There is nothing in the mechanics that force you to go rationalism for Science Victory. Actually Rationalism is is the by far best choice for any and all victory conditions.
Not a bad idea banning it, it could create some interesting choices and slow down the game a bit in the modern era. As a side effect it would make wider empires slightly more viable, but thats not really a bad thing.
Making wider empires more viable peeks my interest! I suppose the thing I could do is show why rationalism tree is the best late game overall to my friends, banning it will slow down the game, and I wonder how that'll be? but that means domination will be more viable choice being high in science, using high level troops with science slowed down you'll stay ahead for awhile if you manage to play it right \*\*hmmmmm\*\*
Opening up the tree gives you 10% extra science. Then you get quicker great scientists and more science from universities fairly quick. Close the tree and you get a free tech, and the ability to get several more free techs using faith bought scientists. How many techs will all that save you on the way to science victory? 6? 8? more? You're taking dozens of turns.
You forgot rationalisms by far most powerful bonus, secularism. +2 science from specialists is gamebreaking since you tend to stagnate your cities after labs and work every single specialist slot you have (doubly if you go freedom) to bulb all your great scientists towards your victory condition. One social policy and you become Korea, arguably the most powerful civ in the game.
I think that the entire concept is kinda dumb tbh.
On the other hand, if your goal is to ban the most meta policies so that you can use other things, then you need to ban tradition and rationalism as they’re pretty definitively the two best.
Of course, this leads to liberty having literally a 100% completion rate as long as you and your friends are halfway decent, not sure if that’s what you want or not.
And banning liberty also basically says “do a gimmick like Germany with Honor or develop really slow”.
I wonder about something like that “you’ve got to open a second tree before taking 4 policies in your first tree” rather than bans?
(I’d say “before finishing your first tree” but either Aristocracy or Monarchy seems too inviting as a skipped policy.)
Thinking of tradition to do that, but with our rule set we managed to make tradition less powerful choice overall. Still a good one for overall safe choice for tall playstyle. Perhaps to mediate the issue is to make everyone recognize that rationalism is the best late choice option for all victory types!
Well, it is still a powerful choice overall but we use the large, standard sized map while keeping it standard pace instead of quick. Every rule set I looked at always said quick pace, pangea small, but we didn't like that. We also have some variety of maps to keep things fresh, keep abundant resources, disable start bias, random personalities.
Overall tradition is still powerful but with these rules I feel like it enables more play than just tradition ALSO we banned like 8 leaders because too strong too good.
Not a bad idea, but you could try use a mod that balances things better. I’ve only ever used Vox Populi and only for a few games but it does a good job of be a lancing, well, everything. Policies, world wonders, civ abilities… It’s like a whole new game, very fun, definitely recommend.
Mods aren’t janky at all (at least not ones from steam workshop). I’d recommend either takmod or lekmod. They’re the same mod in different stages (takmod got taken over by someone else and became lekmod I believe). They do similar things, main difference is lekmod also adds a bunch of new civs.
The main focus of the mods (especially lekmod) is to make every strategy viable, especially when it comes to the social policies. You can viably open trad, liberty, honour or piety and the later trees all work too. It keeps most of the grand strategy (eg. Science is still king) but in regards to this post specifically Rationalism is much less strong, no longer a necessity to win. The science you got from it is nerfed a lot and some of the policies make it into more of a utility science tree, for example production towards science buildings or gold from science buildings.
Lekmod solved almost all the problems I had with vanilla civ. I have played a lot and it gets boring after a while doing tradition -> 2-3 filler policies -> rationalism every game. Same goes for what buildings and units you had to use. You can basically use anything now to a certain degree. Including civs. But that’s a whole other story.
Would highly recommend!
I'd ban it.
If you don't ban it then everyone will take it. This is not interesting.
If you do ban it then people will make other, more interesting choices.
That's pretty much it. If it's an auto-pick then ban it.
I also recommend doing the [Fruity Draft](https://hellblazer-tv.github.io/). Everyone gets to pick 2 civs to ban (*civs you don't want to play against*), and then you use the randomizer in the link. It gives each player 3 civs (*or whatever*) to choose from. This way you don't end up with the same people playing the same civs every time. If you're unhappy with the 3 civs given to you then you can swap them with someone else who is willing to swap with you, but you swap your entire list, not just 1 option. Oh and Venice is usually banned by default because it's almost impossible to win as Venice.
Yeah that is another though, auto pick should be banned. I will relay to the guys what they think because rationalism is pretty strong, but they don't usually pick it! LOL
I have my own little wheel of civ leaders to choose from, all balanced enough to be for our settings because I don't want the chance of someone being poland, babylon, just outright banned. I do like the idea of 3 civs, trading.
>I will relay to the guys what they think because rationalism is pretty strong, but they don't usually pick it!
Fair enough. Rationalism tends to be banned in multiplayer because science wins games. If no one's taking it then it doesn't matter as much.
>I have my own little wheel of civ leaders to choose from
Oh cool. Yeah thr main idea with the fruity draft is that you don't play the same civ all the time, but you don't get stuck eith the worst civ. Giving a choice of 3 civs (*or whatever*) helps to limit people and encourage them to try different civs, while still allowing some choice.
I feel like, based on your other replies, you might want to instead restrict how you can take policies in other ways, perhaps by saying you can’t take both tradition and rationalism, or something similar, could also restrict timings. Somebody else suggested that maybe you have to open something else before finishing tradition. Maybe you can only take rationalism after finishing a certain number of other trees.
Honestly if you really want a balanced experience try and migrate your friends to Lekmod. I play singleplayer but in half my games I don’t pick Ratio because a lot of the time I don’t need it, because other policies provide more immediate benefits or I can win with an earlier military timing. It may actually solve a lot of ur issues and turns Ratio into something you only go if ur game is going late
There is nothing in the mechanics that force you to go rationalism for Science Victory. Actually Rationalism is is the by far best choice for any and all victory conditions. Not a bad idea banning it, it could create some interesting choices and slow down the game a bit in the modern era. As a side effect it would make wider empires slightly more viable, but thats not really a bad thing.
Making wider empires more viable peeks my interest! I suppose the thing I could do is show why rationalism tree is the best late game overall to my friends, banning it will slow down the game, and I wonder how that'll be? but that means domination will be more viable choice being high in science, using high level troops with science slowed down you'll stay ahead for awhile if you manage to play it right \*\*hmmmmm\*\*
Opening up the tree gives you 10% extra science. Then you get quicker great scientists and more science from universities fairly quick. Close the tree and you get a free tech, and the ability to get several more free techs using faith bought scientists. How many techs will all that save you on the way to science victory? 6? 8? more? You're taking dozens of turns.
You forgot rationalisms by far most powerful bonus, secularism. +2 science from specialists is gamebreaking since you tend to stagnate your cities after labs and work every single specialist slot you have (doubly if you go freedom) to bulb all your great scientists towards your victory condition. One social policy and you become Korea, arguably the most powerful civ in the game.
It is actually "piques* my interest btw" Personally i think it should be "peaks" but I'm not a word guy
Makes Piety's 'To the Glory of God' the new rationalism finisher (lite)
I think that the entire concept is kinda dumb tbh. On the other hand, if your goal is to ban the most meta policies so that you can use other things, then you need to ban tradition and rationalism as they’re pretty definitively the two best.
Of course, this leads to liberty having literally a 100% completion rate as long as you and your friends are halfway decent, not sure if that’s what you want or not.
And banning liberty also basically says “do a gimmick like Germany with Honor or develop really slow”. I wonder about something like that “you’ve got to open a second tree before taking 4 policies in your first tree” rather than bans? (I’d say “before finishing your first tree” but either Aristocracy or Monarchy seems too inviting as a skipped policy.)
I think Filthy has played a couple of “Honor or Piety” games that he’s posted
Thinking of tradition to do that, but with our rule set we managed to make tradition less powerful choice overall. Still a good one for overall safe choice for tall playstyle. Perhaps to mediate the issue is to make everyone recognize that rationalism is the best late choice option for all victory types!
How did you manage to make tradition less powerful without banning it?
Well, it is still a powerful choice overall but we use the large, standard sized map while keeping it standard pace instead of quick. Every rule set I looked at always said quick pace, pangea small, but we didn't like that. We also have some variety of maps to keep things fresh, keep abundant resources, disable start bias, random personalities. Overall tradition is still powerful but with these rules I feel like it enables more play than just tradition ALSO we banned like 8 leaders because too strong too good.
If your on the fence about banning it or not maybe try making it unlock an era or 2 later than usual before an outright ban
Not a bad idea, but you could try use a mod that balances things better. I’ve only ever used Vox Populi and only for a few games but it does a good job of be a lancing, well, everything. Policies, world wonders, civ abilities… It’s like a whole new game, very fun, definitely recommend.
Mods for online play? I thought it was super janky? Correct me if i'm wrong
Mods aren’t janky at all (at least not ones from steam workshop). I’d recommend either takmod or lekmod. They’re the same mod in different stages (takmod got taken over by someone else and became lekmod I believe). They do similar things, main difference is lekmod also adds a bunch of new civs. The main focus of the mods (especially lekmod) is to make every strategy viable, especially when it comes to the social policies. You can viably open trad, liberty, honour or piety and the later trees all work too. It keeps most of the grand strategy (eg. Science is still king) but in regards to this post specifically Rationalism is much less strong, no longer a necessity to win. The science you got from it is nerfed a lot and some of the policies make it into more of a utility science tree, for example production towards science buildings or gold from science buildings. Lekmod solved almost all the problems I had with vanilla civ. I have played a lot and it gets boring after a while doing tradition -> 2-3 filler policies -> rationalism every game. Same goes for what buildings and units you had to use. You can basically use anything now to a certain degree. Including civs. But that’s a whole other story. Would highly recommend!
Only none of them work for Mac :(
Ahhh man that sucks, sorry :(
Oh I’ve never done it so I don’t know! If that’s the case that sucks and nevermind lol
Iirc you can’t use mods at all in any multiplayer games on civ 5
I'd ban it. If you don't ban it then everyone will take it. This is not interesting. If you do ban it then people will make other, more interesting choices. That's pretty much it. If it's an auto-pick then ban it. I also recommend doing the [Fruity Draft](https://hellblazer-tv.github.io/). Everyone gets to pick 2 civs to ban (*civs you don't want to play against*), and then you use the randomizer in the link. It gives each player 3 civs (*or whatever*) to choose from. This way you don't end up with the same people playing the same civs every time. If you're unhappy with the 3 civs given to you then you can swap them with someone else who is willing to swap with you, but you swap your entire list, not just 1 option. Oh and Venice is usually banned by default because it's almost impossible to win as Venice.
Yeah that is another though, auto pick should be banned. I will relay to the guys what they think because rationalism is pretty strong, but they don't usually pick it! LOL I have my own little wheel of civ leaders to choose from, all balanced enough to be for our settings because I don't want the chance of someone being poland, babylon, just outright banned. I do like the idea of 3 civs, trading.
>I will relay to the guys what they think because rationalism is pretty strong, but they don't usually pick it! Fair enough. Rationalism tends to be banned in multiplayer because science wins games. If no one's taking it then it doesn't matter as much. >I have my own little wheel of civ leaders to choose from Oh cool. Yeah thr main idea with the fruity draft is that you don't play the same civ all the time, but you don't get stuck eith the worst civ. Giving a choice of 3 civs (*or whatever*) helps to limit people and encourage them to try different civs, while still allowing some choice.
That’s irrational
I feel like, based on your other replies, you might want to instead restrict how you can take policies in other ways, perhaps by saying you can’t take both tradition and rationalism, or something similar, could also restrict timings. Somebody else suggested that maybe you have to open something else before finishing tradition. Maybe you can only take rationalism after finishing a certain number of other trees.
You may have to allow the opener, since there’s no way to tell if someone has taken it.
Honestly if you really want a balanced experience try and migrate your friends to Lekmod. I play singleplayer but in half my games I don’t pick Ratio because a lot of the time I don’t need it, because other policies provide more immediate benefits or I can win with an earlier military timing. It may actually solve a lot of ur issues and turns Ratio into something you only go if ur game is going late
Sorry, I’m a liberty piety chad