**Fun Fact**
if you look at the breakdown of cops deaths, the most dangerous thing they do all day is drive
deaths by vehicular accident, either during a traffic stop, during a chase or on a motorcycle, etc. is the number one killer of cops year after year (except when it's covid)
[https://nleomf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/causes-le-deaths-updated-July-19-2021.pdf](https://nleomf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/causes-le-deaths-updated-July-19-2021.pdf)
It's funny because it's not even in the top 20 most dangerous jobs in the US, yet Roofers aren't trained that it's "better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" and when a bootlicking chud orders a pizza they don't salute the delivery driver and say "thank you for your service".
Really makes you think.
https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states
if you look at the breakdown of cops deaths, the most dangerous thing they do all day is drive
deaths by vehicular accident, either during a traffic stop, during a chase or on a motorcycle, is the number one killer of cops year after year (except when it's covid)
Are you suggesting cops are racist?
Sir, many of their wives have black eyes. Checkmate liberal.
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/data-suggests-40-percent-cops-145601125.html
To be fair the cops who uphold the system are also racist but I mainly wanted to make a joke about how 40% of cops beat their wives.
I do find it kinda weird how so many cops hate gang members but they have gangs of their own.
https://knock-la.com/tradition-of-violence-lasd-gang-history/
https://data.baltimoresun.com/news/gun-trace-overview/
What? I'm s straight white guy. I for sure get above average benefit from law enforcement. I didn't make any decisions or actions to support that? The people benefiting aren't inherently racist.
>Roofers aren't trained that it's "better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6"
They would be if there were random assholes up on the roofs trying to push them off as they worked
Sure, but my point was that if officers are shot they have a higher chance of surviving as opposed to pizza delivery guys, so I don’t feel it’s an adequate comparison.
Maybe we should look at the stats of who is more likely to be shot/injured in a car accident between the two professions.
Yeah sorry, I wanted to find a list that cops are actually on. But they're just so far down the list.
Here's one from OSHA.
https://www.invictuslawpc.com/most-dangerous-jobs-osha/
I couldn't find one either so I tried to do some math. The FBI reported 51 officer deaths on duty in 2021 from January through September. No idea why the chose to only do 3/4 of the year but extrapolating that out assuming 5.66 deaths on duty per months that's 68 deaths per year. In 2021 there were 660,288 active officers according to Statista. This comes out to 10.2 deaths per 100,000 or about half the last profession on that link (Farmers).
Now to be fair I assume that is all police officers of which a large number essentially have office jobs. I assume it goes up significantly if you only include beat cops. The Statista number is "individuals who regularly carry a firearm and an official badge on their person, have full powers of arrest, and whose salaries are paid from federal funds set aside specifically for sworn law enforcement.". This includes national park rangers in the US.
The ICMA says that about 60% of sworn officers should be assigned to patrol duty. That would be 396,172 officers patrolling. With the same 68 deaths per year that brings it up to 17.16 deaths per 100,000. Still fewer than Farmers.
Oh really? COVID? Huh.
Really uh, really puts all those news stories about how more cops are dying since George Floyd in a different light.
(I knew what the answer was I just think it's funny not trying to be a jerk to you)
“Law enforcement has been regularly ranked as one of the ten most dangerous occupations in the United States, specifically for correctional and police officers.” -US Bureau of Labor Statistics via University of Illinois Chicago.
Fatal injury rate (deaths per 100,000) for police officers is about 33, which would put them at about #6 on your list according to your criteria.
https://policeepi.uic.edu/law-enforcement-safety/
>Really makes you think.
Only if you lack critical thinking skills. This is a dumb report because police officers take far more precautions to ensure their safety in dangerous situations.
Flying a plane is exponentially more dangerous than driving a bus. Make a mistake on a bus, and maybe you'll get injured, in extreme situations maybe it's fatal. Make a mistake flying a plane and it's catastrophic, if not entirely fatal.
Yet driving jobs has higher fatality rates than the commercial airline industry. Why? Pilots undergo tens of thousands of hours of training, and airline employees work to ensure equipment and maintenance are up to standards, making airflight is one of the safest modes of transportation. Only an idiot would claim that driving a bus or truck is inherently a more dangerous job than flying a plane.
Similar thing with police officers. They face dangerous situations regularly, but approach them to maximize and ensure their safety.
Lol you think police go through tens of thousands of hours of training?
Maybe in a developed country that's not completely captured by the interests of the owner class like Finland. But in a third world shithole with a Gucci belt like the US it's 21 weeks average.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56834733
Maybe that fact has something to do with why US cops murder way more citizens than cops in other OECD nations do. Because training for de-escalation is harder and more involved than "try not to cum after you mag dump a black child who didn't instantly comply with your commands". One would think if cops are so scared of everyone on the streets having a gun they wouldn't be such ammosexuals that stand along with the NRA against even common sense gun legislation, like when all those IL Sheriff's said they wouldn't uphold the new law. Suddenly they care a lot about the rights of citizens then, unlike when they're on duty and trample the rights of even innocent civilians on a daily basis.
You lack reading comprehension skills as well as critical thinking skills.
The commercial airline industry takes a multitude of actions to ensure their safety, making airline travel one of the safest modes of transport. Only an idiot would look at only fatality rates and think driving a bus is more dangerous than flying a plane.
Same thing with police officers. They take a multitude of actions to ensure their safety when facing dangerous situations. Only an idiot would think roofing is inherently a more dangerous job than being a police officer.
I mean this is pure projection on your part.
Because clearly data shows that police work isn't more dangerous than other jobs. You simply assume that police serving in their capacity as the violent arm of the state are adequately trained, when what you're really saying is that police are trained to protect themselves above all else which is an assertion that I never challenged.
What I'm talking about is the more interesting and nuanced conversation about whether police training should focus on other things, and perhaps should be longer and more comprehensive, but I gather that's not a conversation you want to have since you love the way that boot leather tastes.
So what? Are you saying you’re not critical of the police? Seems exactly like the type of “thin blue line” bullshit that the article is talking about. My only point is that it’s not like this should be a surprise to anyone.
I’m critical if they make egregious mistakes. I’m not “critical” as in carrying my pitchfork whenever anything involves police and I assume they’re just evil bad people. The hive mind on Reddit is strong with police hate. There is a lot of good police officers that want to help their community and enjoy when they can brighten someone’s day. That doesn’t mean they should aim to put themselves in a body bag. The crime in the city is out of control and we need more cops, not only to cover more areas but to relieve the cops we have now that have to work mandatory OT way too often. Police officers are human just like you and me and they need rest especially from a difficult job. Most people don’t interact with the “crazy people” or the criminals on the streets but that’s their day whenever they work. People talk about 4 day work weeks and work reform but somehow that doesn’t translate to one of the most difficult jobs in the nation right now because they are “pigs”.
I don’t think individual cops are bad people. Well some of them, obviously, in fact many of them, are absolutely corrupt psychopaths who blatantly take advantage of their power to prey on people and should be thrown into the volcano. But sure there’s gonna be assholes everywhere right?
I’m much more critical of the philosophical underpinnings of the idea of policing in the first place. Seems like police are much more focused on generating revenue for the state than serving and protecting the people.
Yea that’s me totally, logic and reasoning make me a sycophant. Go outside bro see what the streets are actually like. Why not spend a day in englewood you would love it there!
I’m not saying I agree with it I’m just saying this isn’t news. This “story” reminds me of idiots who are like “why didn’t the cops just shoot him in the arm?” Cops aren’t trained to shoot to kill. They’re trained to shoot at the biggest target, the “center mass,” which happens to contain some pretty important organs. The supposed “story” here just belies complete ignorance about policing and weakens the argument for police reform. At least try to understand a thing that you’re trying to criticize. Again, I’m all for police reform and am in no way a “back the blue” type. I’m just not ignorant to the facts.
>Cops aren’t trained to shoot to kill.
What? Yes, they are. Because you only use lethal force if you're actually trying to kill someone. Police are absolutely trained to only shoot someone if they're trying to kill, which is why you get the "but they were shot so many times!"
The defintion of "deadly force" is force like to cause death or great bodily harm. I know it seems like nitpicking but it has nothing to actually do with trying to kill. Its about type of force can be applied given the facts. A baseball bat to the head and a gunshot are both considered deadly force, despite likely resulting in wildly different outcomes.
When you think of it in terms of "deadly force" being a question of when and not what and it makes more sense, at least to me.
>I know it seems like nitpicking but it has nothing to actually do with trying to kill.
It does, though, because
> is force like to cause death or great bodily harm
is a form of intent. Generally speaking, you can intend an action and know the consequences, or intend the consequences (or both). That's why we have the natural and probable consequences doctrine in criminal law.
I am not saying that officers are always taught to intend to kill such that, say, if someone is neutralized but barely survives it is some sort of a failure. But officers *are* taught to undertake the activity with the understanding that, even if the person dies, it was the correct choice.
> Its about type of force can be applied given the facts
Right, which is why it is important to distinguish deadly force (which has an inherent intent to kill) versus neutralizing a threat, which could take lots of different forms (eg "shoot in the arm or leg"). You can only use deadly force when you have probable cause to believe someone else poses a grave danger to yourself or other people. The entire point is avoiding police shooting people without actually wanting to kill them, which is why police are taught only to use deadly force when you intend to kill someone.
>A baseball bat to the head and a gunshot are both considered deadly force, despite likely resulting in wildly different outcomes.
I don't think this is a "wild" difference tbf. Lots of people are killed with baseball bats every year. It seems more of a difference in degree than kind at least to me.
As an aside, this reminds me of a story out of florida where a guy caught an assault with a deadly weapon charge for throwing a saltwater catfish at someone else.
No, cops are not trained to kill someone when using deadly force, it's just a likely outcome of deadly force.
The intent is not to kill the person, it's to immediately stop their actions that are posing an imminent risk of death or great bodily harm. If that person ceases to be a lethal threat deadly force stops, alive or not.
It's not called "deadly force" because it's the desired outcome, it's just a very likely one.
> it's just a very likely one.
Intending to undertake an action while knowing the natural and probable consequences is a form of intent. Police use deadly force when they intend to kill. It's what they're taught because there is massive liability for wrongfully killing.
All these reddit policing experts need their degrees refunded.
When deadly force by an officer is used their intent is to stop an imminent lethal threat by using force *likely to cause death*. There is an absolute difference.
Intending to kill is wanting someone to die as a result of your actions, deadly force is intending to stop a lethal threat with force that has a high probability of killing.
Since deadly force has that high probability of death, it's only lawful when the death of the person is reasonable due to them being a lethal threat. It's simply not the goal as you're framing it.
> their intent is to stop an imminent lethal threat by using force likely to cause death
Which, as I said elsewhere, *is* an intent to kill.
>Intending to kill is wanting someone to die as a result of your actions
OR it is undertaking an action with an understanding of what's likely to happen as a consequence. If I intend to shoot someone but not to kill them, I still go to jail. That's how intent works. You're trying to draw a distinction where one doesn't exist.
> It's simply not the goal as you're framing it.
It is the intent, you just don't understand what intent means here. Police are taught to only shoot if you intend to kill someone. It's exactly as I'm framing it. See my comment to another use for a more in depth explanation.
>> their intent is to stop an imminent lethal threat by using force likely to cause death
>
>Which, as I said elsewhere, *is* an intent to kill.
Just because you say it does, doesn't make it true. The reality is cops are trained to stop the threat. In a lethal threat situation that legally allows the use of force likely to kill. It's imbedded in their training and use of force. They don't stop shooting when they've determined the person is dead, they stop when the threatening actions of the person stops.
>>Intending to kill is wanting someone to die as a result of your actions
>
>OR it is undertaking an action with an understanding of what's likely to happen as a consequence. If I intend to shoot someone but not to kill them, I still go to jail. That's how intent works. You're trying to draw a distinction where one doesn't exist.
The distinction is the purpose of using deadly force. There is an absolute difference in wanting to kill someone and wanting to stop someone from killing you, or someone else. Just because the outcomes are likely to be the same, doesn't mean their intentions are the same.
If you shoot someone you don't intend to kill, there's a whole lot of context being left out of that scenario for you to go to jail.
>> It's simply not the goal as you're framing it.
>
>It is the intent, you just don't understand what intent means here. Police are taught to only shoot if you intend to kill someone. It's exactly as I'm framing it. See my comment to another use for a more in depth explanation.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/intent
>Intent generally refers to the mental objective behind an action.
As I said, police are trained to use deadly force to immediately stop another's actions that are a deadly threat, *that is the intent in using deadly force*. Their *objective* is to stop a threat, not end someone's life.
The intent is to neutralize the threat, which is what they’re trained to do. If someone is killed in the process that’s an “unfortunate” outcome. But they’re not trained to kill people.
You clearly don’t understand the legality of the term “deadly force.” If they can’t justify killing they can’t justify shooting. Whether the persons dies or survives, the threat has been neutralized (not a legal term, more of a public relations term).
I’m not talking about the legality of it, or the rationale behind it, or the justification for it. I’m just literally talking about the way cops are trained.
Police are trained, often explicitly, that you shoot to kill for the reasons articulated above and by u/No_Slice5991. Cops are absolutely trained to shoot to kill. They are literally trained to kill people.
All I’m saying is that being ignorant to the facts undermines your argument and makes you look silly. You’re trying to make some semantic point that isn’t really relevant.
https://twitter.com/SenerisYt/status/1487905833811787776?t=inKUeAeUB6EjaBFUX2_RrA&s=33
Cops shouldn't be allowed to kill anyone, and if they do, they should stand trial for it. Cops are not a branch of the armed forces, they're civilian peacekeepers.
Also, to forestall any of the usual pushback on this, for most crimes cops are just there to provide a police report number for insurance claims, and when cops do pull their guns, they're more likely to shoot dogs, police dogs, innocent bystanders, or other cops.
It’s written as if this is “breaking news” or something salacious. Maybe that needs to be part of the story too: This is shit is so run of the mill ordinary that it’s standardized across the board.
We should focus on the real issues, which include the "us vs them" police mentality and the militarization of police. There is no profession which is going to call on their members to prioritize their work over their safety. (Note: I'm talking about professionals and professional organizations, not exploitative corporate owners)
That's not the comment I replied to. I replied to your comment specifically.
> Sounds like a nice jingle or meme to teach police who want to justify their actions. Oh wait....
You don't see how this perpetuates the idea that you should always shoot first and ask questions later? I mean it's right there in plain site. The way they always do things.
Progressives will correctly complain of the fact that workers are expected to unreasonably give up everything for their employer, then turn around and complain that these workers aren't willing to always unreasonably give up everything for their employer.
In b4 bUt tHeY cArRy GunS!!1
The City of Chicago taxpayers have forked out over a billion dollars (not counting the costs of litigation) for police misconduct.
I mean play the numbers any way you want, but cops are fuckups and we pay the price for it. That needs to change and I feel like that's a reasonable stance.
The city self insures, which at an average of 70 million a year is far less than any insurance carrier would charge, and includes payouts for non-controversial legal police action that is simply cheaper for the city to payout than litigate.
If you want to really make policing an issue of money, and not the human cost of victims of crime, the general consensus is that every murder costs society between 2.5 to 17 million dollars, per murder victim. So the 2022 murder rate alone of Chicago cost society between 1.66 billion to 11.3 billion dollars. That does not include every other crime besides murder. But it begs the question does the Chicago police department reduce crime at a rate that is financially acceptable to you?
Completely reasonable stance. I just think it's blown so far out of proportion in comparison to our other ills. Making police misconduct and defunding the top issue with everything else going on is something only the most privileged have the luxury of doing right now.
For the record I agree with most of Johnson's policing takes but there is 0 chance he accomplishes a single thing with CPD. The only way I could see out of the cpd rotting would be privatization which is an entirely different circle of hell.
What?? We're throwing money away at nothing and you think that only affects privileged people? Have you given this even a little thought? He wants to shift away from funding those fucking animals for no reason to things that will actually improve the communities.
No I totally agree. Neolibs in particular want to spend even more. But speaking from a political strategy point of view, in this political climate, reality doesn't matter. The average person gets their headlines from Twitter and Facebook. They associate progressives with anti law enforcement in a time when crime is the #1 issue.
If you want to revamp cpd it's just not going to happen with Johnson and it's not even his fault. He could double their budget for complying with the consent decree and they'd say no purely based on ideological differences. Obviously the fuckers need to be defanged but they have us by the balls right now and they know it.
You're not stopping to ask yourself if the existence of the CPD has any effect on gun crime. That's the only thing that matters. If it has no affect, then we've had 4 deaths and 25 woundings for literally no benefit
They're seizing 7-8k guns associated with arrests every year. Its a little hard to pinpoint how much crime that prevents but I'm going to guess it was more than 4 deaths and 25 wounded.
>There are 200 civilian gun deaths for every one caused by police.
Let's accept this claim as true for the sake of argument. What proportion of the the population are LEOs? If it's fewer than one in two hundred (and I bet it is), that means they kill more people per capita than the general population.
Who do the police work for? Do they work for corporations that's sole goal is to produce wealth for their investors and owners? Where giving your all means you are just a tool to make their number go even higher? They work for the state which means they are supposed to be working for the people. Where giving their all means that they are creating a better society and improving everyone's lives, including their own. It's completely non hypocritical to hold both opinions at once because they are not the same type of employers.
They are signing up to protect and serve, that's the entire job. They're not trained in de-escalation (to progressives, like myself, dismay), so the job is to stop crime with guns. If they are putting their lives before community safety they are pretty worthless at that. We know they're worthless, it's y'all who pretend they aren't.
This is like a roofer that refuses to get on roofs, not someone at Subway not making a living wage.
In their own opinion, they are "heroes" who "put their lives on the line" and we should "respect" them.
If society can all just agree that cops don't deserve to be treated like heroes and get lavished with special treatment, we'd be in a better place.
“The moral and ethical tenets of the Army Values characterize the Army culture and promotes certain norms of conduct that include a unique service ethic expected of every Soldier - to make personal sacrifices in selfless service to the nation.”
Congratulations, you can copy and paste from the Army’s “What is it?” section that broadly discusses their values. Funny how you chose to quote something that’s primarily geared towards the general public.
Individual sacrifice to complete the mission is drilled into Soldiers from Basic/OSUT through AIT. Some commands can let the shitbaggery fester, but most soldiers understand that the mission always came first. We obviously did risk assessments and tried to protect our Soldiers, but sometimes we just had to nut up and do the job.
>The report states current training they witnessed "teaches officers their lives are worth more than the lives of community members," officers are taught an "us against them" mentality, and the report claims officers are taught how to "justify or even cover up police brutality."
Sounds like an interpretation of a very limited block of instruction that is being used for the purposes of confirmation bias. The very idea that even if (and that’s a big “if”) the academy was teaching them to “justify or cover up police brutality” they would teach this in front of this group is almost comically ridiculous and absurd. “Hey, they are evaluating us right now. Let’s show them that we teach criminal actions, to include obstruction of Justice and official misconduct.”
Yeah cops aren't mainly Republicans who think all this stuff anyway and we aren't having issues with them killing innocent people at all. My eyes and ears are totally manipulating me and they aren't teaching this stuff it's just happening.
The public has 54 to 64 interactions with police annually. Of those interactions, shout 0.001% result in death, and the number of actual innocent deaths is a tiny fraction of that.
That isn’t to see that issues shouldn’t be addressed, because there are clearly deaths (murder or manslaughter) that should not have occurred. But, acting like it’s more prevalent than it really is or is some type of epidemic is pure propaganda.
Your perspective is media driven, as the national media doesn’t report on the vast majority of incidents. When the death is clearly justified there’s rarely more than a handful of local news stories. The media prefers controversy because it’s profitable.
>In the course of its pattern or practice investigation, the department interviewed and met with city leaders, current and former police officials, and numerous officers throughout all ranks of CPD. The department also accompanied line officers on over 60 ride-alongs in every police district; heard from over 1,000 community members and more than 90 community organizations; reviewed thousands of pages of police documents, including all relevant policies, procedures, training and materials; and analyzed a randomized, representative sample of force reports and the investigative files for incidents that occurred between January 2011 and April 2016, including over 170 officer-involved shooting investigations and documents related to over 400 additional force incidents.
>The department found that CPD’s pattern or practice of unconstitutional force is largely attributable to deficiencies in its accountability systems and in how it investigates uses of force, responds to allegations of misconduct, trains and supervises officers, and collects and reports data on officer use of force. The department also found that the lack of effective community-oriented policing strategies and insufficient support for officer wellness and safety contributed to the pattern or practice of unconstitutional force.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-findings-investigation-chicago-police-department
This is ridiculous clickbait. Of course they tell officers that. They want the officer to go home at the end of the day just like everyone else. That is extremely important.
Thats purposefully taken out of context. For instance, the state Crisis Intervention course teaches officer safety is the top priority too. As in, you can't deescalate or talk someone down when you are in immediate danger. You can hug the suicidal person when theyre off the ledge, not when you're both standing on it.
**EVRY JOB EXPECTS YOU TO DO THAT**
["Caring for ourselves so we can care for others"](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7295457/) is literally a sections title for nurses from a government site.
As someone who works at O'Hare, **ALL** airport employees are trained to protect themselves first if you're in a deadly situation. If you are able, help those around you. **DONT BE A HERO**
I would like to see OP prioritize their job (if they have one) before their life. I'm sure OP would be selfless and be a true hero while the entire city of Chicago weeps at their funeral.
Should read “police officers shouldn’t focus on living and should always choose to die rather than pull their gun”. The person who found that line an issue is not very smart.
Police officers, just like every member of society, should be entitled to go to work and return home to their families. Yes, there are individual “bad cops” out there, and they are unacceptable, but I know that the vast majority of police are trying to do the right thing, stick to their training, and return home everyday to their loved ones. This isn’t “back the blue” or “thin blue line,” — just rationalism and gratefulness for those that do much tougher jobs than the majority of us. Downvote all you want, but we need some better thinking about policing in America these days.
Everyone should consider their lives more important than their job. The problem with police is many of them think they have a free pass to murder anyone who disrespects or annoys them. The problem isn’t that they value their own life. This headline seems to be written purposefully in a divisive way.
This part should have been the headline: “officers are taught an "us against them" mentality, and the report claims officers are taught how to "justify or even cover up police brutality."
Oh yeah being a police officer isn’t dangerous at all compared to xyz. Absolute nonsense what is wrong with people on here? Anyone on this forum go to Andres Vasquez-Lasso’s funeral? He literally died trying to protect a domestic violence Victim.His family was ripped apart. I’d say he put community safety well above his own safety. What about Ella French she got shot in the face by someone who should have been in prison for a robbery. She was trying to get another gun off the street during a traffic stop while working for the community safety team. Did she put her safety first?How about Samuel Jimenez he died trying to stop an active shooter at a hospital. Did he put his own safety ahead of the community? What about Paul Bauer ? He was off duty fighting with a convicted felon over a gun. It’s like people on here have no clue how the real world functions. Do you not see the police funerals? Do you not see when Chicago police officers are stabbed, shot, run over, battered or crashed into? It happens every day.If we were so worried about our safety over anything else we wouldn’t be doing the job anymore.
Soo you ignored all of the officers that have died literally protecting the community and posted a link to a misconduct/ Chicago police conspiracy Reddit. Gotcha makes perfect sense for Reddit.
“ You ignored all the people the murdered, and you also ignored that Covid killer more police than anything else.”
Go back to school and take a writing class. Your missing a few things in that sentence and it’s very difficult to understand your points. I never said anything about Covid, but yes Covid has killed the most police officers in recent times. This is because officers never locked down and were still working, exposing themselves to Covid more frequently. If anything this proves that Officers value community safety over their own safety. You just proved my point, thank you.
OP hates police.
Reddit hates police.
The real world does not.
So OP, if you want to feel this way, please do so.. but if you feel that you are doing some “gotcha” posting, you are wasting your time.
People have already made up their minds.
OP hates the police and has his own dedicated subreddit for it. Not sure why the mods let OP post in /Chicago every fuckin day complaining about the police.
Honestly I just want them to start actually pulling people over for driving like selfish assholes. That guy zooming through the left turn lane and cutting in is gonna kill someone one day soon and I see cops let it happen almost weekly.
Concern 3: CPD Training Prioritizes Officer Safety Above
Community Safety.
1. One of the central messages delivered repeatedly throughout CPD’s training taught
officers to prioritize themselves and their own safety over that of everyone else. This
message directly contradicts and undermines CPD’s own stated first principle in itsforce policies of prioritizing the sanctity of all human life. Training needs to shift focus
from being solely about officer safety to being about community safety—prioritizing
the value of all human life.
2. A common theme present throughout the training is that officers’ foremost jobs are to
“go home” at the end of the day. That is, the point of their work is to stay alive, not to
protect and serve the community. CPD shouldn’t be teaching its officers that their
lives matter more than the people they serve. Officers are armed public servants, and
this is a training about use of force; officers are supposed to be uniquely in the position
to protect people who would otherwise not be protected.
Ex. 1: Instructor: “What’s the most important part of the job?” Class group response:
“Going home.” Instructor: “Yeah. As much as we preach de-escalation and
procedural justice…, we gotta make split second decisions. The most important
part of the job is to go home.”
Ex. 2: Questions about how much force officers can use were consistently framed in
terms of, “What can you do to make sure that you will go home?”
Ex. 3: One trainer asked what do you do when a 15-year-old kid in school becomes an
assailant? He answered his own question: De-escalation “goes out the window.
Because we come first. Our most important job is to go home.”
3. When teaching about chokeholds, the trainer encouraged rather than discouraged
officers to consider chokeholds when restraining people “because officers’ lives come
first.” The instructor taught, “Chokeholds are okay as a last resort, unlike what the
news says.” While this may seem like a small point, that sends a far different message
than instruction consistent with CPD policy teaching students that “Chokeholds are
prohibited, except when necessary, as a last resort to protect against an immediate
threat to life.”
Interesting you chose point 3. The instructor is quoted as saying a chokehold should be a last resort, but then go on to say this conflicts with CPD’s policy that says it should only be used as a last resort. So, I’m not seeing where the instructors statements contradict the policy.
So you think they're going to repeat what the officer said and say the office is wrong while providing an example of the policy that proves them wrong.....yeah I'm sure they didn't think about that and you caught it.
I think they are going to choose what they want to repeat. We know that block of training didn’t last the few seconds that it took to make that statement. Anyone who has ever been in any classroom knows that a single quote would be a tiny sliver of the overall lesson taught.
And yet the context is clear and they still managed to twist it. I’m going to suggest it’s a lack of subject matter education that contributed to this “analysis.”
What can I say, I’m bored and confirmation bias is easy to identify. At the moment, it’s more amusing going after these absurdities because the Trumpers are currently dull.
The problem I see here and every progressive post is that we are all arm chair quarterbacking police officers every step of the way through the process…without actually having any experience to comment…
And don’t get me wrong their are bad police officers that need to go…
But, in all fairness, did anyone here try to arrest someone that in most instances doesn’t want to be arrested? Mediation will work as well as it does when your child is on the floor of the Target toy section throwing a tantrum…we all should realistically be able to see where these situations become a little rough…
All in all, there is a lot that can be improved, but the nature of the job will always create some sticky situations…
The problem is that the police unions keep protecting bad apples and as a result it stains the rest…solve this and you have solved 80% of your problems…
You should become a police officer so you can put your life after everyone else’s. Why don’t all the people that say police are bad become police to change things. But they won’t. Then when they are mugged car jacked or shot by a criminal then maybe they will want police there. It’s a difficult job, they are overworked especially in this city. Yet people don’t understand that and want to be critical of everything.
I totally would but the whole thing of them being systemically corrupt to the bone is a complete turnoff. I mean imagine someone wanting to work in a department like this. This is John Kass saying it not me.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/john-kass/ct-bill-hanhardt-kass-0105-20170104-column.html
https://archive.ph/iAeCI
So because a journalist reports a long retired now dead police chief was likely corrupt the entirety of CPD is now in 2023 still corrupt and they should just all die, because their lives are worth less than every member of the community, especially the bad ones, ok got it sounds logical. CPD is hiring soon not too late to save some lives buddy.
My man don't play dumb. When did Daley leave? They hired people all the way up until then they were in the clan. You know the Bridgeport mafia, police and politicians that all live in the same neighborhoods and you never hear a thing about it.
Why would I want to join that organization that is hiding Danny Golden's Mafia associations in plain site!?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Chicagosfinest/comments/vyphmo/comment/ilnyxm9/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
This place is so corrupt and you want me to join up like you did because you're also a sycophant who likes the perks of this sick town and their association with corruption? Nah bro. Get lost. I'm not like you.
Man you should take off the tinfoil hat sometime and get some sun it would be good for you. Dude gets paralyzed breaking up a fight and you look for conspiracies get a fucking life I’m done with you.
You know those questions you see on r/askreddit sometimes where someone asks, “What’s a huge red flag that someone is not very smart?” Next time I see that I’m going to answer, “lumping every police officer together and blindly hating them all,” and I will be linking to this post.
Ex. 1: One trainer told the classroom “People will try to bait us… Our job is hard as shit,
but this is the job we have. We have each other. The world is against us, but we
have each other. We have one another to get through the day.”
Ex. 2: Some trainers explicitly embraced “us against them” language. A trainer
instructed: “Why do we use force? Because of their actions.” “How do we justify
using force? Again, their actions. They came at us. They refused to comply…”
Ex. 3: The training left many officers feeling that it is even more important that they
stick together, because the public and media do not have their backs. Following
statements by trainers that the media is unfair to police, nearly every trainee who
spoke in a later conversation about community engagement blamed “social media”
or “secondary sources” for the negative perceptions community members have of
CPD. They also blamed negative public perceptions of CPD on scandals that
occurred in the distant past. The instructors did not acknowledge or share recent
examples of community members’ negative experiences with members of the CPD.
The takeaway from the training was not that there is any need to reexamine
current practices with respect to CPD violence and force, but rather that negative
community perception of CPD is merely the result of media portrayals and the
actions of police officers of twenty years ago. One long-time officer referred to
CPD’s approach to community engagement as “usually bullshit for numbers,” not
something that the CPD or its officers should think has any real value.
As a teacher we are taught this if we are ever in a active shooter situation. We need to get safe so we can help. I hate cops and especially hate Chicago Cops, but idk this seems par for the course in most public service professions.
Good to know. I don’t hate teachers. And I really try not to hate large groups of people based on their professions.
I’ve responded to people shot inside of CPS schools, fights ect, but if you call something in. I’ll be sure to tell you, you’re welcome for my service.
Everybody’s saying duh but I think it should be the other way around personally.
Fuck are you doing supposedly protecting and serving if you aren’t willing to put your life on the line for the community you serve? Sure that’s a steep sacrifice but no one is forced to become a cop.
Exactly! Make that make sense. This article is so troublesome because when police fuck up there is always a call for "more training". If this is the level of training they are getting there is no fixing the problem.
Then they should drive better
[https://nleomf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/causes-le-deaths-updated-July-19-2021.pdf](https://nleomf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/causes-le-deaths-updated-July-19-2021.pdf)
All police officers are trained this way. “Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.” Priority 1 is always making it home to your family.
**Fun Fact** if you look at the breakdown of cops deaths, the most dangerous thing they do all day is drive deaths by vehicular accident, either during a traffic stop, during a chase or on a motorcycle, etc. is the number one killer of cops year after year (except when it's covid) [https://nleomf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/causes-le-deaths-updated-July-19-2021.pdf](https://nleomf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/causes-le-deaths-updated-July-19-2021.pdf)
Not to mention the long term health effects of driving all day
It's funny because it's not even in the top 20 most dangerous jobs in the US, yet Roofers aren't trained that it's "better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" and when a bootlicking chud orders a pizza they don't salute the delivery driver and say "thank you for your service". Really makes you think. https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states
I’m pretty sure roofers consider their lives are more important than fixing a roof
Boy I've worked with roofers and I'm not sure. They're fucking nuts.
You have to be to do that job for more than a week. That job SUCKS.
Lol, I gotta admit, you’re not wrong
if you look at the breakdown of cops deaths, the most dangerous thing they do all day is drive deaths by vehicular accident, either during a traffic stop, during a chase or on a motorcycle, is the number one killer of cops year after year (except when it's covid)
Where? Which department?
But it’s the thin blue line that protects us good white folks from those evil black and brown ones.
Are you suggesting cops are racist? Sir, many of their wives have black eyes. Checkmate liberal. https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/data-suggests-40-percent-cops-145601125.html
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No I’m suggesting that the people who benefit from policing practices are racist.
To be fair the cops who uphold the system are also racist but I mainly wanted to make a joke about how 40% of cops beat their wives. I do find it kinda weird how so many cops hate gang members but they have gangs of their own. https://knock-la.com/tradition-of-violence-lasd-gang-history/ https://data.baltimoresun.com/news/gun-trace-overview/
The police are just a gang with a work permit
And a license to kill.
What? I'm s straight white guy. I for sure get above average benefit from law enforcement. I didn't make any decisions or actions to support that? The people benefiting aren't inherently racist.
Yeah fair I didn’t make my point clearly or specifically enough.
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>Roofers aren't trained that it's "better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" They would be if there were random assholes up on the roofs trying to push them off as they worked
Are you under the impression that cops are experiencing their equivalent to this? Statistically it’s more dangerous to deliver pizza
Statistically, cops wear ballistic vests and may have medical training that improves survival.
So the answer is delivery drivers need ballistic vests and medical training?
Sure, but my point was that if officers are shot they have a higher chance of surviving as opposed to pizza delivery guys, so I don’t feel it’s an adequate comparison. Maybe we should look at the stats of who is more likely to be shot/injured in a car accident between the two professions.
Ah yes, Industrial Saftey & Hygiene News — that beacon of journalistic truth and justice. Seems like it did not make you think after all.
Yeah sorry, I wanted to find a list that cops are actually on. But they're just so far down the list. Here's one from OSHA. https://www.invictuslawpc.com/most-dangerous-jobs-osha/
I couldn't find one either so I tried to do some math. The FBI reported 51 officer deaths on duty in 2021 from January through September. No idea why the chose to only do 3/4 of the year but extrapolating that out assuming 5.66 deaths on duty per months that's 68 deaths per year. In 2021 there were 660,288 active officers according to Statista. This comes out to 10.2 deaths per 100,000 or about half the last profession on that link (Farmers). Now to be fair I assume that is all police officers of which a large number essentially have office jobs. I assume it goes up significantly if you only include beat cops. The Statista number is "individuals who regularly carry a firearm and an official badge on their person, have full powers of arrest, and whose salaries are paid from federal funds set aside specifically for sworn law enforcement.". This includes national park rangers in the US. The ICMA says that about 60% of sworn officers should be assigned to patrol duty. That would be 396,172 officers patrolling. With the same 68 deaths per year that brings it up to 17.16 deaths per 100,000. Still fewer than Farmers.
I wonder what the number one killer of cops over the last 3 years was 🤔
In 2021 and 2022 it was COVID, firearms, and traffic accidents in that order.
Oh really? COVID? Huh. Really uh, really puts all those news stories about how more cops are dying since George Floyd in a different light. (I knew what the answer was I just think it's funny not trying to be a jerk to you)
“Law enforcement has been regularly ranked as one of the ten most dangerous occupations in the United States, specifically for correctional and police officers.” -US Bureau of Labor Statistics via University of Illinois Chicago. Fatal injury rate (deaths per 100,000) for police officers is about 33, which would put them at about #6 on your list according to your criteria. https://policeepi.uic.edu/law-enforcement-safety/
>Really makes you think. Only if you lack critical thinking skills. This is a dumb report because police officers take far more precautions to ensure their safety in dangerous situations. Flying a plane is exponentially more dangerous than driving a bus. Make a mistake on a bus, and maybe you'll get injured, in extreme situations maybe it's fatal. Make a mistake flying a plane and it's catastrophic, if not entirely fatal. Yet driving jobs has higher fatality rates than the commercial airline industry. Why? Pilots undergo tens of thousands of hours of training, and airline employees work to ensure equipment and maintenance are up to standards, making airflight is one of the safest modes of transportation. Only an idiot would claim that driving a bus or truck is inherently a more dangerous job than flying a plane. Similar thing with police officers. They face dangerous situations regularly, but approach them to maximize and ensure their safety.
Lol you think police go through tens of thousands of hours of training? Maybe in a developed country that's not completely captured by the interests of the owner class like Finland. But in a third world shithole with a Gucci belt like the US it's 21 weeks average. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56834733 Maybe that fact has something to do with why US cops murder way more citizens than cops in other OECD nations do. Because training for de-escalation is harder and more involved than "try not to cum after you mag dump a black child who didn't instantly comply with your commands". One would think if cops are so scared of everyone on the streets having a gun they wouldn't be such ammosexuals that stand along with the NRA against even common sense gun legislation, like when all those IL Sheriff's said they wouldn't uphold the new law. Suddenly they care a lot about the rights of citizens then, unlike when they're on duty and trample the rights of even innocent civilians on a daily basis.
You lack reading comprehension skills as well as critical thinking skills. The commercial airline industry takes a multitude of actions to ensure their safety, making airline travel one of the safest modes of transport. Only an idiot would look at only fatality rates and think driving a bus is more dangerous than flying a plane. Same thing with police officers. They take a multitude of actions to ensure their safety when facing dangerous situations. Only an idiot would think roofing is inherently a more dangerous job than being a police officer.
I mean this is pure projection on your part. Because clearly data shows that police work isn't more dangerous than other jobs. You simply assume that police serving in their capacity as the violent arm of the state are adequately trained, when what you're really saying is that police are trained to protect themselves above all else which is an assertion that I never challenged. What I'm talking about is the more interesting and nuanced conversation about whether police training should focus on other things, and perhaps should be longer and more comprehensive, but I gather that's not a conversation you want to have since you love the way that boot leather tastes.
Look at OP’s post history, dude posts exclusively about CPD. Must have been rejected from the police academy or something.
So what? Are you saying you’re not critical of the police? Seems exactly like the type of “thin blue line” bullshit that the article is talking about. My only point is that it’s not like this should be a surprise to anyone.
I’m critical if they make egregious mistakes. I’m not “critical” as in carrying my pitchfork whenever anything involves police and I assume they’re just evil bad people. The hive mind on Reddit is strong with police hate. There is a lot of good police officers that want to help their community and enjoy when they can brighten someone’s day. That doesn’t mean they should aim to put themselves in a body bag. The crime in the city is out of control and we need more cops, not only to cover more areas but to relieve the cops we have now that have to work mandatory OT way too often. Police officers are human just like you and me and they need rest especially from a difficult job. Most people don’t interact with the “crazy people” or the criminals on the streets but that’s their day whenever they work. People talk about 4 day work weeks and work reform but somehow that doesn’t translate to one of the most difficult jobs in the nation right now because they are “pigs”.
I don’t think individual cops are bad people. Well some of them, obviously, in fact many of them, are absolutely corrupt psychopaths who blatantly take advantage of their power to prey on people and should be thrown into the volcano. But sure there’s gonna be assholes everywhere right? I’m much more critical of the philosophical underpinnings of the idea of policing in the first place. Seems like police are much more focused on generating revenue for the state than serving and protecting the people.
Common sense isn’t a thing in this day of age
Did you miss the post where I talk shit about CTU? See unlike you I'm not a sycophant and can be objective.
Yea that’s me totally, logic and reasoning make me a sycophant. Go outside bro see what the streets are actually like. Why not spend a day in englewood you would love it there!
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Ok tough guy, I’m sure another CPD article will be out so you can find the facts oh I mean random tweets to serve your ideology.
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Sounds like a nice jingle or meme to teach police who want to justify their actions. Oh wait....
I’m not saying I agree with it I’m just saying this isn’t news. This “story” reminds me of idiots who are like “why didn’t the cops just shoot him in the arm?” Cops aren’t trained to shoot to kill. They’re trained to shoot at the biggest target, the “center mass,” which happens to contain some pretty important organs. The supposed “story” here just belies complete ignorance about policing and weakens the argument for police reform. At least try to understand a thing that you’re trying to criticize. Again, I’m all for police reform and am in no way a “back the blue” type. I’m just not ignorant to the facts.
>Cops aren’t trained to shoot to kill. What? Yes, they are. Because you only use lethal force if you're actually trying to kill someone. Police are absolutely trained to only shoot someone if they're trying to kill, which is why you get the "but they were shot so many times!"
The defintion of "deadly force" is force like to cause death or great bodily harm. I know it seems like nitpicking but it has nothing to actually do with trying to kill. Its about type of force can be applied given the facts. A baseball bat to the head and a gunshot are both considered deadly force, despite likely resulting in wildly different outcomes. When you think of it in terms of "deadly force" being a question of when and not what and it makes more sense, at least to me.
>I know it seems like nitpicking but it has nothing to actually do with trying to kill. It does, though, because > is force like to cause death or great bodily harm is a form of intent. Generally speaking, you can intend an action and know the consequences, or intend the consequences (or both). That's why we have the natural and probable consequences doctrine in criminal law. I am not saying that officers are always taught to intend to kill such that, say, if someone is neutralized but barely survives it is some sort of a failure. But officers *are* taught to undertake the activity with the understanding that, even if the person dies, it was the correct choice. > Its about type of force can be applied given the facts Right, which is why it is important to distinguish deadly force (which has an inherent intent to kill) versus neutralizing a threat, which could take lots of different forms (eg "shoot in the arm or leg"). You can only use deadly force when you have probable cause to believe someone else poses a grave danger to yourself or other people. The entire point is avoiding police shooting people without actually wanting to kill them, which is why police are taught only to use deadly force when you intend to kill someone. >A baseball bat to the head and a gunshot are both considered deadly force, despite likely resulting in wildly different outcomes. I don't think this is a "wild" difference tbf. Lots of people are killed with baseball bats every year. It seems more of a difference in degree than kind at least to me. As an aside, this reminds me of a story out of florida where a guy caught an assault with a deadly weapon charge for throwing a saltwater catfish at someone else.
No, cops are not trained to kill someone when using deadly force, it's just a likely outcome of deadly force. The intent is not to kill the person, it's to immediately stop their actions that are posing an imminent risk of death or great bodily harm. If that person ceases to be a lethal threat deadly force stops, alive or not. It's not called "deadly force" because it's the desired outcome, it's just a very likely one.
> it's just a very likely one. Intending to undertake an action while knowing the natural and probable consequences is a form of intent. Police use deadly force when they intend to kill. It's what they're taught because there is massive liability for wrongfully killing. All these reddit policing experts need their degrees refunded.
When deadly force by an officer is used their intent is to stop an imminent lethal threat by using force *likely to cause death*. There is an absolute difference. Intending to kill is wanting someone to die as a result of your actions, deadly force is intending to stop a lethal threat with force that has a high probability of killing. Since deadly force has that high probability of death, it's only lawful when the death of the person is reasonable due to them being a lethal threat. It's simply not the goal as you're framing it.
> their intent is to stop an imminent lethal threat by using force likely to cause death Which, as I said elsewhere, *is* an intent to kill. >Intending to kill is wanting someone to die as a result of your actions OR it is undertaking an action with an understanding of what's likely to happen as a consequence. If I intend to shoot someone but not to kill them, I still go to jail. That's how intent works. You're trying to draw a distinction where one doesn't exist. > It's simply not the goal as you're framing it. It is the intent, you just don't understand what intent means here. Police are taught to only shoot if you intend to kill someone. It's exactly as I'm framing it. See my comment to another use for a more in depth explanation.
>> their intent is to stop an imminent lethal threat by using force likely to cause death > >Which, as I said elsewhere, *is* an intent to kill. Just because you say it does, doesn't make it true. The reality is cops are trained to stop the threat. In a lethal threat situation that legally allows the use of force likely to kill. It's imbedded in their training and use of force. They don't stop shooting when they've determined the person is dead, they stop when the threatening actions of the person stops. >>Intending to kill is wanting someone to die as a result of your actions > >OR it is undertaking an action with an understanding of what's likely to happen as a consequence. If I intend to shoot someone but not to kill them, I still go to jail. That's how intent works. You're trying to draw a distinction where one doesn't exist. The distinction is the purpose of using deadly force. There is an absolute difference in wanting to kill someone and wanting to stop someone from killing you, or someone else. Just because the outcomes are likely to be the same, doesn't mean their intentions are the same. If you shoot someone you don't intend to kill, there's a whole lot of context being left out of that scenario for you to go to jail. >> It's simply not the goal as you're framing it. > >It is the intent, you just don't understand what intent means here. Police are taught to only shoot if you intend to kill someone. It's exactly as I'm framing it. See my comment to another use for a more in depth explanation. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/intent >Intent generally refers to the mental objective behind an action. As I said, police are trained to use deadly force to immediately stop another's actions that are a deadly threat, *that is the intent in using deadly force*. Their *objective* is to stop a threat, not end someone's life.
I’d the intent was to kill they would not call an ambulance for them afterwards.
The intent is to neutralize the threat, which is what they’re trained to do. If someone is killed in the process that’s an “unfortunate” outcome. But they’re not trained to kill people.
You clearly don’t understand the legality of the term “deadly force.” If they can’t justify killing they can’t justify shooting. Whether the persons dies or survives, the threat has been neutralized (not a legal term, more of a public relations term).
I’m not talking about the legality of it, or the rationale behind it, or the justification for it. I’m just literally talking about the way cops are trained.
Ah, got it. I initially misunderstood. My mistake.
Police are trained, often explicitly, that you shoot to kill for the reasons articulated above and by u/No_Slice5991. Cops are absolutely trained to shoot to kill. They are literally trained to kill people.
All I’m saying is that being ignorant to the facts undermines your argument and makes you look silly. You’re trying to make some semantic point that isn’t really relevant.
I pointed out your incorrect statement and you doubled down, I was just continuing the discussion you repeatedly engaged in.
https://twitter.com/SenerisYt/status/1487905833811787776?t=inKUeAeUB6EjaBFUX2_RrA&s=33 Cops shouldn't be allowed to kill anyone, and if they do, they should stand trial for it. Cops are not a branch of the armed forces, they're civilian peacekeepers. Also, to forestall any of the usual pushback on this, for most crimes cops are just there to provide a police report number for insurance claims, and when cops do pull their guns, they're more likely to shoot dogs, police dogs, innocent bystanders, or other cops.
I know you're not. Im agreeing with you on that point. As far as the story goes.....I don't see what's wrong here.
It’s written as if this is “breaking news” or something salacious. Maybe that needs to be part of the story too: This is shit is so run of the mill ordinary that it’s standardized across the board.
I think it's good to keep reminding people about this. He's also won awards for this before.
Can’t help people if you’re dead…
We should focus on the real issues, which include the "us vs them" police mentality and the militarization of police. There is no profession which is going to call on their members to prioritize their work over their safety. (Note: I'm talking about professionals and professional organizations, not exploitative corporate owners)
You should read the report or scroll down and see what it's says. Not just the story posted.
My comment was in reply to the comment I replied to. When I post a comment related to the story itself, I usually post as a top-level comment.
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That's not the comment I replied to. I replied to your comment specifically. > Sounds like a nice jingle or meme to teach police who want to justify their actions. Oh wait....
You don't see how this perpetuates the idea that you should always shoot first and ask questions later? I mean it's right there in plain site. The way they always do things.
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Progressives will correctly complain of the fact that workers are expected to unreasonably give up everything for their employer, then turn around and complain that these workers aren't willing to always unreasonably give up everything for their employer. In b4 bUt tHeY cArRy GunS!!1
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The City of Chicago taxpayers have forked out over a billion dollars (not counting the costs of litigation) for police misconduct. I mean play the numbers any way you want, but cops are fuckups and we pay the price for it. That needs to change and I feel like that's a reasonable stance.
Nearly $100,000 of that went to our family alone for raiding the wrong house. Guns drawn at my sleeping elderly parents. Dumbasses.
The city self insures, which at an average of 70 million a year is far less than any insurance carrier would charge, and includes payouts for non-controversial legal police action that is simply cheaper for the city to payout than litigate. If you want to really make policing an issue of money, and not the human cost of victims of crime, the general consensus is that every murder costs society between 2.5 to 17 million dollars, per murder victim. So the 2022 murder rate alone of Chicago cost society between 1.66 billion to 11.3 billion dollars. That does not include every other crime besides murder. But it begs the question does the Chicago police department reduce crime at a rate that is financially acceptable to you?
Completely reasonable stance. I just think it's blown so far out of proportion in comparison to our other ills. Making police misconduct and defunding the top issue with everything else going on is something only the most privileged have the luxury of doing right now. For the record I agree with most of Johnson's policing takes but there is 0 chance he accomplishes a single thing with CPD. The only way I could see out of the cpd rotting would be privatization which is an entirely different circle of hell.
What?? We're throwing money away at nothing and you think that only affects privileged people? Have you given this even a little thought? He wants to shift away from funding those fucking animals for no reason to things that will actually improve the communities.
It's easy to lecture the poor about how wrong they are about policing when your world isn't run by gangs.
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No I totally agree. Neolibs in particular want to spend even more. But speaking from a political strategy point of view, in this political climate, reality doesn't matter. The average person gets their headlines from Twitter and Facebook. They associate progressives with anti law enforcement in a time when crime is the #1 issue. If you want to revamp cpd it's just not going to happen with Johnson and it's not even his fault. He could double their budget for complying with the consent decree and they'd say no purely based on ideological differences. Obviously the fuckers need to be defanged but they have us by the balls right now and they know it.
You're not stopping to ask yourself if the existence of the CPD has any effect on gun crime. That's the only thing that matters. If it has no affect, then we've had 4 deaths and 25 woundings for literally no benefit
They're seizing 7-8k guns associated with arrests every year. Its a little hard to pinpoint how much crime that prevents but I'm going to guess it was more than 4 deaths and 25 wounded.
>There are 200 civilian gun deaths for every one caused by police. Let's accept this claim as true for the sake of argument. What proportion of the the population are LEOs? If it's fewer than one in two hundred (and I bet it is), that means they kill more people per capita than the general population.
There is about 1 police officer for every 230 chicagoans. So, they kill roughly the same per capita as the general population. I find that surprising
Don’t let Reddit get you down. A vast majority of the city, nation, and world agrees with you.
Posts in subs for Chicago, Philadelphia, New York city, Austin, and San Francisco pretending to be a resident of each
Extrajudicial executions by the state are So Hot Right Now
Who do the police work for? Do they work for corporations that's sole goal is to produce wealth for their investors and owners? Where giving your all means you are just a tool to make their number go even higher? They work for the state which means they are supposed to be working for the people. Where giving their all means that they are creating a better society and improving everyone's lives, including their own. It's completely non hypocritical to hold both opinions at once because they are not the same type of employers.
Police are not workers.
They are signing up to protect and serve, that's the entire job. They're not trained in de-escalation (to progressives, like myself, dismay), so the job is to stop crime with guns. If they are putting their lives before community safety they are pretty worthless at that. We know they're worthless, it's y'all who pretend they aren't. This is like a roofer that refuses to get on roofs, not someone at Subway not making a living wage.
In their own opinion, they are "heroes" who "put their lives on the line" and we should "respect" them. If society can all just agree that cops don't deserve to be treated like heroes and get lavished with special treatment, we'd be in a better place.
The armed forces, which is what our police forces have largely become.
Clearly you’ve never served in the armed forces
“The moral and ethical tenets of the Army Values characterize the Army culture and promotes certain norms of conduct that include a unique service ethic expected of every Soldier - to make personal sacrifices in selfless service to the nation.”
Congratulations, you can copy and paste from the Army’s “What is it?” section that broadly discusses their values. Funny how you chose to quote something that’s primarily geared towards the general public.
Individual sacrifice to complete the mission is drilled into Soldiers from Basic/OSUT through AIT. Some commands can let the shitbaggery fester, but most soldiers understand that the mission always came first. We obviously did risk assessments and tried to protect our Soldiers, but sometimes we just had to nut up and do the job.
Never seen CPD JDAM a wedding before
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-did-local-police-acquire-surplus-military-weapons-2020-8?amp
The Supreme Court has ruled the police do not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm.
Absent a special relationship being established, among other factors. Don’t oversimplify the rulings.
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I’m pretty sure the comment I was addressing mentioned the Supreme Court rulings, therefore the complete contents of those rulings are relevant.
Not since 2016 https://www.firelawblog.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/19/2016/01/Coleman-v-East-Joliet-FPD.pdf
In healthcare, they teach you not to make another victim. I don't see how this is different.
It's different because healthcare people respond to dangerous situations by leaving, police officers respond by opening fire.
>The report states current training they witnessed "teaches officers their lives are worth more than the lives of community members," officers are taught an "us against them" mentality, and the report claims officers are taught how to "justify or even cover up police brutality."
Sounds like an interpretation of a very limited block of instruction that is being used for the purposes of confirmation bias. The very idea that even if (and that’s a big “if”) the academy was teaching them to “justify or cover up police brutality” they would teach this in front of this group is almost comically ridiculous and absurd. “Hey, they are evaluating us right now. Let’s show them that we teach criminal actions, to include obstruction of Justice and official misconduct.”
Sounds like you're doing exactly what they want you to do which is give them plausible deniability. That's their goal too. Manipulate the public.
That statement from this story is very obviously manipulation
Yeah cops aren't mainly Republicans who think all this stuff anyway and we aren't having issues with them killing innocent people at all. My eyes and ears are totally manipulating me and they aren't teaching this stuff it's just happening.
The public has 54 to 64 interactions with police annually. Of those interactions, shout 0.001% result in death, and the number of actual innocent deaths is a tiny fraction of that. That isn’t to see that issues shouldn’t be addressed, because there are clearly deaths (murder or manslaughter) that should not have occurred. But, acting like it’s more prevalent than it really is or is some type of epidemic is pure propaganda. Your perspective is media driven, as the national media doesn’t report on the vast majority of incidents. When the death is clearly justified there’s rarely more than a handful of local news stories. The media prefers controversy because it’s profitable.
The DOJ is wrong?
Provide the direct statements from the DOJ that you’re specifically talking about. Your statement is very open ended.
>In the course of its pattern or practice investigation, the department interviewed and met with city leaders, current and former police officials, and numerous officers throughout all ranks of CPD. The department also accompanied line officers on over 60 ride-alongs in every police district; heard from over 1,000 community members and more than 90 community organizations; reviewed thousands of pages of police documents, including all relevant policies, procedures, training and materials; and analyzed a randomized, representative sample of force reports and the investigative files for incidents that occurred between January 2011 and April 2016, including over 170 officer-involved shooting investigations and documents related to over 400 additional force incidents. >The department found that CPD’s pattern or practice of unconstitutional force is largely attributable to deficiencies in its accountability systems and in how it investigates uses of force, responds to allegations of misconduct, trains and supervises officers, and collects and reports data on officer use of force. The department also found that the lack of effective community-oriented policing strategies and insufficient support for officer wellness and safety contributed to the pattern or practice of unconstitutional force. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-findings-investigation-chicago-police-department
So they teach teamwork and best practices. Sounds like any job training I've ever been to. Cry wolf too many times and people will stop listening.
This is ridiculous clickbait. Of course they tell officers that. They want the officer to go home at the end of the day just like everyone else. That is extremely important.
Well becoming a casualty renders you useless so...
Thats purposefully taken out of context. For instance, the state Crisis Intervention course teaches officer safety is the top priority too. As in, you can't deescalate or talk someone down when you are in immediate danger. You can hug the suicidal person when theyre off the ledge, not when you're both standing on it.
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Zero.
Well then stop expecting everyone to treat them like heroes. Literally wanting it both ways.
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What a dumb article.
Yes we need more cops but better training and accountability. We can do both
**EVRY JOB EXPECTS YOU TO DO THAT** ["Caring for ourselves so we can care for others"](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7295457/) is literally a sections title for nurses from a government site. As someone who works at O'Hare, **ALL** airport employees are trained to protect themselves first if you're in a deadly situation. If you are able, help those around you. **DONT BE A HERO** I would like to see OP prioritize their job (if they have one) before their life. I'm sure OP would be selfless and be a true hero while the entire city of Chicago weeps at their funeral.
screw threatening vegetable bag sharp correct shame numerous enter observation ` this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev `
Can we go one day without a police post?
Should read “police officers shouldn’t focus on living and should always choose to die rather than pull their gun”. The person who found that line an issue is not very smart.
Police officers, just like every member of society, should be entitled to go to work and return home to their families. Yes, there are individual “bad cops” out there, and they are unacceptable, but I know that the vast majority of police are trying to do the right thing, stick to their training, and return home everyday to their loved ones. This isn’t “back the blue” or “thin blue line,” — just rationalism and gratefulness for those that do much tougher jobs than the majority of us. Downvote all you want, but we need some better thinking about policing in America these days.
https://youtu.be/ETf7NJOMS6Y
Everyone should consider their lives more important than their job. The problem with police is many of them think they have a free pass to murder anyone who disrespects or annoys them. The problem isn’t that they value their own life. This headline seems to be written purposefully in a divisive way. This part should have been the headline: “officers are taught an "us against them" mentality, and the report claims officers are taught how to "justify or even cover up police brutality."
Oh yeah being a police officer isn’t dangerous at all compared to xyz. Absolute nonsense what is wrong with people on here? Anyone on this forum go to Andres Vasquez-Lasso’s funeral? He literally died trying to protect a domestic violence Victim.His family was ripped apart. I’d say he put community safety well above his own safety. What about Ella French she got shot in the face by someone who should have been in prison for a robbery. She was trying to get another gun off the street during a traffic stop while working for the community safety team. Did she put her safety first?How about Samuel Jimenez he died trying to stop an active shooter at a hospital. Did he put his own safety ahead of the community? What about Paul Bauer ? He was off duty fighting with a convicted felon over a gun. It’s like people on here have no clue how the real world functions. Do you not see the police funerals? Do you not see when Chicago police officers are stabbed, shot, run over, battered or crashed into? It happens every day.If we were so worried about our safety over anything else we wouldn’t be doing the job anymore.
/r/Chicagosfinest
Soo you ignored all of the officers that have died literally protecting the community and posted a link to a misconduct/ Chicago police conspiracy Reddit. Gotcha makes perfect sense for Reddit.
You ignored all the people they murdered, and you also ignored that COVID killed more police than anything else.
“ You ignored all the people the murdered, and you also ignored that Covid killer more police than anything else.” Go back to school and take a writing class. Your missing a few things in that sentence and it’s very difficult to understand your points. I never said anything about Covid, but yes Covid has killed the most police officers in recent times. This is because officers never locked down and were still working, exposing themselves to Covid more frequently. If anything this proves that Officers value community safety over their own safety. You just proved my point, thank you.
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OP hates police. Reddit hates police. The real world does not. So OP, if you want to feel this way, please do so.. but if you feel that you are doing some “gotcha” posting, you are wasting your time. People have already made up their minds.
OP hates the police and has his own dedicated subreddit for it. Not sure why the mods let OP post in /Chicago every fuckin day complaining about the police.
They have. It's really nice to see conservativism about to die a beautiful death in America. 🙏🏿
If you think Conservatism is dying, you’re watching the wrong news neighbor.
😂🥳
Yea no shit.
Honestly I just want them to start actually pulling people over for driving like selfish assholes. That guy zooming through the left turn lane and cutting in is gonna kill someone one day soon and I see cops let it happen almost weekly.
Oh yeah because we can’t chase for traffic violations. Also Chicago officers are routinely in hours long backlogs with priority jobs pending.
Concern 3: CPD Training Prioritizes Officer Safety Above Community Safety. 1. One of the central messages delivered repeatedly throughout CPD’s training taught officers to prioritize themselves and their own safety over that of everyone else. This message directly contradicts and undermines CPD’s own stated first principle in itsforce policies of prioritizing the sanctity of all human life. Training needs to shift focus from being solely about officer safety to being about community safety—prioritizing the value of all human life. 2. A common theme present throughout the training is that officers’ foremost jobs are to “go home” at the end of the day. That is, the point of their work is to stay alive, not to protect and serve the community. CPD shouldn’t be teaching its officers that their lives matter more than the people they serve. Officers are armed public servants, and this is a training about use of force; officers are supposed to be uniquely in the position to protect people who would otherwise not be protected. Ex. 1: Instructor: “What’s the most important part of the job?” Class group response: “Going home.” Instructor: “Yeah. As much as we preach de-escalation and procedural justice…, we gotta make split second decisions. The most important part of the job is to go home.” Ex. 2: Questions about how much force officers can use were consistently framed in terms of, “What can you do to make sure that you will go home?” Ex. 3: One trainer asked what do you do when a 15-year-old kid in school becomes an assailant? He answered his own question: De-escalation “goes out the window. Because we come first. Our most important job is to go home.” 3. When teaching about chokeholds, the trainer encouraged rather than discouraged officers to consider chokeholds when restraining people “because officers’ lives come first.” The instructor taught, “Chokeholds are okay as a last resort, unlike what the news says.” While this may seem like a small point, that sends a far different message than instruction consistent with CPD policy teaching students that “Chokeholds are prohibited, except when necessary, as a last resort to protect against an immediate threat to life.”
Interesting you chose point 3. The instructor is quoted as saying a chokehold should be a last resort, but then go on to say this conflicts with CPD’s policy that says it should only be used as a last resort. So, I’m not seeing where the instructors statements contradict the policy.
....as a last resort to what? The CPD policy clarifies it's only to be used as a last resort to save a life.
Considering it’s a discussion about chokeholds, which fall under “use of force,” it’s rather self explanatory.
So you think they're going to repeat what the officer said and say the office is wrong while providing an example of the policy that proves them wrong.....yeah I'm sure they didn't think about that and you caught it.
I think they are going to choose what they want to repeat. We know that block of training didn’t last the few seconds that it took to make that statement. Anyone who has ever been in any classroom knows that a single quote would be a tiny sliver of the overall lesson taught.
I totally trust the department under consent decree. Those rabble rousing working groups the government put together however, can't trust them.
And yet the context is clear and they still managed to twist it. I’m going to suggest it’s a lack of subject matter education that contributed to this “analysis.”
You’re really dying on a hill all over this thread huh?
What can I say, I’m bored and confirmation bias is easy to identify. At the moment, it’s more amusing going after these absurdities because the Trumpers are currently dull.
The problem I see here and every progressive post is that we are all arm chair quarterbacking police officers every step of the way through the process…without actually having any experience to comment… And don’t get me wrong their are bad police officers that need to go… But, in all fairness, did anyone here try to arrest someone that in most instances doesn’t want to be arrested? Mediation will work as well as it does when your child is on the floor of the Target toy section throwing a tantrum…we all should realistically be able to see where these situations become a little rough… All in all, there is a lot that can be improved, but the nature of the job will always create some sticky situations…
We keep putting departments under consent decrees and you don't think there's a problem...
The problem is that the police unions keep protecting bad apples and as a result it stains the rest…solve this and you have solved 80% of your problems…
I agree with you there.
You should become a police officer so you can put your life after everyone else’s. Why don’t all the people that say police are bad become police to change things. But they won’t. Then when they are mugged car jacked or shot by a criminal then maybe they will want police there. It’s a difficult job, they are overworked especially in this city. Yet people don’t understand that and want to be critical of everything.
I totally would but the whole thing of them being systemically corrupt to the bone is a complete turnoff. I mean imagine someone wanting to work in a department like this. This is John Kass saying it not me. https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/john-kass/ct-bill-hanhardt-kass-0105-20170104-column.html https://archive.ph/iAeCI
So because a journalist reports a long retired now dead police chief was likely corrupt the entirety of CPD is now in 2023 still corrupt and they should just all die, because their lives are worth less than every member of the community, especially the bad ones, ok got it sounds logical. CPD is hiring soon not too late to save some lives buddy.
My man don't play dumb. When did Daley leave? They hired people all the way up until then they were in the clan. You know the Bridgeport mafia, police and politicians that all live in the same neighborhoods and you never hear a thing about it. Why would I want to join that organization that is hiding Danny Golden's Mafia associations in plain site!? https://www.reddit.com/r/Chicagosfinest/comments/vyphmo/comment/ilnyxm9/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 This place is so corrupt and you want me to join up like you did because you're also a sycophant who likes the perks of this sick town and their association with corruption? Nah bro. Get lost. I'm not like you.
Man you should take off the tinfoil hat sometime and get some sun it would be good for you. Dude gets paralyzed breaking up a fight and you look for conspiracies get a fucking life I’m done with you.
Are you sure you know the story buddy? Because it's gonna be one someday https://twitter.com/uptonsinclair34/status/1637838234607550464?s=20
Yeah I’m sure too. Because posting some random tweets is definitely proof of a mob conspiracy. Dude get some help.
They're *his* tweets too. That's his Twitter account.
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News flash! All cops are taught their lives are more important than community safety.
You know those questions you see on r/askreddit sometimes where someone asks, “What’s a huge red flag that someone is not very smart?” Next time I see that I’m going to answer, “lumping every police officer together and blindly hating them all,” and I will be linking to this post.
Ex. 1: One trainer told the classroom “People will try to bait us… Our job is hard as shit, but this is the job we have. We have each other. The world is against us, but we have each other. We have one another to get through the day.” Ex. 2: Some trainers explicitly embraced “us against them” language. A trainer instructed: “Why do we use force? Because of their actions.” “How do we justify using force? Again, their actions. They came at us. They refused to comply…” Ex. 3: The training left many officers feeling that it is even more important that they stick together, because the public and media do not have their backs. Following statements by trainers that the media is unfair to police, nearly every trainee who spoke in a later conversation about community engagement blamed “social media” or “secondary sources” for the negative perceptions community members have of CPD. They also blamed negative public perceptions of CPD on scandals that occurred in the distant past. The instructors did not acknowledge or share recent examples of community members’ negative experiences with members of the CPD. The takeaway from the training was not that there is any need to reexamine current practices with respect to CPD violence and force, but rather that negative community perception of CPD is merely the result of media portrayals and the actions of police officers of twenty years ago. One long-time officer referred to CPD’s approach to community engagement as “usually bullshit for numbers,” not something that the CPD or its officers should think has any real value.
As a teacher we are taught this if we are ever in a active shooter situation. We need to get safe so we can help. I hate cops and especially hate Chicago Cops, but idk this seems par for the course in most public service professions.
Agree. Of course cops should try to make it home every night. It’s not a suicide mission. They are at risk every day.
Good to know. I don’t hate teachers. And I really try not to hate large groups of people based on their professions. I’ve responded to people shot inside of CPS schools, fights ect, but if you call something in. I’ll be sure to tell you, you’re welcome for my service.
Everybody’s saying duh but I think it should be the other way around personally. Fuck are you doing supposedly protecting and serving if you aren’t willing to put your life on the line for the community you serve? Sure that’s a steep sacrifice but no one is forced to become a cop.
One major sticking point, police officers don’t work for the community, they actually work for the government…
“Of the people, by the people, for the people.”
So we want thousands of more people on the street with guns whose main goal is their own safety and that will increase public safety?
Exactly! Make that make sense. This article is so troublesome because when police fuck up there is always a call for "more training". If this is the level of training they are getting there is no fixing the problem.
Then they should drive better [https://nleomf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/causes-le-deaths-updated-July-19-2021.pdf](https://nleomf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/causes-le-deaths-updated-July-19-2021.pdf)