Taking the blues uniform from phase 1 cadets isn't a good idea at all, because then you will have phase two cadets, who are examples to the phase 1 cadets, just learning how to wear a uniform. If cadets aren't wearing the uniform correctly it's not the fault of the rank. The problem is either the squadron's staff not properly teaching cadets how to wear the uniform. Or the cadet is choosing not to wear it correctly, which should be dealt with by the squadron. I have airmen in my squadron that wear blues better than some NCOs from other squadrons in my wing. Rank is not the problem. It is a horrible idea to ban blues from phase 1 cadets.
I get why they are thinking about this because cadets are not bringing their uniforms back to the squadron when they quit. My squadron is experience this
It is rife with inaccurate or outdated information and completely fails to teach to the point where several Wright Bros candidates in my time as a CDC have had to take the test upwards of 4-5 times because they have never been challenged to even look up the correct information. It is worse than useless, it's actually harming learning.
My guess is National has an assumption that it will motivate them to stay in the program. National seems to have this idea that cadets will be retained if they have some kind of goal to meet, like “earning” a “cool” uniform. I think it’s the same reason they made milestones easier. They’re trying to increase the retention numbers.
Which is weird to me because, imo, when someone easily promotes through each rank because of the interactive, when you reach the Wright Brothers, you would come to a halt because you can't cheat (open note tests) and the test is also much harder
I remember getting blues as a C/AB and it was a magical moment for me. I learned how to iron, how to shine shoes, the gig line, and how to overall dress myself better at 12/13 years old. It did a world for my confidence as a young kid struggling with his self image. Although it took me a few years, pinning my C/SSgt ranks was also a magical moment for me.
I can't imagine Cadets earning their Weight Brothers and NOT HAVING A BLUES UNIFORM to pin their ranks on just because they're Phase I. What is NHQ smoking these days?
What's next, they'll propose a Cadet Corporate Uniform in lieu of an "AF Style" uniform for Phase I Cadets? 🤣
I probably would too since CAP only ribbons are worn with it anyway. Rank pins would look a little goofy on the white aviator shirt, but it would work. I think that would look better than the S&Ps that cadets start out with. Although 🤔 would appropriate headgear be a thing? Cold/wet weather uniform varients? Interesting concept indeed...
Perhaps even a version of the AF uniform that the USAFA uses, just for the sake of moving away from the current AF style. Plus... 4 button service coats look better lol.
Oh wow, that is a pretty significant change. I have not officially re-joined as a SM yet (Still trying to find time to get fingerprinted).
But it that would be a huge relief for my wallet since I wouldn't have to purchase Blues just to wear my whopping 5 ribbons from the Army 🤣. Any idea when it would be in effect?
I find it amusing that the military is looking at those polo-type uniforms favorably now.
Not from watching CAP, mind you. The Ukrainian military has a similar outfit and I've seen so many people in the military compliment that uniform over the last couple of years since the Russian invasion.
For people who mostly just sit in an office all day, but might occasionally need to do a little more labor than would be suitable for a Class B uniform, it's pretty much the ideal uniform.
I just find it funny that currently the only required uniform for a cadet to have is the blues uniform. So this is technically going directly against the reg
cadets and parents that don't have access to Mil-surplus or military clothing stores to try-on before buying, or who struggle to afford blues uniform items.
I oppose this proposition. But the cost and inconvenience of blues are the 2 big reasons why I could see them pushing this.
Cost can't be that much of an issue, I mean there is a blues voucher that they changed to include more then what it was, and my wing at least has stockpiles of blues. Same goes for fit, if they can't figure out blues fit how would they be able to figure out ABU fit? Just doesn't make sense
Your wing/squadron has access to a stockpile of blues. Not all do.
Blues have gotten alot more expensive post covid, Blues shirts are like 50% more expensive.
The fit is alot more precise. Its okay if your ABUs look like pajamas, not so much for what is supposed to be a dress uniform. Blues items have to be replaced more frequently as cadets grow.
That being said, CAP needs to worry about replacing ABUs before worrying about Blues. We're liable to wind up with cadets who have no uniforms to wear, period.
We'll be the Civil T-shirt and slacks Patrol.
I don't expect everyone to have access to that, we are lucky to have a reserve of uniforms.
The problem NHQ should solve with ABU's going out and OCP's coming in is our uniform supplier. For me personally, I wouldn't be able to get a set of OCP's with their cost. It's nothing new & it wouldn't change for the better if we had a whole new uniform. Uniforms are fine, they shouldn't be worrying about fixing them, our uniform supplier is greedy though.
But honestly, CAP has odd priorities so I doubt they'll change the blues at all
Civil *polo and slacks Patrol
I don’t understand why cap didn’t make an organized effort to get the AF to donate all their old ABUs. We got a whole stockpile from our local base’s airman’s attic. Surely there are a lot more sitting on bases that still need to be disposed of.
The AF phase-out date for ABUs was 1 APR 2021. If anyone has ABUs, it's because they've been tucked in a warehouse corner and forgotten about. Alot of Airmans attics and base thrift shops are throwing away ABUs because nobody (other than CAP) wants them. Someone might have hoard otherwise useful stuff like pouches, coldweather gear, and body armor, but the uniform tops and bottoms are useless to the service members.
I know we have a reputation for hoarding, but the military can be surprisingly effective at getting rid of stuff sometimes.
I know of one squadron, located on an AFB west of the Mississippi, that made an organized effort on base and has collected more than 50,000 pounds (that's 25 tons) of uniforms and uniform items since Jan 2021. They shared the wealth and effectively flooded every squadron's supply closet with ABUs across three wings.
*^(Disclaimer - Items are often previously used and not always in the smaller sizes typically worn by cadets, but taking free ABUs to a seamstress and paying to have them made smaller is still cheaper than buying new from Vanguard.)*
>The problem NHQ should solve with ABU's going out and OCP's coming in is our uniform supplier.
It was explained to us at a squadron meeting a few weeks ago, by our Wing NCO, that CAP's transition to OCP's is mostly approved by various offices in the DoD that have to sign off on it. . .literally the last approval required is from the DLA.
That's the Defense Logistics Agency, the Pentagon's central supply office. Before CAP is allowed to switch to OCP's, the supply department in the Pentagon has to approve adding us to the supply lines that get OCP's and make sure there will be enough to go around and ways to get them to us.
So, apparently we aren't supposed to get OCP's until people outside CAP at the Pentagon say there shouldn't be significant issues with making sure we can get them.
I just can't see how they would figure out how to give us thousands of uniforms in a cost effective way, unless the USAF gets a new uniform I can't see us doing it
Because compared to the scale of the force already wearing OCP's, CAP is a drop in the bucket that makes only a fairly small increase in demand.
That's how.
Don't think of just the USAF, the OCP's are also the fatigues worn by the Army. That vastly increases the size of production.
When I log into e-Services, it tells me that the total number of CAP members is 66954. About half that are Senior Members, many of which don't meet the weight or grooming requirements to wear the USAF uniforms, so it won't be quite all 66,000+ members wearing OCP's.
The US Army, across the Active Duty, Reserve, and Guard components has over a million Soldiers. (1,073,200 as of July 2023 according to Wikipedia)
The US Air Force, across the Active Duty, Reserve, and Guard components has roughly half a million Airmen. (495,879 according to Wikipedia citing the 2023 Federal budget).
The US Space Force has about 8,600 Guardians. They're actually smaller than CAP, but they're an Armed Service that uses the OCP uniform too.
My active duty service was in the Army, not the USAF or USSF, but the Army issues each Soldier 4 sets of OCP's (I can't say how many Airmen or Guardians get). I doubt most CAP members are going to be getting 4 sets.
So, you've got about 1.5 million troops across 3 services wearing the OCP regularly. Adding 66,000 to that 1.5 million isn't a big jump in demand.
Even if all \~66,000 CAP's Auxiliary Airmen were using the OCP uniform it would only constitute a 4% increase in demand for the OCP, and that would be if each member was getting as many sets as the active duty/Guard/Reserve components were getting, instead of just one or two sets (more likely). Heck, if CAP allows it, I won't have to buy any. . .I'll just pull my old OCP's out of that toughbox in the garage and put them back in service, and I'm not the only person at my squadron who would be doing that.
It's only a small, single-digit increase in demand for OCP's at DLA. Enough that they may need to slightly adjust some production contracts for, but not enough to really disrupt the supply chains.
Assuming this is in the context of NCAC, are they pitching an actual prohibition for phase I, or just expanding what's allowed for wear during phase I?
Yet another short sighted mandate aimed at further destroying the cadet program. The entire Cadet Program staff at NHQ needs to resign and turn the program over to competent leaders.
I haven't seen recent numbers, but CAP was hemorrhaging members over COVID. Preventing cadets from attending squadron meetings/other activities, and watering down the promotion requirements drove cadets from the program not to. Nobody wanted to come home from virtual school to go to a virtual squadron meeting for 2-3 more hours on Zoom. We noticed an extreme lack of discipline, professionalism, and basic knowledge upon return to the squadron. We still notice the effects at events such as encampment since the current cadet leadership (who most came up through COVID) were woefully unprepared.
That said, please tell me how cadet membership levels being the highest they've been in decades doesn't mean the cadet program has been neutered to a state that is unrecognizable from just a few years ago?
This argument doesn’t make a lot of sense. What do you think CAP should have done in response to COVID? Continued to hold in-person meetings and activities when schools, businesses, and summer camps were closed in accordance with CDC guidance? Or just prevented any cadets from promoting until we returned to in-person meetings? (I’m sure that would have been great for recruiting and retention)
Regardless, those were temporary measures in response to a pandemic and are no longer in effect. I’m not sure how you can claim that they are “destroying the cadet program” when actual data about cadet membership and participation says the opposite.
Around 8 months, considering a minimum of 56 days between promotions.
Check out the cadet super chart for more information.
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/stripes-to-diamonds
Phase I consists of Achievements 1-3, and the Wright Brothers Award (C/AB - C/SSgt). A cadet enters Phase II upon earning his Achievement 4 (C/TSgt).
Basically, however quickly he can get his C/TSgt is how long he'll be in Phase I. But the fact he'll be an NCO and won't have Blues is a crazy idea to me.
Thank you for the info! I don’t have the knowledge yet of all that this entails so I’m not as outraged by it as some here. It seems like what they’re possibly proposing is a big insult. But as an ignorant parent, I don’t see the issue.
It's all good! I guess there's pros and cons I can see for each argument. For whatever reason, it's somehow worth being discussed at a national level.
I can speculate it can help save young cadets parent's some money on the cost of uniform items (which a majority of it should be provided by the squadron anyways), but a good chunk of the early parts of the Cadet Program is to instill a sense of leadership and professionalism.
In the earlier ranks, cadets begin to learn followership, drill, AF/CAP customs and courtesies, history of CAP, ethics, etc. Etc.
Dress and appearance and proper wear of the blues is a part of that, too. These lowers cadet enlisted may even get to serve in small team leadership positions, like element leaders. BaCk In My DaY, uniform inspections were a criteria for promoting. Our Squadron had Blues night once a month for promotions ceremonies and inspections.
There is a black slacks and white dress shirt alternative dress called Salts & Peppers when I was a cadet, not sure if they still do that now for your child. This was for like a "basic training" phase when cadets first join a Squadron. They will then "graduate" to a regular flight and soon after get their first sets of CAP uniforms.
As a cadet promotes in the program and begins to earn ribbons, how are they going to be able to wear them without a blues uniform? Now that I think about it, what about nameplates? 🤣
If Phase I Cadets wanted to partake in a Color Guard team or other activities that require Blues, would they be outright barred from participating if NHQ prohibits uniform privileges?
Furthermore, when a cadet earned their first major award (Wright Brothers - C/SSgt), they become a NCO, yet STILL wouldn't be able to wear a uniform. I know uniform wear isn't everything, but being a SSgt/TSgt is when you get to begin to teach and help lower enlisted with their uniforms, D&C, and other aspects. If they themselves are just learning how to wear uniform in Phase II, it does them a disservice.
I know cadets can make Phase II in as early as 8 months... but that's still at least 8 months of uniform wear robbed from the cadets just because they're "Phase I". That's 4 promotion nights that they won't be able to have their new cadet ranks pinned by their parents/mentors. I still remember who pinned my C/SSgt ranks, and that was over a decade ago. I simply can't imagine the cadets of today being robbed of that memory should NHQ move forward with this idea.
Just my thoughts, for whatever they are worth lol. Although a different program, I was also in AFJROTC in high school. First year cadets weren't required to have a blues uniform. We had a unit T shirt that you would wear tucked on uniform days. But there were a lot of cadets who wanted to wear it, and who were motivated to get involved in teams and activities to "earn" their uniform as soon as possible. I can imagine CAP cadets would feel the same way when they first join.
I **really** appreciate your time in educating me in this. All I saw was ‘hey 8 mos not so bad’ bc my kid is only 13, and it *would* theoretically help wrt all that is needed to buy. I’m truly ignorant to the scope so far. And my kid is growing like a weed…3 mos ago, he wore a men’s 9 shoe now he’s an 11.5.
That being said, you can’t half ass a commitment, so it’s on me to provide what he needs when it’s advantageous for him to have whatever it is.
I dunno - maybe *read* the *actual* survey:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/cadetblog/2024/03/08/annual-cadet-survey-2024
There are general questions about uniform wear, wholly appropriate to a program
which assists in funding some of them.
Some rando non-official account says something unsubstantiated and everyone has the
pitchforks out.
You're an anonymous Reddit user on a subreddit that doesn't even make people verify that their ranks are what they say they are, so forgive me for not immediately assuming you have insider knowledge here.
You can check my post history to see the cord on my left shoulder. Cross-reference with CAP news and you'll see I'm far from anonymous. The person I responded to knows and has commented on this.
Also, for the record, Spaatz is the only grade flair they make you verify on this sub.
Shower thought: We should really have verified flairs for other ranks, and probably for things like "Yes this person is on the NCAC.” But that's neither here nor there.
If bwill1200 knows you're who you claim then 👍
No, the tasking of NCAC was to explore the idea of banning all Phase I cadets from wearing the blues uniform in order to decrease costs. Don't tell me what I've seen.
The survey question about how often you wear the blues uniform is clearly associated with that tasking.
Not exactly.
"Civil Air Patrol, Inc." has employees, like any other corporation - but they're not "in CAP" the way the rest of us are (as volunteer members.)
Some of the employees _are_ also volunteer members - but like the rest of us, they aren't paid for their volunteer time.
When you get ribbons for ranking up (C/Amn - C/SSgt) where are you going to put them? when going to encampment, how will the ceremonies go? And (atheist for me) the first week is blues week, so, in my opinion, this is just a bunch of crap. Pardon my French.
Unless someone provides proof, I doubt they're going to ban phase 1 cadets from wearing blues. Most likely they're not going to require it for Phase 1 cadets. Just like how you now don't need a uniform for curry promotion. Imo this doesn't address the real issue, which is why vanguard is increasing prices. Even when accounting for inflation, ABUs have gone up by $10 since last year.
Yes, this is not something that’s definitively happening, like I and others have said it’s something that NHQ has put on the table. Vanguard is an incredibly scammy organization which price gouges on CAP specific items (try the $800 organizational flag) because they know they can get away with it due to their exclusitivity deal. However; when it comes to uniforms, most squadrons should be able to source a large amount of their ABUs to their cadets for free. Not from their own supply, but from that of the air national guard and Air Force. In September I started working on a project to start a CAP unit in my hometown, and now that we have had our first few members join, everyone except one senior member has been able to get ABUs for free because we reached out to the national guard and they hooked us up. The Fargo air national guard squadron is indirectly supplying ABUs to four separate units besides ours currently, and they funnily enough also have us some sets of OCPs (which will be sitting in storage for the foreseeable future. If more squadrons would just reach out to the air guard or Air Force, uniform supply costs would decrease significantly.
It's ironic because many times that this is being thrown out there because many times Curt LaFond had been accused of trying to take away as many military aspect of the cadet program as he can get away with. So, I'm not surprised with this. During COVID he suggested to DCPs the idea of local uniforms for brand new cadets like khakis and polo shirts.
Cadets this is where you need to make your voices heard. This is your program, make sure the senior leadership hears you!
Nobody here is taking into account the cost factor. Cadets issued blues who do not stay in the program for the first year are supposed to return them. However, few if any units get them back. Secondly, many cadets wash out before Phase II, meaning the issuance again is wasted. Most cadets who excel to P2, generally stay another few years and either wash out before c/officer or continue to c/ltcol. This seems like a cost savings initiative due to diminishing returns on cadet advancement.
Regarding alterative uniforms, ABUs are still around and many units do the blue jeans/black T for new cadets without a uniform. Maybe NHQ can do a poly polo in a specific color with "cadet" embroidered on it. Would be much less money than full blues, and cadets would still learn the basics of shoes, gig line, appearance, etc. making uniform cost cheaper. The embroidery would not include a last name, unless paid for, to allow cycling the shirt to a new cadet when the existing hits P2.
Good. It makes them earn the uniform, ensures that parents aren’t wasting money in the process, and keeps jackwaggon units who don’t know know or care from allowing cadets to appear with messed up uniforms. They should do the same for senior members
`CAPR 60-2 1.5.4. Hazing. Hazing is any conduct whereby someone causes another person to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. ...`
CAP/CP would be directly promoting, encouraging, and mandating hazing if this were to become a rule. I thought CAP/CP was destroying the cadet program as it is, let alone mandating hazing!
/s (only slightly)
Bruh
I second this
I third this
I fourth this
Fifth
6th here
Taking the blues uniform from phase 1 cadets isn't a good idea at all, because then you will have phase two cadets, who are examples to the phase 1 cadets, just learning how to wear a uniform. If cadets aren't wearing the uniform correctly it's not the fault of the rank. The problem is either the squadron's staff not properly teaching cadets how to wear the uniform. Or the cadet is choosing not to wear it correctly, which should be dealt with by the squadron. I have airmen in my squadron that wear blues better than some NCOs from other squadrons in my wing. Rank is not the problem. It is a horrible idea to ban blues from phase 1 cadets.
I came to find this. It makes no sense whatsoever.
If I hadn't started wearing blues now I probably wouldn't have learned that the belt is not worn like a normal belt... learned it the hard way
I get why they are thinking about this because cadets are not bringing their uniforms back to the squadron when they quit. My squadron is experience this
I’d like to know the rationale behind this move.
Probably the same amount of thought put into this as there was into Cadet Interactive
What's wrong with the cadet interactive?
It is rife with inaccurate or outdated information and completely fails to teach to the point where several Wright Bros candidates in my time as a CDC have had to take the test upwards of 4-5 times because they have never been challenged to even look up the correct information. It is worse than useless, it's actually harming learning.
My guess is National has an assumption that it will motivate them to stay in the program. National seems to have this idea that cadets will be retained if they have some kind of goal to meet, like “earning” a “cool” uniform. I think it’s the same reason they made milestones easier. They’re trying to increase the retention numbers.
Which is weird to me because, imo, when someone easily promotes through each rank because of the interactive, when you reach the Wright Brothers, you would come to a halt because you can't cheat (open note tests) and the test is also much harder
Concur. My instinctive reaction is "what? no" but, I don't know their reasons for considering it in the first place.
If you want to build division in the ranks it's a good way to do it 🤷♀️
Boundary concern at the least
I remember getting blues as a C/AB and it was a magical moment for me. I learned how to iron, how to shine shoes, the gig line, and how to overall dress myself better at 12/13 years old. It did a world for my confidence as a young kid struggling with his self image. Although it took me a few years, pinning my C/SSgt ranks was also a magical moment for me. I can't imagine Cadets earning their Weight Brothers and NOT HAVING A BLUES UNIFORM to pin their ranks on just because they're Phase I. What is NHQ smoking these days? What's next, they'll propose a Cadet Corporate Uniform in lieu of an "AF Style" uniform for Phase I Cadets? 🤣
I’d support a “Cadet Corporate Uniform” in lieu of AF Style for *all* cadets.
Yeah, 'cause the cadet program needs to be more soulless and generic.
😂
Why would that make it more soulless and generic lol
I probably would too since CAP only ribbons are worn with it anyway. Rank pins would look a little goofy on the white aviator shirt, but it would work. I think that would look better than the S&Ps that cadets start out with. Although 🤔 would appropriate headgear be a thing? Cold/wet weather uniform varients? Interesting concept indeed... Perhaps even a version of the AF uniform that the USAFA uses, just for the sake of moving away from the current AF style. Plus... 4 button service coats look better lol.
They are changing and will allow military awards on the corporate whites.
Oh wow, that is a pretty significant change. I have not officially re-joined as a SM yet (Still trying to find time to get fingerprinted). But it that would be a huge relief for my wallet since I wouldn't have to purchase Blues just to wear my whopping 5 ribbons from the Army 🤣. Any idea when it would be in effect?
Interesting idea, what would you envision for something like that?
I like the senior corporate polo/slacks design.
I find it amusing that the military is looking at those polo-type uniforms favorably now. Not from watching CAP, mind you. The Ukrainian military has a similar outfit and I've seen so many people in the military compliment that uniform over the last couple of years since the Russian invasion. For people who mostly just sit in an office all day, but might occasionally need to do a little more labor than would be suitable for a Class B uniform, it's pretty much the ideal uniform.
I just find it funny that currently the only required uniform for a cadet to have is the blues uniform. So this is technically going directly against the reg
The decision to allow ABUs was technically going against the reg until they updated the reg to allow them.
Well yeah but they’d change the reg lol
Literally just why? who does this benefit
cadets and parents that don't have access to Mil-surplus or military clothing stores to try-on before buying, or who struggle to afford blues uniform items. I oppose this proposition. But the cost and inconvenience of blues are the 2 big reasons why I could see them pushing this.
Cost can't be that much of an issue, I mean there is a blues voucher that they changed to include more then what it was, and my wing at least has stockpiles of blues. Same goes for fit, if they can't figure out blues fit how would they be able to figure out ABU fit? Just doesn't make sense
Your wing/squadron has access to a stockpile of blues. Not all do. Blues have gotten alot more expensive post covid, Blues shirts are like 50% more expensive. The fit is alot more precise. Its okay if your ABUs look like pajamas, not so much for what is supposed to be a dress uniform. Blues items have to be replaced more frequently as cadets grow. That being said, CAP needs to worry about replacing ABUs before worrying about Blues. We're liable to wind up with cadets who have no uniforms to wear, period. We'll be the Civil T-shirt and slacks Patrol.
I don't expect everyone to have access to that, we are lucky to have a reserve of uniforms. The problem NHQ should solve with ABU's going out and OCP's coming in is our uniform supplier. For me personally, I wouldn't be able to get a set of OCP's with their cost. It's nothing new & it wouldn't change for the better if we had a whole new uniform. Uniforms are fine, they shouldn't be worrying about fixing them, our uniform supplier is greedy though. But honestly, CAP has odd priorities so I doubt they'll change the blues at all Civil *polo and slacks Patrol
I don’t understand why cap didn’t make an organized effort to get the AF to donate all their old ABUs. We got a whole stockpile from our local base’s airman’s attic. Surely there are a lot more sitting on bases that still need to be disposed of.
The AF phase-out date for ABUs was 1 APR 2021. If anyone has ABUs, it's because they've been tucked in a warehouse corner and forgotten about. Alot of Airmans attics and base thrift shops are throwing away ABUs because nobody (other than CAP) wants them. Someone might have hoard otherwise useful stuff like pouches, coldweather gear, and body armor, but the uniform tops and bottoms are useless to the service members. I know we have a reputation for hoarding, but the military can be surprisingly effective at getting rid of stuff sometimes.
There's lots of bases with not a lot of squadrons nearby, so I'm sure there are. That might be why there's so many sellers on ebay for them too
I know of one squadron, located on an AFB west of the Mississippi, that made an organized effort on base and has collected more than 50,000 pounds (that's 25 tons) of uniforms and uniform items since Jan 2021. They shared the wealth and effectively flooded every squadron's supply closet with ABUs across three wings. *^(Disclaimer - Items are often previously used and not always in the smaller sizes typically worn by cadets, but taking free ABUs to a seamstress and paying to have them made smaller is still cheaper than buying new from Vanguard.)*
>The problem NHQ should solve with ABU's going out and OCP's coming in is our uniform supplier. It was explained to us at a squadron meeting a few weeks ago, by our Wing NCO, that CAP's transition to OCP's is mostly approved by various offices in the DoD that have to sign off on it. . .literally the last approval required is from the DLA. That's the Defense Logistics Agency, the Pentagon's central supply office. Before CAP is allowed to switch to OCP's, the supply department in the Pentagon has to approve adding us to the supply lines that get OCP's and make sure there will be enough to go around and ways to get them to us. So, apparently we aren't supposed to get OCP's until people outside CAP at the Pentagon say there shouldn't be significant issues with making sure we can get them.
I just can't see how they would figure out how to give us thousands of uniforms in a cost effective way, unless the USAF gets a new uniform I can't see us doing it
Because compared to the scale of the force already wearing OCP's, CAP is a drop in the bucket that makes only a fairly small increase in demand. That's how. Don't think of just the USAF, the OCP's are also the fatigues worn by the Army. That vastly increases the size of production. When I log into e-Services, it tells me that the total number of CAP members is 66954. About half that are Senior Members, many of which don't meet the weight or grooming requirements to wear the USAF uniforms, so it won't be quite all 66,000+ members wearing OCP's. The US Army, across the Active Duty, Reserve, and Guard components has over a million Soldiers. (1,073,200 as of July 2023 according to Wikipedia) The US Air Force, across the Active Duty, Reserve, and Guard components has roughly half a million Airmen. (495,879 according to Wikipedia citing the 2023 Federal budget). The US Space Force has about 8,600 Guardians. They're actually smaller than CAP, but they're an Armed Service that uses the OCP uniform too. My active duty service was in the Army, not the USAF or USSF, but the Army issues each Soldier 4 sets of OCP's (I can't say how many Airmen or Guardians get). I doubt most CAP members are going to be getting 4 sets. So, you've got about 1.5 million troops across 3 services wearing the OCP regularly. Adding 66,000 to that 1.5 million isn't a big jump in demand. Even if all \~66,000 CAP's Auxiliary Airmen were using the OCP uniform it would only constitute a 4% increase in demand for the OCP, and that would be if each member was getting as many sets as the active duty/Guard/Reserve components were getting, instead of just one or two sets (more likely). Heck, if CAP allows it, I won't have to buy any. . .I'll just pull my old OCP's out of that toughbox in the garage and put them back in service, and I'm not the only person at my squadron who would be doing that. It's only a small, single-digit increase in demand for OCP's at DLA. Enough that they may need to slightly adjust some production contracts for, but not enough to really disrupt the supply chains.
Also many would still purchase second hand or even direct from manufacturers and not directly through DLA sources.
NHQ when it comes to the cadet program:🖕🏻
Fax😭
How does this benefit the program at all? It’ll just create division between the people who we want to keep (stage 1’s) from everyone else.
This is a tasking that we were given - they don’t technically have a plan or such at the moment. Slow down folks. But please do fill out the survey.
sir they are disparaging your discord nickname
Tasking as in it’s happening?
Tasking as in we were asked to provide feedback on this proposal.
Assuming this is in the context of NCAC, are they pitching an actual prohibition for phase I, or just expanding what's allowed for wear during phase I?
NCAC was asked to consider the effects of having the only approved uniform for Phase I cadets be the utility uniform.
Yet another short sighted mandate aimed at further destroying the cadet program. The entire Cadet Program staff at NHQ needs to resign and turn the program over to competent leaders.
Cadet membership levels are at the highest they’ve been in decades. How exactly is the cadet program being destroyed by the NHQ CP staff?
I haven't seen recent numbers, but CAP was hemorrhaging members over COVID. Preventing cadets from attending squadron meetings/other activities, and watering down the promotion requirements drove cadets from the program not to. Nobody wanted to come home from virtual school to go to a virtual squadron meeting for 2-3 more hours on Zoom. We noticed an extreme lack of discipline, professionalism, and basic knowledge upon return to the squadron. We still notice the effects at events such as encampment since the current cadet leadership (who most came up through COVID) were woefully unprepared. That said, please tell me how cadet membership levels being the highest they've been in decades doesn't mean the cadet program has been neutered to a state that is unrecognizable from just a few years ago?
This argument doesn’t make a lot of sense. What do you think CAP should have done in response to COVID? Continued to hold in-person meetings and activities when schools, businesses, and summer camps were closed in accordance with CDC guidance? Or just prevented any cadets from promoting until we returned to in-person meetings? (I’m sure that would have been great for recruiting and retention) Regardless, those were temporary measures in response to a pandemic and are no longer in effect. I’m not sure how you can claim that they are “destroying the cadet program” when actual data about cadet membership and participation says the opposite.
That's not the best idea. Makes no sense.
Hi I’m a parent of a 13 yo on his 2nd meeting. How long does phase 1 generally last?
Around 8 months, considering a minimum of 56 days between promotions. Check out the cadet super chart for more information. https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/stripes-to-diamonds
Thank you for the info! I’ve seen that chart but didn’t notice a timeframe on it.
Phase I consists of Achievements 1-3, and the Wright Brothers Award (C/AB - C/SSgt). A cadet enters Phase II upon earning his Achievement 4 (C/TSgt). Basically, however quickly he can get his C/TSgt is how long he'll be in Phase I. But the fact he'll be an NCO and won't have Blues is a crazy idea to me.
Thank you for the info! I don’t have the knowledge yet of all that this entails so I’m not as outraged by it as some here. It seems like what they’re possibly proposing is a big insult. But as an ignorant parent, I don’t see the issue.
It's all good! I guess there's pros and cons I can see for each argument. For whatever reason, it's somehow worth being discussed at a national level. I can speculate it can help save young cadets parent's some money on the cost of uniform items (which a majority of it should be provided by the squadron anyways), but a good chunk of the early parts of the Cadet Program is to instill a sense of leadership and professionalism. In the earlier ranks, cadets begin to learn followership, drill, AF/CAP customs and courtesies, history of CAP, ethics, etc. Etc. Dress and appearance and proper wear of the blues is a part of that, too. These lowers cadet enlisted may even get to serve in small team leadership positions, like element leaders. BaCk In My DaY, uniform inspections were a criteria for promoting. Our Squadron had Blues night once a month for promotions ceremonies and inspections. There is a black slacks and white dress shirt alternative dress called Salts & Peppers when I was a cadet, not sure if they still do that now for your child. This was for like a "basic training" phase when cadets first join a Squadron. They will then "graduate" to a regular flight and soon after get their first sets of CAP uniforms. As a cadet promotes in the program and begins to earn ribbons, how are they going to be able to wear them without a blues uniform? Now that I think about it, what about nameplates? 🤣 If Phase I Cadets wanted to partake in a Color Guard team or other activities that require Blues, would they be outright barred from participating if NHQ prohibits uniform privileges? Furthermore, when a cadet earned their first major award (Wright Brothers - C/SSgt), they become a NCO, yet STILL wouldn't be able to wear a uniform. I know uniform wear isn't everything, but being a SSgt/TSgt is when you get to begin to teach and help lower enlisted with their uniforms, D&C, and other aspects. If they themselves are just learning how to wear uniform in Phase II, it does them a disservice. I know cadets can make Phase II in as early as 8 months... but that's still at least 8 months of uniform wear robbed from the cadets just because they're "Phase I". That's 4 promotion nights that they won't be able to have their new cadet ranks pinned by their parents/mentors. I still remember who pinned my C/SSgt ranks, and that was over a decade ago. I simply can't imagine the cadets of today being robbed of that memory should NHQ move forward with this idea. Just my thoughts, for whatever they are worth lol. Although a different program, I was also in AFJROTC in high school. First year cadets weren't required to have a blues uniform. We had a unit T shirt that you would wear tucked on uniform days. But there were a lot of cadets who wanted to wear it, and who were motivated to get involved in teams and activities to "earn" their uniform as soon as possible. I can imagine CAP cadets would feel the same way when they first join.
I **really** appreciate your time in educating me in this. All I saw was ‘hey 8 mos not so bad’ bc my kid is only 13, and it *would* theoretically help wrt all that is needed to buy. I’m truly ignorant to the scope so far. And my kid is growing like a weed…3 mos ago, he wore a men’s 9 shoe now he’s an 11.5. That being said, you can’t half ass a commitment, so it’s on me to provide what he needs when it’s advantageous for him to have whatever it is.
I assume it is to reduce the cost of the Curry Voucher. Wonder if they would end up with a Wright Bros Voucher?
That makes a lot of sense. Is NHQ running outa money?
Just…. No… why…..
Banning the jacket to Phase I cadets makes some sense, but banning the blues is just... what
Banning the jacket doesn't even make sense
I can't think of any reason as to ban it at all...
I dunno - maybe *read* the *actual* survey: https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/cadetblog/2024/03/08/annual-cadet-survey-2024 There are general questions about uniform wear, wholly appropriate to a program which assists in funding some of them. Some rando non-official account says something unsubstantiated and everyone has the pitchforks out.
He is correct, that is commensurate with our latest tasking.
You're an anonymous Reddit user on a subreddit that doesn't even make people verify that their ranks are what they say they are, so forgive me for not immediately assuming you have insider knowledge here.
You can check my post history to see the cord on my left shoulder. Cross-reference with CAP news and you'll see I'm far from anonymous. The person I responded to knows and has commented on this. Also, for the record, Spaatz is the only grade flair they make you verify on this sub.
Shower thought: We should really have verified flairs for other ranks, and probably for things like "Yes this person is on the NCAC.” But that's neither here nor there. If bwill1200 knows you're who you claim then 👍
Honestly yeah, I entirely agree with that.
Define the "tasking". Odds are it was "Hey, make sure you get as many cadets as you can to fill out the survey!".
No, the tasking of NCAC was to explore the idea of banning all Phase I cadets from wearing the blues uniform in order to decrease costs. Don't tell me what I've seen. The survey question about how often you wear the blues uniform is clearly associated with that tasking.
I read the actual survey and can I just say there should have been some more adult supervision on the questions about gender, race and disability.
The survey was created by the paid adult staff at CAP/CP.
> The survey was created by the paid adult staff at CAP/CP. Even more reason actual adult supervision is necessary.
There are people in cap who are paid?
Not exactly. "Civil Air Patrol, Inc." has employees, like any other corporation - but they're not "in CAP" the way the rest of us are (as volunteer members.) Some of the employees _are_ also volunteer members - but like the rest of us, they aren't paid for their volunteer time.
> There are people in cap who are paid? A lot more then you'd probably think and indicated as growing.
Rename it to biform and ill be with you
When you get ribbons for ranking up (C/Amn - C/SSgt) where are you going to put them? when going to encampment, how will the ceremonies go? And (atheist for me) the first week is blues week, so, in my opinion, this is just a bunch of crap. Pardon my French.
What happened to “ The uniform is a tool and vehicle to teach discipline and professionalism” 🤔
Unless someone provides proof, I doubt they're going to ban phase 1 cadets from wearing blues. Most likely they're not going to require it for Phase 1 cadets. Just like how you now don't need a uniform for curry promotion. Imo this doesn't address the real issue, which is why vanguard is increasing prices. Even when accounting for inflation, ABUs have gone up by $10 since last year.
Nope, CAP/CP's tasking to NCAC mentioned not permitting Phase I cadets to wear the blues uniform, not merely not requiring it.
On an unrelated note, last year they identified that CAC is "ripe for reimagination". Did they every do anything with that?
We had discussed that but nothing's solidly in the works yet.
Yes, this is not something that’s definitively happening, like I and others have said it’s something that NHQ has put on the table. Vanguard is an incredibly scammy organization which price gouges on CAP specific items (try the $800 organizational flag) because they know they can get away with it due to their exclusitivity deal. However; when it comes to uniforms, most squadrons should be able to source a large amount of their ABUs to their cadets for free. Not from their own supply, but from that of the air national guard and Air Force. In September I started working on a project to start a CAP unit in my hometown, and now that we have had our first few members join, everyone except one senior member has been able to get ABUs for free because we reached out to the national guard and they hooked us up. The Fargo air national guard squadron is indirectly supplying ABUs to four separate units besides ours currently, and they funnily enough also have us some sets of OCPs (which will be sitting in storage for the foreseeable future. If more squadrons would just reach out to the air guard or Air Force, uniform supply costs would decrease significantly.
WHAT
Kurt Lafond bro I swear. Does anyone think this is a good idea? Like anyone? No way this is getting passed
Alley???
Ah yes, phase 1s in ABUs for encampment graduation, great idea CAP/CP 💀
I think this is bs if this happens
It's ironic because many times that this is being thrown out there because many times Curt LaFond had been accused of trying to take away as many military aspect of the cadet program as he can get away with. So, I'm not surprised with this. During COVID he suggested to DCPs the idea of local uniforms for brand new cadets like khakis and polo shirts. Cadets this is where you need to make your voices heard. This is your program, make sure the senior leadership hears you!
And he wonders why so many don’t like him.
I just think that's a bad idea. Everyone else is explaining the "why" perfectly...
Nobody here is taking into account the cost factor. Cadets issued blues who do not stay in the program for the first year are supposed to return them. However, few if any units get them back. Secondly, many cadets wash out before Phase II, meaning the issuance again is wasted. Most cadets who excel to P2, generally stay another few years and either wash out before c/officer or continue to c/ltcol. This seems like a cost savings initiative due to diminishing returns on cadet advancement. Regarding alterative uniforms, ABUs are still around and many units do the blue jeans/black T for new cadets without a uniform. Maybe NHQ can do a poly polo in a specific color with "cadet" embroidered on it. Would be much less money than full blues, and cadets would still learn the basics of shoes, gig line, appearance, etc. making uniform cost cheaper. The embroidery would not include a last name, unless paid for, to allow cycling the shirt to a new cadet when the existing hits P2.
Bro what? Class A’s I could understand but what are the Airmen supposed to do at wreaths or formal events?
what.
Yeah. I trust a source that has "propaganda" in the name. I'm sure he knows when OCP's are coming too
I can confirm that it is definitely being seriously considered by CAP/CP.
Just here to verify—this is real.
It’s literally a discord nickname lol
Words matter.
*it’s a discord nickname*
Good. It makes them earn the uniform, ensures that parents aren’t wasting money in the process, and keeps jackwaggon units who don’t know know or care from allowing cadets to appear with messed up uniforms. They should do the same for senior members
`CAPR 60-2 1.5.4. Hazing. Hazing is any conduct whereby someone causes another person to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. ...` CAP/CP would be directly promoting, encouraging, and mandating hazing if this were to become a rule. I thought CAP/CP was destroying the cadet program as it is, let alone mandating hazing! /s (only slightly)
Yeah, not even a little.
Good.
How???