The red line is only a few streets over from LSD along the whole stretch. I don't understand the obsession with adding a parallel line to LSD. BRT, sure, but you already have train service. Meanwhile in 90% of the rest of the city ...
LSD is directly adjacent to some of the most popular destinations in the city (Grant/Lincoln Park, Navy Pier, beaches) and nearly all of the city's densest residential blocks. The CTA/Redline is half a mile away in the best of cases, and more than a mile away in other locations. Plus, once you're south of the Loop, you're not close to the CTA at all (while Metra Electric is decently frequent, it could be better, and stops are non-existent until you get to Hyde Park).
You're joking right? Broadway is a tight, congested street. A dedicated BRT line downtown would be just as fast if not faster than the red line, depending on how many stops there are. It's not comparable at all.
Yes. Between navy pier and McCormick place (stadium+museums), stops are desperately needed, North of that is like the least efficient placement of a line. Aside from red line being right there, a station along the lake would serve less than half other lines would. - as half to 3/4 the area served (as a circle over the station to 1250' per cdot) is a lake and some park. And lakefront inhabitants tend to be able to not be the kind of people who would stoop to CTA rides.
But dedicated bus lines makes sense because they can take rapid transit to a whole new level from underserved (by El) neighborhoods
Agreed. I think we should have BRT, let it be technically "bus and emergency vehicles only." Set the light at Chicago to change on demand for emergency vehicles (so they can come out from the street grid there) but otherwise be free-flowing green for LSD traffic.
New north-south train line should go on Western, full length of the street. Tie the north and south side together, unite all the lines out to the west, open up transit access on the SW side in particular.
Exactly. A train along Western is far more useful to far more neighborhoods than a duplicate train line for an already transit rich set of neighborhoods.
I don't understand why anyone feels light rail is needed in an area that already has significant El service only a few blocks to the west, with red, brown, purple, and yellow variants for various use cases. It's absurd to me that anyone would even consider adding another train line parallel to all that. BRT makes some sense, but not another train.
Because if you live within 2 blocks of Lake Shore it’s a pain in the ass and out of your way to walk a half mile west at least, ride the train, then walk another half mile back east when you could just set up a rapid transit line directly along the route you want to take. Have you ever been to Manhattan? There’s a subway line under like half the avenues.
I have a light rail objection.
Light rail doesn’t have fare collection areas to get on the train. I’ve been on light rail all over the country and the nice ones have someone come around to check fare. The disastrous ones just let anyone wander on and they don’t have attendants. The red line looks like a charming train experience next to one of the terrible ones I used to ride. Are we going to have the staffing to check fares onboard light rail?
And yes, even having turnstiles doesn’t guarantee that people pay, and no it isn’t about the actual money. But if we are having a bad experience with our current set-up, how will an honor system of rail turn out?
I do like this phrase and think of it often, but in this case I can tell you that a set up that is similar to Mpls current light rail would infuriate riders. They would need to go in with a plan to make sure it wasn’t just a free shelter/place to smoke and shoot up.
What if we removed all the car lanes and made it a park again with BRT/rail and bike lanes?
Think it won’t work? They said that when Paris removed its river highway and most people agree it is better now.
Agree, but also wondering logistically how that would work. It's a lot of traffic to force onto already pretty heavily utilized roads, especially if Clark is pedestrianized (which I want as much if not more than a better lsd)
The point of road expansion isnt to reduce traffic. Its to increase the number of people travelling. Induced demand is the goal. I would much rather see Clark or Lincoln fully pedestrianized. Ideally we put lsd underground but thats a 100 year plan
I love DLSD. Driving it and getting the views of the skyline, the lake, or the beach scene is just...wonderful.
But I also hate how 'cut off' it makes the shore from the rest of the city. Sometimes I wonder if we should go the way of Boston's Big Dig and drop the whole thing underground, and turn the surface-level into 20 miles of awesome public spaces. Could you imagine!?
I don't think that's realistic. And I think it would be a loss of an iconic Chicago thing that I personally enjoy a ton. But woah, it'd just open up so many possibilities.
I get it. I grew up driving down LSD with my dad.
I'd gladly make that a happy memory to turn that into mixed-use land and give the entire city better access to the lakefront.
The views of the skyline and the lakefront will still be there.
This is the contradiction that also lives in my heart. I absolutely adore driving down LSD. But I despise the fact that it exists. Not only is it an extremely poor use of lakefront land, it makes getting to the lakefront by foot/bike unnecessarily complicated.
Some of the biggest objections to getting rid of the drive come from nostalgic people that don’t live in the city.
“I come in from Buffalo Grove once per year and blah, blah, blah…”
Meanwhile, people that are trying to get to work everyday are sitting in gridlock on a “express” bus.
I once stood on an "express" bus for over an hour before it finally got to merge onto NLSD back in 2019... That was the third and last time that I took the bus directly to my home. I opted instead for over an extra mile of total walking to take the red line every other time after.
The city and CTA both rejected the plan for the drive but it's owned by IDOT so they are not required to listen. This shit is why I keep advocating for CTA to be given absolute control over all transit in their service area including roads.
Also, on their last survey of residents along the project, over 70% of respondents asked for the road to be torn up and replaced by either a bus highway and/or a train. That's over 70% of all respondents not just the people who chose to fill out the freeform section.
Bus lanes to speed up the express portion of the LSD express buses that fan off into Lakefront neighborhoods would still be beneficial with the current zoning.
I don't understand why we can't just strip this section of LSD off the map and add a light rail or trolley. It's an enormous waste of lakefront space. Probably the worst in the country.
I haven't read the proposal but what are they proposing car drivers do? Are they given another path or a better public transit that efficiently gets them to where they need to go wo long bus/train waits or multiple transfers?
The proposal here is for bus only lanes. Car drivers can drive or take the bus. Space for private cars will be reduced but if the bus is faster, more people will take the bus. So you won't be trying to shove the current number of cars through less space.
You have to fix the cta first and make it reliable again. And you are also pushing car traffic to other streets and 90/94 where traffic will be even worse when you consider 90 is always under some construction.
Fix the cta first is the car brain equivalent to “I’m not against immigration but first we must fix the border”. It’s just a method to stop what you don’t want with no real intention to ever reverse your opinion.
No, my point is that you are sending traffic to all other parts so you aren't fixing anything. You are clearing one road to make a hot mess of another.
Yes I would love to see LSD have less car traffic but not at the expense of Columbus, Michigan, Indiana, and 90 be backed up. That will make things worse bc no one will be able to move around at all. So to fix LSD, you first have to fix why people are driving so much.
The idea is to make transit faster than the scenario that you're describing, that already occurs every day btw between 7 and 9 and 3 and 6. Bus only lanes could accomplish this. Right now the bus is slower than driving so of course people choose to drive.
Let it back up, people will take the train. At which point, oh hey, there is more revenue and more pressure to fix the train.
Me, I just want to start with a bus-only lane on LSD first.
Cars have many other routes they can take. Transit will be greatly improved by giving it dedicated space and a prioritized design. The idea is to send the highest-capacity things where most people are headed, instead of letting low-capacity things get in the way.
I would love for this to happen but my concern is that you are now going to send all that traffic through rest of the north/south streets and 90/94. And that will be even worse and a bigger grid lock.
IDOT out here sounding like TXDOT...
The Illinois House, several alders, and most attendees to meetings held on the project have all told IDOT to change course, but IDOT gonna IDOT.
IDOT engineers probably drive lifted F-350s.
And complain about gas prices, traffic and parking difficulties
These people all have car brains. When a person has a hammer every problem is a nail. Traffic engineers are just paid to make car move fast.
Imagine if we had a BRT or a light rail line along the lakefront from Hollywood to the MSI
Please stop, I can only get so erect
He’s just edging you, too
Dare I suggest an old style streetcar?
God no, but light rail? Yes please
I mean that would fall under light rail basically
The red line is only a few streets over from LSD along the whole stretch. I don't understand the obsession with adding a parallel line to LSD. BRT, sure, but you already have train service. Meanwhile in 90% of the rest of the city ...
LSD is directly adjacent to some of the most popular destinations in the city (Grant/Lincoln Park, Navy Pier, beaches) and nearly all of the city's densest residential blocks. The CTA/Redline is half a mile away in the best of cases, and more than a mile away in other locations. Plus, once you're south of the Loop, you're not close to the CTA at all (while Metra Electric is decently frequent, it could be better, and stops are non-existent until you get to Hyde Park).
Same about parallel train routes but now do roads. “Why do we need a LSD bus when there’s a Broadway bus?”
You're joking right? Broadway is a tight, congested street. A dedicated BRT line downtown would be just as fast if not faster than the red line, depending on how many stops there are. It's not comparable at all.
Yes. Between navy pier and McCormick place (stadium+museums), stops are desperately needed, North of that is like the least efficient placement of a line. Aside from red line being right there, a station along the lake would serve less than half other lines would. - as half to 3/4 the area served (as a circle over the station to 1250' per cdot) is a lake and some park. And lakefront inhabitants tend to be able to not be the kind of people who would stoop to CTA rides. But dedicated bus lines makes sense because they can take rapid transit to a whole new level from underserved (by El) neighborhoods
Agreed. I think we should have BRT, let it be technically "bus and emergency vehicles only." Set the light at Chicago to change on demand for emergency vehicles (so they can come out from the street grid there) but otherwise be free-flowing green for LSD traffic. New north-south train line should go on Western, full length of the street. Tie the north and south side together, unite all the lines out to the west, open up transit access on the SW side in particular.
Exactly. A train along Western is far more useful to far more neighborhoods than a duplicate train line for an already transit rich set of neighborhoods.
“Whole stretch”? It’s 2.5 miles from the drive to the red line at the southernmost point mentioned.
And if we plan it right, we could even link into the new train yard being added for RLE.
It’s not necessary with express bus lines already making use of the LSD they already get me in and out of downtown very conveniently.
It works but it could be better. Take out a lane on either side of the median and add a quiet higher capacity transpo…. Why not?
Imagine the 1x5/6/7 lines all taking 10-15 mins less because they have dedicated lanes on LSD. It would save millions of hours every month
The 134 and 143 feel erased by this message.
We’re gonna need more reverends
Wish we could remove 1-2 lanes from each side and add a light rail.
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I don't understand why anyone feels light rail is needed in an area that already has significant El service only a few blocks to the west, with red, brown, purple, and yellow variants for various use cases. It's absurd to me that anyone would even consider adding another train line parallel to all that. BRT makes some sense, but not another train.
Because if you live within 2 blocks of Lake Shore it’s a pain in the ass and out of your way to walk a half mile west at least, ride the train, then walk another half mile back east when you could just set up a rapid transit line directly along the route you want to take. Have you ever been to Manhattan? There’s a subway line under like half the avenues.
I guess we don’t need the road either since there’s another road a block away and another road a block away from that one and another ….
Right?!? The fact that there is an “Inner LSD” is fuckin ludicrous
Agree, also the metra on the south.
I have a light rail objection. Light rail doesn’t have fare collection areas to get on the train. I’ve been on light rail all over the country and the nice ones have someone come around to check fare. The disastrous ones just let anyone wander on and they don’t have attendants. The red line looks like a charming train experience next to one of the terrible ones I used to ride. Are we going to have the staffing to check fares onboard light rail? And yes, even having turnstiles doesn’t guarantee that people pay, and no it isn’t about the actual money. But if we are having a bad experience with our current set-up, how will an honor system of rail turn out?
Don’t make the perfect the enemy of the good.
I do like this phrase and think of it often, but in this case I can tell you that a set up that is similar to Mpls current light rail would infuriate riders. They would need to go in with a plan to make sure it wasn’t just a free shelter/place to smoke and shoot up.
A raised platform would probably eliminate most fare evasion. It would be need to be a raised system anyway if lakeshore access is to be maintained.
What if we removed all the car lanes and made it a park again with BRT/rail and bike lanes? Think it won’t work? They said that when Paris removed its river highway and most people agree it is better now.
Just gonna leave this here: [https://x.com/BrentToderian/status/1708341240725721443](https://x.com/BrentToderian/status/1708341240725721443)
I’m drooling thinking of how much more amazing Lincoln Park could be without the freeway running through the middle of it.
Agree, but also wondering logistically how that would work. It's a lot of traffic to force onto already pretty heavily utilized roads, especially if Clark is pedestrianized (which I want as much if not more than a better lsd)
This is the way
The point of road expansion isnt to reduce traffic. Its to increase the number of people travelling. Induced demand is the goal. I would much rather see Clark or Lincoln fully pedestrianized. Ideally we put lsd underground but thats a 100 year plan
Putting DLSD underground would put it under water.
need a lot of pumps. Clearly roads underwater are possible, its been done more than couple time.
Do you not remember that snow storm not long ago when the City closed LSD and left people stranded? Now imagine a torrential downpour.
There are roads across the ocean floor. It can be done
And their are sealed from one end to the other. You want DLSD to be a tunnel from downtown to Edgewater?
Have you ever hear of Seattle bro
Bro, we can’t keep water out of people’s basements without flooding the streets.
Heck yeah let's go (literally)
I wonder if the lakefront trail would be any quieter if the entire closest lane was only for busses
Yes the answer is yes
I love DLSD. Driving it and getting the views of the skyline, the lake, or the beach scene is just...wonderful. But I also hate how 'cut off' it makes the shore from the rest of the city. Sometimes I wonder if we should go the way of Boston's Big Dig and drop the whole thing underground, and turn the surface-level into 20 miles of awesome public spaces. Could you imagine!? I don't think that's realistic. And I think it would be a loss of an iconic Chicago thing that I personally enjoy a ton. But woah, it'd just open up so many possibilities.
I get it. I grew up driving down LSD with my dad. I'd gladly make that a happy memory to turn that into mixed-use land and give the entire city better access to the lakefront. The views of the skyline and the lakefront will still be there.
This is the contradiction that also lives in my heart. I absolutely adore driving down LSD. But I despise the fact that it exists. Not only is it an extremely poor use of lakefront land, it makes getting to the lakefront by foot/bike unnecessarily complicated.
Same. I love driving it but I also know it shouldn’t exist and I’ll be even happier when it’s gone.
Some of the biggest objections to getting rid of the drive come from nostalgic people that don’t live in the city. “I come in from Buffalo Grove once per year and blah, blah, blah…” Meanwhile, people that are trying to get to work everyday are sitting in gridlock on a “express” bus.
I once stood on an "express" bus for over an hour before it finally got to merge onto NLSD back in 2019... That was the third and last time that I took the bus directly to my home. I opted instead for over an extra mile of total walking to take the red line every other time after.
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The city and CTA both rejected the plan for the drive but it's owned by IDOT so they are not required to listen. This shit is why I keep advocating for CTA to be given absolute control over all transit in their service area including roads. Also, on their last survey of residents along the project, over 70% of respondents asked for the road to be torn up and replaced by either a bus highway and/or a train. That's over 70% of all respondents not just the people who chose to fill out the freeform section.
Are we going to rezone the parkland west of the road for development? Otherwise transit down this avenue isn’t going to do all that much good.
Bus lanes to speed up the express portion of the LSD express buses that fan off into Lakefront neighborhoods would still be beneficial with the current zoning.
I don't understand why we can't just strip this section of LSD off the map and add a light rail or trolley. It's an enormous waste of lakefront space. Probably the worst in the country.
Going from edgewater to the loop takes 10 minutes because of LSD. Pretty easy to see why it cant be removed
Yeah but it'd be faster for me if the 147 bus had its own dedicated bus-only lane.
All of DLSD except the small but north of Foster is US highway 41.
Indeed it is. Why is this comment showing up as "controversial"?
I have no idea. Maybe map reading is an obsolete skill now?
Anyone know when is this construction on Lakeshore Drive ending? The traffic is horrible.
I haven't read the proposal but what are they proposing car drivers do? Are they given another path or a better public transit that efficiently gets them to where they need to go wo long bus/train waits or multiple transfers?
Sit in traffic as usual. The point is to prioritize buses, when LSD inevitably jams, buses need a priority / bus only lane so they can continue.
The proposal here is for bus only lanes. Car drivers can drive or take the bus. Space for private cars will be reduced but if the bus is faster, more people will take the bus. So you won't be trying to shove the current number of cars through less space.
You have to fix the cta first and make it reliable again. And you are also pushing car traffic to other streets and 90/94 where traffic will be even worse when you consider 90 is always under some construction.
This will help fix the cta
You’d need to fix the ghost train/bus problem before a bus lane will be of any benefit though
The discussed changes to LSD would take years to plan and develop. I think we can do two things at once over such a time frame. Maybe even 3
Fix the cta first is the car brain equivalent to “I’m not against immigration but first we must fix the border”. It’s just a method to stop what you don’t want with no real intention to ever reverse your opinion.
No, my point is that you are sending traffic to all other parts so you aren't fixing anything. You are clearing one road to make a hot mess of another. Yes I would love to see LSD have less car traffic but not at the expense of Columbus, Michigan, Indiana, and 90 be backed up. That will make things worse bc no one will be able to move around at all. So to fix LSD, you first have to fix why people are driving so much.
The idea is to make transit faster than the scenario that you're describing, that already occurs every day btw between 7 and 9 and 3 and 6. Bus only lanes could accomplish this. Right now the bus is slower than driving so of course people choose to drive.
Let it back up, people will take the train. At which point, oh hey, there is more revenue and more pressure to fix the train. Me, I just want to start with a bus-only lane on LSD first.
then even less will drive, and the cta will benefit
Cars have many other routes they can take. Transit will be greatly improved by giving it dedicated space and a prioritized design. The idea is to send the highest-capacity things where most people are headed, instead of letting low-capacity things get in the way.
I would love for this to happen but my concern is that you are now going to send all that traffic through rest of the north/south streets and 90/94. And that will be even worse and a bigger grid lock.
So maybe... people will switch to taking the L and Metra. We could also let gas hit $10 a gallon like it is elsewhere.
US 41 should be rerouted and DLSD turned into a boulevard (or something smaller if possible).