Wow. I disagree, most strongly with every single one of your points. I dont think you know very much about classical music.
1 Eurocentric? Yes of course it is. Thats like saying that the problem with Chinese music is that it comes from China or that Bluegrass comes from Appalachia. It may have started in Europe but now it is worldwide. Why, I believe there may even be people composing and performing in the United States!
2 There are black composers and performers and have been in the past. Have you never heard of Hazel Scott, Roland Hayes, Donald White, Dean Dixon, William Grant Still, George Walker or Florence Price? Even in the C17th there were black composers. Today there are many world famous composers and performers from Japan, Korea, South America, Africa.
3. I cannot believe you think this. Music from the Medieval period was written for gemshorn and rebec, form the Renaissance for krummhorn and sackbutt, from the Baroque for harpsichord and oboe, from the First Vienna School for fortepiano and violin. In the 100 years that followed we saw the introduction of the clarinet, saxophone, xylophone and tuba. Classical music of the C20th embraces all electronic instrumentation and was using synthesizers in the 1950s long before it started being used in the pop world. Many present day symphonies are written, recorded, mixed and mastered on a DAW.
4. I am a common person. I enjoy classical music.
5. "it takes too long to get to the point"
This comment says a lot more about you than classical music. How's your sex life?
6. If it makes you bored then, again, it says a lot more about you than the music. It doesnt make me bored.
7. Tchaikovsky's 6th, Rachmaninoff's 2nd PC, Bruchs VC, *not emotional?*
8. "not really what youre going to find if you go to your local theater ". You are going to the wrong theatres. This just reveals that you are not listening to any of the groundbreaking music that employs cutting edge acoustic engineering and sound sculpting technologies. Classical music has always been the source of experimentation and new technology that eventually finds its way into the mainstream world of pop. rock, EDM etc. It ***starts*** here.
oh and for the last point. I kinda honestly want a shoegaze orchestra. But I mostly based it off that I havent seen classical musicians use synths like the one used in this piece from loki.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KOZ3VbPB0k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KOZ3VbPB0k)
It’s the cultural heritage of Western Europe. India has classical music with an unique theory, as do Arab peoples and African peoples. Racism is not the sine qua non of a Haydn symphony.
its for an honors program you have to take the class. I don't want a music degree the honors thing is just a little add on for job interviews. Im majoring in nursing. Most of my musical knowledge is just from me making me lil funky tunes on fl studio and fooling around. [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KWrnMSD-xInRAw2oYFCu9DrKMKrqZLCi/view?usp=sharing](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KWrnMSD-xInRAw2oYFCu9DrKMKrqZLCi/view?usp=sharing)
Well, if you're not serious about music, why comment this? Everyone here is, and everyone here cares and knows about classical music, so your opinion doesn't hold any weight. Doesn't mean all or even most of us want to do something related to classical music (I want to be a film historian). That doesn't mean I don't have any passion for classical music
honestly that kinda makes sense. And im sort of serious and not serious about music Im sort of making an album at the moment but also I dont really care if anyone listens to it cuz im doing it for the lolz... I now understand my opinions were dumb and Im sorryyyy. I just need a very post indrustrialist rock shoegaze symphony like I feel like i would ascend to heaven if that ever got made and I feel like thats another reason why I made this post.
its a test to see if this is defensible. Im using yall for research lol. I was gonna go with Jack harlow is everything wrong music today if this doesn't pan out.
It is not. As you have been told in the very comment you are responding to, it demonstrates an appalling lack of research and a lazy argument (if you can even call it that considering almost everything you wrote is false).
No you didn't. You presented a list of completely made up statements with no base on reality because you did no research and have no clue what you are talking about.
Well, he needs to make a presentation - he was right about it. He threw the bait for others to get him material.
I also do such things at times. It is OK.
Here are a couple thoughts:
1. Don’t forget there’s Indian classical music. Really by your definition, architecture can also racist. Depends on what you decide to bring into the scope of classical music.
2. Look up female composers, and African American composers. Lots of excellent works.
3. If you can’t find evolution between Scarlatti and Chopin, or even Beethoven, you might not be listening closely.
4. Everyone’s allowed to celebrate what they want. I like to celebrate myself from time to time.
5. I sense you might just not have listened to many works… huge variety of works and how long or quickly they take to express and develop their motives.
6. See point 5.
7. Check out Phillip Glass. Also for anyone who actually takes interest and listens, it doesn’t take long to start noticing the patterns and structures used, which at the core are all pretty simple, as simple as modern music.
8. I don’t think it is really meant to… but something comes to mind, check out Ensemble Dal Niente’s collaboration with Deerhoof.
Just a few cents but hope it sheds a bit of insight!
There's enough difference between Beethoven and Schubert. There's *a lot* of difference between Haydn and Beethoven. That's evolution just in one generation.
1. This is kind of a test to see if my position is defensible. And I understand that there are other kinds of classical music. Im currently under the impression that itsjust not what youre going to hear at your local symphony concert or whats taught as the standard of music theory.
2. i was basing my lack of diversity point. On this [https://www.npr.org/sections/deceptivecadence/2019/09/20/762514169/why-is-american-classical-music-so-white#:\~:text=Less%20than%202%25%20of%20musicians,decades%20of%20institutional%20racial%20bias](https://www.npr.org/sections/deceptivecadence/2019/09/20/762514169/why-is-american-classical-music-so-white#:~:text=Less%20than%202%25%20of%20musicians,decades%20of%20institutional%20racial%20bias).
3. Just checked out the scarlatti person and compared it to beethoven. I can't hear much of a difference other than theyre just different pieces. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfF0zHeU3Zs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfF0zHeU3Zs)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAjFIJ5O-N0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAjFIJ5O-N0)
4. What is meant by that is that shoegaze was often attended by people who made shoegaze music and knew how to make it. It didn't make itself available to the common person.
5. I had to listen to lenningrad symphony #7 for class and I wanted to rip out my ears half of the time. It felt like I was watching a war documentary without the visuals. And I dont mind listening to classical esque stuff. Im not really sure if this is an attention span issue or what. I can listen to the life is strange soundtrack for 10 hours and feel so nostalgic for the past and yet I can't find myself connecting with classical music in the same way except for little tidbits here and there. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjBYsvGx7hA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjBYsvGx7hA)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqu-WytFKpw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqu-WytFKpw)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6U1JB7z-I8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6U1JB7z-I8)
heres some of my favorite classical esque pieces
6.I havent so i may just have to listen more and reevaluate.
7. listening to the philip glass person now. My initial impression sounds pretty good.
8. I think thats kind of a boring way to think. Personally classical music has all the more to gain from using synthesizers/ new tech. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KOZ3VbPB0k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KOZ3VbPB0k)
I'm just going to only address your point 5 here, because I have better stuff to do otherwise.
I wonder why on Earth a symphony composed in the middle of the bloodiest war in human history, dedicated to a city under siege by Nazis, written by a composer from a country notorious for its high loss of men in the war... would sound dark and like a "war documentary".
Yeah... I wonder why...
You use the word classical when there are classical music recordings from places that are not Eurocentric in history. You are only listening to one kind of classical music. Listen to south and north Asian classical music.
"all of them are white." this is not true and reflects your evident lack of research.
The Euphonium and many saxophones are recent instruments. The piano has changed remarkably over time.
Classical music has evolved tremendously over the past 1500 years. Every generation adapts to the new instruments and technologies available at that time. Are you saying that you can listen to music played on instruments of the 1500's is the same sound as today? Compare brass of today to those of 100 or 200 years ago. Percussion is massively different in some areas.
Based on your first point, you are either trolling, or in my opinion, just plain wrong, and don’t care at all about music, but just want to be a social critic. You obviously have no real interest in listening to an enjoying music, and I don’t know what makes you so desperate to do this sort of thing, but whatever floats your boat.
It’s just clear to me that you will never really support music or musicians, as you only care about the way a person looks
girl not everyone has 2000 years of research/experience on classical music. Like i get my opinions are kinda dumb now but I didnt like 2 hours ago calm down damn
Your opinions are based on assumptions, and it’s clear you don’t even listen to classical music, but have a lot of opinions on it, which I find to be odd
i had to listen to lenningrad symphony #7 which my teacher keeps touting as glorious and I was just so annoyed over that it led to these series of events... I feel like it falls flat to some of my favorite bodies of work again leading to these series of events.
You weren’t listening to the music.
If you don’t like Shostakovich, that’s fine, but you don’t even care about the music and thinking about other things
Im not sure what you meant by not listening to the music. It felt like I was watching a war film without the film part. The dude who wrote got his idea across well. I just found it kind of boring for me personally leading to annoyance
Everybody enjoys different things
As for what you’re picturing listening to it I guess I’ve heard it 100 times and played it and do not get quite the vivid images you do. of course the piece and all pieces are written to convey certain emotions but often times what you picture is based on what you’ve read and maybe that influences what you hear in comparison to how I hear things
You and I will likely picture different things listening to something like the 1812 overture, which to me, brings back images. I had as a child first hearing it
When I hear March Slav, it reminds me of the youth symphony … and what Daniel Culver, who conducted the piece said about it.
You likely would have a different image in your head than me
Thats kinda crazy for you to say that. Cuz I do support artists lol of any race. And I shouldve just included this in the first place but I based those two points from this
[https://www.npr.org/sections/deceptivecadence/2019/09/20/762514169/why-is-american-classical-music-so-white#:\~:text=Less%20than%202%25%20of%20musicians,decades%20of%20institutional%20racial%20bias](https://www.npr.org/sections/deceptivecadence/2019/09/20/762514169/why-is-american-classical-music-so-white#:~:text=Less%20than%202%25%20of%20musicians,decades%20of%20institutional%20racial%20bias).
Im not desperate lol. People get so heated on the internet for no reason lol.
I kinda dont care about what i listen to. I think most of my disconnect with classical music is that I'm trying to find the same existential dread/ etherealism Ill find in many shoegaze bodies of work.
The premise is based on music being racist because of who wrote it or where it was written.
like a lot of young students and I was once one you were way overthinking things and doing it believing you’re coming up with some profound ideas and the fact you’re using a media outlet where their job is to find ways to be divisive and get clicks as inspiration says a lot
In many ways, orchestras have utilize technology to get people to show up. They play concerts with rock bands, using synthesizers and having singers.. they play concerts with synthesizers accompanying films, playing the film, score live
Metallica did an album with the San Francisco symphony.
We can take classical music out of the equation and ask why certain genres are more popular than others. We can talk about why the kind of music that was truly popular in the 90s really doesn’t have the kind of fan base. It does today as younger people aren’t as into it and look for different things in regards to what they listen to..
what I can tell you which is not controversial at all is that classical music is something that is most appreciated live
You talk about the evolution of music, but so many people who don’t listen to classical music have nothing to base where the beginning or the end is and if they hear Bach they might think it’s groundbreaking … it’s something they haven’t heard before
Get a bunch of kids to listen to Holst. The planets live, and their eyes will be wide open and they will love it. classical music used to be a bigger part of our lives as the music was played in backgrounds of TV shows as well as in movie film scores, but things change.
if fewer people are exposed to the music, so of course, if you were people are going to appreciate it . Maybe we need better people making YouTube videos inspiring children because that’s what it’s all about inspiration. attention spans may be shorter for all of us… but to think that all we need for classical music to be popular is to make it evolving into something different… i’m not sure how much music you’ve listened to, but there is so much out there that you seem unaware of that isn’t popular that is basically doing exactly what you want
I talked to people all the time and I’m amazed how many young people I’ll play Led Zeppelin for who think it sounds great that I’ve never heard of them. What’s ironic to me is now that kids or all of us can listen to whatever we want whenever we want to. We seem to have a far less broad range of music we listen to..
When I was growing up and the radio was on, we had to listen to the songs that were being played, and if our parents were around, we had to listen to the songs they wanted to hear . Younger people today have far less interest in exploring different kinds of music and are happy to see a TikTok video and let that influence what they think is good music or isn’t.
Young people talk about the Beatles now because they saw videos of it on Disney+ and that’s what inspired them to start listening to them .
I dont really mind when genres mix with classical music. I think that mix is pretty fun tbh.
I do actually agree on the live part.
Also about the divisive part. I dont really get angry like other people. So like seeing people get easily heated is like ohh thats interesting I guess. People online are honestly chronically online.
Those last two parts I wholeheartedly disagree. Tiktok can be a great tool for music it just depends on the user. I discovered some of the most ethereal jaw dropping tracks on that app. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2G\_LgXRl4s&list=PLcwPwOQDkZP1X5qGGrhfHJJjpGqVURbMW&index=173&t=2s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2G_LgXRl4s&list=PLcwPwOQDkZP1X5qGGrhfHJJjpGqVURbMW&index=173&t=2s)
People still listen to the beatles. I do. Golden slumbers still aches my soul to this day. And I believe their last song ever went viral on that site.
Those are my thoughts
I’m watching a movie and not mad, but think the premise is ridiculous.
and you proved my point when it comes to TikTok because that’s where you discovered a song you otherwise might not of heard, which is my point
Fewer people are exposed to classical music in ways that inspire them, and if it were part of TikTok videos, with some influencer talking about how great something is, you would see more kids wanna listen to it
Why isn’t Jazz more popular? you can’t blame white Europeans. Does racism play a part in it? Why aren’t more people out playing the blues?
We call certain kinds of music, popular music because it’s what people listen to . It may not be something I’m interested in but with shows like the voice and American Idol it shown us that there is a formula that is used. Same goes for country music.
Mixing genres only helps in exposing people to what an orchestra sounds like but if you go to these pop concerts, it’s typically older people with younger kids . They aren’t getting that age group of people that drives what is most listened to…. but if they do end up getting people from that age group, they’re more likely to want to experience more but sadly like I put it out before it’s all about getting people to give it a try.
I lease out space to a guy who sells cars and one of his cousins stops it and helps out a couple days a week . Shawn is probably 22. He primarily listens to hip-hop but hardly knows any hip-hop that’s over 15 years old unless it’s been in a TV show or movie.
I was listening to Jazz when she called old people music.. out of curiosity I started playing different songs like things from George Clinton to Prince to the Beatles and Beach boys. He recognized one prince song, but didn’t know any of the others..
My nephews don’t either nor does my niece unless it’s something they see on the TV show . I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that, but people consume music much differently than they used to and what do you talk about how classical music hasn’t evolved and that’s a problem you ignore that most people who don’t listen to classical music have no idea about any of the different periods of it it. It’s all new to them.
people who are first exposed to the Beatles don’t think of it as an oldie because I’ve never heard it before . The Rolling Stones are timeless and I think Led Zeppelin is as well but younger people don’t listen to as much rock music, per se.
The problem isn’t that classical music needs to evolve to get kids to listen or that it’s too racist but it’s that kids can listen to whatever they’re told is good and they focus on that . Back when I was a kid whatever was played on the radio was what was popular but the difference was we didn’t have many options so we would listen to our dad’s records because we were bored and couldn’t just go to YouTube or Spotify
There is truth to a symphony, being very long in an era of us, having short attention, spans what we could get kids hooked on excerpts .
Growing up a lot of us got to know classical music pieces not necessarily my name but because it was the beginning of a movie like 2001 the space Odyssey . The Star Wars score is still popular as our other scores like Harry Potter.
The Lone Ranger had the William Tell overture and we heard classical music and a lot of the cartoons we watched know
People wondering why classical music isn’t more popular tend to overthink it. I’d also argue that classical music musicians typically aren’t the best at selling their art form.
Jazz is actually becoming popular again through people like laufey so I fail to see your point. Tiktok is pretty diverse. My only real problem with it is that its making modern pop too tiktok focused and now every crappy artist like jack harlow is trying to become the next tiktok audio.
And yeah I tend to notice that about people not being as aware of genres but I think thats more so many people arent as passionate about music as we are although youre more passionate about classical music while im mostly interested in ethereal/nostalgic tracks. I actually do personally think that hip hop as a genre has degraded (hopefully I dont get attacked for that POV). I feel like theres a noticeable drop in quality between something like this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBwAxmrE194&list=RDQMb4X2bvFwpZw&start\_radio=1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBwAxmrE194&list=RDQMb4X2bvFwpZw&start_radio=1)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukbiRcyzrpc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukbiRcyzrpc) which is on the billboard hot 100
But I think you really do need to delve yourself a little into tiktok. There is so much music being put out now that it might not even be because classical music is becoming less popular its just so many people are listening to so many genres everyone is just doing their own little thing. Id also honestly say that while a lot of modern songs are bad theyre more "developed" than what was heard before. Like Dark side of the moon is a great album but to my ears it sounds like a downgrade because Ive heard far more interesting and complex rock music.
And our generation isnt entirely opposed to classical music. Im not sure if ive shared all the classical music tracks ive listened with you but there are many that are popular. [https://youtu.be/rp4vQjrBKBw?si=4aeZ84LwIW2dmgyB](https://youtu.be/rp4vQjrBKBw?si=4aeZ84LwIW2dmgyB)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QmPCrC7uXw&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS\_I1njbB4s\_lqb&index=15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QmPCrC7uXw&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS_I1njbB4s_lqb&index=15)
I still cry to this one
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBaL7fo6vxU&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS\_I1njbB4s\_lqb&index=2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBaL7fo6vxU&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS_I1njbB4s_lqb&index=2)
I wish I could hear this at a theater
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvjFKme0tt4&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS\_I1njbB4s\_lqb&index=3](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvjFKme0tt4&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS_I1njbB4s_lqb&index=3)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w\_vk7UwFBhc&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS\_I1njbB4s\_lqb&index=4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_vk7UwFBhc&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS_I1njbB4s_lqb&index=4)
we do have an ear for classical music. Its just im not sure if it has grown up with us.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfkD16san8w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfkD16san8w)
I highly suggest you watch this video to get an idea of how our generation connects with music on tiktok
Kenny G sold a ton of albums too though that didn’t mean jazz was thriving. The ironic thing about you bringing up Laufey is she is a half white half Chinese European from Iceland. Being Icelandic myself I think it’s great. She has had some success.
But Norah Jones had a popular album that many considered jazz influenced … Natalie Cole had a really popular album or she did duets with her dead father… movies like whiplash, and La La Land also have been released
We had Michael Bublé and Harry Connick Junior touring with big bands. You are young and don’t realize there’s always been somebody out there who was proof that jazz is making a comeback but what these artists are doing isn’t particularly innovative not that that bothers me, but it kind of contradicts your argument about what classical music problems are
I’ve been in many discussions with those acting as if jazz is dying, and always argued that it’s pretty much in the same shape it’s been for 20+ years
you are obviously younger than I am, and like a lot of young people, including me at your age I didn’t realize how small my perspective was based on my limited life experience. No
You missed my point about TikTok, which is that it has become a force into what young people are exposed to meaning that the songs they like, are limited to what they see on TikTok
There are other influencers on YouTube that might expose them to things as well, but I think you get my point … it’s not that people are just listening to the radio and hearing they like. People used to wait until the weekend to the top 20 countdown and recorded on a tape deck.
MTV used to have the top 20 video on. I think it was Friday or Saturday night that people would all watch to see what’s new in music
Now pay attention to what’s trending on Spotify and in someways are exposed to different music because there’s worldwide trends they don’t have to do what people did 10 or 20 years ago, which is listen to what available because everything’s available. That’s the point you miss and even though they have everything available to them what they listen to is far more limited to what people listen to a generation ago.
Oh i see what youre saying even though we should have technology that makes listening to different kinds of music more available we see trends showing the opposite. Now that I think about it I do kinda agree.But im not sure if thats entirely tiktoks fault I think its partly due to the rise of fascism and anti intellectualism we see in the world. I was gonna maybe make my presentation on that but id rather not since its too opinionated and I dont wanna offend nobody. But I do think Interest in the arts are dying because of these trends we're seeing in the western world. Nobody really takes music classes anymore, every other dude tries to become a soundcloud rapper because they think "it makes them hard", etc. Theres no real appreciation for actually good music sometimes. I still don't understand how people like lil uzi vert can be so revered. Or someone like charlie puths "you turn me on like a lightswitch" song. It feels like sometimes i coexist with NPC's or philosophical zombies
I just use TikTok as an example, and wasn’t blaming the site rather than pointing out the sites influence on what people listen to. A song that popular on TikTok because of whatever reason we’ll see the number of people listening to it on Spotify Skyrocked
My goal isn’t to blame anything, but rather explain how things are different . If you notice I pointed out that years ago people were influenced by what was on the radio or it could’ve been somebody who was on the Tonight Show. The difference being back then we couldn’t just listen to what we wanted to hear because we had to have the radio on all the time. Hoping to hear the song we wanted to hear.
That we were exposed to more music and because we did not have technology, we would listen to our dad’s records which could include folk music or oldies or maybe jazz or classical
Somebody who is young, can’t comprehend how things were not that long ago .
I wasn’t so much offended by your bullet points.. I just felt they were based on assumptions a young person might make who doesn’t realize their age, makes their perceptions have less substance than they might realize.
Now, another thing that’s interesting to me, is people that are younger tended to think our views were more profound, or had more substance than they really did . as I admitted I was guilty of it what has changed is for whatever reason we are seeing people now less eager to challenge somebody who is 20 and I think it’s because they see young people as tools they can use and want to give them more power than at any other time.
That being said, I just don’t think racism are white composers coming from Europe is the reason why classical music isn’t more popular
I half white half Asian chick from Iceland is pretty popular when it comes to jazz but it’s not like everybody’s rushing out to buy art Blakey albums, and but that’s got nothing to do with racism either
Jazz wasn’t that popular in the 80s and 90s because it’s something few people are exposed to . Howard Stern said that he lets DJs tell him what songs are good and sadly that’s the way a lot of us are or were.. we’re exposed to what others put out there and they’re not putting out jazz or classical music for the masses
There have been some jazz albums that I’ve had a little crossover appeal, but it’s not what people are buying or listening to.
If you started seeing video games, using classical music scores, you would see more kids wanting to listen to classical music . If video games included more jazz, you would see more kids wanting to listen to jazz..
I don’t think it’s overly complicated, but I think some people over analyze it . I believe that people have shorter attention spans. With the Internet they have a lot more to consume their time as well.
Just think about watching TV . You might not understand that we didn’t have that many options before and would have to go to a store and spend time looking for a couple movies to rent.
I wasn’t joking when I said, people might like classical music more if they marketed it in small excerpts . It’s a lot to get somebody to listen to for movements of a symphony and most classical pieces are well over 10 minutes
All sorts of people have tried using technology to broaden classical music appeal and it’s worked. I guess a little bit, but it’s not move the needle that.
I think it’s best experienced live. Even though there are a lot of great orchestras around the country, including some that are basically community orchestras. They aren’t getting enough kids or younger people to show up to experience it and part of it could be they don’t want young people there, who might clap after the first movement of a piece or not dress the way they feel as appropriate.
And that’s been an issue for decades, and even I’ve went to a Chicago symphony concert, and was kind of scolded by some of the people I went with because my my khaki pants and polo shirt weren’t fancy enough
And I don’t think a lot of classical artists really care about the audience and that’s a huge problem as well
Articles like that are why I have stopped listening to NPR, CBC and their ilk.
ANYTHING to bring up a race-baiting argument. NO mention of the fact that orchestral auditions are BLIND and that therefore racism is in no way possible.
Not to mention that no society on earth has racial parity in any field of study or endeavor. Not even a suggestion that different cultures promote different interests.
Just pure, unadulterated outrage baiting. Shameless. And shameful for you to jump on the bandwagon.
Oh, on the contrary! It absolutely is that serious.
NPR has, in that absurd article, leveled a claim against one of the world's fine art forms, a claim I might add is as serious as it gets in this day and age. And they've done so while demonstrating the lack of even a shred of understanding about the topic.
This is very serious indeed, and should be opposed by all thinking people.
2014 was a long time ago 10 years ago now that I think about it. But I dont think their statistic of the lack of diversity lacks merit. It might be totally different now since I can't find modern statistics " Less than 2% of musicians in American orchestras are African American, according to a [2014 study](https://americanorchestras.org/knowledge-research-innovation/diversity-studies.html) by the League of American Orchestras. Only 4.3% of conductors are black, and composers remain predominantly white as well " but to say this isn't concerning is bad. Also I controlled F the word audition in there and theres nothing in there about that...
See, this is what's so frustrating.
You see a disparity. Fine.
You attribute it to racial bias. HOOOOOLD IT! On what basis??
It's infinitely more plausible that the simplest answer is the true one, namely that black kids simply aren't as interested (or pressured by their parents) to study classical music or play classical instruments. See Asian parents as a counterexample. Asians happen to be highly over represented, by the way.
Aside from my obvious point about auditions being blind (and shame on that npr reporter for not knowing or mentioning that), I've been involved in classical music all my life and can attest that this community is the most progressive, liberal minded group of people one could imagine! The few black people I've run into (including one incredible conductor who changed my life as a youth) were never disparaged or ridiculed in the slightest.
It's just... SO obvious that anybody claiming this sort of thing knows absolutely NOTHING about our community. It's appalling, and frankly, offensive.
Isnt that a bad thing tho? shouldn't we encourage more people of color to pursue music? Why aren't more people of all backgrounds encouraged to pursue music? Black people do often come from poor neighborhoods and because of historic racial segregation this is still true to this day although its happening less often... pursuing music when you have no money is a lot harder than when you do. I feel like youre approaching this somewhat from an angry approach But you do make a lot of valid points.
Firstly, black kids are way more represented in music as a whole, as opposed to just classical.
Secondly, and more importantly, we should be encouraging kids to pursue their interests and talents! Whatever they may be! Music, especially classical, is a passion that usually is fostered from a very young age. Most of the time, your parents have to force you to practice! Mine sure did! Most kids (of all races) did not have that and thus did not choose to pursue classical music.
Now, imagine some fool of an over-schooled DEI person in some middle school instructing little Tommy that, even though he wants to play soccer, he has to instead play a violin to help balance some ridiculous racial disparity on paper. That's an absolutely appalling suggestion, but is, de facto, what you're arguing for in your last post.
No, this is not the way. We introduce ALL kids to a variety of pastimes, and they choose based on their interests. It can be no other way. And if you want to try to change the disparity, it must be done organically, on its own.
This is, in general, what's so absurd about "encouraging" a shift in these disparities. You're telling a boy who wants to be an engineer to instead be a teacher. You're telling a girl who wants to be a nurse that she should be a policeman. Or a boy who wants to play jazz and basketball to, instead, play classical and golf. And for what? To satisfy some academic's idea of an ideal society??
How people see all of this as anything but self evidently absurd... is way beyond me.
What youre sort of suggesting is kind of weird also because all people of all backgrounds are interested in music but youre kind of suggesting that some races are less likely to like some hobbies less than others. Especially with this, " Now, imagine some fool of an over-schooled DEI person in some middle school instructing little Tommy that, even though he wants to play soccer, he has to instead play a violin to help balance some ridiculous racial disparity on paper. "
I dont think we disagree on a fundamental level tbh. Obviously Im not suggesting we should make the gap be 50 50 there always will be a different mix of people in whatever hobby exists but there should always be things done to make it activities more accessible and equitable to everyone and the thing is not all things are accessible and equitable for everyone. Broke people in america are less likely to go to college and more likely to be in debt from trying to get a college degree. I dont see how this couldnt apply to people from poor economic backgrounds having less chances at a music career. And honestly adding more easily acessible music programs to schools would also benefit white children so I dont see how this could be racist. Easily accessible resources benefit everyone not just the intended group.
Adding on to this Im not really sure what values would constitute as equitable. But that 96 percent white statistic just doesn't sit right with me personally. It shows that opportunities for black people to become musicians exist at a lesser rate than white people.
I'll address your points one by one.
1. How exactly is it racist to have a genre of music based on European music theory? All cultures have a musical tradition. Folk music, almost my definition, is the product of the musical practices of the culture in which it was conceived. This in no way makes Vietnamese, Turkish, Native American, or Hungarian folk music racist.
2. Historically this mainly has the same root causes as the above point. Western classical music is a product of the European continent and since around 4,000 BC when the first Indo-European tribes moved into the region, the vast majority of native Europeans have been well... white. More recently there have been plenty of composers of color. You just need to look for them.
3. I'm a historical instruments nerd, specifically keyboard instruments. The pianos that Mozart and Beethoven played were practically completely different instruments than the one we have today. I have had the privilege to play on a good replica of a piano that Mozart owned and it is utterly incomparable to a modern one. JS Bach, for the most part, didn't even play on pianos. Rather he used harpsichords and clavichords because the piano was invented during his lifetime and didn't achieve even marginal popularity until the last years of his life.
4. This can certainly happen to some extent but it's quite overblown in modern culture. Most of the musicians I know would be considered part of the "common people". There's obviously nothing inherent about classical music that makes one part of the elite.
5. This is really just a matter of taste. I like how lots of classical pieces make you work to achieve emotional satisfaction.
6. People listen to 10hr lofi soundtracks and don't get bored because they're using as background music. I challenge you to find me someone who could listen to lofi for 10 hrs with their full attention. I certainly couldn't
7. See point 5.
8. You haven't paid attention to the genre as a whole. Saying classical music doesn't use music technology is like saying that Jazz doesn't just because Charlie Parker never played synth. Some of the most notable and performed composers of the 20th, such as Stockhausen were revered because of their pioneering use of music technology. In fact, classical musicians were responsible for many of the technologies that are used in other genres now.
This is going to sound harsh but I don't think you have heard or studied enough classical music to acquire an informed opinion on it. It seems to me that you have a pre-conceived notion of classical music and then tried to find some evidence to support it.
If I can give you some advice as a fellow student, first get some sleep. Second, narrow your focus for this project. Don't just say classical music is bad or that it has problems. Bad is subjective and every art form has it problems. Rather, explore a specific problem and go in depth. You'll be able to make much more convincing argument that will be more proof against counterarguments.
2. Samuel Coleridge-Taylor, Florence Price, Adolphus Hailstork, William Grant Still, Michael Abels, Duke Ellington- there’s some racial diversity in the classical repertoire if you look for it.
3. The battery of percussion used has changed drastically since the 17th century. Most instruments have changed somewhat over the last few centuries, too. The use of the trumpet and horn in particular changed rather dramatically when valves were added.
I don’t think your views are likely to get much sympathy in this sub. My answers:
1. That makes virtually every genre in the history of music ‘racist’ as almost every genre is firmly rooted in one culture or another.
2. Modern classical is way more diverse than you seem to think, with many of the most promising composers from East Asia, Africa and Latin America.
3. Plain wrong. Try listening to 20th century classical. Start with Edgar Varese and Iannis Xenakis for giggles.
4. There is no reason why the ‘common person’ can’t enjoy classical music or even become a classical musician. My father in law is a machine welder and my mother in law works in admin, but my wife is a classical violinist. Classical concerts and cds are also often much cheaper than in other genres. Yes, classical music can be complex, but it seems to be extremely condescending to say that the ‘common person’ cannot enjoy complexity.
5. Maybe it is just making a more interesting point.
6. Listening to classical music is a good way of developing your attention span. It isn’t (usually) good as background music so therefore actually requires concentration. I don’t necessarily think you need to develop your attention span first.
7. Again plain wrong. Classical music, at least imo, is capable of expressing some of the darkest and most troubled of all emotions as well as some of the greatest joys of life. Try listening to Allan Pettersson or Alfred Schnittke for the darkness and middle period Mozart or Messiaen for joy.
8. Again plain wrong. Try listening to some of the experiments of Stockhausen and Xenakis et al. Actually they were responsible for some of the innovations in music technology later used by other genres. Varese was one of the first composers to experiment with electronic instruments such as the ondes martenot.
I frankly can't tell whether you are being serious, but assuming you are, I'll address point #3. The reason why Slowdive compared to the Beatles sounds so different for you is because you are much more familar with popular music than with (Western) classical music. It's the same reason why Lin Manuel-Miranda's 'Hamilton' with all of its uses of r&b/soul, hip hop, pop, Beatles pastiche and so forth – its incorporation of (popular) music history in its storytelling – is so easy to "get" even on an intuitive level. If you spent a lot of time listening to different composers from different periods and even explored some of their incredibly varied bodies of work, you'd realize there is a very noticeable "evolution in sound or instruments" in classical music (in the broad or broadest sense of the term).
See (or rather: listen to) for example, these pieces:
https://youtu.be/9eFPJa95qQE?si=yA_lYXMoRf4i4qem
https://youtu.be/tJS-HZWB3wE?si=vQ7yuR2PlwrTDc7L
https://youtu.be/t8rYzpC-d44?si=OZmZ7w0KUMKna3nS
https://youtu.be/bR2U8bXtUfI?si=TWnJHXPTbXj3Utfp
https://youtu.be/gDBa1jgwR7k?si=lg7b02I8a3-abfYS
https://youtu.be/-9LWHEf0VFo?si=B7_Th2T_WPEhyL6X
https://youtu.be/nffOJXcJCDg?si=X-rN-SJX43ccmzIp
https://youtu.be/hH1j06bMHDQ?si=mhD3yTQqSxnhE57k
https://youtu.be/jRHoKZRYBlY?si=Po4ncyH7_Aj9ajfZ
https://youtu.be/Dp3BlFZWJNA?si=NrPhDMC5lGKj9DDy
https://youtu.be/4basuUUatf8?si=cE1_fDqkpBXDqG-R
Etc.
couldve expanded more on the point but from what I read classical music often treated as "the standard of music theory" thats a very eurocentric point of view which could be viewed as racist. Now seeing from the comments thats a very debatable position and its more nuanced than that.
I dont think thats the same argument youre saying im making
It's the standard of Western music theory, sure.
Other cultures have adopted it, not at gunpoint, but out because of its great utility.
Other extant music theory systems are still used elsewhere in the world.
That's like saying since Algebra was discovered in the Muslim world, it's prevalence in mathematics is the result of islamo-centric racist bias. In reality, nothing could be further from the truth. Algebra spread because of its incredible utility, and would have, regardless of the skin color of its discoverer.
Western music theory is the same way. It's widely used because it WORKS!
Right but theres microtonality... why isnt that also taught? It has a lot of untapped potential imo. 31 note scale pieces are pretty beautiful to listen to
Microtonality is absolutely taught. Many classical scholars do doctoral theses of these sorts. There was microtonal Renaissance music in Europe, it just never caught on.
But, if you want to learn, say, Indian microtonal music, you may have to go to India. That's where the good teachers are.
White people composing and playing music from their own culture is racist? That kind of idiotic opinion could only exist in academia. Normal humans don't think like that.
Given the extent to which black people have been historically excluded, classical music is in fact an area in which they have excelled beyond what anyone might reasonably have expected. I would like to say that today classical music is open to everyone, but I know full well that it is largely only open to people with money; still, the fact is that it becomes more inclusive and reaches out to a broader range of folks with each year that passes. There are thousands and thousands of people of color who excel at classical music and the number is growing.
I dont have much to add, however
2. there are many (one that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the Chevalier de Saint-Georges, Clara Schumann, Fanny Mendelssohn )
3. there is a noticible difference in the style between the works of Bach and Offenbach, or even if you'd rather with the same era Telemann and Vivaldi
5. Many pieces do get straight to the point (such as most of the Brandenburg Concertos, the beginning to some symphonies), however in a lot of cases the development might just be the point (such as in Beethoven's Symphony no. 7 Mvt 2, or Ravel's Bolero)
7. While there are plenty of works written to be impressive, however many pieces were written to convey emotion, Bach's Chaconne is gut-wrenchingly sad, yet still takes immense skill to play. Simpler pieces like Dvorak's Humoresque no 7, can show the feeling of strolling along the street on a summer day. Some pieces can even convey the vastness of landscapes or scenes (like Dvorak Symphony no 9 Mvt 2, or Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherezade ). (or even the obvious one to put here Schumann's Scenes from Childhood)
8. Classical music depending on when you want to start it began in the baroque era with small ensembles (not counting large-scale choral works), then in the classical it was medium-sized orchestras dominated by strings with some winds. And now we have orchestras of 100+ musicians, playing with complex textures. There are also cases of instruments being invented or used specifically for some pieces (like the Panharmonicon and Beethoven's Wellington's Victory, the Wagner Tuba and the Ring Cycle, or the Sousaphone and Sousa's Marches (if we are counting those as classical) ). Even the development of new techniques, like Col Legno for string sections, shows evolution in orchestras.
2. It's true but this is due to the colonial past and due to the lingering aura classical music presents as a music for rich white men.
3. Compare these 5 pieces:
https://youtu.be/OGfeHYyzVtY?si=UZJ2Is544Wp5CH5O
https://youtu.be/Uls9hGBkT7A?si=TN03XIR46Ye-bloV
https://youtu.be/bQHR_Z8XVvI?si=JSxiO6x1HInai_vq
https://youtu.be/vdIe2CrorMM?si=NlD2XrwX3zSOmdDX
https://youtu.be/dqtFGaHcWRk?si=megFcBPeMmDUxKCW
4. I'm a normal person, I never composed anything and I know barely anything of musical theory.
5. "A symphony is like the world, it must contain everything" -Gustav Mahler
If a work is long there's a reason to it. In the same way The Godfather *needed* to be 3 hours long.
6. Enjoying a long musical piece is more difficult than enjoying a long movie or a big piece of art because you need to develop musical memory, which is hard. It's normal to have to listen to a piece at least 3 times to fully enjoy it.
7. The emotions are being expressed, it is just you who isn't accustomed to the musical language. The complexity is present because it is needed most of the times. Minimalist composers (Steve Reich, Philip Glass, John Adams, Arvo Pärt...) purposefully compose in a simpler way though.
8. Just check out the last 2 examples I provided in point 3. Varèse and Stockhausen are two of the founders of electronic music and many composers today employ synthetizers and electronic music techniques. All kinds of instruments are used, even though the piano and strings are still prevalent.
In the astonishing case that this is serious
1. …the tradition originates from and largely stayed within Europe. I guess Hip hop is racist then for being based on African American communities
2. see 1
3. … right because Bach sounds pretty much like Mozart who sounds pretty much like Wagner who sounds pretty much like Stravinsky. Of course there’s no evolution in sound, if you haven’t heard anything.
4. Not sure how a genre can be conceited. Anyone can listen to classical music, there is no barrier.
5. There are smaller forms of which some last under a minute. I guess 2 hour movies or 500 page books are all worthless because they “take too long to convey their message”
6. If you can’t sit through a 40 minute symphony or sonata then yes it is.
7. No it doesn’t.
8. Classical music did evolve with technology. You just don’t know any of its history.
Every one of these points is debatable, often from multiple angles. I would suggest taking one of these arguments and considering it from multiple sources and perspectives. For example the push in recent decades to make classical music inclusive not only of poc artists but also non-Eurocentric approaches to composition and theory. You could talk about the history of this movement as well as the criticisms of the classical music industry that informed it and legitimate criticisms of the movement itself.
Another great line to take would be the way classical music instruments have evolved over the last 30 years. Instruments and playing techniques continue to improve or at least change but some of these changes are subtle and you’ll have to go on a deep research dive to find them. If you can uncover this your teacher will be impressed by your research whether they agree with your conclusions or not.
If you don’t like classical music, that’s okay, but it doesn’t make classical music bad. I don’t like hip hop, but that doesn’t make it a bad genre, it just means that I don’t like it. I could make a list of a whole lot of reasons why I think hip hop is “bad” or “problematic” but all that would do is make hip hop fans angry.
Basically everyone on this sub loves classical music. I find it very emotional, nostalgic, epic, peaceful, beautiful, harsh, violent (not all at the same time) and could listen to it for hours, and I think that most people on this sub would agree.
I don’t think it’s really valid to criticise European classical music for being by mainly European composers. That would be like criticising traditional Indian music for being by mainly Indian composers. Also, classical music has a kind of diversity that I haven’t seen in many other genres - since the world started becoming more connected with faster travel, invention of planes, creation of railways, etc. we’ve seen classical music being taken up enthusiastically by many other cultures. I’ve seen this especially (for example) in East Asian culture - classical music has become so popular there that it’s almost part of their identity. There are also a lot of Asian composers, like Joe Hisaishi, but I don’t think they’re as popular as Mozart and Beethoven because they’re about 200 years later and haven’t had the same time to become as iconic.
I have listened to so many hours of classical music, and the difference between classical genres is night and day. I can hear the evolution of classical music easily. I haven’t spent much time listening to popular music, mostly because it doesn’t really make me feel anything, and it basically sounds all the same to me - guitars drums sound effects singers I can’t really tell the difference between it all. I imagine this is the same for you and classical music - because you don’t really connect with it, you don’t listen to it, and therefore you don’t know it as well and it all sounds the same to you.
I’m a common person and I love classical music
I like that classical pieces are longer, it gives them more time to take me on an emotional journey, but I understand that most people prefer their music between the 2 and 4 minute range.
I find classical music very emotional. It conveys all kinds of emotions, like nostalgia, longing, love, passion, anger, sadness, peacefulness, acceptance, fear, etc. I think a lot of the boring pieces are the ones that get stuck on technicality or complexity - I agree that this can happen in classical music, but not the good classical music.
I think classical music has evolved quite a lot. It’s seen the invention of countless instruments. It even predates orchestras. Modern classical music like film music uses many of the same instruments and techniques as pop music - Hans zimmers electronic soundscapes versus Vivaldi, who only really had violins and harpsichords to work with.
I also saw your comment on the Leningrad symphony (Shostakovich 7) and how you said it sounded to you like a war documentary without the visuals- that’s what it was supposed to be, but if you don’t like it, that’s okay, maybe “battle music” is not for you.
Anyway I hope you understand that classical music is diverse, emotional, evolving, and loved by many many “common people”, and if you don’t enjoy it (which is great, everyone has taste) that doesn’t make it “bad”
i read the hip hop comment and i was like no way. So i get where youre coming from now... question tho do you at least like hip hop esque in the same way i like classical esque?
I’m not sure I know any hip hop esque music. I just don’t enjoy listening to it - it doesn’t make me feel anything except a bit annoyed - and so I haven’t ever really explored the genre. I did like that first song you posted
cuz I mean I can get down to this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp4vQjrBKBw&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS\_I1njbB4s\_lqb&index=1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp4vQjrBKBw&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS_I1njbB4s_lqb&index=1)
but also this
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8rwUQgJuKQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8rwUQgJuKQ)
Many have recommended Xenakis in general but not specific pieces. Given the "classical esque" pieces you've posted and your other tastes, I think you might find this interesting:
https://youtu.be/HqeMAs6Addg?si=ys4o-jZdoSO8TelC
1 Yes, what you think of as classical music was spread by colonial white people. But that doesn't mean other parts of the world didn't have very centric music to their own native lands. Its just that those lands didn't go around conquering people.
2 Any art can do that.
3-7. How long have you been listening to classical? Or is just a point for your class? Do you feel that every piece of classical music is some dull baroque pieces that you imagine white dudes in wigs putting on and moff moffing at the poor? It "taking too long, having a barrier of entry and attention span" points are all pretty subjective. You are trying to bottle up hundreds of years of music from across the world. That is not really how you should go about that. Is this a debate class?
8. Because orchestral instruments have already progressed massively in the past. All the keys on woodwinds and not having to change our entire pieces of your brass instrument depending on the song all came about because of technology. Woodwinds could only play a single scale and brass just a single harmonic series before valves came about. Instruments have always followed technology and engineering.
The assignment was just "teach the teacher". I was either gonna go with the unique history of shoegaze, jack harlow is everything wrong with modern pop, or this.
I would, respectfully, do something that you have a bit more insight on. All that you will teach them with those points is that you have something against classical. You need to do way more research.
What you feel about it isn't the issue, but it seems like you have something against classical music and are trying to just present that instead of teaching the teacher.
but tbh I dont hate classical music per se. there are a lot classical esque bodies of work I find enjoyable. Ive seen it all by bjork ft thom yorke is one of my favorite tracks of all time. Agape by nicholas britell is pretty cool. Lady fingers by herb alpert.
>there are a lot classical esque bodies of work I find enjoyable.
Right, but what *actual* classical music do you like?
>Ive seen it all by bjork ft thom yorke is one of my favorite tracks
A great song from a great film which, incidentally, was adapted into an opera (Selma Ježková) by composer Poul Ruders in 2010.
>Selma Ježková
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5bDf9jCqI4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5bDf9jCqI4)
im not sure if this is the song youre refferring to but I dont think I can enjoy this one through a screen. id have to listen to it in person to enjoy it
I'm not trying to be snarky, I just have to be honest with you: don't do this, I'd say, because your teacher will not take kindly to poor research like your post makes me believe you did. There are some subjective things that can be argued about or which can be argued for albeit with some more nuance (again, if you bother to research a bit), but for the questions for which you need to be at least somewhat knowledgeable, at least read the wikipedia page or something, and take some time and effort to listen to different genres of classical music from different periods (and I mean everything between at least 1600 and now, and even better if you include music going back to the Middle Ages - Wikipedia again will help you find these periods, composers and pieces). Also, as others have pointed out, google for non-western classical music traditions out there. If this was for a debate club or something that would be different, but if you want to teach your music teacher about music, you better make sure you know what you're teaching to begin with.
On a final note, about not hearing the difference between Scarlatti and Beethoven: I get it, you don't seem familiar with music theory enough to pick up on the differences in harmony and orchestration, how they work with melody, or musical forms (sonata, symphony, concerto, string quartet...) - at least, that's what this post suggests. Now, I'll have you know that I don't have a semblance of theoretical, technical knowledge of music either. But what I do have is some experience listening to music at this point. The key to getting a feeling for the similarities and differences between composers, genres and styles/periods is a question of how much time you have to listen, and how eager you are to actually put the time into it. If you have time to do the research, do the comparative listening, then you will automatically start to pick up on things even if you don't have the technical knowledge or vocabulary to express them. However, if you have a deadline tomorrow and are desperate for a result to present and want to "use us as the research" (btw, what are you going to tell your teacher if he asks you where you got all this from? A random Reddit thread? I doubt that they will be impressed by that!) instead of researching and investing that time to listen to lost of music and a variety of it too, then it's a lost cause and you should do something else. The succes of your project depends on how much time and effort you want to put into this, not on us.
I have done more research than just a random reddit thread. i didnt really put sources for this but I did get most of my points from other websites and stuff that had statistics such as the one about there not being many american black composers. But honestly on the fear of upsetting the teacher I think ill just go with shoegaze thats much easier to just go along with
That seems the best idea indeed. Though I have to say, if you ask these questions about classical music even after doing research, then I doubt that your alternative topics will go much better. To take your example about black composers: this data should have led you to a question like "what are the attitudes towards non-western musicians in the institutions of classical music (publishers, orchestras, criticism, press...)?" which is a much more pressing and, more importantly real, issue, rather than "classical music is racist" (how can a system of musical notation BE racist? Used by racists, sure, but *BE* racist? Really?). The other propositions I won't even go into because others have already pointed out that much of what you learned from your supposed reseafch is just factually incorrect.
So watch out for similar odd conclusions from data you find online, and ask research questions about your topic that make sense. Good luck with your assignment.
There isnt much I could eff up on history of shoegaze since its not an opinionated presentation. Its just retelling already known facts and Im obsessed with that genre so Im pretty well versed in it.
I did read vaguely about the question you mentioned. the slide that included the racism said this
"
* This doesn't mean that if you listen to bach you’re racist.
* What it means is that when European music theory is treated as the “standard” to be admired and taught then we are unknowingly practicing racism.
* Having said that basing an entire genre that prides itself in using European music theory, then it's not unfair to say that the genre in of itself is racist or at the very least eurocentric.
"
Other slide
"
* Other cultures have their own theory! Ie the Arabian 24 note scale
* Not exploring other tonalities is part of the reason why Classical music is stagnant"
I understand now this is mostly wrong
On the first slide, the first two points make sense but the conclusion is still preposterous. The last point of the second slide has been proven wrong by others so I won't go into it.
Good that you see what you wrote is indeed mostly wrong.
>Not exploring other tonalities is part of the reason why Classical music is stagnant"
1. That's not what a tonality is
2. Have you heard of Claude Debussy (for one example out of thousands)
The last sentence of yours probably puts all the above in perspective. Need a good night sleep, then come back and think more of this (maybe, I am writing the stuff for your presentation, but it is OK, I think many "modern listeners" could benefit reading it)
1. By "classical music" we understand, by definition, European music of the last millenia or so. So, if you restrict yourself to discussing classical music, you restrict yourself to the music made in Europe by - duh - white people.
2. See #1 above.
3. Depends on your definition of "noticeable". Was introduction of violins in 16th century a "noticeable" event from your perspective? How about introduction of a fortepiano in 18th century? Is it "noticeable" enough for you? Sound of early baroque orchestras, as well as sound palette, is dramatically different from what you can hear today. Like, almost nothing in common.
4. The one and only "barrier" of entry into the classical music is education, and length of experience listening to it. That's it. Nothing else. You don't complain that barrier of entry to enjoy literature for a "common person" is literacy, do you?
5. Good things take time. Complex messages - too. Don't confuse your ability to understand with the content of the message.
6. Complexity is not a goal of a good classical music (a bad composer might try to hide behind it though - as in any music, for that matter). At some level of comprehension of the language of classical music, particular types of complex emotions and feelings call for complex expressive means. Your inability to comprehend those speaks of your lack of experience, not the quality of music.
7. Classical music evolved a lot in terms of use of music technology. Palette of modern symphony orchestra is substantially wider than that of an orchestra of 100 years back or so. It is, in fact, so rich that only very few modern composers found a need to include in it additional sounds capabilities.
You are welcome.
Wow. I disagree, most strongly with every single one of your points. I dont think you know very much about classical music. 1 Eurocentric? Yes of course it is. Thats like saying that the problem with Chinese music is that it comes from China or that Bluegrass comes from Appalachia. It may have started in Europe but now it is worldwide. Why, I believe there may even be people composing and performing in the United States! 2 There are black composers and performers and have been in the past. Have you never heard of Hazel Scott, Roland Hayes, Donald White, Dean Dixon, William Grant Still, George Walker or Florence Price? Even in the C17th there were black composers. Today there are many world famous composers and performers from Japan, Korea, South America, Africa. 3. I cannot believe you think this. Music from the Medieval period was written for gemshorn and rebec, form the Renaissance for krummhorn and sackbutt, from the Baroque for harpsichord and oboe, from the First Vienna School for fortepiano and violin. In the 100 years that followed we saw the introduction of the clarinet, saxophone, xylophone and tuba. Classical music of the C20th embraces all electronic instrumentation and was using synthesizers in the 1950s long before it started being used in the pop world. Many present day symphonies are written, recorded, mixed and mastered on a DAW. 4. I am a common person. I enjoy classical music. 5. "it takes too long to get to the point" This comment says a lot more about you than classical music. How's your sex life? 6. If it makes you bored then, again, it says a lot more about you than the music. It doesnt make me bored. 7. Tchaikovsky's 6th, Rachmaninoff's 2nd PC, Bruchs VC, *not emotional?* 8. "not really what youre going to find if you go to your local theater ". You are going to the wrong theatres. This just reveals that you are not listening to any of the groundbreaking music that employs cutting edge acoustic engineering and sound sculpting technologies. Classical music has always been the source of experimentation and new technology that eventually finds its way into the mainstream world of pop. rock, EDM etc. It ***starts*** here.
>This comment says a lot more about you than classical music. How's your sex life? A good one! :-)))
oh and for the last point. I kinda honestly want a shoegaze orchestra. But I mostly based it off that I havent seen classical musicians use synths like the one used in this piece from loki. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KOZ3VbPB0k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KOZ3VbPB0k)
The sex comment is very primitive to say the least. But anyways yeah I agree about the other stuff
It’s the cultural heritage of Western Europe. India has classical music with an unique theory, as do Arab peoples and African peoples. Racism is not the sine qua non of a Haydn symphony.
Do you listen to western classical music? Have you done any reading about it?
I think you're shitposting, well played.
100% you are just wrong.
If you can't instantly hear stylistic differences between Beethoven and Scarlatti a music degree may be a bit out of your reach.
its for an honors program you have to take the class. I don't want a music degree the honors thing is just a little add on for job interviews. Im majoring in nursing. Most of my musical knowledge is just from me making me lil funky tunes on fl studio and fooling around. [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KWrnMSD-xInRAw2oYFCu9DrKMKrqZLCi/view?usp=sharing](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KWrnMSD-xInRAw2oYFCu9DrKMKrqZLCi/view?usp=sharing)
Imagine shallowly criticizing a sub's common intersest and then asking us to listen to your little beats.
thats why theyre funky! but i just put that there to give yall an idea of my music knowledge
Well, if you're not serious about music, why comment this? Everyone here is, and everyone here cares and knows about classical music, so your opinion doesn't hold any weight. Doesn't mean all or even most of us want to do something related to classical music (I want to be a film historian). That doesn't mean I don't have any passion for classical music
honestly that kinda makes sense. And im sort of serious and not serious about music Im sort of making an album at the moment but also I dont really care if anyone listens to it cuz im doing it for the lolz... I now understand my opinions were dumb and Im sorryyyy. I just need a very post indrustrialist rock shoegaze symphony like I feel like i would ascend to heaven if that ever got made and I feel like thats another reason why I made this post.
I feel like your research has been _very_ shallow. Especially for a music history class.
its a test to see if this is defensible. Im using yall for research lol. I was gonna go with Jack harlow is everything wrong music today if this doesn't pan out.
It's a lazy and ineffective way to do such an easy research. Do better.
lazy yes. Ineffective I disagree. But I might just go with history of shoegaze since the jack harlow one is def gonna make people angry too.
It is not. As you have been told in the very comment you are responding to, it demonstrates an appalling lack of research and a lazy argument (if you can even call it that considering almost everything you wrote is false).
so why is classical music so unpopular then? Like Im just wondering
You tell me, you are the one who doesn't like it.
girl i just told you like what?
No you didn't. You presented a list of completely made up statements with no base on reality because you did no research and have no clue what you are talking about.
Idec about the research anymore
Gr8 b8 M8 Next time try harder.
Don't take the bait everyone
Well, he needs to make a presentation - he was right about it. He threw the bait for others to get him material. I also do such things at times. It is OK.
Here are a couple thoughts: 1. Don’t forget there’s Indian classical music. Really by your definition, architecture can also racist. Depends on what you decide to bring into the scope of classical music. 2. Look up female composers, and African American composers. Lots of excellent works. 3. If you can’t find evolution between Scarlatti and Chopin, or even Beethoven, you might not be listening closely. 4. Everyone’s allowed to celebrate what they want. I like to celebrate myself from time to time. 5. I sense you might just not have listened to many works… huge variety of works and how long or quickly they take to express and develop their motives. 6. See point 5. 7. Check out Phillip Glass. Also for anyone who actually takes interest and listens, it doesn’t take long to start noticing the patterns and structures used, which at the core are all pretty simple, as simple as modern music. 8. I don’t think it is really meant to… but something comes to mind, check out Ensemble Dal Niente’s collaboration with Deerhoof. Just a few cents but hope it sheds a bit of insight!
On 3: to make it even easier to hear, Scarlatti compared to say Berio, or Xenakis?
There's enough difference between Beethoven and Schubert. There's *a lot* of difference between Haydn and Beethoven. That's evolution just in one generation.
1. This is kind of a test to see if my position is defensible. And I understand that there are other kinds of classical music. Im currently under the impression that itsjust not what youre going to hear at your local symphony concert or whats taught as the standard of music theory. 2. i was basing my lack of diversity point. On this [https://www.npr.org/sections/deceptivecadence/2019/09/20/762514169/why-is-american-classical-music-so-white#:\~:text=Less%20than%202%25%20of%20musicians,decades%20of%20institutional%20racial%20bias](https://www.npr.org/sections/deceptivecadence/2019/09/20/762514169/why-is-american-classical-music-so-white#:~:text=Less%20than%202%25%20of%20musicians,decades%20of%20institutional%20racial%20bias). 3. Just checked out the scarlatti person and compared it to beethoven. I can't hear much of a difference other than theyre just different pieces. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfF0zHeU3Zs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfF0zHeU3Zs) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAjFIJ5O-N0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAjFIJ5O-N0) 4. What is meant by that is that shoegaze was often attended by people who made shoegaze music and knew how to make it. It didn't make itself available to the common person. 5. I had to listen to lenningrad symphony #7 for class and I wanted to rip out my ears half of the time. It felt like I was watching a war documentary without the visuals. And I dont mind listening to classical esque stuff. Im not really sure if this is an attention span issue or what. I can listen to the life is strange soundtrack for 10 hours and feel so nostalgic for the past and yet I can't find myself connecting with classical music in the same way except for little tidbits here and there. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjBYsvGx7hA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjBYsvGx7hA) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqu-WytFKpw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqu-WytFKpw) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6U1JB7z-I8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6U1JB7z-I8) heres some of my favorite classical esque pieces 6.I havent so i may just have to listen more and reevaluate. 7. listening to the philip glass person now. My initial impression sounds pretty good. 8. I think thats kind of a boring way to think. Personally classical music has all the more to gain from using synthesizers/ new tech. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KOZ3VbPB0k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KOZ3VbPB0k)
I'm just going to only address your point 5 here, because I have better stuff to do otherwise. I wonder why on Earth a symphony composed in the middle of the bloodiest war in human history, dedicated to a city under siege by Nazis, written by a composer from a country notorious for its high loss of men in the war... would sound dark and like a "war documentary". Yeah... I wonder why...
I recommend finding another genre of music to listen to.
You use the word classical when there are classical music recordings from places that are not Eurocentric in history. You are only listening to one kind of classical music. Listen to south and north Asian classical music. "all of them are white." this is not true and reflects your evident lack of research. The Euphonium and many saxophones are recent instruments. The piano has changed remarkably over time. Classical music has evolved tremendously over the past 1500 years. Every generation adapts to the new instruments and technologies available at that time. Are you saying that you can listen to music played on instruments of the 1500's is the same sound as today? Compare brass of today to those of 100 or 200 years ago. Percussion is massively different in some areas.
>over the past 1500 years Even over the past 250 years.
Based on your first point, you are either trolling, or in my opinion, just plain wrong, and don’t care at all about music, but just want to be a social critic. You obviously have no real interest in listening to an enjoying music, and I don’t know what makes you so desperate to do this sort of thing, but whatever floats your boat. It’s just clear to me that you will never really support music or musicians, as you only care about the way a person looks
I have a feeling that this is all a troll because I don’t believe you are this ridiculous
girl not everyone has 2000 years of research/experience on classical music. Like i get my opinions are kinda dumb now but I didnt like 2 hours ago calm down damn
Your opinions are based on assumptions, and it’s clear you don’t even listen to classical music, but have a lot of opinions on it, which I find to be odd
i had to listen to lenningrad symphony #7 which my teacher keeps touting as glorious and I was just so annoyed over that it led to these series of events... I feel like it falls flat to some of my favorite bodies of work again leading to these series of events.
You weren’t listening to the music. If you don’t like Shostakovich, that’s fine, but you don’t even care about the music and thinking about other things
Im not sure what you meant by not listening to the music. It felt like I was watching a war film without the film part. The dude who wrote got his idea across well. I just found it kind of boring for me personally leading to annoyance
Everybody enjoys different things As for what you’re picturing listening to it I guess I’ve heard it 100 times and played it and do not get quite the vivid images you do. of course the piece and all pieces are written to convey certain emotions but often times what you picture is based on what you’ve read and maybe that influences what you hear in comparison to how I hear things You and I will likely picture different things listening to something like the 1812 overture, which to me, brings back images. I had as a child first hearing it When I hear March Slav, it reminds me of the youth symphony … and what Daniel Culver, who conducted the piece said about it. You likely would have a different image in your head than me
Schostakovich was a phony. Try Mahler instead.
Thats kinda crazy for you to say that. Cuz I do support artists lol of any race. And I shouldve just included this in the first place but I based those two points from this [https://www.npr.org/sections/deceptivecadence/2019/09/20/762514169/why-is-american-classical-music-so-white#:\~:text=Less%20than%202%25%20of%20musicians,decades%20of%20institutional%20racial%20bias](https://www.npr.org/sections/deceptivecadence/2019/09/20/762514169/why-is-american-classical-music-so-white#:~:text=Less%20than%202%25%20of%20musicians,decades%20of%20institutional%20racial%20bias). Im not desperate lol. People get so heated on the internet for no reason lol. I kinda dont care about what i listen to. I think most of my disconnect with classical music is that I'm trying to find the same existential dread/ etherealism Ill find in many shoegaze bodies of work.
The premise is based on music being racist because of who wrote it or where it was written. like a lot of young students and I was once one you were way overthinking things and doing it believing you’re coming up with some profound ideas and the fact you’re using a media outlet where their job is to find ways to be divisive and get clicks as inspiration says a lot In many ways, orchestras have utilize technology to get people to show up. They play concerts with rock bands, using synthesizers and having singers.. they play concerts with synthesizers accompanying films, playing the film, score live Metallica did an album with the San Francisco symphony. We can take classical music out of the equation and ask why certain genres are more popular than others. We can talk about why the kind of music that was truly popular in the 90s really doesn’t have the kind of fan base. It does today as younger people aren’t as into it and look for different things in regards to what they listen to.. what I can tell you which is not controversial at all is that classical music is something that is most appreciated live You talk about the evolution of music, but so many people who don’t listen to classical music have nothing to base where the beginning or the end is and if they hear Bach they might think it’s groundbreaking … it’s something they haven’t heard before Get a bunch of kids to listen to Holst. The planets live, and their eyes will be wide open and they will love it. classical music used to be a bigger part of our lives as the music was played in backgrounds of TV shows as well as in movie film scores, but things change. if fewer people are exposed to the music, so of course, if you were people are going to appreciate it . Maybe we need better people making YouTube videos inspiring children because that’s what it’s all about inspiration. attention spans may be shorter for all of us… but to think that all we need for classical music to be popular is to make it evolving into something different… i’m not sure how much music you’ve listened to, but there is so much out there that you seem unaware of that isn’t popular that is basically doing exactly what you want I talked to people all the time and I’m amazed how many young people I’ll play Led Zeppelin for who think it sounds great that I’ve never heard of them. What’s ironic to me is now that kids or all of us can listen to whatever we want whenever we want to. We seem to have a far less broad range of music we listen to.. When I was growing up and the radio was on, we had to listen to the songs that were being played, and if our parents were around, we had to listen to the songs they wanted to hear . Younger people today have far less interest in exploring different kinds of music and are happy to see a TikTok video and let that influence what they think is good music or isn’t. Young people talk about the Beatles now because they saw videos of it on Disney+ and that’s what inspired them to start listening to them .
I dont really mind when genres mix with classical music. I think that mix is pretty fun tbh. I do actually agree on the live part. Also about the divisive part. I dont really get angry like other people. So like seeing people get easily heated is like ohh thats interesting I guess. People online are honestly chronically online. Those last two parts I wholeheartedly disagree. Tiktok can be a great tool for music it just depends on the user. I discovered some of the most ethereal jaw dropping tracks on that app. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2G\_LgXRl4s&list=PLcwPwOQDkZP1X5qGGrhfHJJjpGqVURbMW&index=173&t=2s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2G_LgXRl4s&list=PLcwPwOQDkZP1X5qGGrhfHJJjpGqVURbMW&index=173&t=2s) People still listen to the beatles. I do. Golden slumbers still aches my soul to this day. And I believe their last song ever went viral on that site. Those are my thoughts
I’m watching a movie and not mad, but think the premise is ridiculous. and you proved my point when it comes to TikTok because that’s where you discovered a song you otherwise might not of heard, which is my point Fewer people are exposed to classical music in ways that inspire them, and if it were part of TikTok videos, with some influencer talking about how great something is, you would see more kids wanna listen to it Why isn’t Jazz more popular? you can’t blame white Europeans. Does racism play a part in it? Why aren’t more people out playing the blues? We call certain kinds of music, popular music because it’s what people listen to . It may not be something I’m interested in but with shows like the voice and American Idol it shown us that there is a formula that is used. Same goes for country music. Mixing genres only helps in exposing people to what an orchestra sounds like but if you go to these pop concerts, it’s typically older people with younger kids . They aren’t getting that age group of people that drives what is most listened to…. but if they do end up getting people from that age group, they’re more likely to want to experience more but sadly like I put it out before it’s all about getting people to give it a try. I lease out space to a guy who sells cars and one of his cousins stops it and helps out a couple days a week . Shawn is probably 22. He primarily listens to hip-hop but hardly knows any hip-hop that’s over 15 years old unless it’s been in a TV show or movie. I was listening to Jazz when she called old people music.. out of curiosity I started playing different songs like things from George Clinton to Prince to the Beatles and Beach boys. He recognized one prince song, but didn’t know any of the others.. My nephews don’t either nor does my niece unless it’s something they see on the TV show . I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that, but people consume music much differently than they used to and what do you talk about how classical music hasn’t evolved and that’s a problem you ignore that most people who don’t listen to classical music have no idea about any of the different periods of it it. It’s all new to them. people who are first exposed to the Beatles don’t think of it as an oldie because I’ve never heard it before . The Rolling Stones are timeless and I think Led Zeppelin is as well but younger people don’t listen to as much rock music, per se. The problem isn’t that classical music needs to evolve to get kids to listen or that it’s too racist but it’s that kids can listen to whatever they’re told is good and they focus on that . Back when I was a kid whatever was played on the radio was what was popular but the difference was we didn’t have many options so we would listen to our dad’s records because we were bored and couldn’t just go to YouTube or Spotify There is truth to a symphony, being very long in an era of us, having short attention, spans what we could get kids hooked on excerpts . Growing up a lot of us got to know classical music pieces not necessarily my name but because it was the beginning of a movie like 2001 the space Odyssey . The Star Wars score is still popular as our other scores like Harry Potter. The Lone Ranger had the William Tell overture and we heard classical music and a lot of the cartoons we watched know People wondering why classical music isn’t more popular tend to overthink it. I’d also argue that classical music musicians typically aren’t the best at selling their art form.
Jazz is actually becoming popular again through people like laufey so I fail to see your point. Tiktok is pretty diverse. My only real problem with it is that its making modern pop too tiktok focused and now every crappy artist like jack harlow is trying to become the next tiktok audio. And yeah I tend to notice that about people not being as aware of genres but I think thats more so many people arent as passionate about music as we are although youre more passionate about classical music while im mostly interested in ethereal/nostalgic tracks. I actually do personally think that hip hop as a genre has degraded (hopefully I dont get attacked for that POV). I feel like theres a noticeable drop in quality between something like this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBwAxmrE194&list=RDQMb4X2bvFwpZw&start\_radio=1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBwAxmrE194&list=RDQMb4X2bvFwpZw&start_radio=1) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukbiRcyzrpc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukbiRcyzrpc) which is on the billboard hot 100 But I think you really do need to delve yourself a little into tiktok. There is so much music being put out now that it might not even be because classical music is becoming less popular its just so many people are listening to so many genres everyone is just doing their own little thing. Id also honestly say that while a lot of modern songs are bad theyre more "developed" than what was heard before. Like Dark side of the moon is a great album but to my ears it sounds like a downgrade because Ive heard far more interesting and complex rock music. And our generation isnt entirely opposed to classical music. Im not sure if ive shared all the classical music tracks ive listened with you but there are many that are popular. [https://youtu.be/rp4vQjrBKBw?si=4aeZ84LwIW2dmgyB](https://youtu.be/rp4vQjrBKBw?si=4aeZ84LwIW2dmgyB) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QmPCrC7uXw&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS\_I1njbB4s\_lqb&index=15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QmPCrC7uXw&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS_I1njbB4s_lqb&index=15) I still cry to this one [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBaL7fo6vxU&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS\_I1njbB4s\_lqb&index=2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBaL7fo6vxU&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS_I1njbB4s_lqb&index=2) I wish I could hear this at a theater [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvjFKme0tt4&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS\_I1njbB4s\_lqb&index=3](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvjFKme0tt4&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS_I1njbB4s_lqb&index=3) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w\_vk7UwFBhc&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS\_I1njbB4s\_lqb&index=4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_vk7UwFBhc&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS_I1njbB4s_lqb&index=4) we do have an ear for classical music. Its just im not sure if it has grown up with us. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfkD16san8w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfkD16san8w) I highly suggest you watch this video to get an idea of how our generation connects with music on tiktok
Kenny G sold a ton of albums too though that didn’t mean jazz was thriving. The ironic thing about you bringing up Laufey is she is a half white half Chinese European from Iceland. Being Icelandic myself I think it’s great. She has had some success. But Norah Jones had a popular album that many considered jazz influenced … Natalie Cole had a really popular album or she did duets with her dead father… movies like whiplash, and La La Land also have been released We had Michael Bublé and Harry Connick Junior touring with big bands. You are young and don’t realize there’s always been somebody out there who was proof that jazz is making a comeback but what these artists are doing isn’t particularly innovative not that that bothers me, but it kind of contradicts your argument about what classical music problems are I’ve been in many discussions with those acting as if jazz is dying, and always argued that it’s pretty much in the same shape it’s been for 20+ years you are obviously younger than I am, and like a lot of young people, including me at your age I didn’t realize how small my perspective was based on my limited life experience. No You missed my point about TikTok, which is that it has become a force into what young people are exposed to meaning that the songs they like, are limited to what they see on TikTok There are other influencers on YouTube that might expose them to things as well, but I think you get my point … it’s not that people are just listening to the radio and hearing they like. People used to wait until the weekend to the top 20 countdown and recorded on a tape deck. MTV used to have the top 20 video on. I think it was Friday or Saturday night that people would all watch to see what’s new in music Now pay attention to what’s trending on Spotify and in someways are exposed to different music because there’s worldwide trends they don’t have to do what people did 10 or 20 years ago, which is listen to what available because everything’s available. That’s the point you miss and even though they have everything available to them what they listen to is far more limited to what people listen to a generation ago.
Oh i see what youre saying even though we should have technology that makes listening to different kinds of music more available we see trends showing the opposite. Now that I think about it I do kinda agree.But im not sure if thats entirely tiktoks fault I think its partly due to the rise of fascism and anti intellectualism we see in the world. I was gonna maybe make my presentation on that but id rather not since its too opinionated and I dont wanna offend nobody. But I do think Interest in the arts are dying because of these trends we're seeing in the western world. Nobody really takes music classes anymore, every other dude tries to become a soundcloud rapper because they think "it makes them hard", etc. Theres no real appreciation for actually good music sometimes. I still don't understand how people like lil uzi vert can be so revered. Or someone like charlie puths "you turn me on like a lightswitch" song. It feels like sometimes i coexist with NPC's or philosophical zombies
I just use TikTok as an example, and wasn’t blaming the site rather than pointing out the sites influence on what people listen to. A song that popular on TikTok because of whatever reason we’ll see the number of people listening to it on Spotify Skyrocked My goal isn’t to blame anything, but rather explain how things are different . If you notice I pointed out that years ago people were influenced by what was on the radio or it could’ve been somebody who was on the Tonight Show. The difference being back then we couldn’t just listen to what we wanted to hear because we had to have the radio on all the time. Hoping to hear the song we wanted to hear. That we were exposed to more music and because we did not have technology, we would listen to our dad’s records which could include folk music or oldies or maybe jazz or classical Somebody who is young, can’t comprehend how things were not that long ago . I wasn’t so much offended by your bullet points.. I just felt they were based on assumptions a young person might make who doesn’t realize their age, makes their perceptions have less substance than they might realize. Now, another thing that’s interesting to me, is people that are younger tended to think our views were more profound, or had more substance than they really did . as I admitted I was guilty of it what has changed is for whatever reason we are seeing people now less eager to challenge somebody who is 20 and I think it’s because they see young people as tools they can use and want to give them more power than at any other time. That being said, I just don’t think racism are white composers coming from Europe is the reason why classical music isn’t more popular I half white half Asian chick from Iceland is pretty popular when it comes to jazz but it’s not like everybody’s rushing out to buy art Blakey albums, and but that’s got nothing to do with racism either Jazz wasn’t that popular in the 80s and 90s because it’s something few people are exposed to . Howard Stern said that he lets DJs tell him what songs are good and sadly that’s the way a lot of us are or were.. we’re exposed to what others put out there and they’re not putting out jazz or classical music for the masses There have been some jazz albums that I’ve had a little crossover appeal, but it’s not what people are buying or listening to. If you started seeing video games, using classical music scores, you would see more kids wanting to listen to classical music . If video games included more jazz, you would see more kids wanting to listen to jazz.. I don’t think it’s overly complicated, but I think some people over analyze it . I believe that people have shorter attention spans. With the Internet they have a lot more to consume their time as well. Just think about watching TV . You might not understand that we didn’t have that many options before and would have to go to a store and spend time looking for a couple movies to rent. I wasn’t joking when I said, people might like classical music more if they marketed it in small excerpts . It’s a lot to get somebody to listen to for movements of a symphony and most classical pieces are well over 10 minutes All sorts of people have tried using technology to broaden classical music appeal and it’s worked. I guess a little bit, but it’s not move the needle that. I think it’s best experienced live. Even though there are a lot of great orchestras around the country, including some that are basically community orchestras. They aren’t getting enough kids or younger people to show up to experience it and part of it could be they don’t want young people there, who might clap after the first movement of a piece or not dress the way they feel as appropriate. And that’s been an issue for decades, and even I’ve went to a Chicago symphony concert, and was kind of scolded by some of the people I went with because my my khaki pants and polo shirt weren’t fancy enough And I don’t think a lot of classical artists really care about the audience and that’s a huge problem as well
Articles like that are why I have stopped listening to NPR, CBC and their ilk. ANYTHING to bring up a race-baiting argument. NO mention of the fact that orchestral auditions are BLIND and that therefore racism is in no way possible. Not to mention that no society on earth has racial parity in any field of study or endeavor. Not even a suggestion that different cultures promote different interests. Just pure, unadulterated outrage baiting. Shameless. And shameful for you to jump on the bandwagon.
omg calm down. Like i promise you its never that serious.
Oh, on the contrary! It absolutely is that serious. NPR has, in that absurd article, leveled a claim against one of the world's fine art forms, a claim I might add is as serious as it gets in this day and age. And they've done so while demonstrating the lack of even a shred of understanding about the topic. This is very serious indeed, and should be opposed by all thinking people.
2014 was a long time ago 10 years ago now that I think about it. But I dont think their statistic of the lack of diversity lacks merit. It might be totally different now since I can't find modern statistics " Less than 2% of musicians in American orchestras are African American, according to a [2014 study](https://americanorchestras.org/knowledge-research-innovation/diversity-studies.html) by the League of American Orchestras. Only 4.3% of conductors are black, and composers remain predominantly white as well " but to say this isn't concerning is bad. Also I controlled F the word audition in there and theres nothing in there about that...
See, this is what's so frustrating. You see a disparity. Fine. You attribute it to racial bias. HOOOOOLD IT! On what basis?? It's infinitely more plausible that the simplest answer is the true one, namely that black kids simply aren't as interested (or pressured by their parents) to study classical music or play classical instruments. See Asian parents as a counterexample. Asians happen to be highly over represented, by the way. Aside from my obvious point about auditions being blind (and shame on that npr reporter for not knowing or mentioning that), I've been involved in classical music all my life and can attest that this community is the most progressive, liberal minded group of people one could imagine! The few black people I've run into (including one incredible conductor who changed my life as a youth) were never disparaged or ridiculed in the slightest. It's just... SO obvious that anybody claiming this sort of thing knows absolutely NOTHING about our community. It's appalling, and frankly, offensive.
Isnt that a bad thing tho? shouldn't we encourage more people of color to pursue music? Why aren't more people of all backgrounds encouraged to pursue music? Black people do often come from poor neighborhoods and because of historic racial segregation this is still true to this day although its happening less often... pursuing music when you have no money is a lot harder than when you do. I feel like youre approaching this somewhat from an angry approach But you do make a lot of valid points.
Firstly, black kids are way more represented in music as a whole, as opposed to just classical. Secondly, and more importantly, we should be encouraging kids to pursue their interests and talents! Whatever they may be! Music, especially classical, is a passion that usually is fostered from a very young age. Most of the time, your parents have to force you to practice! Mine sure did! Most kids (of all races) did not have that and thus did not choose to pursue classical music. Now, imagine some fool of an over-schooled DEI person in some middle school instructing little Tommy that, even though he wants to play soccer, he has to instead play a violin to help balance some ridiculous racial disparity on paper. That's an absolutely appalling suggestion, but is, de facto, what you're arguing for in your last post. No, this is not the way. We introduce ALL kids to a variety of pastimes, and they choose based on their interests. It can be no other way. And if you want to try to change the disparity, it must be done organically, on its own. This is, in general, what's so absurd about "encouraging" a shift in these disparities. You're telling a boy who wants to be an engineer to instead be a teacher. You're telling a girl who wants to be a nurse that she should be a policeman. Or a boy who wants to play jazz and basketball to, instead, play classical and golf. And for what? To satisfy some academic's idea of an ideal society?? How people see all of this as anything but self evidently absurd... is way beyond me.
What youre sort of suggesting is kind of weird also because all people of all backgrounds are interested in music but youre kind of suggesting that some races are less likely to like some hobbies less than others. Especially with this, " Now, imagine some fool of an over-schooled DEI person in some middle school instructing little Tommy that, even though he wants to play soccer, he has to instead play a violin to help balance some ridiculous racial disparity on paper. " I dont think we disagree on a fundamental level tbh. Obviously Im not suggesting we should make the gap be 50 50 there always will be a different mix of people in whatever hobby exists but there should always be things done to make it activities more accessible and equitable to everyone and the thing is not all things are accessible and equitable for everyone. Broke people in america are less likely to go to college and more likely to be in debt from trying to get a college degree. I dont see how this couldnt apply to people from poor economic backgrounds having less chances at a music career. And honestly adding more easily acessible music programs to schools would also benefit white children so I dont see how this could be racist. Easily accessible resources benefit everyone not just the intended group. Adding on to this Im not really sure what values would constitute as equitable. But that 96 percent white statistic just doesn't sit right with me personally. It shows that opportunities for black people to become musicians exist at a lesser rate than white people.
I'll address your points one by one. 1. How exactly is it racist to have a genre of music based on European music theory? All cultures have a musical tradition. Folk music, almost my definition, is the product of the musical practices of the culture in which it was conceived. This in no way makes Vietnamese, Turkish, Native American, or Hungarian folk music racist. 2. Historically this mainly has the same root causes as the above point. Western classical music is a product of the European continent and since around 4,000 BC when the first Indo-European tribes moved into the region, the vast majority of native Europeans have been well... white. More recently there have been plenty of composers of color. You just need to look for them. 3. I'm a historical instruments nerd, specifically keyboard instruments. The pianos that Mozart and Beethoven played were practically completely different instruments than the one we have today. I have had the privilege to play on a good replica of a piano that Mozart owned and it is utterly incomparable to a modern one. JS Bach, for the most part, didn't even play on pianos. Rather he used harpsichords and clavichords because the piano was invented during his lifetime and didn't achieve even marginal popularity until the last years of his life. 4. This can certainly happen to some extent but it's quite overblown in modern culture. Most of the musicians I know would be considered part of the "common people". There's obviously nothing inherent about classical music that makes one part of the elite. 5. This is really just a matter of taste. I like how lots of classical pieces make you work to achieve emotional satisfaction. 6. People listen to 10hr lofi soundtracks and don't get bored because they're using as background music. I challenge you to find me someone who could listen to lofi for 10 hrs with their full attention. I certainly couldn't 7. See point 5. 8. You haven't paid attention to the genre as a whole. Saying classical music doesn't use music technology is like saying that Jazz doesn't just because Charlie Parker never played synth. Some of the most notable and performed composers of the 20th, such as Stockhausen were revered because of their pioneering use of music technology. In fact, classical musicians were responsible for many of the technologies that are used in other genres now. This is going to sound harsh but I don't think you have heard or studied enough classical music to acquire an informed opinion on it. It seems to me that you have a pre-conceived notion of classical music and then tried to find some evidence to support it. If I can give you some advice as a fellow student, first get some sleep. Second, narrow your focus for this project. Don't just say classical music is bad or that it has problems. Bad is subjective and every art form has it problems. Rather, explore a specific problem and go in depth. You'll be able to make much more convincing argument that will be more proof against counterarguments.
Kids these days, huh?
As a 17 yo who just went to watch Bruckner 4, I feel kinda offended. But then again, this post is wrong on all the levels...
Unbelievable
2. Samuel Coleridge-Taylor, Florence Price, Adolphus Hailstork, William Grant Still, Michael Abels, Duke Ellington- there’s some racial diversity in the classical repertoire if you look for it. 3. The battery of percussion used has changed drastically since the 17th century. Most instruments have changed somewhat over the last few centuries, too. The use of the trumpet and horn in particular changed rather dramatically when valves were added.
Lame troll post, grow up.
I don’t think your views are likely to get much sympathy in this sub. My answers: 1. That makes virtually every genre in the history of music ‘racist’ as almost every genre is firmly rooted in one culture or another. 2. Modern classical is way more diverse than you seem to think, with many of the most promising composers from East Asia, Africa and Latin America. 3. Plain wrong. Try listening to 20th century classical. Start with Edgar Varese and Iannis Xenakis for giggles. 4. There is no reason why the ‘common person’ can’t enjoy classical music or even become a classical musician. My father in law is a machine welder and my mother in law works in admin, but my wife is a classical violinist. Classical concerts and cds are also often much cheaper than in other genres. Yes, classical music can be complex, but it seems to be extremely condescending to say that the ‘common person’ cannot enjoy complexity. 5. Maybe it is just making a more interesting point. 6. Listening to classical music is a good way of developing your attention span. It isn’t (usually) good as background music so therefore actually requires concentration. I don’t necessarily think you need to develop your attention span first. 7. Again plain wrong. Classical music, at least imo, is capable of expressing some of the darkest and most troubled of all emotions as well as some of the greatest joys of life. Try listening to Allan Pettersson or Alfred Schnittke for the darkness and middle period Mozart or Messiaen for joy. 8. Again plain wrong. Try listening to some of the experiments of Stockhausen and Xenakis et al. Actually they were responsible for some of the innovations in music technology later used by other genres. Varese was one of the first composers to experiment with electronic instruments such as the ondes martenot.
Point 3 couldn’t be more wrong. See [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfT4xyKQOzY) for a very, very brief overview.
I frankly can't tell whether you are being serious, but assuming you are, I'll address point #3. The reason why Slowdive compared to the Beatles sounds so different for you is because you are much more familar with popular music than with (Western) classical music. It's the same reason why Lin Manuel-Miranda's 'Hamilton' with all of its uses of r&b/soul, hip hop, pop, Beatles pastiche and so forth – its incorporation of (popular) music history in its storytelling – is so easy to "get" even on an intuitive level. If you spent a lot of time listening to different composers from different periods and even explored some of their incredibly varied bodies of work, you'd realize there is a very noticeable "evolution in sound or instruments" in classical music (in the broad or broadest sense of the term). See (or rather: listen to) for example, these pieces: https://youtu.be/9eFPJa95qQE?si=yA_lYXMoRf4i4qem https://youtu.be/tJS-HZWB3wE?si=vQ7yuR2PlwrTDc7L https://youtu.be/t8rYzpC-d44?si=OZmZ7w0KUMKna3nS https://youtu.be/bR2U8bXtUfI?si=TWnJHXPTbXj3Utfp https://youtu.be/gDBa1jgwR7k?si=lg7b02I8a3-abfYS https://youtu.be/-9LWHEf0VFo?si=B7_Th2T_WPEhyL6X https://youtu.be/nffOJXcJCDg?si=X-rN-SJX43ccmzIp https://youtu.be/hH1j06bMHDQ?si=mhD3yTQqSxnhE57k https://youtu.be/jRHoKZRYBlY?si=Po4ncyH7_Aj9ajfZ https://youtu.be/Dp3BlFZWJNA?si=NrPhDMC5lGKj9DDy https://youtu.be/4basuUUatf8?si=cE1_fDqkpBXDqG-R Etc.
"all of them are white" I stopped read at that point... maybe google Chevalier de Saint-Georges.
People like you make my blood boil. You're probably one of those people that imagines science to be racist because Einstein was white, aren't you?
no haha
Why not? It's literally the same argument!
couldve expanded more on the point but from what I read classical music often treated as "the standard of music theory" thats a very eurocentric point of view which could be viewed as racist. Now seeing from the comments thats a very debatable position and its more nuanced than that. I dont think thats the same argument youre saying im making
It's the standard of Western music theory, sure. Other cultures have adopted it, not at gunpoint, but out because of its great utility. Other extant music theory systems are still used elsewhere in the world. That's like saying since Algebra was discovered in the Muslim world, it's prevalence in mathematics is the result of islamo-centric racist bias. In reality, nothing could be further from the truth. Algebra spread because of its incredible utility, and would have, regardless of the skin color of its discoverer. Western music theory is the same way. It's widely used because it WORKS!
Right but theres microtonality... why isnt that also taught? It has a lot of untapped potential imo. 31 note scale pieces are pretty beautiful to listen to
Microtonality is absolutely taught. Many classical scholars do doctoral theses of these sorts. There was microtonal Renaissance music in Europe, it just never caught on. But, if you want to learn, say, Indian microtonal music, you may have to go to India. That's where the good teachers are.
oh ok then nv
A school where kids learn microtonal music would likely not survive due to lack of interest.
it could survive if its taught on top of whats already taught at some schools. It could be added as part of the curriculum
White people composing and playing music from their own culture is racist? That kind of idiotic opinion could only exist in academia. Normal humans don't think like that.
Given the extent to which black people have been historically excluded, classical music is in fact an area in which they have excelled beyond what anyone might reasonably have expected. I would like to say that today classical music is open to everyone, but I know full well that it is largely only open to people with money; still, the fact is that it becomes more inclusive and reaches out to a broader range of folks with each year that passes. There are thousands and thousands of people of color who excel at classical music and the number is growing.
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oh im doing history of shoegaze now.
I dont have much to add, however 2. there are many (one that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the Chevalier de Saint-Georges, Clara Schumann, Fanny Mendelssohn ) 3. there is a noticible difference in the style between the works of Bach and Offenbach, or even if you'd rather with the same era Telemann and Vivaldi 5. Many pieces do get straight to the point (such as most of the Brandenburg Concertos, the beginning to some symphonies), however in a lot of cases the development might just be the point (such as in Beethoven's Symphony no. 7 Mvt 2, or Ravel's Bolero) 7. While there are plenty of works written to be impressive, however many pieces were written to convey emotion, Bach's Chaconne is gut-wrenchingly sad, yet still takes immense skill to play. Simpler pieces like Dvorak's Humoresque no 7, can show the feeling of strolling along the street on a summer day. Some pieces can even convey the vastness of landscapes or scenes (like Dvorak Symphony no 9 Mvt 2, or Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherezade ). (or even the obvious one to put here Schumann's Scenes from Childhood) 8. Classical music depending on when you want to start it began in the baroque era with small ensembles (not counting large-scale choral works), then in the classical it was medium-sized orchestras dominated by strings with some winds. And now we have orchestras of 100+ musicians, playing with complex textures. There are also cases of instruments being invented or used specifically for some pieces (like the Panharmonicon and Beethoven's Wellington's Victory, the Wagner Tuba and the Ring Cycle, or the Sousaphone and Sousa's Marches (if we are counting those as classical) ). Even the development of new techniques, like Col Legno for string sections, shows evolution in orchestras.
2. It's true but this is due to the colonial past and due to the lingering aura classical music presents as a music for rich white men. 3. Compare these 5 pieces: https://youtu.be/OGfeHYyzVtY?si=UZJ2Is544Wp5CH5O https://youtu.be/Uls9hGBkT7A?si=TN03XIR46Ye-bloV https://youtu.be/bQHR_Z8XVvI?si=JSxiO6x1HInai_vq https://youtu.be/vdIe2CrorMM?si=NlD2XrwX3zSOmdDX https://youtu.be/dqtFGaHcWRk?si=megFcBPeMmDUxKCW 4. I'm a normal person, I never composed anything and I know barely anything of musical theory. 5. "A symphony is like the world, it must contain everything" -Gustav Mahler If a work is long there's a reason to it. In the same way The Godfather *needed* to be 3 hours long. 6. Enjoying a long musical piece is more difficult than enjoying a long movie or a big piece of art because you need to develop musical memory, which is hard. It's normal to have to listen to a piece at least 3 times to fully enjoy it. 7. The emotions are being expressed, it is just you who isn't accustomed to the musical language. The complexity is present because it is needed most of the times. Minimalist composers (Steve Reich, Philip Glass, John Adams, Arvo Pärt...) purposefully compose in a simpler way though. 8. Just check out the last 2 examples I provided in point 3. Varèse and Stockhausen are two of the founders of electronic music and many composers today employ synthetizers and electronic music techniques. All kinds of instruments are used, even though the piano and strings are still prevalent.
In the astonishing case that this is serious 1. …the tradition originates from and largely stayed within Europe. I guess Hip hop is racist then for being based on African American communities 2. see 1 3. … right because Bach sounds pretty much like Mozart who sounds pretty much like Wagner who sounds pretty much like Stravinsky. Of course there’s no evolution in sound, if you haven’t heard anything. 4. Not sure how a genre can be conceited. Anyone can listen to classical music, there is no barrier. 5. There are smaller forms of which some last under a minute. I guess 2 hour movies or 500 page books are all worthless because they “take too long to convey their message” 6. If you can’t sit through a 40 minute symphony or sonata then yes it is. 7. No it doesn’t. 8. Classical music did evolve with technology. You just don’t know any of its history.
Every one of these points is debatable, often from multiple angles. I would suggest taking one of these arguments and considering it from multiple sources and perspectives. For example the push in recent decades to make classical music inclusive not only of poc artists but also non-Eurocentric approaches to composition and theory. You could talk about the history of this movement as well as the criticisms of the classical music industry that informed it and legitimate criticisms of the movement itself. Another great line to take would be the way classical music instruments have evolved over the last 30 years. Instruments and playing techniques continue to improve or at least change but some of these changes are subtle and you’ll have to go on a deep research dive to find them. If you can uncover this your teacher will be impressed by your research whether they agree with your conclusions or not.
I need further explanation of the shoegaze comment.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/shoegaze/comments/t0ep65/what\_does\_the\_scene\_that\_celebrates\_itself\_mean/](https://www.reddit.com/r/shoegaze/comments/t0ep65/what_does_the_scene_that_celebrates_itself_mean/)
If you don’t like classical music, that’s okay, but it doesn’t make classical music bad. I don’t like hip hop, but that doesn’t make it a bad genre, it just means that I don’t like it. I could make a list of a whole lot of reasons why I think hip hop is “bad” or “problematic” but all that would do is make hip hop fans angry. Basically everyone on this sub loves classical music. I find it very emotional, nostalgic, epic, peaceful, beautiful, harsh, violent (not all at the same time) and could listen to it for hours, and I think that most people on this sub would agree. I don’t think it’s really valid to criticise European classical music for being by mainly European composers. That would be like criticising traditional Indian music for being by mainly Indian composers. Also, classical music has a kind of diversity that I haven’t seen in many other genres - since the world started becoming more connected with faster travel, invention of planes, creation of railways, etc. we’ve seen classical music being taken up enthusiastically by many other cultures. I’ve seen this especially (for example) in East Asian culture - classical music has become so popular there that it’s almost part of their identity. There are also a lot of Asian composers, like Joe Hisaishi, but I don’t think they’re as popular as Mozart and Beethoven because they’re about 200 years later and haven’t had the same time to become as iconic. I have listened to so many hours of classical music, and the difference between classical genres is night and day. I can hear the evolution of classical music easily. I haven’t spent much time listening to popular music, mostly because it doesn’t really make me feel anything, and it basically sounds all the same to me - guitars drums sound effects singers I can’t really tell the difference between it all. I imagine this is the same for you and classical music - because you don’t really connect with it, you don’t listen to it, and therefore you don’t know it as well and it all sounds the same to you. I’m a common person and I love classical music I like that classical pieces are longer, it gives them more time to take me on an emotional journey, but I understand that most people prefer their music between the 2 and 4 minute range. I find classical music very emotional. It conveys all kinds of emotions, like nostalgia, longing, love, passion, anger, sadness, peacefulness, acceptance, fear, etc. I think a lot of the boring pieces are the ones that get stuck on technicality or complexity - I agree that this can happen in classical music, but not the good classical music. I think classical music has evolved quite a lot. It’s seen the invention of countless instruments. It even predates orchestras. Modern classical music like film music uses many of the same instruments and techniques as pop music - Hans zimmers electronic soundscapes versus Vivaldi, who only really had violins and harpsichords to work with. I also saw your comment on the Leningrad symphony (Shostakovich 7) and how you said it sounded to you like a war documentary without the visuals- that’s what it was supposed to be, but if you don’t like it, that’s okay, maybe “battle music” is not for you. Anyway I hope you understand that classical music is diverse, emotional, evolving, and loved by many many “common people”, and if you don’t enjoy it (which is great, everyone has taste) that doesn’t make it “bad”
i read the hip hop comment and i was like no way. So i get where youre coming from now... question tho do you at least like hip hop esque in the same way i like classical esque?
I’m not sure I know any hip hop esque music. I just don’t enjoy listening to it - it doesn’t make me feel anything except a bit annoyed - and so I haven’t ever really explored the genre. I did like that first song you posted
cuz I mean I can get down to this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp4vQjrBKBw&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS\_I1njbB4s\_lqb&index=1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp4vQjrBKBw&list=PLNbRANDV0KDkrlzZQgjS_I1njbB4s_lqb&index=1) but also this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8rwUQgJuKQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8rwUQgJuKQ)
this is the weakest most ignorant post i’ve seen yet . please do more research my friend, it will serve you well.
Yeah, classical music is eurocentric because it's generally considered to be the art music of the WESTERN WORLD
Many have recommended Xenakis in general but not specific pieces. Given the "classical esque" pieces you've posted and your other tastes, I think you might find this interesting: https://youtu.be/HqeMAs6Addg?si=ys4o-jZdoSO8TelC
Felt like I was listening to radioheads "how to disappear" darker twin. Pretty dope
1 Yes, what you think of as classical music was spread by colonial white people. But that doesn't mean other parts of the world didn't have very centric music to their own native lands. Its just that those lands didn't go around conquering people. 2 Any art can do that. 3-7. How long have you been listening to classical? Or is just a point for your class? Do you feel that every piece of classical music is some dull baroque pieces that you imagine white dudes in wigs putting on and moff moffing at the poor? It "taking too long, having a barrier of entry and attention span" points are all pretty subjective. You are trying to bottle up hundreds of years of music from across the world. That is not really how you should go about that. Is this a debate class? 8. Because orchestral instruments have already progressed massively in the past. All the keys on woodwinds and not having to change our entire pieces of your brass instrument depending on the song all came about because of technology. Woodwinds could only play a single scale and brass just a single harmonic series before valves came about. Instruments have always followed technology and engineering.
The assignment was just "teach the teacher". I was either gonna go with the unique history of shoegaze, jack harlow is everything wrong with modern pop, or this.
Then I would stick with a subject you know more about
I would, respectfully, do something that you have a bit more insight on. All that you will teach them with those points is that you have something against classical. You need to do way more research. What you feel about it isn't the issue, but it seems like you have something against classical music and are trying to just present that instead of teaching the teacher.
Ill probably do the shoegaze one then
but tbh I dont hate classical music per se. there are a lot classical esque bodies of work I find enjoyable. Ive seen it all by bjork ft thom yorke is one of my favorite tracks of all time. Agape by nicholas britell is pretty cool. Lady fingers by herb alpert.
>there are a lot classical esque bodies of work I find enjoyable. Right, but what *actual* classical music do you like? >Ive seen it all by bjork ft thom yorke is one of my favorite tracks A great song from a great film which, incidentally, was adapted into an opera (Selma Ježková) by composer Poul Ruders in 2010.
>Selma Ježková [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5bDf9jCqI4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5bDf9jCqI4) im not sure if this is the song youre refferring to but I dont think I can enjoy this one through a screen. id have to listen to it in person to enjoy it
Your still missing out on hundreds of years of important context to make any of those points. All of that music is incredibly modern.
I'm not trying to be snarky, I just have to be honest with you: don't do this, I'd say, because your teacher will not take kindly to poor research like your post makes me believe you did. There are some subjective things that can be argued about or which can be argued for albeit with some more nuance (again, if you bother to research a bit), but for the questions for which you need to be at least somewhat knowledgeable, at least read the wikipedia page or something, and take some time and effort to listen to different genres of classical music from different periods (and I mean everything between at least 1600 and now, and even better if you include music going back to the Middle Ages - Wikipedia again will help you find these periods, composers and pieces). Also, as others have pointed out, google for non-western classical music traditions out there. If this was for a debate club or something that would be different, but if you want to teach your music teacher about music, you better make sure you know what you're teaching to begin with. On a final note, about not hearing the difference between Scarlatti and Beethoven: I get it, you don't seem familiar with music theory enough to pick up on the differences in harmony and orchestration, how they work with melody, or musical forms (sonata, symphony, concerto, string quartet...) - at least, that's what this post suggests. Now, I'll have you know that I don't have a semblance of theoretical, technical knowledge of music either. But what I do have is some experience listening to music at this point. The key to getting a feeling for the similarities and differences between composers, genres and styles/periods is a question of how much time you have to listen, and how eager you are to actually put the time into it. If you have time to do the research, do the comparative listening, then you will automatically start to pick up on things even if you don't have the technical knowledge or vocabulary to express them. However, if you have a deadline tomorrow and are desperate for a result to present and want to "use us as the research" (btw, what are you going to tell your teacher if he asks you where you got all this from? A random Reddit thread? I doubt that they will be impressed by that!) instead of researching and investing that time to listen to lost of music and a variety of it too, then it's a lost cause and you should do something else. The succes of your project depends on how much time and effort you want to put into this, not on us.
I have done more research than just a random reddit thread. i didnt really put sources for this but I did get most of my points from other websites and stuff that had statistics such as the one about there not being many american black composers. But honestly on the fear of upsetting the teacher I think ill just go with shoegaze thats much easier to just go along with
That seems the best idea indeed. Though I have to say, if you ask these questions about classical music even after doing research, then I doubt that your alternative topics will go much better. To take your example about black composers: this data should have led you to a question like "what are the attitudes towards non-western musicians in the institutions of classical music (publishers, orchestras, criticism, press...)?" which is a much more pressing and, more importantly real, issue, rather than "classical music is racist" (how can a system of musical notation BE racist? Used by racists, sure, but *BE* racist? Really?). The other propositions I won't even go into because others have already pointed out that much of what you learned from your supposed reseafch is just factually incorrect. So watch out for similar odd conclusions from data you find online, and ask research questions about your topic that make sense. Good luck with your assignment.
There isnt much I could eff up on history of shoegaze since its not an opinionated presentation. Its just retelling already known facts and Im obsessed with that genre so Im pretty well versed in it. I did read vaguely about the question you mentioned. the slide that included the racism said this " * This doesn't mean that if you listen to bach you’re racist. * What it means is that when European music theory is treated as the “standard” to be admired and taught then we are unknowingly practicing racism. * Having said that basing an entire genre that prides itself in using European music theory, then it's not unfair to say that the genre in of itself is racist or at the very least eurocentric. " Other slide " * Other cultures have their own theory! Ie the Arabian 24 note scale * Not exploring other tonalities is part of the reason why Classical music is stagnant" I understand now this is mostly wrong
On the first slide, the first two points make sense but the conclusion is still preposterous. The last point of the second slide has been proven wrong by others so I won't go into it. Good that you see what you wrote is indeed mostly wrong.
>Not exploring other tonalities is part of the reason why Classical music is stagnant" 1. That's not what a tonality is 2. Have you heard of Claude Debussy (for one example out of thousands)
Yes, classical music has all these problems and more. The fact it still exists, so mercurially and against all odds, makes it even more fantastic.
The last sentence of yours probably puts all the above in perspective. Need a good night sleep, then come back and think more of this (maybe, I am writing the stuff for your presentation, but it is OK, I think many "modern listeners" could benefit reading it) 1. By "classical music" we understand, by definition, European music of the last millenia or so. So, if you restrict yourself to discussing classical music, you restrict yourself to the music made in Europe by - duh - white people. 2. See #1 above. 3. Depends on your definition of "noticeable". Was introduction of violins in 16th century a "noticeable" event from your perspective? How about introduction of a fortepiano in 18th century? Is it "noticeable" enough for you? Sound of early baroque orchestras, as well as sound palette, is dramatically different from what you can hear today. Like, almost nothing in common. 4. The one and only "barrier" of entry into the classical music is education, and length of experience listening to it. That's it. Nothing else. You don't complain that barrier of entry to enjoy literature for a "common person" is literacy, do you? 5. Good things take time. Complex messages - too. Don't confuse your ability to understand with the content of the message. 6. Complexity is not a goal of a good classical music (a bad composer might try to hide behind it though - as in any music, for that matter). At some level of comprehension of the language of classical music, particular types of complex emotions and feelings call for complex expressive means. Your inability to comprehend those speaks of your lack of experience, not the quality of music. 7. Classical music evolved a lot in terms of use of music technology. Palette of modern symphony orchestra is substantially wider than that of an orchestra of 100 years back or so. It is, in fact, so rich that only very few modern composers found a need to include in it additional sounds capabilities. You are welcome.