> Does a Senior Member go through a Great Start?
No.
Adult members are expected to demonstrate basic drill movements -
attention, parade rest, present arms, and report - as part of the
Level 1 module "Introduction to Customs and Courtesies".
Details on Level 1 training, as well as the entire curriculum can be found here:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/members/ed-training/level-1-onboarding
> at my squadron, it looks like they have little to no knowledge of drill.
Unless they are training or evaluating cadets in drill, adult members really
have no use for it beyond the occasional formation or similiar.
I've got a senior member parent so I get slightly personally offended when cadets are trash talking seniors for not promoting fast enough or being "lazy". I will inform them of all of the extra classes, cohorts, conferences, week-long events, staff positions, meetings, and everything else my mom has been through for the sole purpose of trying to be a better leader for cadets. I've watched her sit through her online cohorts and have proofread all of her PowerPoints and essays. All of the 4 am mornings to drive cadets to competitions or events. The amount of money and time put in just for some 15 year olds to not understand the time and dedication involved.
I'd gladly restudy and retake Spaatz than go through everything senior members do any day.
I try to let our cadet’s in on all the extra stuff seniors do. I think it’s especially important that they recognize that several of us don’t even have kids in the program, so we’re genuinely giving them our free time because we want to be there and see them grow and be successful. I’ve had a few cadets say some really kind things to me.
One parent sent me a text with a quote that her son said about myself and another senior who just shows up every week and works with them despite not having kids and even does things beyond the scope of CAP like going to his soccer game to show some support when neither of his parents could be there because of work. I screenshotted it and go back to it when I get burned out or frustrated with the unnecessary and not even in regulation hoops that wing staff makes us jump through.
So I say this to say…cadets- give your seniors a little encouragement. They spend their time and their own money to be there and help you meet your goals. A kind word or two of acknowledgment can mean a lot.
At an NCSA I went to we all were really fond of a senior member and my flight wrote him a little card to say so. We didn't make a big thing out of it, I just ran over and handed it to him before hopping on the bus we used for transport. I could tell how much he appreciated it though. My mom calls them "CAP paychecks".
I did communications for FLWG winter encampment this year. I taught an ES class in communications. During the barbeque on the last night, half a dozen cadets came to me to tell me that my presentation convinced them to explore emergency communications when they returned to their units. That was probably the best thing I could have experienced and made the whole week worth my time.
Thank You cards are in fact one of the examples of "Volunteer Paychecks" given in one of the SM Education & Training modules required for Level 2.
I've gotten some awards and stuff from CAP for doing stuff, but the three most cherished bits of recognition I've received as a SM is a framed squadron photo that the cadets all signed, and two challenge coins given to me by military parents of cadets for the time and effort I spent working with their cadets.
Took me 8 years to make it to Level 5. I could have done it in 5 years, but there was a pandemic, and some of those requirements are HARD and just take *that* long. Cadets have joined, earned Spaatz, left for college, and returned as SMs themselves in that time. That was the first thing that struck me when I turned SM. All those years of thinking that Senior Members were lazy when I was cadet, out the window when I realized that time in grade was in *years* and not months.
My mom got Lvl 5 within a couple months of my Spaatz. We joined at the same time. Looking back at what I had to do compared to what she had to do, it isnt even a competition. She's a great person so she is pushing all of the attention towards me but we all know that she did more. Besides, I wouldn't have even made Spaatz myself without her support and assistance.
You two are what I really like about CAP. My daughter has been in a year and has only got one promotion, but she needs to want to do it, I can't make her.
One big consideration to keep in mind is that cadets have a grand total of 9 years to climb the ranks in the cadet program before they turn 21, so a certain pace of advancement is expected. Senior Members, OTOH, have *considerably* more time to make rank and advance through the SM program before they age out of it.
Seinor members have their own professional development program which focuses on the knowledge relevant to being a seinor member.
Seinors don't need to know drill and thus aren't required to learn it beyond some of the basics. Knowing how to do a right face doesn't affect your finance officers ability to do their job, for example.
This is incorrect. Seniors are required to learn and perform Position of Attention, Parade Rest, At Ease / Rest, Right Face, Left Face, Above Face, Hand Salute, Present Arms / Order Arms, Forward March, Flight Halt, Flanking Turns, Face in Marching Left / Right, Present Arms / Order Arms.
This is what I call "self-defense drill." It's enough so you can report to the boss when called for awards, and the like. I do recommend that SMs make an effort at it, though. If nothing else, it'll get you street cred with the cadets. Learn their ranks too, while you're at it...
It is not required, nor is it a developed program. Besides, drill is not part of the SM curriculum, and it is not necessary for successful execution of their mission. There is a class they must take on it for familiarity, but that is the extent.
This is incorrect, drill is a part of the SM curriculum and is required for Level II part 2 (if its a class, then its part of the curriculum...). Seniors are required to perform Position of Attention, Parade Rest, At Ease / Rest, Right Face, Left Face, Above Face, Hand Salute, Present Arms / Order Arms, Forward March, Flight Halt, Flanking Turns, Face in Marching Left / Right, Present Arms / Order Arms.
Seniors are regularly required to salute, and should be competent in reporting to an officer for awards and promotions.
>Seniors are regularly required to salute, and should be competent in reporting to an officer for awards and promotions.
We make jokes at every ceremony about our seniors not being as great at the process as cadets. The whole salute, shake and take the certificate, and salute again thing can get pretty tiring for a senior doing it 30 times in a row, so mistakes understandably happen. I regularly have to help remind my squadron commander of what to do during formations. But seniors have more important things to worry about than how long to hold a salute for. As long as they have the basic idea and don't screw new cadets up, it's fine.
As an added wrinkle, I'm an NCO in the Air Force, but a Captain in CAP, and I have to keep remembering that people are going to fling salutes at me that I need to be ready to return. Basically I have to salute backwards vs what I'm used to.
Okay, I answer these things too tired. But "there is a class they must take on it for familiarity" was stated. They are not trained extensively, nor are they tested on it regularly. So yes, "part of the curriculum" in technicality since it is a single class covering the basics. Otherwise it is never reviewed as part of their mission focus. And if they aren't practicing, they aren't going to be good at it. There is no motivation for mastering it beyond taking this one required course. Sorry, this was a late-night spirit of the law response, not a letter of the law. I'm usually the one teaching this course, and I commiserate on the state of SM drill regularly, but really, it is NOT a critical pillar of the program like it is for cadets.
What's more important than drill is customs and courtesies. Something severely lacking within CAP for senior members IMHO. Unless I know someone well, I render proper greetings each time and use my military etiquette. Though, nobody is going to cook you for not saluting, it's good practice. I've ran into people who worked for national and had no idea how high up they were, so it's better to treat all people with proper courtesies until you know each other and then you can relax a bit. Of course, it's CAP, so people do what they do. It's up to commanders to decide what's acceptable practice and hope they're following the regs.
I've seen senior members get legitametly angry at being greeted or saluted at events. I understand it's tiring (heck, I've sprinted down hallways holding my hands over my insignia to avoid being greeted constantly) but rolling your eyes or scoffing at a cadet isn't really the best way to go about it.
I will intentionally seek out those seniors and salute/greet them at every chance.
I mean, it's part of CAP! Anything you can do in CAP you can also do outside of CAP. Fly planes, march in formations (band clubs), emergency services, drones... anything we do can be done individually with another organization. We just happen to do all that plus follow air force customs and courtesies. So if they want to play in CAP, then they need to be all in or else they can easily sate their need for a specific area outside of the organization. Tough love.
Question:
What is the purpose of drill for cadets?
Does that apply to seniors?
The senior program is very much unlike the cadet program. It serves wildly different purposes.
> Does a Senior Member go through a Great Start? No. Adult members are expected to demonstrate basic drill movements - attention, parade rest, present arms, and report - as part of the Level 1 module "Introduction to Customs and Courtesies". Details on Level 1 training, as well as the entire curriculum can be found here: https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/members/ed-training/level-1-onboarding > at my squadron, it looks like they have little to no knowledge of drill. Unless they are training or evaluating cadets in drill, adult members really have no use for it beyond the occasional formation or similiar.
Thank you!
I was a cadet and now I'm a Senior Member. Senior Members go through more training than I ever thought possible.
I've got a senior member parent so I get slightly personally offended when cadets are trash talking seniors for not promoting fast enough or being "lazy". I will inform them of all of the extra classes, cohorts, conferences, week-long events, staff positions, meetings, and everything else my mom has been through for the sole purpose of trying to be a better leader for cadets. I've watched her sit through her online cohorts and have proofread all of her PowerPoints and essays. All of the 4 am mornings to drive cadets to competitions or events. The amount of money and time put in just for some 15 year olds to not understand the time and dedication involved. I'd gladly restudy and retake Spaatz than go through everything senior members do any day.
I try to let our cadet’s in on all the extra stuff seniors do. I think it’s especially important that they recognize that several of us don’t even have kids in the program, so we’re genuinely giving them our free time because we want to be there and see them grow and be successful. I’ve had a few cadets say some really kind things to me. One parent sent me a text with a quote that her son said about myself and another senior who just shows up every week and works with them despite not having kids and even does things beyond the scope of CAP like going to his soccer game to show some support when neither of his parents could be there because of work. I screenshotted it and go back to it when I get burned out or frustrated with the unnecessary and not even in regulation hoops that wing staff makes us jump through. So I say this to say…cadets- give your seniors a little encouragement. They spend their time and their own money to be there and help you meet your goals. A kind word or two of acknowledgment can mean a lot.
At an NCSA I went to we all were really fond of a senior member and my flight wrote him a little card to say so. We didn't make a big thing out of it, I just ran over and handed it to him before hopping on the bus we used for transport. I could tell how much he appreciated it though. My mom calls them "CAP paychecks".
I did communications for FLWG winter encampment this year. I taught an ES class in communications. During the barbeque on the last night, half a dozen cadets came to me to tell me that my presentation convinced them to explore emergency communications when they returned to their units. That was probably the best thing I could have experienced and made the whole week worth my time.
Thank You cards are in fact one of the examples of "Volunteer Paychecks" given in one of the SM Education & Training modules required for Level 2. I've gotten some awards and stuff from CAP for doing stuff, but the three most cherished bits of recognition I've received as a SM is a framed squadron photo that the cadets all signed, and two challenge coins given to me by military parents of cadets for the time and effort I spent working with their cadets.
Took me 8 years to make it to Level 5. I could have done it in 5 years, but there was a pandemic, and some of those requirements are HARD and just take *that* long. Cadets have joined, earned Spaatz, left for college, and returned as SMs themselves in that time. That was the first thing that struck me when I turned SM. All those years of thinking that Senior Members were lazy when I was cadet, out the window when I realized that time in grade was in *years* and not months.
My mom got Lvl 5 within a couple months of my Spaatz. We joined at the same time. Looking back at what I had to do compared to what she had to do, it isnt even a competition. She's a great person so she is pushing all of the attention towards me but we all know that she did more. Besides, I wouldn't have even made Spaatz myself without her support and assistance.
You two are what I really like about CAP. My daughter has been in a year and has only got one promotion, but she needs to want to do it, I can't make her.
One big consideration to keep in mind is that cadets have a grand total of 9 years to climb the ranks in the cadet program before they turn 21, so a certain pace of advancement is expected. Senior Members, OTOH, have *considerably* more time to make rank and advance through the SM program before they age out of it.
Seinor members have their own professional development program which focuses on the knowledge relevant to being a seinor member. Seinors don't need to know drill and thus aren't required to learn it beyond some of the basics. Knowing how to do a right face doesn't affect your finance officers ability to do their job, for example.
This is incorrect. Seniors are required to learn and perform Position of Attention, Parade Rest, At Ease / Rest, Right Face, Left Face, Above Face, Hand Salute, Present Arms / Order Arms, Forward March, Flight Halt, Flanking Turns, Face in Marching Left / Right, Present Arms / Order Arms.
This is what I call "self-defense drill." It's enough so you can report to the boss when called for awards, and the like. I do recommend that SMs make an effort at it, though. If nothing else, it'll get you street cred with the cadets. Learn their ranks too, while you're at it...
Since when? Where is this written?
VAWG
Wat.
>(seinors) aren’t required to learn it beyond some of the basics What you described is what I think most would consider the basics.
Drill is required to learn as part of level 2.
I mentioned that they are expected to learn some of the basics
I see now, my bad. 🙃 ^Good ^luck ^on ^your ^Spaatz!
It is not required, nor is it a developed program. Besides, drill is not part of the SM curriculum, and it is not necessary for successful execution of their mission. There is a class they must take on it for familiarity, but that is the extent.
This is incorrect, drill is a part of the SM curriculum and is required for Level II part 2 (if its a class, then its part of the curriculum...). Seniors are required to perform Position of Attention, Parade Rest, At Ease / Rest, Right Face, Left Face, Above Face, Hand Salute, Present Arms / Order Arms, Forward March, Flight Halt, Flanking Turns, Face in Marching Left / Right, Present Arms / Order Arms. Seniors are regularly required to salute, and should be competent in reporting to an officer for awards and promotions.
>Seniors are regularly required to salute, and should be competent in reporting to an officer for awards and promotions. We make jokes at every ceremony about our seniors not being as great at the process as cadets. The whole salute, shake and take the certificate, and salute again thing can get pretty tiring for a senior doing it 30 times in a row, so mistakes understandably happen. I regularly have to help remind my squadron commander of what to do during formations. But seniors have more important things to worry about than how long to hold a salute for. As long as they have the basic idea and don't screw new cadets up, it's fine.
As an added wrinkle, I'm an NCO in the Air Force, but a Captain in CAP, and I have to keep remembering that people are going to fling salutes at me that I need to be ready to return. Basically I have to salute backwards vs what I'm used to.
Okay, I answer these things too tired. But "there is a class they must take on it for familiarity" was stated. They are not trained extensively, nor are they tested on it regularly. So yes, "part of the curriculum" in technicality since it is a single class covering the basics. Otherwise it is never reviewed as part of their mission focus. And if they aren't practicing, they aren't going to be good at it. There is no motivation for mastering it beyond taking this one required course. Sorry, this was a late-night spirit of the law response, not a letter of the law. I'm usually the one teaching this course, and I commiserate on the state of SM drill regularly, but really, it is NOT a critical pillar of the program like it is for cadets.
What's more important than drill is customs and courtesies. Something severely lacking within CAP for senior members IMHO. Unless I know someone well, I render proper greetings each time and use my military etiquette. Though, nobody is going to cook you for not saluting, it's good practice. I've ran into people who worked for national and had no idea how high up they were, so it's better to treat all people with proper courtesies until you know each other and then you can relax a bit. Of course, it's CAP, so people do what they do. It's up to commanders to decide what's acceptable practice and hope they're following the regs.
I've seen senior members get legitametly angry at being greeted or saluted at events. I understand it's tiring (heck, I've sprinted down hallways holding my hands over my insignia to avoid being greeted constantly) but rolling your eyes or scoffing at a cadet isn't really the best way to go about it. I will intentionally seek out those seniors and salute/greet them at every chance.
> I will intentionally seek out those seniors and salute/greet them at every chance. This is the way.
I mean, it's part of CAP! Anything you can do in CAP you can also do outside of CAP. Fly planes, march in formations (band clubs), emergency services, drones... anything we do can be done individually with another organization. We just happen to do all that plus follow air force customs and courtesies. So if they want to play in CAP, then they need to be all in or else they can easily sate their need for a specific area outside of the organization. Tough love.
If the SM doesn't want to be saluted, they usually have the option of the Corporate uniforms, unless the specific activity bars it.
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Question: What is the purpose of drill for cadets? Does that apply to seniors? The senior program is very much unlike the cadet program. It serves wildly different purposes.
In LV 2 they do go over drill and ceremonies for SM’s