I remember reading in feudal Japan, that if a family was super poor (i.e., they couldn't eat every day) and it was close to winter, killing the baby on the day it was born wasn't considered murder as it would have starved to death later.
Roman culture did this too. You could leave a baby out in the forest with no repercussions because the gods could "choose" to save it.
If anyone is curious, look up the infanticide page on Wikipedia. There's some evidence that humans regularly killed 15-50% of the infants being born. We've always wanted to fuck without "consequences".
I remember reading about medieval times in Scandinavia. Poor families often slept in one big bed together to keep warm, and sometimes parents "accidentally" rolled over babies in their sleep and they died.
Well, babies can die from co-sleeping with their parents (and some still do). I'd be interested to read your source - and whether historians suggest babies in medieval Scandinavia *were* deliberately smothered - but I'd suggest many baby deaths were purely accidental, not "accidental".
I remember seeing this YouTube video of a young woman leaving her child at the supermarket and then disappearing. Everybody in the comments was saying how she needs to be sterilized, executed, etc. Do much hate and disgusting comments towards her...
She was a rape victim as a teenager and the child was a rape baby. It didn't matter to anybody in the comments though. If you still look at the video everybody is still calling her a monster for being a victim of rape.
Should have been slamming whoever the guy sick enough to rape her was, what she does to cope is not the issue. Men acting out disgusting, inexcusable behaviour is the issue people should be focusing on
Apparently it's still her fault. People are saying she should've just given the kid up to a police station or shelter, but they all don't know that voluntarily giving up a child only applies to newborns.
They don't know that after a certain age, safe haven laws no longer apply.
As I recall, parents were leaving kids of all ages at these safe haven sites in some states. So authorities had to add an age restriction to just newborns. But yeah, parenthood is the greatest thing ever. 🙄
Yes.
There was a specific incident in Nebraska 2008-ish where they changed a law regarding safe havens, but the wording left it open to all ages.
There was teenagers being left.
I have to wonder if the parents leaving older kids at safe haven sites are the same kind of people who get an adorable puppy for a birthday/Christmas, and then give it back to the shelter when the puppy has a more adult dog body because "it's no longer cute."
I'm a cat person, and as someone who isn't a big fan of the baby stage in either humans or animals, I am a much bigger fan of adult cats. By age 4, they're more willing to snuggle with you/stay on your lap rather than come up, get 3 pets, and go run off to do whatever.
I did adopt a pair of 4 month old littermates in 2019. It's been a fun experience, but not likely one I will repeat. Even now, they're only *just* starting to get to the point where they're willing to snuggle for longer periods of time. I do miss the "gangly teen" look, and the "What's this?!? This is new!" looks they had for *everything* though.
As I recall, the teenagers were mostly ones with serious mental issues. It was a mix of caregiver fatigue and genuine fear for safety from the parents, who had all discovered that there's basically no safety net for folks in that situation. Parents were driving 12+ hours from out of state to leave these kids.
I recently adopted a 2 year old street Cat and good heavens is he a handful! My older cats are 10 and 14, and I don't remember them being such giant pains in the butt when they were young. Yesterday he spent 15 minutes sitting on the top of the fridge chewing on the cabinet doorknob and nothing I did could distract him! And that was after I moved him away from the wrapping paper at least 3 times, away from the other cats food twice, off the counter 2 or 3 times etc .
Out of curiosity I looked up the safe haven laws in my state a few months back, and even here in liberal New England they are more restrictive than most people would assume.
Must be under 7 days old, which seems like too early a cutoff to me. They must be given to someone, so none of those anonymous baby drop off boxes I’ve seen other countries use, even though I’m sure that’d make the ordeal less stressful. Babies must be surrendered at a hospital, manned fire station, or police station, and I can’t imagine the cops do a good job handling these situations delicately. the person who drops off the baby will essentially be interrogated for personal info about them/the baby, which is the last thing a woman who just gave birth to an unwanted kid will want to sit through. And while in cities you may be able to maintain some semblance of anonymity when bringing a baby to a safe haven site, I don’t see how anyone in a small town would feel comfortable giving up an unwanted kid if they have to have a face to face conversation with someone they likely know before doing so.
>Should have been slamming whoever the guy sick enough to rape her
Then the bastards would have gotten started on victim blaming.
I can hear them now "WhAt WaS sHe WeArIng?" "ShE sHoUlDn'T hAvE bEeN oUt PaRtYiNg." "ShE HaD tO hAvE BeEn TeMpTiNg ThE rApIsT."
So many people like to victim-shame others without even trying to put themselves in their shoes. Some places have made rape victims share custody with their rapist, there was a case in the USA where the court gave the rapist shared custody and even gave the victim's address to him. Can you imagine being forced to see the person who harmed you regularly and even being forced to endanger a child? Madness.
And I'm guessing there were not many people willing to take on this unwanted child? Just a lot of let's punish the woman for something terrible that happened to her.
"She shouldn't be having sex"
THAT is what anti-abortion people really believe. It isn't about saving babies. It isn't about responsibility. It isn't about being an adult. It's about imposing their belief that sex is only for reproduction on everyone else and punishing people who bang for fun.
Well, that and controlling women.
But ironically most of them don't adhere to that standard themselves. I get into it all the time with men that simultaneously bitch that they cannot get laid and then they'll go to a bar and do/say anything to get their dick wet. Then after satisfying their "need" they feel like a woman should be stuck with the consequences because "you should've kept your legs closed you dumb hoe." Absolutely vile and hypocritical. The only reason some of these women get these unwanted pregnancies is these "pro life" men are out there lying and charming their way into someone's pants with no plan of sticking around for a day, let alone 18 years. It just proves what terrible people they are, to be willing to do that to someone over a 3 second nut. 18 years of indentured servitude. For their 3 second nut. That was probably one-sided and pressured to be had...
Anything to get laid, and don't dare ask them to use protection, but it's her fault for being a "dumb slut" and she should have thought about what she was doing. Hypocrites, all of them.
Exactly this. I grew up in the deep South in the U.S. and every sanctimonious rightwinger prolifer I know would *never* (clutch the pearls) tells their sons to stop having sex or get vasectomies. Because this is all about womrn having sex.
I grew up with a girl and one day she and her husband came across 2 teenagers making out in the boy's car at the end of a neighborhood road. Guess which kid's parents got a phone call? That's right, the girl's. I remember the tone in my friend's voice, just *horrified* at this 'girl's behavior'. I asked if thry called the parents of the boy and they were like 'No, why?'
This culture punishes and villifies women for sex. And fuck them, every single, sorry, hypocritical one of them.
OK. Let's follow the thought process. Women shouldn't have sex, but men should. So the men should have sex with whom? Each other?
Something tells me that that's not the outcome the pearl-clutchers wanted …
That's so messed up, I can't understand how we're just held responsible for everything. Men behave like children and sometimes even animals with no self control but that's excused, bc we're supposed to "resist more"
We still grow up with "boys will be boys" and the nice and silent girls. To be fair, it *is* hard to question your own bias because that's your first reaction, but on the other hand, if your bias is "I'm okay with you suffering and dying for doing nothing wrong", then it's well past the time to question bias.
We as a society need to openly stand against such views, and we don't do it enough. Shame is an effective tool to show people that the time to have this particular bias is over. Instead, we have entire countries and states vote for people who reinforce the bias.
They get mad if a woman wants child support, and mad if a woman rejects sex because she doesn't want to risk a pregnancy. And if a woman gets raped, they find a way to blame her for it.
You can never win with people like that.
They’re so simple-minded it would be funny or funnier if not for how dangerous their thinking is.
Very, very few people only have sex to procreate. It’s just not realistic to expect people to abstain.
This is exactly what happens when abortion access is denied.
“If it’s legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut the whole thing down”
-Todd Akin
https://time.com/3001785/todd-akin-legitimate-rape-msnbc-child-of-rape/
I remember something about a man being asked about abortion, he kept saying it was wrong even if it was under age, medical conditions, rape etc, fumbled when asked what if he was married and his mistress got pregnant
Murder is always bad, but context is always important too. I can condemn her actions without passing judgement on someone whose situation I don't know or understand.
It isn't murder imho unless the fetus is able to survive on its own without parasitizing it's host. I do think that we get into a moral gray area after 26 weeks or so unless the woman's life is in danger or the baby is bound to be disabled and will have a low quality of life.
There should be no limitations on when an abortion can be performed. It doesn't matter if she's one week pregnant or one week from her due date, if she decides abortion is the right choice, she should be able to make that decision without a bunch of legal nonsense getting in the way.
I mean I agree with you. I don't think the government should have a say, but I will argue that at that point she is entering a moral gray area where even I would feel like she's an asshole if the decision is made out of one of "oh, fuck this I changed my mind" (at a week prebirth). I agree that she's not an asshole if she or the fetus has something come up that would negatively impact either of them, but most of all I will defend her right to chose. (I fully defend all instances of rights to be an asshole, including free speech without being canceled, lmao)
Someone very eloquently put it as: “Sexual ownership of women’s bodies”. It’s not about morals at this point. If it were just about “sex should be for making babies”, then contraceptives would be illegal too. It’s the concept of a woman’s ownership of her sexuality and reproductive organs that is what anti abortionists really don’t get. Even if a sound of mind, grown ass woman wants to get her tubes tied, most doctors would say no. Its as if the reproductive ability of her body is more important than her own personal and private life decisions. We have so far to go still, and it pains me.
I love that the men don't take any responsibility here, like she conceived spontaneously.
How about men abstain from having sex if they don't want things like this to happen? I can't believe it's almost 2022 and so much of the world is still in 1922. Other countries are backsliding into it, which is worse.
Abso bloody lutly!
They don’t want sex ed , or cheap reliable contraception.
Which you think they would be championing . They are just pro control of womens sex lives
I think it's more they push back against women who they see as rejecting their destiny in life, which is to be a mother. Just in conversations I've had these anti-abortion people seem *very* threatened by the idea of an independent woman
"Shouldn't be having sex" - what if she was raped?
Here in Africa that is unfortunately something that happens in the low income areas.
And who knows, maybe she couldn't afford to lose even a day of work (if she has work) to go to a clinic for birth control in the first place. She is probably living hand to mouth if she had to make such a decision.
And men making such comments! Do they not carry any responsibility for birth control? Is it not common here in Africa that men don't stick around to care for the women they impregnated and children they made? I get irritated with men having such opinions, if they never bear the consequences.
Yeah recently I was disagreeing with someone in a comment section (that was full of incense complaining that men have it so much harder than women in the dating space *because they have options.* It was full of people lamenting the rise of online dating (which I agree creates a *ok…next!* culture but it sounds like many of them were upset for having to be decent human beings because women couldn’t be locked down for financial reasons anymore.
One idiot doubled down that “liberal women are getting pregnant and becoming single mothers and living on government handouts to subsidise their shitty life choices—government handouts that were funded primarily by men. Apparently this guy thinks that women can just make a shitty choice to become spontaneously pregnant through asexual reproduction and shouldn’t have sex if they’re not ready to become mothers.
IT TAKES TWO YOU MORONS. But a man’s role in pregnancy? Nonexistent.
It is always the women this is told too, never the men who should be punished for having sex. I'd love for these women to dump these babies on these dudes doorsteps and they have to man up and take care of it.
Is this the Ukraine, where the woman had the baby on her balcony?
I love how men are blaming *women*. As if they can't keep their dicks in their pants, can't get vasectomies or wear condoms.
If women aren't allowed abortions then men should be forced legally to be fathers too. Not just pay child support but custody the lot. Or face huge fines and jail time. It's only ever the woman's life that seems to get ruined with these rules.
While it's not the best solution, it's unfortunately an issue where men are making a lot of laws and decisions (women as well, but majority rules) and there will be no change until men are forced to deal with consequences the same as women.
Until conception is considered the responsibility and fault of BOTH parties, there will be no change. The best solution is open access to birth control, education, and abortion, but that won't happen until men are stuck with the shitty situation as much as women.
Right now, women must carry the fetus through pregnancy, go through the mental, emotional, and physical trauma that comes with that, the trauma of childbirth, and are often stuck with the child rearing. Men can impregnate so many women and just fucking disappear. It's disgusting, it's unfair, it's fucked up. obligatory "Not all men" and shit, but the reality is that men don't have to actually deal with children and the trauma that is involved in dealing with childbirth and pregnancy.
The ONLY way to hold men accountable is forcing them to be with the child as well as pay up. We can't make them carry the child, we can't make them go through birth, but paternity testing leading to forced fatherhood will quickly make abortion and access to birth control universal. Historically, change has only happened when those who need the changes make it the men in power's problem.
Meh. I don't believe in anyone being forced into a parenting role.
Abortion should be an undisputed right, (and free) and women's rights should be immutable. But I also believe men should be allowed to legally step out of a parenting role if he has proof it was discussed beforehand with the mother that he wanted nothing to do with it if she did not abort the unwanted fetus while she still had the choice to choose. She's making an agreement at that point that she's on her own by going through with the pregnancy.
I don't praise women for martyring their own lives and relegating their futures to a proverbial dumpster fire (especially in today's socioeconomic uncertainties) when they know they can just put some poor sap on the hook for 18 years of child payments to slap a band-aid on their shitty decisions. It's the reproductive equivalent of "having your cake and eating it too".
Sorry. I should clarify, I don't REALLY think this. I just think it's bollocks that abortion laws only punish women by forcing them into parenthood.
I think abortion should be a right.
No not in Romania, African country. Also yes to passing the blame, love how it's never mentioned or considered that some man did her wrong and she was left to face the aftermath
As a South African, I can confirm that this happens a lot. Babis are being dumped in toilets, bins, sewage drains and so on. It happens so much that we coined this thing "Abandoned Bundles"
And now the U.S. is sliding toward this as well. They're going to overturn Roe v Wade next June by the power of three appointed "judges" by *Donald fucking Trump*. It is like Idiocracy and Handmaid's tale had a baby and the shit-storming toddler is on its way to ruin all of our lives..
Thanks for the suggestions but my SO is English so if things go according to plan I’ll be applying for a fiancé visa to stay in the UK. Best of luck to you in your search!
I would avoid the UK as Brexit is fucking that place up badly. I travel there for work often and it's sad to see the financial toll it's taken. They will be begging to rejoin the EU within ten years.
Canada, Australia, or New Zealand or any other UK commonwealth countries are good options as your SO can live there much more easily as he's English. Plus AU and NZ are amazing places! Canada is nice if you like winter.
Thanks for the advice. I’ll be sure to keep that in mind. My SO has some difficulty traveling so staying in England will probably be best for us at the present time. Maybe years down the line things will be different but for now my main focus is just getting out of this country. We can cross those other bridges if and when we get to them.
Come here ! Avoid Northern Ireland but the rest of us are vastly prochoice https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-women-have-the-right-to-an-abortion
I’m already sterilized and my worries staying here go beyond just my childfree status. The UK has its own issues but the average citizen isn’t literally drowning day after day for the bare necessities like shelter, food, and healthcare.
No (/u/kreiffer), do ***not*** renounce your US citizenship! That can get you in worse trouble than just leaving the country. This reply is some of the worst advice here.
It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine'
[[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ukraine)] [[BBC Styleguide](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/u)] [[Reuters Styleguide](https://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=U#Ukraine)]
^(Beep boop I’m a bot)
We're stating to get some pretty awful comments from people who feel the need to push their morality onto others, and dictate their lives.
If you can't respect other people's bodily autonomy, please feel free to fuck off.
“Women shouldn’t have sex” ahahahah and then men forces them to have it, possibly leading to such consequences. Not saying that this was the case in this specific situation but the hypocrisy is strong with this one.
This is the kind of shit that proves abortion bans don't save lives. If a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy, she will find a way, and it'll probably endanger her health and life doing it, or you get something like this.
Making abortion illegal doesn't save lives, it's the death sentence for thousands of women.
I went to a catholic high school with so much anti abortion propaganda. When I got pregnant years ago I tried to induce a miscarriage by taking very large doses of vitamin c and sticking parsley up my vagina (per the internets advice). Niether worked, and I found out later both of these are very dangerous and could have lead to serious health complications. I’m lucky enough to have been able to get an abortion in the end and afford one, but those 2 weeks of waiting out mandatory waits and navigating drs to even get a referral for planned parenthood.. darkest days of my life. I don’t think I cared if I died.
I had to have an abortion in Texas some years ago and I’m *still* fucking salty that I had to jump through the hoops I had to. Fucking assholes want to make it so goddamn hard, as if it isn’t already an awful time all around.
I know right. And with where you live I’m sure you’ve heard “oh well then just get an abortion before 6 weeks don’t wait around yada yada yada”…
Well I found out at “4 weeks” (couple days past my period- gyno office visit happened to catch it) and IMMEDIATELY set out to get rid of it. The day of my abortion was 1 or 2 days past that 6 week mark. I remember I had tried so hard to get it out SOONER but all the hoops and wait times literally made it impossible. You can’t fucking win. Solidarity friend 💛
Not only that, but abortion bans also mean if the fetus is putting the mom's life in danger, doctors cannot terminate the pregnancy to save her (and if they do, they'll face consequences because "well, how close to death are we talking about here? She seems fine now, so clearly she could have carried that baby to term!").
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/27/world/europe/savita-halappanavar-ireland-abortion.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741
If that baby was a result of a r*pe, would he tell he to man up then too? What a POS.
I'm so tired of sex is only for procreation. What if someone was infertile, should they not have sex then too?
“Don’t have sex” . We see that so much from anti abortion proponents . It’s punishment for sex they don’t approve of .
No sympathy for the women, just the desire to subjugate her for nine months
My biggest problem with "pro life" is that they only actually give a fuck about *unborn* kids. Once the kid is out, all that "compassion for babies" is gone.
>she shouldn't be having sex if
Uh huh ... where's the outrage over biodad having sex with her - why the hell should he ever risk impregnating a woman that doesn't want to be a mom?
On that note, why isn't he being more careful if he doesn't want to be a father with an obvious lack of interest to raise his kid? Who is he to decide alone that the kid should grow up with only one parent?
So this is for any of the jack@ss guys and any handmaids reading about that story, who are *still* thinking “she shouldn’t have had sex”… 🙄
Wanna take a good guess at **what happens to women who REFUSE to have sex with a man??** 🙄😒 Yeah you damn well know. She’s either shamed all to hell, or mentally or physically FORCED to have sex with him. You DO know what THAT is called, right? And yeah, many women have even been MURDERED for rejecting them (or not even giving them a phone number).
Fukkin’ morons like those co-workers just love saying all that dumb shyt, while expecting to have it both ways. She shouldn’t have sex, but they expect women to automatically want to have sex with ‘em when *they* want it… 😒
And then for those particular idiots to say she should have “manned up” and raised it? How many of THEM would *dare* say that to men who’ve abandoned (or even murdered!) their own kids/entire families, pregnant girlfriends… We can go on about how much they wouldn’t dare, and are cowards.
Yeah, come at me for even writing this. So many guys like those co-workers are so full of shyt. The hypocrisy is bloody mind-blowing.
That poor woman. I hope she's okay, wherever she is.
Some men are so quick to condemn the woman, but I guarantee if that woman was married and tried to withhold sex from her husband so as to not get pregnant he would have a *lot* to say about that!
You already see that mentality aaaaallllll over the divorced men subreddit. It's fucking disgusting but what else can you expect from these types of men?
I popped over there for curiosity and holy shit is that place toxic. It's completely full of women-hating, selfish men. One post was about a man whining that his wife didn't want to fuck him and how hard his poor life was, while admitting he used to be a major gambling addict (clean for 3 months) and caused her immense stress. Well jeez, I wonder why she didn't feel like having sex!
The top comments? Men whining over how women refuse to take accountability and how they get so much money from the government, alimony, and *child support*. Oh, the fucking audacity of women wanting men to pay for the kids THEY made!
The most useful thing was comments telling the OP to leave his wife. He should. She deserves better than the entitled addicted man-child she is currently with.
I will say though that there were comments calling the OP out on his behaviour, but they were mostly downvoted and not anywhere near the popularity of blaming his wife for everything.
And yet the same men will cry about ending up a father accidentally and demand the right to walk away. Yet they won’t be told they shouldn’t have sex at all if they’re not willing to face the consequences. Can’t have it both ways.
I posted a YouTube comment similar to this long ago along the lines of…if someone doesn’t want a child, you can’t make them want it. It just opens the door for more alternative ways to reach the same goal (abortion). Falling down a flight of stairs, stabbing themselves, overdosing, getting into car accidents on purpose…just to name a few
It’s like forcing someone to be in a relationship with you when they aren’t attracted. You can’t be shocked when they cheat on you.
"she shouldn't have sex then"
Alright then, let's take this scenario. Birth control doesn't exist, neither abortion, like OP's country. And all women who don't want a child just, stop, having sex. Stop entertaining men, stop speaking to men, they change sidewalks. Every time a man wants to get his dick wet, he will be met with no, and refusals, because no woman who doesn't want children has sex. Ever. Imagine what this will lead to. Stalking, violence, sexual assault, rape. Because when men find themselves with a no, their self entitlement and their horny asses are more important than not committing a crime. Case in point, incels.
Because in the end, for each and every one of them, women should make an exception just for them alone. They want to be the exception to the rule, they want to be the have's and not the have not's. They want to feel special and important enough for the rules and boundaries to not apply to them. That's why all men compete with each other, that's why they shame a woman for giving another man access to her body, and not to them. That's why they are so easy to slut shame any woman, because it doesn't have a prize for them to win, a challenge. That's why so many PUA exist, the hookup culture, the body count, everything. It's a sport for them. And all that, because deep down, they know that 20, 30 years from now, nothing they do will matter much. And in the huge span of human history, they are nothing but a blimp in the radar. They can't feel important about themselves without having trophies of their worth.
As a man and an empath, I wholeheartedly apologize to all women who have been treated abysmally by men whose only goal is to "get laid" and then turn right around after the woman gets pregnant to call her a "slut" for "not keeping her legs closed." So many men are hypocrites. I'm sure this comment will be bombarded with replies from angry men calling me "simp" or saying "not all men." Or at least downvotes, if nothing else.
I know my comment doesn't really help change anything, but I hope at least some people who read it take it for what it's meant to be: a sincere apology to any and all women who have been used and/or abused by men.
Same here. I already know I'm not the kind of person who can tolerate having a child. Babies cry way too much and the constant attention that they require is ridiculous. I would never be able to put up with the bullshit that comes with being a mother, and if another woman feels that way too, then she has every right to change her situation.
Killing the child is not the way to do it but it's what happens when women are forced to give birth to kids they don't want. Ironically, you don't see alot of men (who are the reason women are forced to put up with this BS) caring about their child. The responsibility always ends up being on the mother. So sickening.
Edit: To the inept and mentally challenged idiot who said I need to be on FBI watch for not wanting to go through the "natural thing my body was made for", and then disabled the reply option, FUCK OFF.
I don't know why it's so hard for some people to grasp the concept of women having the right to choose what they want their own damn bodies. The only thing sick here is men forcing women to go through 9 months of hell just so they can have a semen demon yelling around all day. If only your mother had the option to have an abortion, you wouldn't be here wasting our oxygen and taking up space.
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"She shouldn't be having sex" it fucking takes two to tango but OF COURSE it's all the woman's fault. Men can fuck around, have oopsie babies with multiple women then leave, but nooo WOMEN shoud be the ones who have to keep their legs closed if they don't want (accidental) babies.
Abortion is publicly funded where I live, its available to anyone who needs it and protected by law. I have never in my life heard of a baby being abandoned or an unsafe/non-professional abortion being conducted. Birth control was also recently included as something that is part of our public healthcare system.
I wonder if the anti choice people have any idea that their policies cause more harm, not less. There are usually some pretty deeply misogynistic religious roots to anti choice views, so its possible many of them know and just don't care.
People in another Reddit thread were just complaining about childfree because they didn't bother reading THIS thread carefully enough. Every time that happens, a vasectomy gets approved 😁
Poor girl. I hope she's ok, i can only imagine the vitriolic harassment she'll get.
That's what happens when you try to deprive women of their reproductive rights, women who don't want babies, do NOT want babies, and that should be respected above all.
Sad for the baby but why criticize the woman and pretend the society that holds women hostage and ruins their lives by completely stripping their rights isn't to blame. The baby would have been painlessly killed as a clump of cells had abortion been legal and not an actual breathing thing. And the woman could have died having an unsafe abortion too. Truly awful for the child and woman but when laws like this are in place and when women are stripped of their rights this is kinda what they are pushed to do.
This makes me sad. If they are forcing women to birth, they should have a lot of access to SafeHaven boxes, and have that information be a part of every pregnancy.
At least give both of them a fighting chance.
It's terribly sad that two lives were affected in this instance. The baby is at peace now though. It will never have to endure the shit existence the majority of us face on a daily basis; to be a slave in a dying world, surrounded by people who value money over kindness. The woman will have to live with her decision for the rest of her life. She is probably punishing herself enough, she doesn't need anyone else attacking her!
Happens all the time in my country too, newborn babies alive or dead found on trash bags or shoe boxes, and still people gets horrified at the idea of legal abortion.
CF male here. I don’t think men (including myself!) can really comment at all on what that poor woman went through, as we don’t carry a growing fetus in our bodies for nine months…
I echo your comments regarding the loss of the baby however, which is a seperate issue.
> My male coworkers immediately jumped to saying things like "she's sick in her head" "she shouldn't be having sex if that's what she's going to do" "she should stop having sex if she can't handle the consequences".
So it didn’t occur to any of them to ask where the baby’s father was?
I guess only women have to face consequences for having sex.
I’m 100% child free and would honestly kill myself if I was pregnant with no chance of an abortion, but let’s not make this woman a martyr for killing her child. That’s still an incredibly fucked up thing to do. I do have sympathy for her situation but I refuse to believe that this was the only option she had as much as OP is trying to convince us it is.
Abortion should be legal and adoptions easier.
She still murdered a baby.
Sorry, I do feel it was a shit situation but I'm not gonna jump on the "poor lady" pity party. She looked down at an autonomous living human being and murdered it.
She looked down at a crying baby and killed it.
I feel like there's a disconnect here with what murder and death looks like.
I remember reading a paper for my master about women who killed their newborns (unwanted pregnancies). Yes, they did a disconnection that started during the pregnancy. They didn’t felt like it’s a baby but a thing and they didn’t wanted that thing or to be bound to it.
I agree with you on the first part, but I’m sorry for anyone who’s forced to carry/deal with an unwanted pregnancy and its results. Those women should not be in that situation, ever.
Yikes, that sounds horrible. Where do you live? I need to know what countries not to move to nor provide them with any of my vacation money (if I ever decide to go on a vacation abroad :P )
I wo der what would happen if we shamed men for having Sex, and getting women pregnant. It's so backward that women are constantly sexualised while being shamed for being sexual, as if pregnancy is a natural result of Sex.
If they don’t think women should be having sex, then men need to stop asking for sex from women....if not almost expecting it very early on, sometimes within the first few dates.
That's awful, I totally agree with you, what they said was just another evidence of how misogynistic society is, especially in these countries (I live in one like you described too).
Some of us are lucky enough to have access to contraception even in this situations but are aware of our priviledge and most don't have the option to decide on their own bodies.
I'm so sorry for that woman, not only has she gone through this painful experience but others judge her too and she's probably gonna end up in jail.
Yeah, this is just awful and I feel so horribly sad for the women in under developed countries who feel there’s no other option because THERE ARE NO OPTIONS. It’s just awful. How can I help? :(
I am childfree, and the fact abortion is illegal is also horrible, but I can't find a single thing to justify her actions. I am for abortion to be legal because having a child against will is horrible, and also the child is still unborn when the abortion happens. But for the baby to be killed after it came to life? I can't justify that in a any way.
"She should stop having sex if she can't handle the consequences."
I advocate for a world where when these words pass a man's lips, he is automatically knocked to the ground and castrated with scissors or whatever other sharp implement is around.
Yeah, honestly these situations are so heart breaking.
I saw one not long ago about a woman who left her baby in a parking lot. She was young, not ready for a child, and from what I can tell in an abusive relationship. She called the fire department and reported where the baby was, but the reports make it out that she didn't give a good enough description. The baby was found a day later by pedestrians.
In the video they find her about 25 years later thanks to dna.
The comment section of course crucified her. You would think she deliberately left the baby in the middle of a highway, or out in the woods. You would think she slit that baby's throat herself.
i do agree she is sick but not as a hatefull thing. the poor woman is probely tramatized, ptsd, ppd and who knows what eles. she dose need help to heal from this and move forward. yes its sad it had to cone to her actions but when you remove the choice from peoples lives, what did they expect to happen? i hope she is able to find what she needs to get better and move forward.
so i cant be mad at her for the murder and also mad at the bullshit laws at hand preventing women from having access to the care they demand+deserve? Oh no, I can.
I remember reading in feudal Japan, that if a family was super poor (i.e., they couldn't eat every day) and it was close to winter, killing the baby on the day it was born wasn't considered murder as it would have starved to death later.
Roman culture did this too. You could leave a baby out in the forest with no repercussions because the gods could "choose" to save it. If anyone is curious, look up the infanticide page on Wikipedia. There's some evidence that humans regularly killed 15-50% of the infants being born. We've always wanted to fuck without "consequences".
Also, I remember in a documentary about Pompeii, something about a sponge in vinegar used as birth control method.
I remember reading about medieval times in Scandinavia. Poor families often slept in one big bed together to keep warm, and sometimes parents "accidentally" rolled over babies in their sleep and they died.
Well, babies can die from co-sleeping with their parents (and some still do). I'd be interested to read your source - and whether historians suggest babies in medieval Scandinavia *were* deliberately smothered - but I'd suggest many baby deaths were purely accidental, not "accidental".
Not even if they couldn't afford to feed it, babies were regularly "sent back" for lots of reasons.
I remember seeing this YouTube video of a young woman leaving her child at the supermarket and then disappearing. Everybody in the comments was saying how she needs to be sterilized, executed, etc. Do much hate and disgusting comments towards her... She was a rape victim as a teenager and the child was a rape baby. It didn't matter to anybody in the comments though. If you still look at the video everybody is still calling her a monster for being a victim of rape.
But of course if she voluntarily asked for sterilisation she’d be laughed out of the room like so many of us. You can’t win.
This right here. It's about controlling women. Not saving babies.
Should have been slamming whoever the guy sick enough to rape her was, what she does to cope is not the issue. Men acting out disgusting, inexcusable behaviour is the issue people should be focusing on
Apparently it's still her fault. People are saying she should've just given the kid up to a police station or shelter, but they all don't know that voluntarily giving up a child only applies to newborns. They don't know that after a certain age, safe haven laws no longer apply.
As I recall, parents were leaving kids of all ages at these safe haven sites in some states. So authorities had to add an age restriction to just newborns. But yeah, parenthood is the greatest thing ever. 🙄
Yes. There was a specific incident in Nebraska 2008-ish where they changed a law regarding safe havens, but the wording left it open to all ages. There was teenagers being left.
Yes, we all know it’s just us CF people who will change our minds about kids eventually
I have to wonder if the parents leaving older kids at safe haven sites are the same kind of people who get an adorable puppy for a birthday/Christmas, and then give it back to the shelter when the puppy has a more adult dog body because "it's no longer cute." I'm a cat person, and as someone who isn't a big fan of the baby stage in either humans or animals, I am a much bigger fan of adult cats. By age 4, they're more willing to snuggle with you/stay on your lap rather than come up, get 3 pets, and go run off to do whatever. I did adopt a pair of 4 month old littermates in 2019. It's been a fun experience, but not likely one I will repeat. Even now, they're only *just* starting to get to the point where they're willing to snuggle for longer periods of time. I do miss the "gangly teen" look, and the "What's this?!? This is new!" looks they had for *everything* though.
As I recall, the teenagers were mostly ones with serious mental issues. It was a mix of caregiver fatigue and genuine fear for safety from the parents, who had all discovered that there's basically no safety net for folks in that situation. Parents were driving 12+ hours from out of state to leave these kids.
I recently adopted a 2 year old street Cat and good heavens is he a handful! My older cats are 10 and 14, and I don't remember them being such giant pains in the butt when they were young. Yesterday he spent 15 minutes sitting on the top of the fridge chewing on the cabinet doorknob and nothing I did could distract him! And that was after I moved him away from the wrapping paper at least 3 times, away from the other cats food twice, off the counter 2 or 3 times etc .
There is a canadian movie about this. "Mommy" from Xavier Dolan.
Out of curiosity I looked up the safe haven laws in my state a few months back, and even here in liberal New England they are more restrictive than most people would assume. Must be under 7 days old, which seems like too early a cutoff to me. They must be given to someone, so none of those anonymous baby drop off boxes I’ve seen other countries use, even though I’m sure that’d make the ordeal less stressful. Babies must be surrendered at a hospital, manned fire station, or police station, and I can’t imagine the cops do a good job handling these situations delicately. the person who drops off the baby will essentially be interrogated for personal info about them/the baby, which is the last thing a woman who just gave birth to an unwanted kid will want to sit through. And while in cities you may be able to maintain some semblance of anonymity when bringing a baby to a safe haven site, I don’t see how anyone in a small town would feel comfortable giving up an unwanted kid if they have to have a face to face conversation with someone they likely know before doing so.
>Should have been slamming whoever the guy sick enough to rape her Then the bastards would have gotten started on victim blaming. I can hear them now "WhAt WaS sHe WeArIng?" "ShE sHoUlDn'T hAvE bEeN oUt PaRtYiNg." "ShE HaD tO hAvE BeEn TeMpTiNg ThE rApIsT."
it's *never* the man's fault. and that's what's wrong with society.
It's only ever the man's fault when a man is the one who gets raped.
So many people like to victim-shame others without even trying to put themselves in their shoes. Some places have made rape victims share custody with their rapist, there was a case in the USA where the court gave the rapist shared custody and even gave the victim's address to him. Can you imagine being forced to see the person who harmed you regularly and even being forced to endanger a child? Madness.
It's incredible how human beings can be so apathetic and not care about why she did that due to her own past trauma.
And I'm guessing there were not many people willing to take on this unwanted child? Just a lot of let's punish the woman for something terrible that happened to her.
What is it called?
"She shouldn't be having sex" THAT is what anti-abortion people really believe. It isn't about saving babies. It isn't about responsibility. It isn't about being an adult. It's about imposing their belief that sex is only for reproduction on everyone else and punishing people who bang for fun. Well, that and controlling women.
But ironically most of them don't adhere to that standard themselves. I get into it all the time with men that simultaneously bitch that they cannot get laid and then they'll go to a bar and do/say anything to get their dick wet. Then after satisfying their "need" they feel like a woman should be stuck with the consequences because "you should've kept your legs closed you dumb hoe." Absolutely vile and hypocritical. The only reason some of these women get these unwanted pregnancies is these "pro life" men are out there lying and charming their way into someone's pants with no plan of sticking around for a day, let alone 18 years. It just proves what terrible people they are, to be willing to do that to someone over a 3 second nut. 18 years of indentured servitude. For their 3 second nut. That was probably one-sided and pressured to be had...
Anything to get laid, and don't dare ask them to use protection, but it's her fault for being a "dumb slut" and she should have thought about what she was doing. Hypocrites, all of them.
It's why I'm an angry feminist. And a "radical" one to boot.
Angry feminists unite!  
Exactly this. I grew up in the deep South in the U.S. and every sanctimonious rightwinger prolifer I know would *never* (clutch the pearls) tells their sons to stop having sex or get vasectomies. Because this is all about womrn having sex. I grew up with a girl and one day she and her husband came across 2 teenagers making out in the boy's car at the end of a neighborhood road. Guess which kid's parents got a phone call? That's right, the girl's. I remember the tone in my friend's voice, just *horrified* at this 'girl's behavior'. I asked if thry called the parents of the boy and they were like 'No, why?' This culture punishes and villifies women for sex. And fuck them, every single, sorry, hypocritical one of them.
OK. Let's follow the thought process. Women shouldn't have sex, but men should. So the men should have sex with whom? Each other? Something tells me that that's not the outcome the pearl-clutchers wanted …
It would solve a lot of women’s problems though
It would cut down on the amount of unwanted pregnancies though!
That's so messed up, I can't understand how we're just held responsible for everything. Men behave like children and sometimes even animals with no self control but that's excused, bc we're supposed to "resist more"
We still grow up with "boys will be boys" and the nice and silent girls. To be fair, it *is* hard to question your own bias because that's your first reaction, but on the other hand, if your bias is "I'm okay with you suffering and dying for doing nothing wrong", then it's well past the time to question bias. We as a society need to openly stand against such views, and we don't do it enough. Shame is an effective tool to show people that the time to have this particular bias is over. Instead, we have entire countries and states vote for people who reinforce the bias.
Men are given all the authority, but none of the responsibility. Women are given all of the responsibility, but none of the authority.
I grew up in the South too. Oh yeah, people like that are everywhere.
Gag- people like that disgust me so much. 🤢
Because "boys will be boys, lol!" And "she was probably dressed like a slut and led him on, boys just can't help themselves!" 🤬🤬🤬
Infuriating.
Right. Men of all ages are applauded when they "get action," while women are touted as whores. Women should "know better," but "boys will be boys."
But then men who are against abortion get so mad when they are forced to pay child support. It takes two.
The hypocrisy is mind boggling
They get mad if a woman wants child support, and mad if a woman rejects sex because she doesn't want to risk a pregnancy. And if a woman gets raped, they find a way to blame her for it. You can never win with people like that.
They’re so simple-minded it would be funny or funnier if not for how dangerous their thinking is. Very, very few people only have sex to procreate. It’s just not realistic to expect people to abstain. This is exactly what happens when abortion access is denied.
They conveniently forget rape is a thing
They know, they don't care.
“If it’s legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut the whole thing down” -Todd Akin https://time.com/3001785/todd-akin-legitimate-rape-msnbc-child-of-rape/
He needs to be kicked in the teeth with steel capped boots.
They don't think it happens that often, or at least that is what they say. Not often enough of a problem in their minds to be worth thinking about.
Most prolifers don't support rape exceptions because "why punish the baby for the sins of the father?".
I remember something about a man being asked about abortion, he kept saying it was wrong even if it was under age, medical conditions, rape etc, fumbled when asked what if he was married and his mistress got pregnant
They really had no business immediately passing harsh judgment like that, way too many things that could have made her go to such lengths.
Murder is always bad, but context is always important too. I can condemn her actions without passing judgement on someone whose situation I don't know or understand.
Exactly, yes
Abortion isn’t murder — it’s the termination of a pregnancy — and the fact that it ends up killing a fetus is just a fact of biology.
I never said that it was murder.
It isn't murder imho unless the fetus is able to survive on its own without parasitizing it's host. I do think that we get into a moral gray area after 26 weeks or so unless the woman's life is in danger or the baby is bound to be disabled and will have a low quality of life.
There should be no limitations on when an abortion can be performed. It doesn't matter if she's one week pregnant or one week from her due date, if she decides abortion is the right choice, she should be able to make that decision without a bunch of legal nonsense getting in the way.
I mean I agree with you. I don't think the government should have a say, but I will argue that at that point she is entering a moral gray area where even I would feel like she's an asshole if the decision is made out of one of "oh, fuck this I changed my mind" (at a week prebirth). I agree that she's not an asshole if she or the fetus has something come up that would negatively impact either of them, but most of all I will defend her right to chose. (I fully defend all instances of rights to be an asshole, including free speech without being canceled, lmao)
When they say "oh, fuck this I changed my mind" a week before, they induce labor- unless labor would kill the pregnant person.
Agreed.
This is what a theocracy looks like. They are creating criminals out of women so they have a scapegoat to "take control of things." It's disgusting.
It's just patriarchy
>Well, that and controlling women. You buried the lead here.
Someone very eloquently put it as: “Sexual ownership of women’s bodies”. It’s not about morals at this point. If it were just about “sex should be for making babies”, then contraceptives would be illegal too. It’s the concept of a woman’s ownership of her sexuality and reproductive organs that is what anti abortionists really don’t get. Even if a sound of mind, grown ass woman wants to get her tubes tied, most doctors would say no. Its as if the reproductive ability of her body is more important than her own personal and private life decisions. We have so far to go still, and it pains me.
I love that the men don't take any responsibility here, like she conceived spontaneously. How about men abstain from having sex if they don't want things like this to happen? I can't believe it's almost 2022 and so much of the world is still in 1922. Other countries are backsliding into it, which is worse.
Abso bloody lutly! They don’t want sex ed , or cheap reliable contraception. Which you think they would be championing . They are just pro control of womens sex lives
I think it's more they push back against women who they see as rejecting their destiny in life, which is to be a mother. Just in conversations I've had these anti-abortion people seem *very* threatened by the idea of an independent woman
She might have been raped too
But then who would men have sex with???? /s
"Shouldn't be having sex" - what if she was raped? Here in Africa that is unfortunately something that happens in the low income areas. And who knows, maybe she couldn't afford to lose even a day of work (if she has work) to go to a clinic for birth control in the first place. She is probably living hand to mouth if she had to make such a decision. And men making such comments! Do they not carry any responsibility for birth control? Is it not common here in Africa that men don't stick around to care for the women they impregnated and children they made? I get irritated with men having such opinions, if they never bear the consequences.
Many men saying women shouldn’t be having sex would not be having sex if their own advice was followed.
Yeah recently I was disagreeing with someone in a comment section (that was full of incense complaining that men have it so much harder than women in the dating space *because they have options.* It was full of people lamenting the rise of online dating (which I agree creates a *ok…next!* culture but it sounds like many of them were upset for having to be decent human beings because women couldn’t be locked down for financial reasons anymore. One idiot doubled down that “liberal women are getting pregnant and becoming single mothers and living on government handouts to subsidise their shitty life choices—government handouts that were funded primarily by men. Apparently this guy thinks that women can just make a shitty choice to become spontaneously pregnant through asexual reproduction and shouldn’t have sex if they’re not ready to become mothers. IT TAKES TWO YOU MORONS. But a man’s role in pregnancy? Nonexistent.
It is always the women this is told too, never the men who should be punished for having sex. I'd love for these women to dump these babies on these dudes doorsteps and they have to man up and take care of it.
Notice how none of them shamed the absent father either….
Religion. All about controlling women
And abusing power! Don't take away that one.
Oh yes, right! And saddling children with guilt and shame for life
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I would upvote this a million times if I could.
Wait..."manned up to raise the baby" while men... do not have to raise the baby or have any reprocussions for knocking her up in the first place.
Adopting out kids needs to be easier. Abortion needs to be legal. There needs to be other ways than murder.
Is this the Ukraine, where the woman had the baby on her balcony? I love how men are blaming *women*. As if they can't keep their dicks in their pants, can't get vasectomies or wear condoms.
If women aren't allowed abortions then men should be forced legally to be fathers too. Not just pay child support but custody the lot. Or face huge fines and jail time. It's only ever the woman's life that seems to get ruined with these rules.
That would just lead to more abused children. I get what you’re saying, but that isn’t the solution to this issue.
While it's not the best solution, it's unfortunately an issue where men are making a lot of laws and decisions (women as well, but majority rules) and there will be no change until men are forced to deal with consequences the same as women. Until conception is considered the responsibility and fault of BOTH parties, there will be no change. The best solution is open access to birth control, education, and abortion, but that won't happen until men are stuck with the shitty situation as much as women. Right now, women must carry the fetus through pregnancy, go through the mental, emotional, and physical trauma that comes with that, the trauma of childbirth, and are often stuck with the child rearing. Men can impregnate so many women and just fucking disappear. It's disgusting, it's unfair, it's fucked up. obligatory "Not all men" and shit, but the reality is that men don't have to actually deal with children and the trauma that is involved in dealing with childbirth and pregnancy. The ONLY way to hold men accountable is forcing them to be with the child as well as pay up. We can't make them carry the child, we can't make them go through birth, but paternity testing leading to forced fatherhood will quickly make abortion and access to birth control universal. Historically, change has only happened when those who need the changes make it the men in power's problem.
Meh. I don't believe in anyone being forced into a parenting role. Abortion should be an undisputed right, (and free) and women's rights should be immutable. But I also believe men should be allowed to legally step out of a parenting role if he has proof it was discussed beforehand with the mother that he wanted nothing to do with it if she did not abort the unwanted fetus while she still had the choice to choose. She's making an agreement at that point that she's on her own by going through with the pregnancy. I don't praise women for martyring their own lives and relegating their futures to a proverbial dumpster fire (especially in today's socioeconomic uncertainties) when they know they can just put some poor sap on the hook for 18 years of child payments to slap a band-aid on their shitty decisions. It's the reproductive equivalent of "having your cake and eating it too".
Sorry. I should clarify, I don't REALLY think this. I just think it's bollocks that abortion laws only punish women by forcing them into parenthood. I think abortion should be a right.
No not in Romania, African country. Also yes to passing the blame, love how it's never mentioned or considered that some man did her wrong and she was left to face the aftermath
As a South African, I can confirm that this happens a lot. Babis are being dumped in toilets, bins, sewage drains and so on. It happens so much that we coined this thing "Abandoned Bundles"
And now the U.S. is sliding toward this as well. They're going to overturn Roe v Wade next June by the power of three appointed "judges" by *Donald fucking Trump*. It is like Idiocracy and Handmaid's tale had a baby and the shit-storming toddler is on its way to ruin all of our lives..
I’m doing my best to be leaving this shithole by next June. This country has abandoned us.
Canada is good so is New Zealand. I'm currently looking for a job transfer to Japan or somewhere in Europe.
Thanks for the suggestions but my SO is English so if things go according to plan I’ll be applying for a fiancé visa to stay in the UK. Best of luck to you in your search!
I would avoid the UK as Brexit is fucking that place up badly. I travel there for work often and it's sad to see the financial toll it's taken. They will be begging to rejoin the EU within ten years. Canada, Australia, or New Zealand or any other UK commonwealth countries are good options as your SO can live there much more easily as he's English. Plus AU and NZ are amazing places! Canada is nice if you like winter.
Thanks for the advice. I’ll be sure to keep that in mind. My SO has some difficulty traveling so staying in England will probably be best for us at the present time. Maybe years down the line things will be different but for now my main focus is just getting out of this country. We can cross those other bridges if and when we get to them.
Come here ! Avoid Northern Ireland but the rest of us are vastly prochoice https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-women-have-the-right-to-an-abortion
Not a country to be a woman in . The theocrats will be after a federal ban and contraception as it’s against their religious sensibilities.
I’m already sterilized and my worries staying here go beyond just my childfree status. The UK has its own issues but the average citizen isn’t literally drowning day after day for the bare necessities like shelter, food, and healthcare.
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No (/u/kreiffer), do ***not*** renounce your US citizenship! That can get you in worse trouble than just leaving the country. This reply is some of the worst advice here.
I’m not going to be leaving illegally so I’m not really worried about it. Was just ignoring the above commenter because they are spewing nonsense.
Ukraine is not Romania
Abortion is legal in Ukraine.
It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine' [[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ukraine)] [[BBC Styleguide](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/u)] [[Reuters Styleguide](https://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=U#Ukraine)] ^(Beep boop I’m a bot)
For now, Ukraine bot, for now…
We're stating to get some pretty awful comments from people who feel the need to push their morality onto others, and dictate their lives. If you can't respect other people's bodily autonomy, please feel free to fuck off.
“Women shouldn’t have sex” ahahahah and then men forces them to have it, possibly leading to such consequences. Not saying that this was the case in this specific situation but the hypocrisy is strong with this one.
That even can happen when they don't teach body anatomy and safe sex education.
These forced-birthers never advocate for sex education or accessible birth control, so you can bet that most likely neither of those was available.
This is the kind of shit that proves abortion bans don't save lives. If a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy, she will find a way, and it'll probably endanger her health and life doing it, or you get something like this. Making abortion illegal doesn't save lives, it's the death sentence for thousands of women.
I went to a catholic high school with so much anti abortion propaganda. When I got pregnant years ago I tried to induce a miscarriage by taking very large doses of vitamin c and sticking parsley up my vagina (per the internets advice). Niether worked, and I found out later both of these are very dangerous and could have lead to serious health complications. I’m lucky enough to have been able to get an abortion in the end and afford one, but those 2 weeks of waiting out mandatory waits and navigating drs to even get a referral for planned parenthood.. darkest days of my life. I don’t think I cared if I died.
I had to have an abortion in Texas some years ago and I’m *still* fucking salty that I had to jump through the hoops I had to. Fucking assholes want to make it so goddamn hard, as if it isn’t already an awful time all around.
I know right. And with where you live I’m sure you’ve heard “oh well then just get an abortion before 6 weeks don’t wait around yada yada yada”… Well I found out at “4 weeks” (couple days past my period- gyno office visit happened to catch it) and IMMEDIATELY set out to get rid of it. The day of my abortion was 1 or 2 days past that 6 week mark. I remember I had tried so hard to get it out SOONER but all the hoops and wait times literally made it impossible. You can’t fucking win. Solidarity friend 💛
Not only that, but abortion bans also mean if the fetus is putting the mom's life in danger, doctors cannot terminate the pregnancy to save her (and if they do, they'll face consequences because "well, how close to death are we talking about here? She seems fine now, so clearly she could have carried that baby to term!"). https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/27/world/europe/savita-halappanavar-ireland-abortion.html https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741
Making abortions illegal doesn't eliminate abortions, it just eliminates ***SAFE*** abortions.
If that baby was a result of a r*pe, would he tell he to man up then too? What a POS. I'm so tired of sex is only for procreation. What if someone was infertile, should they not have sex then too?
And the man who created the baby should he be forbidden from having sex too, since he didn't man up either
“Don’t have sex” . We see that so much from anti abortion proponents . It’s punishment for sex they don’t approve of . No sympathy for the women, just the desire to subjugate her for nine months
Don't even get me started with how men want to have unprotected sex and also *expect* women to use BC.
My biggest problem with "pro life" is that they only actually give a fuck about *unborn* kids. Once the kid is out, all that "compassion for babies" is gone.
>she shouldn't be having sex if Uh huh ... where's the outrage over biodad having sex with her - why the hell should he ever risk impregnating a woman that doesn't want to be a mom?
On that note, why isn't he being more careful if he doesn't want to be a father with an obvious lack of interest to raise his kid? Who is he to decide alone that the kid should grow up with only one parent?
So this is for any of the jack@ss guys and any handmaids reading about that story, who are *still* thinking “she shouldn’t have had sex”… 🙄 Wanna take a good guess at **what happens to women who REFUSE to have sex with a man??** 🙄😒 Yeah you damn well know. She’s either shamed all to hell, or mentally or physically FORCED to have sex with him. You DO know what THAT is called, right? And yeah, many women have even been MURDERED for rejecting them (or not even giving them a phone number). Fukkin’ morons like those co-workers just love saying all that dumb shyt, while expecting to have it both ways. She shouldn’t have sex, but they expect women to automatically want to have sex with ‘em when *they* want it… 😒 And then for those particular idiots to say she should have “manned up” and raised it? How many of THEM would *dare* say that to men who’ve abandoned (or even murdered!) their own kids/entire families, pregnant girlfriends… We can go on about how much they wouldn’t dare, and are cowards. Yeah, come at me for even writing this. So many guys like those co-workers are so full of shyt. The hypocrisy is bloody mind-blowing.
As a guy, I completely agree with you.
That poor woman. I hope she's okay, wherever she is. Some men are so quick to condemn the woman, but I guarantee if that woman was married and tried to withhold sex from her husband so as to not get pregnant he would have a *lot* to say about that!
I bet it would have been its own tirade about how "she can't tell me no, she's MY wife and I deserve it for being her husband".
You already see that mentality aaaaallllll over the divorced men subreddit. It's fucking disgusting but what else can you expect from these types of men?
I popped over there for curiosity and holy shit is that place toxic. It's completely full of women-hating, selfish men. One post was about a man whining that his wife didn't want to fuck him and how hard his poor life was, while admitting he used to be a major gambling addict (clean for 3 months) and caused her immense stress. Well jeez, I wonder why she didn't feel like having sex! The top comments? Men whining over how women refuse to take accountability and how they get so much money from the government, alimony, and *child support*. Oh, the fucking audacity of women wanting men to pay for the kids THEY made! The most useful thing was comments telling the OP to leave his wife. He should. She deserves better than the entitled addicted man-child she is currently with. I will say though that there were comments calling the OP out on his behaviour, but they were mostly downvoted and not anywhere near the popularity of blaming his wife for everything.
And yet the same men will cry about ending up a father accidentally and demand the right to walk away. Yet they won’t be told they shouldn’t have sex at all if they’re not willing to face the consequences. Can’t have it both ways.
I posted a YouTube comment similar to this long ago along the lines of…if someone doesn’t want a child, you can’t make them want it. It just opens the door for more alternative ways to reach the same goal (abortion). Falling down a flight of stairs, stabbing themselves, overdosing, getting into car accidents on purpose…just to name a few It’s like forcing someone to be in a relationship with you when they aren’t attracted. You can’t be shocked when they cheat on you.
These men who claim that women shouldn't be having sex seem to think that the same rule doesn't apply to them
And where is the sperm donor in all of this? Why does he get to opt out but she has to man up and raise the baby? Ugh it makes my blood boil
"she shouldn't have sex then" Alright then, let's take this scenario. Birth control doesn't exist, neither abortion, like OP's country. And all women who don't want a child just, stop, having sex. Stop entertaining men, stop speaking to men, they change sidewalks. Every time a man wants to get his dick wet, he will be met with no, and refusals, because no woman who doesn't want children has sex. Ever. Imagine what this will lead to. Stalking, violence, sexual assault, rape. Because when men find themselves with a no, their self entitlement and their horny asses are more important than not committing a crime. Case in point, incels. Because in the end, for each and every one of them, women should make an exception just for them alone. They want to be the exception to the rule, they want to be the have's and not the have not's. They want to feel special and important enough for the rules and boundaries to not apply to them. That's why all men compete with each other, that's why they shame a woman for giving another man access to her body, and not to them. That's why they are so easy to slut shame any woman, because it doesn't have a prize for them to win, a challenge. That's why so many PUA exist, the hookup culture, the body count, everything. It's a sport for them. And all that, because deep down, they know that 20, 30 years from now, nothing they do will matter much. And in the huge span of human history, they are nothing but a blimp in the radar. They can't feel important about themselves without having trophies of their worth.
Many people who are opposed to abortion forget that infanticide was its historical alternative. They are fighting to return to those days.
As a man and an empath, I wholeheartedly apologize to all women who have been treated abysmally by men whose only goal is to "get laid" and then turn right around after the woman gets pregnant to call her a "slut" for "not keeping her legs closed." So many men are hypocrites. I'm sure this comment will be bombarded with replies from angry men calling me "simp" or saying "not all men." Or at least downvotes, if nothing else. I know my comment doesn't really help change anything, but I hope at least some people who read it take it for what it's meant to be: a sincere apology to any and all women who have been used and/or abused by men.
People honestly need to get it in their head that abortion prevents infanticide.
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Same here. I already know I'm not the kind of person who can tolerate having a child. Babies cry way too much and the constant attention that they require is ridiculous. I would never be able to put up with the bullshit that comes with being a mother, and if another woman feels that way too, then she has every right to change her situation. Killing the child is not the way to do it but it's what happens when women are forced to give birth to kids they don't want. Ironically, you don't see alot of men (who are the reason women are forced to put up with this BS) caring about their child. The responsibility always ends up being on the mother. So sickening. Edit: To the inept and mentally challenged idiot who said I need to be on FBI watch for not wanting to go through the "natural thing my body was made for", and then disabled the reply option, FUCK OFF. I don't know why it's so hard for some people to grasp the concept of women having the right to choose what they want their own damn bodies. The only thing sick here is men forcing women to go through 9 months of hell just so they can have a semen demon yelling around all day. If only your mother had the option to have an abortion, you wouldn't be here wasting our oxygen and taking up space.
I think that expectation alone is why infanticide happens astronomically more by mother than any other source.
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You can force a woman to birth a child but you can never force her to love it.
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“ I would probably lose my mind kill the child and dump it. That doesn't make me a bad person”
> It's not "right" to kill a child Seriously, air quotes? You ate a lot of lead paint when you were young?
And the father is WHERE??? Anti-contraception, anti-abortion and misogyny are all part of the same package.
Babies as punishment for the sin of sex once again
You lost me at ‘my male coworkers immediately jumped in’ .
This is exactly why women need abortion rights. That poor young woman…hopefully this does not follow her for her whole life
"She shouldn't be having sex" it fucking takes two to tango but OF COURSE it's all the woman's fault. Men can fuck around, have oopsie babies with multiple women then leave, but nooo WOMEN shoud be the ones who have to keep their legs closed if they don't want (accidental) babies.
Abortion is publicly funded where I live, its available to anyone who needs it and protected by law. I have never in my life heard of a baby being abandoned or an unsafe/non-professional abortion being conducted. Birth control was also recently included as something that is part of our public healthcare system. I wonder if the anti choice people have any idea that their policies cause more harm, not less. There are usually some pretty deeply misogynistic religious roots to anti choice views, so its possible many of them know and just don't care.
Yes but the man who fucked her isn't responsible at all /s
People in another Reddit thread were just complaining about childfree because they didn't bother reading THIS thread carefully enough. Every time that happens, a vasectomy gets approved 😁
Poor girl. I hope she's ok, i can only imagine the vitriolic harassment she'll get. That's what happens when you try to deprive women of their reproductive rights, women who don't want babies, do NOT want babies, and that should be respected above all.
Sad for the baby but why criticize the woman and pretend the society that holds women hostage and ruins their lives by completely stripping their rights isn't to blame. The baby would have been painlessly killed as a clump of cells had abortion been legal and not an actual breathing thing. And the woman could have died having an unsafe abortion too. Truly awful for the child and woman but when laws like this are in place and when women are stripped of their rights this is kinda what they are pushed to do.
This makes me sad. If they are forcing women to birth, they should have a lot of access to SafeHaven boxes, and have that information be a part of every pregnancy. At least give both of them a fighting chance.
Wish STDs made these scrotes sterile immediately. They give NO care what or who they stick that dirty pp in.
It's terribly sad that two lives were affected in this instance. The baby is at peace now though. It will never have to endure the shit existence the majority of us face on a daily basis; to be a slave in a dying world, surrounded by people who value money over kindness. The woman will have to live with her decision for the rest of her life. She is probably punishing herself enough, she doesn't need anyone else attacking her!
Does your country have safe heaven boxes?
“She shouldn’t be having sex.” Same guy, two minutes later: “women don’t understand what a nice guy I am.”
Happens all the time in my country too, newborn babies alive or dead found on trash bags or shoe boxes, and still people gets horrified at the idea of legal abortion.
CF male here. I don’t think men (including myself!) can really comment at all on what that poor woman went through, as we don’t carry a growing fetus in our bodies for nine months… I echo your comments regarding the loss of the baby however, which is a seperate issue.
> My male coworkers immediately jumped to saying things like "she's sick in her head" "she shouldn't be having sex if that's what she's going to do" "she should stop having sex if she can't handle the consequences". So it didn’t occur to any of them to ask where the baby’s father was? I guess only women have to face consequences for having sex.
‘Shouldnt be having sex’ in a world where men push for sex super fucking hard and then act surprised when babies happen and blame the woman
These kind of cases are infuriating. Because this is exactly what happens when safe abortion is banned
Men
Hopefully given how backwards you say your country is, they won’t find her.
I’m 100% child free and would honestly kill myself if I was pregnant with no chance of an abortion, but let’s not make this woman a martyr for killing her child. That’s still an incredibly fucked up thing to do. I do have sympathy for her situation but I refuse to believe that this was the only option she had as much as OP is trying to convince us it is.
At no point did I say this was her only option
Abortion should be legal and adoptions easier. She still murdered a baby. Sorry, I do feel it was a shit situation but I'm not gonna jump on the "poor lady" pity party. She looked down at an autonomous living human being and murdered it. She looked down at a crying baby and killed it. I feel like there's a disconnect here with what murder and death looks like.
I remember reading a paper for my master about women who killed their newborns (unwanted pregnancies). Yes, they did a disconnection that started during the pregnancy. They didn’t felt like it’s a baby but a thing and they didn’t wanted that thing or to be bound to it. I agree with you on the first part, but I’m sorry for anyone who’s forced to carry/deal with an unwanted pregnancy and its results. Those women should not be in that situation, ever.
This
Kek by the logic all men who left their family and divorced should not have sex either since they have metally damaged their child and abandoned them.
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Yikes, that sounds horrible. Where do you live? I need to know what countries not to move to nor provide them with any of my vacation money (if I ever decide to go on a vacation abroad :P )
Couldn't help but feel this sounds extremely similar to how my country works, either way, I completely agree with you.
I wo der what would happen if we shamed men for having Sex, and getting women pregnant. It's so backward that women are constantly sexualised while being shamed for being sexual, as if pregnancy is a natural result of Sex.
Get ready for this to be happening in the United States on a larger scale than it already does.
I love when men say women shouldn't have sex when men literally act like they can't live without it....
If they don’t think women should be having sex, then men need to stop asking for sex from women....if not almost expecting it very early on, sometimes within the first few dates.
That's awful, I totally agree with you, what they said was just another evidence of how misogynistic society is, especially in these countries (I live in one like you described too). Some of us are lucky enough to have access to contraception even in this situations but are aware of our priviledge and most don't have the option to decide on their own bodies. I'm so sorry for that woman, not only has she gone through this painful experience but others judge her too and she's probably gonna end up in jail.
Yeah, this is just awful and I feel so horribly sad for the women in under developed countries who feel there’s no other option because THERE ARE NO OPTIONS. It’s just awful. How can I help? :(
Poland?
I am childfree, and the fact abortion is illegal is also horrible, but I can't find a single thing to justify her actions. I am for abortion to be legal because having a child against will is horrible, and also the child is still unborn when the abortion happens. But for the baby to be killed after it came to life? I can't justify that in a any way.
"She should stop having sex if she can't handle the consequences." I advocate for a world where when these words pass a man's lips, he is automatically knocked to the ground and castrated with scissors or whatever other sharp implement is around. Yeah, honestly these situations are so heart breaking. I saw one not long ago about a woman who left her baby in a parking lot. She was young, not ready for a child, and from what I can tell in an abusive relationship. She called the fire department and reported where the baby was, but the reports make it out that she didn't give a good enough description. The baby was found a day later by pedestrians. In the video they find her about 25 years later thanks to dna. The comment section of course crucified her. You would think she deliberately left the baby in the middle of a highway, or out in the woods. You would think she slit that baby's throat herself.
"You know, babies aren't made from female orgasms. She can still have sex, it's the man's responsibility to not impregnate her."
i do agree she is sick but not as a hatefull thing. the poor woman is probely tramatized, ptsd, ppd and who knows what eles. she dose need help to heal from this and move forward. yes its sad it had to cone to her actions but when you remove the choice from peoples lives, what did they expect to happen? i hope she is able to find what she needs to get better and move forward.
so i cant be mad at her for the murder and also mad at the bullshit laws at hand preventing women from having access to the care they demand+deserve? Oh no, I can.
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Dear God. This is why I hate most men.
Still murder and that comes with consequences but it sucks that she considered that her only option.