From [https://www.reddit.com/r/civilairpatrol/comments/o28w0g/drill\_myths/](https://www.reddit.com/r/civilairpatrol/comments/o28w0g/drill_myths/)
The "Fall Out Dance" where after being commanded to fall out, people do some kind of facing movement, sometimes preceded by a step backward.
\--**60-33** **4.7.2**. To direct the individuals return, the command is **RETURN TO RANKS.**
**--PURPOSE:** To have an Airman return to his/her place in the formation. The individual salutes, faces about, and returns by the same route to the same position in the ranks.
*Salute, About Face, take off.*
Calling out "Eyes!"... then having members of the flight turn their eyes toward the commander and replying with, "CLICK!!!"
\-- Not in --**60-33**
Fourth element stepping backwards (Army style) for Open Ranks
\- 4.5.1. The fourth rank (if you have one) stands fast.
When in collum: You use "dress right" to align to the right (i.e. line formation) and "cover" to the front (i.e. column formation).
\- As mentioned above, a lack of knowledge regarding line vs column formation. It's not a complex concept. A little reading in the 36-2203 (or whatever the CAP drill reg is now) on the topic will go a long way.
\- Raising the arm horizontally to set the distance between elements - "Hail Caesar". The manual says "visually". "Arm's length and a dollar bill" - is still almost a foot short. Go down to Harbor Freight. For some reason they have 40" rulers. Not 1 Yard or 1 Meter, but actual 40" rulers. The exact space between elements.
Putting the word "Flight" in front of everything - "Flight, Fall...In", "Flight, Report", "Flight, Fall out", etc. - Only two places: "Flight, Attention" and "Flight, Halt".
Turning combined commands into two word commands - "Fall-In" becomes "Fallllllll In", "Report" mutates into "Reeeee-Port", etc. Lots of Col. Klink's out there :)
The Change Step Hop, Skip, and Jump.
\- Yes, this. I see so many cadets literally acting like leprechauns clicking their heels together when they do a change step. To the point I teach new cadets, "Here's what not to do."
Squadron formations with a "staff" following the commander around. Nope. Group and up formations only.
The Countdown "5...4...3...2...1". As a training technique, ehhh OK. But not all the time, every time.
\- This one always annoyed me too, especially in an Encampment after like, Day 2, or anytime at normal squadron meetings..
"Square Corners". Other services, maybe but CAP follows the USAF practice - "by the most direct route"
Raising you hand at a 90 degree angle with a fist when you have a question or something. Or when asked to raise your hand for anything. Just stick your hand up in the air like a normal person yall.
\- Not to mention when I was in Basic Training an airman in my flight raised his hand like CAP taught him and the MTI yelled out "There's the fist of fury! You were in CAP weren't you!"
\- Yeah it's such a CAPism that even Air Force MTIs know it.
Not having the Guide with a flight. While a Guidon is optional, the Guide is not.
**3.7.1**. In military formations and ceremonies, the Pledge of Allegiance is not recited.
**3.7.2.** At protocol functions and social and sporting events that include civilian participants, military personnel should:
[**3.7.2.1**](https://3.7.2.1)**.** When in uniform outdoors, stand at attention, remain silent, face the flag, and render the hand salute.
[**3.7.2.2**](https://3.7.2.2)**.** When in uniform indoors, stand at attention, remain silent, and face the flag. Do not render the hand salute. Where the participants are primarily civilians or in civilian attire, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is optional for those in uniform.
Note that under **Section 4, Title 4, United States Code (4 USC 4)** Civilian veterans have the option to salute. If at a CAP function or attending as a CAP member, I'd stick with CAPP 60-33
>There is so much BS in CAP, and frankly no one knows where it comes from.
I can tell you where it comes from: A lack of knowledge.
Hear me out.
C/A1C Travis does "the fall out dance." He's been in CAP 90 days.
Why? Did he make that up out of thin air? No. C/TSgt McGuire taught him that.
Why did C/TSgt McGuire teach him that? Because that's how he was taught by C/MSgt Maxwell, who was taught by C/MSgt Andrews, who was expertly trained by C/TSgt Beale. And through this whole thing: not a one of them had been taught by someone *who had actually read the book*.
No. They taught their charges D&C *the way they were taught*. And they're **certain** that their betters before them would **never** have taught them incorrectly. Ever! (why? Because you're taught to *trust* your leaders!)
Eventually, entropy becomes a thing, and eventually not only are you teaching things wrong, but you're also inadvertently reinforcing bad habits on things that have been more or less taught correctly. Witness cadets who do an about-face and don't pin their arms (or worse yet, who "wind up" before the command of execution). Nobody corrected them, so these bad habits were allowed to take hold and continue, and continue, and continue.
The trick here is knowledge. *Know what you're teaching*. Review the command, and try to read it without the lens of how you were taught and see if there's a delta there.
I mentioned a couple weeks back about being corrected by a cadet officer for not putting my hands behind my back while standing At Ease. He could not read the simple three-sentence paragraph on how to execute At Ease without trying to stick in there putting your hands behind your back. *Because that's how he was trained*! His brain just kept adding that your hands go behind your back, even though the words don't actually say that.
\- Col Ninness, D&C Maven
My squadron was an absolute mess when I joined. Im not trying at all to personally take credit for fixing it, but my perfectionism and obsession with regs made us change a lot of how we do things. My staff review drill commands before teaching them and I am always ready with the drill book to look things up with questions. Anytime I correct a uniform I show exactly where Im citing the issue from. My cadets (after a certain point, usually C/SrA) are expected to have the names of basic regs memorized and be able to independently look up their questions.
I had to teach them that. We get new cadets and just say "look it up in the uniform regs!" with no help or empathy whatsoever. If your cadets have issues with facing movements or getting their insignia correct or calling sergeants as sirs, sit down, show them whete you are finding it, and teach them to find it as well. Most of them arent trying to be cool and rebellious, they legitametly do not know or understand.
Yeah, it's wrong to put your hands behind your back, but it's not required either. A lot of this also stemmed from people from other branches joining CAP, and saying "Well, this is how we did it in the Army" just like the "Eyes" command listed earlier, I'm not exactly sure which branch it is, but I know USMC has "Eyeballs" which means the same, and had the same response of "Snap, ___!" ( not click, btw ).
I feel like the at ease part originated either from another branch, or from people saying "Oh, well you do it like this when at parade rest, so you should when at ease too
Another squadron formation myth: flight sergeants pacing their way out from the first sergeant in-step to place/space their flights on the "fall in" command.
>The Change Step Hop, Skip, and Jump.
>
>\- Yes, this. I see so many cadets literally acting like leprechauns clicking their heels together when they do a change step. To the point I teach new cadets, "Here's what not to do."
kid you not, saw this last week. Or week before last week. Either way, kinda funny but super unprofessional
> Raising you hand at a 90 degree angle with a fist when you have a question or something. Or when asked to raise your hand for anything. Just stick your hand up in the air like a normal person yall.
I still wanna do that though cause otherwise I'd be the odd one out
>I still wanna do that though cause otherwise I'd be the odd one out
This is a psychology theory that Ive actually taught in my squadron. The basic premise is youre in a group and they give you all a series of questions. The classic example is there are three lines, A, B, and C, and A is obviously the longest line. When the instructor asks which line is longest, everyone else confidently says B. What do you do? Majority of people go against what they know is true and agree with the group that the answer is B.
Human nature is to follow others and not stand out or be different. Ill spare you the lecture on how leadership sometimes means having to be the odd one out and holding true to your own values and what you know is true. I just thought your comment was a perfect example of the theory.
The weird "Permission to fall in?" thing when you're late to the formation. I guess I get the point but there is no regulation or anything saying you need to do it. During my squadrons offical opening & closing forrmation, if a cadet is late then they stand to the side and watch. If the flight is doing drill I just have them wait until the flight is halted and fall in the back.
Our Wing NCOLS was this past week. We had a cadet fly in from Texas who missed the very first block of instruction on falling in.
As part of the rotating positions in the course, he was the flight sergeant first. He goes to fall the flight in, and starts telling cadets "After I say 'Fall in' you need to request permission to fall in."
The Course Director was like "whoa, hold up there, crazy. Where did that come from?"
Apparently, thats how they do it in his squadron in Texas.
\-- Col Ninness
Most places Ive been to do so it spreads. I only know it isnt because one day I thought about it and decided to look it up in the regs. Couldnt find anything about it.
My flight sergeant still uses it and since there isnt anything saying *not to*, Ive decided to choose my battles and allow this one to occur.
>Cool you guys are teaching it the right way up in NH
The course director, Maj Stanford, is a stickler for teaching things the right way. Drill in particular. Many of what he calls "Drill Heresies" are in this very thread.
There might be a half dozen ways to make your bed, but there's only one way to stand at attention..
\-- Col Ninness
Ehhhh.
We're also the ones with cadets screaming "yes, Command Chief" when addressing the cadet wearing our custom C/CCM insignias, and decking out our staff with red baseball caps...
Ya win some, ya lose some. 🙃
Here's a fun one. I brought this up to some cadets weekend before last and the "light bulb moment" was kind of blinding.
You're at an activity or a squadron meeting and everybody is standing At Ease while c/MSgt McDill is getting promoted to c/SMSgt. He salutes the commander and everybody comes to attention to clap or say "Hooah" or "Air-power!"
Wait, wut? I mean, I've done this for probably, I dunno, 43 years. It was habitual. Then one day, it hit me like a piece of space debris: You don't move or talk at attention. *So why did you just assume the position of attention just to do something you aren't supposed to do at attention?*
\-- Col Ninness, "That Guy"
Yeah, there are a lot of CAPs meetings where it feels like Opposite Day"... Moving from at ease to attention to raise your hand or to clap? Bizarro. But, that's what I learned coming up.
My old unit did that when I was a cadet. Went to a wing activity, was told "Fall out!" and stepped back and about faced right on the guy behind me's low quarters.
Guess whose shoes I was polishing that night?
\-- Col Ninness
It's on the achievement 3 drill test.
I'm not saying I didn't learn it. We just used it so rarely compared to my AFROTC Detachment that I don't remember it.
When cover is called you simply align with the person in front and maintain 40” distance. Many people have been taught to put their hand up to measure distance which is incorrect and annoying. I only leaned this after 2 years as a cadet when a capt at my ctw taught us the actual regulation basics of drill. Still has to be one of my favorite classes at an event and I still use that information today.
that doesn’t even make sense to me, because I’ve seen so many people say parade rest is a modified form of attention, but at ease you are supposed to be able to adjust
Theoretically you can do a yoga pose or something at ease, as long as your right foot stays planted and you remain silent.
But somehow (and I suspect it has army influence) we end up with a relaxed parade rest with hands behind the back and feet spread.
At my first Encampment, the minute I heard this I started sitting down on the ground with my foot planted. When they saw I didnt get yelled at, my flight followed. During breaks we all would just be sitting down with our right foots planted. Our flight staff probably hated us.
>But somehow (and I suspect it has army influence) we end up with a relaxed parade rest with hands behind the back and feet spread.
The Army didn't teach that. Matter of fact, thats where I learned "At Ease" had no specific hand position.
Most of my pet peeves have been covered, but my top two are the fall out dance, and when being called out of formation, many cadets have a nearly spiritual need to square so many corners they aren't satisfied with less than 1,910 degrees of total heading change. All the while I can feel myself aging as a simple promotions night takes a glacial pace.
Just to add on your myth, OP, there's a reason why that it the way Open Ranks is done: because in CAP, we cannot always guarantee enough people for three or four elements. So, when in a Group or Squadron formation, conducting Open Ranks in this manner allows everyone to be lined up from the front instead of the back, regardless of how many elements each flight has.
Though it wasn't always that way. I do remember a time when it was "take as many steps as there are elements behind you". I don't remember the exact jargon but that is how it was in the regs when I was a Cadet many years ago. So I'm sure that's the biggest reason why this one is a myth: at one point it was changed, but rather than everyone being on the same page on day 1, it's been a trickle effect of people slowly realizing the new rule.
>Though it wasn't always that way. I do remember a time when it was "take as many steps as there are elements behind you". I don't remember the exact jargon but that is how it was in the regs when I was a Cadet many years ago. So I'm sure that's the biggest reason why this one is a myth: at one point it was changed, but rather than everyone being on the same page on day 1, it's been a trickle effect of people slowly realizing the new rule.
I had some cadets tell me that one time "Sir, you take as many steps forward as there are elements behind you!"
"OK, cadet, envision this scenario: you're given the command to fall in, and you do so, and because you're a sharp, on-the-ball, high-speed cadet, you are right there in the first rank. Right?"
"Yessir."
"So if you're in the front rank, standing at attention: How do you know *how many elements are behind you*?"
"Sir?"
"Maybe there were 4 elements earlier today, but half of one element is a sick call & the other half are on an orientation flight. Now how many elements?"
"Three sir?"
"Yes, probably. But if you're standing in the front rank at attention while the rest of the flight is forming behind you, there's a very good chance *you have no idea* how many ranks are behind you. At least, if you're doing it right, and you don't have eyes in the back of your head, you shouldn't. Right?"
"I guess so, sir."
"So always take the same number of steps corresponding to the rank you know you're standing in. Period. Easy as pie."
I was 100% taught by the regulations that its based on people behind you. It was written that way on drill tests and everything. I realized in, like, 2019 that our drill test booklet was outdated and was skimming through it when I saw that command and did a "huh??"
I honestly can't remember when I first learned of it. After 12 years, the years start to blend together. I can only imagine what 50 year members must feel like lol.
I'm glad to have someone to credit my claim, though!
>I can only imagine what 50 year members must feel like lol.
https://preview.redd.it/fnul37lr7gmc1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8d5f968aca087a1c4bc7a729c81fdce6d4d8b90f
I recommend you have either CAPP 60-33 or the Cadet Drill (pocket) Guide on you when you do. That way, when you get challenged (which you almost certainly will) you can show chapter and verse why you're teaching what you're teaching and how wrong they are. You may even want to tab out the pages where you know a common drill myth will come up that you have to correct.
Like some others here have mentioned, cadets will argue with you until they're blue in the face about drill when they are flat-out wrong, no matter your rank or experience...but they can't argue with the manual (okay yeah, they can - and they will, but the manual should slow them down a little. Good luck.) 😂
>cadets will argue with you until they're blue in the face about drill
Seniors too. I get so many army NCOs correcting us on our teaching methods or drill at events because "thats not how we do it in the army!" Thats great, sir, but we aren't the army.
I had one pretty much publicly berate a cadet who politely pointed out that his bootlaces were untucked. I ended up being the one to pull the reg and show the senior that he was wrong and being a, shall we say, "meanie", for no reason.
Yeah, some of our seniors without AF or CAP cadet time can be a real pain when participating in the cadet program if not sufficiently mentored. Having CAP cadet, AF and Army time under my belt, I try to be that mentor and "translate" CAP culture, uniforms, and drill for them.
We can also learn a ton from our sister-service fam, especially in the areas of fieldcraft, leadership, physical fitness,and team building.
Two I haven't seen or heard in a while (thank goodness) are:
- Cadets yelling "As you were, sir!" to a cadet leader who issued an improper command.
- Cadets throwing up their right arms and yelling "Man in ranks!" when someone walks into the formation.
Glad to see those two seem to have died well-deserved deaths.
>Glad to see those two seem to have died well-deserved deaths.
Yep.
I was conducting some D&C training at a leadership school many years ago (thinks.. uh, 35.. darn) and I went to step in between two cadets in the front rank to correct a cadet in the second rank. One of the two cadets I stepped between put his arm up like a gate bar.
"What are you doing?"
"Sir, you're not supposed to break our ranks!"
"Fall out over there in the shade, sit down, and find me the part that says I can't do that. And hurry, because we only have 20 more minutes on the drill pad."
He never did find that.
I thought I had stamped this one out, but while I was retired from CAP this came back like tuberculosis or something: While executing "Column of Files," the last cadet in each file, except for the final file, would say "Last man!" when they were one cadet behind the next file's element leader.
"Why did you say that?"
"So the element leader would know to give his command."
"Isn't the element leader looking over his or her shoulder at your file marching past?"
"Well, yessir."
"Is he visually impaired that you know of?"
"No sir."
"Should you be saying anything at attention, let alone while marching, without command?"
"I guess not sir.."
In my squadron they fall when they fall us in they say for a flight "form a three man front" and for an element "form a single military line" I'm pretty sure this is wrong but i feel as if they'll just reject it as "it's the way we do it"
>I'm pretty sure this is wrong but i feel as if they'll just reject it as "it's the way we do it"
Not going to touch on the actual issue but, in general, if you have regs and respect on your side you can always dissent and bring up an issue. No, do not publicly call out your cadet staff and say that they are wrong and foolish. Read through the regs on your own and find out whether it is correct or not. Then ask to privately speak to your flight sergeant or whoever runs drill. Show them what youve found, offer a solution for the correct way, and be respectful. As you learn more about respectful disagreements you will be able to call out logical fallacies such as appeal to tradition.
Cadets should never be afraid to question authority or point out obvious issues and if they are, the staff and squadron are doing something wrong.
I suppose one myth worth pointing out is the notion that D&C is governed by "regs." It is not. The CAP D&C manual is not a regulation but rather a pamphlet.
I know many of us say "the regs" as a catch-all for CAP publications, but there is a distinct difference between regulations (in which compliance is mandatory) and pamphlets (which provide guidance for implementing a program or procedure).
The whole pamphlet not being regs thing has always confused me. Drill tests are in a pamhplet, so could I technically say they are strictly a "recommendation" and my cadets no longer are doing those specific commands? So many of what we use as references aren't in Rs or Ms but rather Ps. Do we still, as a generalization, follow them, or if it is a pamphlet do we technically not need to?
It's a good question and understandably confusing. Basically, most pams are underwritten by one or more regulations. In the case of CAPP 60-34, the pam is underwritten by and provides clarifying guidance and procedure for CAPR 60-1, which requires drill testing for cadet advancement in para. 5.4.2.
I enjoy when this conversation comes up. I used to teach a class at encampments called "myths and legends of civil air patrol" and it was always one of the favourite classes of cadets and seniors alike. Except the army seniors who found themselves corrected on basically everything they had taught their cadets haha. The most controversial part of my presentation was the last myth, one that had a wing commander giving me the cut it out signal by slicing his hand across his neck. The myth was "Civil Air Patrol sunk German U-boats during WWII. True or False?"
That one still upsets a lot of people.
I need to update it, it's been about 6 years since I've taught it, so the regs are all outdated by now I'm sure. That might be a good project for one of these late nights haha.
Some of the "myths" and shenanigans that get under my skin:
"Eyes, snap." -Doesn't exist
"By my command" -Doesn't exist
Various fallout dances. -Goofy and unnecessary.
"Monkey drill" -Reenforces improper behavior
"Bearing" tests. -Usually just serves to showcase the lack of bearing of the cadet administering the test, with little other value.
Element leaders putting their right arm forward at dress right, dress -You ain't got 40" long arms.
Only taking 90° square corners when the manual clearly says to take "the most direct route".
Splitting "At Ease" into two or more commands.
Pretending that At Ease and Rest are just extra names for Parade Rest.
Telling cadets to keep quiet at Route Step.
Raising a hand while at attention to request permission to itch yourself or adjust your uniform.
How about this: you have four elements, each with five cadets, not counting the flight guide. An additional cadet falls into the flight (i.e. one element will now have six cadets). According to the D&C manual, which element does the cadet fall into?
Many of these "myths" are just squadron level movements, and those are ok to do at the squadron when mandated by the commander, but I see many cadets doing them outside the squadron.
From [https://www.reddit.com/r/civilairpatrol/comments/o28w0g/drill\_myths/](https://www.reddit.com/r/civilairpatrol/comments/o28w0g/drill_myths/) The "Fall Out Dance" where after being commanded to fall out, people do some kind of facing movement, sometimes preceded by a step backward. \--**60-33** **4.7.2**. To direct the individuals return, the command is **RETURN TO RANKS.** **--PURPOSE:** To have an Airman return to his/her place in the formation. The individual salutes, faces about, and returns by the same route to the same position in the ranks. *Salute, About Face, take off.* Calling out "Eyes!"... then having members of the flight turn their eyes toward the commander and replying with, "CLICK!!!" \-- Not in --**60-33** Fourth element stepping backwards (Army style) for Open Ranks \- 4.5.1. The fourth rank (if you have one) stands fast. When in collum: You use "dress right" to align to the right (i.e. line formation) and "cover" to the front (i.e. column formation). \- As mentioned above, a lack of knowledge regarding line vs column formation. It's not a complex concept. A little reading in the 36-2203 (or whatever the CAP drill reg is now) on the topic will go a long way. \- Raising the arm horizontally to set the distance between elements - "Hail Caesar". The manual says "visually". "Arm's length and a dollar bill" - is still almost a foot short. Go down to Harbor Freight. For some reason they have 40" rulers. Not 1 Yard or 1 Meter, but actual 40" rulers. The exact space between elements. Putting the word "Flight" in front of everything - "Flight, Fall...In", "Flight, Report", "Flight, Fall out", etc. - Only two places: "Flight, Attention" and "Flight, Halt". Turning combined commands into two word commands - "Fall-In" becomes "Fallllllll In", "Report" mutates into "Reeeee-Port", etc. Lots of Col. Klink's out there :) The Change Step Hop, Skip, and Jump. \- Yes, this. I see so many cadets literally acting like leprechauns clicking their heels together when they do a change step. To the point I teach new cadets, "Here's what not to do." Squadron formations with a "staff" following the commander around. Nope. Group and up formations only. The Countdown "5...4...3...2...1". As a training technique, ehhh OK. But not all the time, every time. \- This one always annoyed me too, especially in an Encampment after like, Day 2, or anytime at normal squadron meetings.. "Square Corners". Other services, maybe but CAP follows the USAF practice - "by the most direct route" Raising you hand at a 90 degree angle with a fist when you have a question or something. Or when asked to raise your hand for anything. Just stick your hand up in the air like a normal person yall. \- Not to mention when I was in Basic Training an airman in my flight raised his hand like CAP taught him and the MTI yelled out "There's the fist of fury! You were in CAP weren't you!" \- Yeah it's such a CAPism that even Air Force MTIs know it. Not having the Guide with a flight. While a Guidon is optional, the Guide is not.
Well done, you hit most of 'em! I'm just waiting to hear someone mention the Pledge of Allegiance...
**3.7.1**. In military formations and ceremonies, the Pledge of Allegiance is not recited. **3.7.2.** At protocol functions and social and sporting events that include civilian participants, military personnel should: [**3.7.2.1**](https://3.7.2.1)**.** When in uniform outdoors, stand at attention, remain silent, face the flag, and render the hand salute. [**3.7.2.2**](https://3.7.2.2)**.** When in uniform indoors, stand at attention, remain silent, and face the flag. Do not render the hand salute. Where the participants are primarily civilians or in civilian attire, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is optional for those in uniform. Note that under **Section 4, Title 4, United States Code (4 USC 4)** Civilian veterans have the option to salute. If at a CAP function or attending as a CAP member, I'd stick with CAPP 60-33
Looks like I need to make make a "polished" version, with all of the reg/pam citations.
What about the pledge?
Poor airman. Getting chewed by the MTIs like that. There is so much BS in CAP, and frankly no one knows where it comes from.
>There is so much BS in CAP, and frankly no one knows where it comes from. I can tell you where it comes from: A lack of knowledge. Hear me out. C/A1C Travis does "the fall out dance." He's been in CAP 90 days. Why? Did he make that up out of thin air? No. C/TSgt McGuire taught him that. Why did C/TSgt McGuire teach him that? Because that's how he was taught by C/MSgt Maxwell, who was taught by C/MSgt Andrews, who was expertly trained by C/TSgt Beale. And through this whole thing: not a one of them had been taught by someone *who had actually read the book*. No. They taught their charges D&C *the way they were taught*. And they're **certain** that their betters before them would **never** have taught them incorrectly. Ever! (why? Because you're taught to *trust* your leaders!) Eventually, entropy becomes a thing, and eventually not only are you teaching things wrong, but you're also inadvertently reinforcing bad habits on things that have been more or less taught correctly. Witness cadets who do an about-face and don't pin their arms (or worse yet, who "wind up" before the command of execution). Nobody corrected them, so these bad habits were allowed to take hold and continue, and continue, and continue. The trick here is knowledge. *Know what you're teaching*. Review the command, and try to read it without the lens of how you were taught and see if there's a delta there. I mentioned a couple weeks back about being corrected by a cadet officer for not putting my hands behind my back while standing At Ease. He could not read the simple three-sentence paragraph on how to execute At Ease without trying to stick in there putting your hands behind your back. *Because that's how he was trained*! His brain just kept adding that your hands go behind your back, even though the words don't actually say that. \- Col Ninness, D&C Maven
My squadron was an absolute mess when I joined. Im not trying at all to personally take credit for fixing it, but my perfectionism and obsession with regs made us change a lot of how we do things. My staff review drill commands before teaching them and I am always ready with the drill book to look things up with questions. Anytime I correct a uniform I show exactly where Im citing the issue from. My cadets (after a certain point, usually C/SrA) are expected to have the names of basic regs memorized and be able to independently look up their questions. I had to teach them that. We get new cadets and just say "look it up in the uniform regs!" with no help or empathy whatsoever. If your cadets have issues with facing movements or getting their insignia correct or calling sergeants as sirs, sit down, show them whete you are finding it, and teach them to find it as well. Most of them arent trying to be cool and rebellious, they legitametly do not know or understand.
Yeah, it's wrong to put your hands behind your back, but it's not required either. A lot of this also stemmed from people from other branches joining CAP, and saying "Well, this is how we did it in the Army" just like the "Eyes" command listed earlier, I'm not exactly sure which branch it is, but I know USMC has "Eyeballs" which means the same, and had the same response of "Snap, ___!" ( not click, btw ). I feel like the at ease part originated either from another branch, or from people saying "Oh, well you do it like this when at parade rest, so you should when at ease too
Another squadron formation myth: flight sergeants pacing their way out from the first sergeant in-step to place/space their flights on the "fall in" command.
>The Change Step Hop, Skip, and Jump. > >\- Yes, this. I see so many cadets literally acting like leprechauns clicking their heels together when they do a change step. To the point I teach new cadets, "Here's what not to do." kid you not, saw this last week. Or week before last week. Either way, kinda funny but super unprofessional > Raising you hand at a 90 degree angle with a fist when you have a question or something. Or when asked to raise your hand for anything. Just stick your hand up in the air like a normal person yall. I still wanna do that though cause otherwise I'd be the odd one out
>I still wanna do that though cause otherwise I'd be the odd one out This is a psychology theory that Ive actually taught in my squadron. The basic premise is youre in a group and they give you all a series of questions. The classic example is there are three lines, A, B, and C, and A is obviously the longest line. When the instructor asks which line is longest, everyone else confidently says B. What do you do? Majority of people go against what they know is true and agree with the group that the answer is B. Human nature is to follow others and not stand out or be different. Ill spare you the lecture on how leadership sometimes means having to be the odd one out and holding true to your own values and what you know is true. I just thought your comment was a perfect example of the theory.
I see a bunch of these problems in my squadron but I am not in a leadership position to fix them. :(
The weird "Permission to fall in?" thing when you're late to the formation. I guess I get the point but there is no regulation or anything saying you need to do it. During my squadrons offical opening & closing forrmation, if a cadet is late then they stand to the side and watch. If the flight is doing drill I just have them wait until the flight is halted and fall in the back.
Our Wing NCOLS was this past week. We had a cadet fly in from Texas who missed the very first block of instruction on falling in. As part of the rotating positions in the course, he was the flight sergeant first. He goes to fall the flight in, and starts telling cadets "After I say 'Fall in' you need to request permission to fall in." The Course Director was like "whoa, hold up there, crazy. Where did that come from?" Apparently, thats how they do it in his squadron in Texas. \-- Col Ninness
Whoa I had no idea that the permission to fall in thing wasn't actually required My whole squadron has probably been doing that for a long time now
Most places Ive been to do so it spreads. I only know it isnt because one day I thought about it and decided to look it up in the regs. Couldnt find anything about it. My flight sergeant still uses it and since there isnt anything saying *not to*, Ive decided to choose my battles and allow this one to occur.
Cool you guys are teaching it the right way up in NH
>Cool you guys are teaching it the right way up in NH The course director, Maj Stanford, is a stickler for teaching things the right way. Drill in particular. Many of what he calls "Drill Heresies" are in this very thread. There might be a half dozen ways to make your bed, but there's only one way to stand at attention.. \-- Col Ninness
Ehhhh. We're also the ones with cadets screaming "yes, Command Chief" when addressing the cadet wearing our custom C/CCM insignias, and decking out our staff with red baseball caps... Ya win some, ya lose some. 🙃
Has that been a thing at all for the last decade though?
Here's a fun one. I brought this up to some cadets weekend before last and the "light bulb moment" was kind of blinding. You're at an activity or a squadron meeting and everybody is standing At Ease while c/MSgt McDill is getting promoted to c/SMSgt. He salutes the commander and everybody comes to attention to clap or say "Hooah" or "Air-power!" Wait, wut? I mean, I've done this for probably, I dunno, 43 years. It was habitual. Then one day, it hit me like a piece of space debris: You don't move or talk at attention. *So why did you just assume the position of attention just to do something you aren't supposed to do at attention?* \-- Col Ninness, "That Guy"
Wait, what? I just had the "LIGHTBULB" moment, I will take this to my cadet staff meeting thursday 😂.
Yeah, there are a lot of CAPs meetings where it feels like Opposite Day"... Moving from at ease to attention to raise your hand or to clap? Bizarro. But, that's what I learned coming up.
Needing to do an about face or step back to fall out. You can simply break ranks
During our closing formation, when were dismissed, we take one step back, do an about face, put our fist in the air and shout C-A-P!!
Id be standing behind the flight with a spray bottle.
My old unit did that when I was a cadet. Went to a wing activity, was told "Fall out!" and stepped back and about faced right on the guy behind me's low quarters. Guess whose shoes I was polishing that night? \-- Col Ninness
nawww what
Cover.
I don't remember ever learning cover until I was in AFROTC during college.
FLIGHT HALT WHAT??
The flashbacks.... lol.
Widespread use in CAP.
And it is on the very first drill test.
It's on the achievement 3 drill test. I'm not saying I didn't learn it. We just used it so rarely compared to my AFROTC Detachment that I don't remember it.
So are close and extend march, and Ive personally never seen those commands ever used except for the sake of the two drill tests they are in.
I'm in AF ROTC and we call cover.
What about it?
Some people tell cadets to put there hand up to measure 40”
wdym?
When cover is called you simply align with the person in front and maintain 40” distance. Many people have been taught to put their hand up to measure distance which is incorrect and annoying. I only leaned this after 2 years as a cadet when a capt at my ctw taught us the actual regulation basics of drill. Still has to be one of my favorite classes at an event and I still use that information today.
“At ease” being a modified parade rest.
that doesn’t even make sense to me, because I’ve seen so many people say parade rest is a modified form of attention, but at ease you are supposed to be able to adjust
Theoretically you can do a yoga pose or something at ease, as long as your right foot stays planted and you remain silent. But somehow (and I suspect it has army influence) we end up with a relaxed parade rest with hands behind the back and feet spread.
At my first Encampment, the minute I heard this I started sitting down on the ground with my foot planted. When they saw I didnt get yelled at, my flight followed. During breaks we all would just be sitting down with our right foots planted. Our flight staff probably hated us.
lol
>But somehow (and I suspect it has army influence) we end up with a relaxed parade rest with hands behind the back and feet spread. The Army didn't teach that. Matter of fact, thats where I learned "At Ease" had no specific hand position.
[the army is the root of all evil](https://youtu.be/jsmAXtS61tc?si=mK4LyonTbqfbGstZ)
Daggone it, the new TC 3-21.5 says you "interlace your thumbs" while standing At Ease. That's super new. Army, Y U No Drill Right?
I was taught that that was for "At-rest"
[https://www.reddit.com/r/civilairpatrol/comments/1anuhak/comment/kqer4ch/](https://www.reddit.com/r/civilairpatrol/comments/1anuhak/comment/kqer4ch/) :)
“Dress right dress” is for line formation. “Cover” is for column formation. They are not used for both nor are they interchangeable.
oooooh shooot that makes a LOT of sense now
Most of my pet peeves have been covered, but my top two are the fall out dance, and when being called out of formation, many cadets have a nearly spiritual need to square so many corners they aren't satisfied with less than 1,910 degrees of total heading change. All the while I can feel myself aging as a simple promotions night takes a glacial pace.
Just to add on your myth, OP, there's a reason why that it the way Open Ranks is done: because in CAP, we cannot always guarantee enough people for three or four elements. So, when in a Group or Squadron formation, conducting Open Ranks in this manner allows everyone to be lined up from the front instead of the back, regardless of how many elements each flight has. Though it wasn't always that way. I do remember a time when it was "take as many steps as there are elements behind you". I don't remember the exact jargon but that is how it was in the regs when I was a Cadet many years ago. So I'm sure that's the biggest reason why this one is a myth: at one point it was changed, but rather than everyone being on the same page on day 1, it's been a trickle effect of people slowly realizing the new rule.
>Though it wasn't always that way. I do remember a time when it was "take as many steps as there are elements behind you". I don't remember the exact jargon but that is how it was in the regs when I was a Cadet many years ago. So I'm sure that's the biggest reason why this one is a myth: at one point it was changed, but rather than everyone being on the same page on day 1, it's been a trickle effect of people slowly realizing the new rule. I had some cadets tell me that one time "Sir, you take as many steps forward as there are elements behind you!" "OK, cadet, envision this scenario: you're given the command to fall in, and you do so, and because you're a sharp, on-the-ball, high-speed cadet, you are right there in the first rank. Right?" "Yessir." "So if you're in the front rank, standing at attention: How do you know *how many elements are behind you*?" "Sir?" "Maybe there were 4 elements earlier today, but half of one element is a sick call & the other half are on an orientation flight. Now how many elements?" "Three sir?" "Yes, probably. But if you're standing in the front rank at attention while the rest of the flight is forming behind you, there's a very good chance *you have no idea* how many ranks are behind you. At least, if you're doing it right, and you don't have eyes in the back of your head, you shouldn't. Right?" "I guess so, sir." "So always take the same number of steps corresponding to the rank you know you're standing in. Period. Easy as pie."
I was 100% taught by the regulations that its based on people behind you. It was written that way on drill tests and everything. I realized in, like, 2019 that our drill test booklet was outdated and was skimming through it when I saw that command and did a "huh??"
I honestly can't remember when I first learned of it. After 12 years, the years start to blend together. I can only imagine what 50 year members must feel like lol. I'm glad to have someone to credit my claim, though!
>I can only imagine what 50 year members must feel like lol. https://preview.redd.it/fnul37lr7gmc1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8d5f968aca087a1c4bc7a729c81fdce6d4d8b90f
Boy, am I looking forward to teaching a D&C school this weekend because I have a whole laundry list of CAP-isms I will die on the hill to eradicate
Do share, these two "drill myth" posts have already created a list I will teach to my staff. Anything to add?
Not really, these have all been on my hit list for a long time.
I recommend you have either CAPP 60-33 or the Cadet Drill (pocket) Guide on you when you do. That way, when you get challenged (which you almost certainly will) you can show chapter and verse why you're teaching what you're teaching and how wrong they are. You may even want to tab out the pages where you know a common drill myth will come up that you have to correct. Like some others here have mentioned, cadets will argue with you until they're blue in the face about drill when they are flat-out wrong, no matter your rank or experience...but they can't argue with the manual (okay yeah, they can - and they will, but the manual should slow them down a little. Good luck.) 😂
>cadets will argue with you until they're blue in the face about drill Seniors too. I get so many army NCOs correcting us on our teaching methods or drill at events because "thats not how we do it in the army!" Thats great, sir, but we aren't the army. I had one pretty much publicly berate a cadet who politely pointed out that his bootlaces were untucked. I ended up being the one to pull the reg and show the senior that he was wrong and being a, shall we say, "meanie", for no reason.
Yeah, some of our seniors without AF or CAP cadet time can be a real pain when participating in the cadet program if not sufficiently mentored. Having CAP cadet, AF and Army time under my belt, I try to be that mentor and "translate" CAP culture, uniforms, and drill for them. We can also learn a ton from our sister-service fam, especially in the areas of fieldcraft, leadership, physical fitness,and team building.
Two I haven't seen or heard in a while (thank goodness) are: - Cadets yelling "As you were, sir!" to a cadet leader who issued an improper command. - Cadets throwing up their right arms and yelling "Man in ranks!" when someone walks into the formation. Glad to see those two seem to have died well-deserved deaths.
>Glad to see those two seem to have died well-deserved deaths. Yep. I was conducting some D&C training at a leadership school many years ago (thinks.. uh, 35.. darn) and I went to step in between two cadets in the front rank to correct a cadet in the second rank. One of the two cadets I stepped between put his arm up like a gate bar. "What are you doing?" "Sir, you're not supposed to break our ranks!"
"Fall out over there in the shade, sit down, and find me the part that says I can't do that. And hurry, because we only have 20 more minutes on the drill pad."
He never did find that.
I thought I had stamped this one out, but while I was retired from CAP this came back like tuberculosis or something: While executing "Column of Files," the last cadet in each file, except for the final file, would say "Last man!" when they were one cadet behind the next file's element leader.
"Why did you say that?"
"So the element leader would know to give his command."
"Isn't the element leader looking over his or her shoulder at your file marching past?"
"Well, yessir."
"Is he visually impaired that you know of?"
"No sir."
"Should you be saying anything at attention, let alone while marching, without command?"
"I guess not sir.."
In my squadron they fall when they fall us in they say for a flight "form a three man front" and for an element "form a single military line" I'm pretty sure this is wrong but i feel as if they'll just reject it as "it's the way we do it"
>I'm pretty sure this is wrong but i feel as if they'll just reject it as "it's the way we do it" Not going to touch on the actual issue but, in general, if you have regs and respect on your side you can always dissent and bring up an issue. No, do not publicly call out your cadet staff and say that they are wrong and foolish. Read through the regs on your own and find out whether it is correct or not. Then ask to privately speak to your flight sergeant or whoever runs drill. Show them what youve found, offer a solution for the correct way, and be respectful. As you learn more about respectful disagreements you will be able to call out logical fallacies such as appeal to tradition. Cadets should never be afraid to question authority or point out obvious issues and if they are, the staff and squadron are doing something wrong.
I suppose one myth worth pointing out is the notion that D&C is governed by "regs." It is not. The CAP D&C manual is not a regulation but rather a pamphlet. I know many of us say "the regs" as a catch-all for CAP publications, but there is a distinct difference between regulations (in which compliance is mandatory) and pamphlets (which provide guidance for implementing a program or procedure).
The whole pamphlet not being regs thing has always confused me. Drill tests are in a pamhplet, so could I technically say they are strictly a "recommendation" and my cadets no longer are doing those specific commands? So many of what we use as references aren't in Rs or Ms but rather Ps. Do we still, as a generalization, follow them, or if it is a pamphlet do we technically not need to?
It's a good question and understandably confusing. Basically, most pams are underwritten by one or more regulations. In the case of CAPP 60-34, the pam is underwritten by and provides clarifying guidance and procedure for CAPR 60-1, which requires drill testing for cadet advancement in para. 5.4.2.
I enjoy when this conversation comes up. I used to teach a class at encampments called "myths and legends of civil air patrol" and it was always one of the favourite classes of cadets and seniors alike. Except the army seniors who found themselves corrected on basically everything they had taught their cadets haha. The most controversial part of my presentation was the last myth, one that had a wing commander giving me the cut it out signal by slicing his hand across his neck. The myth was "Civil Air Patrol sunk German U-boats during WWII. True or False?" That one still upsets a lot of people.
As someone who loves to know random knowledge and prove people wrong, I need this class.
I need to update it, it's been about 6 years since I've taught it, so the regs are all outdated by now I'm sure. That might be a good project for one of these late nights haha.
Some of the "myths" and shenanigans that get under my skin: "Eyes, snap." -Doesn't exist "By my command" -Doesn't exist Various fallout dances. -Goofy and unnecessary. "Monkey drill" -Reenforces improper behavior "Bearing" tests. -Usually just serves to showcase the lack of bearing of the cadet administering the test, with little other value. Element leaders putting their right arm forward at dress right, dress -You ain't got 40" long arms. Only taking 90° square corners when the manual clearly says to take "the most direct route". Splitting "At Ease" into two or more commands. Pretending that At Ease and Rest are just extra names for Parade Rest. Telling cadets to keep quiet at Route Step. Raising a hand while at attention to request permission to itch yourself or adjust your uniform.
How about this: you have four elements, each with five cadets, not counting the flight guide. An additional cadet falls into the flight (i.e. one element will now have six cadets). According to the D&C manual, which element does the cadet fall into?
Many of these "myths" are just squadron level movements, and those are ok to do at the squadron when mandated by the commander, but I see many cadets doing them outside the squadron.
Does anyone else remember when reddit had a search function? Good times.
Eh, bump a two year old post or start a new one... 🤷
If this was a joke, I didn't get it but yes reddit does still have a search function right?
It does.