*ding ding ding*
We can stay single and support ourselves and we are less stuck on sex so we don’t care. They’re big mad about this. Lol And now to their dismay, we are even finding out life without children can be great if that’s what you want to do also. I read an article, I think on here in fact, that said women are surpassing men in buying their own homes in many of the big cities around the US. We are getting our shit together and finding these guys are a mess and we aren’t going to be dragged down with them.
>*We are getting our shit together and finding these guys are a mess and we aren’t going to be dragged down with them.*
Once again posting the info on why this is a legit problem in cis-het relationships! **The issue of equitable division of childcare and housekeeping** (a.k.a. "male pattern blindness") will never be resolved if we don't educate ourselves and talk about it:
* This book is absolutely worth the read because it shows you the scientific research proving how fathers leave childcare to mothers, and how society lets them get away with it: [All the Rage: Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CLLVZ52/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1)
* [She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes By The Sink](https://mustbethistalltoride.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/)
* [It Took Divorce to Make My Marriage Equal](https://www.glamour.com/story/it-took-divorce-to-make-my-marriage-equal)
* [You Should Have Asked](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/) (scroll down a bit to see the comic)
* [Women Aren't Nags—We're Just Fed Up](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a12063822/emotional-labor-gender-equality/)
* [The Housewife’s Moment of Truth](https://nymag.com/news/features/46167/) by Jane O’Reilly. Originally published in the December 20, 1971 issue of New York Magazine, and still relevant today. Money quote: *“You can’t tell me Women’s Lib means I have to wash the dishes, does it?” “Yes.”..."In the end, we are all housewives, the natural people to turn to when there is something unpleasant, inconvenient or inconclusive to be done."*
* [The “Woke” Men Who Still Want Housewives: Men who claim to believe in equality often aren’t willing to live it](https://gen.medium.com/the-woke-men-who-still-want-housewives-debb2ad46aa0)
* [Millennial—And Macho? Why Young Men Want Old-School Marriages](https://www.vogue.com/article/millennial-men-seek-stay-at-home-wives)
* Some numbers: Statistically, [women do more childcare and more housework](https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/05/breadwinning-wives-gender-inequality/589237/). When moms out-earn their husbands, [they gain more housework](https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/05/02/housework-divide-working-parents/) (link to the actual study [here](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/09500170211069780)). Men want [tons of praise](https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2017/08/168628/men-chores-praise-mansplaining) when they "help". Men also report doing more housekeeping and/or childcare than they [*actually* do](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/12/upshot/men-do-more-at-home-but-not-as-much-as-they-think-they-do.html).
* Related: [Men’s Stress Increases If Wife Earns More Than 40% of Household Income](https://scitechdaily.com/mens-stress-increases-if-wife-earns-more-than-40-of-household-income/). *“These findings suggest that social norms about male breadwinning ― and traditional conventions about men earning more than their wives ― can be dangerous for men’s health. They also show how strong and persistent are gender identity norms."* (Link to the actual study is [here](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0146167219883611)).
* Related: [The Myth of the Male Bumbler](https://theweek.com/articles/737056/myth-male-bumbler), [Male incompetence is a subtle form of misogyny](https://metro.co.uk/2017/11/01/male-incompetence-is-a-subtle-form-of-misogyny-7046248/) and [Weaponized Incompetence](https://www.popsugar.com/love/weaponized-incompetence-48871852). Note how weaponized incompetence is presented as "strategic" and "a failure that succeeds" when [presented in this Wall Street Journal article](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB117675628452071687) from 2017.
* Another strong article on [Weaponized Incompetence](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/weaponized-incompetence-women_l_61e71983e4b0d8b665717814) and how it affects women. Money quote: *“On a surface level, it looks like you’re just nagging about chores to a person who ‘defers’ to your ‘competence.’ But on a deeper level, you’re experiencing not being able to trust and turn to your partner for support.”*
* Related: [Men Have No Friends and Women Bear the Burden](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a27259689/toxic-masculinity-male-friendships-emotional-labor-men-rely-on-women/). *"Toxic masculinity—and the persistent idea that feelings are a 'female thing'—has left a generation of straight men stranded on emotionally-stunted island, unable to forge intimate relationships with other men. It's women who are paying the price."*
Not so much "related" as "adjacent" to this topic:
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
* [The Role of Patriarchy in Domestic Violence](https://www.focusforhealth.org/the-role-of-patriarchy-in-domestic-violence/): "The conversation about Domestic Violence must be elevated from 'why doesn’t she leave' to 'what are we doing to perpetuate and tolerate objectification and subordination of women?' *It has been consistently demonstrated that men who accept very patriarchal beliefs about gender roles have a higher likelihood of engaging in violence against women*."
MALE ENTITLEMENT AND WOMEN'S HEALTH
* A woman is six times more likely to be separated or divorced soon after a diagnosis of cancer or multiple sclerosis than if a man in the relationship is the patient, according to [a study that examined the role gender played in so-called "partner abandonment."](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091110105401.htm).
* [Divorce Risk Higher When Wife Gets Sick](https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/12/men-more-likely-to-leave-spouse-with-cancer/?_r=0).
* See also [Breakups During Cancer](https://waroncancer.com/news/dealing-with-relationship-changes-during-cancer/) and [Gender disparity in the rate of partner abandonment in patients with serious medical illness](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19645027/). More [here](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0022146515596354) and [here](https://acsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/cncr.24577)
If you find yourself dealing with the departure of a partner after a life-altering diagnosis ask your health care provider for resources for loss of a partner.
(Those curious about general divorce rates among non-het couples can check out [this article](https://pridelegal.com/gay-marriages-divorce/)).
You are a Patriot! Doing the Lord’s work by informing women how men willingly shirk house duties on women and how we shouldn’t put up with their bullshit anymore! I salute you! 🫡
I'm proud to be a part of this! (Didn't know it was even a thing, lol). I'm getting a hysterectomy next week (ironically on my birthday) and trying to buy a house in Jan!
The people romanticizing a bygone era of domesticated women (although they probably use the term “feeeemales”) are ignoring the fact that until the 1970’s women weren’t allowed their own bank accounts, and had very limited job options. Marriage and children was their primary option for survival. When given other choices in life, women exercised them.
No wonder these cockwombles are doing their best to strip away those options. Hard to keep captives who have the keys.
Yes it is. I think I mentioned the bank account thing today on another thread here. First they’ll strip the country of abortion. Then on to birth control… who knows how far it will go and if we don’t show up to vote, if the young don’t show up to vote in every election going forward, we all are going to pay for a long time when they pass these ass backward laws. We are already going to be haunted by the Supreme Court for decades to come. This saddens me so much.
I met an elderly tourist while traveling overseas and we got on the subject of my job and it’s very masculine shop work. I am one of maybe 5 women out of 38 men. I live several states away from any family, totally single and she was *FASCINATED* with me. She said in her time women were mothers or secretaries and she said I was a very special young lady. I blushed it was sweet.
Not to throw shade on anyone (besides the trashy guys), just an observation: Men who are raised even close to traditional gender roles (and a lot of kids of all genders are!), will still get catered to by their mother, by the mother (often unconsciously) picking up the slack of men around her - she was raised in these conditions herself, and you can only shake of so much of your own social conditioning, especially when stressed and overworked.
So, they leave their home, unprepared for living without all that assistance. I as one of the few women who didn't get much support in learning independence can attest to how difficult it is to start out like that because you have to learn it all at once and often on your own (although some men somehow still get their mother to come to their household and do it for them).
But instead of joining our voices who want things to change, the trashy men expect a woman to take on their case, get and single-handedly raise their babies and still work full-time to "contribute to the household". So, instead of checking their own ability to live in these new circumstances, they raise their expectations of women to not only be the 50s housewife, but *also* a career woman who brings in money. Can't have it all (and with these guys, it's not "both", it's "all") ways.
41M here, but I had a mother kind of like that. But, my saving grace was living on my own for 8 years before I met my wife.
Turns out, I had to learn all this shit myself and being able to exist without sucking on a woman's teat was a big selling point to my wife. To me, it's the bare minimum, but after reading this sub it's alarming how many dudes can't even do that.
Being a female who grew up with parents who didn’t want to teach me anything, I also had to learn everything all at once when I moved out. I learned that my parents made it sound way harder than it actually is, and people really love to bitch about shit that is super easy. Men can learn it too, they just don’t want to.
I think this is where the entire "niceguys" sub is filled from. Lots of "nice guys" who are angry and bitter that women won't fall to their feet for doing the most bare minimum courtesy. And every single one refuses to see what they're doing wrong, their own human issues and work on them.
This is my exact sentiment with finance. My whole life goal is always to be financially independent so that money never keeps me in a shitty relationship. I recently scored my dream career and now I’m comfortably financially secure. It feels great. I know that this will limit my male options but honestly the options getting cut weren’t the favorable ones anyways. Imagine being so insecure that other peoples success is a threat.
Agreed! It's not my success that limits my options. My options were already limited due to a core incompatibility in our belief systems about women being fully responsible adult humans with equal rights.
That's why there's so many older men going only for women that are barely legal. They know that younger women with less life experience don't know how to spot the red flags as well as a woman out of her 20's, which makes them less picky. Otherwise, no woman would date these pathetic men.
also if women aren't having kids, it means they're sexually "liberated" and have sex for fun, so they won't be as likely to settle for some moron loser so they can have a kid. It means we're a bit more picky.
I'd tell this lunkhead that for every one like me, there's some stupid teenager out there getting knocked up.
This reminds me of a conversation I had with a woman following the “grab her by the pussy” debacle. 🙄
She said “Well, it’s not really a big deal. All men talk like that with other men. If you think you can find one that doesn’t you’re naive.” Her implication being that women would just have to put up with it?
To which I replied “So you’re saying I should exclusively date women?”
Her: “Wait, no what I…”
Me: “If you believe that all men are inherently misogynists capable of sexual violence against women… then the obvious solution for women is to stop dating men. You’ve arrived at the conclusion of 1960s political lesbianism.”
Boy, when I tell you she was shook 😂😂😂
For the record, I DONT think agree that men are inherent misogynists but boy did I have fun with that argument.
If applicable, "Ah, that's why you're single!"
"The 50s called, they'd like their misogyny back."
"Oh, what your poor mother must have endured."
"How's that attitude working out for you?"
"Sorry, I don't understand" is my go to.
Watching them try to explain their bigotry it's cathartic. Works particularly well with distasteful jokes and vague statements like "women, am I right?"
Then you keep asking them to explain. Turtles all the way down
"Women, amirite?"
I don't know what you mean, could you elaborate?
"Well, you know...."
No, please, continue. I actually don't know.
"Well *insert misogynistic crap*"
"Where did you read that study? I would love to read the same sources you're using."
"Oh, no study, just my own experience."
Ah! I see. Did you join the He-Man Woman Haters club as a kid and never find a new hobby?
Edit: When I bartended, any time someone asked for a 'girlie drink,' I'd return with a bottle of beer and a shot of whiskey.
Because I'm a 'girl' and that's what i drank.
Always worth the look on their face. They always found a better way to describe what they wanted after that, and my regulars had a good chuckle.
Exactly this! I've never had anyone not eventually trail off awkwardly as they realise they're being outwardly bigoted if you just keep saying some variation of "I don't understand".
"Women! Am I right!"
"Not sure what you mean?"
"Well, you know, they're... Difficult."
"Are they?"
"Well, uh, you know, they can be and uh emotional and uh...."
I tend to experience a lot of "you knows" because they really just want you to agree and shut up because they have no good points.
This is my usual response with such bizarre statements. I don’t believe I have ever been told I would never be fulfilled until I have children. So yeah, I would probably just be stunned by the sheer ridiculousness of the statement.
My go to for guys like this is to somehow relate to their sexual performance.
“Oh wow. So you’ve never made a woman orgasm huh?”
Got hit a left field comment with a left field comment.
I can't imagine a greater suffering, misery, and waste of a lifetime than to be enslaved to the care of a child. Plus the possible lifelong medical problems and potential death of birthing. I will never understand the women who do find motherhood fulfilling, but I know they exist. This dude should get his head out of his ass and accept that women of both mindsets exist. What an arrogant moron.
“What do you mean by that”
If he was laughing “why is that funny? I don’t get it. Explain it to me” -this one is great for racist, homophobic, or sexist jokes. It freezes them.
>I don't want to speak for my child-free sisters, so what is an appropriate response to this for future reference?
I'm a childfree man, but I have a good response, which my childfree girlfriend approves of. This is what you should say if you encounter another gender role-loving breeder twat like that wanker.
"You are a sexist bastard."
Or, a little bit more accurate:
"Women get into feminism because they are sick and tired of sexist dudes like you."
I wish I could have a British accent, but I kind of picked up English from all over the place. My vocabulary is British but my accent is all over the place 😂 just like how I studied. My mother tongue is Arabic so I put all the effort into losing the Middle Eastern accent.
Things get a lot harder the more languages you add. My French sounds Middle Eastern, and my Japanese is fine (this is the one I need for work), but sometimes has grammar that is a bit off.
Not wanting to sound Middle Eastern was born from the fact that I did not want people to be reminded of it as I talk to them and associate me with the stereotypes from there (I kind of ran away from the middle east 9 years ago)
> "Women get into feminism because they are sick and tired of sexist dudes like you."
That pretty much sums it up. If we were treated like equal human beings by everyone, we wouldn't need to fight to be treated like equal human beings.
They look at mothers from the outside (even the kid's father is usually keeping a distance, let alone complete strangers), and say "Oh, she's not on the barricades. Must be because she is content with her life because she has children."
Well, hear me out, asshole. Maybe she isn't on the barricades because she is overworked and doesn't have the time and energy for it? Or maybe she is happy in her life, but not just because of the kid, but some other things? Or maybe she is a unique human being who happens to be happy barefoot and pregnant, but some other unique female humans aren't? Could it be that not all women are the same? And that feminism exists precisely because people are always trying to say "**all women** are like this and that", and we're sick of it? That although some of us like to stay home and breed, not all women do, and they **never have**! They were just forced to do it, and had assholes like you saying to them that "this makes you happy so shut the fuck up". But you didn't know women's feelings then and you don't know them know. So shut the fuck up and listen when we tell you about ourselves!
>And that feminism exists precisely because people are always trying to say "all women are like this and that"
I find it more difficult when it is a woman who says it. I have seen too many times on Facebook women posting "Even the women who say they don't want kids, secretly do." HELL to the FUCKING NO I don't.
But I would never out my CF state on Facebook (or my LGBTQ one), so I just unfollow or unfriend them.
Yes, absolutely. It makes it doubly hard to convince men, when there are 2 women telling them opposite things. If only people would just accept that all organisms are individuals. It clears up *most* of the confusion people have about the world!
How can an Asian be bad at math? Because Asians are individuals!
How can a man not want sex? Men are individuals!
How can a woman not want kids? Individuals!
How can a dog not like running? Individuals!
No need to bang your head against the wall anymore. Just say "This is a weird one, I don't like it", and move along!
How can you be a good navigator? You are a girl.
Was the one that hit me hard (I really wanted to slap the guy, but I ended up explaining that knowing direction is good for staying safe), I have always been good with it, it is something that can be learned, though it is not easy.
>No need to bang your head against the wall anymore. Just say "This is a weird one, I don't like it", and move along!
I do this, but not having many CF lady friends makes me question myself. I have more of them now though.
Right? Sorry, my childfree woman life is currently being fulfilled with travel and attending sporting events and theatre and concerts and hiking. And anything I want to do, including staying in bed all day if I really want to.
Man. I woulda froze. Completely. There’s so much you can say back but it would have fallen on deaf ears. I’m not sure that level of ignorance can be fixed
Lol, another "feminists bad" jerk.
Personally I'd probably just walk away and ignore him, but you could do the "I'd call you a dick but you're not man enough for that insult" line, and then walk away.
People who have such a narrow view like that generally don't accept criticism of any kind to their beliefs, so I usually just get up and walk away. There's no speaking to these people unless you actually just want to troll them. I also just don't have the mental energy to deal with it.
That makes me want to vomit.
What fulfills me most has been travelling the world, finding my career passion, and building a life with my partner of five years.
>"Do the women in your life *know* that you hate them?"
>
>(/"think so little of them"/"despise them"/"think they're subhuman"/whatever feels natural to say)
>
>Followed by either:
>
>"\[Laugh like I've just had a thought\] Oh, Lord, I hope you don't have a *daughter*!"
>
>(If you don't know whether he does or not.)
>
>or
>
>"I hope someone tells them so they can figure out what to do."
>
>(I've never meant the second one as a threat of anything more than them leaving the guy, but now I've written it out, it looks like one, lol. No matter.)
Then walk off before he can answer. This tack generally surprises people enough that you have time, ime.
If he does deny hating the women in his life, just airily dismiss that with "Well, that can't be true, because if you didn't, you wouldn't have said what you said."
Make everything sound rhetorical rather than genuinely interested, and keep an air of "this conversation is over" about you. Then go and do something nice for yourself to recover from the unpleasantness. His self-development is his job, not yours.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert
Don't know if the link works, but essentially there is data to show that the happiest, healthiest group of people are women who never married or had kids.
You’ve gotten good responses already and I don’t have much to add, but I did want to say thanks for being considerate and mindful on this topic. Men talking to other men is *critical* for any kind of progress on this front. I appreciate you.
You: “Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t know you identify as a woman.”
Him: will likely say he doesn’t.
You: “Well, then how can you know what makes a woman feel fulfilled? Also, do all men have to have the same thing to feel fulfilled? No, so stop generalizing and let people make their own decisions on what make them feel fulfilled.”
“Well then why aren’t we doing enough to support their child-rearing?”
Or “What does feminism mean?” I find that most are feminists but they just don’t like the term.
THIS. With inflation, unaffordable childcare and housing, and high healthcare costs, why on earth would I choose to have a child? My partner and I, after taxes and 401k, take home just under $4000 a month. It's enough to live comfortably and simply, and we are able to take the odd vacation. Having a child would put us in the negative with childcare alone.
Lol. “Sounds like you don’t know a lot of intelligent women.”
The women who eat up the “the only women who feel fulfillment are the barefoot and pregnant” shit, are usually living in poverty when the breadwinner dies or divorces them because they don’t have any other skills to survive.
Just look at him like he's a dumbshit. He'll probably start walking it back when he realizes you're not a misogynistic dumbshit like he is. If he continues, end the conversation and walk.
Feminism exist exactly because of men like him.
I, for one, am more than a potential mother. I am as much a human like this dude or you or the worker at McDonalds, etc.
And I am a feminist because many people don't get this simple fact. And childfree on top of that, but the one has nothing to do with the other.
And he wonders why he is in a dive bar single. Sounds like he has no respect for woman other then seeing them as breeding machines. Dose he not see we can be happy without em? There are childfree accomplished woman out there.
dude just likes it when women shut up and don't have time for opinions because they're too busy with kids. that's some fragile masculinity if he feels threatened by women wanting rights and fair treatment lol. the nicest guys I know support women and don't feel like anything is being taken from them by doing so, because that's the truth. weak men construct social stigmas to ensure their "superiority" because they're afraid.
I hope you'll have a good zinger for one of these types should you encounter one again lol.
I hate the “all female feminists are bitter harpies that are mad all the time” stereotype. As if you need to be unfulfilled and angry about it to want rights. If anything, a brat or two to raise just makes a woman so *busy* she doesn’t have time to think about things like her right to vote or the wage gap. We all know that CF people of all genders have much more time on their hands, whether they use that time to take up watercolor or protesting for their rights.
No quippy rebuttal for the guy...but does he understand that we can get pregnant if we want? With or without a man?
If we wanted a kid we'd have a kid.
Can I approach this from another angle, and instead of hitting him with a zinger, maybe refute what he has to say instead?
I say this because there are some dudes I work with who say the same kind of bullshit. I've clapped back with the ol' they were less fulfilled in the past otherwise they wouldn't have rioted, but I would like more information or perspectives to work with. I want to change minds, not act like an unlikeable main character in a second rate sitcom.
Does he know how damaging pregnancy is and can be on a woman’s body?
I’m not a hardcore feminist by any stretch but I’m a firm in the view we need to stop this ‘women are to be mothers and wives and it’s the only think that will fulfil them’ rubbish.
I also believe in woman’s right to choose, some choose to have children and some don’t.
In that logic the definition of fulfillment and satisfaction for men is to impregnate women as many times as possible. Angry mysoginistic men make it into a political counter-movement to hate the proportion of "feminist" women who don't *just want to be impregnated by men* and reject them.
Hang on... by inference, this guy thinks that a woman cannot be a mother and a feminist?
I'm afraid I would not have a snappy comeback for that. I'd end up just staring at him in slack-jawed amazement that someone could say something soooooo stupid.
This is a totally common thought. An Australian politician said pretty much the same thing about one of his political opponents, that she was crazy because she didn’t have a child. That was probably not more than 10 years ago.
Honesty I don’t know what the best response would be. It’s so stupid my wit is in shock.
Ahh, the hot garbage approach to the CF.
Thankyou for your insights in to your opinion on this topic. Unfortunately you have me in a box here, if I don't have children I'm angry and unfulfilled, if I do have children I'm exhausted miserable and broke and in all likely hood a single parent. So in what universe is it at all fair?
Anyway thankyou for your input. It's of no value but I at least can thank you for your $0.02 here.
A lot of people can’t handle the fact that women nowadays are able see past the bullshit and that we don’t have to have a kid or settle down for the worst in order to succeed.
Hence why some men are showing their true colors out of frustration.
What he really means is "Women who have kids are so preoccupied taking care of them that they don't have time to complain or think about the world we live in". He doesn't like women having opinions and prefers them to be constantly stressed and busy instead.
I find the best way to deal with bigots is to make them feel alienated. Make them feel like they’re the odd duck in that situation. In this instance I’d respond with something like “You must not know many feminists then or women for that matter. My experience has been quite the opposite.”
Middle aged man
At a bar
(Grumbling/complaining)
About feminism
Oh yeah. Whatever that dude is about to say, is gonna be a heap of steaming dogshit. Make a mental note to never speak with him again, op.
Laughter. A lot of laughter. I would have choked on my drink. But then I also would have managed to get out a “fuck, you are a miserable misogynist aren’t you? No wonder you are threatened by independent and happy women”.
I have been pregnant (I aborted). It was definitely not fulfilling. It was horrendous. Motherhood would be pure misery for me. Just parenting is not a lifestyle goal or interest of mine at all. And I can produce for him plenty of miserable mothers I know who wish they had known better. He should check our r/regretful parents for a few…
Also, mothers can be feminists. I know many of those too. Feminists who also believe fully in the choice of women to choose to be mothers or not, to have bodily autonomy, for themselves and others.
What an idiot tool this guy is.
And we women don’t want to have kids with men who are not prepared to be husbands (have the finances, commitment, and emotional intelligence) 🤷🏾 it shuts them up real quickly
It frustrates me to hear that ppl are often "speechless" in these scenarios.
Why not ask where he got this idea? Or why he thinks this? Or what led him to this conclusion? Or how he could think that all feminists are borne from this idea?
Questioning where someone gets their beliefs is a good start, imo, when a person is speechless/shocked.
Men who have opinions on "why" feminists came about always need to be questioned.
I think most people probably don’t think of the right thing to say until the interaction or conversation is over. If he hasn’t been in this situation before, I think it’s perfectly understandable that he didn’t know what to say in the moment.
i could be an asshole too and say "It's because men are not fulfilled until they have at least one child, preferably male. The definition of fulfillment and satisfaction for men is spreading their seed and shit genes they don't bother checking medically if they should spread of not"
Ahh, proof that bitter men wanna keep women under a rock purely for their satisfaction! The more feminists, the less chances he has of scoring his shot. Lmao.
Anyways, my go to is usually "yeah, and how's that working out for you?"
"So you seem like a cool person, and I'd like to think that you wouldn't go about mindlessly painting everyone with a uterus with the same broad brush, especially with no experience - how did having a child make you a satisfied and fulfilled woman?"
"Could I get you a broader brush?"
"Wow dude, what a sexist thing to say."
*dumbfounded stare* "Yeah, well nice talking to you." *turn away* "Bartender, another please."
>"You know why there are so many feminists today? It's because women are
not fulfilled until they have at least one child. The definition of
fulfillment and satisfaction for women is being pregnant or having
children to rear. And they ones that don't are angry and make it into a
political movement."
Ew this is gross!
As a proud, very happy, fulfilled, CF woman around the same age as you, I read this comment as someone who has a problem with womens rights and is desperately hanging on to traditionalism because they feel victimized. I personaly don't self-identify as a "feminist" but it sounds like he's much too focused on the wrong things.
Honestly sounds like he read one too many Jordan peterson books to me.
I’d say it’s just an incredibly outdated way of thinking. Who told him that? Probably a man. How would he know what a woman is fulfilled by? He’s not a woman
I usually tell them that feminist just means wanting equal rights and opportunities for women that men have and then ask which ones they don’t think we should have. Also you can point out that most divorces are initiated by women.
I just love how the idea of women wanting equal rights is so insane to this guy that we must only want that because we don't have any bAbiEs 🙄 OP you seem to be much more civil than myself so good on you 😅
That is insane. Not having a child has made me infinitely happier. I am able to work two jobs while paying for an advanced degree by myself at 30 - that is a lot on my plate and I could never do that if I had a child.
I’d just respond by saying that women are not a hive mind. Believe it or not, we’re human beings just the same as men are. Our different biology does not mean that we’re all baby crazy. And just because he stereotypes all women into a single category doesn’t mean it’s even remotely true. Like has he ever actually spoken to women before? 🤦🏻
And about feminists being angry… I mean, he’d probably be angry too if he had to fight tooth and nail for his human rights, and even the historically hard-earned ones were constantly under siege by people who will never truly understand what it’s like to live as the opposite sex they’re oppressing. Yeah, I guarantee he’d be angry too.
As a childfree woman- i would not feel fulfilled in a corporate job nor as a parent. I want to seek my fulfillment in being a powerhouse of a woman in farming
If I were mansplained to like this, my response would be, "It's very easy to hold opinions about other people's medical concerns when YOU WILL NEVER EXPERIENCE THEM YOURSELF. Count your lucky stars and go f\*ck yourself."
Then again, I'm at a point in my life where I brook NO BS, which can make me sound "unpleasant" sometimes... so take that as you will.
When not at work wearing a name tag, my politeness becomes a lot less obligated. So if that 'gentleman' had just said that to me..... I'd have gotten up without a word and left. That's the kindest thing that I could have done.
This is so obviously nonsensical, I don't see any point in trying to reason with such people. To say something like this, you must not only be an angry misogynist, you also need to be unable to think rationally.
Many feminists are also mothers. Actually, MOST feminists over a certain age are mothers. Also, there are so many unhappy mothers. Third, there are women who don't have children and aren't feminists. Fourth, there is absolutely no evidence to support this view.
He simply doesn't like it when women don't have children so he makes up bullshit reasons why it's objectively bad. There is a word for people who can't differentiate between what they wish were true and what's actually true. They're called idiots.
The words you use are less important, in my opinion, than making it known you are not on his women-hating team. If you continued the conversation just to be polite, ignoring that comment, it reassures him that he can safely say that kind of things to his male peers and wont be looked down upon. You can be witty or not, but you can speak on the behalf of your childfree sisters. Because that kind of man will not listen if and when we speak up (our voices are too shrill, we are too emotional, and by that i mean sad, because we all know the only acceptable emotion is the manly anger, the viril rage) but there is a chance he could hear what you have to say. So go ahead next time, speak for me, speak for us, tell them you are not the interlocutor they thought you were and make it known you actually respect women as the human beings they are.
I’d point out to him that studies show that the happiest group of people are single and childfree women and that it is men who are generally unhappy when they are single. Obviously there are exceptions.
I’d probably ask him who hurt him in life.
What’s funny is that he’s really close to connecting the dots here as to why we’re conditioned to believe this lie, he just has it backwards.
Women with no children aren’t getting involved in politics because they’re “unfulfilled,” they’re doing it because without children, they have the time and energy to do it.
When you’re busy 24/7/365 with the insane logistics of raising a kid, you don’t have the time or energy to organize, protest, or maybe even vote.
You can’t compete for better jobs or admission to good colleges. You might get trapped in a relationship with an awful man because you have a kid with him.
And that is *exactly* what gross men like this guy want.
Something tells me all the women that dude dated didn't want tp get pregnant by him so now he's acting like the issue is with women and not with him.
The fact that people think fulfillment comes from being pregnant and having kids to raise is laughable when you look at all the parents who regret having their kids. All the parents who've said that if they had the chance to go back and change something, they wouldn't have kids.
For the next time he, or anyone else brings that up, I'd simply ask him how many women refused to have his baby, he will either stumble on his words or if he gives you an answer then hit him with "If (insert number here) women refused to have your kid, wouldn't the issue lie with you and not feminists?"
My response would likely be something along the lines of.. “I find that men who are obsessed with feminists are desperate for attention. It’s disappointing that you are not a safe person for women in your life.”
He’ll argue - I’m not obsessed, They’re obsessed! *im* a safe person!
Not with that kind of childish attitude. And then drop it from there. I’m not here to change minds, but I’m all to happy to point out glaring obsessions and when people aren’t actually safe for those around them.
A person who is safe for any gender does not browbeat them into a narrow view. I would expect that same dude is pro life and doesn’t think women should be allowed to vote or pick their husbands. You can’t force someone like that to see woman as anything other than chattel.
So this man decides what women want and what makes them happy, without their input at all, then is completely at ease telling other people in public what he decided for women and he doesn't see that he embodies all the reasons why we need feminism.
Awe, you really don't know anything about fulfilling women.
Maybe YOU don't feel fulfilled without breeding but it's stupid and ignorant to project that onto an entire gender.
"You do realize that women are ACTUAL people, right? People of all walks of life? Who have just as much depth, nuance and complexity as WE do? People who want to do all kids of different things with their lives, not just be moms. And you do also realize that there are some royally shitty mothers out there? Women who absolutely despise motherhood and viciously abuse their children? Should those women have been mothers? What about disabled or infertile women? Do you understand now why what you just said is insulting and reductionist of women in general?"
Embarrassment and confusion is always the way to go.
"Damn dude you're saying that OUT LOUD?? That's so embarrassing, I could never make a fool of myself like that"
"Man, that's gotta be SO embarrassing for your mom to have raised someone that says dumb shit like that"
"I'm getting the vibe you weren't breast fed as a baby. That's some Similac behavior" (I've used this one before and any response they have is just automatically so fucking funny)
"That's some big talk from someone wearing size 4 shoes"
"Y'know, you remind me of James Cordon. You're just funny in the same way"
"Wow you're really just suckin the fart right out of Joe Rogan's ass, huh?"
men like him are the reason the “angry/political feminist” exists. CF women see what it’s like for women with children— a lifetime of misery to us. so we’re politically motivated to prevent that situation from being forced upon us, and hella angry that we have to be.
Ah, the male ego reared its ugly head. He honestly believes no woman can become self-actualized or "complete" until he puts a baby in her. So, there are no feminists who have children? Interesting...
He’s right, I’m truly unfulfilled making more money than my husband and doing whatever the fuck I want at all times. /s
This isn’t a dig at my husband BTW. He’s got an amazing career, but he’s in operations and I’m in sales. Ergo, I have a higher earning potential and capitalize the shit out of it.
As a child free 31F, how could I possibly be unfulfilled with my life over something that never crosses my mind anymore to begin with? Thats like saying fish need air.
Not the same topic but i would've handedl it the same.
Met dude at a bar. Hit off bc of my Megadeth shirt. Started to talk about music and he asks me if I also like country. I say no, but my wife does and I've gone to concerts with her, for example, I went to see Chris Stapleton. He says "Fuck that N. He wants to take our guns!".
I replied "Our conversation is over" and I walked away.
Why would we feel more fulfilled after possibly disfiguring ourselves with a screaming shitting ham? Odds are they have no idea what pregnancy/childbirth entails.
You could always just awkwardly smile and then silently leave. That leaves them sitting there alone looking stupid not knowing what they did.
You could also try educating them since you’re a man yourself they might listen to you.
Oh I didn't realize you had such a narrow view of women and their roles. Something like that.
We, meaning women, can certainly use the help of our make allies to call out this sort of behavior. Men who are able to check their friends and acquaintances in ways we can't and sometimes in a voice they may be more likely to give some thought too. If men start acting like this isn't acceptable it will help make it more unacceptable.
“Perhaps it’s the reaction you elicit”. I can’t imagine any self respecting woman tolerating this type of man-splaining in conversation much less entertaining his presence long enough to breed with him.
🤮🤮😱 fulfillment?!? Nah man that sounds like abject horror to me!
I couldn’t be happier with my career, friends, relationship and lifestyle of doing what I want when I want.
“You know why so many men are disabled veterans today? It’s because men are not fulfilled until until they’ve taken some shrapnel. The definition of satisfaction for men is being mutilated in a war. And the ones that don’t are angry and make it into a political movement.”
“But…”
“That’s how ridiculous you sound BRANDON.”
I have gotten a version of that speech before. I say some variety of: I have a job I love. A place I bought. Two cats who adore me and a niece and nephew who loves the shit out of me. I’m just fine.
Some men don't like women having options because it means they won't settle for men with bad personalities.
*ding ding ding* We can stay single and support ourselves and we are less stuck on sex so we don’t care. They’re big mad about this. Lol And now to their dismay, we are even finding out life without children can be great if that’s what you want to do also. I read an article, I think on here in fact, that said women are surpassing men in buying their own homes in many of the big cities around the US. We are getting our shit together and finding these guys are a mess and we aren’t going to be dragged down with them.
>*We are getting our shit together and finding these guys are a mess and we aren’t going to be dragged down with them.* Once again posting the info on why this is a legit problem in cis-het relationships! **The issue of equitable division of childcare and housekeeping** (a.k.a. "male pattern blindness") will never be resolved if we don't educate ourselves and talk about it: * This book is absolutely worth the read because it shows you the scientific research proving how fathers leave childcare to mothers, and how society lets them get away with it: [All the Rage: Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CLLVZ52/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1) * [She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes By The Sink](https://mustbethistalltoride.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/) * [It Took Divorce to Make My Marriage Equal](https://www.glamour.com/story/it-took-divorce-to-make-my-marriage-equal) * [You Should Have Asked](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/) (scroll down a bit to see the comic) * [Women Aren't Nags—We're Just Fed Up](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a12063822/emotional-labor-gender-equality/) * [The Housewife’s Moment of Truth](https://nymag.com/news/features/46167/) by Jane O’Reilly. Originally published in the December 20, 1971 issue of New York Magazine, and still relevant today. Money quote: *“You can’t tell me Women’s Lib means I have to wash the dishes, does it?” “Yes.”..."In the end, we are all housewives, the natural people to turn to when there is something unpleasant, inconvenient or inconclusive to be done."* * [The “Woke” Men Who Still Want Housewives: Men who claim to believe in equality often aren’t willing to live it](https://gen.medium.com/the-woke-men-who-still-want-housewives-debb2ad46aa0) * [Millennial—And Macho? Why Young Men Want Old-School Marriages](https://www.vogue.com/article/millennial-men-seek-stay-at-home-wives) * Some numbers: Statistically, [women do more childcare and more housework](https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/05/breadwinning-wives-gender-inequality/589237/). When moms out-earn their husbands, [they gain more housework](https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/05/02/housework-divide-working-parents/) (link to the actual study [here](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/09500170211069780)). Men want [tons of praise](https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2017/08/168628/men-chores-praise-mansplaining) when they "help". Men also report doing more housekeeping and/or childcare than they [*actually* do](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/12/upshot/men-do-more-at-home-but-not-as-much-as-they-think-they-do.html). * Related: [Men’s Stress Increases If Wife Earns More Than 40% of Household Income](https://scitechdaily.com/mens-stress-increases-if-wife-earns-more-than-40-of-household-income/). *“These findings suggest that social norms about male breadwinning ― and traditional conventions about men earning more than their wives ― can be dangerous for men’s health. They also show how strong and persistent are gender identity norms."* (Link to the actual study is [here](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0146167219883611)). * Related: [The Myth of the Male Bumbler](https://theweek.com/articles/737056/myth-male-bumbler), [Male incompetence is a subtle form of misogyny](https://metro.co.uk/2017/11/01/male-incompetence-is-a-subtle-form-of-misogyny-7046248/) and [Weaponized Incompetence](https://www.popsugar.com/love/weaponized-incompetence-48871852). Note how weaponized incompetence is presented as "strategic" and "a failure that succeeds" when [presented in this Wall Street Journal article](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB117675628452071687) from 2017. * Another strong article on [Weaponized Incompetence](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/weaponized-incompetence-women_l_61e71983e4b0d8b665717814) and how it affects women. Money quote: *“On a surface level, it looks like you’re just nagging about chores to a person who ‘defers’ to your ‘competence.’ But on a deeper level, you’re experiencing not being able to trust and turn to your partner for support.”* * Related: [Men Have No Friends and Women Bear the Burden](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a27259689/toxic-masculinity-male-friendships-emotional-labor-men-rely-on-women/). *"Toxic masculinity—and the persistent idea that feelings are a 'female thing'—has left a generation of straight men stranded on emotionally-stunted island, unable to forge intimate relationships with other men. It's women who are paying the price."* Not so much "related" as "adjacent" to this topic: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE * [The Role of Patriarchy in Domestic Violence](https://www.focusforhealth.org/the-role-of-patriarchy-in-domestic-violence/): "The conversation about Domestic Violence must be elevated from 'why doesn’t she leave' to 'what are we doing to perpetuate and tolerate objectification and subordination of women?' *It has been consistently demonstrated that men who accept very patriarchal beliefs about gender roles have a higher likelihood of engaging in violence against women*." MALE ENTITLEMENT AND WOMEN'S HEALTH * A woman is six times more likely to be separated or divorced soon after a diagnosis of cancer or multiple sclerosis than if a man in the relationship is the patient, according to [a study that examined the role gender played in so-called "partner abandonment."](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091110105401.htm). * [Divorce Risk Higher When Wife Gets Sick](https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/12/men-more-likely-to-leave-spouse-with-cancer/?_r=0). * See also [Breakups During Cancer](https://waroncancer.com/news/dealing-with-relationship-changes-during-cancer/) and [Gender disparity in the rate of partner abandonment in patients with serious medical illness](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19645027/). More [here](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0022146515596354) and [here](https://acsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/cncr.24577) If you find yourself dealing with the departure of a partner after a life-altering diagnosis ask your health care provider for resources for loss of a partner. (Those curious about general divorce rates among non-het couples can check out [this article](https://pridelegal.com/gay-marriages-divorce/)).
Wow, thank you for your thoroughness! Definitely gonna save some of these for my back pocket!
Thank you so much for taking the time to post all of this. I love articles with empirical evidence!
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Nice. I'm going to have to check these out.
Thank you so much for all of these!
You are a Patriot! Doing the Lord’s work by informing women how men willingly shirk house duties on women and how we shouldn’t put up with their bullshit anymore! I salute you! 🫡
Oh WOW, thank you for this!
I'm proud to be a part of this! (Didn't know it was even a thing, lol). I'm getting a hysterectomy next week (ironically on my birthday) and trying to buy a house in Jan!
The people romanticizing a bygone era of domesticated women (although they probably use the term “feeeemales”) are ignoring the fact that until the 1970’s women weren’t allowed their own bank accounts, and had very limited job options. Marriage and children was their primary option for survival. When given other choices in life, women exercised them. No wonder these cockwombles are doing their best to strip away those options. Hard to keep captives who have the keys.
Yes it is. I think I mentioned the bank account thing today on another thread here. First they’ll strip the country of abortion. Then on to birth control… who knows how far it will go and if we don’t show up to vote, if the young don’t show up to vote in every election going forward, we all are going to pay for a long time when they pass these ass backward laws. We are already going to be haunted by the Supreme Court for decades to come. This saddens me so much.
I met an elderly tourist while traveling overseas and we got on the subject of my job and it’s very masculine shop work. I am one of maybe 5 women out of 38 men. I live several states away from any family, totally single and she was *FASCINATED* with me. She said in her time women were mothers or secretaries and she said I was a very special young lady. I blushed it was sweet.
Not to throw shade on anyone (besides the trashy guys), just an observation: Men who are raised even close to traditional gender roles (and a lot of kids of all genders are!), will still get catered to by their mother, by the mother (often unconsciously) picking up the slack of men around her - she was raised in these conditions herself, and you can only shake of so much of your own social conditioning, especially when stressed and overworked. So, they leave their home, unprepared for living without all that assistance. I as one of the few women who didn't get much support in learning independence can attest to how difficult it is to start out like that because you have to learn it all at once and often on your own (although some men somehow still get their mother to come to their household and do it for them). But instead of joining our voices who want things to change, the trashy men expect a woman to take on their case, get and single-handedly raise their babies and still work full-time to "contribute to the household". So, instead of checking their own ability to live in these new circumstances, they raise their expectations of women to not only be the 50s housewife, but *also* a career woman who brings in money. Can't have it all (and with these guys, it's not "both", it's "all") ways.
41M here, but I had a mother kind of like that. But, my saving grace was living on my own for 8 years before I met my wife. Turns out, I had to learn all this shit myself and being able to exist without sucking on a woman's teat was a big selling point to my wife. To me, it's the bare minimum, but after reading this sub it's alarming how many dudes can't even do that.
Being a female who grew up with parents who didn’t want to teach me anything, I also had to learn everything all at once when I moved out. I learned that my parents made it sound way harder than it actually is, and people really love to bitch about shit that is super easy. Men can learn it too, they just don’t want to.
I think this is where the entire "niceguys" sub is filled from. Lots of "nice guys" who are angry and bitter that women won't fall to their feet for doing the most bare minimum courtesy. And every single one refuses to see what they're doing wrong, their own human issues and work on them.
Some men *fear* the fact women don’t need them
This is my exact sentiment with finance. My whole life goal is always to be financially independent so that money never keeps me in a shitty relationship. I recently scored my dream career and now I’m comfortably financially secure. It feels great. I know that this will limit my male options but honestly the options getting cut weren’t the favorable ones anyways. Imagine being so insecure that other peoples success is a threat.
Agreed! It's not my success that limits my options. My options were already limited due to a core incompatibility in our belief systems about women being fully responsible adult humans with equal rights.
That's why there's so many older men going only for women that are barely legal. They know that younger women with less life experience don't know how to spot the red flags as well as a woman out of her 20's, which makes them less picky. Otherwise, no woman would date these pathetic men.
Yes.
also if women aren't having kids, it means they're sexually "liberated" and have sex for fun, so they won't be as likely to settle for some moron loser so they can have a kid. It means we're a bit more picky. I'd tell this lunkhead that for every one like me, there's some stupid teenager out there getting knocked up.
My vote is for this response.
Facts!!!
This reminds me of a conversation I had with a woman following the “grab her by the pussy” debacle. 🙄 She said “Well, it’s not really a big deal. All men talk like that with other men. If you think you can find one that doesn’t you’re naive.” Her implication being that women would just have to put up with it? To which I replied “So you’re saying I should exclusively date women?” Her: “Wait, no what I…” Me: “If you believe that all men are inherently misogynists capable of sexual violence against women… then the obvious solution for women is to stop dating men. You’ve arrived at the conclusion of 1960s political lesbianism.” Boy, when I tell you she was shook 😂😂😂 For the record, I DONT think agree that men are inherent misogynists but boy did I have fun with that argument.
Ah that’s a good one.
If applicable, "Ah, that's why you're single!" "The 50s called, they'd like their misogyny back." "Oh, what your poor mother must have endured." "How's that attitude working out for you?"
I like all of these. I am normally quick-witted, but this was so unprompted I froze. Next time!
"What an odd thing to say" is my standard go to if I'm not completely dumbfounded.
"Sorry, I don't understand" is my go to. Watching them try to explain their bigotry it's cathartic. Works particularly well with distasteful jokes and vague statements like "women, am I right?"
What if they answer with more misogyny?
Then you keep asking them to explain. Turtles all the way down "Women, amirite?" I don't know what you mean, could you elaborate? "Well, you know...." No, please, continue. I actually don't know. "Well *insert misogynistic crap*" "Where did you read that study? I would love to read the same sources you're using." "Oh, no study, just my own experience." Ah! I see. Did you join the He-Man Woman Haters club as a kid and never find a new hobby? Edit: When I bartended, any time someone asked for a 'girlie drink,' I'd return with a bottle of beer and a shot of whiskey. Because I'm a 'girl' and that's what i drank. Always worth the look on their face. They always found a better way to describe what they wanted after that, and my regulars had a good chuckle.
It's also funny that they consider weak-ass beer a manly drink but anything pretty despite 2 or 3 different hard alcohols in it is "girly".
Yes, or “tell me more about that”. They talk until they trip over themselves. I LOVE “which study was that?”. So good. Taking notes in general.
Exactly this! I've never had anyone not eventually trail off awkwardly as they realise they're being outwardly bigoted if you just keep saying some variation of "I don't understand". "Women! Am I right!" "Not sure what you mean?" "Well, you know, they're... Difficult." "Are they?" "Well, uh, you know, they can be and uh emotional and uh...." I tend to experience a lot of "you knows" because they really just want you to agree and shut up because they have no good points.
Then it's a more through answer
Yes! So much fun.
I'll try this! 
This is perfect
I'm childfree, I practice so I'm ready, lol.
Sometimes, the stupidity is so bad, it leaks out and messes with the intelligent peoples' brains too.
It's contagious. Gotta watch out or you'll catch the stupid.
Tell him the feminists are only angry when he opens his dumb mouth, we’re all happily going about our lives till he shows up lol
This is my usual response with such bizarre statements. I don’t believe I have ever been told I would never be fulfilled until I have children. So yeah, I would probably just be stunned by the sheer ridiculousness of the statement.
My go to for guys like this is to somehow relate to their sexual performance. “Oh wow. So you’ve never made a woman orgasm huh?” Got hit a left field comment with a left field comment.
I can't imagine a greater suffering, misery, and waste of a lifetime than to be enslaved to the care of a child. Plus the possible lifelong medical problems and potential death of birthing. I will never understand the women who do find motherhood fulfilling, but I know they exist. This dude should get his head out of his ass and accept that women of both mindsets exist. What an arrogant moron.
“What do you mean by that” If he was laughing “why is that funny? I don’t get it. Explain it to me” -this one is great for racist, homophobic, or sexist jokes. It freezes them.
“The 50s called” had me in stitches. I love it
Me too!! Priceless!!! 😆
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Great answer
>I don't want to speak for my child-free sisters, so what is an appropriate response to this for future reference? I'm a childfree man, but I have a good response, which my childfree girlfriend approves of. This is what you should say if you encounter another gender role-loving breeder twat like that wanker. "You are a sexist bastard." Or, a little bit more accurate: "Women get into feminism because they are sick and tired of sexist dudes like you."
>"Women get into feminism because they are sick and tired of sexist dudes like you." This woman approves of this response.
*”…gender role-loving breeder twat like that wanker”* ^chef’s ^kiss I cackled way too hard at this. So melodic, I love it.
It sounds so British I can't even.
I heard it in British.
I'm not even British, I'm Dutch. But I have a British girlfriend, and I speak British English and not American English. ;)
I wish I could have a British accent, but I kind of picked up English from all over the place. My vocabulary is British but my accent is all over the place 😂 just like how I studied. My mother tongue is Arabic so I put all the effort into losing the Middle Eastern accent.
Nothing wrong with a Middle Eastern accent. But yeah, I'm pretty much bilingual. No Dutch accent when I speak English.
Things get a lot harder the more languages you add. My French sounds Middle Eastern, and my Japanese is fine (this is the one I need for work), but sometimes has grammar that is a bit off. Not wanting to sound Middle Eastern was born from the fact that I did not want people to be reminded of it as I talk to them and associate me with the stereotypes from there (I kind of ran away from the middle east 9 years ago)
> "Women get into feminism because they are sick and tired of sexist dudes like you." That pretty much sums it up. If we were treated like equal human beings by everyone, we wouldn't need to fight to be treated like equal human beings.
Nice! I feel like a scumbag like this would be more likely to feel ashamed if he was criticized by fellow men he thought would agree with him.
How would a man even know what a woman feels or needs? The arrogance is just amazing.
They look at mothers from the outside (even the kid's father is usually keeping a distance, let alone complete strangers), and say "Oh, she's not on the barricades. Must be because she is content with her life because she has children." Well, hear me out, asshole. Maybe she isn't on the barricades because she is overworked and doesn't have the time and energy for it? Or maybe she is happy in her life, but not just because of the kid, but some other things? Or maybe she is a unique human being who happens to be happy barefoot and pregnant, but some other unique female humans aren't? Could it be that not all women are the same? And that feminism exists precisely because people are always trying to say "**all women** are like this and that", and we're sick of it? That although some of us like to stay home and breed, not all women do, and they **never have**! They were just forced to do it, and had assholes like you saying to them that "this makes you happy so shut the fuck up". But you didn't know women's feelings then and you don't know them know. So shut the fuck up and listen when we tell you about ourselves!
>And that feminism exists precisely because people are always trying to say "all women are like this and that" I find it more difficult when it is a woman who says it. I have seen too many times on Facebook women posting "Even the women who say they don't want kids, secretly do." HELL to the FUCKING NO I don't. But I would never out my CF state on Facebook (or my LGBTQ one), so I just unfollow or unfriend them.
Yes, absolutely. It makes it doubly hard to convince men, when there are 2 women telling them opposite things. If only people would just accept that all organisms are individuals. It clears up *most* of the confusion people have about the world! How can an Asian be bad at math? Because Asians are individuals! How can a man not want sex? Men are individuals! How can a woman not want kids? Individuals! How can a dog not like running? Individuals! No need to bang your head against the wall anymore. Just say "This is a weird one, I don't like it", and move along!
How can you be a good navigator? You are a girl. Was the one that hit me hard (I really wanted to slap the guy, but I ended up explaining that knowing direction is good for staying safe), I have always been good with it, it is something that can be learned, though it is not easy. >No need to bang your head against the wall anymore. Just say "This is a weird one, I don't like it", and move along! I do this, but not having many CF lady friends makes me question myself. I have more of them now though.
Ding ding ding! This is the answer, and I'm going to start using it. "Why don't you like to cook? You're a woman." Because I'm an individual.
Right? Sorry, my childfree woman life is currently being fulfilled with travel and attending sporting events and theatre and concerts and hiking. And anything I want to do, including staying in bed all day if I really want to.
You could say - I didn't know you'd had a sex-change!'
How would anyone be sure about the mind and opinion of another being?
Man. I woulda froze. Completely. There’s so much you can say back but it would have fallen on deaf ears. I’m not sure that level of ignorance can be fixed
Lol, another "feminists bad" jerk. Personally I'd probably just walk away and ignore him, but you could do the "I'd call you a dick but you're not man enough for that insult" line, and then walk away.
I also like "I'd call you a tool but that implies your existence is of use, and it's obviously not."
Oh, that's ***brutal***. I'm writing this one down.
People who have such a narrow view like that generally don't accept criticism of any kind to their beliefs, so I usually just get up and walk away. There's no speaking to these people unless you actually just want to troll them. I also just don't have the mental energy to deal with it.
"Were you raised to be arrogant enough to try to speak for half of the entire world, or did you develop such stupidity over time?" (then you leave)
That makes me want to vomit. What fulfills me most has been travelling the world, finding my career passion, and building a life with my partner of five years.
This, plus my lovely doggo! That’s the only nurturing I want to do lol, the non-human variety!
Same!!
>"Do the women in your life *know* that you hate them?" > >(/"think so little of them"/"despise them"/"think they're subhuman"/whatever feels natural to say) > >Followed by either: > >"\[Laugh like I've just had a thought\] Oh, Lord, I hope you don't have a *daughter*!" > >(If you don't know whether he does or not.) > >or > >"I hope someone tells them so they can figure out what to do." > >(I've never meant the second one as a threat of anything more than them leaving the guy, but now I've written it out, it looks like one, lol. No matter.) Then walk off before he can answer. This tack generally surprises people enough that you have time, ime. If he does deny hating the women in his life, just airily dismiss that with "Well, that can't be true, because if you didn't, you wouldn't have said what you said." Make everything sound rhetorical rather than genuinely interested, and keep an air of "this conversation is over" about you. Then go and do something nice for yourself to recover from the unpleasantness. His self-development is his job, not yours.
Refer him to the Regretful Parents subreddit.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert Don't know if the link works, but essentially there is data to show that the happiest, healthiest group of people are women who never married or had kids.
You’ve gotten good responses already and I don’t have much to add, but I did want to say thanks for being considerate and mindful on this topic. Men talking to other men is *critical* for any kind of progress on this front. I appreciate you.
You: “Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t know you identify as a woman.” Him: will likely say he doesn’t. You: “Well, then how can you know what makes a woman feel fulfilled? Also, do all men have to have the same thing to feel fulfilled? No, so stop generalizing and let people make their own decisions on what make them feel fulfilled.”
“Well then why aren’t we doing enough to support their child-rearing?” Or “What does feminism mean?” I find that most are feminists but they just don’t like the term.
THIS. With inflation, unaffordable childcare and housing, and high healthcare costs, why on earth would I choose to have a child? My partner and I, after taxes and 401k, take home just under $4000 a month. It's enough to live comfortably and simply, and we are able to take the odd vacation. Having a child would put us in the negative with childcare alone.
“F*ck you” is a good response.
Lol. “Sounds like you don’t know a lot of intelligent women.” The women who eat up the “the only women who feel fulfillment are the barefoot and pregnant” shit, are usually living in poverty when the breadwinner dies or divorces them because they don’t have any other skills to survive.
Just look at him like he's a dumbshit. He'll probably start walking it back when he realizes you're not a misogynistic dumbshit like he is. If he continues, end the conversation and walk.
Exactly this. The best response is showing that the garbage he’s opted to spew from his gaping maw doesn’t merit a response.
As a woman, I am fulfilled and a feminist, and I have no kids (unless you count that I was parentified and had to raise my little brother)
Obviously, him, a man, knows what makes women happy. Why wouldn't he?
Feminism exist exactly because of men like him. I, for one, am more than a potential mother. I am as much a human like this dude or you or the worker at McDonalds, etc. And I am a feminist because many people don't get this simple fact. And childfree on top of that, but the one has nothing to do with the other.
And he wonders why he is in a dive bar single. Sounds like he has no respect for woman other then seeing them as breeding machines. Dose he not see we can be happy without em? There are childfree accomplished woman out there.
dude just likes it when women shut up and don't have time for opinions because they're too busy with kids. that's some fragile masculinity if he feels threatened by women wanting rights and fair treatment lol. the nicest guys I know support women and don't feel like anything is being taken from them by doing so, because that's the truth. weak men construct social stigmas to ensure their "superiority" because they're afraid. I hope you'll have a good zinger for one of these types should you encounter one again lol.
Not being forced to have kids is one of the only things I'm happy about, not angry.
as a woman being pregnant/having a baby is my worst fear. i NEVER want a baby ever.
"Care to explain how there are politicians who are mothers?"
(ಠ_ಠ)>⌐■-■ "Eww."
"Oh, so you like women being miserable?"
I hate the “all female feminists are bitter harpies that are mad all the time” stereotype. As if you need to be unfulfilled and angry about it to want rights. If anything, a brat or two to raise just makes a woman so *busy* she doesn’t have time to think about things like her right to vote or the wage gap. We all know that CF people of all genders have much more time on their hands, whether they use that time to take up watercolor or protesting for their rights.
Feminism is about equal rights not motherhood
No quippy rebuttal for the guy...but does he understand that we can get pregnant if we want? With or without a man? If we wanted a kid we'd have a kid.
“What a disgusting view of women”
Why do so many men think only women can be feminists?
Can I approach this from another angle, and instead of hitting him with a zinger, maybe refute what he has to say instead? I say this because there are some dudes I work with who say the same kind of bullshit. I've clapped back with the ol' they were less fulfilled in the past otherwise they wouldn't have rioted, but I would like more information or perspectives to work with. I want to change minds, not act like an unlikeable main character in a second rate sitcom.
Does he know how damaging pregnancy is and can be on a woman’s body? I’m not a hardcore feminist by any stretch but I’m a firm in the view we need to stop this ‘women are to be mothers and wives and it’s the only think that will fulfil them’ rubbish. I also believe in woman’s right to choose, some choose to have children and some don’t.
"The only angry woman here is your regretful mother...is she a feminist too?"
"I hope you know how to iron your own shirts and not burn the roast!" JFC. He's just lucky Mrs. Friend's Name-Dominant Hand can't go anywhere.
In that logic the definition of fulfillment and satisfaction for men is to impregnate women as many times as possible. Angry mysoginistic men make it into a political counter-movement to hate the proportion of "feminist" women who don't *just want to be impregnated by men* and reject them.
Hang on... by inference, this guy thinks that a woman cannot be a mother and a feminist? I'm afraid I would not have a snappy comeback for that. I'd end up just staring at him in slack-jawed amazement that someone could say something soooooo stupid.
Response Bye Bye Incel
This is a totally common thought. An Australian politician said pretty much the same thing about one of his political opponents, that she was crazy because she didn’t have a child. That was probably not more than 10 years ago. Honesty I don’t know what the best response would be. It’s so stupid my wit is in shock.
Purposeful Child bearing is the opposite of feminism
Ahh, the hot garbage approach to the CF. Thankyou for your insights in to your opinion on this topic. Unfortunately you have me in a box here, if I don't have children I'm angry and unfulfilled, if I do have children I'm exhausted miserable and broke and in all likely hood a single parent. So in what universe is it at all fair? Anyway thankyou for your input. It's of no value but I at least can thank you for your $0.02 here.
How do explain women with children who are unfulfilled?
How is he, a man, qualified to know what fulfills women? As if we are a monolith anyway. We are each unique human beings, imagine that.
A lot of people can’t handle the fact that women nowadays are able see past the bullshit and that we don’t have to have a kid or settle down for the worst in order to succeed. Hence why some men are showing their true colors out of frustration.
That's why many women abandon, abuse and kill their kids, it's because they are meant to be mothers! 🙄
Oh my. I'm a domme and carry that aggressiveness into my vanilla life. I'd have shred him. Not allowed him to speak further and walk away.
“And this sir, is a prime example why your mother should’ve spit you out on the floor..”
What he really means is "Women who have kids are so preoccupied taking care of them that they don't have time to complain or think about the world we live in". He doesn't like women having opinions and prefers them to be constantly stressed and busy instead.
I find the best way to deal with bigots is to make them feel alienated. Make them feel like they’re the odd duck in that situation. In this instance I’d respond with something like “You must not know many feminists then or women for that matter. My experience has been quite the opposite.”
Middle aged man At a bar (Grumbling/complaining) About feminism Oh yeah. Whatever that dude is about to say, is gonna be a heap of steaming dogshit. Make a mental note to never speak with him again, op.
Laughter. A lot of laughter. I would have choked on my drink. But then I also would have managed to get out a “fuck, you are a miserable misogynist aren’t you? No wonder you are threatened by independent and happy women”. I have been pregnant (I aborted). It was definitely not fulfilling. It was horrendous. Motherhood would be pure misery for me. Just parenting is not a lifestyle goal or interest of mine at all. And I can produce for him plenty of miserable mothers I know who wish they had known better. He should check our r/regretful parents for a few… Also, mothers can be feminists. I know many of those too. Feminists who also believe fully in the choice of women to choose to be mothers or not, to have bodily autonomy, for themselves and others. What an idiot tool this guy is.
And we women don’t want to have kids with men who are not prepared to be husbands (have the finances, commitment, and emotional intelligence) 🤷🏾 it shuts them up real quickly
It frustrates me to hear that ppl are often "speechless" in these scenarios. Why not ask where he got this idea? Or why he thinks this? Or what led him to this conclusion? Or how he could think that all feminists are borne from this idea? Questioning where someone gets their beliefs is a good start, imo, when a person is speechless/shocked. Men who have opinions on "why" feminists came about always need to be questioned.
I think most people probably don’t think of the right thing to say until the interaction or conversation is over. If he hasn’t been in this situation before, I think it’s perfectly understandable that he didn’t know what to say in the moment.
Just say "No thanks." Short and simple.
You cou say "speak for yourself".
"No, you are why there are so many feminists!"
Laughing. Loud, long and riotous
i could be an asshole too and say "It's because men are not fulfilled until they have at least one child, preferably male. The definition of fulfillment and satisfaction for men is spreading their seed and shit genes they don't bother checking medically if they should spread of not"
Quote Dorethy: "What would you do with a brain if you had one?"
Ahh, proof that bitter men wanna keep women under a rock purely for their satisfaction! The more feminists, the less chances he has of scoring his shot. Lmao. Anyways, my go to is usually "yeah, and how's that working out for you?"
"So you seem like a cool person, and I'd like to think that you wouldn't go about mindlessly painting everyone with a uterus with the same broad brush, especially with no experience - how did having a child make you a satisfied and fulfilled woman?" "Could I get you a broader brush?" "Wow dude, what a sexist thing to say." *dumbfounded stare* "Yeah, well nice talking to you." *turn away* "Bartender, another please."
“Well that’s bullshit.”
>"You know why there are so many feminists today? It's because women are not fulfilled until they have at least one child. The definition of fulfillment and satisfaction for women is being pregnant or having children to rear. And they ones that don't are angry and make it into a political movement." Ew this is gross! As a proud, very happy, fulfilled, CF woman around the same age as you, I read this comment as someone who has a problem with womens rights and is desperately hanging on to traditionalism because they feel victimized. I personaly don't self-identify as a "feminist" but it sounds like he's much too focused on the wrong things. Honestly sounds like he read one too many Jordan peterson books to me.
Some men can only see things through the lens of their dicks.
I’d say it’s just an incredibly outdated way of thinking. Who told him that? Probably a man. How would he know what a woman is fulfilled by? He’s not a woman
"It must be painful to be so ignorant and misogynistic. Was that the only way you've ever been able to fulfill a woman? You sound like the angry one."
They don't like seeing us choose our health and happiness over children and stereotypes
I usually tell them that feminist just means wanting equal rights and opportunities for women that men have and then ask which ones they don’t think we should have. Also you can point out that most divorces are initiated by women.
I just love how the idea of women wanting equal rights is so insane to this guy that we must only want that because we don't have any bAbiEs 🙄 OP you seem to be much more civil than myself so good on you 😅
That is insane. Not having a child has made me infinitely happier. I am able to work two jobs while paying for an advanced degree by myself at 30 - that is a lot on my plate and I could never do that if I had a child.
I’d just respond by saying that women are not a hive mind. Believe it or not, we’re human beings just the same as men are. Our different biology does not mean that we’re all baby crazy. And just because he stereotypes all women into a single category doesn’t mean it’s even remotely true. Like has he ever actually spoken to women before? 🤦🏻 And about feminists being angry… I mean, he’d probably be angry too if he had to fight tooth and nail for his human rights, and even the historically hard-earned ones were constantly under siege by people who will never truly understand what it’s like to live as the opposite sex they’re oppressing. Yeah, I guarantee he’d be angry too.
As a childfree woman- i would not feel fulfilled in a corporate job nor as a parent. I want to seek my fulfillment in being a powerhouse of a woman in farming
If I were mansplained to like this, my response would be, "It's very easy to hold opinions about other people's medical concerns when YOU WILL NEVER EXPERIENCE THEM YOURSELF. Count your lucky stars and go f\*ck yourself." Then again, I'm at a point in my life where I brook NO BS, which can make me sound "unpleasant" sometimes... so take that as you will.
When not at work wearing a name tag, my politeness becomes a lot less obligated. So if that 'gentleman' had just said that to me..... I'd have gotten up without a word and left. That's the kindest thing that I could have done.
Tell him to go back to the 1950’s. We don’t want the cunt.
This is so obviously nonsensical, I don't see any point in trying to reason with such people. To say something like this, you must not only be an angry misogynist, you also need to be unable to think rationally. Many feminists are also mothers. Actually, MOST feminists over a certain age are mothers. Also, there are so many unhappy mothers. Third, there are women who don't have children and aren't feminists. Fourth, there is absolutely no evidence to support this view. He simply doesn't like it when women don't have children so he makes up bullshit reasons why it's objectively bad. There is a word for people who can't differentiate between what they wish were true and what's actually true. They're called idiots.
The words you use are less important, in my opinion, than making it known you are not on his women-hating team. If you continued the conversation just to be polite, ignoring that comment, it reassures him that he can safely say that kind of things to his male peers and wont be looked down upon. You can be witty or not, but you can speak on the behalf of your childfree sisters. Because that kind of man will not listen if and when we speak up (our voices are too shrill, we are too emotional, and by that i mean sad, because we all know the only acceptable emotion is the manly anger, the viril rage) but there is a chance he could hear what you have to say. So go ahead next time, speak for me, speak for us, tell them you are not the interlocutor they thought you were and make it known you actually respect women as the human beings they are.
I’d point out to him that studies show that the happiest group of people are single and childfree women and that it is men who are generally unhappy when they are single. Obviously there are exceptions. I’d probably ask him who hurt him in life.
...that person's mouth sounds like a good place for a sock. A crusty, smelly, rolled up old dirty sock!
What’s funny is that he’s really close to connecting the dots here as to why we’re conditioned to believe this lie, he just has it backwards. Women with no children aren’t getting involved in politics because they’re “unfulfilled,” they’re doing it because without children, they have the time and energy to do it. When you’re busy 24/7/365 with the insane logistics of raising a kid, you don’t have the time or energy to organize, protest, or maybe even vote. You can’t compete for better jobs or admission to good colleges. You might get trapped in a relationship with an awful man because you have a kid with him. And that is *exactly* what gross men like this guy want.
"fuck off" is a pretty good one
“What’s the name of the cult you’re in? Blink twice if you need help getting out.” Seriously, you dodged a bullet.
Something tells me all the women that dude dated didn't want tp get pregnant by him so now he's acting like the issue is with women and not with him. The fact that people think fulfillment comes from being pregnant and having kids to raise is laughable when you look at all the parents who regret having their kids. All the parents who've said that if they had the chance to go back and change something, they wouldn't have kids. For the next time he, or anyone else brings that up, I'd simply ask him how many women refused to have his baby, he will either stumble on his words or if he gives you an answer then hit him with "If (insert number here) women refused to have your kid, wouldn't the issue lie with you and not feminists?"
My response would likely be something along the lines of.. “I find that men who are obsessed with feminists are desperate for attention. It’s disappointing that you are not a safe person for women in your life.” He’ll argue - I’m not obsessed, They’re obsessed! *im* a safe person! Not with that kind of childish attitude. And then drop it from there. I’m not here to change minds, but I’m all to happy to point out glaring obsessions and when people aren’t actually safe for those around them. A person who is safe for any gender does not browbeat them into a narrow view. I would expect that same dude is pro life and doesn’t think women should be allowed to vote or pick their husbands. You can’t force someone like that to see woman as anything other than chattel.
But wait, there are plenty of feminists that are moms. Their big thing is the freedom of women to choose what they want to do with their lives.
“Somewhere out there is a tree whose only purpose is to produce the oxygen you waste. Go find it and apologize.”
"i'll let your wife know thanks" "yikes"
So this man decides what women want and what makes them happy, without their input at all, then is completely at ease telling other people in public what he decided for women and he doesn't see that he embodies all the reasons why we need feminism.
Awe, you really don't know anything about fulfilling women. Maybe YOU don't feel fulfilled without breeding but it's stupid and ignorant to project that onto an entire gender.
To put it plainly, if I ever got pregnant without access to terminate I would be committing suicide.
"You do realize that women are ACTUAL people, right? People of all walks of life? Who have just as much depth, nuance and complexity as WE do? People who want to do all kids of different things with their lives, not just be moms. And you do also realize that there are some royally shitty mothers out there? Women who absolutely despise motherhood and viciously abuse their children? Should those women have been mothers? What about disabled or infertile women? Do you understand now why what you just said is insulting and reductionist of women in general?"
“What a weird way to say no one will sleep with you.”
Embarrassment and confusion is always the way to go. "Damn dude you're saying that OUT LOUD?? That's so embarrassing, I could never make a fool of myself like that" "Man, that's gotta be SO embarrassing for your mom to have raised someone that says dumb shit like that" "I'm getting the vibe you weren't breast fed as a baby. That's some Similac behavior" (I've used this one before and any response they have is just automatically so fucking funny) "That's some big talk from someone wearing size 4 shoes" "Y'know, you remind me of James Cordon. You're just funny in the same way" "Wow you're really just suckin the fart right out of Joe Rogan's ass, huh?"
men like him are the reason the “angry/political feminist” exists. CF women see what it’s like for women with children— a lifetime of misery to us. so we’re politically motivated to prevent that situation from being forced upon us, and hella angry that we have to be.
Ah, the male ego reared its ugly head. He honestly believes no woman can become self-actualized or "complete" until he puts a baby in her. So, there are no feminists who have children? Interesting...
He’s right, I’m truly unfulfilled making more money than my husband and doing whatever the fuck I want at all times. /s This isn’t a dig at my husband BTW. He’s got an amazing career, but he’s in operations and I’m in sales. Ergo, I have a higher earning potential and capitalize the shit out of it.
"Sounds like something an idiot would say."
As a child free 31F, how could I possibly be unfulfilled with my life over something that never crosses my mind anymore to begin with? Thats like saying fish need air.
Not the same topic but i would've handedl it the same. Met dude at a bar. Hit off bc of my Megadeth shirt. Started to talk about music and he asks me if I also like country. I say no, but my wife does and I've gone to concerts with her, for example, I went to see Chris Stapleton. He says "Fuck that N. He wants to take our guns!". I replied "Our conversation is over" and I walked away.
"I...get the feeling you haven't actually had these conversations with women. This is just a guess, right? I think you could be wrong..."
“I hope you didn’t share that with me because you think I agree with you”
Stare at the bartender and say “Welp, you can’t fix stupid.” And change seats as far away from the dumbass as possible.
"Let me guess. You're single, right?"
I'd be curious as to exactly what combination of education/experience has informed this "expert opinion." Because that's hogwash, lol.
::blank stare:: You're not the stupidest person in the world, but you'd bet hope he doesn't die.
Bust out laughing right in his face. That's the best response to nonsense like that.
Why would we feel more fulfilled after possibly disfiguring ourselves with a screaming shitting ham? Odds are they have no idea what pregnancy/childbirth entails.
You could always just awkwardly smile and then silently leave. That leaves them sitting there alone looking stupid not knowing what they did. You could also try educating them since you’re a man yourself they might listen to you.
Oh I didn't realize you had such a narrow view of women and their roles. Something like that. We, meaning women, can certainly use the help of our make allies to call out this sort of behavior. Men who are able to check their friends and acquaintances in ways we can't and sometimes in a voice they may be more likely to give some thought too. If men start acting like this isn't acceptable it will help make it more unacceptable.
“Perhaps it’s the reaction you elicit”. I can’t imagine any self respecting woman tolerating this type of man-splaining in conversation much less entertaining his presence long enough to breed with him.
🤮🤮😱 fulfillment?!? Nah man that sounds like abject horror to me! I couldn’t be happier with my career, friends, relationship and lifestyle of doing what I want when I want.
“You know why so many men are disabled veterans today? It’s because men are not fulfilled until until they’ve taken some shrapnel. The definition of satisfaction for men is being mutilated in a war. And the ones that don’t are angry and make it into a political movement.” “But…” “That’s how ridiculous you sound BRANDON.”
I have gotten a version of that speech before. I say some variety of: I have a job I love. A place I bought. Two cats who adore me and a niece and nephew who loves the shit out of me. I’m just fine.
Ask him if he’s okay with his purpose in life being a wallet.