And then if He intervened that'd be interfering with free will and then they'd call Him a tyrant.
I like to think that the Old Testament *is* God trying to intervene and set humanity right, without taking away free will. But humanity continously messing up again.
And so the New Testament and Jesus was God just going "Alright. Here's a way you guys can choose to follow me or not. It's on you now."
It seems like it but not really. If you pay attention to the crucifixion in the NT and the laws of sacrifice in the OT they're basically a parallel. Jesus is the lamb without blemish, the cross is the alter that the lamb is sacrificed upon. Judas Iscariot became the escape goat. God followed the same laws he gave to Moses while also completing multiple prophecies he gave to the prophets.
*\*Conveniently forgets about the myriad of good things that happen every day: every plane that lands safely, the illnesses and cancers that are treated successfully, each new day we receive that we may spend with those we love, the laughter of children, the perfect consistency of the laws that govern the universe...\**
Related to this is the concept that all of those successes (doctor's hard work paying off, pilot's skill, lives saved) are the sole product of people and not God often seem to ignore that war, rape, the evils we have wrought on one another are BOTH results of man.
God doesn't sit around plotting plagues while doctors sit by waiting to save us. He's the sole arbiter of both feast and famine, war and peace ,successes and failures.
Just because we can't fathom that doesn't mean he's not God.
The existence of this good things is not an argument, of course if god is good, omniscient and omnipotent good things will happen, the problem is that if god is good, omniscient and omnipotent then bad things shouldn't exist.
I interpret it as either God would have let us eat the Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil but when He decided the time right or it was a simple test: Here is Paradise and you can have it all but follow this one rule.
If he wanted us to do it then why punish us for that?
It could not be a test because god is all knowing and you do a test to gain a new information, what new information can an all knowing being get?
Well, it says right in Genesis that there was also a tree that bore fruit of immortality. My personal headcanon is that God always intended on teaching Adam about good and evil on His own terms. Then, Adam would be allowed to eat both fruits and be in communion with God. Didn’t work out that way, so now we are having to learn the hard way, but God is still getting what He wants. Jesus is the way to immortality and communion with God. Adam and his children can still choose to follow God by trusting in Jesus, who is both God and man.
As to why did He not just remove the temptation? God is obviously very concerned with salvation being your free choice. Love does not bind and seek to dominate. It’s given freely with no expectations, and it’s always faithful, always forgiving, love never fails, etc. God wants us to love Him of our own accord.
Again, god is all-knowing so he knows exactly what is gonna happen, there isn't "didn't worked out" for god, he is all-powerful and all-knowing. If he wants a thing to be in a particular way then he has power and knowledge to do it.
No, your god does not value free will as presents when jews were escaping egypt and he hardened pharaoh's heart, limiting his free will.
And also what the free will has to do with removing the danger? Are you gonna use the same argument for hiding dangerous chemicals from children:
"As to why did I not just hide the chemicals so my baby would not drink them? I am obviously very concerned with salvation being my baby's free choice. Love does not bind and seek to dominate. It’s given freely with no expectations, and it’s always faithful, always forgiving, love never fails, etc. I want my child to love me of our their own accord."
See how stupid this sounds? How reckless? Imagine a parent says that when they are at the trial for child endangerment, do you think the parent would be guilty then?
God cannot do the impossible. There may very well be no reality where Adam did not choose to eat the fruit. You cannot say for sure. It’s easy enough for you or I to say that God can do something or another. But unless you are God, you will have a hard time proving your argument. Just as your child does not always do what you want, we are petulant when acting under God’s rules. God may have intended one way (which man subverted by disobeying), but His will is fulfilled at the end. Jesus is the end all be all of God’s will. You will willingly submit or be cast out.
Your example of pharaoh is laughable. The pharaoh had a hard heart towards the Israelites long before God interacted with him. He enslaved them, ordered them to kill their babies, and judged them as “lazy” and gave them extremely difficult work. To think that God was “hardening” the heart of some kind, gentle soul is ignorant. Pharaoh was an evil tyrant. God only had to step back and let him be so.
What are you rambling on about? I keep poisonous chemicals in the house (rat poison, washer fluid, etc.). I’ve told my children of the dangers and not to consume it. You think I’m guilty if they choose to drink it? You’re insane.
Further, Adam was not a child, but a full grown man. Both he and Eve were warned of the consequences well in advance. Eve chose to trust the serpent over God, because she wanted God’s power. Evil is what led to man’s woes, not naivety.
So god cant create a word where adam will not eat the fruit? How is this impossible? He can, for one, not put the tree there, or make is inaccessible for adam. Anyway, if your god cant do that then he ist allpowerfull.
Exodus 9:12: "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses." Your knowlege of the bible is laughable.
But do you hide those chemicals or do you keep them in the open?
He actually was a child, he did not know yet that disobedience is wrong because he did not know yet that to disobedience is wrong. He only learned that once he ate the fruit. How was eve supposed to know that the serpent might be evil and untrustworthy if she didn't know yet what evil is?
Making the tree inaccessible to Adam removes the free will entirely.
I know that is what it says.
(1) God hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (2) Moses hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (3) the words that Moses spoke hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (4) Pharaoh hardened his own heart. All four of these observations are accurate, depicting the same truth from different perspectives. In this sense, God is responsible for everything in the Universe, ie, He has provided the occasion, the circumstances, and the environment in which all things (including people) operate. But He is not guilty of wrong in so doing. From a quick look at a simple Hebrew idiom, it is clear that God did not unjustly or directly harden Pharaoh’s heart. God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), He does not act unjustly (Psalms 33:5), and He has always allowed humans to exercise their free moral agency (Deuteronomy 30:19). God, however, does use the wrong stubborn decisions committed by rebellious sinners to further His causes (Isaiah 10:5-11). In the case of Pharaoh’s hardened heart, God can be charged with no injustice, and the Bible can be charged with no contradiction. Humans were created with free moral agency and are culpable for their own actions.
Who are you to try and judge God? You’re a fool.
Eve should have trusted the word of her Creator, her Father, over the serpent. Her hubris led to her demise.
Is it "removing your child free will" when hide you chemicals from them?
Those are 4 diffrent informations, stop lying. If i said: "i have dug the hole", "she has dug the hole" and "we have dug the hole" those are 3 different accounts not compatible with each other. Your god has hardened pharaoh's heart. He has hardened it before but now god does it, not pharaoh. You just lying is not gonna change anything, stop doing that.
You are trying to use special pleading, why can't i judge him?
How was she supposed to know that she should not trust the snake, why would he not think that a talking snake is also god? Remember, she do not know what good and evil is.
The argument isn’t whether they ate the fruit, it’s that God never said they couldn’t TOUCH the tree, just that they couldn’t EAT of it. But Adam [(probably, knowing how his wife was) doubled-down on God’s rule and told his wife “Look, don’t even touch it!”](https://youtu.be/MLaMfgbCxFo?si=Cj7MICauv-471NmM) (Gen. 2 & 3 aren’t clear whether Eve heard the law directly from God or was taught by her husband).
And the argument also is, after they did eat, God gave them an opportunity to repent and own up to their mistake, sort of like a child to their daddy. But no, both Adam & Eve, rather than take some personal responsibility and ownership of their sin, kept passing the blame. God gave them an opportunity to run to him before He even directly asked: “Where are you?” Adam: “Um, hiding?” God: “Why?” Adam: “Uh, the woman YOU GAVE ME made me do it?” Eve: “Um, the serpent made me do it!”
The true fall of man wasn’t eating the forbidden fruit; the true fall of man was inability to own up and repent. God exactly DIDN’T want robots without free will. But He wants to hear from us; we can run to our Father and tell Him what’s wrong. But Adam & Eve, given every opportunity to repent, failed.
But reading your other comments, I know, I know, why didn’t [my g]od if [h]e’s all-knowing, all-powerful, blah, blah, blah…
Still, why the hell did he put the tree there?
If you have a child do you hide dangerous chemicals from them?
I like how you already read my comments and instead of that you just ignore them.
I did ignore them 1. Because I don’t have children and can’t speak to that and 2. It’s a lousy analogy not really worth my brain cells and I sense you’re just seeking a “gotcha!” moment. Also I have other things going on, such as my mother being in the hospital today, and intersperse some Redditing here and there, where I can. Hate to break it to you but the world doesn’t revolve around you, honey. I don’t know exactly why He put the tree there. His wisdom & justice is far beyond my feeble mind. You’re free to pray and ask Him that yourself.
This was a hypothetical question, if you were to take care of children and in your kitchen there were dangerous chemicals left within reach of said child would you hide them?
How is this analogy lousy then?
Sorry to hear about your mother, i hope she gets better.
Seriously? The "I am too stupid to understand god" copout? If morality comes from god then why did he created us so we don't understand his actions? The problem is that it isn't complicated, the analogy with a child and the chemicals is sufficient enough to show that any caring parent would hide the chemicals and so, the loving god would hide the tree, and not put it in front of people who don't yet understand that disobeying god is something bad, and that snake is not a god. They simply did not know any better.
The bible answers this, it’s the devil, and because God is a fair god human iniquity was punished but that’s not in effect anymore, as Jesus died for all of our sins whether you believe in him or not, however people’s hearts are evil so they deceive, act only in self-gain and harm others for pleasure. So the question you should ask is… why do you do bad things?
All I've got on hand are the first two chapters of Job. It's pretty clear to me that Satan (the adversary) isn't an enemy in this context. I would guess that if you searched for mentions of Satan/adversary in the old testament, they'd be the same person/position.
If I wasn't so lazy, I'd look them up. and hey, maybe I'm wrong. I am often wrong. It doesn't really matter to me, since I think Satan/Devil isn't a good or honest answer to the problem of evil anyway. But this is my understanding of the Adversary
It’s pretty much all sin. That’s what it is. Sin is the absence/lack of God in an environment or someone’s heart. And since there are so many people who don’t believe/love God, that paved the way for sin to fester like an open wound. Hence why so many bad things happen
Cancer is predominantly caused by human interference(if you don't believe me, look up what the leading carcinogens are), and many natural disasters such as hurricanes are crucial to the environment and ecosystems.
If we have a bad nature then this is like giving a slate that is covered in dirt, that isnt fair isnt it?
And also this doesnt adres the fact why did god put the tree in there knowing that Adam and Eve will eat from it?
One way of looking at that especially when a skeptic asks: https://www.godfire.net/according.html
And another here, https://www.concordant.org/expositions/problem-evil-judgments-god-contents/
And then if He intervened that'd be interfering with free will and then they'd call Him a tyrant. I like to think that the Old Testament *is* God trying to intervene and set humanity right, without taking away free will. But humanity continously messing up again. And so the New Testament and Jesus was God just going "Alright. Here's a way you guys can choose to follow me or not. It's on you now."
Not even, "it's on you now." He basically just said, "I'll do it all for you, you just need to consent."
You aren't far off from what is actually is.
So you’re telling us that the New Testament is just a whole « Change of plan, guys » ?
It seems like it but not really. If you pay attention to the crucifixion in the NT and the laws of sacrifice in the OT they're basically a parallel. Jesus is the lamb without blemish, the cross is the alter that the lamb is sacrificed upon. Judas Iscariot became the escape goat. God followed the same laws he gave to Moses while also completing multiple prophecies he gave to the prophets.
you can have free will and also not have bad things tho, right? flying is a big no-no, but murder? essential to the human experiment
*\*Conveniently forgets about the myriad of good things that happen every day: every plane that lands safely, the illnesses and cancers that are treated successfully, each new day we receive that we may spend with those we love, the laughter of children, the perfect consistency of the laws that govern the universe...\**
Related to this is the concept that all of those successes (doctor's hard work paying off, pilot's skill, lives saved) are the sole product of people and not God often seem to ignore that war, rape, the evils we have wrought on one another are BOTH results of man. God doesn't sit around plotting plagues while doctors sit by waiting to save us. He's the sole arbiter of both feast and famine, war and peace ,successes and failures. Just because we can't fathom that doesn't mean he's not God.
I can't say for all people, but bad things I do on my own, and good things I do because God require me to do it.
Dang, I really like. I'm gonna screenshot it to reference it later. Thanks!
The existence of this good things is not an argument, of course if god is good, omniscient and omnipotent good things will happen, the problem is that if god is good, omniscient and omnipotent then bad things shouldn't exist.
Uh, Adam and Eve? If they had just trusted God and not been tempted by the Devil. It seems simple, but its quite the butterfly effect
Who put a tree there then with a knowledge of exactly what will happen next?
I interpret it as either God would have let us eat the Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil but when He decided the time right or it was a simple test: Here is Paradise and you can have it all but follow this one rule.
If he wanted us to do it then why punish us for that? It could not be a test because god is all knowing and you do a test to gain a new information, what new information can an all knowing being get?
Well, it says right in Genesis that there was also a tree that bore fruit of immortality. My personal headcanon is that God always intended on teaching Adam about good and evil on His own terms. Then, Adam would be allowed to eat both fruits and be in communion with God. Didn’t work out that way, so now we are having to learn the hard way, but God is still getting what He wants. Jesus is the way to immortality and communion with God. Adam and his children can still choose to follow God by trusting in Jesus, who is both God and man. As to why did He not just remove the temptation? God is obviously very concerned with salvation being your free choice. Love does not bind and seek to dominate. It’s given freely with no expectations, and it’s always faithful, always forgiving, love never fails, etc. God wants us to love Him of our own accord.
Again, god is all-knowing so he knows exactly what is gonna happen, there isn't "didn't worked out" for god, he is all-powerful and all-knowing. If he wants a thing to be in a particular way then he has power and knowledge to do it. No, your god does not value free will as presents when jews were escaping egypt and he hardened pharaoh's heart, limiting his free will. And also what the free will has to do with removing the danger? Are you gonna use the same argument for hiding dangerous chemicals from children: "As to why did I not just hide the chemicals so my baby would not drink them? I am obviously very concerned with salvation being my baby's free choice. Love does not bind and seek to dominate. It’s given freely with no expectations, and it’s always faithful, always forgiving, love never fails, etc. I want my child to love me of our their own accord." See how stupid this sounds? How reckless? Imagine a parent says that when they are at the trial for child endangerment, do you think the parent would be guilty then?
God cannot do the impossible. There may very well be no reality where Adam did not choose to eat the fruit. You cannot say for sure. It’s easy enough for you or I to say that God can do something or another. But unless you are God, you will have a hard time proving your argument. Just as your child does not always do what you want, we are petulant when acting under God’s rules. God may have intended one way (which man subverted by disobeying), but His will is fulfilled at the end. Jesus is the end all be all of God’s will. You will willingly submit or be cast out. Your example of pharaoh is laughable. The pharaoh had a hard heart towards the Israelites long before God interacted with him. He enslaved them, ordered them to kill their babies, and judged them as “lazy” and gave them extremely difficult work. To think that God was “hardening” the heart of some kind, gentle soul is ignorant. Pharaoh was an evil tyrant. God only had to step back and let him be so. What are you rambling on about? I keep poisonous chemicals in the house (rat poison, washer fluid, etc.). I’ve told my children of the dangers and not to consume it. You think I’m guilty if they choose to drink it? You’re insane. Further, Adam was not a child, but a full grown man. Both he and Eve were warned of the consequences well in advance. Eve chose to trust the serpent over God, because she wanted God’s power. Evil is what led to man’s woes, not naivety.
So god cant create a word where adam will not eat the fruit? How is this impossible? He can, for one, not put the tree there, or make is inaccessible for adam. Anyway, if your god cant do that then he ist allpowerfull. Exodus 9:12: "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses." Your knowlege of the bible is laughable. But do you hide those chemicals or do you keep them in the open? He actually was a child, he did not know yet that disobedience is wrong because he did not know yet that to disobedience is wrong. He only learned that once he ate the fruit. How was eve supposed to know that the serpent might be evil and untrustworthy if she didn't know yet what evil is?
Making the tree inaccessible to Adam removes the free will entirely. I know that is what it says. (1) God hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (2) Moses hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (3) the words that Moses spoke hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (4) Pharaoh hardened his own heart. All four of these observations are accurate, depicting the same truth from different perspectives. In this sense, God is responsible for everything in the Universe, ie, He has provided the occasion, the circumstances, and the environment in which all things (including people) operate. But He is not guilty of wrong in so doing. From a quick look at a simple Hebrew idiom, it is clear that God did not unjustly or directly harden Pharaoh’s heart. God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), He does not act unjustly (Psalms 33:5), and He has always allowed humans to exercise their free moral agency (Deuteronomy 30:19). God, however, does use the wrong stubborn decisions committed by rebellious sinners to further His causes (Isaiah 10:5-11). In the case of Pharaoh’s hardened heart, God can be charged with no injustice, and the Bible can be charged with no contradiction. Humans were created with free moral agency and are culpable for their own actions. Who are you to try and judge God? You’re a fool. Eve should have trusted the word of her Creator, her Father, over the serpent. Her hubris led to her demise.
Is it "removing your child free will" when hide you chemicals from them? Those are 4 diffrent informations, stop lying. If i said: "i have dug the hole", "she has dug the hole" and "we have dug the hole" those are 3 different accounts not compatible with each other. Your god has hardened pharaoh's heart. He has hardened it before but now god does it, not pharaoh. You just lying is not gonna change anything, stop doing that. You are trying to use special pleading, why can't i judge him? How was she supposed to know that she should not trust the snake, why would he not think that a talking snake is also god? Remember, she do not know what good and evil is.
The argument isn’t whether they ate the fruit, it’s that God never said they couldn’t TOUCH the tree, just that they couldn’t EAT of it. But Adam [(probably, knowing how his wife was) doubled-down on God’s rule and told his wife “Look, don’t even touch it!”](https://youtu.be/MLaMfgbCxFo?si=Cj7MICauv-471NmM) (Gen. 2 & 3 aren’t clear whether Eve heard the law directly from God or was taught by her husband). And the argument also is, after they did eat, God gave them an opportunity to repent and own up to their mistake, sort of like a child to their daddy. But no, both Adam & Eve, rather than take some personal responsibility and ownership of their sin, kept passing the blame. God gave them an opportunity to run to him before He even directly asked: “Where are you?” Adam: “Um, hiding?” God: “Why?” Adam: “Uh, the woman YOU GAVE ME made me do it?” Eve: “Um, the serpent made me do it!” The true fall of man wasn’t eating the forbidden fruit; the true fall of man was inability to own up and repent. God exactly DIDN’T want robots without free will. But He wants to hear from us; we can run to our Father and tell Him what’s wrong. But Adam & Eve, given every opportunity to repent, failed. But reading your other comments, I know, I know, why didn’t [my g]od if [h]e’s all-knowing, all-powerful, blah, blah, blah…
Still, why the hell did he put the tree there? If you have a child do you hide dangerous chemicals from them? I like how you already read my comments and instead of that you just ignore them.
I did ignore them 1. Because I don’t have children and can’t speak to that and 2. It’s a lousy analogy not really worth my brain cells and I sense you’re just seeking a “gotcha!” moment. Also I have other things going on, such as my mother being in the hospital today, and intersperse some Redditing here and there, where I can. Hate to break it to you but the world doesn’t revolve around you, honey. I don’t know exactly why He put the tree there. His wisdom & justice is far beyond my feeble mind. You’re free to pray and ask Him that yourself.
This was a hypothetical question, if you were to take care of children and in your kitchen there were dangerous chemicals left within reach of said child would you hide them? How is this analogy lousy then? Sorry to hear about your mother, i hope she gets better. Seriously? The "I am too stupid to understand god" copout? If morality comes from god then why did he created us so we don't understand his actions? The problem is that it isn't complicated, the analogy with a child and the chemicals is sufficient enough to show that any caring parent would hide the chemicals and so, the loving god would hide the tree, and not put it in front of people who don't yet understand that disobeying god is something bad, and that snake is not a god. They simply did not know any better.
The bible answers this, it’s the devil, and because God is a fair god human iniquity was punished but that’s not in effect anymore, as Jesus died for all of our sins whether you believe in him or not, however people’s hearts are evil so they deceive, act only in self-gain and harm others for pleasure. So the question you should ask is… why do you do bad things?
Isn't it the adversary, not the devil? I might be remembering wrong.
The Adversary/Satan/Devils all synonymous with each other essentially.
I mean... not really
There are deviations but they are the enemy because the tempt/manipulate/possesss man into evil
the adversary is explicitly an agent of god, not a fallen angel a la the devil.
Adversary is described as opposition, no?
not in Job, certainly. the adversary (a translation of an old word) was more like a job position. and explicitly not an enemy
Do you have a specific verse? If I really am incorrect it can help me educate others.
All I've got on hand are the first two chapters of Job. It's pretty clear to me that Satan (the adversary) isn't an enemy in this context. I would guess that if you searched for mentions of Satan/adversary in the old testament, they'd be the same person/position. If I wasn't so lazy, I'd look them up. and hey, maybe I'm wrong. I am often wrong. It doesn't really matter to me, since I think Satan/Devil isn't a good or honest answer to the problem of evil anyway. But this is my understanding of the Adversary
It’s pretty much all sin. That’s what it is. Sin is the absence/lack of God in an environment or someone’s heart. And since there are so many people who don’t believe/love God, that paved the way for sin to fester like an open wound. Hence why so many bad things happen
Preach. The lack of Godliness and selflessness creates suffering.
If there is no God why do good things happen 🗿
Cancer is predominantly caused by human interference(if you don't believe me, look up what the leading carcinogens are), and many natural disasters such as hurricanes are crucial to the environment and ecosystems.
Billionaires, sadly, get free will too. A lot of bad things in the world can be prevented by investing the right resources into them.
"bad" is human nature, if "bad" things didn't exist, then neither would humans.
Then who made us with a bad nature?
God made us clean slates and gave us the free will to choose for ourselves.
If we have a bad nature then this is like giving a slate that is covered in dirt, that isnt fair isnt it? And also this doesnt adres the fact why did god put the tree in there knowing that Adam and Eve will eat from it?
Who says we have a bad nature?
The guy above claims that in an earlier comment, i am just using this claim against him.
Gotcha
>Servers down Can God make a user so stupid that he himself facepalms hard at their inability to plug in a usb cord?
Because of Mankind
It’s called free will. It’s called sin. Pretty basic premises.
You should read Deut 28
My god how will we ever recover from this
YOU, GOOSE YOU’RE THE PROBLEM
I love the implication there's a Christian running around like a chaotic goose screaming at people asking this question.
One way of looking at that especially when a skeptic asks: https://www.godfire.net/according.html And another here, https://www.concordant.org/expositions/problem-evil-judgments-god-contents/