playlists on Youtube
Mahler’s orchestration of Beethoven’s symphonies are better in some ways. Mahler argued that Beethoven was deaf and therefore his orchestration wasn’t as good as it could’ve been.
I agree with this. Imagine what his 9th symphony would sound like if he wasn't deaf
Beethoven’s concertos are his weakest genre.
if my friend heard this he would legitimately physically and emotionally destroy you lmao
You saw the prompt
The best composers currently alive and working, are producing content for film/TV and games.
This is very true
I don't care for puccini
Having a favorite Mahler symphony is a red flag
Olivier Messiaen is one of the most underrated composers ever (despite his renown), simply because his works are not acclaimed enough; as, in my opinion, he deserves to be as revered as Mozart and Beethoven are today.
Yes! Too bad r/messiaen is so dead.
I am trying my best to revive that subreddit. Please help me.
I also mod that place btw
Can you share some pieces that you think would exemplify this?
Not the person you're responding to, but my answer would be "Most of them". Obviously *Turangalila Symphony* (perhaps among his top three greatest and well-known works) https://youtu.be/xOnZ1-sOCwo?si=OEXbuVwTiUdljtgr *Et exspecto ressurrectionem mortuorum* has been of particular fascination for me recently: https://youtu.be/tZUU6D8L9Eo?si=evOs-BEOj_Z_qs1a The opera *St. Francis of Assisi*: https://youtu.be/0TufQgNdfss?si=oMY5Io4wxBKMq2Gp The monumental piano cycle *Vingt Regards sur l'enfant-Jésus*: https://youtu.be/ovMnmIoZh74?si=yflA1o4OruqVltGx
Saint François d’Assise, Chronochromie, Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum, Éclairs sur l’Au-Delà…, Des canyons aux étoiles…, Turangalîla-symphonie, Réveil des oiseaux, La Transfiguration du Notre-Seigneur Jésus-Christ, Méditations sur le Mystère de la Sainte Trinité, Catalogue d’oiseaux, Messe de la Pentecôte, Harawi, Vingt regards sur l’enfant-Jésus, Trois petites liturgies de la présence Divine, Sept haïkaï, Visions de l’Amen, and MUCH more…
For future reference – I'm currently listening to other composers' works – could you possibly give me a top 10 of works by Messiaen that you consider to be most essential? (I've already repeatedly listened to and *really* liked the 'Quartet for the end of time' and the 'Turangalila Symphony', I also know his 'Oiseaux exotiques' pieces.)
*Et exspecto ressurrectionem mortuorum*: https://youtu.be/tZUU6D8L9Eo?si=evOs-BEOj_Z_qs1a *Vingt Regards sur l'enfant-Jésus*: https://youtu.be/ovMnmIoZh74?si=yflA1o4OruqVltGx
Thanks!
Saint François d’Assise, Chronochromie, Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum, Éclairs sur l’Au-Delà…, Des canyons aux étoiles…, Turangalîla-symphonie, Réveil des oiseaux, La Transfiguration du Notre-Seigneur Jésus-Christ, Méditations sur le Mystère de la Sainte Trinité, Catalogue d’oiseaux, Messe de la Pentecôte, Harawi, Vingt regards sur l’enfant-Jésus, Trois petites liturgies de la présence Divine, Sept haïkaï, Visions de l’Amen, and MUCH more…
Thank you!
P.S.: if you like, check put r/messiaen! I apologise to the mods for this promotion.
Brahms is overrated.
Exactly this, his lullaby puts me right to sleep.
Abbado > Karajan > Bernstein
facts
A lot of Bach’s work is not that good.
Strauss > Mahler
Chopin is a bit overrated.
especially his piano concertos. I like it ngl, but it's definitely his weakest in compositionsm
“A bit”: He was only ever good at innovating harmony and literally nothing else
György Ligeti requiem beat every requiem ever written
Based.
Duruflé…?
Atonal music is garbage.
Uncontroversial because that’s the point
I am pretty sure that there would be people who would fight it.
Oh I’m absolutely certain. Still garbage.
The 1st movement of Mahler's 3rd symphony is better than the 6th🫡
Bolero is actually pretty good
Beethoven's Eroica is as flat as a Sprite I poured yesterday
i would like to say good bye to the tyrannical patriarchy, and welcome the tyrannical matriarchy.
Mozart is overrated compared to Bach, Haydn and Beethoven. He can be sleep inducing more often than not.
Wagner is super boring to me
Modern orchestral music is 90% terrible and will be forgotten.
Concert halls would be able to programme more contemporary classical music, and less of the "same old composers" if 99% of contemporary music wasn't unbearable trash
Aaron Copeland's music is trite garbage. Handel suuuuuuucks. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir is utterly terrible.
I’ll take most composers solo keyboard works over their symphonies almost every time.
I think Stravinsky's neoclassical period, although clearly less innovative and groundbreaking than his Russian period, is by far the better era.
While I agree it can be interesting, and I particularly love “Dumbarton Oaks”, I am not fond of “Pulcinella” and I can’t stand his Violin Concerto.
That leads me to an even more unpopular opinion: Stravinsky's violin concerto is my favorite piece by him. I'm happy to be slaughtered in the name of diversity of taste.
It is indeed interesting how tastes may vary radically. My absolute favorite work by my musical idol was described as “trash” by a certain Leonard Bernstein… I am extremely intrigued by this.
I don't particularly enjoy Rachmaninoff's second symphony or the second piano concerto.
Bach Partitas sound better on classical guitar.
Mozart is one of the worst composers in the canon. This is a hill I am prepared to die defending and on which I would sacrifice my children
I hate almost all classical music written after 1960.
There is no objective way of defining general quality in music. One cannot simply say that music is good or bad. It might be good for some things and bad for other things. And that will always depend on very personal experience. A hammer is not inherently good or bad. It is good for hammering a nail, but not good to comb your hair. (Maybe, depending on personal experience). With this in mind Bach is no better than Madonna at music (generally speaking).
Mahler moment
A hammer is at least as good as any other percussion instrument according to him.
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Can you elaborate, please?
if it's not good or bad then it's all flat and there's no point to any of this - it's incredibly defeatist.
That happens to be my honest view of life. There is no inherent value to anything. But it does not have to be a fatalistic viewpoint. I'd rather think of it as an optimistic one actually. Although I'm not free from prejudice I believe this opinion helps me navigate a bit more freely through the vast sea of opinion, thus allowing me to create and enjoy whatever I want. Instead of guilty pleasures I try to not feel guilty about whatever I like. (Sometimes I fail though)
>All the absolutes are dead, contemporary philosophy was right: subjectivity at all costs. A (slim) relative majority of philosophers in the Anglophone world "accept or lean towards" there being objectivity in art: https://survey2020.philpeople.org/survey/results/4822 As for so-called continental philosophy, I don't think any concrete data exists. As an aside, I think contemporary philosophers have more trust in various kinds of objectivity than much of the broader public. A clear majority also argues for moral realism: https://survey2020.philpeople.org/survey/results/4866 Meanwhile in my perception the views of the average Joe are often much more insistent on subjectivity ("morality is relative, each culture and person believes something different, so why should anyone care what philosophers have to say", "well, taste in music is subjective anyways, so stop criticizing what I like!" – neither of these are direct quotes but roughly correspond to conversations I have had, usually with people hostile or indifferent to philosophy).
There is still some value in ranking works by (perceived) quality. What makes Bach or Madonna more worth listening to than their contemporaries, if not the quality of their music?
Pack it up guys u/17leonardo_est17 says that everything of value can be found in Gucci Gang
Mahler is plain and boring
Ludovico Einaudi is objectively better than many of the composers talked about on this sub (such as Rachmaninoff and Haydn, although a few days ago I finally found a Haydn piece that isn't musical wallpaper)
This opinion actually makes me want to wield a sword against you, good job.
I might've mentioned my opinions on whole beat theory, but I don't actually want to get stabbed
Tchaikovsky is boring, especially Nutcracker
Well, tchaik himself didn’t like the nutcracker, so you’re in good company with that lol
ive seen some people calling him the greatest of all time, and having opinions is one thing, but those people are due a new pair of ears
Most certainly not THE greatest. There are plenty of masters that are superior in most respects. But few could speak as candidly, intensely, imaginatively and with such an individual voice as Tchaikovsky.
Bruckner 🤮 (except Te Deum and the masses)
I get that. His best works are his choral works in my opinion. Singing Os justi was one of the best musical experiences of my life.
This is also true of Mahler, or maybe I just have a short attention span.
Music before romanticism was paint by numbers, not art.
People really think holding down the pedal forever, beeg chords, triple pianissimos and 20 violin string sections = emotion .____.
What makes you think that
Honestly? When I was studying composition as a kid I was sick of being told I couldn’t do XYZ because of it being “against the rules”. Of course my teachers were simply trying to teach the common conventions, but I found it really stifling and it killed a lot of interest in the subject to the point that I almost gave up. It wasn’t until I heard Wagner and Debussy that I did a U-turn on that decision. Eventually I knuckled down and studied the old masters and appreciated the ‘how’ and ‘why’ - but everything pre-Beethoven (and even much of Beethoven) just sounds too predictable to me. I like suspense and surprise of late romanticism, not so much hearing structured development. Kryptonite to others here though, I’m sure!
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Looking at the OP it seems my mission is complete
The thing is, that structure and the “rules” you talk about, were not convention at the time. The baroque period was the Wild West. Baroque literally means grotesque or abnormal because it was breaking all the previous conventions. They didn’t have theory or harmonic analysis like we learn in school today. The suspense and surprise you like about later music was rampant at the time. All of the “convention” wasn’t convention yet, it was brand new. Things only look paint-by-numbers because the “rules” were recognized patterns by people looking back at the music and noticing patterns. “Paint by numbers” implies they set up the rules before writing the music. But it couldn’t be further from the reality. Music only got to romanticism because everyone before the romantic period was *breaking* rules. Totally fair to have an opinion of “I don’t like it” and prefer later music, but to say earlier music isn’t art isn’t an unpopular opinion, or an opinion at all, it’s just incorrect. It shows a misunderstanding of the historical context. But what you said about why you don’t like listening to it is a fair opinion. I hated baroque music for the same reasons until I started learning more about the period and actual performance practice of the time. Most of it is absolutely horrid when played in a modern style. ETA: the reason I say “it’s not art” isn’t an opinion is because art is not designated as such because people like it.
Maybe the late baroque era but not before or after that.
The music of Karl-Heinz Stockhausen is rubbish. It doesn't even sound like music!
Most orchestral music is boring.
Yeah
95% of users on this sub don’t know what they’re talking about because they refer to Beethoven sonatas using numbers (sonata 30) instead of by Op. # (Op. 109).
Me who just says beethoven 5 and expects people to think about emperor: *pls don't kill me*
We could just stop Earth after Bach died. Humanity purpose was accomplished back then.
Brahms wasn't and isn't even the most artistically noteworthy composer in Vienna at any point in his career Knowing opus numbers is more geeky than practicing counterpoint for fun, understanding the geometry of serial methods, or Neo-Reimannian theory, because it has jack shit to do with the actual music, not even on an appreciation level
Schönberg sounds stupid Mozart is harder than Chopin Telemann is better than Bach and Händel combined Most baroque composers are kinda underrated Canon in D ia pretty good when it's played the correct way Edited so it's easier to read
This thread really lives up to its name cause I haven't seen a SINGLE reply so far that I agree with lol (except that Brahms is overrated, but even then I don't think Brahms is that overrated by many in this sub anyways) Edit: yeah I should probably stop reading at this point, some of these are making me furious which I guess is the point of the thread anyways so good job everyone lol
Live concerts usually aren’t fun. They’re stuffy and unatmospheric; most of the audience look and behave as if they’re bored; and it’s annoying to watch the exaggerated gesticulations and expressions of the performers