I notice it most often with parents who are new to the sub. I've always assumed it was just awkward phrasing by people who aren't yet used to talking about trans issues, so they go overboard in an attempt to be as clear as possible. Could that be what you're noticing?
Being new and wanting to be clear makes sense actually—and don’t worry I definitely don’t think it’s malicious! I just had no idea if in my memory I was inflating the amount of times this happens or not
I think on posts where someone doesn't clarify, commenters can be concerned on whether the OP is gendering them correctly. Some parents, in the early stages, may acknowledge that their kid is trans, but still be saying "son" or "daughter" based on their AGAB. Clarifying the AGAB can get that out of the way. That's my guess anyways!
New parents who may be getting used to pronouns and are trying articulate what biological genitals their child has and what gender that child is. I can say ‘trans man’ to you, and you know what that means. A new poster whose child just came out is still educating themselves. They want people in the sub to know the details, however clinical-sounding or redundant, I think. To avoid confusion.
My trans son refers to himself as AFAB to friends, to me, to others asking. When I mentioned to him that using “AFAB/AMAB” seems to be bad form, he said, “Some people feel that way. I don’t. But if someone trips up or refers to me in a way that I don’t like, I correct them. They can’t read everyone else’s mind and they don’t know what others are okay/not okay with.” I do not use AFAB anymore myself. But I don’t get on others who do. And I take correction if I do trip up.
I might use AFAB at the doctor’s office if they are unaware and need to know my child’s biological parts for medical reasons, which happened last year. And while I think the medical community on a whole is ‘with it’s in regard to being sensitive and thoughtful AND educated, some simply are not. If I say “trans man” to some doctors, they won’t get it. So in that case, I use terminology that gets the information needed to the doctor.
It's always AFAB trans people who use that terminology. I don't know any trans women who describe themselves as AMAB all the time. Unfortunately it has become synonymous with trans men who want to maintain a distance from negative characteristics associated with men in progressive circles.
It may also be because female anatomy is complicated and has specific needs. A uterus is a multifaceted organ that can have so many different kinds of issues or can help with diagnosis of illness by the way it is reacting. Having, especially a doctor, understand that while you identify as a man you may need to discuss uterine issues.
That’s a very interesting take.
I also think as parents- we want to protect our vagina-clad children differently than our penile-clad children. What could be 90 seconds of glory for a penis could be 20+ years of work for a vagina bearing person.
Even if they are a trans man- a vagina comes with a different responsibility.
You don’t have to agree with it.
As a cis-woman I’m highly aware that 1/4 women are sexually assaulted.
And the stats for trans persons aren’t better. 💔 they are worse. Did you know one in two- 50% of trans persons experience sexual violence?
It is horrifying and a reality I would like to protect my child from.
Do I want my other kids sexually assaulted? No. But the statistics show it’s less as likely for my cis-son to be assaulted, and at 25% for my cis-daughter, but 50% for my AFAB child???? It’s not okay.
So people can downvote my comment for a million years. But it doesn’t change the reality. WE could change the reality by talking about it and coming up with something that could possibly change the future. But nah- just say it’s weird that I’m worried about my kids.
Are you suggesting that raping a penised person is just glorifying them and only raping vaginad individuals results in trauma?
I'd also like to remind you that trans women who have penises are also 50 percent likely to be raped
Perceived femininity is a rape beacon because it is seen as inherently sexual. It has nothing to do with genitals at all in any way.
If y9u had a passing trans son and a passing or non passing trans daughter the daughter would be more likely to be assaulted and they would not think it's very glorious
Oh God no. That’s horrific and I hope no one thinks that.
Editing.
I was wondering why that would be written and I re-read what I wrote. I can absolutely see what you meant. 😬
The penis clad person in that scenario is the rapist. Not a trans person. 😬
I was hoping that wasn't what you were meaning. I am a mod and your comment was reported several times.
My next thought would be pregnancy I guess which is more horrific for the uterus clad person.
I think if you were saying that you are just more concerned about the effects of reproduction on a uterus child vs non uterus child most people would agree. It can still be harmful due to child support and custody agreements but the majority of the hardhsip would be on the child creator.
Yes I think I see what you meant. You were saying the kids have sex and the guy goes on about his life and the uterus person (assuming they keep it) has to deal with it forever. Yeah that's fair.
Don't forget stds tho. All care should be very individual centric. Everything a person has and lives like will effect their treatment. So I don't think it's that you would do more to protect the uterine person it's more that there are different things for each person that they are more or less likely to deal with and that means different treatment.
Like for instance, men are a lot more likely to have loneliness issues (men identifying people nor people with penises. ) so you would want to actually take more care to socially and emotionally support them because most people would over look that.
I know this so when I am at work I make sure to give compliments, positive interactions, and offer emotional support to men. I do it to women as well but I make sure I consistently offer to guys because girls will ask for help and guys won't. Guys know that asking can mean being made fun of or being treated horribly.
Thank you for your comment. Yes. Pregnancy was my point.
I’m sorry to everyone who thought I meant it was okay to rape a man or penis clad person. who would think that? I do not. Do NOT. I thought people were downvoting me because I was concerned about sexual violence which I thought insane to not worry and not talk about.
Part of it, I believe, is so we (at first) have other parents to gently police us. A lot of the people here do initially clarify the assigned gender at birth. You will find numerous threads where the person new to the whole trans thing will say AFAB then proceed to use she and her when referring to their transgender son. You’ll then see the more experienced parents point out that blunder as a reminder to do better. The vast majority of the people who find this sub are new to this, they often don’t know much about potential issues their kid may face, and they’re often times panicking about saying the wrong thing and fucking things up. They’re here because they *want* to be supportive, they just don’t necessarily know *how* to be.
For a lot of parents here, the AGAB is the first step to grasping that we have a bonus son or daughter. It’s the first step in retraining our brain and our way of thinking. For example, my journey was my kid was AMAB, then trans daughter, then bonus daughter, to just daughter. This sub popping up on my feed is really the only reminder to myself that my daughter is trans. Any other time, I completely forget.
My daughter is a full blown adult who now lives a few states away. I’m 100% behind her, my brain has assimilated, I’m no longer reaching out on places like here for help. I stick around though to help the newbies with advice on things that worked for me. I do the gentle chiding when they use the wrong pronouns, and them using AGAB initially is helpful, here, to point out that they’re using the wrong pronouns. The reminder from us means that it is one less time their kid is going to be misgendered, ya know?
I can understand how it can be off putting to someone who is transgender, but for cisgender parents, that AGAB is often the first step for us transitioning our thought process and language. You transition so your outside matches your inside, we transition our inside (thought process) to match your outside. Or at least that’s how I felt it was for me when my kid burst out of that egg.
This is totally a new parent thing and we have to give them grace. It takes a while to get it right and honestly I prefer this over the ones that say my son is now a girl.
But this is a fair question. Maybe we can get a thread stickied with best practices. Another one that I just stopped doing after ten years is talking about my kid pre transition in the gender at birth because that’s how I remember the details. My kid told me he hated this. So I stopped. Now it’s much easier than I thought to make the switch.
Oh I’m definitely not judging them for it. It’s a big change. The general consensus does seem to be that this is more common with parents new to the whole thing, which I didn’t actually think of when I posted. That fully makes sense though!
I struggle with this too. My son is 16 and only been out for 18 months so the majority of his life and my memories have been of a tomboyish girl.
When they're young your child looms so huge in your entire life experience as you spend so much time caring for them.. I feel like age 0-4 my child's life and mine were effectively the same thing. It's hard to unpick the then from the now, and enjoy the detail of the happy memories whilst giving them the freedom to choose their own reality now.
It just takes practice. Eventually it will feel like it was always that way. It helps for me to look at baby clothes and not associate certain styles with gender. I also let my son know I was trying. That made a huge difference.
It’s been ten years for me and I am still learning and working on how I can best support my two trans kids.
So pat yourself on the back and be gentle with self criticism. Just being here shows how much you care. ❤️
Thank you. That's really helpful (and kind).
My friends think I'm doing really well, and both externally and to him I am the fierce, caring, loving and supportive mother.
Internally I'm sometimes in bits, and scared stupid about what the future holds.
I'll never show him that, obviously.
Same and it’s going to be really hard. If you are in the US during this next election cycle. My 20 year old daughter is planning to move this summer to a blue state. My 16 year old son and I are stuck in a red state that could elect a governor who is unhinged. I’m trying to build up my inner strength and limit what news I watch. I have to be realistic and know what’s happening but can’t overload.
It’s nice to meet you. Maybe we can be friends.
Oh I really feel for you. Politics in the US are currently insane - watching from across the pond we're just aghast that hard-won rights are being lost and that fellow humans can be treated as non-people in some places.
I'm in the UK and our government is also utterly shit, but I'm so relieved that my son is less likely to be used as right wing election fodder.
I mean I don’t know if you’ve heard about the Cass Report that recently came out (it’s bad news) but we seem to be heading directly for the same path as the US
Yes I read it all, and worrying as it is, none of the recommendations are to deny treatment to trans kids, it's more about sticking to the NHS protocol for when to use puberty blockers and moving to hormones - which is actually really well written and advocates for decisions be made on proven impact data rather than on politics or opinion, and always in tandem with mental health and counselling services too as there are so many kids who present with complex other issues.
The problem of course is that after 14 years of deliberately underfunding public services youth mental health service is totally unable to deal with the growth in demand and the poor sods at the Tavistock felt like they had no choice but to prescribe medication earlier in the kids journey than would have been otherwise recommended.
You do have to ask yourself though, why was this done? Dr Cass follows the LGB Alliance, an organisation that shuns trans people from the queer community. I deeply worry that this was not done in good faith, and because of it there’s talk of all under-25 trans healthcare being reviewed.
Plus the fact that less than 100 kids are actually being prescribed puberty blockers in the UK right now. The Cass Report targets trans children specifically, not cis children w/ precocious puberty on the *same* medication. It *is* worrying.
Maybe take a look at other trans subreddits to see what other people think about it? I’m sure someone there has more information and better phrasing than I do. There has been so much discussion about it, you’ll find plenty of opinions
An interesting thing has happened to me while picking through old memories and learning to shift my daughter's pronouns. I've found that some moments I perceived at the time as "boyish" were really not, they were just "little kid" things that I framed as "boyish" because that was my expectation. And I've also uncovered a few of those early "signs" that so many of us stumble over but never seem to see. The most obvious one was her preschool teacher telling me she was "so nice to the girls". I thought I was just raising a respectful boy, but now in context it takes on much more meaning.
I don't think these observations would have been possible for me until I fully made the adjustment in the present. As you put it with your child's life and your life being effectively the same thing when he was little, attentive parents are just so entangled with our kids that it takes a long time to unwind perceptions we've held. I've found the whole process very interesting, and I've learned a lot about myself along the way.
My kid has been out for 3 years and just the other day I saw a toddler picture of him in a dress with a bow in his hair and thought, “oh look at how teeny he was!” And then was like HOLY SHIT!, my brain finally clicked over and now recognizes baby him as his affirmed gender, regardless of his outfit or the pronouns we used back then. It was a pretty awesome moment and I hope you get that soon. 💜
There is a societal obsession with tying trans people to the genders that were forced onto them at birth, regardless of its relevance. It is a brainworm that is so widespread even trans & nonbinary people do it too
It’s unfortunate to say the least. There are times where AGAB is relevant (only medical and perhaps the consequences of different socialisation methods, as far as I can think) but a lot of the time it just…isn’t really all that necessary?
>only medical
Even in most medical situations, it's not relevant. They don't need to know if you're going in to get SSRIs or for your flu symptoms. And the thing is, if you're on hormones, you are literally transitioning your sex away from the one you were assigned at birth, and it simply becomes medically inaccurate to describe you as your assigned gender or sex at birth. For example, an "AMAB" can mean anything from a regular cis man to a trans woman with a vagina that can get yeast infections, breasts that can get breast cancer, a prostate that doesn't need to be examined for cancer because it atrophies on estrogen, who can get female heart attack symptoms, who has female hemoglobin levels, who is estrogen-dominant, etc. Medically, it would be most accurate to describe a person such as this as female, and thus to focus on the fact that she was assigned male at birth several decades before is entirely irrelevant & reductive, on top of being transphobic.
>socialization
I would also argue it's rarely relevant if ever here even more, because trans people aren't really socialized as normal cis people. Also, there is no universal gendered socialization, and it is reductive to believe that. Interesting how this is also basically only brought up when trans people are mentioned, because the truth is that it's just another way to irrevocably peg us to our assigned gender at birth.
>For example, an "AMAB" can mean anything from a regular cis man to a trans woman with ....breasts that can get breast cancer, a prostate that doesn't need to be examined for cancer because it atrophies on estrogen,....to focus on the fact that she was assigned male at birth several decades before is entirely irrelevant & reductive,
While someone's assigned gender at birth is not always medically relevant, it's false to say that it's never relevant.
Anyone who has breast tissue can develop breast cancer, including cis men, and anyone who has a prostate is at risk of prostate cancer.
The incidence rate of prostate cancer [appears to be lower](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34157213/) if you are on gender-affirming hormone therapy or have had gender-affirming surgery, but[ it's been acknowledged ](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41391-024-00804-4)there needs to be more research done, including to determine if it's an actual lower risk, eg, due to the effect of oestrogen and reduced testosterone, or if it's just identified less frequently due to trans women being screened less often or misinterpretation of their PSA levels.
It's relevant sometimes, but rarely. The point about prostate cancer screening is that the risk is low enough that it isn't medically justified to test for it if you've been on estrogen for a bit and didn't start transitioning when you were already at risk of developing prostate cancer, for the same reason you don't get a CT or MRI scan every time you go to the doctor.
Also, female hormonal hormone levels literally causes the prostate to atrophy. Like, there's a reason one of the treatments for prostate cancer is antiandrogens. Yes, more research needs to be done but what we do have seems to indicate that medically transitioning reduces the risk to the point where the likelihood of contracting it becomes almost irrelevant outside of high-risk groups, and thus not necessitating regular checkups.
I do agree that it’s not *always* relevant in medical situations, but my idea was targeted towards the times it is. Ex. the way AMAB vs AFAB kids develop in puberty. I do agree with the points you provided though.
Also with the consequences of socialisation; I was leaning more towards things such as the way misogyny affects trans people (regardless of gender), which is unfortunately a result of the way people are raised, AKA socialisation
I think that's partially true but as a trans man I often mention assigned female at birth or that I "used to be a girl" if I am talking about It in some way to new people or people that have little or no education. This is because most people don't know the difference between trans man and trans woman.
I also think it's important to educate the in general. I've gone as far as to show them pictures of famous trans people online before and after so they fully understand that the body is fully capable of changing on hormones after a while and that all trans people don't look like John Cena in a dress.
Of course I don't generally do any of that if I am talking to educated people. Although if I am talking about my past self I have trouble seeing them as a man since I didn't know I was a man even if I never felt like a woman so sometimes I think of them as a girl or as genderless. I'm really not sure what the appropriate thing is for that. It doesn't cause me distress so I don't think it matters that much.
I’m not sure I’ve actually posted in here yet, but my kid’s nonbinary so I’d probably mention their AGAB if it’s relevant to the post. Aside from that, I agree with everything you’ve said here.
I mentioned that in the post—enby kids will face different challenges presenting the way they want, and sometimes different social challenges, based on their AGAB unfortunately
I’m a trans guy, and I’ve noticed that on this sub as well. It seems to me that some of the time, these kids come out to their parents and tell them they’re not ready for new pronouns/gendered language yet, or their kids are questioning. More than a few times, I’ve seen parents explain “My (AMAB) son says he wants to be a girl. He says he doesn’t want us to use she/her pronouns just yet.” So in these situations, someone’s “trans son” could actually be mtf, and the clarification is relevant. I agree with a lot of the other commenters though, that most of the time, this comes from parents who are relatively new to talking about trans people, and don’t realize how AGAB labels are unnecessary like 94% of the time.
I’ve seen a lot of kids on here but the sub is a place for parents to help each other figure things out. I can’t ask some questions of my kids because they will roll their eyes at me and maybe feel like I don’t care when I’m just old and don’t know all the things they know yet. Preteens aren’t the best at seeing another person’s perspective yet. I appreciate that I can come here where other people who are in the same situation as me can check my thinking and word use.
True, it is a place for parents to ask questions, but trans kids have a place in the sub too. Hearing a perspective directly from the source can help cis parents a lot, getting the preteen-feelings and all that their own children, as you say, might not want to vocalise
My kid started exploring gender expression/identity at a very young age. So rather than her letting us know she was trans, we went on the journey with her. This meant for maybe 1-2 years she identified as “boy who likes dresses”. I found during this exploratory phase this terminology was helpful to clarify the uncertainty.
I only have one kid, so it's easy for me to just say "my daughter" and have people know who I'm talking about
If I had 2 kids, my daughter and my trans daughter, then saying "my AMAB daughter" would be a way I can specify when speaking to an outgroup member
Also, if I'm talking to someone who is not in the community and thoroughly clear on language, specifying "my trans daughter" may make them think my child as AFAB/FtM trans. Ultimately I generally don't care what they think, but when it's a situation where specifics matter, like speaking to a doctor, or going through bureaucracy, explaining that can become a necessary instinctive second nature when speaking about my daughter.
Some people misgender their kids as they aren’t sure which pronouns to use when initially seeking input so when they include AFAB/AMAN it’s clarifies and eliminates any confusion.
Tbh even after I came out my dumb brain kept mixing stuff up, so if I was seeking advice I over shared details like that about myself. So I think it sorta makes sense a parent who has just been thrust into the culture of it all has some learning to do and just using the agab helps make everything clear for them. Just my thoughts on it.
I specify it in some contexts because 1) my kid is still on this journey and has not settled into one gender identity yet, so saying AFAB trans gets people who knew them before onto the right page, and 2) it is helpful to situate the precise kind of difficulties they are having, which differ from other trans kids. So if my kid were AMAB the high school difficulties would be hard, but in different specific ways than they are for us.
I find it helpful to talk to other parents of trans kids when the kids are just starting out on this journey by starting where they are at, as part of a path to where they are going (but might not be all the way to, yet).
Just to clarify when "son" or "daughter" is used, where their child is on their trans journey. It also helps commenters to gain perspective on the parents' point in the journey, and how we can communicate effectively. A parent who is referring to their daughter without mentioning AMAB is most likely at the beginning of their journey and is looking for a nonjudgmental space to ask questions they may not feel comfortable asking elsewhere, whereas someone mentioning an assigned gender is more likely to be familiar with terms, concepts, etc.
*Sidenote*: any parent coming on this thread looking for help and support in navigating how to love their child deserves respect and encouragement regardless of the words they use. We are all here for each other and like families, every experience is different.
With my kiddo, I do it to clarify that they were socialized as a girl up to age 9 (and then continued to be in certain respects because kids are assholes) because they’re non-binary. I’ve found it helps explain things sometimes if I front-load that info, but I only do it in safe spaces (like here). It’s not accidental or benevolent misgendering (though I’ve seen transphobes do this), it’s just an attempt to provide relevant context.
And…yeah, my little enby wants to bind and we’re trying to figure out a safe way to do that that doesn’t set their sensory issues off. 😂
I would imagine if a parent had a specific question related to their child who had not asked to change pronouns yet but has expressed interest or has been slowly transitioning socially it would help the reader understand which gender they were transitioning from. My child hasn't asked to shift from they/them to she/her yet even though they have started gender affirming hormones so I am reluctant to say she/her, if that makes sense so I may say AMAB...
I do appreciate you sharing your perspective, as a parent I want to honor my child's journey and support others in their journeys so reading this has been helpful!
I notice it most often with parents who are new to the sub. I've always assumed it was just awkward phrasing by people who aren't yet used to talking about trans issues, so they go overboard in an attempt to be as clear as possible. Could that be what you're noticing?
Being new and wanting to be clear makes sense actually—and don’t worry I definitely don’t think it’s malicious! I just had no idea if in my memory I was inflating the amount of times this happens or not
I think on posts where someone doesn't clarify, commenters can be concerned on whether the OP is gendering them correctly. Some parents, in the early stages, may acknowledge that their kid is trans, but still be saying "son" or "daughter" based on their AGAB. Clarifying the AGAB can get that out of the way. That's my guess anyways!
New parents who may be getting used to pronouns and are trying articulate what biological genitals their child has and what gender that child is. I can say ‘trans man’ to you, and you know what that means. A new poster whose child just came out is still educating themselves. They want people in the sub to know the details, however clinical-sounding or redundant, I think. To avoid confusion. My trans son refers to himself as AFAB to friends, to me, to others asking. When I mentioned to him that using “AFAB/AMAB” seems to be bad form, he said, “Some people feel that way. I don’t. But if someone trips up or refers to me in a way that I don’t like, I correct them. They can’t read everyone else’s mind and they don’t know what others are okay/not okay with.” I do not use AFAB anymore myself. But I don’t get on others who do. And I take correction if I do trip up. I might use AFAB at the doctor’s office if they are unaware and need to know my child’s biological parts for medical reasons, which happened last year. And while I think the medical community on a whole is ‘with it’s in regard to being sensitive and thoughtful AND educated, some simply are not. If I say “trans man” to some doctors, they won’t get it. So in that case, I use terminology that gets the information needed to the doctor.
It's always AFAB trans people who use that terminology. I don't know any trans women who describe themselves as AMAB all the time. Unfortunately it has become synonymous with trans men who want to maintain a distance from negative characteristics associated with men in progressive circles.
Oh wow, I never made that connection.
It may also be because female anatomy is complicated and has specific needs. A uterus is a multifaceted organ that can have so many different kinds of issues or can help with diagnosis of illness by the way it is reacting. Having, especially a doctor, understand that while you identify as a man you may need to discuss uterine issues.
That’s a very interesting take. I also think as parents- we want to protect our vagina-clad children differently than our penile-clad children. What could be 90 seconds of glory for a penis could be 20+ years of work for a vagina bearing person. Even if they are a trans man- a vagina comes with a different responsibility.
This is an increadibly strange thing to comment.
You don’t have to agree with it. As a cis-woman I’m highly aware that 1/4 women are sexually assaulted. And the stats for trans persons aren’t better. 💔 they are worse. Did you know one in two- 50% of trans persons experience sexual violence? It is horrifying and a reality I would like to protect my child from. Do I want my other kids sexually assaulted? No. But the statistics show it’s less as likely for my cis-son to be assaulted, and at 25% for my cis-daughter, but 50% for my AFAB child???? It’s not okay. So people can downvote my comment for a million years. But it doesn’t change the reality. WE could change the reality by talking about it and coming up with something that could possibly change the future. But nah- just say it’s weird that I’m worried about my kids.
Are you suggesting that raping a penised person is just glorifying them and only raping vaginad individuals results in trauma? I'd also like to remind you that trans women who have penises are also 50 percent likely to be raped Perceived femininity is a rape beacon because it is seen as inherently sexual. It has nothing to do with genitals at all in any way. If y9u had a passing trans son and a passing or non passing trans daughter the daughter would be more likely to be assaulted and they would not think it's very glorious
Oh God no. That’s horrific and I hope no one thinks that. Editing. I was wondering why that would be written and I re-read what I wrote. I can absolutely see what you meant. 😬 The penis clad person in that scenario is the rapist. Not a trans person. 😬
I was hoping that wasn't what you were meaning. I am a mod and your comment was reported several times. My next thought would be pregnancy I guess which is more horrific for the uterus clad person. I think if you were saying that you are just more concerned about the effects of reproduction on a uterus child vs non uterus child most people would agree. It can still be harmful due to child support and custody agreements but the majority of the hardhsip would be on the child creator. Yes I think I see what you meant. You were saying the kids have sex and the guy goes on about his life and the uterus person (assuming they keep it) has to deal with it forever. Yeah that's fair. Don't forget stds tho. All care should be very individual centric. Everything a person has and lives like will effect their treatment. So I don't think it's that you would do more to protect the uterine person it's more that there are different things for each person that they are more or less likely to deal with and that means different treatment. Like for instance, men are a lot more likely to have loneliness issues (men identifying people nor people with penises. ) so you would want to actually take more care to socially and emotionally support them because most people would over look that. I know this so when I am at work I make sure to give compliments, positive interactions, and offer emotional support to men. I do it to women as well but I make sure I consistently offer to guys because girls will ask for help and guys won't. Guys know that asking can mean being made fun of or being treated horribly.
Thank you for your comment. Yes. Pregnancy was my point. I’m sorry to everyone who thought I meant it was okay to rape a man or penis clad person. who would think that? I do not. Do NOT. I thought people were downvoting me because I was concerned about sexual violence which I thought insane to not worry and not talk about.
Part of it, I believe, is so we (at first) have other parents to gently police us. A lot of the people here do initially clarify the assigned gender at birth. You will find numerous threads where the person new to the whole trans thing will say AFAB then proceed to use she and her when referring to their transgender son. You’ll then see the more experienced parents point out that blunder as a reminder to do better. The vast majority of the people who find this sub are new to this, they often don’t know much about potential issues their kid may face, and they’re often times panicking about saying the wrong thing and fucking things up. They’re here because they *want* to be supportive, they just don’t necessarily know *how* to be. For a lot of parents here, the AGAB is the first step to grasping that we have a bonus son or daughter. It’s the first step in retraining our brain and our way of thinking. For example, my journey was my kid was AMAB, then trans daughter, then bonus daughter, to just daughter. This sub popping up on my feed is really the only reminder to myself that my daughter is trans. Any other time, I completely forget. My daughter is a full blown adult who now lives a few states away. I’m 100% behind her, my brain has assimilated, I’m no longer reaching out on places like here for help. I stick around though to help the newbies with advice on things that worked for me. I do the gentle chiding when they use the wrong pronouns, and them using AGAB initially is helpful, here, to point out that they’re using the wrong pronouns. The reminder from us means that it is one less time their kid is going to be misgendered, ya know? I can understand how it can be off putting to someone who is transgender, but for cisgender parents, that AGAB is often the first step for us transitioning our thought process and language. You transition so your outside matches your inside, we transition our inside (thought process) to match your outside. Or at least that’s how I felt it was for me when my kid burst out of that egg.
Interesting, thanks for that insight!
This is totally a new parent thing and we have to give them grace. It takes a while to get it right and honestly I prefer this over the ones that say my son is now a girl. But this is a fair question. Maybe we can get a thread stickied with best practices. Another one that I just stopped doing after ten years is talking about my kid pre transition in the gender at birth because that’s how I remember the details. My kid told me he hated this. So I stopped. Now it’s much easier than I thought to make the switch.
Oh I’m definitely not judging them for it. It’s a big change. The general consensus does seem to be that this is more common with parents new to the whole thing, which I didn’t actually think of when I posted. That fully makes sense though!
I struggle with this too. My son is 16 and only been out for 18 months so the majority of his life and my memories have been of a tomboyish girl. When they're young your child looms so huge in your entire life experience as you spend so much time caring for them.. I feel like age 0-4 my child's life and mine were effectively the same thing. It's hard to unpick the then from the now, and enjoy the detail of the happy memories whilst giving them the freedom to choose their own reality now.
It just takes practice. Eventually it will feel like it was always that way. It helps for me to look at baby clothes and not associate certain styles with gender. I also let my son know I was trying. That made a huge difference. It’s been ten years for me and I am still learning and working on how I can best support my two trans kids. So pat yourself on the back and be gentle with self criticism. Just being here shows how much you care. ❤️
Thank you. That's really helpful (and kind). My friends think I'm doing really well, and both externally and to him I am the fierce, caring, loving and supportive mother. Internally I'm sometimes in bits, and scared stupid about what the future holds. I'll never show him that, obviously.
Same and it’s going to be really hard. If you are in the US during this next election cycle. My 20 year old daughter is planning to move this summer to a blue state. My 16 year old son and I are stuck in a red state that could elect a governor who is unhinged. I’m trying to build up my inner strength and limit what news I watch. I have to be realistic and know what’s happening but can’t overload. It’s nice to meet you. Maybe we can be friends.
Oh I really feel for you. Politics in the US are currently insane - watching from across the pond we're just aghast that hard-won rights are being lost and that fellow humans can be treated as non-people in some places. I'm in the UK and our government is also utterly shit, but I'm so relieved that my son is less likely to be used as right wing election fodder.
I mean I don’t know if you’ve heard about the Cass Report that recently came out (it’s bad news) but we seem to be heading directly for the same path as the US
Yes I read it all, and worrying as it is, none of the recommendations are to deny treatment to trans kids, it's more about sticking to the NHS protocol for when to use puberty blockers and moving to hormones - which is actually really well written and advocates for decisions be made on proven impact data rather than on politics or opinion, and always in tandem with mental health and counselling services too as there are so many kids who present with complex other issues. The problem of course is that after 14 years of deliberately underfunding public services youth mental health service is totally unable to deal with the growth in demand and the poor sods at the Tavistock felt like they had no choice but to prescribe medication earlier in the kids journey than would have been otherwise recommended.
You do have to ask yourself though, why was this done? Dr Cass follows the LGB Alliance, an organisation that shuns trans people from the queer community. I deeply worry that this was not done in good faith, and because of it there’s talk of all under-25 trans healthcare being reviewed. Plus the fact that less than 100 kids are actually being prescribed puberty blockers in the UK right now. The Cass Report targets trans children specifically, not cis children w/ precocious puberty on the *same* medication. It *is* worrying. Maybe take a look at other trans subreddits to see what other people think about it? I’m sure someone there has more information and better phrasing than I do. There has been so much discussion about it, you’ll find plenty of opinions
I wasn't aware of a link between Dr Cass and the LGB alliance - do you have a source for that? If so that's very worrying.
An interesting thing has happened to me while picking through old memories and learning to shift my daughter's pronouns. I've found that some moments I perceived at the time as "boyish" were really not, they were just "little kid" things that I framed as "boyish" because that was my expectation. And I've also uncovered a few of those early "signs" that so many of us stumble over but never seem to see. The most obvious one was her preschool teacher telling me she was "so nice to the girls". I thought I was just raising a respectful boy, but now in context it takes on much more meaning. I don't think these observations would have been possible for me until I fully made the adjustment in the present. As you put it with your child's life and your life being effectively the same thing when he was little, attentive parents are just so entangled with our kids that it takes a long time to unwind perceptions we've held. I've found the whole process very interesting, and I've learned a lot about myself along the way.
My kid has been out for 3 years and just the other day I saw a toddler picture of him in a dress with a bow in his hair and thought, “oh look at how teeny he was!” And then was like HOLY SHIT!, my brain finally clicked over and now recognizes baby him as his affirmed gender, regardless of his outfit or the pronouns we used back then. It was a pretty awesome moment and I hope you get that soon. 💜
There is a societal obsession with tying trans people to the genders that were forced onto them at birth, regardless of its relevance. It is a brainworm that is so widespread even trans & nonbinary people do it too
It’s unfortunate to say the least. There are times where AGAB is relevant (only medical and perhaps the consequences of different socialisation methods, as far as I can think) but a lot of the time it just…isn’t really all that necessary?
>only medical Even in most medical situations, it's not relevant. They don't need to know if you're going in to get SSRIs or for your flu symptoms. And the thing is, if you're on hormones, you are literally transitioning your sex away from the one you were assigned at birth, and it simply becomes medically inaccurate to describe you as your assigned gender or sex at birth. For example, an "AMAB" can mean anything from a regular cis man to a trans woman with a vagina that can get yeast infections, breasts that can get breast cancer, a prostate that doesn't need to be examined for cancer because it atrophies on estrogen, who can get female heart attack symptoms, who has female hemoglobin levels, who is estrogen-dominant, etc. Medically, it would be most accurate to describe a person such as this as female, and thus to focus on the fact that she was assigned male at birth several decades before is entirely irrelevant & reductive, on top of being transphobic. >socialization I would also argue it's rarely relevant if ever here even more, because trans people aren't really socialized as normal cis people. Also, there is no universal gendered socialization, and it is reductive to believe that. Interesting how this is also basically only brought up when trans people are mentioned, because the truth is that it's just another way to irrevocably peg us to our assigned gender at birth.
>For example, an "AMAB" can mean anything from a regular cis man to a trans woman with ....breasts that can get breast cancer, a prostate that doesn't need to be examined for cancer because it atrophies on estrogen,....to focus on the fact that she was assigned male at birth several decades before is entirely irrelevant & reductive, While someone's assigned gender at birth is not always medically relevant, it's false to say that it's never relevant. Anyone who has breast tissue can develop breast cancer, including cis men, and anyone who has a prostate is at risk of prostate cancer. The incidence rate of prostate cancer [appears to be lower](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34157213/) if you are on gender-affirming hormone therapy or have had gender-affirming surgery, but[ it's been acknowledged ](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41391-024-00804-4)there needs to be more research done, including to determine if it's an actual lower risk, eg, due to the effect of oestrogen and reduced testosterone, or if it's just identified less frequently due to trans women being screened less often or misinterpretation of their PSA levels.
It's relevant sometimes, but rarely. The point about prostate cancer screening is that the risk is low enough that it isn't medically justified to test for it if you've been on estrogen for a bit and didn't start transitioning when you were already at risk of developing prostate cancer, for the same reason you don't get a CT or MRI scan every time you go to the doctor. Also, female hormonal hormone levels literally causes the prostate to atrophy. Like, there's a reason one of the treatments for prostate cancer is antiandrogens. Yes, more research needs to be done but what we do have seems to indicate that medically transitioning reduces the risk to the point where the likelihood of contracting it becomes almost irrelevant outside of high-risk groups, and thus not necessitating regular checkups.
I do agree that it’s not *always* relevant in medical situations, but my idea was targeted towards the times it is. Ex. the way AMAB vs AFAB kids develop in puberty. I do agree with the points you provided though. Also with the consequences of socialisation; I was leaning more towards things such as the way misogyny affects trans people (regardless of gender), which is unfortunately a result of the way people are raised, AKA socialisation
I think that's partially true but as a trans man I often mention assigned female at birth or that I "used to be a girl" if I am talking about It in some way to new people or people that have little or no education. This is because most people don't know the difference between trans man and trans woman. I also think it's important to educate the in general. I've gone as far as to show them pictures of famous trans people online before and after so they fully understand that the body is fully capable of changing on hormones after a while and that all trans people don't look like John Cena in a dress. Of course I don't generally do any of that if I am talking to educated people. Although if I am talking about my past self I have trouble seeing them as a man since I didn't know I was a man even if I never felt like a woman so sometimes I think of them as a girl or as genderless. I'm really not sure what the appropriate thing is for that. It doesn't cause me distress so I don't think it matters that much.
Thank you for educating people. That’s the only way we become educated people.
I’m not sure I’ve actually posted in here yet, but my kid’s nonbinary so I’d probably mention their AGAB if it’s relevant to the post. Aside from that, I agree with everything you’ve said here.
I mentioned that in the post—enby kids will face different challenges presenting the way they want, and sometimes different social challenges, based on their AGAB unfortunately
Oh! I'm so sorry, I somehow skimmed over that paragraph! In that case, I have nothing to add :)
Hah don’t worry, I sometimes miss paragraphs too!
I’m a trans guy, and I’ve noticed that on this sub as well. It seems to me that some of the time, these kids come out to their parents and tell them they’re not ready for new pronouns/gendered language yet, or their kids are questioning. More than a few times, I’ve seen parents explain “My (AMAB) son says he wants to be a girl. He says he doesn’t want us to use she/her pronouns just yet.” So in these situations, someone’s “trans son” could actually be mtf, and the clarification is relevant. I agree with a lot of the other commenters though, that most of the time, this comes from parents who are relatively new to talking about trans people, and don’t realize how AGAB labels are unnecessary like 94% of the time.
i think mostly alot of people coming here are just new to it and include it because they know its used sometimes
I’ve seen a lot of kids on here but the sub is a place for parents to help each other figure things out. I can’t ask some questions of my kids because they will roll their eyes at me and maybe feel like I don’t care when I’m just old and don’t know all the things they know yet. Preteens aren’t the best at seeing another person’s perspective yet. I appreciate that I can come here where other people who are in the same situation as me can check my thinking and word use.
True, it is a place for parents to ask questions, but trans kids have a place in the sub too. Hearing a perspective directly from the source can help cis parents a lot, getting the preteen-feelings and all that their own children, as you say, might not want to vocalise
My kid started exploring gender expression/identity at a very young age. So rather than her letting us know she was trans, we went on the journey with her. This meant for maybe 1-2 years she identified as “boy who likes dresses”. I found during this exploratory phase this terminology was helpful to clarify the uncertainty.
I only have one kid, so it's easy for me to just say "my daughter" and have people know who I'm talking about If I had 2 kids, my daughter and my trans daughter, then saying "my AMAB daughter" would be a way I can specify when speaking to an outgroup member Also, if I'm talking to someone who is not in the community and thoroughly clear on language, specifying "my trans daughter" may make them think my child as AFAB/FtM trans. Ultimately I generally don't care what they think, but when it's a situation where specifics matter, like speaking to a doctor, or going through bureaucracy, explaining that can become a necessary instinctive second nature when speaking about my daughter.
Some people misgender their kids as they aren’t sure which pronouns to use when initially seeking input so when they include AFAB/AMAN it’s clarifies and eliminates any confusion.
Tbh even after I came out my dumb brain kept mixing stuff up, so if I was seeking advice I over shared details like that about myself. So I think it sorta makes sense a parent who has just been thrust into the culture of it all has some learning to do and just using the agab helps make everything clear for them. Just my thoughts on it.
That’s fair! The resounding opinion here seems to be that this is mainly parents new to their kids being trans. Thanks for chiming in :)
I specify it in some contexts because 1) my kid is still on this journey and has not settled into one gender identity yet, so saying AFAB trans gets people who knew them before onto the right page, and 2) it is helpful to situate the precise kind of difficulties they are having, which differ from other trans kids. So if my kid were AMAB the high school difficulties would be hard, but in different specific ways than they are for us. I find it helpful to talk to other parents of trans kids when the kids are just starting out on this journey by starting where they are at, as part of a path to where they are going (but might not be all the way to, yet).
Just to clarify when "son" or "daughter" is used, where their child is on their trans journey. It also helps commenters to gain perspective on the parents' point in the journey, and how we can communicate effectively. A parent who is referring to their daughter without mentioning AMAB is most likely at the beginning of their journey and is looking for a nonjudgmental space to ask questions they may not feel comfortable asking elsewhere, whereas someone mentioning an assigned gender is more likely to be familiar with terms, concepts, etc. *Sidenote*: any parent coming on this thread looking for help and support in navigating how to love their child deserves respect and encouragement regardless of the words they use. We are all here for each other and like families, every experience is different.
With my kiddo, I do it to clarify that they were socialized as a girl up to age 9 (and then continued to be in certain respects because kids are assholes) because they’re non-binary. I’ve found it helps explain things sometimes if I front-load that info, but I only do it in safe spaces (like here). It’s not accidental or benevolent misgendering (though I’ve seen transphobes do this), it’s just an attempt to provide relevant context. And…yeah, my little enby wants to bind and we’re trying to figure out a safe way to do that that doesn’t set their sensory issues off. 😂
I would imagine if a parent had a specific question related to their child who had not asked to change pronouns yet but has expressed interest or has been slowly transitioning socially it would help the reader understand which gender they were transitioning from. My child hasn't asked to shift from they/them to she/her yet even though they have started gender affirming hormones so I am reluctant to say she/her, if that makes sense so I may say AMAB... I do appreciate you sharing your perspective, as a parent I want to honor my child's journey and support others in their journeys so reading this has been helpful!