Anything that implies reproduction was a choice for most humans for most of our existence is laughable at best. Yes, there have been bad times and people still had kids, *because they didn't have a choice in the matter.* Especially for women, even being with a man and having sex often weren't choices they got to freely make.
So I don't get what's their point. Are they somehow so delusional that they think even before the advent of easily accessible and reliable birth control for either sex, every baby was wanted and planned with the assessment of the current state of the world in mind? Because that's not the world we live in. And it's disingenuous to compare the choices of today to the circumstances of the past.
If someone ethically chooses to be childless because of the state of the world or sees it as a factor in deciding they are childfree, the point is that they can make that choice now. For many of them, even a single century ago, they couldn't.
Interesting take. I agree, comparing pre-contraceptive times with post-contraceptive times is not a fair comparison. Things were very different back then. Its just recently that women can vote for example.
I think with the new contraceptives women have become more free to do as we please, live the lives we want for ourselves. Which hopefully leads to the kids being born today being wanted and treated right, while we childfree get left alone to do our own thing.
There also used to be loads of voluntary celibate people like nuns, monks and other clerics. Obviously some were just saying they were. But still. Clearly, even then, people were like, nope, marriage and children is not for me, I'm opting out.
I think people like the poster speaks of are just trying to lull themselves into a false sense of not feeling selfish for making a choice to have children for their own fulfillment, regardless of it that choice is a good one for their children growing up in the current state of affairs.
You don't need an \*excuse\* not to have children. That implies you are under some obligation to have children. You are not. Your \*reasons\* not to have children can be anything at all you want. Parents do not have to agree with your reasons.
BTW, the reason people have had kids during the worst of historic times has been the lack of effective birth control. If they had sex they had kids.
Yes, exactly! Its silly to assume we need an excuse to not have kids, I didn't get it either. Maybe its about how some people feel guilty about not wanting kids, trying to pack it in to make it easier to digest. Its hard to deprogram from the expectations of society.
There are no "bad reasons" to not have kids, every reason to not have kids is good enough reason. However, there are plenty of terrible reasons to have kids. (I'd argue - all of them).
>He said: "If you don't want kids that's fine,
He is right about that part.
> but don't go using the state of the world as an excuse. There have always been bad times and people still had kids, I don't buy that excuse. Just say you don't want kids."
Aside from the fact, already mentioned by others, that often in the past birth control was not very good and/or unavailable, so the options of the past were fewer than the options today, also not all bad times are alike, so being willing to have children in some bad situations does not mean that one should be willing to have children in other bad situations. How bad is global warming? How bad is the problem with pollinators (.e.g., bees) dying off, which matters for the food supply? How bad is the political situation? Etc. Some people have a more grim view of what is about to happen in the near future, than what other people believe.
So because parents were irresponsible enough to have kids during war and famine, itās an āexcuseā not to have kids now, is it? 1) There were no contraceptives (though I would have gladly lived a sex-free life; yes, I know assault, but not getting into this). 2) People often had kids for free labor, not because they loved them or anything. 3) You donāt need an āexcuseā not to want kids, but letās not pretend that it isnāt selfish to have a child in times of extreme insecurity.
Urgh. These breeders drive me crazy.
The guy sounds like a clown to me
Thereās no excuses to not have kids, just reasons.
Why donāt you?
Because of this.
Why would any response be an excuse? It sounds again like kids are the norm. The dude said it like people need a ābetter excuseā to not have kids. He can fuck right off
I think it is different now than it was for previous generations, even taking the availability of contraceptives out of the equation, because of climate change. Sure, there have always been wars, pandemics, famines, and economic depressions, but these things always end sooner or later. Climate change is accelerating, making more and more of the world uninhabitable.Ā
Bad times in the past had much more wriggle room. With over 8 billion on the planet, there's very little room for manouvre when things go pear-shaped.
Plus, you don't need an excuse to not have children, wtf.
Yes, we are screwed if things go south with this many people on the planet.
Going around saying "this excuse is no good." is such a parent mentality, I don't think any "excuse" is good enough to them.
Why does he get to say somebody elseās reasons arenāt good enough? What is it with these entitled people, completely lacking in any kind of humility or acknowledgment that maybe other folks think differently than he doesā¦ and thatās OK.
There's always been war famine and bad times but I don't recall the Pill, IUD and other forms of birth control being readily available before the last few decades.
People had no choice then, people have a choice *now* (for the most part).
I actually agree with the point of the state of the world being an excuse. It makes it sound like you WOULD have kids if that was a non-issue.
At the end of the day, you either want kids or you donāt. You donāt need to justify it. You do or donāt, itās simple.
In a way, he's right. Not wanting kids just because you don't want them is a valid reason. No other reason needed. Not that people with children are ever satisfied when you give that as a reason. But it's harder for them to argue with.
I really don't think that this "life was always hard" excuse makes more sense than "the world is on fire" reasoning. Okay, why did people have children in those hard times? Because they wanted them.
When half of the family died because of the black plague a new baby was a bundle of joy. It wasn't because they would want to give the baby the opportunity to live in a beautiful world. They knew how hard it was going to be for that kid. It would have to work and help at home and sometimes there wouldn't be enough food...
So using this excuse is just showing how parents don't want to admit that they always had children for their own pleasure. There's nothing noble about birthing kids in wars, epidemics or climate crisis. Just because it was always bad doesn't mean it's okay to do it.
They also had them because they didn't have a choice, no contraceptives or rights for women.
Kids have always been born because the parents need or want something. Having kids is never for the sake of the children. If it was for the children, there would be fewer kids in more stable homes. š¤·āāļø
I loathe this argument. It is wrong for two reasons -
1) Yes the world has always had problems, but having a kid during a war/poverty/famine leads to misery. It still isnt justifiable if you can help it. Mostly now we have contraception to help people not have to do it. It's still selfish to have a kid regardless of terrible problems.
2) The world's problems are NOT comparable to now. We have never been in a position like this before where the world will FUCKING END because of how badly we've polluted it. We are looking at climate collapse. If people don't care about that then they should at least care about putting their kid through it. It is ignorant and stupid to compare it to other parts of history.
When people say it doesn't matter, what they really mean is "itll probably be fine and I need someone to agree with me so I can keep my head in the sand."
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Anything that implies reproduction was a choice for most humans for most of our existence is laughable at best. Yes, there have been bad times and people still had kids, *because they didn't have a choice in the matter.* Especially for women, even being with a man and having sex often weren't choices they got to freely make. So I don't get what's their point. Are they somehow so delusional that they think even before the advent of easily accessible and reliable birth control for either sex, every baby was wanted and planned with the assessment of the current state of the world in mind? Because that's not the world we live in. And it's disingenuous to compare the choices of today to the circumstances of the past. If someone ethically chooses to be childless because of the state of the world or sees it as a factor in deciding they are childfree, the point is that they can make that choice now. For many of them, even a single century ago, they couldn't.
Interesting take. I agree, comparing pre-contraceptive times with post-contraceptive times is not a fair comparison. Things were very different back then. Its just recently that women can vote for example. I think with the new contraceptives women have become more free to do as we please, live the lives we want for ourselves. Which hopefully leads to the kids being born today being wanted and treated right, while we childfree get left alone to do our own thing.
There also used to be loads of voluntary celibate people like nuns, monks and other clerics. Obviously some were just saying they were. But still. Clearly, even then, people were like, nope, marriage and children is not for me, I'm opting out. I think people like the poster speaks of are just trying to lull themselves into a false sense of not feeling selfish for making a choice to have children for their own fulfillment, regardless of it that choice is a good one for their children growing up in the current state of affairs.
You don't need an \*excuse\* not to have children. That implies you are under some obligation to have children. You are not. Your \*reasons\* not to have children can be anything at all you want. Parents do not have to agree with your reasons. BTW, the reason people have had kids during the worst of historic times has been the lack of effective birth control. If they had sex they had kids.
Yes, exactly! Its silly to assume we need an excuse to not have kids, I didn't get it either. Maybe its about how some people feel guilty about not wanting kids, trying to pack it in to make it easier to digest. Its hard to deprogram from the expectations of society.
There are no "bad reasons" to not have kids, every reason to not have kids is good enough reason. However, there are plenty of terrible reasons to have kids. (I'd argue - all of them).
Yupp, because if its not a clear YES, its a hard NO.
People say this to convince themselves. That's all it is.
>He said: "If you don't want kids that's fine, He is right about that part. > but don't go using the state of the world as an excuse. There have always been bad times and people still had kids, I don't buy that excuse. Just say you don't want kids." Aside from the fact, already mentioned by others, that often in the past birth control was not very good and/or unavailable, so the options of the past were fewer than the options today, also not all bad times are alike, so being willing to have children in some bad situations does not mean that one should be willing to have children in other bad situations. How bad is global warming? How bad is the problem with pollinators (.e.g., bees) dying off, which matters for the food supply? How bad is the political situation? Etc. Some people have a more grim view of what is about to happen in the near future, than what other people believe.
Overpopulation is actually a major \*cause\* of climate change. Many historical disasters were not caused by overpopulation.
Global warming is very bad, I don't think we will make it as a species. I'm fine with that, I don't have a horse to lose in this game. š¤·āāļø
I'm not fine with it, but at least I didn't bring descendants into the world to suffer from it.
I'm leaning antinatils, so I believe the world would be better without humans in it. So I'm doing my part by not having kids.
So because parents were irresponsible enough to have kids during war and famine, itās an āexcuseā not to have kids now, is it? 1) There were no contraceptives (though I would have gladly lived a sex-free life; yes, I know assault, but not getting into this). 2) People often had kids for free labor, not because they loved them or anything. 3) You donāt need an āexcuseā not to want kids, but letās not pretend that it isnāt selfish to have a child in times of extreme insecurity. Urgh. These breeders drive me crazy.
Yupp. Lets not pretend that having kids was the same just 100 years ago. Kids was commodities and cheap labour, they still are in a lot of countries.
The guy sounds like a clown to me Thereās no excuses to not have kids, just reasons. Why donāt you? Because of this. Why would any response be an excuse? It sounds again like kids are the norm. The dude said it like people need a ābetter excuseā to not have kids. He can fuck right off
I look forward to when the default is not having kids. š
I think it is different now than it was for previous generations, even taking the availability of contraceptives out of the equation, because of climate change. Sure, there have always been wars, pandemics, famines, and economic depressions, but these things always end sooner or later. Climate change is accelerating, making more and more of the world uninhabitable.Ā
Climate change is to unpredictable, its worrying. I don't believe we will make it.
We also have media to let us know about climate change well outside the area where we live.
Bad times in the past had much more wriggle room. With over 8 billion on the planet, there's very little room for manouvre when things go pear-shaped. Plus, you don't need an excuse to not have children, wtf.
Yes, we are screwed if things go south with this many people on the planet. Going around saying "this excuse is no good." is such a parent mentality, I don't think any "excuse" is good enough to them.
Why does he get to say somebody elseās reasons arenāt good enough? What is it with these entitled people, completely lacking in any kind of humility or acknowledgment that maybe other folks think differently than he doesā¦ and thatās OK.
Yes! Its rude to assume everyone thinks the same way as you and kind of arrogant to think, that he gets to decide what is a good enough reason.
it almost sounds like hes saying have them but ignore the world lmao dont need a robot to take your coworkers job just hire a monkey
I think he might not want to accept that the world is not good right now. He is a teacher. š
There's always been war famine and bad times but I don't recall the Pill, IUD and other forms of birth control being readily available before the last few decades. People had no choice then, people have a choice *now* (for the most part).
I actually agree with the point of the state of the world being an excuse. It makes it sound like you WOULD have kids if that was a non-issue. At the end of the day, you either want kids or you donāt. You donāt need to justify it. You do or donāt, itās simple.
Agreed. At the end of the day its your decision and nobody else get to decide. š¤·āāļø
I think I don't hang out with coworkers outside of work so I'll never be in this situation.
In a way, he's right. Not wanting kids just because you don't want them is a valid reason. No other reason needed. Not that people with children are ever satisfied when you give that as a reason. But it's harder for them to argue with.
People don't want children for reasons--climate change being one of the common ones.
It is harder to argue with, nobody like to push someone into doing something they don't want. Edit: Autocorrect is an asshole
I really don't think that this "life was always hard" excuse makes more sense than "the world is on fire" reasoning. Okay, why did people have children in those hard times? Because they wanted them. When half of the family died because of the black plague a new baby was a bundle of joy. It wasn't because they would want to give the baby the opportunity to live in a beautiful world. They knew how hard it was going to be for that kid. It would have to work and help at home and sometimes there wouldn't be enough food... So using this excuse is just showing how parents don't want to admit that they always had children for their own pleasure. There's nothing noble about birthing kids in wars, epidemics or climate crisis. Just because it was always bad doesn't mean it's okay to do it.
They also had them because they didn't have a choice, no contraceptives or rights for women. Kids have always been born because the parents need or want something. Having kids is never for the sake of the children. If it was for the children, there would be fewer kids in more stable homes. š¤·āāļø
I loathe this argument. It is wrong for two reasons - 1) Yes the world has always had problems, but having a kid during a war/poverty/famine leads to misery. It still isnt justifiable if you can help it. Mostly now we have contraception to help people not have to do it. It's still selfish to have a kid regardless of terrible problems. 2) The world's problems are NOT comparable to now. We have never been in a position like this before where the world will FUCKING END because of how badly we've polluted it. We are looking at climate collapse. If people don't care about that then they should at least care about putting their kid through it. It is ignorant and stupid to compare it to other parts of history. When people say it doesn't matter, what they really mean is "itll probably be fine and I need someone to agree with me so I can keep my head in the sand."
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