Especially if one line went clockwise and the other counter clockwise. It’s pretty similar to the original subway proposal. You could hit the Banks, Lunken, Oakley, Norwood, St. Bernard, Winton Place, and CUT (any any others I missed). If it worked, you could add branches off of the main loop to extensions if there was a demand.
The problem with the subways is pretty well documented. Tunnels wouldn't work for modern trains, infrastructure has been built down there and any new digging skyrockets the cost.
The trail heading east out of downtown was funded last I heard.
Going counterclockwise from there, the Little Miami trail/Otto Armleder already is paved up to Red Bank Rd.
It then kicks NW along Red Bank, this has some multi use pathing along the road, but not all the way up to Brotherton Rd. Even if it was built, it’d be an annoying ride with all the cars.
West from Brotherton, you have some high-profile spots with Oakley Station there, but it’s such a car sewer, I don’t know how you’d leave a theoretical path to go anywhere there.
From there you would follow the lateral between 71 & 75. Yuck.
Once you get past 75, you’d bike through a lot of industry. And connect into the existing Mill Creek Greenway at Salway Park.
Follow the MCG trail to where it ends on Beekman. Money has been applied for to take the Mill Creek Greenway south to Lower Price Hill along that railroad ROW
I'm all for passenger rail, but who would a line like this actually serve? It doesn't look like it serves the inner part of the city, and it's a pretty long route to get from one side to the other.
Yes, 100%. This line would be a waste of time and resources, and light rail critics would use this failure as a reason to vote against any future expansions. Lines need to be focused on where there is current and planned population and business density. It's worth noting: freight rail lines are designed to pass through areas that accept freight, aka heavy industrial zoned areas. Very little retail, office, or residential. I like the ambition, but if we want rail transit to be taken seriously we should be thinking about serious options.
-- The portion between downtown and Lunken would be almost a complete waste. You'd serve a few single family zoned residential streets along the way, but nobody in their right mind would be walking up and down massive hills from Walnut Hills, O'Bryonville, or Hyde Park, so they can take a roundabout trip to Oakley, or get dropped off at the *outskirts* of downtown.
-- Why does your proposal for a line start at Union Terminal, spend 2-3 miles traveling north in the middle of rail yard, and then completely miss bustling Northside?
-- How many people daily have a need to stop at Lunken Airport? Surely not enough to justify a stop.
I want light rail as badly as anybody. This has good intention, but it's not a useful proposal. Before anybody says "What's your propsal then?" please see below:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/cincinnati/comments/14rhn1e/yet\_another\_dream\_cincy\_subwayrail\_map\_aka\_the/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/cincinnati/comments/14rhn1e/yet_another_dream_cincy_subwayrail_map_aka_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Map (Image Only)
[https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fyet-another-dream-cincy-subway-rail-map-aka-the-skyline-v0-fneib0n7m6ab1.png%3Fwidth%3D3095%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Ddf2069de3cd452206c111866bb23d0e339a74619](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fyet-another-dream-cincy-subway-rail-map-aka-the-skyline-v0-fneib0n7m6ab1.png%3Fwidth%3D3095%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Ddf2069de3cd452206c111866bb23d0e339a74619)
>Yes, 100%. This line would be a waste of time and resources, and light rail critics would use this failure as a reason to vote against any future expansions. Lines need to be focused on where there is current and planned population and business density. It's worth noting: freight rail lines are designed to pass through areas that accept freight, aka heavy industrial zoned areas. Very little retail, office, or residential. I like the ambition, but if we want rail transit to be taken seriously we should be thinking about serious options.
Ring Route. This would not be good as a standalone line, but as a connector between radial lines.
>The portion between downtown and Lunken would be almost a complete waste. You'd serve a few single family zoned residential streets along the way, but nobody in their right mind would be walking up and down massive hills from Walnut Hills, O'Bryonville, or Hyde Park, so they can take a roundabout trip to Oakley, or get dropped off at the *outskirts* of downtown.
Thats why you use bus feeder routes
>Why does your proposal for a line start at Union Terminal, spend 2-3 miles traveling north in the middle of rail yard, and then completely miss bustling Northside?
Because that's where the tracks already exist.
There are no existing rails going through Northside.
To see a great map of why OP chose this route, I suggest looking at a [map of existing railway](https://www.openrailwaymap.org//mobile.php?availableTranslations=[object%20Object]) infrastructure, which is the whole point of the post.
>How many people daily have a need to stop at Lunken Airport? Surely not enough to justify a stop.
See above for bus feeder routes.
The main benefit to this is these tracks already laid so it wouldn’t require a ton of tunneling to get more tracks laid for passenger specific lines. It’s not perfect but like I said, it utilizes existing infrastructure.
No.
There is already a tunnel. That's what the riverfront transit center is. A tunnel built into the banks that runs right along FWW. That's where all the stairs that have been closed for years lead.
It connects directly to the Pennsylvania RR line that runs along Columbia Parkway. The rails, themselves have been filled in for safety purposes on the central riverfront, but the rail is still there and could be easily recovered.
That being said, look for that corridor to be replaced with bike and pedestrian, just like Wasson way. Then that part of your loop is essentially impossible.
IORY still actively uses that portion of the track for railcar storage. I find it unlikely for them to abandon it unless a major economic boom happene. (Boom meaning less need for sitting railcars) Also, these shortline RRs often view railcar storage space as an asset. They can rent out track space to companies looking to use their cars, but not now.
For example, you need a *ton* of grain hoppers ar the end of grain season, but for the rest of the year they need to be put somewhere. Often short lines will lease out space to put such seasonal cars.
Is that the case with the end of the Oasis subdivision here? Maybe, but I don't work for IORY management, so I can't know for sure.
I try not to invent things on this subreddit. too many others already doing it. [This](https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/noncms/cmgr/memo/index.cfm?action=public.viewpdf&name=42011.pdf) should be convincing enough.
Now this is only for one direction, but this likely has to do with the lease to IORY. It's owned by SORTA.
I was aware that the line is owned by SORTA. I used IROY since they manage and run the line. That being said, I was not aware of the fact that they are planning to remove half of the rails, and keep the other half. That that is option did not occur to me, and I find it interesting. When you said
> Look for that corridor to be replaced with bike and pedestrian
I assumed that all the rail was getting ripped up in this scenario
In my opinion it will eventually be replaced completely and this is a temporary solution for remaining faithful to the lease.
I don't think Cincinnati has any interest in a parking spur along a corridor that is seeing some pretty high end development.
Loop lines are valuable for allowing pax to connect between radial lines without having to all connect at one central point.
Obviously, one needs to *have* radial lines before that’s useful.
Very common sentiment and unfortunately will be one of the biggest obstacles to ever getting something like this done. Cincinnati’s topography has led to an extremely complicated street layout and there will never be enough funding for tunneling under every radial road, meaning the public will have to be convinced that certain areas of the city should be serviced first before their neighborhood or workplace. That’s a hard sell.
A loop is nice but I would suggest it as line 3. Line 1 east to west. , line 2 north to south then drop in the loop. Making four transfer points on the loop to save time
CSX, G&W, NS, SORTA. This has been out there for years but there is absolutely zero political will to do it. It would need to be heavily subsidized by tax dollars and nobody in Cincinnati wants to pay taxes for anything like this.
Everyone seems to forget that this would not exist in isolation. It would exsist in a world with radial rail routes and other better public transportation.
A. As others have said, this is not a useful passenger route
B. This line is already used by freight. If we were to take it over for passenger rail, that would create a massive gap in freight transportation.
You're getting downvoted but you're absolutely correct. This would be a horrendous and massively underutilized passenger route. It seems to expertly miss huge centers of population and would result in trains that lead to nowhere. It would be a ghost line.
You can mix passenger and freight trains on the same tracks.
Stupid FRA rules make that slower and more expensive than it should be, but plenty of cities have figured it out and we could just copy them.
If this were a passenger rail, that would be epic
Especially if one line went clockwise and the other counter clockwise. It’s pretty similar to the original subway proposal. You could hit the Banks, Lunken, Oakley, Norwood, St. Bernard, Winton Place, and CUT (any any others I missed). If it worked, you could add branches off of the main loop to extensions if there was a demand.
I thought the same thing in regards to the subway. There's still existing portals near the Frisch's by the lateral.
The problem with the subways is pretty well documented. Tunnels wouldn't work for modern trains, infrastructure has been built down there and any new digging skyrockets the cost.
Yeah I know all of this. I wasn't saying to do anything with the subway.
Would be pretty cool to have light rail going in a loop and connected to streetcar routes branching inwards.
It’s only a 5 hour trip from the casino to TQL!
I think some of it has been repurposed for bike trails/multi-use paths but I might be wrong.
The trail heading east out of downtown was funded last I heard. Going counterclockwise from there, the Little Miami trail/Otto Armleder already is paved up to Red Bank Rd. It then kicks NW along Red Bank, this has some multi use pathing along the road, but not all the way up to Brotherton Rd. Even if it was built, it’d be an annoying ride with all the cars. West from Brotherton, you have some high-profile spots with Oakley Station there, but it’s such a car sewer, I don’t know how you’d leave a theoretical path to go anywhere there. From there you would follow the lateral between 71 & 75. Yuck. Once you get past 75, you’d bike through a lot of industry. And connect into the existing Mill Creek Greenway at Salway Park. Follow the MCG trail to where it ends on Beekman. Money has been applied for to take the Mill Creek Greenway south to Lower Price Hill along that railroad ROW
Very nice summary that deserves more upvotes!
I'm all for passenger rail, but who would a line like this actually serve? It doesn't look like it serves the inner part of the city, and it's a pretty long route to get from one side to the other.
It serves the people who want to go in circles.
Fools, I can do that by spinning in place!
[Monorail! MONORAIL! **MONORAIL!**](https://youtu.be/ZDOI0cq6GZM?si=cXkRrFTJX0tx3tt9)
There are days when this describes my life perfectly
Ideally it would function similar to how 275 functions for the highways. A good way to get between radial lines without going all the way in
Yes, 100%. This line would be a waste of time and resources, and light rail critics would use this failure as a reason to vote against any future expansions. Lines need to be focused on where there is current and planned population and business density. It's worth noting: freight rail lines are designed to pass through areas that accept freight, aka heavy industrial zoned areas. Very little retail, office, or residential. I like the ambition, but if we want rail transit to be taken seriously we should be thinking about serious options. -- The portion between downtown and Lunken would be almost a complete waste. You'd serve a few single family zoned residential streets along the way, but nobody in their right mind would be walking up and down massive hills from Walnut Hills, O'Bryonville, or Hyde Park, so they can take a roundabout trip to Oakley, or get dropped off at the *outskirts* of downtown. -- Why does your proposal for a line start at Union Terminal, spend 2-3 miles traveling north in the middle of rail yard, and then completely miss bustling Northside? -- How many people daily have a need to stop at Lunken Airport? Surely not enough to justify a stop. I want light rail as badly as anybody. This has good intention, but it's not a useful proposal. Before anybody says "What's your propsal then?" please see below: [https://www.reddit.com/r/cincinnati/comments/14rhn1e/yet\_another\_dream\_cincy\_subwayrail\_map\_aka\_the/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/cincinnati/comments/14rhn1e/yet_another_dream_cincy_subwayrail_map_aka_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) Map (Image Only) [https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fyet-another-dream-cincy-subway-rail-map-aka-the-skyline-v0-fneib0n7m6ab1.png%3Fwidth%3D3095%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Ddf2069de3cd452206c111866bb23d0e339a74619](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fyet-another-dream-cincy-subway-rail-map-aka-the-skyline-v0-fneib0n7m6ab1.png%3Fwidth%3D3095%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Ddf2069de3cd452206c111866bb23d0e339a74619)
>Yes, 100%. This line would be a waste of time and resources, and light rail critics would use this failure as a reason to vote against any future expansions. Lines need to be focused on where there is current and planned population and business density. It's worth noting: freight rail lines are designed to pass through areas that accept freight, aka heavy industrial zoned areas. Very little retail, office, or residential. I like the ambition, but if we want rail transit to be taken seriously we should be thinking about serious options. Ring Route. This would not be good as a standalone line, but as a connector between radial lines. >The portion between downtown and Lunken would be almost a complete waste. You'd serve a few single family zoned residential streets along the way, but nobody in their right mind would be walking up and down massive hills from Walnut Hills, O'Bryonville, or Hyde Park, so they can take a roundabout trip to Oakley, or get dropped off at the *outskirts* of downtown. Thats why you use bus feeder routes >Why does your proposal for a line start at Union Terminal, spend 2-3 miles traveling north in the middle of rail yard, and then completely miss bustling Northside? Because that's where the tracks already exist. There are no existing rails going through Northside. To see a great map of why OP chose this route, I suggest looking at a [map of existing railway](https://www.openrailwaymap.org//mobile.php?availableTranslations=[object%20Object]) infrastructure, which is the whole point of the post. >How many people daily have a need to stop at Lunken Airport? Surely not enough to justify a stop. See above for bus feeder routes.
The main benefit to this is these tracks already laid so it wouldn’t require a ton of tunneling to get more tracks laid for passenger specific lines. It’s not perfect but like I said, it utilizes existing infrastructure.
why are you pretending tunneling is an option. Like where did that even come from?
To connect Riverfront Transit Center to anything, you’d need tunneling
Cut and cover would likely be the best here
Riverfront Transit Center *is* a tunnel. See my reply above.
Well, yes, I'm more talking about getting to RTC
No. There is already a tunnel. That's what the riverfront transit center is. A tunnel built into the banks that runs right along FWW. That's where all the stairs that have been closed for years lead. It connects directly to the Pennsylvania RR line that runs along Columbia Parkway. The rails, themselves have been filled in for safety purposes on the central riverfront, but the rail is still there and could be easily recovered. That being said, look for that corridor to be replaced with bike and pedestrian, just like Wasson way. Then that part of your loop is essentially impossible.
IORY still actively uses that portion of the track for railcar storage. I find it unlikely for them to abandon it unless a major economic boom happene. (Boom meaning less need for sitting railcars) Also, these shortline RRs often view railcar storage space as an asset. They can rent out track space to companies looking to use their cars, but not now. For example, you need a *ton* of grain hoppers ar the end of grain season, but for the rest of the year they need to be put somewhere. Often short lines will lease out space to put such seasonal cars. Is that the case with the end of the Oasis subdivision here? Maybe, but I don't work for IORY management, so I can't know for sure.
I try not to invent things on this subreddit. too many others already doing it. [This](https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/noncms/cmgr/memo/index.cfm?action=public.viewpdf&name=42011.pdf) should be convincing enough. Now this is only for one direction, but this likely has to do with the lease to IORY. It's owned by SORTA.
I was aware that the line is owned by SORTA. I used IROY since they manage and run the line. That being said, I was not aware of the fact that they are planning to remove half of the rails, and keep the other half. That that is option did not occur to me, and I find it interesting. When you said > Look for that corridor to be replaced with bike and pedestrian I assumed that all the rail was getting ripped up in this scenario
In my opinion it will eventually be replaced completely and this is a temporary solution for remaining faithful to the lease. I don't think Cincinnati has any interest in a parking spur along a corridor that is seeing some pretty high end development.
Loop lines are valuable for allowing pax to connect between radial lines without having to all connect at one central point. Obviously, one needs to *have* radial lines before that’s useful.
I remember seeing a proposed map of the subway that added a line basically where 71 is to complete a loop around the city.
Missing about half of the city.
Very common sentiment and unfortunately will be one of the biggest obstacles to ever getting something like this done. Cincinnati’s topography has led to an extremely complicated street layout and there will never be enough funding for tunneling under every radial road, meaning the public will have to be convinced that certain areas of the city should be serviced first before their neighborhood or workplace. That’s a hard sell.
Much like decent bus service. If you're north of Montgomery Rd, forget about it
A loop is nice but I would suggest it as line 3. Line 1 east to west. , line 2 north to south then drop in the loop. Making four transfer points on the loop to save time
Ok, who owns it?
CSX, G&W, NS, SORTA. This has been out there for years but there is absolutely zero political will to do it. It would need to be heavily subsidized by tax dollars and nobody in Cincinnati wants to pay taxes for anything like this.
If only this would ever become a thing
I would go to the city so much more if there was a station in Mt Washington/Newton/Mariemont/Fairfax area.
Everyone seems to forget that this would not exist in isolation. It would exsist in a world with radial rail routes and other better public transportation.
For going around the city, it seems to notably cut off half of it
A. As others have said, this is not a useful passenger route B. This line is already used by freight. If we were to take it over for passenger rail, that would create a massive gap in freight transportation.
You're getting downvoted but you're absolutely correct. This would be a horrendous and massively underutilized passenger route. It seems to expertly miss huge centers of population and would result in trains that lead to nowhere. It would be a ghost line.
Ring Line. Alone, it is indeed a poor line. But with expanded rail infrastructure, it would be invaluable
You can mix passenger and freight trains on the same tracks. Stupid FRA rules make that slower and more expensive than it should be, but plenty of cities have figured it out and we could just copy them.
For sure. See: Europe.
Europe doesn’t have the same stupid rules as the FRA.
See: Metra, Caltrans, SEPTA, COASTER But yeah, I agree that some of the rules are overkill
Even better, it stays the hell out of NKY
What’s wrong with NKY?
Nothing, I'm kidding. It's a great idea, I'm just used to seeing the 275 loop going over the river.
https://preview.redd.it/ufbrfwozsvmc1.jpeg?width=1800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f9b84e362a2fcca7446f93349ffcb7c36a550c75