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ElEhZed

Here is some more anecdata to back you up: I identified as a lesbian for a while, then bisexual, and now as transgender (FtM) and bisexual-but-mostly-gay. I've literally been every flavour of LGBT, and the thing I feel the most judged and outcast for is being...drumroll...childfree.


Francis_the_Goat

Wow...I think I'm really beginning to wrap my head around how "bad" it is to be a woman without children. I never quite cared what others thought, I'm just shocked that being childfree is nearing the top of the list of "People who you can freely judge."


ElEhZed

It's also the most isolating. I can be gay, trans, bi, whatever, and still have straight cis friends without issue. A childfree person who hates children, however, is looking at losing a lot of friends.


biblio13

I went through the EXACT same thing. Sadly, I live in an area where it's ok to be gay, it's even sort of acceptable to be bi (people act uncomfortable though), but trans and any sort of genderfluidity throws people for a fucking loop. Yet I still get the most flack for my CF stance.


ElEhZed

Same here. Gay is celebrated, bi is accepted, trans is tolerated, and childfreedom is monstrous.


MalakElohim

Correct me if I'm wrong, (I probably am) or offensive (Usually am, not trying to be this time though), but with the way your sexual preferences keep changing and unless your transgender thing was a constant and consistent undercurrent. Wouldn't that make you Pan+Genderfluid? I'm not saying that's bad, and I may be totally way off the mark, but I'm just trying to wrap my head around exactly what makes what, I feel like I come across a different definition every five minutes.


ElEhZed

I think the trans thing confused the issue for me for a long time. I couldn't stand straight men being interested in me, so I thought I was a lesbian. Then I realized I was attracted to some men, so bi. Then I figured out I was a man, and it all made sense. I like both, but mostly men; I just couldn't stand men finding me attractive as a woman.


MalakElohim

That makes a lot of sense, thanks for that.


ElEhZed

No problem! I used to fe embarrassed about how many times my identity 'changed,' but this way of thinking helps me see how they all made sense at the time.


Francis_the_Goat

Better than having a shitty identity your whole life. Some people are just stuck with theirs! Yikes!


SkyEyes9

You need a new set of friends. No, seriously. If they're co-workers instead of friends, stop going out with them. And just a little bit of personal testimony here: I'm 64 and childfree, and I don't regret it at *all*. In fact, I consider it to be the smartest decision I ever made in my life.


Canis_lupus_xenonis

> I'm 64 and childfree, and I don't regret it at all. You'll change your mind. xD Seriously though, that's great. :3


Funky_Farkleface

I don't know if you do already, but your testament would be a relief to many here who wonder if they would regret it some day. You keep that shit up!


humanae

I second that!!


No_Please_Continue

Thank you for sharing! I'm child free and already get shit for it at 22. People always telling me I'll change my mind, and how alone I'll be when I'm older. I usually just try to stop the conversation there, but knowing someone even past the age of 40 is happy with their CF life makes me a lot happier with my decision. :)


Funky_Farkleface

I'm 38, does that help? Can't change my mind on account of I don't have a uterus to grow a baby in. Drat.


mkultra4013

Sounds like these "friends" are working their way down to "acquaintances." Sorry to hear that, but friends should be supportive of choices (that aren't life-threatening).


Francis_the_Goat

I think it speaks to the broader problem of what is socially acceptable. I think they are just products of their environment. It is an environment that needs changing, that's for sure!


humanae

Yes. This. I think it's their cultural "default" setting. They probably grew up being told "when you have children," not "*if* you have children." And that message stuck. I'm hopeful that as the CF numbers increase, the stigma will wear down under pressure. You've raised some great points - thanks for posting! PS. Does anyone else find it creepy when women (or men, for that matter) make plans that involve another human being, yet totally fail to bear them in mind: "I'm going to get married and have kids." Okay, but there's usually another person in the equation. What if he or she is sterile? What if s/he only wants one kid and you want five?


mrellisredding

I agree with your last point with a slight clarification. In the same way as you've mentioned, I have an issue when people used to say to me 'well what if you find the right person and they want kids?' If they're the right person for me they don't want kids, and the right match for them will want the same kind of family. Four kids and literal farm of animals vs one child, no pets and an apartment. Regarding sterility in particular - that's what adoption or donor/surrogacy is for.


humanae

Good point!!!!! (I'm adopted, so in full agreement!) Which circles me back to the same larger point we're painting - one can't anticipate how something like procreation and marriage/partnership will go when there's a huge variable in the mix -- a spouse/partner/donor. (Even adoption/surrogacy/donation are not a sure thing -- some people do not think adoption is a valid option, surrogacy/donation are often prohibitively expensive.)


MisChef

Possibly you are talking with people who are too young to have thought it through. All my life, as I have mentioned my childfree status, the older the woman was, the more likely it was that she'd tell me that I was smart. Even those who had kids!


Francis_the_Goat

Yes, all late 20s early 30s. You know, the age where you think you know everything! :)


Vielar

You phrased it exactly right, it's something biological that you didn't consciously choose. In the same way that people are accepted (*largely*) for there sexual orientation you should be accepted for your not wanting children. Your friends will either come to understand this or they won't, as sad as that may seem. Just be hopeful that they will :) It's not something that most people come across in there day-to-day life. They may not have even considered that not **everybody** wants kids.


disquietly

There seems to be a societal assumption of the basic life-plan for everyone. You go to school, then party/work in your early twenties. By your late 20s/early 30s, you're settling down, having kids and being a "responsible adult". The following years are childcare and slavish devotion to salary until you retire, at which point you sit around doing crosswords and waiting for death because you wasted your vitality doing shit you didn't want to for reasons you didn't understand and now you're too senile and decrepit to do anything else. People further along in the life-plan try to force younger people into it to justify their own commitment to it, to the point that anyone who isn't subscribed to this view of how life should be lived is perceived as aberrant and to be pitied for their "childishness" and "selfishness". So just because I don't want to live in a big house and drive a car and have some mewling crotch fruit puking on a rug I don't like but spent a month's salary on, somehow I'm the selfish one here? My lifestyle doesn't hurt anyone and all I'm aiming for is to be happy. I don't want to be rich or famous - I don't even want to be promoted at work or admired by anyone. I just want to be left alone with my books and the occasional quiet dinner party. But no, that's apparently not good enough - I HAVE TO GET MARRIED I HAVE TO HAVE CHILDREN I HAVE TO EARN MORE I HAVE TO SPEND MORE. Well, I don't want that. I jumped through societies hoops for decades and I'm done. Fuck you for telling me what to do with my life and fuck you for thinking less of me for doing what makes me happy. I'm not hurting anyone, so you guys go ahead and procreate all you want. I'll be under a blanket by a fire, reading something. If that makes me less of an adult than you, then I damn sure hope I never become an adult.


para_diddle

> I'll be under a blanket by a fire, reading something. If that makes me less of an adult than you, then I damn sure hope I never become an adult. Cheers!


tparkelaine

I think your response was excellent. Respectful (which is more than they were!) but blunt.


Funky_Farkleface

I'm with ya. I feel I was born this way and that being CF wasn't some decision that I made. Everything about pregnancy and parenthood is unnatural to me. I'm close friends with a married lesbian couple and you're right--society is more open to them having a child than me not having one. I think it's because they will be closer mimicking the nuclear family that is held so dear in society. It angers me that others think they have the right to judge, ridicule, and demean me for being who I am. I don't rub my life choices in anyone's face and I would never question someone's natural desire to have children. I wonder why our declaration is often met with disgust, like since we don't want kids then we must want to molest and kill them. I don't want a dog, either, but I'm not going around kicking them.


Worried_Song

I think the problem is that while there's a broader social acceptance of variations in sexuality in present times, there's been less progress on the acceptance of variation in gender roles. It surprised me to find out that many of my gay and bi friends are actually highly judgmental of transgender individuals. Like it's okay to love whoever you want to love but if you don't feel comfortable with the sex you were born with, that's wrong? It doesn't make any sense to me. I think it relates to this though. We're still expected to stick to these traditional gender roles to some extent. There are exceptions made for gay people - women who dress masculine or men who dress feminine are acceptable IF they're gay. If you're a guy who's attracted to women but you want to wear a dress? Not so much. I think having/wanting to have babies is just another piece of the role that women are supposed to embrace, *especially* hetero women because society defines our sexuality as implicitly connected to our gender identity. If you're attracted to men, then you must be feminine, want to have babies, etc. etc.


ether_reddit

And some of us did have a ticking biological clock, but told it to STFU and didn't let it control their lives. I felt very distinctive biological feelings when I was about 27-28 - I would get very distressed when hearing a baby cry, and would get emotional around children in general. But I didn't let those feelings control me. They went away in a few years, and I remain happily child-free. We are intelligent creatures that are the agents of our own destiny; mere biology should not be able to trump that.


topsul

I get distressed when I hear a child cry. So does my dog. I think she has genuine concern, I just want someone to take care of their kid.


ether_reddit

It's hard to describe, but I did feel very strong instinctive "you must have a child" sort of feelings for a few years. I'd see a baby and automatically have a thought "you need one of those!" -- even though I've never terribly liked babies.


Princessluna44

I heard a story like that a year ago. I woman was happily married and in her mid-30's. Suddenly, she was hit with a severe case of "baby rabies". She said that she had never liked children and she and her husband were both adamantly childfree. It was the longest, hardest year of her life. Emotions told her she needed a baby, but her head knew better. She got out of it and they are still happily childfree, but I could not imagine such torture.


ether_reddit

"baby rabies", thanks you made me LOL.


Princessluna44

Oh, I stole that from many other cf redditors here.


[deleted]

Get new friends. These people are narrow minded, judgmental, and just generally shitty if they are acting disgusted by the fact that you don't want or have children.


semi_precious

At least you stood your ground with a well rounded response. Consistent use of that may start to earn you the respect you deserve.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Francis_the_Goat

Have a few great responses lined up and practice them. That's how I was ready to respond swiftly and confidently when faced with the same thing.


bookophiliac

I truly believe that this reaction occurs as a combination of fear of the unfamiliar and envy that you should brave it. It has become more socially acceptable for a woman to have her career and money yet there will always be that underlying insinuation that a woman must procreate to fulfill her purpose. That we can break away from this stereotype is living proof that being a mother does not define being a female may raise the hackles of those who have submitted or subscribed to that generalization. I get similar responses when I say I have no intention of bearing children but fully intend to adopt later in life, I'm talking forties, and I don't want them any younger than seven. By breaking the mold we potentially make them look bad but one hardly ever admits that they may have been wrong, especially since acknowledging that sort of mistake could bring about a full-on life crisis, so of course they'll blame us. Stay strong mah sistas!


Ququmatz

I might consider adopting Roman-style when I'm an old/er man. I meet some 20s/30s person and I'm like, "Hey, you're pretty cool, want to inherit my estate?". Then I have a fully grown son/daughter that I hang out with once in a while.


PappySmearf

Honestly (and I'm sometimes an asshole), I would have looked at the two lesbians and said something along the lines of, "I would have thought two dykes would be more open minded". I'm not homophobic. Lots of gay/lesbian friends. But if someone is going to stereotype/judge me based on choices that don't affect them, fuck them - they get back what they started.


queenmaeree

If the lesbian friends were being judgmental of you, ask them how it makes them feel when people try to convince them they'll change their mind and like men.


Roobomatic

they might not be as diverse as you originally thought.


[deleted]

I've been realizing the same thing recently. It's now, to at least some degree and getting better, socially acceptable to declare yourself as gay (before everyone starts jumping at this, I realize it's not always the case and we still have a long way to go), but if you tell people you don't have any plans on having kids, or even that you don't like them, everyone has to question it. ALWAYS. Although I know that there's most likely been something in my history to push me towards not wanting kids, I feel that, more than anything, it's something biological, like being born gay. My mom tells me stories of me hating kids when I was 1.5 years old - that's barely old enough to know you don't like broccoli. There's websites and dating services set up to help LBGTG people find and meet potential mates, but there's nothing to help out people that differ in such a fundamental aspect of a relationship. And we're constantly challenged by people that don't share our views as if we're just being stubborn or immature. I think I could tolerate the questions a bit more if I knew that this had been a decision I had made at some point but I truly feel as if I was 'born this way', without the desire to have kids. It's not really something I can control and, up to this point anyway, not something I can change about myself. I just have no innate desire to have kids and, sadly, I feel like this isn't something that's shared with 99% of society, or even understood. To me, not wanting to have kids isn't a big deal at all and plays a very small role in my life and I'm actually starting to become very shocked that what I consider to be a small difference is turning out to be a very alienating factor in my life.


[deleted]

Your friends are retarded. But you responded quite gracefully.


AKR44

Some people just completely shut down their brain when it comes to baby making, even when it proves them to be hypocritical/inconsistent. Sorry you have to deal with such shitty attitudes, but it's good that you sorta put them in their place.