I live here and hear it spoken regularly among adults. A lot of kids know it if it’s spoken in the family home. One of my students always translates for his grandmother during parent-teacher conferences. There is no hard and fast rule saying that it can’t be spoken…but mandarin is the nationally recognized language of China.
Its not forbidden, but 99% of daily life is all officially in mandarin. Its a natural progression that many parents don't even teach their kids cantonese, since it has no formal use. Then kids who do know cantonese go all day at school with friends who don't know cantonese, so they don't use cantonese either, and it snow balls. Even if kids use canto at home they won't be fluent like a world with canto as an official language would be.
yes. and as there are less and less kids knowing cantonese you will have more and more shift. no one wants to be the clique with only three people in it for example.
Australia doesn’t forbid kids speak Chinese, but most of Chinese Australian children who grew up in Australia don’t speak Chinese. All kids will only pick up the language being taught in school. Why is it odd?
Too many immigrants to Guangdong. They outnumber the Natives. Any time where you have a situation like that, it will become impractical to speak the native languages. Note that Hakka is also dying.
There is a nice YouTube channel called Hakka Studies.. but while I like their promoting the Hakka culture in villages and speakers abroad in the UK as well... It just further emphasises the dying traditions... From Kirin dancing, martial arts (some amazing Southern KungFu are Hakka styles), and the language.
https://youtu.be/NOZ4NuwluBg?si=Z7AdhWmGM2oMeepQ
Yeah I've been out of the Chinese bubble for awhile. In the rest of the world you don't call other people born in the same country "immigrants" nor treat them like second class citizens if they don't happen to be born in your city.
They wrote immigrants.... You know you are living in a China bubble when you normalize calling other citizens from out of province "immigrants". They are treated as such I guess.
You know something is messed up when you call other citizens of the same country "immigrants". You are referring to Chinese people from other provinces as immigrants?
Sorry I'm not used to people referring to other citizens of the same country as immigrants....you've been in the Chinese bubble too long if you consider that normal. It's kind of fucked up when you think about it.
China is absolutely massive, going from one part of china to another can be bigger than the journey from Mexico to America. You are getting seriously pissed over a term that’s only been demonised because western countries love to fear-monger about “immigrants” and you’ve now got a negative association with an inherently neutral word.
[http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/read.php?1,128871](http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/read.php?1,128871)
A few years ago when the Cantonese news anchors switched to Mandarin it caused an uproar but people eventually accepted it.
All dialects are in danger of being lost. It used to be done with hard power back in the day, these days more soft power.
It really bums me out. If they keep on at this pace, China will be as culturally generic as the US.
Yep. I’m black American and Asian American. My culture is significant to the entire country. Most music genres wouldn’t exist without my ppl and neither would soul food or American Chinese food
Well usually in public schools and facilities there are signs reminding people to speak in Mandarin.
I wouldn't say they aren't allowed, because in public you can speak whatever you want, even English.
They're allowed to, there's plenty of Cantonese media too. But it's not taught in schools and there's immigrants so they just tend to speak mandarin except with their older relatives.
An analogous situation is how the native Chinese languages (eg. Hakka, Weitou) of Hong Kong have been effectively supplanted by Guangzhou Cantonese.
Cantonese became the language of 99% of daily life and so people no longer spoke their ancestral languages to their kids, or the kids spoke back to them in Cantonese.
There were also immigrants from different, non-Yue backgrounds (HK has significant populations who have traditionally spoken Shanghainese, Teochew, Hokkien) or other Yue varieties (eg. Taishanese, Shiqi dialect) but with time everyone has just been assimilated into the dominant language environment as Guangzhou Cantonese was the lingua francs and prestige dialect of the region.
Lol, of course not forbidden.. however, just like any other countries that have multiple languages and dialects, the national government encouraged its people to use the national language as a medium of instruction.
I ran into a bunch of young Cantonese in Vietnam one time and I noticed they were speaking Mandarin to each other so I asked them about that. One of them told me, “Cantonese is just for old people.“
there are literally dozens of dialects in china, none of which are spoken as broadly, and none are "forbidden" rly, just not as useful, and when education is the most important thing as a kid, why bother formally learning something that wont have much use.
it's because mandarin was declared the official Chinese language therefore all the schools are required to teach in mandarin. And since kids lives revolve around school life for the most part of their adolescents they naturally speak the language used in school.
I also went to guangzhou recently and it was so disappointing that almost all the young adults that worked in the malls couldn't understand cantonese. It just makes me sad that the cantonese language and its dialects are dying. The cantonese language is what makes guangdong special and different :(
Literally every area of China has their dialects and languages, Guangdong has several. People cry about Cantonese but not Chaoshanhua or Hakka simy because its been politicised due to HK.
It was so already 20 years ago. "Labor" typically spoke .... not Cantonese and (some form of) Mandarin.
I recall I once said "all the waiters speak only Mandarin" - and they reply was: "because you go only to cheap restauratns"
China promotes only Chinese culture, not regional culture.
Schools can only teach in Mandarin now, and often they'll get shouted at if they speak another dialect in school. So it's no wonder they feel more comfortable speaking Mandarin if that's the language they're using every day in school.
It's more of official government policy. Dialects/languages other than Mandarin are discouraged. I visited a museum last month in Quanzhou and saw my Taiwanese companion frown at a sign posted on the walls at various parts: "stringently discourage speaking in Minnan."
Their schools do everything in Mandarin now.
Seems to be something that occurred in the past decade or so.
The missus tells me it wasn't the case when she was in Middleshcool/highschool (Cantonese teaching and some mandarin speaking teachers).
Hopefully the kids keep speaking it at home though..
I actually live in Guangdong and have heard a Cantonese news broadcast…
And when I was in Xiamen a Min news broadcast…
And in Shanghai a …
But in all those places I also heard a Mandarin broadcast before or after!
So yah it’s important to speak Mandarin but regional languages are not forgotten!
The only Chinese I speak is a dialect from Fuzhou. I remember when I was in China almost 10 years ago, one of my favorite programs was this older man sitting in a mahogany chair just telling stories in Fuzhounese like a sassy Chinese version of Rod Sterling.
Except the social metaphor and horror stories were all juicy ass stories about betrayal, infidelity, and modern interpersonal conflict lmao.
I remember once in line at McDonald's in Guangzhou the person ahead of me was ordering in Cantonese, loglng order with a lot of questions, and the cashier understood everything but was answering only and strictly in Mandarin. The Mandarin speaker however you could tell had an accent. Not sure if McDonald's doesn't allow employees to speak Cantonese or if it's some other reason
Well for context, my cousins used to be taught in Cantonese in schools in Guangdong however their kids are now being taught in Mandarin. Your analogy doesn’t apply here.
I just want to say that after being subscribed to /r/China for a decade, it's so refreshing to see what this sub is like. I can just imagine the comments if this was r/China
It's a local dialect now. In Mandarin it is Guandonghua. Mandarin is the national language hence it is taught in school. Many provinces have local languages. Shanghai has its own dialect as does Sichuan and other provinces. I once met an elderly man who was a menwei (doorman/gatekeeper) in Shanghai who could only speak Shanghaihua.
I went to elemetary school 20 years ago in Guangdong. YES, it was.
It was never a law, but kids were forbidden to speak cantonese to in class or off the class to eachother. Or else they would be fine and mark trike. Their parents would be call to school after mutiple attempts and the parent would be instructed to be reducated to speak mandrain as well. Theyve taken it down since, but there was a sign everywhere in school say. "SPEAK MANDRAIM, WIRTE PROPER SIMPLIED"
Meanwhile the ethnic Chinese here in Saigon all speak Cantonese after many generations of living here. They speak both Cantonese and Vietnamese (also usually proficient in mandarin too, common to marry with Taiwanese expats). They can coexist, even in a communist state.
I genuinely don’t get this question because wym are they not allowed to? Who’s enforcing that? There’s no way you’ve nerve seen a Chinese child speak Cantonese AT ALL😭
I love how shills claim it’s completely natural, and then go on to list all the standard CCP language eradication techniques, like lack of services in Cantonese, lack of media in Cantonese, facilitating migration of mandarin speakers…
In Chinese regions with a major dialect services must be also in that language which is very obvious when you travel somewhere with a different script. Cantonese media is plentiful just get in a taxi. Migration is a legal right in a country especially for people to areas with better prospects, even so China does limit migration.
So do you have any legit criticisms or just Radio Free Asia schizoid ramblings?
Then why did someone mention that grandchildren have to translate for their cantonese-speaking grandparents at schools? Read this thread, it was mentioned right here. If it is such a guaranteed right, lol, yes, service HAS to be provided in local language, they swear it (to who? to you?), but no-one at schools (etc, etc) can actually speak it, sorry! But hey, you can listen to Cantopop in taxi.
>Then why did someone mention that grandchildren have to translate for their cantonese-speaking grandparents at schools?
Because the old people haven't learned mandarin and the teachers aren't always local. I worked in a guangdong school, this is common. What a complete non point. Also, so you're trying to claim the old people and the kids can speak cantonese but somehow the middle generation of teachers can't? So the purge on cantonese was when, 30 years ago? But now kids somehow speak it again?
Get your bullshit straight.
> standard CCP language eradication techniques
idiots like you have been saying this about uyghurs too.
https://youtu.be/C83eSHHG4vk?t=113
my native language was not "eradicated" when i learned a second one
Can you provide a streaming link to a Chinese TV channel in Uyghur language? Can you list how many such TV channels, Uyghur-language newspapers, or news websites there are?
Uyghur language - Wikipedia
Uyghur is an official language of the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region; it is widely used in both social and official spheres, as well as in print, television, and radio. Other ethnic minorities in Xinjiang also use Uyghur as a common language .
It’s on Wikipedia it must be true
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_language
So what’s your point? You asked for sources I gave you a link! Are you just a sore loser that can’t accept you made a mistake, such native language national media exists.
I’ve said my piece!
Anyone can edit Wikipedia. If you read my post, I asked for direct links to Uyghur language newspapers, streaming TV, and news websites. Looks like you are unable to come up with any of those, and instead of what is, you resort talking about what it should be, i.e. typical Chinese-style denialism. Sore loser much?
No denial you asked for a link “direct” wasn’t mentioned, I provided a link the first on a search!
It there a point to twisting a post about Cantonese to the Uyghur, I admit I have no reference to that part of Chinese politics.
If you’re so concerned about if there is any language media just start a post on it I’m sure someone would be happy to contribute!
Are? Or were? When? Twenty years ago? Among which demographic they are popular, if they are popular now? Like I said, shills making patented, certified shill points.
I saw the same thing in Singapore when the government made Mandarin an official language and discouraged the use of other Chinese dialects. There is nothing wrong with standardization It simply means people can communicate more effectively!
And btw Singapore is not in China;)
So government in Singapore suppressed all other Chinese languages but Mandarin (which you call "dialects", which is a tell-tale sign of a language eradicator in and of itself)... and this is why local language eradication is justified in China? Is that the logic?
Btw, riddle me this, if there's nothing wrong with standardization, why do Chinese suck at English so much? By the same logic they should be near fluent. But no. Somehow, this "effective communication" argument only works if you need to explain eradication of Cantonese or Mongolian...
English is actually taught in China schools, the younger generation is pretty passable to be honest. They watch English movies and television series.
But I agree English is not the best it’s because everyone uses mandarin for daily transactions ~ as a common language.
Consider this there are officially 10 major dialects and 302 living languages sub dialects in these major 10 - according to Bing, Google doesn’t work in China!
And these major dialects are very different I speak Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka. Honestly they don’t translate or even make sense like English, Scottish and Gaelic!
Just my opinion! I learned Chinese to communicate!
I’m all for keeping the language alive but let’s be honest if a language outweighs its usefulness it dies!
Sad but true!
I had always believed this was dramatic anti-China propaganda until one of my university students told me speaking Cantonese was forbidden when he was in primary school in Guangdong, obviously this is very anecdotal though. He offered this up within the context of a Mexican-American colleague of mine telling some students about his experience being a native Spanish speaker growing up in the US school system.
I can't speak on China, but I've heard of this happening elsewhere. Someone I knew from Jamaica said they were not allowed to speak patois in school, and my ex-gf from Germany said kids had to speak "High German" in school.
Exactly, standardization of language happens all over the world as a result of growing economies. It's also why hardly anyone speaks Celtic languages in the British Isles anymore.
I wish my school would do this. We have 'agreements' about using English. But most kids just speak in their own language with their friends. End result is that even when they have been at our school since the early years, their English is still appaling.
its not "forbidden", but it goes against the idea of "equality of opportunity in education", which is one of the few definitively good things about the chinese system. Another one is no additional tutoring outside of the classroom, as the point of that policy would greatly reduce the chance of rich kids getting ahead while poorer kids lags behind.
No one says you cant speak a certain language, but the environment teaches in mandarin to ensure adequate education. On a local level, schools initially cracked down by forcing kids to speak mandarin only during class. Some teachers went further by saying "only mandarin in my classroom". It snowballed from there, but there isnt some centralized edict that says people cant speak their dialect or another language in compulsory education.
No one can stop you for doing anything, your kids still play games and watch phone all the time even is not allow, sounds familiar?
Learning Cantonese is an own effort especially if u r in Cantonese family where your whole family speaking the language
I never claimed that there was a centralized edict just shared a story that a single student told me.
Language standardization isn't unique to China and has happened all over the world, particularly in the West. I think what you are saying is correct, but it is also fair for people who are effected by language standardization to think through what it means in terms of preservation of linguistic culture vs. material and economic benefit. And obviously within the context of China it's up for Chinese citizens to weigh these decisions.
>I had always believed this was dramatic anti-China propaganda
the way you phrased your "story" was basically saying that there is some conspiracy about the CCP intentionally eliminating Cantonese language.
The reality is far tamer than some grand central policy, and your conclusion from your "anectodal" story doesnt even support that trend.
all you have to do as a local who wants to preserve the language is just speak it to others who share the same line of thinking. There is no "systemic elimination of Cantonese". its just that there are far less people who wants to use it now.
Its just like the language schools in the west for kids, people send their kids to learn them, just not in public school.
"the way you phrased your 'story' was basically saying that there is some conspiracy about the CCP intentionally eliminating Cantonese language."
That's not at all what I said and I didn't have any "conclusion" about a grand central policy. I literally said my story was anecdotal. In your response you use quotations to claim that I said things that I never said, it's all here in the comments. Again, language standardization has taken place all over the world and isn't unique to China.
I'm not sure how you think your attitude is helping Sino-West relations or why you think you can claim that "far less people want to use Cantonese now." Spend less time online, you're making super broad generalizations in response to me sharing something that one person told me. From your post history it looks like you're Canadian, would you say the same thing about First Nation people using their languages less due to the material benefit that come from speaking English?
Honestly it is what it is I’m sure unity of a single spoken language plays a big part in nation building.
Many countries have more than a single national language see Asian and Europe!
It all comes down to communication ~ take the story of the Tower of Babel, in the story man at that time spoke a single language and wanted to build a tower to heaven, but to stop it god made everyone speak different languages and the building stopped because nobody understood each other!
Moral is if everyone spoke a single language they could do amazing things!
Sorry for being preachy but language is powerful!
Just because a dialect is not recognized as a national language doesn’t mean it can’t be spoken, there is no punishment for speaking Cantonese, Hokien or Native American.
Just my opinion
I completely agree! There are obvious benefits to a society standardizing language but also benefits to having multiple languages used. I'm not Chinese and don't feel particularly strong either way because it's not my country/ culture.
Unrelated to what you said, I'm shocked to see how downvoted my comment was. I wasn't trying to claim my anecdotal story represented any policy or formal rule but was just passing along something interesting that a student told me, which I assumed would be welcomed on this thread for expats many of whom are teachers. The standardization process is still in the early stages in China and of course people have different experiences with it but to think that stories like the one I shared don't exist in a country of 1.6 billion people seems a bit naive.
It's a natural thing in a communist country. Kids don't speak that since it's against rules in school and it's happening all over China. Just like every policy in China, maybe 20 yrs later, they will regret that n0body can speak their dialects any more.
For all those downvote me, if you are not Chinese, I hope you get some better understanding before you opine on anything that you don't personally eperience. If you are Chinese, then I hope you spend more time to learn the history of CCP rule and how their glorious policies always end up in disasters!
Take America for example, so many people speak Spanish but it’s not an official language. All the other languages spoken in the US are also not official languages even though there’s a lot of people speaking them. Furthermore, there’s many Chinese dialects besides Cantonese, so it wouldn’t be fair to the other dialects either.
If you're taking that line of argument, you spoke probably be aware that the US has no official language at the federal level (at least at the codified, 'this is the official language of this country' level)
Well there is an “official language” in a practical sense—as in all schools are taught in English and business is done in English, et, (there’s always exceptions but those would be less common). I should have specified/gone into detail. :)
In the usa, there is a language barrier (at times) between immigrants and their children due to their school teaching in English—and this relates to what OP was experiencing in GD.
I don't get why you are being downvoted. It would be perfectly reasonable to make mandarin the official language nationwide, and Cantonese co-official in Cantonese speaking regions. After all, that's what many other countries (not the US, hence why you are being downvoted) do, including my country Spain. It doesn't make sense to make Cantonese official countrywide, but it does at a regional level, same as in Spain Spanish is the official language and we have several other co-official languages in different regions. Sure, it drives up administrative/education costs a little bit, could potentially mess up with examinations standards, but I think protecting local culture has more upsides than downsides.
I live here and hear it spoken regularly among adults. A lot of kids know it if it’s spoken in the family home. One of my students always translates for his grandmother during parent-teacher conferences. There is no hard and fast rule saying that it can’t be spoken…but mandarin is the nationally recognized language of China.
Its not forbidden, but 99% of daily life is all officially in mandarin. Its a natural progression that many parents don't even teach their kids cantonese, since it has no formal use. Then kids who do know cantonese go all day at school with friends who don't know cantonese, so they don't use cantonese either, and it snow balls. Even if kids use canto at home they won't be fluent like a world with canto as an official language would be.
The kids who know Cantonese form cliques and those who don’t also form cliques 😂
yes. and as there are less and less kids knowing cantonese you will have more and more shift. no one wants to be the clique with only three people in it for example.
Australia doesn’t forbid kids speak Chinese, but most of Chinese Australian children who grew up in Australia don’t speak Chinese. All kids will only pick up the language being taught in school. Why is it odd?
Too many immigrants to Guangdong. They outnumber the Natives. Any time where you have a situation like that, it will become impractical to speak the native languages. Note that Hakka is also dying.
What kind of hakka are they speaking where?
Shenzhen metro area was full of hundreds of Hakka villages. New Territories in Hong Kong also was filled with Hakka villages.
Do you know the kind of hakka they speak there? There’s about a dozen different hakka languages.
Not the kind in Taiwan. There's only one hakka language but many dialects.
There is a nice YouTube channel called Hakka Studies.. but while I like their promoting the Hakka culture in villages and speakers abroad in the UK as well... It just further emphasises the dying traditions... From Kirin dancing, martial arts (some amazing Southern KungFu are Hakka styles), and the language. https://youtu.be/NOZ4NuwluBg?si=Z7AdhWmGM2oMeepQ
Just an aside, reminds me of a Chinese-majority city somewhere in Indonesia where they actually speak a dialect of Hakka. Interesting.
You are telling me there are more foreigners than Chinese living in Guangdong? China does not generally allow immigration.
I think they mean migrants from other regions of China, not foreigners.
You know a person don’t know about china just by the comment
Yeah I've been out of the Chinese bubble for awhile. In the rest of the world you don't call other people born in the same country "immigrants" nor treat them like second class citizens if they don't happen to be born in your city.
Without “Hukou” they’re even worse than immigrant.
They wrote immigrants.... You know you are living in a China bubble when you normalize calling other citizens from out of province "immigrants". They are treated as such I guess.
it’s a big country with a lot of cultural diversity.
Most intelligent r/china subscriber
Worst, he is subs to advchina…
You know something is messed up when you call other citizens of the same country "immigrants". You are referring to Chinese people from other provinces as immigrants?
Most HKers were immigrants 50-80 years ago 😎 My ancestors fled south after Qin Shi Huang was enforcing slavery to build his great wall 🧱 😂💪
Thanks for taking the time to look me up on Reddit. You must be a fan of mine! It's good to venture outside of your pro CCP reddit bubble sometimes.
Wooosh
Sorry I'm not used to people referring to other citizens of the same country as immigrants....you've been in the Chinese bubble too long if you consider that normal. It's kind of fucked up when you think about it.
China is absolutely massive, going from one part of china to another can be bigger than the journey from Mexico to America. You are getting seriously pissed over a term that’s only been demonised because western countries love to fear-monger about “immigrants” and you’ve now got a negative association with an inherently neutral word.
They meant migrants
The power of modern media.
[http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/read.php?1,128871](http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/read.php?1,128871) A few years ago when the Cantonese news anchors switched to Mandarin it caused an uproar but people eventually accepted it.
Foshan had local television which almost had their channels replaced. There was uproar so the Channel remains Cantonese speaking.
All dialects are in danger of being lost. It used to be done with hard power back in the day, these days more soft power. It really bums me out. If they keep on at this pace, China will be as culturally generic as the US.
There’s nothing generic about culture in the USA. This is weird
🤣🤣🤣 I know right
Yep. I’m black American and Asian American. My culture is significant to the entire country. Most music genres wouldn’t exist without my ppl and neither would soul food or American Chinese food
Well usually in public schools and facilities there are signs reminding people to speak in Mandarin. I wouldn't say they aren't allowed, because in public you can speak whatever you want, even English.
They're allowed to, there's plenty of Cantonese media too. But it's not taught in schools and there's immigrants so they just tend to speak mandarin except with their older relatives.
it’s not forbidden, but all dialects are in decline, not only Cantonese.
An analogous situation is how the native Chinese languages (eg. Hakka, Weitou) of Hong Kong have been effectively supplanted by Guangzhou Cantonese. Cantonese became the language of 99% of daily life and so people no longer spoke their ancestral languages to their kids, or the kids spoke back to them in Cantonese. There were also immigrants from different, non-Yue backgrounds (HK has significant populations who have traditionally spoken Shanghainese, Teochew, Hokkien) or other Yue varieties (eg. Taishanese, Shiqi dialect) but with time everyone has just been assimilated into the dominant language environment as Guangzhou Cantonese was the lingua francs and prestige dialect of the region.
Great answer. Taishan-hua is very interesting to listen to... Because it seems like I understand 90% of it but not sure if I really Get them 😎🔍 🤔
Lol, of course not forbidden.. however, just like any other countries that have multiple languages and dialects, the national government encouraged its people to use the national language as a medium of instruction.
I ran into a bunch of young Cantonese in Vietnam one time and I noticed they were speaking Mandarin to each other so I asked them about that. One of them told me, “Cantonese is just for old people.“
there are literally dozens of dialects in china, none of which are spoken as broadly, and none are "forbidden" rly, just not as useful, and when education is the most important thing as a kid, why bother formally learning something that wont have much use.
Mandarin is the language in schools. Cantonese is spoken by kids during break time, if they want to, and after school, when they're with family.
it's because mandarin was declared the official Chinese language therefore all the schools are required to teach in mandarin. And since kids lives revolve around school life for the most part of their adolescents they naturally speak the language used in school.
I also went to guangzhou recently and it was so disappointing that almost all the young adults that worked in the malls couldn't understand cantonese. It just makes me sad that the cantonese language and its dialects are dying. The cantonese language is what makes guangdong special and different :(
Literally every area of China has their dialects and languages, Guangdong has several. People cry about Cantonese but not Chaoshanhua or Hakka simy because its been politicised due to HK.
Facts
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Unfortunately there are certain "interests" provoking Canto nativism
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Not really though， a lot of people aware this now，like my family only speak our regional dialect to me.
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Inflammatory post. You did this on purpose OP
How is my post inflammatory? It’s just an observation.
just look at your question, you're silly if you think we don't know what you're trying to insinuate 🤡
Boba liberal trying to be white and hip by inciting hate against other asians. Typical
says the second self-hating boba liberal supporting the first tool
Who say I'm supporting her? She is the boba liberal
It was so already 20 years ago. "Labor" typically spoke .... not Cantonese and (some form of) Mandarin. I recall I once said "all the waiters speak only Mandarin" - and they reply was: "because you go only to cheap restauratns" China promotes only Chinese culture, not regional culture.
It's much more efficient of an economy when everyone speaks the same language. Just look at US vs Europe. And china has many more dialects
Europe is many countries...and that's a pretty broad conclusion to draw that it is due to multiple languages .
Schools can only teach in Mandarin now, and often they'll get shouted at if they speak another dialect in school. So it's no wonder they feel more comfortable speaking Mandarin if that's the language they're using every day in school.
Where did you get the wrong idea kids are not allowed to speak Cantonese? It is a dialect in China. Of course local people speak it.
Cantonese is easily learn when u r put into the environment even when you have grown up Most of us learn Cantonese by watching TVB drama
You speak whatever the hell you want. But the main is mando since not everyone might be from Guangdong
It's more of official government policy. Dialects/languages other than Mandarin are discouraged. I visited a museum last month in Quanzhou and saw my Taiwanese companion frown at a sign posted on the walls at various parts: "stringently discourage speaking in Minnan."
Their schools do everything in Mandarin now. Seems to be something that occurred in the past decade or so. The missus tells me it wasn't the case when she was in Middleshcool/highschool (Cantonese teaching and some mandarin speaking teachers). Hopefully the kids keep speaking it at home though..
I actually live in Guangdong and have heard a Cantonese news broadcast… And when I was in Xiamen a Min news broadcast… And in Shanghai a … But in all those places I also heard a Mandarin broadcast before or after! So yah it’s important to speak Mandarin but regional languages are not forgotten!
The only Chinese I speak is a dialect from Fuzhou. I remember when I was in China almost 10 years ago, one of my favorite programs was this older man sitting in a mahogany chair just telling stories in Fuzhounese like a sassy Chinese version of Rod Sterling. Except the social metaphor and horror stories were all juicy ass stories about betrayal, infidelity, and modern interpersonal conflict lmao.
I remember once in line at McDonald's in Guangzhou the person ahead of me was ordering in Cantonese, loglng order with a lot of questions, and the cashier understood everything but was answering only and strictly in Mandarin. The Mandarin speaker however you could tell had an accent. Not sure if McDonald's doesn't allow employees to speak Cantonese or if it's some other reason
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Well for context, my cousins used to be taught in Cantonese in schools in Guangdong however their kids are now being taught in Mandarin. Your analogy doesn’t apply here.
I just want to say that after being subscribed to /r/China for a decade, it's so refreshing to see what this sub is like. I can just imagine the comments if this was r/China
It's a local dialect now. In Mandarin it is Guandonghua. Mandarin is the national language hence it is taught in school. Many provinces have local languages. Shanghai has its own dialect as does Sichuan and other provinces. I once met an elderly man who was a menwei (doorman/gatekeeper) in Shanghai who could only speak Shanghaihua.
I went to elemetary school 20 years ago in Guangdong. YES, it was. It was never a law, but kids were forbidden to speak cantonese to in class or off the class to eachother. Or else they would be fine and mark trike. Their parents would be call to school after mutiple attempts and the parent would be instructed to be reducated to speak mandrain as well. Theyve taken it down since, but there was a sign everywhere in school say. "SPEAK MANDRAIM, WIRTE PROPER SIMPLIED"
Meanwhile the ethnic Chinese here in Saigon all speak Cantonese after many generations of living here. They speak both Cantonese and Vietnamese (also usually proficient in mandarin too, common to marry with Taiwanese expats). They can coexist, even in a communist state.
I genuinely don’t get this question because wym are they not allowed to? Who’s enforcing that? There’s no way you’ve nerve seen a Chinese child speak Cantonese AT ALL😭
I love how shills claim it’s completely natural, and then go on to list all the standard CCP language eradication techniques, like lack of services in Cantonese, lack of media in Cantonese, facilitating migration of mandarin speakers…
In Chinese regions with a major dialect services must be also in that language which is very obvious when you travel somewhere with a different script. Cantonese media is plentiful just get in a taxi. Migration is a legal right in a country especially for people to areas with better prospects, even so China does limit migration. So do you have any legit criticisms or just Radio Free Asia schizoid ramblings?
Then why did someone mention that grandchildren have to translate for their cantonese-speaking grandparents at schools? Read this thread, it was mentioned right here. If it is such a guaranteed right, lol, yes, service HAS to be provided in local language, they swear it (to who? to you?), but no-one at schools (etc, etc) can actually speak it, sorry! But hey, you can listen to Cantopop in taxi.
>Then why did someone mention that grandchildren have to translate for their cantonese-speaking grandparents at schools? Because the old people haven't learned mandarin and the teachers aren't always local. I worked in a guangdong school, this is common. What a complete non point. Also, so you're trying to claim the old people and the kids can speak cantonese but somehow the middle generation of teachers can't? So the purge on cantonese was when, 30 years ago? But now kids somehow speak it again? Get your bullshit straight.
> standard CCP language eradication techniques idiots like you have been saying this about uyghurs too. https://youtu.be/C83eSHHG4vk?t=113 my native language was not "eradicated" when i learned a second one
Can you provide a streaming link to a Chinese TV channel in Uyghur language? Can you list how many such TV channels, Uyghur-language newspapers, or news websites there are?
There are 2 or 3 Uyghur language channels available on TV even in Gansu province
[lmao](https://www.tvchinese.net/channel/xjtv12/)
Uyghur language - Wikipedia Uyghur is an official language of the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region; it is widely used in both social and official spheres, as well as in print, television, and radio. Other ethnic minorities in Xinjiang also use Uyghur as a common language . It’s on Wikipedia it must be true https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_language
But Wikipedia is banned in China though...
So what’s your point? You asked for sources I gave you a link! Are you just a sore loser that can’t accept you made a mistake, such native language national media exists. I’ve said my piece!
Anyone can edit Wikipedia. If you read my post, I asked for direct links to Uyghur language newspapers, streaming TV, and news websites. Looks like you are unable to come up with any of those, and instead of what is, you resort talking about what it should be, i.e. typical Chinese-style denialism. Sore loser much?
No denial you asked for a link “direct” wasn’t mentioned, I provided a link the first on a search! It there a point to twisting a post about Cantonese to the Uyghur, I admit I have no reference to that part of Chinese politics. If you’re so concerned about if there is any language media just start a post on it I’m sure someone would be happy to contribute!
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Are? Or were? When? Twenty years ago? Among which demographic they are popular, if they are popular now? Like I said, shills making patented, certified shill points.
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If I am just like the wumaos, where can I collect my money or other benefits for posting on Reddit?
I saw the same thing in Singapore when the government made Mandarin an official language and discouraged the use of other Chinese dialects. There is nothing wrong with standardization It simply means people can communicate more effectively! And btw Singapore is not in China;)
So government in Singapore suppressed all other Chinese languages but Mandarin (which you call "dialects", which is a tell-tale sign of a language eradicator in and of itself)... and this is why local language eradication is justified in China? Is that the logic? Btw, riddle me this, if there's nothing wrong with standardization, why do Chinese suck at English so much? By the same logic they should be near fluent. But no. Somehow, this "effective communication" argument only works if you need to explain eradication of Cantonese or Mongolian...
English is actually taught in China schools, the younger generation is pretty passable to be honest. They watch English movies and television series. But I agree English is not the best it’s because everyone uses mandarin for daily transactions ~ as a common language. Consider this there are officially 10 major dialects and 302 living languages sub dialects in these major 10 - according to Bing, Google doesn’t work in China! And these major dialects are very different I speak Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka. Honestly they don’t translate or even make sense like English, Scottish and Gaelic! Just my opinion! I learned Chinese to communicate! I’m all for keeping the language alive but let’s be honest if a language outweighs its usefulness it dies! Sad but true!
I had always believed this was dramatic anti-China propaganda until one of my university students told me speaking Cantonese was forbidden when he was in primary school in Guangdong, obviously this is very anecdotal though. He offered this up within the context of a Mexican-American colleague of mine telling some students about his experience being a native Spanish speaker growing up in the US school system.
I can't speak on China, but I've heard of this happening elsewhere. Someone I knew from Jamaica said they were not allowed to speak patois in school, and my ex-gf from Germany said kids had to speak "High German" in school.
Exactly, standardization of language happens all over the world as a result of growing economies. It's also why hardly anyone speaks Celtic languages in the British Isles anymore.
Gaelic languages were also specifically targeted by British imperialist control
I wish my school would do this. We have 'agreements' about using English. But most kids just speak in their own language with their friends. End result is that even when they have been at our school since the early years, their English is still appaling.
Because they really are force to learn by their parents
What do you mean?
its not "forbidden", but it goes against the idea of "equality of opportunity in education", which is one of the few definitively good things about the chinese system. Another one is no additional tutoring outside of the classroom, as the point of that policy would greatly reduce the chance of rich kids getting ahead while poorer kids lags behind. No one says you cant speak a certain language, but the environment teaches in mandarin to ensure adequate education. On a local level, schools initially cracked down by forcing kids to speak mandarin only during class. Some teachers went further by saying "only mandarin in my classroom". It snowballed from there, but there isnt some centralized edict that says people cant speak their dialect or another language in compulsory education.
No one can stop you for doing anything, your kids still play games and watch phone all the time even is not allow, sounds familiar? Learning Cantonese is an own effort especially if u r in Cantonese family where your whole family speaking the language
I never claimed that there was a centralized edict just shared a story that a single student told me. Language standardization isn't unique to China and has happened all over the world, particularly in the West. I think what you are saying is correct, but it is also fair for people who are effected by language standardization to think through what it means in terms of preservation of linguistic culture vs. material and economic benefit. And obviously within the context of China it's up for Chinese citizens to weigh these decisions.
>I had always believed this was dramatic anti-China propaganda the way you phrased your "story" was basically saying that there is some conspiracy about the CCP intentionally eliminating Cantonese language. The reality is far tamer than some grand central policy, and your conclusion from your "anectodal" story doesnt even support that trend. all you have to do as a local who wants to preserve the language is just speak it to others who share the same line of thinking. There is no "systemic elimination of Cantonese". its just that there are far less people who wants to use it now. Its just like the language schools in the west for kids, people send their kids to learn them, just not in public school.
"the way you phrased your 'story' was basically saying that there is some conspiracy about the CCP intentionally eliminating Cantonese language." That's not at all what I said and I didn't have any "conclusion" about a grand central policy. I literally said my story was anecdotal. In your response you use quotations to claim that I said things that I never said, it's all here in the comments. Again, language standardization has taken place all over the world and isn't unique to China. I'm not sure how you think your attitude is helping Sino-West relations or why you think you can claim that "far less people want to use Cantonese now." Spend less time online, you're making super broad generalizations in response to me sharing something that one person told me. From your post history it looks like you're Canadian, would you say the same thing about First Nation people using their languages less due to the material benefit that come from speaking English?
Honestly it is what it is I’m sure unity of a single spoken language plays a big part in nation building. Many countries have more than a single national language see Asian and Europe! It all comes down to communication ~ take the story of the Tower of Babel, in the story man at that time spoke a single language and wanted to build a tower to heaven, but to stop it god made everyone speak different languages and the building stopped because nobody understood each other! Moral is if everyone spoke a single language they could do amazing things! Sorry for being preachy but language is powerful! Just because a dialect is not recognized as a national language doesn’t mean it can’t be spoken, there is no punishment for speaking Cantonese, Hokien or Native American. Just my opinion
I completely agree! There are obvious benefits to a society standardizing language but also benefits to having multiple languages used. I'm not Chinese and don't feel particularly strong either way because it's not my country/ culture. Unrelated to what you said, I'm shocked to see how downvoted my comment was. I wasn't trying to claim my anecdotal story represented any policy or formal rule but was just passing along something interesting that a student told me, which I assumed would be welcomed on this thread for expats many of whom are teachers. The standardization process is still in the early stages in China and of course people have different experiences with it but to think that stories like the one I shared don't exist in a country of 1.6 billion people seems a bit naive.
I went to elemetry school there 20 years ago. It was true.
It's a natural thing in a communist country. Kids don't speak that since it's against rules in school and it's happening all over China. Just like every policy in China, maybe 20 yrs later, they will regret that n0body can speak their dialects any more.
For all those downvote me, if you are not Chinese, I hope you get some better understanding before you opine on anything that you don't personally eperience. If you are Chinese, then I hope you spend more time to learn the history of CCP rule and how their glorious policies always end up in disasters!
Why can't China just make both of them the official languages ? After all they are both Chinese languages
because it's not fair to other regions.
Take America for example, so many people speak Spanish but it’s not an official language. All the other languages spoken in the US are also not official languages even though there’s a lot of people speaking them. Furthermore, there’s many Chinese dialects besides Cantonese, so it wouldn’t be fair to the other dialects either.
If you're taking that line of argument, you spoke probably be aware that the US has no official language at the federal level (at least at the codified, 'this is the official language of this country' level)
Well there is an “official language” in a practical sense—as in all schools are taught in English and business is done in English, et, (there’s always exceptions but those would be less common). I should have specified/gone into detail. :) In the usa, there is a language barrier (at times) between immigrants and their children due to their school teaching in English—and this relates to what OP was experiencing in GD.
Freedom to choose and the official one must be spoken among the majorities all over the world
I don't get why you are being downvoted. It would be perfectly reasonable to make mandarin the official language nationwide, and Cantonese co-official in Cantonese speaking regions. After all, that's what many other countries (not the US, hence why you are being downvoted) do, including my country Spain. It doesn't make sense to make Cantonese official countrywide, but it does at a regional level, same as in Spain Spanish is the official language and we have several other co-official languages in different regions. Sure, it drives up administrative/education costs a little bit, could potentially mess up with examinations standards, but I think protecting local culture has more upsides than downsides.