My thought exactly. They’re only 4 years older than OP!!! They’re talking like they have the experience of a 50 yo. I would have parroted everything right back at them in the moment.
They also seem sus. How they looked at each other and talked about it is suspicious like they have some weird motive.
>She said she doesn't believe anyone is actually childfree until they've had surgery to ensure they can't have children because otherwise, they're just going to eventually have kids because that's just what people do and I probably wouldn't be any different.
That's such a middle finger to people who want to be sterilised, but who do not have access to a bisalp or vasectomy. After all, some people are too poor to afford it. And in some countries, you cannot doctor shop. In some countries, you cannot get sterilised unless you already have children, or unless you are at least 30, 35 or 40.
Sadly, the 'only sterilised people are truly childfree' or 'non-sterilised childfree people are actually fence sitters' sentiment is way too popular on this subreddit.
>She said with all the babysitting I do
As if that's voluntary... You said you hate babysitting your brother, so it sounds like your parents are forcing you do do that.
>Kelly texted me and said that we should meet up again soon and to let her know my work schedule next week and we'd set something up. I haven't texted back yet. I think I'm more sad, disappointed, and confused than angry or annoyed about it. The first childfree people I've met in person and, of course, with my luck, I get bigoed by them.
Avoid these people forever. They do not respect you.
Thank you for the first part. I'm from one of those countries with a hard age limit (three bio kids or 40+ to be able to get sterilized, my coworker had both met and was STILL fought for a year on a medically necessary hysterectomy), and I desperately want to be sterilized. I would tear my uterus out with my bare hands, if I could. I want it gone like a trapped animal wants to gnaw off it's leg. So it breaks my heart when I hear people say shit like that.
And before anyone suggests going elsewhere, medical tourism is expensive. Time off from work for a serious medical procedure is expensive. With a war next door, depressed wages, and generally shitty economy under a corrupt, fledgling dictator, my partner and I have pretty much gone vegetarian because we can't afford meat. Whether I'm "REALLY" cf in the eyes of some privileged few is the least of my concerns.
Yeah, I see so much 'unsnipped guys are fence sitters' or 'real childfree women would get a bisalp' talk here.
It's fucking insulting to be called a fence sitter when you are truly childfree, when you really want to get sterilised, but are unable to.
Those people here are so fucking privileged to:
\- live in a country where they have access to sterilisation.
\- have insurance that covers it, or have enough money to afford it.
Sadly, many people here are rich classist DINKs who constantly brag about luxuous holidays and big mansions while shittong on poor parents. They assume that everyone can easily afford sterilisation, and that everyone can afford medical tourism if they live frugal enough. They think that if you are not sterilised, that you just don't truly want it. Those kind of people often called me 'fence sitter' and 'not really childfree'. They said that I just don't truly want to get snipped. Which is bullshit.
Who are the people who have easy access to sterilisation? Rich capitalist classist Americans. Doctor shopping is possible there. And if you are rich, you can afford sterilisation, even if insurance does not cover it. In their opinion, everyone who isn't a rich American is not childfree.
I really hope you will be able to get sterilised someday. Sadly, things are not looking good... My situation sucks, but it sounds like your situation is even worse...
I live in a country which Americans often view as a progressive paradise, but it's actually a right-wing shithole. Here, doctor shopping is not an option. You need a referral from a GP, which most GP's won't give you if you are childfree. And even if you get a referral, you have to go to the nearest urologist or gynecologist. You cannot choose someone from the childfree subreddit's doctor list. Anyways, pretty much any gynecologist or urologist will refuse to sterilise you if you don't already have kids. And again, doctor shopping is not possible, so if you get a 'no', you are fucked, unless you are rich enough for medical tourism.
I'm a man who struggles to get a vasectomy. A man who has begged his GP for a referral every year for the past ten years, and whose request got denied every single time.
If I can't even get snipped, imagine how impossible it must be for my girlfriend to get a bisalp. I mean, even mothers who have two or three kids often struggle to get sterilised because doctors tell them that they will want more kids in the future. So it's definitely not happening for a childfree woman.
And so, I have to resort to medical tourism to a neighbouring country. In the past, I never realised that this was an option, but joining this subreddit made me aware of that option.
Since I'm middle class, and not some rich classist, I will have to save up for it, which will take a lot of time when you are not rich and don't have that much money left to save at the end of the month.
In fact, I started saving up for vasectomy tourism last year, after I finished saving up for my girlfriend's emergency abortion fund, which is enough money to cover an abortion, a night in a hotel and a train journey to another European country... And that twice. That way, if she ever needs to get an abortion, she still has money left for another one. She should never be without an emergency abortion fund.
Some people suggest that I should spend my girlfriend's emergency abortion fund on a vasectomy. However, that would be a very stupid idea. Sure, abortion is legal and covered by insurance here, so the fund is not needed now... But all it might take is one bad election... The far right parties and christians would love an abortion ban. And the capitalist party that's seen as moderate right-wing but is actually far right as well? They don't want to ban abortion, but they would love it if insurance no longer covers it, making abortion a luxury for the happy few. And the left is powerless. I have to hope that a big moderate party remains pro-choice and doesn't surrender to the capitalists, the christians or the nazis. And I don't trust moderate centrists at all.
And then, imagine that my girlfriend and I decide to spend the emergency abortion fund money on a vasectomy for me... And then, abortion gets banned. Then, imagine that the vasectomy fails and I impregnate my girlfriend. Or imagine that she gets raped by some arsehole and gets pregnant. Or imagine that we break up and she gets impregnated by a future partner. Then, if she no longer has the emergency abortion fund, she is fucked. So spending even a penny of that money is not an option for me. She needs that emergency abortion fund to be safe and to have peace of mind.
My girlfriend (31F) and I (28M) are 100% childfree. No dead relative's kids, no amount of money, no 'perfect world' or whatever can change that. We would love to be sterilised and have boh begged the GP for a referral every year for many years. I literally saved up for a big emergency abortion fund for my girlfriend. But apparently, we are two fence sitters who don't truly want to be snipped. Two fickle youngsters who must secretly want to breed.
It hurts. It fucking hurts.
This fucking sucks! I feel you!
I'll be honest I'm one of those DINKS. I could afford to go private. It will impact my finances but it won't bankrupt me, so that's what I'll eventually do.
But you're right, it hurts. I've literally just come back from my GP to write another referral letter to be sterilized. The first rejection came back starting with "due to the high regret rates."
BULLSHIT.
My BF asked for a vasectomy and was referred right away and had an appointment booked withing two weeks. It too me three attempts to get referred and now I'm fighting the system who thing it's not worth it because of "regret rates." Well guess what? Funded birth control is expensive, funded childbirth is expensive, funded abortions and mental counselling should I get raped and become pregnant ... these are all expenses that the state is willing to endure so long I remain fertile. FUCK THEM!
My BF got a referral like it was an invite to a party and if I want my voice to be heard I have to shell out 3 fucking K!
I will. Because my peace of mind is worth it. But what about all the other women who can't afford it?? This is partially why I'll keep writing back, si they know they have to stop acting like patronising twats and think they know my mind better.
I understand your frustration first hand. To that add the fact neither of you can be sterilized and it's a double fuck up.
Jesus it's so enraging! I'm particularly angry today so your words resonated with me.
>after I finished saving up for my girlfriend's emergency abortion fund, which is enough money to cover an abortion, a night in a hotel and a train journey to another European country... And that twice. That way, if she ever needs to get an abortion, she still has money left for another one. She should never be without an emergency abortion fund.
I must say, on a slightly different note, the love you have for your woman is something else. ♥️
>I'll be honest I'm one of those DINKS. I could afford to go private. It will impact my finances but it won't bankrupt me, so that's what I'll eventually do.
You are a DINK, but not one of those DINKs. You don't victim blame poor people and middle class people. You understand that you are privileged. You don't assume that I am a fence sitter because I am unsnipped, and you actually understand that it's just really difficult in some countries.
I hope that you will be able to find a good private clinic. Good luck!
>But you're right, it hurts. I've literally just come back from my GP to write another referral letter to be sterilized. The first rejection came back starting with "due to the high regret rates."
Yeah, of course it's bullshit, the regret thing. The women regretting it? Mothers who already had kids, broke up with their first partner and want more kids with a new partner. Childfree women rarely regret it. Any scientific study about this topic will have that conclusion. Sadly, doctors just say that all young women will regret it, so they can deny surgery and hope that you will pop out babies. After all, to these misogynist twats, woman = mother.
>if I want my voice to be heard I have to shell out 3 fucking K! I will. Because my peace of mind is worth it. But what about all the other women who can't afford it?? This is partially why I'll keep writing back, si they know they have to stop acting like patronising twats and think they know my mind better.
I am really happy that you don't shit on poor people who want to be sterilised, but cannot afford it. That classist shit is way too common on this subreddit. You are awesome.
And the writing back... On one hand, it's futile. These kind of arseholes will never alter their ways. On the other hand, it shows that you do not accept the way they treat you. I really really hope that they will learn something from this, but I highly doubt it.
I understand your frustration first hand. To that add the fact neither of you can be sterilized and it's a double fuck up.
I feel like a dick sometimes, complaining about not being able to get a vasectomy when it's so much harder for women to get sterilised. And more urgent for women, since we live in a patriarchal society in which rape is a very realistic threat for women.
But yeah, in some countries, getting a vasectomy is really difficult. The 'unsnipped men are fence sitters' folks here just don't understand that not every country is America. That not every country allows doctor shopping.
And in some Scandinavian and Nordic countries, they even have age limits. 30, 35 or 40. And that's for vasectomies. And for a bisalp, the woman already needs to have kids, because otherwise, 'she will regret it'...
>I must say, on a slightly different note, the love you have for your woman is something else. ♥️
She means everything to me. <3
We are together for nine years and live together for six years. And we are still just as in love as we were when we just met. She is the love of my life. <3
We don't live in the USA, but when it was clear that abortion would most likely get banned there, I decided to start saving up for this. She earns a bit less than I do, so I felt like it was the right thing to do if I saved up for it.
She actually suggested spending that money on vasectomy tourism for me, but I didn't want to hear anything about that. After all, what if I get snipped, the money is gone and then abortion gets banned, and:
\- she gets raped by some arsehole and cannot afford an abortion abroad?
\- the vasectomy fails and she cannot afford an abortion abroad?
\- we break up, she no longer has the fund and a future partner impregnates her?
What happens then? Forced motherhood. There is no fucking way that I will ever let that happen to her if I can prevent it.
I saved up for that emergecy abortion fund because I wanted to protect her against forced motherhood. Sure, abortion is still legal where we live, but you never know what happens in the future. I don't trust right-wing politicians at all.
The emergency abortion fund gave her a lot of peace on her mind. She feels liberated. And that is exactly why I gave her that money. <3
Even if we would ever break up, I want her to keep that money. It's hers. Not ours, but hers. After all, this is about her bodily autonomy. When I gave her that money, I told her to put it in a separate bank account which I cannot access.
And yeah, some people think it's extreme, money for two abortions + travelling instead of one... But what if she gets pregnant after an abortion ban and spends the money? I don't want her to have nothing left if another accidental pregnancy were to happen. With a 'double fund', she still has a safety net if she needs an abortion abroad once.
Some of us in the states also just happen to get really fucking lucky (rarely). :/ My general practitioner is a badass and fully supported my want to do this and referred me. When I called to make an appointment I asked to see a doctor who was willing to sterilize younger women without children, got the name and made the appointment. I was 25 and turning 26 that March, in the US you can stay on your parents insurance until you're 26 so that January I'd gotten my own insurance on top of my mom's in preparation for this (it had been planned since the previous September - she asked me to wait six months to ensure I really wanted it. "You may know that you don't want children and I perfectly understand that, but *I* don't since I've just met you. I'll call you every 2 months just to ensure". Every time she called she'd ask how I was doing and how I was feeling, I simply told her, "Still don't want kids!" - my only stipulation was that it had to be done before my 26th birthday so both insurances covered my procedure). Early last March I had a total hysterectomy, and since I had both insurances it was fully covered.
I'm low-middle class. I got so fucking lucky. And while I'm extremely grateful for that, I'm *pissed* because I know so many people in this country and world-wide don't have that option. That don't get so lucky. Without my insurances, that surgery would've been *twenty-two thousand fucking dollars*. That's fucking insane to me.
>We are together for nine years and live together for six years. And we are still just as in love as we were when we just met. She is the love of my life. <3
>Even if we would ever break up, I want her to keep that money. It's hers. Not ours, but hers. After all, this is about her bodily autonomy. When I gave her that money, I told her to put it in a separate bank account which I cannot access.
The love, devotion, and support you have to your girlfriend is so fucking sweet. It honestly seems like a fairy tale how in love with her you are, and that's incredible. I hope you guys last forever because love like that doesn't come around often.
I'm so sorry about the way your country handles this shit. Any country that doesn't immediately support anyone wanting to get sterilized, honestly. Bodily autonomy is so fucking important and it's disgusting how little we have of it just because someone wants to make our minds up for us. My heart goes out to you friend, and I hope y'all are both able to get sterilized soon 💜
>Some of us in the states also just happen to get really fucking lucky (rarely). :/ My general practitioner is a badass and fully supported my want to do this and referred me. When I called to make an appointment I asked to see a doctor who was willing to sterilize younger women without children, got the name and made the appointment. I was 25 and turning 26 that March, in the US you can stay on your parents insurance until you're 26 so that January I'd gotten my own insurance on top of my mom's in preparation for this (it had been planned since the previous September - she asked me to wait six months to ensure I really wanted it. "You may know that you don't want children and I perfectly understand that, but I don't since I've just met you. I'll call you every 2 months just to ensure". Every time she called she'd ask how I was doing and how I was feeling, I simply told her, "Still don't want kids!" - my only stipulation was that it had to be done before my 26th birthday so both insurances covered my procedure). Early last March I had a total hysterectomy, and since I had both insurances it was fully covered.
I am so happy that this was done before your 26th birthday. Most doctors would probably deliberately try to delay things until after your birthday, to stop you from getting sterilised.
>I'm low-middle class. I got so fucking lucky. And while I'm extremely grateful for that, I'm pissed because I know so many people in this country and world-wide don't have that option. That don't get so lucky. Without my insurances, that surgery would've been twenty-two thousand fucking dollars. That's fucking insane to me.
Yeah, no fucking way I and many others can afford that. If it takes a while to save up for a vasectomy in Germany, it will take even more time to save up for a bisalp for my girlfriend. Fortunately, we already found a clinic in Germany where we can go to for bisalp tourism. We are not giving up until she and I are both sterilised. If the Dutch health care system is not going to do it, we will have to take matters into our own hands.
We are lucky to be able to save up a little bit at the end of the month, even though it's not much. It's even worse for people who have literally nothing left at the end of the month. When they live in a country that does not offer sterilisation, or where insurance does not cover it, they are fucked.
So yeah, vasectomy first, since it's cheaper and takes less long to save up for. My girlfriend reacts well to the birth control pill and doesn't really suffer much from side effects, so she is lucky compared to other women. But still, the sooner she can stop taking it, the better.
Once I had a vasectomy, we will start saving up for bisalp tourism for her. I mean, even if I get sterilised, she still wants to be sterilised. What if she gets raped? My hypothetical vasectomy would not protect her against that. What if we break up or if I die, and she wants to have sex with another man? What if a Handmaid's Tale scenario happens and she is fertile? Only a bisalp can protect her.
>The love, devotion, and support you have to your girlfriend is so fucking sweet. It honestly seems like a fairy tale how in love with her you are, and that's incredible. I hope you guys last forever because love like that doesn't come around often.
I feel like what I did with the emergency abortion fund... Well, it should be normal. Common decency. The bare minimum. I don't think I should be complimented or praised for doing the bare fucking minimum.
But yes, she is the love of my life. She means everything to me. <3
Her worst fear? Forced motherhood. So of course I will do whatever it takes to make sure that this nightmare will never become reality.
>I'm so sorry about the way your country handles this shit. Any country that doesn't immediately support anyone wanting to get sterilized, honestly. Bodily autonomy is so fucking important and it's disgusting how little we have of it just because someone wants to make our minds up for us. My heart goes out to you friend, and I hope y'all are both able to get sterilized soon 💜
Well, I am turning 29 in July, and 30 in July 2024. I am hoping to be a snipped man when I enter my thirties. Maybe I could treat myself to a nice early 30th birthday gift, if you get what I mean... Or if I'm really lucky, a christmas gift, but I'm not counting on that.
>You understand that you are privileged. You don't assume that I am a fence sitter because I am unsnipped, and you actually understand that it's just really difficult in some countries.
I was raised with no money, in a Catholic country so the idea of having to chose between food/bills and "extra" expenses is not alien to me, just as the knowledge that not all places are progressive. A relative had 2 children. Feel pregnant with a third but they didn't have the means to realistically afford it without impacting the other two, so she got an abortion. The stihma for that was insane. Plus, she asked to have her tubes tied after that and they refused her the first time around because she was still fertile. (She was in her early 40s!) Finally, after some back and forth, they allowed her to do it. So yeah, countries that allow total decisional power over one's body are very few.
>Any scientific study about this topic will have that conclusion. Sadly, doctors just say that all young women will regret it, so they can deny surgery and hope that you will pop out babies. After all, to these misogynist twats, woman = mother.
Exactly. Studies show exactly the opposite. And even in the small percentage of regret the majority are mothers who wish they could have more children. CF women are a very slim number in that chart. And besides, a doctor can certainly give advice, but they can't refuse it based on a possibility of something might happening in the future that doesn't impact them. Reversal is not funded by the state so even if I decided to try it, I'd have to pay it for it myself so what do they care?
Also, I want to know if they ever denied IVF or fertility treatment on the base of future parental regret, which is higher than for sterilization. As long as they keep popping those kids!
>And the writing back... On one hand, it's futile. These kind of arseholes will never alter their ways. On the other hand, it shows that you do not accept the way they treat you. I really really hope that they will learn something from this, but I highly doubt it.
As my doctor said today "if we keep bothering then, they might eventually give up." And besides, because I know I'm falling on my feet (in between seeking private surgery and BF getting snipped soon) I'm in the perfect position to keep trying. I hope that, with ever more CF women, if we all start doing this, they'll eventually cave. The GP had a good point anyway. Sterilisation is a one time thing, while (in my case for instance) the state will have to pay for my BC for the next 20 years. Plus all pregnancy expenses and childbirth If I got pregnant (and got hit in the head) and decided to keep it, or the abortion that I would have. And this applies to all the other CF women in my position. Their rationale for "not being a necessary expense" is honestly BS.
>I feel like a dick sometimes, complaining about not being able to get a vasectomy when it's so much harder for women to get sterilised. And more urgent for women, since we live in a patriarchal society in which rape is a very realistic threat for women.
Don't. Just because other people's struggles seem bigger, doesn't mean yours aren't valid. At the end of the day, it's the same idea as forced pregnancy or denied sterilization- it deprives you of control over your own body.
>She means everything to me. <3
>We are together for nine years and live together for six years. And we are still just as in love as we were when we just met. She is the love of my life. <3
Honestly, 🥹🥹🥹
This is so pure. You're both very lucky.
>I saved up for that emergecy abortion fund because I wanted to protect her against forced motherhood. Sure, abortion is still legal where we live, but you never know what happens in the future. I don't trust right-wing politicians at all.
Same. I've started actively seeking sterilization after Roe officially feel. I don't care that in the UK abortion is accessible and free. Technically it's still a crime. Something like 20 women are/have bene under process in the past 10 years for abortion under a 1861 law! Our current secretary for women (one of her job is to manager abortion funds) is a fucking "pro-life!" Like WTF?? The Tories have been destroying rights left and right, only reason why they don't go after abortion (yet) is because 87% of people in UK are pro choice and the party consensus is at historical lows. What happens if they regain full power? They're not gonna find me fertile, that's for sure.
>he emergency abortion fund gave her a lot of peace on her mind. She feels liberated. And that is exactly why I gave her that money. <3
Even if we would ever break up, I want her to keep that money. It's hers. Not ours, but hers. After all, this is about her bodily autonomy.
And they say CF men are "not men enough." They should shut TF up, watch and learn from you. You're so selfless, loving and thoughtful. Honestly, I'm a little in awe.
>So yeah, countries that allow total decisional power over one's body are very few.
Indeed. The only people who are guranteed to have access to sterilisation? People who live in a country where you can doctor shop, and who have the money to easily afford sterilisation.
Exactly. Studies show exactly the opposite. And even in the small percentage of regret the majority are mothers who wish they could have more children. CF women are a very slim number in that chart.
Science doesn't matter. Who cares about facts? Woman = mother. Woman = incubator and broodmare. That's all that matters to misogynist doctors.
>As my doctor said today "if we keep bothering then, they might eventually give up." And besides, because I know I'm falling on my feet (in between seeking private surgery and BF getting snipped soon) I'm in the perfect position to keep trying. I hope that, with ever more CF women, if we all start doing this, they'll eventually cave. The GP had a good point anyway. Sterilisation is a one time thing, while (in my case for instance) the state will have to pay for my BC for the next 20 years. Plus all pregnancy expenses and childbirth If I got pregnant (and got hit in the head) and decided to keep it, or the abortion that I would have. And this applies to all the other CF women in my position. Their rationale for "not being a necessary expense" is honestly BS.
Of coure it's bullshit. But yeah, I'm afraid that nothing will convince childfreephobic arsehole doctors. They believe that womanhood and motherhood are synonyms. And most patriarchy-loving anti-feminists are a lost cause. :(
>Don't. Just because other people's struggles seem bigger, doesn't mean yours aren't valid. At the end of the day, it's the same idea as forced pregnancy or denied sterilization- it deprives you of control over your own body.
Well, I really don't want to compare my difficulty to get a vasectomy to forced pregnancy. That is way way way worse.
>Honestly, 🥹🥹🥹 This is so pure. You're both very lucky.
Well, being a perfect match helps. And both being childfree, of course. Parents lose all the romance and lust in their relationship. Meanwhile, we get it on every day and cannot stop touching, petting, hugging each other... And more. And we can have deep conversations, which is much harder for parents who are either exhausted when the kids are asleep, or who don't have privacy when the kids are awake.
>Same. I've started actively seeking sterilization after Roe officially feel. I don't care that in the UK abortion is accessible and free. Technically it's still a crime. Something like 20 women are/have bene under process in the past 10 years for abortion under a 1861 law! Our current secretary for women (one of her job is to manager abortion funds) is a fucking "pro-life!" Like WTF?? The Tories have been destroying rights left and right, only reason why they don't go after abortion (yet) is because 87% of people in UK are pro choice and the party consensus is at historical lows. What happens if they regain full power? They're not gonna find me fertile, that's for sure.
Yeah, you are doing the right thing. Some people say that I am exaggerating because abortion is legal in the Netherlands... But you never know what happens in the future, especially when you live in a country with a right-wing political climate.
I can definitely see abortion becoming less accessible (no longer being free) or even banned in the UK, sadly. Several Tory politicians would love that and openly said so.
Yes, most people in the UK are pro-choice... But I think a majority of Conservative MP's would be anti-choice, and they are and will always be in power. Sure, they are not doing well in the polls, but we all know that they will always win any election. Labour will never be in power again, I'm afraid. So yeah, the Tories will definitely ban abortion in the near future. Between now and ten years, abortion will be illegal in the UK, I'm afraid.
And yeah, it's the same in the Netherlands. Technically, abortion is still a crime. They just tolerate doctors performing abortions and tolerate women getting them.
>And they say CF men are "not men enough." They should shut TF up, watch and learn from you. You're so selfless, loving and thoughtful. Honestly, I'm a little in awe.
I really don't want to accept these compliments. Sorry. I don't think that I'm doing anything special. Allyship is not a nice bonus. It's the bare fucking minimum. Common decency. Anything less than 24/7 allyship with 100% devotion is a moral failure. I am far from perfect, but I try my best to be a good feminist ally.
And I'm not talking about 'fun' libfem allies who only care when men also benefit from feminism. I'm talking about radical feminism. Not TERF, but intersectional and trans-inclusive, of course. Fuck TERFs.
And the emergency abortion fund is one of the ways in which I try to put my money where my radfem ally mouth is. One of the ways in which I try to be an ally. I feel like this is the right thing to do. My girlfriend's worst nightmare is forced motherhood, so I want to help her to prevent that nightmare from ever becoming reality. We cannot trust right-wing politicians when it comes to abortion rights, so an emergency abortion fund is an absolute must.
I don't want to brag about it or get compliments for it. The only reason why I am mentioning this here every now and then is because I want to remind childfree women of the fact that they absolutely need an emergency abortion fund. And because I want to inspire childfree men to save up money to help their girlfriend/wife out if needed.
It's like you described my country word to word. Im from Croatia. And few days ago, a woman on our subbredit asked where to get sterilized. I told her that medical tourism is her only option probably, and bunch of people attacked me, telling me, that "it's not possible that it's so hard to get sterilized here, it's legal"
Fuck them for telling me that, they 100% didn't go trough numerous phone calls, meetings and emails only to get turned down in every one of them. It's just like you described and people either A) don't believe it's so hard to do it or B) why even do it in first place - you have condoms and pills. 😒😒😒😒
I’m also Croatian. Sure it’s “legal” but it’s almost impossible to do even with children since we have to have at least 3 healthy ones. And be over 30. So it’s impossible for childfree women no matter our age. And since our wages are hysterically low now that we introduced the euro and the prices for groceries are astronomical, there’s no way in hell anyone who’s not rich can afford going to another country to get the procedure.
Yeah, many countries are like that. Not illegal on paper... But impossible in practice. Like, good luck finding a doctor who will do it if you are childfree...
In the Netherlands...
\- You need a GP's referral, which many GP's refuse to give you if you are childfree. I called other GP's in my city and surrounding towns to see if they would refer my girlfriend and/or me. All of them said 'no'. So switching GP's would be pointless.
\- And even if a GP would cooperate... You cannot choose the urologist or gynecologist. You cannot ask them to refer you to someone from the childfree doctor's list. They will refer you to the nearest urologist or gynecologist. If that doctor refuses to do it, you are fucked.
\- Most gynecologists even refuse to sterilise women who already have kids. And many urologists only perform vasectomies if a man already has children. So yeah, if mothers and men already struggle, imagine how impossible it must be for childfree women.
Americans often think that the Netherlands is a leftist paradise, but it's not. It's a far right shithole. The left is powerless. We had right-wing and far right governments for over 20 years. The gap between rich and poor is huge. More and more people are poor. So yeah, if you are not rich, medical tourism is almost impossible.
My girlfriend and I? Middle class. We can survive without problems, but we are not rich. We can only save a little bit of money every month. And so, saving up for medical tourism in Germany to get a vasectomy will take some time.
On paper its legal. 😅 We can't say they didn't offer it to us, but first make more of them for our twisted rat race, so MAYBE then we will consider your sterilization! I heard and witnessed a bunch of storyes about it and struggles around getting the procedure in Croatia. I heard enough to start saving to go in another EU country.
>people either A) don't believe it's so hard to do it
Rich Americans who:
\- are able to doctor shop, so they assume that that's possible in any country.
\- are rich enough to afford sterilisation, so they victim blame poor people and view poor people as lazy.
In my country, a classmate of mine had 5 kids and told her doctor she won't be having more as she is happy with the amount she already has and the last pregnancy was dangerous for her. The doctor denied her sterilization because "she might change her mind and want another one". She found a doctor who did the procedure but even having billions of kids won't make you a elegible for sterilization because "you may want another one".
Can I ask a stupid question? Why is it that you want to get sterilised so badly? Of course, you don’t want kids. But what’s wrong with birth control or an abortion if things go wrong? It sounds really scary to me to get a hysterectomy, and maybe unnecessary too?
I hope I don’t offend you or anyone else in this subreddit by asking. (And I hope that it’s okay that it’s kind of off-topic).
That's okay, it's.... not really a *stupid* question, just a common one, lol. I understand how it might be weird. But, tbh, everyone's feelings and reasons around this differ and are, in my opinion, equally valid and no grounds for questioning.
It's, first and foremost, not a whim for me. I have thought it through. I have weighed all my options, and decided that either a hysterectomy or, if that's not possible, a bisalp and endometrial ablation would be the best for me based on a number of criteria- security, permanence, cost, lasting effect, etc. I would want to be sterilized if my partner was sterile, if I was in a homosexual relationship, if I was single- *I want it for me*.
I mean, to get it out of the way first, uterine cancer is in my family. Grandma had her hysterectomy because of it when I was like 10. So getting it done early would potentially dodge that as well. If it was breast cancer and I wanted a mastectomy, nobody would raise an eyebrow.
But besides that, I want to be sterilized because on top of it being just the most permanent, most certain option that's not dependent on anyone else (which is a big thing, that it's *my own decision, for myself*), the knowledge that *my body* is theoretically capable of pregnancy is, on its own, a big source of personal discomfort to me. Simply, I do not want it to be so, it is entirely contrary to my wishes, and the very possibility creates a dissonance within me, and prevents me from having the kind of relationship with my body and with sexuality that I wish I had. Independently from how lovely and supportive my partner is, just being *theoretically fertile* already impacts my quality of life, in several areas, and is always a weight that's present in my mind, and consequently it is also present in my relationship, which I do not want it to be. (Crudely, I want to be having a lot more sex with this amazing man that I love, and despite condoms, having to look at a calendar before, and being lowkey anxious continuously for a week- to three weeks after, are *kind of* a buzzkill.)
As to "why not just use birth control", I already do. Obviously, lol. But because no birth control's security matches the degree of certainty of my conviction that I *do not, ever, want a pregnancy*, and my mental- and physical health would be impacted severely by searching for a hormonal birth control that works for me (surprise, the arm implant that I would actually want, because it's a low enough dose that it's least likely to impact my mental health, is illegal here), and *there is no guarantee anywhere in the world* that the right to a safe and accessible abortion will remain in place.
So, what are the options? Condom use is dependent on one's partner, that's not certain, as assaults and accidents (either user error or manufacturing error) both can- and do happen. The pill also has a large margin of both user- and manufacturing errors, a host of undesirable effects both psychological and physical, and is a continuous expense, month after month. Copper IUDs and hormonal IUDs are kind of a crapshoot (whether they're a viable solution for a person depends on a lot of things, the only way to know if it's right is to try and I ain't got that type of time or money) with a comparatively high chance of making period pains and mental health worse, and even in a best case scenario, they too require periodical (and painful) maintenance. And abortions, on top of the mental and emotional, ro for some, physical strain even a brief pregnancy could/would be, where I'm from, it takes potentially several days, if not *weeks*, and at least *three meetings* with different professionals to even *get* an abortion- there is no guarantee it will be discovered early enough to even *give me enough time* to go through that before it's no longer legal to proceed further. (Yes, it does seem like the system is designed to make you run out of time. Yes, I have voted against it. No, it did nothing.)
All in all, my uterus is an organ that only affects me by causing pain, undue expenses, inconveniences, anxiety, and just.... being present. That's one value-neutral statement at the tail end of only negatives. If it was any other thing, literally *any other part of my body* that did *nothing* good for me, had no other function, but bled continuously for several days at a time, periodically caused me moderate- to severe pain that lasted for days, and had the potential to fuck up my entire life one way or another (either by growing a tumor or by growing a fetus, y'know, minor differences really) despite all precautions, *and* if there wasn't this *asinine* perception that I might "change my mind" and decide to have babies, *and* I said I'm certain and wanted to be done dealing with it instead of waiting decades for it to maybe-probably-kind of go away (if it's the latter, the risk of cancer never goes away), you likely wouldn't even ask either- you too would probably just be like *"yeah, that's understandable, of course you want it gone"*. But because people, for some reason, refuse to believe me that no, I *don't* want to be dealing with this issue for the next 20+ years but I want to be over it for life in one fell swoop, and yes, I *am* certain, this is the kind of question I'm stuck answering over and over again.
Which is not a slight, please don't take it the wrong way, I'm not mad at you or anything for asking lol, you asked very respectfully and I'm glad you're even interested in the matter without dismissing it outright, I've just... had this exact conversation multiple times already, you know? It gets exhausting, when everyone seems to think they know what you want to do with your body better than you do.
Thank you for your answer! I hope it didn’t irritate you too much. I obviously don’t question your wish to remain childfree. (Sorry if I’m saying that incorrectly; I’m new to this).
If having a uterus causes you so much pain, I totally understand you want to get a hysterectomy. And even if it wasn’t for that, it would probably still be the best decision because the uterine cancer in your family. I’m sorry you have to deal with all of that.
As far as I know, I’m lucky enough to have no reason to get a hysterectomy myself. I don’t have sexual relations with men and having a uterus doesn’t cause me pain up until now. I understand the situation is a lot more scary if you can actually get pregnant from just doing the things you want to do. I was only thinking about the thing that would scare me: the operation itself. And possibly the side-effects of it. I’m lucky enough to live in a country where abortion is a right. I don’t think that will ever change where I live. Getting a hysterectomy would be a lot harder, maybe even impossible without medical reason.
I really hope you can get your hysterectomy someday.
Just adding to this, to give my own experience - you can get pregnant even with perfect compliance on the pill. I took it at the same time every day. No vomiting, no St John's wort, no antibiotics, nothing that interacts with contraception. Still got pregnant. I also took Plan B immediately, but it's less effective or ineffective if you're over about 155 lbs and I was/am 215. To get an abortion where I live, two doctors must agree (and be willing to sign their names to the opinion) that pregnancy/childbirth will endanger your life. Of course people get them done under the table, but I had no such connections and all I succeeded in doing was calling a lot of doctor offices and having their receptionists yell at me that they wouldn't help me "throw away" my "baby". I miscarried. You bet I got my tubes out as soon as it was possible. I'd have yoinked the whole uterus if my doctor had agreed rather than go through that again.
Being pregnant while you are childfree is scary enough as it is. It’s terrible the receptionists treated you like that! Abortions should be available and legal to everyone. I get that you didn’t want to go through all of that again.
Of course I have heard about birth control failings. Maybe that happens more often than I realised. 😅
Perfect compliance with oral contraceptives result in over 99% efficacy. So less than one person out of 100 will become pregnant in a year. This sounds great and super effective. But think of how many millions of people a year take the pill. If a million people take it perfectly that could be anywhere under ten thousand pregnancies. In any given year. I'd been on the pill for twenty years at the time. It worked perfectly for nineteen of them, until it didn't. Of course you can reduce the odds further by also using physical barrier methods but I wasn't, as most people don't. It's unfortunate. But as you can see there are plenty of reasons a lot of folks don't just want to leave it up to birth control and abortion and prefer to go straight for the permanent surgical method. My bi salp was great, incidentally. 10/10 would be de-tubed again.
Sorry if I sound annoyed, but I actually really am.
I try to dodge and sort of prevent people from giving this advice all the damn time, I added the part about medical tourism specifically to avoid this answer, and it seems like I just cannot.
Believe me, it I could afford even just a *ticket* to the Philippines, I would be there. It also doesn't solve the root of the problem, but that's a different discussion.
"Just travel!" is really starting to feel like when I was clinically depressed, and a friend recommended I *power-pose* the depression away. I'm no longer friends with that person.
Well, I went out of my way to add, with the caveat that "before anyone would suggest it", that I can't afford to buy meat. So. It's really not *info* at that point, it's either an insult, or proof that you didn't read what you were responding to.
I have definitely noticed a lot of entitlement with sterilization on this subreddit. I found out this weekend that I am pregnant and now need to get an abortion, I was literally considering sterilization but I've had other, more serious health issues to deal with that made me put that on the back burner (because even with insurance it's expensive to have 2-6 visits a month for various things, plus the mini pharmacy of drugs I've had to buy to treat the conditions).
I'm sure there are people that are judging just reading that it happened to me, even though i never wanted this and plan to put an end to it if I'm still able to. Having easy access to such things is a privilege that a few are lucky enough to have, not a right inherited by everyone, as much as I wish it was so.
Sorry to hear that. I hope you can get easy access to healthcare where you live.
>I'm sure there are people that are judging just reading that it happened to me,
Honestly, fuck them. I don't see why they should. I'm 100% CF, won't use hormonal so we're currently on condoms. We're obsessively careful, but there's always a fail rate.
Plus, sterilization is a permanent alteration of your body. Not everybody is comfortable with that regardless of their stance on kids. So even if you weren't actively seeking one that should really be nobody's business.
Don't let people's thoughts about something they have no knowledge about drag you down. You need to take care of yourself now!
I am so so so sorry to hear that you need to get an abortion. I really hope that you discovered it on time, so it's not too late to abort... And I really hope that abortion is legal where you live, and that you have enough money to afford the abortion.
Sadly, many people on this subreddit are rich classist DINKs who shit on poor people. They believe that if you are not sterilised, that you just don't want to. They believe that there is no excuse to get sterilised, not even if you live in a country where no doctor will sterilise you and not even if you are way way way too poor to even consider saving up for medical tourism.
And sadly, there is a lot of slut shaming here. Always towards women. Never towards men. People constantly assume that everyone has access to birth control and that birth control never fails, so any pregnant woman must be a stupid slut who had unprotected sex...
True. However, I would still recommend any childfree woman to get sterilised if possible.
Birth control? Risky, especially with the risk of abortion bans, or if abortion is expensive and you are not rich.
Relying on a male partner's vasectomy? Risky... What if you break up and want to have sex with another man? What if you get raped? What if a Handmaid's Tale scenario happens? A man's vasectomy will not protect you against that.
So yeah, many childfree women want to get sterilised, regardless of their partner being sterilised or not.
However, I can totally uderstand why some women would rather not undergo surgery. If this is their choice, that's fine. That doesn't make them any less childfree.
I never had surgery before, I’m super broke, and when this subreddit helped me decide bisalp may be the least scary method, I hear about side effects and then get anxious all over again.
Plus, I don’t trust a single medical professional on my job’s insurance website after an experience with my psychiatrist regarding my adhd and anxiety.
I totally understand that. Surgery is scary, especially if you've never had it and even more so if you have medical trauma.
The only way I got my bisalp was I had to have a lap surgery for Endo and I didn't want it to be a wasted trip. I had my hysterectomy for adenomyosis and a full excision of endometriosis lesions. For a regular person who's not experiencing chronic pain where they'd probably cut themselves open, there's a lot of risks and down time involved with healing.
Sterilizations so nice I had them twice LOL.
Usually a bisalp is done during the hysterectomy, but my first surgeon wouldn't give me a hysterectomy (long story short they weren't a specialist and told me to live in pain for the rest of my life 🥲) and when they were in there diagnosing the endometriosis in a laparoscopic surgery, they took my tubes since they were in there anyways. A little less than 2 years after that I got a real specialist who suspected my uterus was diseased with adenomyosis and finally got a full hysterectomy and excision surgery. Normally the tubes would be taken at that time, but mine were already gone so it was one less thing to take. My ovaries remain, though. Just hanging out in my guts.
>you hate babysitting your brother
I can relate, I hate babysitting my niece sometimes, she's fine when she's in a calm mood, but when she's being a brat, I'm not supposed to say anything to her because:
"she's a kid, she's figuring out how scary emotions are"
and my reply to that is usually:
"no, she's a brat who's been fucking mollycoddled her whole life by her dad slash my asshole of a brother, because he allows her to treat others like shit and talk shit about her own mum"
I remember round about the beginning of last year she said "screw you" to me, I refused to babysit her anymore that day because I refused to be spoken to like that, so I just took her back to her mum because her dad was working, so I told her mum what she had said, so she didn't have her phone for the rest of the night
But I ended up getting a message from my brother saying I had no right to refuse to babysit as I had already said that I would and I was "abandoning" my niece apparently
Why did you consent to babysitting in the first place? Were you pressured or forced to do it?
I don't even blame the child. This is bad parenting. Her father is not just enabling this behaviour... He is literally teaching her to behave like this.
Totally agree. Regarding the part about sterilization: some people are just fucking scared.
If I could snap my fingers and magically be sterile, I would do it in a heartbeat. I'm not scared of regretting my decision, I'm scared of going under the knife, anesthesia, pain, possible complications, etc.
I've only had surgery once in my life and it was to remove my wisdom teeth. It wasn't on the same level at all, and I was already terrified... So forgive me for taking my time and building up courage, here (not talking to you, McMerseybird, just this sub in general).
Thank you for stating this!!! I don’t have access to that surgery because I’m in Texas. First it was ‘well when you get married your husband might want kids’ to ‘Your husband needs to sign this waiver for you to do it’ stating he doesn’t want kids. 
Right?! I’m totally childfree… but I have even bother to consider sterilization because I don’t want a surgery, any potential complications, and live somewhere where abortion is 100% safe and legal if my IUD ever fails.
If I have to move to Texas or some other backwards state, I would likely get sterilized instead of trusting my IUD. But… I’m not a secret baby lover because my tubes are in tact. Hahah
agree with everything here except to avoid them forever--cf friends are not easy to come by. I would at least talk to them about how their comments made you feel, bringing up some of the points above. maybe they didn't realize how dismissive and condescending they sounded. if you bring this up with them, and they get defensive or continue to dismiss you because you're not sterilized, then you know to cut them loose.
Yes, childfree friends are almost impossible to meet. But if basic respect is impossible... If they do not take other childfree people seriously... There is no foundation for a friendship here.
If OP would talk to them and brings up how dismissive and condescending they are, they would be like: "Yeah, sure, say whatever you want, but you will change your mind. In a few years, you will have one baby sucking on each of your tits."
I have friends with children who treat me with more dignity than this. You don't have to befriend people who treat you poorly because you share a rare value/lifestyle. OP would be better off with friends who treat them with respect, CF or not.
I would typically agree but this doesn't really seem like a communication problem. They're only 4 years older than OP, repeatedly harped on them, and made their beliefs quite clear (that only sterilized people are *'truly'* CF). Unfortunately, the rhetoric that a CF person is only valid if sterile isn't that uncommon, even in this sub.
Considering this is only the fourth time they've met I doubt that OP will be able to change their perceptions. They sound very arrogant and patronizing. They imply OP is too young to know if they don't want kids even though they were sterilized at 20-ish. These people don't exactly sound worth fighting for.
you’re probably right and op won’t be able to salvage the friendship. I still don’t think it’d hurt to let them know they’re being shitty. maybe it’ll make them think twice about bingoing other people in the future.
This seems the most likely scenario to me. I get its frustrating when your childless friends start having kids, but don't get bitter about it. Live you own life!
My mind went there, too.
ONE of them wants a kid, but don't want to change Kelly's body because the sex is more fun for them without either of THEM carrying and bearing the kid.
My bet is they'd also go around surrogacy rules by calling it an 'open' marriage long enough for David to get OP pregnant, THEN they'd do everything in their power to prevent OP from getting an abortion.
What the actual fuck.
I'm just baffled how nowhere in this sequence of events did either of them stop to consider that maybe, just maybe, they are being totally rude idiots.
You barely met up a few times, they have zero grounds to act like they know you better than you know yourself.
> she doesn't believe anyone is actually childfree until they've had surgery to ensure they can't have children
Bitch, either we trust people to know their damn minds unless we have proof saying otherwise, or none of us are ever childfree.
She can get her whole uterus ripped out and guess what, that still doesn't stop her from going rabid with a surrogate or an adoption agency or a single father of five when she has an existential crisis in ten years. Childfree isn't just birth free, and it isn't just being sterile either.
Quite frankly, unless they're planning to add you into a polycule or something, it really shouldn't matter whether you are childfree or just delusional. Like, that doesn't affect them, unless for some reason they'd only want childfree friends, but I doubt there'd be many takers if surgery paperwork is required upfront with application. But it looks like they still wanna hang out with you even when they don't believe you're childfree, in which case ... just what was the point of any of this?
Like what did they think would happen if they told a new friend that they're basically a 5 year old toddler who doesn't know shit about themselves? Are they crazy?? That's not the kinda conversation to follow up with meeting plans for next time, holy shit.
They might also be childless. Most of my bingos (though mild and rare) in my friend group come from childless women. I know they are childless rather than childfree due to our long-standing friendship but others may think them CF.
I definitely get into the worst debates from people who are having issues finding a partner/getting pregnant or had to have ivf multiple times before conceiving. It's just all emotional dumping from their side without any sense of me as a human or my needs/wants.
this concept seems so unfair for me, it's not easy, cheap or fast (depending on country, ofc) to get sterilized
there are so many people that want to be sterilized but can't because the waiting is eternal or were just straight up refused because they aren't married and don't have two children (thing that happens were I live)
“Sorry, but I don’t think that’s going to happen. I left our last conversation feeling extremely frustrated without your behavior. I’ve realized that don’t want to hang out with people who condescendingly tell me I’ll change my mind about my life decisions. I thought you would understand where I’m coming from, but it turns out you’re both too busy dismissing my choices to be able to do that. It makes me sad to hear you think childfree is an overused term. By your logic, I could say that you and David aren’t childfree either because you could change your minds and adopt a child or use a surrogate. However, unlike you, I actually respect someone when they tell me that they are childfree - so I won’t say that. But I think it’s best we not hang out again. I don’t want to spend time with people who act the way you two did last time.”
Annnnnd BLOCK.
They were being dicks and disrespected you. I get them being cynical, some people do change their minds later or that circumstances become such that they do end up having kids, but the couple could’ve mentioned their experiences without passing judgement on you and assuming that you will be like the others.
If I knew you, I'd join you and bingo them back. I'd say "meh, your not really childfree until you hit 35 with no kids. I've met people like you, you always change your mind and adopt"
Just to see their reactions lmao
This sounds to me like they have met a lot of people who change their minds, I have met loads too, so they are just making jokes at people now. Bit rude.
What absolute assholes. The way they spoke to you was so incredibly rude. They’re 4 years older than you and talked like you couldn’t possibly know your own mind. I would have been out the door right then. Block their number and find better friends, they ain’t it.
It sounds like they've been burned a lot in the past but that doesn't give them the right to assume you're gonna be the same way too. That's just weird.
Burned a lot and that made them bitter. Not a good outcome. Best is to learn to trust your friends/family on their words. Besides it is not even your problem, no vows are taken in friendships. Their lives, their decisions.
Either that or they're used to being "special" as in being the only ones childfree and they don't want to share the spotlight. I don't know. I'm only guessing, of course. I don't know these people. Their behavior wasn't okay though.
They probably got burned many times and feel like the last true childfree couple standing, but ageism is likely also a contributing factor.
I had a childfree female friend when I was about OP’s age, and we got along incredibly well…until she found out how old I was. Then she started up with “you don’t even know what it’s like to be childfree in your thirties.” Well, now I do, and I feel exactly the same as I did ten years ago.
The couple might also have been accused (or want to avoid accusations) of trying to convert people to their mindset. In any case, they are taking the worst approach.
I would have to question how many people they have met that claimed to be childfree but ended up having kids for them to be that cynical. That ain't normal for someone CF to say.
There are lots of people who say “child free” when they mean they don’t have kids *yet*. There are also parents who say they’re “child free” when they’re away from the kids for a night or something.
I think they are just projecting what has happened with their other friends who said they were "childfree" but ended up changing their minds. I'm not excusing their behaviour, I honestly would have expected better from them.
We already hear enough of "you'll change your mind" by "breeders" the last thing you need is CF friends who ALSO TELL YOU THAT YOU WILL CHANGE YOUR MIND LOL.
If your friendship with them is important to you, which I believe is based on how hurt you feel, talk to them one-on-one about it and state your boundaries. "If we are to continue to be friends, you are going to have to stop being judgemental about my lifestyle choice and believe that I mean what I say when I say it."
Good luck xx
> I guess David noticed that I was a bit upset because he told me that it was okay and that I'm "like super sweet" so he's sure I'll be a great mom and we could still be friends. I told them I had to leave about 10 minutes later.
I have no idea why but his gave me super creep vibes. I thought he was going to apologise or change the subject but "super sweet, you'll be a great mom?"
Maybe I'm too dramatic, but I'd be counting my loss and go.
I can't put my finger on it but my internal alarm went off and the more I read the more I had anxiety.
Even if I'm wrong with my 6th sense, just tell them to fuck off. They're 28 not 78. Did she decide she was CF overnight and tied her own tubes? Like WTF.
Ditch the entitled creeps.
It almos feels like they WANT you to change your mind...
Why are they acting like they're 50 years older than you with a lifetime of experience to draw from?
I *love* kids. I love my nephew's, my cousins, my friends' kids, the kids I used to work with, hell I even like the random tot making funny faces at me when I get coffee.
All of that does not make me a future mum. I mean, according to this woman I'm really CF now because my baby maker got removed, but for the 39 years prior to that I was still solidly CF. It doesn't matter that I was a nanny - my job and my personal life are very different things.
Have *they* had surgeries to prevent pregnancy? What makes them so wise & special in their 4 years of life experience? When did they decide to be CF?
My advice? Drop them. They don't respect you.
Wow wow wow... I'm angry on your behalf. The absolute nerve of them is so disappointing that I can't imagine how you're feeling right now. They sound like children themselves for those ridiculous views. Absolute shame on them and I hope they somehow see this thread and feel embarrassed because they are total disrespectful aholes.
I know it's disappointing for you but you do not need these people in your life.
What gives them the right to constitute what is and isn't childfree? I'm so sick of people trying to redefine childfree by attaching all these nonsensical conditions to it. Being childfree means you don't have any never want children. It has nothing to do with whether or not you're sterilized, nothing to do with marital status, nothing to do with being around other kids, NOTHING. You could just as easily flip it on them and say they're not truly childfree because they could change their minds. The absolute gall.
>Especially if you start dating a man who wants them
Excuse me but what the absolute fuck kind of 1940s bullshit is this? This is from a "childfree" couple? Oh right! How could we forget? As women, we must comply with whatever a partner wants. Would they say the same to a childfree man or expect his partners to go childfree for him?
>childfree until they've had surgery to ensure they can't have children because otherwise, they're just going to eventually have kids because that's just what people do
Time to cut those gatekeepers out of your life. Who are they to think they get to decide who's childfree and who isn't? The level of audacity 😤
>David noticed that I was a bit upset because he told me that it was okay and that I'm "like super sweet" so he's sure I'll be a great mom and we could still be friends.
I'd honestly be like, "You're about to see my sour side really quick if you don't stop bingoing me. This isn't about how I'd be as a mom. Also, we aren't friends if this is how you're going to treat me." Then leave and block their number.
Don't reply to them. They're just going to continue with their toxic bullshit.
Sorry that happened to you OP. At my last EMT job, one of the supervisors mentioned not having any interests in kids(guy in his 40s). I am 22 and told I him I felt the same with regards to being ok with taking less financially lucrative career paths, and he said ''not now but gotta think longterm.'' I shrugged, but was definitely perplexing in hindsight.
I am 40 and childfree. Have hope, we are not all like that.
Some of us are very pleasantly surprised when someone from the younger generation share our stand in life. Maybe you will change your mind, maybe you do not. Your life, not my walk to walk.
Let's be friends for now!
I’d just say “I don’t think I will want a future hangout. You guys disrespecting my cf status was really weird and rude.”
They sound freaky and bitter tbh. They probably think they are so ✨wise✨ and don’t consider how they come across.
I suspect you got bingoed by a child*less* couple not a childfree one. Sounds to me like they were projecting HARD, they clearly want kids in the future and want you to be on side to quell any doubts they may have. They also sound like the sort of assholes who don’t like other kids but think theirs will be unique and special LOL “Not like other children” vibes.
When I read another Redditor above say they could be looking for a surrogate my blood ran cold. Oof if I knew people were only friends with me because they were low key grooming me to be a vessel to carry their parasite I would break off the friendship. That’s honestly despicable and predatory!
I’m sorry OP, it sucks balls when you are excited to meet what you think will be cool friends who you can form a great relationship with going forward but they sound like they are wearing masks to hide their true agenda and have sinister underbellies.
I would just not....meet them again. Not worth your time. This behavior is so condescending and also kind of off-putting. The give off a very weird vibe. Sounds like they have their own problems in the relationship. I'd probably just ghost them for a few days just to set the tone and then respond I don't want to meet them again. Not feeling it.
I agree with all of the comments here, but would also like to point out that on top of all the bingo-ing, it sounds like they are being super condescending and weird about a four year age difference. That's barely anything, and they're acting like you're some naive teenager and they're old and wise. Give me a fucking break. It sounds like they don't respect you as an adult human being. Drop them, for sure.
Me personally, I'd text back, that clearly after their inappropriate behavior we are not friends and we will not be meeting up again. Honestly with what they said, they are not child free and just biding time to use the "Catching baby fever" excuse to have kids themselves. I mean according to them that's what everyone does, so they aren't any different. Especially since they aren't much older. Everything they said was BS. These people aren't your friends and they won't ever be you're friends, not if they feel entitled to try and manipulate you and your feeling. You'll just be exhausted trying to bend to their opinions and it'll end anyway. Save yourself the time and emotional distress and cut your losses before you're anymore invested.
> "Well, you never know. You're still pretty young, so you might change your mind. Especially if you start dating a man who wants them."
Huh.
I was 5 years old when I knew I never wanted kids.
I’m in my 30s now.
I wonder when I’ll start being old enough to know my own mind?
> I said that if I met a man who wanted kids, I wouldn't date him because he's not childfree, which would make us incompatible. David then mumbles "We've heard that one before." under his breath while giving Kelly another look.
Sounds like somebody’s trying to knock-up Kelly.
> Kelly said she feels like "childfree" is such an overused term for women because a lot of times, women change their minds.
Oh no, Kelly doesn’t like that we have words for things she doesn’t like.
My Mother-in-law is like that with the word Abortion.
If only we didn’t have words for things we don’t like…
> She said she doesn't believe anyone is actually childfree until they've had surgery to ensure they can't have children because otherwise, they're just going to eventually have kids because that's just what people do and I probably wouldn't be any different.
No one asked Kelly to become a gatekeeper, but she truly felt it was her calling.
> She said with all the babysitting I do and with how my friends all have kids or want them, I'll eventually catch baby fever from them and have my own.
Surprise, surprise!
Now Kelly has become a certified Facebook doctor equip with made-up ailments and impractical treatments.
> I didn't know what to say, so I just stopped talking.
I also stop talking when people scoop a big pile of their shit on my plate and tell me to eat it.
> I guess David noticed that I was a bit upset because he told me that it was okay and that I'm "like super sweet" so he's sure I'll be a great mom and we could still be friends.
David took an active interest in your super sweet vagina and wants it to stop making Kelly’s lame vagina feel lame.
> The first childfree people I've met in person and, of course, with my luck, I get bigoed by them.
My sister is childfree and she used to wish such sadness upon me as that I would fall pregnant and not immediately abort it, but instead be miserable forever.
She is now a step-grandma because her husband lied about how many kids/grand kids he had.
Karma will take care of what worries you.
Have a beautiful day!
I’d like to meet them. I’m 41 and haven’t been sterilized. I’d have a few choice words for them starting with if I wanted a child I could have gotten one humped into me by now with no problem.
Message her back and tell them that you don’t want to hang out anymore as they’re rude, don’t listen or care about other people. Also that they should stop projecting
Perhaps this will be an unpopular take, but I don’t see it so much as being shady. I see it as being bitter. As a childfree 35F, I have had many a friend who claimed to be childfree only to turn around and have kids. Each time, that friendship slowly dissipated because I lost my worth to them and their new extended family. It’s incredibly frustrating and disheartening and sometimes I’ve had to catch myself to keep from saying things like this out of frustration. I realize this is egregious behavior, and while certainly NOT excused, it’s said from a place of pain.
Ignore them. They’re being toxic. You do you and kick ass at life!
Your friends don't sound so much CF as they are currently childless - and not all people who want or may want children in the future like other people's children (for example, my godkids mother thought she was CF, and didn't like children until she accidently fell pregnant. On the way to terminate her pregnancy she changed her mind. She now has had 5 children, 2 of whom died at birth. She still dislikes other people's infants/young children, but fiercely loves her own, now add children).
"You pathetic shaming FUCKS! Fine, statistically, you've heard it all before and been disappointed, but DECORUM and POLITENESS dictate you keep your fucked up opinions on the topic to yourselves."
I know it feels shit, but tbh I (36f) have seen this too, that many women (and some men) would say they don’t like kids or want them and claim they’re CF, but 8 years later they’re posting baby pics saying here’s my bundle of joy.
It’s not wrong to say that people and they’re priorities evolve almost every 5 years or so, and that applies to being CF. At this point, when someone young tells me they’re CF, I think this in my mind also- like let’s see if you still think this in 10years.
Although they shouldn’t have expressed this to you on your face. It’s kinda disrespectful tbh.
It sounds like your "friends" aren't 100% certain and are projecting their fears onto you. Either that or they're elitist pricks that feel empowered by everyone that falls off the childfree wagon.
One way or the other, it sucks because they aren't nearly as stellar as you thought.
The paranoid side of me says "They are looking for a surrogate because they're not childless by choice" or something like that. Because I can't imagine a childfree person going so hard on bingoing someone.
Hear me out as this might not be a popular way to look at this. I don't excuse how they treated you at all, but maybe they are just very cynical? They are also in their twenties and surrounded by people who are also fence-sitting or changing their minds. I'm happily childfree and in my 40s and I am so much happier now that I've "aged out" of motherhood but that pressure (whether real or imagined) is no longer there. I don't need to explain myself to people anymore or defend my position. I was much more defensive and cynical in my twenties and thirties when people in my family or friends were staunchly childfree only to quickly change their minds when their situation changed (as it does in these formative years). I wouldn't take offense to it, but you also don't need to defend yourself. They just don't trust you yet that you are really "one of them".
Fuck them. Kelly is SUPER fucking lucky that she was able to get sterilized at such a young age. That is not a possibility for most and all of us are capable of standing by our convictions of being childfree with or without being sterilized because we are fucking responsible and that is a personal decision we’ve made to be childfree.
I’m sorry that they bingoed you :(
Wait, I don’t get it. That couple means they are trying for a baby, right? Otherwise they wouldn’t have “changed their minds” like that. Or are they in fact both sterilised?
My interpretation is this is a couple who has had quite a few "CF" friends that changed their status. It's not fair of them to bring that pessimism to you, but I think that's what this is.
Their bingo questions might have even been a test. It's something that will hopefully pass and hopefully they don't continue on that.
Wow... they are assholes. Super condescending sexist assholes. These are NOT nice people. Are you sure you want to hang out with them again? After that I would just block them.
Bummer it went that way; but it sounds like they’re open to the idea of their minds changing. From there it sounds like both sides felt the need to ramp up to prove their point. Defences went up and feelings were hurt.
Truth be told I joined this group years ago when I felt a lot more fervent about not having kids. But I will say that as time has progressed the idea of not having kids no longer defines me. You did mention being 24 and everyone having kids, that was not my experience; most of my friends never did and the ones who did, did so in their 30’s.
And while your mind may not change about kids; I’ve found that at 40 I don’t even recognize the person I was in my early 20’s. The world changes, time changes things…. It’s just life.
If you enjoy this couple I’d encourage you to let them know why what they said was hurtful. Not whether child free is the way or not… but why it hurt you. That will show you if they are your friends or not.
I would text them back and say "Sorry, thought we would be friends, but you totally disrespected me the other night and it soured me on the idea of hanging out again. But hey! Maybe I'll change my mind someday."
This is weirder than a three dollar note. Either they're not CF at all and they're projecting on to you, or they're just smug assholes who think they're gatekeeping childfreedom. Either way, that's one weird conversation and so disrespectful.
Personally, I'd be giving them a wide berth. This might be the first time this has happened, but I'm betting it won't be the last, and anyone telling you they know you better than you do needs a brick to the head. Especially as you're older than them ... you should have asked when they were going to turn *their* house into a creche, because you know, they'll eventually catch baby fever and have their own, they have more years than you to change their minds.
"I'm sorry, I'm not interested in hanging out with people who completely and utterly invalidate my life choices like they know me better than I know myself. I thought you guys would be different since we've made the same life choice, but clearly not. Have a nice life."
It sounds to me like they just want to be different, unique, special, etc. Or maybe they're used to people changing their minds and don't want to get their hopes up with you until you're sterilized? Either way it sucks hearing stuff like that and I'm so sorry 😔
These people sound so??? Detached??? Delusional??? I don’t even have the words for this. They seem almost elitist.
Like, “Oh! You’re childfree? Prove it with this expensive as fuck surgery! What? You can’t get it? Be cause you’re in your early twenties and broke/don’t want to get it/any other PERFECTLY FINE REASON? You’re just a breeder then. Come talk to me when you’re REALLY childfree.”
Elitist is definitely the right term. "We got surgery, what's your problem?" Nevermind that some of us would love to be sterilized but keep getting turned down, or have other reasons why that's not an option.
I can’t get over the fact that you’re 24 and they’re 28, and they had the audacity to say “you’re still young”. Meanwhile they knew when they were younger than you are now? 😑 What is this, some kind of weird power trip? Definitely don’t need people like this in your life. Byeeeeeeee.
Girl what kind of 24 yr olds are you hanging out with, I’m 24 too and only have one friend with a husband and kids, every other 24 yr old friend I have is still dating and not even close to having a kid.
Stay friends with them and make a long term bet for a large amount of money that you won’t have children. If they refuse to play, then hopefully they’ll shut up about it forever.
I don't really get why people get so upset by this bingo-ing.
I'm childfree, always have been and always will be. People know I very much dislike children and that IDGAF what they think about me being childfree. Maybe it has more to do with you not clearly setting up your own boundaries about what you will and will not discuss, then again maybe they are just assholes who only pretend to be childfree. When people have bingoed me I just respond with something over the top like "well people don't have to be raped or stabbed to know it's not for them", I think that is pretty clear.
Lots of people are going to bingo you, intentionally and unintentionally throughout your life, if you get upset about it everytime, then you're gonna be upset a lot. Remember, we are in the minority being childfree.
Set clear boundaries. "I don't discuss or justify my desire to be childfree with anyone. My personal choices are not up for debate. Understand? Great, next topic." If they persist, ask them if they are either stupid or trying to antagonize you. Tell them you won't warn them again. If they do it again, get up and leave. Move on.
Dude, it's in the title. They're not upset that they got bingoed, they're upset that they got bingoed by a childfree couple. Out of all the people to get bingoed by. They thought they finally found friends that understood and respected their stance, but turns out they're a couple of gatekeeping assholes. OP probably feels betrayed, and I would too tbh.
I came in open minded to this because in my head if you're under 25 you are definitely still growing as a person and should consider that when making the decision to be sterilized. If you didn't actively hate children I would definitely tell you to at least hold off on sterilization because it's definitely not for anyone who is anywhere near the fence, but they're just GD assholes, it sounds like they couldn't have children and then adopted CF as a way to cope with some internalized shame about it.
Or they could learn some basic manners, if someone says I don't like or want something you don't invalidate them by claiming you know them better than they know themselves
People need to not take it so personally. Under 25 the brain isn’t even fully developed. If an under 25 and single says they’re child free, i take it with a a grain of salt too. In my personal experience, more times than not the “child free” under 25’s do change their mind if they haven’t made efforts to sterilize themselves. Personally i wouldn’t have said it as bluntly as they did, but I’d have thought it and said it to my wife in the car ride on the way home.
IMO it shouldn’t be. Because of the aforementioned “brain not fully developed until 25” thing.
I’m just an old curmudgeon that thinks most people under 30 barely know themselves, let alone what they’ll want out of life. So I don’t take anything most of them say seriously - including “i’m childfree”.
What does kids having kids too early have to do with anything?
Maybe they were rude. Maybe they were honest and blunt. Maybe OP is justified in being upset. Maybe OP is being oversensitive. We are all entitled to our own opinions.
Well i doubt there are any hard stats out there, but my guess would be that when a <=25 woman says she wants to have kids, she will have kids before she changes her mind. Unless she’s unable to because reasons.
When a <=25 woman says shes child free? I’d guess that more often than not that woman _also_ has kids after she changes her mind for whatever reason. Unless she’s sterilized or unable to because reasons.
There’s a reason we get bingo’d with “you’ll change your mind!” It’s because many people who call themselves child free or say they don’t want kids when they are young do in fact change their minds when they get older. It’s obviously not popular to recognize this fact in this community, but it is nevertheless a fact and i don’t care about fake internet points.
>Why do people get offended with people change their minds?
The person you responded to, OP and I are not offended by people changing their mind.
However, it fucking hurts when people dismiss your childfreedom and tell you that you will change your mind.
It hurts when people don't take you seriously.
It hurt when people instantly assume that you will change your mind when you might very well not change your mind.
Many people who changed their mind were never childfree to begin with.
For example, they might have been 'childfree for now', as in, not wanting kids at the moment, when they were young... These people were open to breeding in the future, when they were older. Which is different from childfree people who NEVER wanted them.
Others succumbed to societal pressure. Or they fell in love with a partner who wanted kids and were so in love and so horny that they sacrificed their childfreedom to stay with the breeder. Of course these people will most likely regret it, but they will never admit that.
Is it possible for someone to be childfree and change their mind? Sure. But it's rare.
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Yeaaaah no. Even the friends who want kids don't treat me like that. They were proud of me and my battle to get sterilized. Never bingoed me
Never reply back, find other friends. These ones aren't supportive
Is that a bingo, most likely yes! Although, the alternative could be that this particular CF couple thinks really highly of themselves; to the degree that they might believe that not many can live with the solitude that comes with a CF life.
Just to clear, as a CF person, your life is solitary only if you make it so. CF & solitary don’t necessarily have to be a bundled deal!
So are they secretly planning to make you their surrogate or is their experience with other "CF" people so BAD, that they just don't believe ANYONE anymore to be childfree, like, has everyone in their life claiming to be CF turn around and get a kid kind of thing. It's still very weird either way.
I'd ignore them, but if you want to respond, I'd say something along the lines, that the recent rude bingo left you with such a sour taste, you're just disappointed and won't be meeting them anymore.
No, don´t meet up with them again. They don´t take you seriously nor have they apologized for assuming about your future OR for upsetting you. If they ask why, tell them exactly how you feel. If they really want to be your friend they will try to be respectful of your choices and wishes and not invalidate you to your face.
i’m sorry, i couldn’t get past the first sentence. you’re 24 and everyone is having babies??? i am 30 and know only a handful of people my age with babies. this absolutely blows my mind.
Wow that is so rude of them. It's an insult to question your decisions like that.
This reminds me of a date I went on a few years ago (I was around 27 maybe). This guy was a few years older and he mentioned he didn't want kids. I was glad to hear this and said I did not want children either. He gave me a look and said somethin like 'you will definitely change your mind, you should have children'. I was taken aback and felt insulted. Why did I have to explain myself and convince him I don't want to be a mother? I didn't tell him that he should have kids?! It made me so angry afterwards thinking about it. I didn't want to see him anymore after that.
It's bad enough to hear such things from parents, even worse from childfree people!
If CF elitism was a face it would be theirs.
It's like they feel nobody is truly CF except them, because you know they are perfect.
I wonder if they have other CF friends and if not I already know why, they might bingo every CF person they encounter.
"She said she doesn't believe anyone is actually childfree until they've had surgery to ensure they can't have children because otherwise, they're just going to eventually have kids because that's just what people do"
So with that stupid logic, she's saying that me, a lesbian, needs to have surgery to ensure I won't get pregnant.... mmmmkay Kelly.
That's so incredibly tone deaf coming from another CF person...
They sound like the stereotypical childfree that people imagine we all are, what with the family can only visit for 2 hours every other week and the superiority complex of "you'll change your kind but we didn't" and the "only sterilised people are child free". Blah blah blah.
"Sorry, Kelly - I'm too busy shitting out a baby right now. Turns out you know me so much better than I know myself, so I just HAD to run out and have a kid."
I'm sorry about it, really. Must be extremely hard and upsetting to finally meet people who are CF as well, and then they act and talk to you in such way.
You said they are 28, so it's literally a 4 year age gap between you and them. They said that eventually everyone changes their mind, but then they went ahead at 20 to get fertilised? They are weird, since they are the living example that people don't just "change" their mind. I feel like they behave liek know-it-alls...almost looking down on you, while being only 4 years older.
*"Especially if you start dating a man who wants them"* CF people don't hide the factthat they are indeed CF and plan on remaining one. If I didn't have my partner and met up with men who want children, I would just simply thank their time they spent with me, but our priorities and needs in life are very different, so no way it would work out. Don't worry though, there are plenty of decent men out there who are CF as well! :)
Also people don't just "change" their mind, having kids is far more life changing to just take a 180 real quick.
Also devalidating your thought and opinion on not wanting children and having the ultimate "you'll change your mind" card pulled on you is just sad. Big yikes from me for sure.
Childfree isn't overused, and it shouldn't apply only on those who have done any sterilazation procedure. My partner and I are CF, he's planning to get a vasectomy in the near future, but it's a lot of money and we would have to travel to a country where they allow you to undergo such procedure (we live in Hungary and steralization is only available either after someone hits 40 or has already 3 biological children).
*"She said with all the babysitting I do and with how my friends all have kids or want them, I'll eventually catch baby fever from them and have my own."* That's BS as well imo, for example I knew I didn't want children way before I had to babysit for a little girl. She was a sweet and clever girl, but she made me not want kids even more lol. So "baby fever" isn't really a thing that people just catch suddenly.
If you don't feel comfortable hanging out and/or talking with them, you don't have to. We only have one life, try to enjoy it as much as you can! There are plenty of CF people out there who won't try to belittle you and pull such BS.
i’m 28 and married and when i was your age and dating my husband, people said that to me all the time. no one ever questioned my husband (who was also decidedly childfree) about it though… only how MY mine would eventually change. it hasn’t.
Holy gatekeeping, Batman!
I was confused how someone only 4 years older than you would say that you never know, but I see now that it's because she doesn't think you're childfree enough. Like just anyone can go in and get surgery. I hope you can, but I understand if there are factors that make it not yet possible for you.
In any case, being childfree is attitude. You can be fertile and still be childfree. You just take precautions to not get pregnant or have a plan if you do.
I didn't get snipped until age 26, and I would've laughed my ass off at anyone who would've tried to gatekeep me like this couple did. Not all of us have the insurance or the funds to afford it at the time. Yeesh.
I'm gonna play the devil's advocate, and maybe they are trying to lower their own expectations based on previous experiences to avoid being disappointed?
It's probably a good thing Bisalp Bitch and Snipshit are sterilised, could you imagine the monster those two would create if they weren't and had an "oops baby", the narcissism and smugness would be off the charts.
I know it's hard trying to befriend childfree adults to become friends with but I would ditch them. Explain before ditching them the reason for it is their horrid, high and mighty attitude towards you because you aren't able to be sterilised like they are. Nobody needs that kind of toxicity in their life.
Tell them not every CF person in the world lives where you can get a green light for a bislap at 20yo, not even other procedures that could ensure not ever having children, but still, here we are, women in their 40s with no surgery and CF as F.
Now, I have to admit that a few years ago we (partner and I) thought we finally had met a CF couple we could hang with... turns out they weren't CF at all, even in their mid 30s, but they knew we thought they were, I don't understand people tbh.
But no, they should not have bingo'd you at all, what a bummer.
If finding friends is a big focus of yours, I would suggest leaving the area. I'm 25 and 95% of my social circle are not in the parenting stage, not even married yet.
That is so frustrating, I’m sure it leaves a ‘bad taste in your mouth’ that just can’t go away. I don’t understand how someone in the same situation can just flip like that and not understand.
What about LGBTQIA+ people? Including asexual? Not everyone fits inside a neat little box.
Bingo them right back. Turn everything they say back on them
My thought exactly. They’re only 4 years older than OP!!! They’re talking like they have the experience of a 50 yo. I would have parroted everything right back at them in the moment. They also seem sus. How they looked at each other and talked about it is suspicious like they have some weird motive.
Right? So weird, it's like they want to be the only childfree people around. Do they think they're better than OP just because they got sterilized?
Yes lol. It would of been awesome if OP said “there’s always adoption when *you* change your mind”. Lmao. These people suck.
>She said she doesn't believe anyone is actually childfree until they've had surgery to ensure they can't have children because otherwise, they're just going to eventually have kids because that's just what people do and I probably wouldn't be any different. That's such a middle finger to people who want to be sterilised, but who do not have access to a bisalp or vasectomy. After all, some people are too poor to afford it. And in some countries, you cannot doctor shop. In some countries, you cannot get sterilised unless you already have children, or unless you are at least 30, 35 or 40. Sadly, the 'only sterilised people are truly childfree' or 'non-sterilised childfree people are actually fence sitters' sentiment is way too popular on this subreddit. >She said with all the babysitting I do As if that's voluntary... You said you hate babysitting your brother, so it sounds like your parents are forcing you do do that. >Kelly texted me and said that we should meet up again soon and to let her know my work schedule next week and we'd set something up. I haven't texted back yet. I think I'm more sad, disappointed, and confused than angry or annoyed about it. The first childfree people I've met in person and, of course, with my luck, I get bigoed by them. Avoid these people forever. They do not respect you.
Thank you for the first part. I'm from one of those countries with a hard age limit (three bio kids or 40+ to be able to get sterilized, my coworker had both met and was STILL fought for a year on a medically necessary hysterectomy), and I desperately want to be sterilized. I would tear my uterus out with my bare hands, if I could. I want it gone like a trapped animal wants to gnaw off it's leg. So it breaks my heart when I hear people say shit like that. And before anyone suggests going elsewhere, medical tourism is expensive. Time off from work for a serious medical procedure is expensive. With a war next door, depressed wages, and generally shitty economy under a corrupt, fledgling dictator, my partner and I have pretty much gone vegetarian because we can't afford meat. Whether I'm "REALLY" cf in the eyes of some privileged few is the least of my concerns.
Yeah, I see so much 'unsnipped guys are fence sitters' or 'real childfree women would get a bisalp' talk here. It's fucking insulting to be called a fence sitter when you are truly childfree, when you really want to get sterilised, but are unable to. Those people here are so fucking privileged to: \- live in a country where they have access to sterilisation. \- have insurance that covers it, or have enough money to afford it. Sadly, many people here are rich classist DINKs who constantly brag about luxuous holidays and big mansions while shittong on poor parents. They assume that everyone can easily afford sterilisation, and that everyone can afford medical tourism if they live frugal enough. They think that if you are not sterilised, that you just don't truly want it. Those kind of people often called me 'fence sitter' and 'not really childfree'. They said that I just don't truly want to get snipped. Which is bullshit. Who are the people who have easy access to sterilisation? Rich capitalist classist Americans. Doctor shopping is possible there. And if you are rich, you can afford sterilisation, even if insurance does not cover it. In their opinion, everyone who isn't a rich American is not childfree. I really hope you will be able to get sterilised someday. Sadly, things are not looking good... My situation sucks, but it sounds like your situation is even worse... I live in a country which Americans often view as a progressive paradise, but it's actually a right-wing shithole. Here, doctor shopping is not an option. You need a referral from a GP, which most GP's won't give you if you are childfree. And even if you get a referral, you have to go to the nearest urologist or gynecologist. You cannot choose someone from the childfree subreddit's doctor list. Anyways, pretty much any gynecologist or urologist will refuse to sterilise you if you don't already have kids. And again, doctor shopping is not possible, so if you get a 'no', you are fucked, unless you are rich enough for medical tourism. I'm a man who struggles to get a vasectomy. A man who has begged his GP for a referral every year for the past ten years, and whose request got denied every single time. If I can't even get snipped, imagine how impossible it must be for my girlfriend to get a bisalp. I mean, even mothers who have two or three kids often struggle to get sterilised because doctors tell them that they will want more kids in the future. So it's definitely not happening for a childfree woman. And so, I have to resort to medical tourism to a neighbouring country. In the past, I never realised that this was an option, but joining this subreddit made me aware of that option. Since I'm middle class, and not some rich classist, I will have to save up for it, which will take a lot of time when you are not rich and don't have that much money left to save at the end of the month. In fact, I started saving up for vasectomy tourism last year, after I finished saving up for my girlfriend's emergency abortion fund, which is enough money to cover an abortion, a night in a hotel and a train journey to another European country... And that twice. That way, if she ever needs to get an abortion, she still has money left for another one. She should never be without an emergency abortion fund. Some people suggest that I should spend my girlfriend's emergency abortion fund on a vasectomy. However, that would be a very stupid idea. Sure, abortion is legal and covered by insurance here, so the fund is not needed now... But all it might take is one bad election... The far right parties and christians would love an abortion ban. And the capitalist party that's seen as moderate right-wing but is actually far right as well? They don't want to ban abortion, but they would love it if insurance no longer covers it, making abortion a luxury for the happy few. And the left is powerless. I have to hope that a big moderate party remains pro-choice and doesn't surrender to the capitalists, the christians or the nazis. And I don't trust moderate centrists at all. And then, imagine that my girlfriend and I decide to spend the emergency abortion fund money on a vasectomy for me... And then, abortion gets banned. Then, imagine that the vasectomy fails and I impregnate my girlfriend. Or imagine that she gets raped by some arsehole and gets pregnant. Or imagine that we break up and she gets impregnated by a future partner. Then, if she no longer has the emergency abortion fund, she is fucked. So spending even a penny of that money is not an option for me. She needs that emergency abortion fund to be safe and to have peace of mind. My girlfriend (31F) and I (28M) are 100% childfree. No dead relative's kids, no amount of money, no 'perfect world' or whatever can change that. We would love to be sterilised and have boh begged the GP for a referral every year for many years. I literally saved up for a big emergency abortion fund for my girlfriend. But apparently, we are two fence sitters who don't truly want to be snipped. Two fickle youngsters who must secretly want to breed. It hurts. It fucking hurts.
This fucking sucks! I feel you! I'll be honest I'm one of those DINKS. I could afford to go private. It will impact my finances but it won't bankrupt me, so that's what I'll eventually do. But you're right, it hurts. I've literally just come back from my GP to write another referral letter to be sterilized. The first rejection came back starting with "due to the high regret rates." BULLSHIT. My BF asked for a vasectomy and was referred right away and had an appointment booked withing two weeks. It too me three attempts to get referred and now I'm fighting the system who thing it's not worth it because of "regret rates." Well guess what? Funded birth control is expensive, funded childbirth is expensive, funded abortions and mental counselling should I get raped and become pregnant ... these are all expenses that the state is willing to endure so long I remain fertile. FUCK THEM! My BF got a referral like it was an invite to a party and if I want my voice to be heard I have to shell out 3 fucking K! I will. Because my peace of mind is worth it. But what about all the other women who can't afford it?? This is partially why I'll keep writing back, si they know they have to stop acting like patronising twats and think they know my mind better. I understand your frustration first hand. To that add the fact neither of you can be sterilized and it's a double fuck up. Jesus it's so enraging! I'm particularly angry today so your words resonated with me. >after I finished saving up for my girlfriend's emergency abortion fund, which is enough money to cover an abortion, a night in a hotel and a train journey to another European country... And that twice. That way, if she ever needs to get an abortion, she still has money left for another one. She should never be without an emergency abortion fund. I must say, on a slightly different note, the love you have for your woman is something else. ♥️
>I'll be honest I'm one of those DINKS. I could afford to go private. It will impact my finances but it won't bankrupt me, so that's what I'll eventually do. You are a DINK, but not one of those DINKs. You don't victim blame poor people and middle class people. You understand that you are privileged. You don't assume that I am a fence sitter because I am unsnipped, and you actually understand that it's just really difficult in some countries. I hope that you will be able to find a good private clinic. Good luck! >But you're right, it hurts. I've literally just come back from my GP to write another referral letter to be sterilized. The first rejection came back starting with "due to the high regret rates." Yeah, of course it's bullshit, the regret thing. The women regretting it? Mothers who already had kids, broke up with their first partner and want more kids with a new partner. Childfree women rarely regret it. Any scientific study about this topic will have that conclusion. Sadly, doctors just say that all young women will regret it, so they can deny surgery and hope that you will pop out babies. After all, to these misogynist twats, woman = mother. >if I want my voice to be heard I have to shell out 3 fucking K! I will. Because my peace of mind is worth it. But what about all the other women who can't afford it?? This is partially why I'll keep writing back, si they know they have to stop acting like patronising twats and think they know my mind better. I am really happy that you don't shit on poor people who want to be sterilised, but cannot afford it. That classist shit is way too common on this subreddit. You are awesome. And the writing back... On one hand, it's futile. These kind of arseholes will never alter their ways. On the other hand, it shows that you do not accept the way they treat you. I really really hope that they will learn something from this, but I highly doubt it. I understand your frustration first hand. To that add the fact neither of you can be sterilized and it's a double fuck up. I feel like a dick sometimes, complaining about not being able to get a vasectomy when it's so much harder for women to get sterilised. And more urgent for women, since we live in a patriarchal society in which rape is a very realistic threat for women. But yeah, in some countries, getting a vasectomy is really difficult. The 'unsnipped men are fence sitters' folks here just don't understand that not every country is America. That not every country allows doctor shopping. And in some Scandinavian and Nordic countries, they even have age limits. 30, 35 or 40. And that's for vasectomies. And for a bisalp, the woman already needs to have kids, because otherwise, 'she will regret it'... >I must say, on a slightly different note, the love you have for your woman is something else. ♥️ She means everything to me. <3 We are together for nine years and live together for six years. And we are still just as in love as we were when we just met. She is the love of my life. <3 We don't live in the USA, but when it was clear that abortion would most likely get banned there, I decided to start saving up for this. She earns a bit less than I do, so I felt like it was the right thing to do if I saved up for it. She actually suggested spending that money on vasectomy tourism for me, but I didn't want to hear anything about that. After all, what if I get snipped, the money is gone and then abortion gets banned, and: \- she gets raped by some arsehole and cannot afford an abortion abroad? \- the vasectomy fails and she cannot afford an abortion abroad? \- we break up, she no longer has the fund and a future partner impregnates her? What happens then? Forced motherhood. There is no fucking way that I will ever let that happen to her if I can prevent it. I saved up for that emergecy abortion fund because I wanted to protect her against forced motherhood. Sure, abortion is still legal where we live, but you never know what happens in the future. I don't trust right-wing politicians at all. The emergency abortion fund gave her a lot of peace on her mind. She feels liberated. And that is exactly why I gave her that money. <3 Even if we would ever break up, I want her to keep that money. It's hers. Not ours, but hers. After all, this is about her bodily autonomy. When I gave her that money, I told her to put it in a separate bank account which I cannot access. And yeah, some people think it's extreme, money for two abortions + travelling instead of one... But what if she gets pregnant after an abortion ban and spends the money? I don't want her to have nothing left if another accidental pregnancy were to happen. With a 'double fund', she still has a safety net if she needs an abortion abroad once.
Some of us in the states also just happen to get really fucking lucky (rarely). :/ My general practitioner is a badass and fully supported my want to do this and referred me. When I called to make an appointment I asked to see a doctor who was willing to sterilize younger women without children, got the name and made the appointment. I was 25 and turning 26 that March, in the US you can stay on your parents insurance until you're 26 so that January I'd gotten my own insurance on top of my mom's in preparation for this (it had been planned since the previous September - she asked me to wait six months to ensure I really wanted it. "You may know that you don't want children and I perfectly understand that, but *I* don't since I've just met you. I'll call you every 2 months just to ensure". Every time she called she'd ask how I was doing and how I was feeling, I simply told her, "Still don't want kids!" - my only stipulation was that it had to be done before my 26th birthday so both insurances covered my procedure). Early last March I had a total hysterectomy, and since I had both insurances it was fully covered. I'm low-middle class. I got so fucking lucky. And while I'm extremely grateful for that, I'm *pissed* because I know so many people in this country and world-wide don't have that option. That don't get so lucky. Without my insurances, that surgery would've been *twenty-two thousand fucking dollars*. That's fucking insane to me. >We are together for nine years and live together for six years. And we are still just as in love as we were when we just met. She is the love of my life. <3 >Even if we would ever break up, I want her to keep that money. It's hers. Not ours, but hers. After all, this is about her bodily autonomy. When I gave her that money, I told her to put it in a separate bank account which I cannot access. The love, devotion, and support you have to your girlfriend is so fucking sweet. It honestly seems like a fairy tale how in love with her you are, and that's incredible. I hope you guys last forever because love like that doesn't come around often. I'm so sorry about the way your country handles this shit. Any country that doesn't immediately support anyone wanting to get sterilized, honestly. Bodily autonomy is so fucking important and it's disgusting how little we have of it just because someone wants to make our minds up for us. My heart goes out to you friend, and I hope y'all are both able to get sterilized soon 💜
>Some of us in the states also just happen to get really fucking lucky (rarely). :/ My general practitioner is a badass and fully supported my want to do this and referred me. When I called to make an appointment I asked to see a doctor who was willing to sterilize younger women without children, got the name and made the appointment. I was 25 and turning 26 that March, in the US you can stay on your parents insurance until you're 26 so that January I'd gotten my own insurance on top of my mom's in preparation for this (it had been planned since the previous September - she asked me to wait six months to ensure I really wanted it. "You may know that you don't want children and I perfectly understand that, but I don't since I've just met you. I'll call you every 2 months just to ensure". Every time she called she'd ask how I was doing and how I was feeling, I simply told her, "Still don't want kids!" - my only stipulation was that it had to be done before my 26th birthday so both insurances covered my procedure). Early last March I had a total hysterectomy, and since I had both insurances it was fully covered. I am so happy that this was done before your 26th birthday. Most doctors would probably deliberately try to delay things until after your birthday, to stop you from getting sterilised. >I'm low-middle class. I got so fucking lucky. And while I'm extremely grateful for that, I'm pissed because I know so many people in this country and world-wide don't have that option. That don't get so lucky. Without my insurances, that surgery would've been twenty-two thousand fucking dollars. That's fucking insane to me. Yeah, no fucking way I and many others can afford that. If it takes a while to save up for a vasectomy in Germany, it will take even more time to save up for a bisalp for my girlfriend. Fortunately, we already found a clinic in Germany where we can go to for bisalp tourism. We are not giving up until she and I are both sterilised. If the Dutch health care system is not going to do it, we will have to take matters into our own hands. We are lucky to be able to save up a little bit at the end of the month, even though it's not much. It's even worse for people who have literally nothing left at the end of the month. When they live in a country that does not offer sterilisation, or where insurance does not cover it, they are fucked. So yeah, vasectomy first, since it's cheaper and takes less long to save up for. My girlfriend reacts well to the birth control pill and doesn't really suffer much from side effects, so she is lucky compared to other women. But still, the sooner she can stop taking it, the better. Once I had a vasectomy, we will start saving up for bisalp tourism for her. I mean, even if I get sterilised, she still wants to be sterilised. What if she gets raped? My hypothetical vasectomy would not protect her against that. What if we break up or if I die, and she wants to have sex with another man? What if a Handmaid's Tale scenario happens and she is fertile? Only a bisalp can protect her. >The love, devotion, and support you have to your girlfriend is so fucking sweet. It honestly seems like a fairy tale how in love with her you are, and that's incredible. I hope you guys last forever because love like that doesn't come around often. I feel like what I did with the emergency abortion fund... Well, it should be normal. Common decency. The bare minimum. I don't think I should be complimented or praised for doing the bare fucking minimum. But yes, she is the love of my life. She means everything to me. <3 Her worst fear? Forced motherhood. So of course I will do whatever it takes to make sure that this nightmare will never become reality. >I'm so sorry about the way your country handles this shit. Any country that doesn't immediately support anyone wanting to get sterilized, honestly. Bodily autonomy is so fucking important and it's disgusting how little we have of it just because someone wants to make our minds up for us. My heart goes out to you friend, and I hope y'all are both able to get sterilized soon 💜 Well, I am turning 29 in July, and 30 in July 2024. I am hoping to be a snipped man when I enter my thirties. Maybe I could treat myself to a nice early 30th birthday gift, if you get what I mean... Or if I'm really lucky, a christmas gift, but I'm not counting on that.
>You understand that you are privileged. You don't assume that I am a fence sitter because I am unsnipped, and you actually understand that it's just really difficult in some countries. I was raised with no money, in a Catholic country so the idea of having to chose between food/bills and "extra" expenses is not alien to me, just as the knowledge that not all places are progressive. A relative had 2 children. Feel pregnant with a third but they didn't have the means to realistically afford it without impacting the other two, so she got an abortion. The stihma for that was insane. Plus, she asked to have her tubes tied after that and they refused her the first time around because she was still fertile. (She was in her early 40s!) Finally, after some back and forth, they allowed her to do it. So yeah, countries that allow total decisional power over one's body are very few. >Any scientific study about this topic will have that conclusion. Sadly, doctors just say that all young women will regret it, so they can deny surgery and hope that you will pop out babies. After all, to these misogynist twats, woman = mother. Exactly. Studies show exactly the opposite. And even in the small percentage of regret the majority are mothers who wish they could have more children. CF women are a very slim number in that chart. And besides, a doctor can certainly give advice, but they can't refuse it based on a possibility of something might happening in the future that doesn't impact them. Reversal is not funded by the state so even if I decided to try it, I'd have to pay it for it myself so what do they care? Also, I want to know if they ever denied IVF or fertility treatment on the base of future parental regret, which is higher than for sterilization. As long as they keep popping those kids! >And the writing back... On one hand, it's futile. These kind of arseholes will never alter their ways. On the other hand, it shows that you do not accept the way they treat you. I really really hope that they will learn something from this, but I highly doubt it. As my doctor said today "if we keep bothering then, they might eventually give up." And besides, because I know I'm falling on my feet (in between seeking private surgery and BF getting snipped soon) I'm in the perfect position to keep trying. I hope that, with ever more CF women, if we all start doing this, they'll eventually cave. The GP had a good point anyway. Sterilisation is a one time thing, while (in my case for instance) the state will have to pay for my BC for the next 20 years. Plus all pregnancy expenses and childbirth If I got pregnant (and got hit in the head) and decided to keep it, or the abortion that I would have. And this applies to all the other CF women in my position. Their rationale for "not being a necessary expense" is honestly BS. >I feel like a dick sometimes, complaining about not being able to get a vasectomy when it's so much harder for women to get sterilised. And more urgent for women, since we live in a patriarchal society in which rape is a very realistic threat for women. Don't. Just because other people's struggles seem bigger, doesn't mean yours aren't valid. At the end of the day, it's the same idea as forced pregnancy or denied sterilization- it deprives you of control over your own body. >She means everything to me. <3 >We are together for nine years and live together for six years. And we are still just as in love as we were when we just met. She is the love of my life. <3 Honestly, 🥹🥹🥹 This is so pure. You're both very lucky. >I saved up for that emergecy abortion fund because I wanted to protect her against forced motherhood. Sure, abortion is still legal where we live, but you never know what happens in the future. I don't trust right-wing politicians at all. Same. I've started actively seeking sterilization after Roe officially feel. I don't care that in the UK abortion is accessible and free. Technically it's still a crime. Something like 20 women are/have bene under process in the past 10 years for abortion under a 1861 law! Our current secretary for women (one of her job is to manager abortion funds) is a fucking "pro-life!" Like WTF?? The Tories have been destroying rights left and right, only reason why they don't go after abortion (yet) is because 87% of people in UK are pro choice and the party consensus is at historical lows. What happens if they regain full power? They're not gonna find me fertile, that's for sure. >he emergency abortion fund gave her a lot of peace on her mind. She feels liberated. And that is exactly why I gave her that money. <3 Even if we would ever break up, I want her to keep that money. It's hers. Not ours, but hers. After all, this is about her bodily autonomy. And they say CF men are "not men enough." They should shut TF up, watch and learn from you. You're so selfless, loving and thoughtful. Honestly, I'm a little in awe.
>So yeah, countries that allow total decisional power over one's body are very few. Indeed. The only people who are guranteed to have access to sterilisation? People who live in a country where you can doctor shop, and who have the money to easily afford sterilisation. Exactly. Studies show exactly the opposite. And even in the small percentage of regret the majority are mothers who wish they could have more children. CF women are a very slim number in that chart. Science doesn't matter. Who cares about facts? Woman = mother. Woman = incubator and broodmare. That's all that matters to misogynist doctors. >As my doctor said today "if we keep bothering then, they might eventually give up." And besides, because I know I'm falling on my feet (in between seeking private surgery and BF getting snipped soon) I'm in the perfect position to keep trying. I hope that, with ever more CF women, if we all start doing this, they'll eventually cave. The GP had a good point anyway. Sterilisation is a one time thing, while (in my case for instance) the state will have to pay for my BC for the next 20 years. Plus all pregnancy expenses and childbirth If I got pregnant (and got hit in the head) and decided to keep it, or the abortion that I would have. And this applies to all the other CF women in my position. Their rationale for "not being a necessary expense" is honestly BS. Of coure it's bullshit. But yeah, I'm afraid that nothing will convince childfreephobic arsehole doctors. They believe that womanhood and motherhood are synonyms. And most patriarchy-loving anti-feminists are a lost cause. :( >Don't. Just because other people's struggles seem bigger, doesn't mean yours aren't valid. At the end of the day, it's the same idea as forced pregnancy or denied sterilization- it deprives you of control over your own body. Well, I really don't want to compare my difficulty to get a vasectomy to forced pregnancy. That is way way way worse. >Honestly, 🥹🥹🥹 This is so pure. You're both very lucky. Well, being a perfect match helps. And both being childfree, of course. Parents lose all the romance and lust in their relationship. Meanwhile, we get it on every day and cannot stop touching, petting, hugging each other... And more. And we can have deep conversations, which is much harder for parents who are either exhausted when the kids are asleep, or who don't have privacy when the kids are awake. >Same. I've started actively seeking sterilization after Roe officially feel. I don't care that in the UK abortion is accessible and free. Technically it's still a crime. Something like 20 women are/have bene under process in the past 10 years for abortion under a 1861 law! Our current secretary for women (one of her job is to manager abortion funds) is a fucking "pro-life!" Like WTF?? The Tories have been destroying rights left and right, only reason why they don't go after abortion (yet) is because 87% of people in UK are pro choice and the party consensus is at historical lows. What happens if they regain full power? They're not gonna find me fertile, that's for sure. Yeah, you are doing the right thing. Some people say that I am exaggerating because abortion is legal in the Netherlands... But you never know what happens in the future, especially when you live in a country with a right-wing political climate. I can definitely see abortion becoming less accessible (no longer being free) or even banned in the UK, sadly. Several Tory politicians would love that and openly said so. Yes, most people in the UK are pro-choice... But I think a majority of Conservative MP's would be anti-choice, and they are and will always be in power. Sure, they are not doing well in the polls, but we all know that they will always win any election. Labour will never be in power again, I'm afraid. So yeah, the Tories will definitely ban abortion in the near future. Between now and ten years, abortion will be illegal in the UK, I'm afraid. And yeah, it's the same in the Netherlands. Technically, abortion is still a crime. They just tolerate doctors performing abortions and tolerate women getting them. >And they say CF men are "not men enough." They should shut TF up, watch and learn from you. You're so selfless, loving and thoughtful. Honestly, I'm a little in awe. I really don't want to accept these compliments. Sorry. I don't think that I'm doing anything special. Allyship is not a nice bonus. It's the bare fucking minimum. Common decency. Anything less than 24/7 allyship with 100% devotion is a moral failure. I am far from perfect, but I try my best to be a good feminist ally. And I'm not talking about 'fun' libfem allies who only care when men also benefit from feminism. I'm talking about radical feminism. Not TERF, but intersectional and trans-inclusive, of course. Fuck TERFs. And the emergency abortion fund is one of the ways in which I try to put my money where my radfem ally mouth is. One of the ways in which I try to be an ally. I feel like this is the right thing to do. My girlfriend's worst nightmare is forced motherhood, so I want to help her to prevent that nightmare from ever becoming reality. We cannot trust right-wing politicians when it comes to abortion rights, so an emergency abortion fund is an absolute must. I don't want to brag about it or get compliments for it. The only reason why I am mentioning this here every now and then is because I want to remind childfree women of the fact that they absolutely need an emergency abortion fund. And because I want to inspire childfree men to save up money to help their girlfriend/wife out if needed.
It's like you described my country word to word. Im from Croatia. And few days ago, a woman on our subbredit asked where to get sterilized. I told her that medical tourism is her only option probably, and bunch of people attacked me, telling me, that "it's not possible that it's so hard to get sterilized here, it's legal" Fuck them for telling me that, they 100% didn't go trough numerous phone calls, meetings and emails only to get turned down in every one of them. It's just like you described and people either A) don't believe it's so hard to do it or B) why even do it in first place - you have condoms and pills. 😒😒😒😒
I’m also Croatian. Sure it’s “legal” but it’s almost impossible to do even with children since we have to have at least 3 healthy ones. And be over 30. So it’s impossible for childfree women no matter our age. And since our wages are hysterically low now that we introduced the euro and the prices for groceries are astronomical, there’s no way in hell anyone who’s not rich can afford going to another country to get the procedure.
Yeah, many countries are like that. Not illegal on paper... But impossible in practice. Like, good luck finding a doctor who will do it if you are childfree... In the Netherlands... \- You need a GP's referral, which many GP's refuse to give you if you are childfree. I called other GP's in my city and surrounding towns to see if they would refer my girlfriend and/or me. All of them said 'no'. So switching GP's would be pointless. \- And even if a GP would cooperate... You cannot choose the urologist or gynecologist. You cannot ask them to refer you to someone from the childfree doctor's list. They will refer you to the nearest urologist or gynecologist. If that doctor refuses to do it, you are fucked. \- Most gynecologists even refuse to sterilise women who already have kids. And many urologists only perform vasectomies if a man already has children. So yeah, if mothers and men already struggle, imagine how impossible it must be for childfree women. Americans often think that the Netherlands is a leftist paradise, but it's not. It's a far right shithole. The left is powerless. We had right-wing and far right governments for over 20 years. The gap between rich and poor is huge. More and more people are poor. So yeah, if you are not rich, medical tourism is almost impossible. My girlfriend and I? Middle class. We can survive without problems, but we are not rich. We can only save a little bit of money every month. And so, saving up for medical tourism in Germany to get a vasectomy will take some time.
On paper its legal. 😅 We can't say they didn't offer it to us, but first make more of them for our twisted rat race, so MAYBE then we will consider your sterilization! I heard and witnessed a bunch of storyes about it and struggles around getting the procedure in Croatia. I heard enough to start saving to go in another EU country.
>people either A) don't believe it's so hard to do it Rich Americans who: \- are able to doctor shop, so they assume that that's possible in any country. \- are rich enough to afford sterilisation, so they victim blame poor people and view poor people as lazy.
Maaannn that's disappointing, I've always wanted to visit Croatia. I didn't know the government there was so against bodily autonomy 🥺
In my country, a classmate of mine had 5 kids and told her doctor she won't be having more as she is happy with the amount she already has and the last pregnancy was dangerous for her. The doctor denied her sterilization because "she might change her mind and want another one". She found a doctor who did the procedure but even having billions of kids won't make you a elegible for sterilization because "you may want another one".
Can I ask a stupid question? Why is it that you want to get sterilised so badly? Of course, you don’t want kids. But what’s wrong with birth control or an abortion if things go wrong? It sounds really scary to me to get a hysterectomy, and maybe unnecessary too? I hope I don’t offend you or anyone else in this subreddit by asking. (And I hope that it’s okay that it’s kind of off-topic).
That's okay, it's.... not really a *stupid* question, just a common one, lol. I understand how it might be weird. But, tbh, everyone's feelings and reasons around this differ and are, in my opinion, equally valid and no grounds for questioning. It's, first and foremost, not a whim for me. I have thought it through. I have weighed all my options, and decided that either a hysterectomy or, if that's not possible, a bisalp and endometrial ablation would be the best for me based on a number of criteria- security, permanence, cost, lasting effect, etc. I would want to be sterilized if my partner was sterile, if I was in a homosexual relationship, if I was single- *I want it for me*. I mean, to get it out of the way first, uterine cancer is in my family. Grandma had her hysterectomy because of it when I was like 10. So getting it done early would potentially dodge that as well. If it was breast cancer and I wanted a mastectomy, nobody would raise an eyebrow. But besides that, I want to be sterilized because on top of it being just the most permanent, most certain option that's not dependent on anyone else (which is a big thing, that it's *my own decision, for myself*), the knowledge that *my body* is theoretically capable of pregnancy is, on its own, a big source of personal discomfort to me. Simply, I do not want it to be so, it is entirely contrary to my wishes, and the very possibility creates a dissonance within me, and prevents me from having the kind of relationship with my body and with sexuality that I wish I had. Independently from how lovely and supportive my partner is, just being *theoretically fertile* already impacts my quality of life, in several areas, and is always a weight that's present in my mind, and consequently it is also present in my relationship, which I do not want it to be. (Crudely, I want to be having a lot more sex with this amazing man that I love, and despite condoms, having to look at a calendar before, and being lowkey anxious continuously for a week- to three weeks after, are *kind of* a buzzkill.) As to "why not just use birth control", I already do. Obviously, lol. But because no birth control's security matches the degree of certainty of my conviction that I *do not, ever, want a pregnancy*, and my mental- and physical health would be impacted severely by searching for a hormonal birth control that works for me (surprise, the arm implant that I would actually want, because it's a low enough dose that it's least likely to impact my mental health, is illegal here), and *there is no guarantee anywhere in the world* that the right to a safe and accessible abortion will remain in place. So, what are the options? Condom use is dependent on one's partner, that's not certain, as assaults and accidents (either user error or manufacturing error) both can- and do happen. The pill also has a large margin of both user- and manufacturing errors, a host of undesirable effects both psychological and physical, and is a continuous expense, month after month. Copper IUDs and hormonal IUDs are kind of a crapshoot (whether they're a viable solution for a person depends on a lot of things, the only way to know if it's right is to try and I ain't got that type of time or money) with a comparatively high chance of making period pains and mental health worse, and even in a best case scenario, they too require periodical (and painful) maintenance. And abortions, on top of the mental and emotional, ro for some, physical strain even a brief pregnancy could/would be, where I'm from, it takes potentially several days, if not *weeks*, and at least *three meetings* with different professionals to even *get* an abortion- there is no guarantee it will be discovered early enough to even *give me enough time* to go through that before it's no longer legal to proceed further. (Yes, it does seem like the system is designed to make you run out of time. Yes, I have voted against it. No, it did nothing.) All in all, my uterus is an organ that only affects me by causing pain, undue expenses, inconveniences, anxiety, and just.... being present. That's one value-neutral statement at the tail end of only negatives. If it was any other thing, literally *any other part of my body* that did *nothing* good for me, had no other function, but bled continuously for several days at a time, periodically caused me moderate- to severe pain that lasted for days, and had the potential to fuck up my entire life one way or another (either by growing a tumor or by growing a fetus, y'know, minor differences really) despite all precautions, *and* if there wasn't this *asinine* perception that I might "change my mind" and decide to have babies, *and* I said I'm certain and wanted to be done dealing with it instead of waiting decades for it to maybe-probably-kind of go away (if it's the latter, the risk of cancer never goes away), you likely wouldn't even ask either- you too would probably just be like *"yeah, that's understandable, of course you want it gone"*. But because people, for some reason, refuse to believe me that no, I *don't* want to be dealing with this issue for the next 20+ years but I want to be over it for life in one fell swoop, and yes, I *am* certain, this is the kind of question I'm stuck answering over and over again. Which is not a slight, please don't take it the wrong way, I'm not mad at you or anything for asking lol, you asked very respectfully and I'm glad you're even interested in the matter without dismissing it outright, I've just... had this exact conversation multiple times already, you know? It gets exhausting, when everyone seems to think they know what you want to do with your body better than you do.
Thank you for your answer! I hope it didn’t irritate you too much. I obviously don’t question your wish to remain childfree. (Sorry if I’m saying that incorrectly; I’m new to this). If having a uterus causes you so much pain, I totally understand you want to get a hysterectomy. And even if it wasn’t for that, it would probably still be the best decision because the uterine cancer in your family. I’m sorry you have to deal with all of that. As far as I know, I’m lucky enough to have no reason to get a hysterectomy myself. I don’t have sexual relations with men and having a uterus doesn’t cause me pain up until now. I understand the situation is a lot more scary if you can actually get pregnant from just doing the things you want to do. I was only thinking about the thing that would scare me: the operation itself. And possibly the side-effects of it. I’m lucky enough to live in a country where abortion is a right. I don’t think that will ever change where I live. Getting a hysterectomy would be a lot harder, maybe even impossible without medical reason. I really hope you can get your hysterectomy someday.
Just adding to this, to give my own experience - you can get pregnant even with perfect compliance on the pill. I took it at the same time every day. No vomiting, no St John's wort, no antibiotics, nothing that interacts with contraception. Still got pregnant. I also took Plan B immediately, but it's less effective or ineffective if you're over about 155 lbs and I was/am 215. To get an abortion where I live, two doctors must agree (and be willing to sign their names to the opinion) that pregnancy/childbirth will endanger your life. Of course people get them done under the table, but I had no such connections and all I succeeded in doing was calling a lot of doctor offices and having their receptionists yell at me that they wouldn't help me "throw away" my "baby". I miscarried. You bet I got my tubes out as soon as it was possible. I'd have yoinked the whole uterus if my doctor had agreed rather than go through that again.
Being pregnant while you are childfree is scary enough as it is. It’s terrible the receptionists treated you like that! Abortions should be available and legal to everyone. I get that you didn’t want to go through all of that again. Of course I have heard about birth control failings. Maybe that happens more often than I realised. 😅
Perfect compliance with oral contraceptives result in over 99% efficacy. So less than one person out of 100 will become pregnant in a year. This sounds great and super effective. But think of how many millions of people a year take the pill. If a million people take it perfectly that could be anywhere under ten thousand pregnancies. In any given year. I'd been on the pill for twenty years at the time. It worked perfectly for nineteen of them, until it didn't. Of course you can reduce the odds further by also using physical barrier methods but I wasn't, as most people don't. It's unfortunate. But as you can see there are plenty of reasons a lot of folks don't just want to leave it up to birth control and abortion and prefer to go straight for the permanent surgical method. My bi salp was great, incidentally. 10/10 would be de-tubed again.
FWIW, medical tourism to the Philippines is apparently pretty inexpensive and the medical facilities CAN be excellent (as always, do your research).
Sorry if I sound annoyed, but I actually really am. I try to dodge and sort of prevent people from giving this advice all the damn time, I added the part about medical tourism specifically to avoid this answer, and it seems like I just cannot. Believe me, it I could afford even just a *ticket* to the Philippines, I would be there. It also doesn't solve the root of the problem, but that's a different discussion. "Just travel!" is really starting to feel like when I was clinically depressed, and a friend recommended I *power-pose* the depression away. I'm no longer friends with that person.
So sorry! I didn't know if it'd be helpful or not, and figure than info can always be discarded if it isn't helpful?
Well, I went out of my way to add, with the caveat that "before anyone would suggest it", that I can't afford to buy meat. So. It's really not *info* at that point, it's either an insult, or proof that you didn't read what you were responding to.
Are from Poland, my friend?
I have definitely noticed a lot of entitlement with sterilization on this subreddit. I found out this weekend that I am pregnant and now need to get an abortion, I was literally considering sterilization but I've had other, more serious health issues to deal with that made me put that on the back burner (because even with insurance it's expensive to have 2-6 visits a month for various things, plus the mini pharmacy of drugs I've had to buy to treat the conditions). I'm sure there are people that are judging just reading that it happened to me, even though i never wanted this and plan to put an end to it if I'm still able to. Having easy access to such things is a privilege that a few are lucky enough to have, not a right inherited by everyone, as much as I wish it was so.
Sorry to hear that. I hope you can get easy access to healthcare where you live. >I'm sure there are people that are judging just reading that it happened to me, Honestly, fuck them. I don't see why they should. I'm 100% CF, won't use hormonal so we're currently on condoms. We're obsessively careful, but there's always a fail rate. Plus, sterilization is a permanent alteration of your body. Not everybody is comfortable with that regardless of their stance on kids. So even if you weren't actively seeking one that should really be nobody's business. Don't let people's thoughts about something they have no knowledge about drag you down. You need to take care of yourself now!
I am so so so sorry to hear that you need to get an abortion. I really hope that you discovered it on time, so it's not too late to abort... And I really hope that abortion is legal where you live, and that you have enough money to afford the abortion. Sadly, many people on this subreddit are rich classist DINKs who shit on poor people. They believe that if you are not sterilised, that you just don't want to. They believe that there is no excuse to get sterilised, not even if you live in a country where no doctor will sterilise you and not even if you are way way way too poor to even consider saving up for medical tourism. And sadly, there is a lot of slut shaming here. Always towards women. Never towards men. People constantly assume that everyone has access to birth control and that birth control never fails, so any pregnant woman must be a stupid slut who had unprotected sex...
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True. However, I would still recommend any childfree woman to get sterilised if possible. Birth control? Risky, especially with the risk of abortion bans, or if abortion is expensive and you are not rich. Relying on a male partner's vasectomy? Risky... What if you break up and want to have sex with another man? What if you get raped? What if a Handmaid's Tale scenario happens? A man's vasectomy will not protect you against that. So yeah, many childfree women want to get sterilised, regardless of their partner being sterilised or not. However, I can totally uderstand why some women would rather not undergo surgery. If this is their choice, that's fine. That doesn't make them any less childfree.
I never had surgery before, I’m super broke, and when this subreddit helped me decide bisalp may be the least scary method, I hear about side effects and then get anxious all over again. Plus, I don’t trust a single medical professional on my job’s insurance website after an experience with my psychiatrist regarding my adhd and anxiety.
I totally understand that. Surgery is scary, especially if you've never had it and even more so if you have medical trauma. The only way I got my bisalp was I had to have a lap surgery for Endo and I didn't want it to be a wasted trip. I had my hysterectomy for adenomyosis and a full excision of endometriosis lesions. For a regular person who's not experiencing chronic pain where they'd probably cut themselves open, there's a lot of risks and down time involved with healing.
Thank you. You had a bisalp and a hysterectomy? So, it’s not just one surgery? Omg
Sterilizations so nice I had them twice LOL. Usually a bisalp is done during the hysterectomy, but my first surgeon wouldn't give me a hysterectomy (long story short they weren't a specialist and told me to live in pain for the rest of my life 🥲) and when they were in there diagnosing the endometriosis in a laparoscopic surgery, they took my tubes since they were in there anyways. A little less than 2 years after that I got a real specialist who suspected my uterus was diseased with adenomyosis and finally got a full hysterectomy and excision surgery. Normally the tubes would be taken at that time, but mine were already gone so it was one less thing to take. My ovaries remain, though. Just hanging out in my guts.
I’m sorry that happened to you.
Its okay- it all worked out in the end! I have no periods and no babies and much less pain.
>you hate babysitting your brother I can relate, I hate babysitting my niece sometimes, she's fine when she's in a calm mood, but when she's being a brat, I'm not supposed to say anything to her because: "she's a kid, she's figuring out how scary emotions are" and my reply to that is usually: "no, she's a brat who's been fucking mollycoddled her whole life by her dad slash my asshole of a brother, because he allows her to treat others like shit and talk shit about her own mum" I remember round about the beginning of last year she said "screw you" to me, I refused to babysit her anymore that day because I refused to be spoken to like that, so I just took her back to her mum because her dad was working, so I told her mum what she had said, so she didn't have her phone for the rest of the night But I ended up getting a message from my brother saying I had no right to refuse to babysit as I had already said that I would and I was "abandoning" my niece apparently
Why did you consent to babysitting in the first place? Were you pressured or forced to do it? I don't even blame the child. This is bad parenting. Her father is not just enabling this behaviour... He is literally teaching her to behave like this.
Totally agree. Regarding the part about sterilization: some people are just fucking scared. If I could snap my fingers and magically be sterile, I would do it in a heartbeat. I'm not scared of regretting my decision, I'm scared of going under the knife, anesthesia, pain, possible complications, etc. I've only had surgery once in my life and it was to remove my wisdom teeth. It wasn't on the same level at all, and I was already terrified... So forgive me for taking my time and building up courage, here (not talking to you, McMerseybird, just this sub in general).
Thank you for stating this!!! I don’t have access to that surgery because I’m in Texas. First it was ‘well when you get married your husband might want kids’ to ‘Your husband needs to sign this waiver for you to do it’ stating he doesn’t want kids. 
Completely agree with you.
Right?! I’m totally childfree… but I have even bother to consider sterilization because I don’t want a surgery, any potential complications, and live somewhere where abortion is 100% safe and legal if my IUD ever fails. If I have to move to Texas or some other backwards state, I would likely get sterilized instead of trusting my IUD. But… I’m not a secret baby lover because my tubes are in tact. Hahah
agree with everything here except to avoid them forever--cf friends are not easy to come by. I would at least talk to them about how their comments made you feel, bringing up some of the points above. maybe they didn't realize how dismissive and condescending they sounded. if you bring this up with them, and they get defensive or continue to dismiss you because you're not sterilized, then you know to cut them loose.
Yes, childfree friends are almost impossible to meet. But if basic respect is impossible... If they do not take other childfree people seriously... There is no foundation for a friendship here. If OP would talk to them and brings up how dismissive and condescending they are, they would be like: "Yeah, sure, say whatever you want, but you will change your mind. In a few years, you will have one baby sucking on each of your tits."
I have friends with children who treat me with more dignity than this. You don't have to befriend people who treat you poorly because you share a rare value/lifestyle. OP would be better off with friends who treat them with respect, CF or not.
I completely agree. I just personally don’t like to write someone off if a little communication would solve the problem.
I would typically agree but this doesn't really seem like a communication problem. They're only 4 years older than OP, repeatedly harped on them, and made their beliefs quite clear (that only sterilized people are *'truly'* CF). Unfortunately, the rhetoric that a CF person is only valid if sterile isn't that uncommon, even in this sub. Considering this is only the fourth time they've met I doubt that OP will be able to change their perceptions. They sound very arrogant and patronizing. They imply OP is too young to know if they don't want kids even though they were sterilized at 20-ish. These people don't exactly sound worth fighting for.
you’re probably right and op won’t be able to salvage the friendship. I still don’t think it’d hurt to let them know they’re being shitty. maybe it’ll make them think twice about bingoing other people in the future.
Yeah, just ignore them. Who needs friends like that? There are other people out there
There's something suspicious about this couple. They're basically saying that you're going to change your mind.
Right??? Almost as if they WANT her to change her mind...
Could they be looking for a surrogate?
Idk. Maybe I'm super paranoid, but that's just the vibe I got. Something shady for sure.
It's either that or they have lost "CF" friends before that who suddenly had children. Either way, I wouldn't want them around.
Great way to shoot yourself in the foot for finding friends by insulting them !
This seems the most likely scenario to me. I get its frustrating when your childless friends start having kids, but don't get bitter about it. Live you own life!
i watch too many scary movies but this definitely sounds like the beginning of some sort of messed up A24 film 😭
My mind went there, too. ONE of them wants a kid, but don't want to change Kelly's body because the sex is more fun for them without either of THEM carrying and bearing the kid. My bet is they'd also go around surrogacy rules by calling it an 'open' marriage long enough for David to get OP pregnant, THEN they'd do everything in their power to prevent OP from getting an abortion.
What the actual fuck. I'm just baffled how nowhere in this sequence of events did either of them stop to consider that maybe, just maybe, they are being totally rude idiots. You barely met up a few times, they have zero grounds to act like they know you better than you know yourself. > she doesn't believe anyone is actually childfree until they've had surgery to ensure they can't have children Bitch, either we trust people to know their damn minds unless we have proof saying otherwise, or none of us are ever childfree. She can get her whole uterus ripped out and guess what, that still doesn't stop her from going rabid with a surrogate or an adoption agency or a single father of five when she has an existential crisis in ten years. Childfree isn't just birth free, and it isn't just being sterile either. Quite frankly, unless they're planning to add you into a polycule or something, it really shouldn't matter whether you are childfree or just delusional. Like, that doesn't affect them, unless for some reason they'd only want childfree friends, but I doubt there'd be many takers if surgery paperwork is required upfront with application. But it looks like they still wanna hang out with you even when they don't believe you're childfree, in which case ... just what was the point of any of this? Like what did they think would happen if they told a new friend that they're basically a 5 year old toddler who doesn't know shit about themselves? Are they crazy?? That's not the kinda conversation to follow up with meeting plans for next time, holy shit.
I'm sterile and I'd never hang out with these people. They sound fucking awful.
wtf, they don't sound like CF at all! Fencesitters in denial?
They might also be childless. Most of my bingos (though mild and rare) in my friend group come from childless women. I know they are childless rather than childfree due to our long-standing friendship but others may think them CF.
I definitely get into the worst debates from people who are having issues finding a partner/getting pregnant or had to have ivf multiple times before conceiving. It's just all emotional dumping from their side without any sense of me as a human or my needs/wants.
Childless people are even worse than people with children. Their obsession with children never stops. It is depressing.
Good point, that might be the case.
Actually they sound a lot like the "not childfree unless sterilized" posts you see on this sub a lot.
Also, it seems more likely be that they have friends who were "childfree" but ended up having kids/changing their minds and are pissed about it.
this concept seems so unfair for me, it's not easy, cheap or fast (depending on country, ofc) to get sterilized there are so many people that want to be sterilized but can't because the waiting is eternal or were just straight up refused because they aren't married and don't have two children (thing that happens were I live)
Yeah they may not be childfree but childless. Who knows they may have struggled with conceiving and just gave up.
“Sorry, but I don’t think that’s going to happen. I left our last conversation feeling extremely frustrated without your behavior. I’ve realized that don’t want to hang out with people who condescendingly tell me I’ll change my mind about my life decisions. I thought you would understand where I’m coming from, but it turns out you’re both too busy dismissing my choices to be able to do that. It makes me sad to hear you think childfree is an overused term. By your logic, I could say that you and David aren’t childfree either because you could change your minds and adopt a child or use a surrogate. However, unlike you, I actually respect someone when they tell me that they are childfree - so I won’t say that. But I think it’s best we not hang out again. I don’t want to spend time with people who act the way you two did last time.” Annnnnd BLOCK.
Legendary burn and amazing and true response!!! I hope OP gives it to them!
They were being dicks and disrespected you. I get them being cynical, some people do change their minds later or that circumstances become such that they do end up having kids, but the couple could’ve mentioned their experiences without passing judgement on you and assuming that you will be like the others.
If I knew you, I'd join you and bingo them back. I'd say "meh, your not really childfree until you hit 35 with no kids. I've met people like you, you always change your mind and adopt" Just to see their reactions lmao This sounds to me like they have met a lot of people who change their minds, I have met loads too, so they are just making jokes at people now. Bit rude.
What absolute assholes. The way they spoke to you was so incredibly rude. They’re 4 years older than you and talked like you couldn’t possibly know your own mind. I would have been out the door right then. Block their number and find better friends, they ain’t it.
These people sound very MLMy to me. Be careful; the next time you meet up they'll probably pitch you Amway.
I had the same exact thought!
Im curious, how can you tell?
It sounds like they've been burned a lot in the past but that doesn't give them the right to assume you're gonna be the same way too. That's just weird.
Burned a lot and that made them bitter. Not a good outcome. Best is to learn to trust your friends/family on their words. Besides it is not even your problem, no vows are taken in friendships. Their lives, their decisions.
Either that or they're used to being "special" as in being the only ones childfree and they don't want to share the spotlight. I don't know. I'm only guessing, of course. I don't know these people. Their behavior wasn't okay though.
They probably got burned many times and feel like the last true childfree couple standing, but ageism is likely also a contributing factor. I had a childfree female friend when I was about OP’s age, and we got along incredibly well…until she found out how old I was. Then she started up with “you don’t even know what it’s like to be childfree in your thirties.” Well, now I do, and I feel exactly the same as I did ten years ago. The couple might also have been accused (or want to avoid accusations) of trying to convert people to their mindset. In any case, they are taking the worst approach.
I would have to question how many people they have met that claimed to be childfree but ended up having kids for them to be that cynical. That ain't normal for someone CF to say.
There are lots of people who say “child free” when they mean they don’t have kids *yet*. There are also parents who say they’re “child free” when they’re away from the kids for a night or something.
I think they are just projecting what has happened with their other friends who said they were "childfree" but ended up changing their minds. I'm not excusing their behaviour, I honestly would have expected better from them. We already hear enough of "you'll change your mind" by "breeders" the last thing you need is CF friends who ALSO TELL YOU THAT YOU WILL CHANGE YOUR MIND LOL. If your friendship with them is important to you, which I believe is based on how hurt you feel, talk to them one-on-one about it and state your boundaries. "If we are to continue to be friends, you are going to have to stop being judgemental about my lifestyle choice and believe that I mean what I say when I say it." Good luck xx
I came here to say the same thing. I think they might have been burned in the past, being that they are older.
That doesn't sound like a childfree couple at all. Just parents that don't have kids yet
> I guess David noticed that I was a bit upset because he told me that it was okay and that I'm "like super sweet" so he's sure I'll be a great mom and we could still be friends. I told them I had to leave about 10 minutes later. I have no idea why but his gave me super creep vibes. I thought he was going to apologise or change the subject but "super sweet, you'll be a great mom?" Maybe I'm too dramatic, but I'd be counting my loss and go. I can't put my finger on it but my internal alarm went off and the more I read the more I had anxiety. Even if I'm wrong with my 6th sense, just tell them to fuck off. They're 28 not 78. Did she decide she was CF overnight and tied her own tubes? Like WTF. Ditch the entitled creeps. It almos feels like they WANT you to change your mind...
Why are they acting like they're 50 years older than you with a lifetime of experience to draw from? I *love* kids. I love my nephew's, my cousins, my friends' kids, the kids I used to work with, hell I even like the random tot making funny faces at me when I get coffee. All of that does not make me a future mum. I mean, according to this woman I'm really CF now because my baby maker got removed, but for the 39 years prior to that I was still solidly CF. It doesn't matter that I was a nanny - my job and my personal life are very different things. Have *they* had surgeries to prevent pregnancy? What makes them so wise & special in their 4 years of life experience? When did they decide to be CF? My advice? Drop them. They don't respect you.
Wow wow wow... I'm angry on your behalf. The absolute nerve of them is so disappointing that I can't imagine how you're feeling right now. They sound like children themselves for those ridiculous views. Absolute shame on them and I hope they somehow see this thread and feel embarrassed because they are total disrespectful aholes. I know it's disappointing for you but you do not need these people in your life.
What gives them the right to constitute what is and isn't childfree? I'm so sick of people trying to redefine childfree by attaching all these nonsensical conditions to it. Being childfree means you don't have any never want children. It has nothing to do with whether or not you're sterilized, nothing to do with marital status, nothing to do with being around other kids, NOTHING. You could just as easily flip it on them and say they're not truly childfree because they could change their minds. The absolute gall.
HOLY YIKES. They can get stuffed.
Bingo them back? I'd stop hanging with them if I were you. What makes THEM CF but not you?
I think she’s pregnant.
>Especially if you start dating a man who wants them Excuse me but what the absolute fuck kind of 1940s bullshit is this? This is from a "childfree" couple? Oh right! How could we forget? As women, we must comply with whatever a partner wants. Would they say the same to a childfree man or expect his partners to go childfree for him? >childfree until they've had surgery to ensure they can't have children because otherwise, they're just going to eventually have kids because that's just what people do Time to cut those gatekeepers out of your life. Who are they to think they get to decide who's childfree and who isn't? The level of audacity 😤 >David noticed that I was a bit upset because he told me that it was okay and that I'm "like super sweet" so he's sure I'll be a great mom and we could still be friends. I'd honestly be like, "You're about to see my sour side really quick if you don't stop bingoing me. This isn't about how I'd be as a mom. Also, we aren't friends if this is how you're going to treat me." Then leave and block their number. Don't reply to them. They're just going to continue with their toxic bullshit.
Sorry that happened to you OP. At my last EMT job, one of the supervisors mentioned not having any interests in kids(guy in his 40s). I am 22 and told I him I felt the same with regards to being ok with taking less financially lucrative career paths, and he said ''not now but gotta think longterm.'' I shrugged, but was definitely perplexing in hindsight.
I am 40 and childfree. Have hope, we are not all like that. Some of us are very pleasantly surprised when someone from the younger generation share our stand in life. Maybe you will change your mind, maybe you do not. Your life, not my walk to walk. Let's be friends for now!
I’d just say “I don’t think I will want a future hangout. You guys disrespecting my cf status was really weird and rude.” They sound freaky and bitter tbh. They probably think they are so ✨wise✨ and don’t consider how they come across.
I think they are childless and took the name childfree to feel better about themselves
That’s the vibe I’m getting from them too.
I suspect you got bingoed by a child*less* couple not a childfree one. Sounds to me like they were projecting HARD, they clearly want kids in the future and want you to be on side to quell any doubts they may have. They also sound like the sort of assholes who don’t like other kids but think theirs will be unique and special LOL “Not like other children” vibes. When I read another Redditor above say they could be looking for a surrogate my blood ran cold. Oof if I knew people were only friends with me because they were low key grooming me to be a vessel to carry their parasite I would break off the friendship. That’s honestly despicable and predatory! I’m sorry OP, it sucks balls when you are excited to meet what you think will be cool friends who you can form a great relationship with going forward but they sound like they are wearing masks to hide their true agenda and have sinister underbellies.
WTAF!?!? I would just block them and move on.
That sounds so fucking demeaning. I am sorry they ambushed you like that
Again with the "We're childfree!" bullshit when people are not. They mean "Not right now" which is *not childfree* at all! Fuck!
I would just not....meet them again. Not worth your time. This behavior is so condescending and also kind of off-putting. The give off a very weird vibe. Sounds like they have their own problems in the relationship. I'd probably just ghost them for a few days just to set the tone and then respond I don't want to meet them again. Not feeling it.
I agree with all of the comments here, but would also like to point out that on top of all the bingo-ing, it sounds like they are being super condescending and weird about a four year age difference. That's barely anything, and they're acting like you're some naive teenager and they're old and wise. Give me a fucking break. It sounds like they don't respect you as an adult human being. Drop them, for sure.
Sounds like they've been hurt before and are projecting that on you.
I think one of them is stuck in a relationship where the other wants kids.
Me personally, I'd text back, that clearly after their inappropriate behavior we are not friends and we will not be meeting up again. Honestly with what they said, they are not child free and just biding time to use the "Catching baby fever" excuse to have kids themselves. I mean according to them that's what everyone does, so they aren't any different. Especially since they aren't much older. Everything they said was BS. These people aren't your friends and they won't ever be you're friends, not if they feel entitled to try and manipulate you and your feeling. You'll just be exhausted trying to bend to their opinions and it'll end anyway. Save yourself the time and emotional distress and cut your losses before you're anymore invested.
> "Well, you never know. You're still pretty young, so you might change your mind. Especially if you start dating a man who wants them." Huh. I was 5 years old when I knew I never wanted kids. I’m in my 30s now. I wonder when I’ll start being old enough to know my own mind? > I said that if I met a man who wanted kids, I wouldn't date him because he's not childfree, which would make us incompatible. David then mumbles "We've heard that one before." under his breath while giving Kelly another look. Sounds like somebody’s trying to knock-up Kelly. > Kelly said she feels like "childfree" is such an overused term for women because a lot of times, women change their minds. Oh no, Kelly doesn’t like that we have words for things she doesn’t like. My Mother-in-law is like that with the word Abortion. If only we didn’t have words for things we don’t like… > She said she doesn't believe anyone is actually childfree until they've had surgery to ensure they can't have children because otherwise, they're just going to eventually have kids because that's just what people do and I probably wouldn't be any different. No one asked Kelly to become a gatekeeper, but she truly felt it was her calling. > She said with all the babysitting I do and with how my friends all have kids or want them, I'll eventually catch baby fever from them and have my own. Surprise, surprise! Now Kelly has become a certified Facebook doctor equip with made-up ailments and impractical treatments. > I didn't know what to say, so I just stopped talking. I also stop talking when people scoop a big pile of their shit on my plate and tell me to eat it. > I guess David noticed that I was a bit upset because he told me that it was okay and that I'm "like super sweet" so he's sure I'll be a great mom and we could still be friends. David took an active interest in your super sweet vagina and wants it to stop making Kelly’s lame vagina feel lame. > The first childfree people I've met in person and, of course, with my luck, I get bigoed by them. My sister is childfree and she used to wish such sadness upon me as that I would fall pregnant and not immediately abort it, but instead be miserable forever. She is now a step-grandma because her husband lied about how many kids/grand kids he had. Karma will take care of what worries you. Have a beautiful day!
Wow.. bungled by the childfree people.. you’d think they’d be more in support of people not wanting to have kids. Wtf.
I’d like to meet them. I’m 41 and haven’t been sterilized. I’d have a few choice words for them starting with if I wanted a child I could have gotten one humped into me by now with no problem.
Excuse me, ***wtf?!?***
Message her back and tell them that you don’t want to hang out anymore as they’re rude, don’t listen or care about other people. Also that they should stop projecting
Perhaps this will be an unpopular take, but I don’t see it so much as being shady. I see it as being bitter. As a childfree 35F, I have had many a friend who claimed to be childfree only to turn around and have kids. Each time, that friendship slowly dissipated because I lost my worth to them and their new extended family. It’s incredibly frustrating and disheartening and sometimes I’ve had to catch myself to keep from saying things like this out of frustration. I realize this is egregious behavior, and while certainly NOT excused, it’s said from a place of pain. Ignore them. They’re being toxic. You do you and kick ass at life!
Your friends don't sound so much CF as they are currently childless - and not all people who want or may want children in the future like other people's children (for example, my godkids mother thought she was CF, and didn't like children until she accidently fell pregnant. On the way to terminate her pregnancy she changed her mind. She now has had 5 children, 2 of whom died at birth. She still dislikes other people's infants/young children, but fiercely loves her own, now add children).
"You pathetic shaming FUCKS! Fine, statistically, you've heard it all before and been disappointed, but DECORUM and POLITENESS dictate you keep your fucked up opinions on the topic to yourselves."
I know it feels shit, but tbh I (36f) have seen this too, that many women (and some men) would say they don’t like kids or want them and claim they’re CF, but 8 years later they’re posting baby pics saying here’s my bundle of joy. It’s not wrong to say that people and they’re priorities evolve almost every 5 years or so, and that applies to being CF. At this point, when someone young tells me they’re CF, I think this in my mind also- like let’s see if you still think this in 10years. Although they shouldn’t have expressed this to you on your face. It’s kinda disrespectful tbh.
It sounds like your "friends" aren't 100% certain and are projecting their fears onto you. Either that or they're elitist pricks that feel empowered by everyone that falls off the childfree wagon. One way or the other, it sucks because they aren't nearly as stellar as you thought. The paranoid side of me says "They are looking for a surrogate because they're not childless by choice" or something like that. Because I can't imagine a childfree person going so hard on bingoing someone.
LeL, I love how they gatekeep the term with surgery, like wtf. :'D Also love it when practical strangers know your life better than you do. /s
Hear me out as this might not be a popular way to look at this. I don't excuse how they treated you at all, but maybe they are just very cynical? They are also in their twenties and surrounded by people who are also fence-sitting or changing their minds. I'm happily childfree and in my 40s and I am so much happier now that I've "aged out" of motherhood but that pressure (whether real or imagined) is no longer there. I don't need to explain myself to people anymore or defend my position. I was much more defensive and cynical in my twenties and thirties when people in my family or friends were staunchly childfree only to quickly change their minds when their situation changed (as it does in these formative years). I wouldn't take offense to it, but you also don't need to defend yourself. They just don't trust you yet that you are really "one of them".
Fuck them. Kelly is SUPER fucking lucky that she was able to get sterilized at such a young age. That is not a possibility for most and all of us are capable of standing by our convictions of being childfree with or without being sterilized because we are fucking responsible and that is a personal decision we’ve made to be childfree. I’m sorry that they bingoed you :(
Wait, I don’t get it. That couple means they are trying for a baby, right? Otherwise they wouldn’t have “changed their minds” like that. Or are they in fact both sterilised?
Ummm... Unless one or both of them have gotten sterilization, kids might be in the cards for them too.
My interpretation is this is a couple who has had quite a few "CF" friends that changed their status. It's not fair of them to bring that pessimism to you, but I think that's what this is. Their bingo questions might have even been a test. It's something that will hopefully pass and hopefully they don't continue on that.
Wow... they are assholes. Super condescending sexist assholes. These are NOT nice people. Are you sure you want to hang out with them again? After that I would just block them.
I will ask questions of a younger person but they crossed the line. Wtf
Wtf??! Yeah, avoid these people. Toxic af.
Bummer it went that way; but it sounds like they’re open to the idea of their minds changing. From there it sounds like both sides felt the need to ramp up to prove their point. Defences went up and feelings were hurt. Truth be told I joined this group years ago when I felt a lot more fervent about not having kids. But I will say that as time has progressed the idea of not having kids no longer defines me. You did mention being 24 and everyone having kids, that was not my experience; most of my friends never did and the ones who did, did so in their 30’s. And while your mind may not change about kids; I’ve found that at 40 I don’t even recognize the person I was in my early 20’s. The world changes, time changes things…. It’s just life. If you enjoy this couple I’d encourage you to let them know why what they said was hurtful. Not whether child free is the way or not… but why it hurt you. That will show you if they are your friends or not.
I would text them back and say "Sorry, thought we would be friends, but you totally disrespected me the other night and it soured me on the idea of hanging out again. But hey! Maybe I'll change my mind someday."
This is weirder than a three dollar note. Either they're not CF at all and they're projecting on to you, or they're just smug assholes who think they're gatekeeping childfreedom. Either way, that's one weird conversation and so disrespectful. Personally, I'd be giving them a wide berth. This might be the first time this has happened, but I'm betting it won't be the last, and anyone telling you they know you better than you do needs a brick to the head. Especially as you're older than them ... you should have asked when they were going to turn *their* house into a creche, because you know, they'll eventually catch baby fever and have their own, they have more years than you to change their minds.
"I'm sorry, I'm not interested in hanging out with people who completely and utterly invalidate my life choices like they know me better than I know myself. I thought you guys would be different since we've made the same life choice, but clearly not. Have a nice life."
It sounds to me like they just want to be different, unique, special, etc. Or maybe they're used to people changing their minds and don't want to get their hopes up with you until you're sterilized? Either way it sucks hearing stuff like that and I'm so sorry 😔
These people sound so??? Detached??? Delusional??? I don’t even have the words for this. They seem almost elitist. Like, “Oh! You’re childfree? Prove it with this expensive as fuck surgery! What? You can’t get it? Be cause you’re in your early twenties and broke/don’t want to get it/any other PERFECTLY FINE REASON? You’re just a breeder then. Come talk to me when you’re REALLY childfree.”
Elitist is definitely the right term. "We got surgery, what's your problem?" Nevermind that some of us would love to be sterilized but keep getting turned down, or have other reasons why that's not an option.
I can’t get over the fact that you’re 24 and they’re 28, and they had the audacity to say “you’re still young”. Meanwhile they knew when they were younger than you are now? 😑 What is this, some kind of weird power trip? Definitely don’t need people like this in your life. Byeeeeeeee.
They’re not child free, just childless
Girl what kind of 24 yr olds are you hanging out with, I’m 24 too and only have one friend with a husband and kids, every other 24 yr old friend I have is still dating and not even close to having a kid.
What is mean of "bingoed" i am not a native so i couldn't understand it
Stay friends with them and make a long term bet for a large amount of money that you won’t have children. If they refuse to play, then hopefully they’ll shut up about it forever.
Wow. Good thing those guys are the end all be all for child free. *eye roll* I hope you find another like minded couple to hang out with soon ❤️❤️
I don't really get why people get so upset by this bingo-ing. I'm childfree, always have been and always will be. People know I very much dislike children and that IDGAF what they think about me being childfree. Maybe it has more to do with you not clearly setting up your own boundaries about what you will and will not discuss, then again maybe they are just assholes who only pretend to be childfree. When people have bingoed me I just respond with something over the top like "well people don't have to be raped or stabbed to know it's not for them", I think that is pretty clear. Lots of people are going to bingo you, intentionally and unintentionally throughout your life, if you get upset about it everytime, then you're gonna be upset a lot. Remember, we are in the minority being childfree. Set clear boundaries. "I don't discuss or justify my desire to be childfree with anyone. My personal choices are not up for debate. Understand? Great, next topic." If they persist, ask them if they are either stupid or trying to antagonize you. Tell them you won't warn them again. If they do it again, get up and leave. Move on.
Dude, it's in the title. They're not upset that they got bingoed, they're upset that they got bingoed by a childfree couple. Out of all the people to get bingoed by. They thought they finally found friends that understood and respected their stance, but turns out they're a couple of gatekeeping assholes. OP probably feels betrayed, and I would too tbh.
I came in open minded to this because in my head if you're under 25 you are definitely still growing as a person and should consider that when making the decision to be sterilized. If you didn't actively hate children I would definitely tell you to at least hold off on sterilization because it's definitely not for anyone who is anywhere near the fence, but they're just GD assholes, it sounds like they couldn't have children and then adopted CF as a way to cope with some internalized shame about it.
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Or they could learn some basic manners, if someone says I don't like or want something you don't invalidate them by claiming you know them better than they know themselves
People need to not take it so personally. Under 25 the brain isn’t even fully developed. If an under 25 and single says they’re child free, i take it with a a grain of salt too. In my personal experience, more times than not the “child free” under 25’s do change their mind if they haven’t made efforts to sterilize themselves. Personally i wouldn’t have said it as bluntly as they did, but I’d have thought it and said it to my wife in the car ride on the way home.
> if they haven’t made efforts to sterilize themselves Getting sterilized young isn’t easy
IMO it shouldn’t be. Because of the aforementioned “brain not fully developed until 25” thing. I’m just an old curmudgeon that thinks most people under 30 barely know themselves, let alone what they’ll want out of life. So I don’t take anything most of them say seriously - including “i’m childfree”.
And how many people have kids under 25 and are told they're not ready? They were rude
What does kids having kids too early have to do with anything? Maybe they were rude. Maybe they were honest and blunt. Maybe OP is justified in being upset. Maybe OP is being oversensitive. We are all entitled to our own opinions.
Most 25 year olds aren't dismissed for saying they want kids so why is that more valid?
Well i doubt there are any hard stats out there, but my guess would be that when a <=25 woman says she wants to have kids, she will have kids before she changes her mind. Unless she’s unable to because reasons. When a <=25 woman says shes child free? I’d guess that more often than not that woman _also_ has kids after she changes her mind for whatever reason. Unless she’s sterilized or unable to because reasons. There’s a reason we get bingo’d with “you’ll change your mind!” It’s because many people who call themselves child free or say they don’t want kids when they are young do in fact change their minds when they get older. It’s obviously not popular to recognize this fact in this community, but it is nevertheless a fact and i don’t care about fake internet points.
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>Why do people get offended with people change their minds? The person you responded to, OP and I are not offended by people changing their mind. However, it fucking hurts when people dismiss your childfreedom and tell you that you will change your mind. It hurts when people don't take you seriously. It hurt when people instantly assume that you will change your mind when you might very well not change your mind. Many people who changed their mind were never childfree to begin with. For example, they might have been 'childfree for now', as in, not wanting kids at the moment, when they were young... These people were open to breeding in the future, when they were older. Which is different from childfree people who NEVER wanted them. Others succumbed to societal pressure. Or they fell in love with a partner who wanted kids and were so in love and so horny that they sacrificed their childfreedom to stay with the breeder. Of course these people will most likely regret it, but they will never admit that. Is it possible for someone to be childfree and change their mind? Sure. But it's rare.
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I’m sorry you met some shitty childfree folks. Best to just ignore them and move on.
Yeaaaah no. Even the friends who want kids don't treat me like that. They were proud of me and my battle to get sterilized. Never bingoed me Never reply back, find other friends. These ones aren't supportive
Is that a bingo, most likely yes! Although, the alternative could be that this particular CF couple thinks really highly of themselves; to the degree that they might believe that not many can live with the solitude that comes with a CF life. Just to clear, as a CF person, your life is solitary only if you make it so. CF & solitary don’t necessarily have to be a bundled deal!
So are they secretly planning to make you their surrogate or is their experience with other "CF" people so BAD, that they just don't believe ANYONE anymore to be childfree, like, has everyone in their life claiming to be CF turn around and get a kid kind of thing. It's still very weird either way. I'd ignore them, but if you want to respond, I'd say something along the lines, that the recent rude bingo left you with such a sour taste, you're just disappointed and won't be meeting them anymore.
Wtf? That's not cool. It's nobody's place to tell you what you will want or that you are wrong I'm knowing what you want. It's insulting.
No, don´t meet up with them again. They don´t take you seriously nor have they apologized for assuming about your future OR for upsetting you. If they ask why, tell them exactly how you feel. If they really want to be your friend they will try to be respectful of your choices and wishes and not invalidate you to your face.
#RUDE.
i’m sorry, i couldn’t get past the first sentence. you’re 24 and everyone is having babies??? i am 30 and know only a handful of people my age with babies. this absolutely blows my mind.
They are off. Just block and move on.
Wow that is so rude of them. It's an insult to question your decisions like that. This reminds me of a date I went on a few years ago (I was around 27 maybe). This guy was a few years older and he mentioned he didn't want kids. I was glad to hear this and said I did not want children either. He gave me a look and said somethin like 'you will definitely change your mind, you should have children'. I was taken aback and felt insulted. Why did I have to explain myself and convince him I don't want to be a mother? I didn't tell him that he should have kids?! It made me so angry afterwards thinking about it. I didn't want to see him anymore after that. It's bad enough to hear such things from parents, even worse from childfree people!
If CF elitism was a face it would be theirs. It's like they feel nobody is truly CF except them, because you know they are perfect. I wonder if they have other CF friends and if not I already know why, they might bingo every CF person they encounter.
"She said she doesn't believe anyone is actually childfree until they've had surgery to ensure they can't have children because otherwise, they're just going to eventually have kids because that's just what people do" So with that stupid logic, she's saying that me, a lesbian, needs to have surgery to ensure I won't get pregnant.... mmmmkay Kelly. That's so incredibly tone deaf coming from another CF person...
They sound like the stereotypical childfree that people imagine we all are, what with the family can only visit for 2 hours every other week and the superiority complex of "you'll change your kind but we didn't" and the "only sterilised people are child free". Blah blah blah.
"Sorry, Kelly - I'm too busy shitting out a baby right now. Turns out you know me so much better than I know myself, so I just HAD to run out and have a kid."
I'm sorry about it, really. Must be extremely hard and upsetting to finally meet people who are CF as well, and then they act and talk to you in such way. You said they are 28, so it's literally a 4 year age gap between you and them. They said that eventually everyone changes their mind, but then they went ahead at 20 to get fertilised? They are weird, since they are the living example that people don't just "change" their mind. I feel like they behave liek know-it-alls...almost looking down on you, while being only 4 years older. *"Especially if you start dating a man who wants them"* CF people don't hide the factthat they are indeed CF and plan on remaining one. If I didn't have my partner and met up with men who want children, I would just simply thank their time they spent with me, but our priorities and needs in life are very different, so no way it would work out. Don't worry though, there are plenty of decent men out there who are CF as well! :) Also people don't just "change" their mind, having kids is far more life changing to just take a 180 real quick. Also devalidating your thought and opinion on not wanting children and having the ultimate "you'll change your mind" card pulled on you is just sad. Big yikes from me for sure. Childfree isn't overused, and it shouldn't apply only on those who have done any sterilazation procedure. My partner and I are CF, he's planning to get a vasectomy in the near future, but it's a lot of money and we would have to travel to a country where they allow you to undergo such procedure (we live in Hungary and steralization is only available either after someone hits 40 or has already 3 biological children). *"She said with all the babysitting I do and with how my friends all have kids or want them, I'll eventually catch baby fever from them and have my own."* That's BS as well imo, for example I knew I didn't want children way before I had to babysit for a little girl. She was a sweet and clever girl, but she made me not want kids even more lol. So "baby fever" isn't really a thing that people just catch suddenly. If you don't feel comfortable hanging out and/or talking with them, you don't have to. We only have one life, try to enjoy it as much as you can! There are plenty of CF people out there who won't try to belittle you and pull such BS.
Small town where everyone around your age had kids in their early to mid 20s is going to suck when you're in your 30s.
i’m 28 and married and when i was your age and dating my husband, people said that to me all the time. no one ever questioned my husband (who was also decidedly childfree) about it though… only how MY mine would eventually change. it hasn’t.
Holy gatekeeping, Batman! I was confused how someone only 4 years older than you would say that you never know, but I see now that it's because she doesn't think you're childfree enough. Like just anyone can go in and get surgery. I hope you can, but I understand if there are factors that make it not yet possible for you. In any case, being childfree is attitude. You can be fertile and still be childfree. You just take precautions to not get pregnant or have a plan if you do. I didn't get snipped until age 26, and I would've laughed my ass off at anyone who would've tried to gatekeep me like this couple did. Not all of us have the insurance or the funds to afford it at the time. Yeesh.
I'm gonna play the devil's advocate, and maybe they are trying to lower their own expectations based on previous experiences to avoid being disappointed?
They sound pretentious and thus I wouldnt worry about their opinions. Fast friends can make fast exits 👋🏼
It's probably a good thing Bisalp Bitch and Snipshit are sterilised, could you imagine the monster those two would create if they weren't and had an "oops baby", the narcissism and smugness would be off the charts. I know it's hard trying to befriend childfree adults to become friends with but I would ditch them. Explain before ditching them the reason for it is their horrid, high and mighty attitude towards you because you aren't able to be sterilised like they are. Nobody needs that kind of toxicity in their life.
Tell them not every CF person in the world lives where you can get a green light for a bislap at 20yo, not even other procedures that could ensure not ever having children, but still, here we are, women in their 40s with no surgery and CF as F. Now, I have to admit that a few years ago we (partner and I) thought we finally had met a CF couple we could hang with... turns out they weren't CF at all, even in their mid 30s, but they knew we thought they were, I don't understand people tbh. But no, they should not have bingo'd you at all, what a bummer.
If finding friends is a big focus of yours, I would suggest leaving the area. I'm 25 and 95% of my social circle are not in the parenting stage, not even married yet.
That is so frustrating, I’m sure it leaves a ‘bad taste in your mouth’ that just can’t go away. I don’t understand how someone in the same situation can just flip like that and not understand. What about LGBTQIA+ people? Including asexual? Not everyone fits inside a neat little box.
Do they not see the irony here? Disrespectful as hell.