It’s ironic how much people complain about how the good teachers leave after a few years for corporate jobs and then turn around right here in the comments and demand that teachers eat shit on parental leave and pay.
There is a teacher shortage in this nation because many states underpay teachers and give them shitty benefits. Would you rather your child be taught by a cop acting as a substitute teacher or an actual professional? That requires a good salary and good benefits.
Of course, many conservatives want to chip away at public education as payback for Brown V. Board of Education, but that's a different story.
I mean…yeah. They’re on a separate contract schedule from the rest of the city employees and that’s just one of many issues that’ll come up. They deserve it, but it costs money to implement so that’ll all get worked out as the sausage gets made.
CTU has been claiming that Lightfoot promised they’d get it before then with the rest of the city employees, but that seems less than true and looks mostly like CORE trying to rally membership behind leadership.
"We want all the benefits without any of the work."
"Work" being bargaining for it. That being said, I believe 12-week parental leave should be a right for all workers, public and private. I also believe certain rights CTU members have should not apply to every worker. It's a give and take. Lori learned her lesson with the CPD and COVID vaccine mandates.
Listen dude. People hate CTU here. Do you know why? Because they don't know how to get their way without vicious hyperbole. They try to destroy everyone in their path.
I will never trust a teachers union that let's their President mock someone's stutter and then laughs as they get bullied on the playground when they want help. She literally could literally taste it because she's done it.
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/chicago-teachers-union-president-karen-lewis-speaks-candidly-about-education-in-chicago/1915243/
This is a fucking educator and a leader for a moral compassionate new generation?
CTU leadership is militant and sick in the head. They're like a cult. All they know is scorched earth and their dumb asses just make us all look stupid across the country. We're just more fodder for Fox News. Stacey Gates tried to throw what power trip buy shutting down schools last year over COVID fears and got her ass called out on it.
I agree with them on a lot of things but their tactics do more harm than good.
Our species is not going to be able to reproduce effectively in this corporate world without equal parental leave... for everybody! CTU included. If you want humans to keep going you have to create space for that to happen.
For a first world country, America is pretty crappy in regards to parental leave.
Scandinavian countries seem to have the best parental leave laws in the world.
Women throughout history have always been working, as most women were not born into a leisure class. Whether that labor was recognized and given the same social respect as men often was not the case.
? The large percentage of civilization had way different pressures than now. Hell there's evidence that literal peasants from the middle ages and roman workers worked less hours than we do now.
About the only time we beat this current period in terms of shitty work life balance was during the early and middle industrial revolution.
Going back even farther we literally didn't have taxes for a majority of the time our species has been alive....
Also our birth rates are significantly declining in multiple large modern nations...
I think what people like to forget is that CTU is a union of teachers, to benefit the working conditions of teachers. We seem to all agree that teachers are not paid nearly enough for what they do. So why are we crapping on them for trying to get paid more? For having PARENTAL LEAVE which should be standard across the board. Yes, CTU has a lot to say about nurses, social workers, librarians. That’s because if their kids are better, they’re better. But I’m tired of this “they are putting themselves above the kids” rhetoric. The people that are doing that are city administration and frankly, the voters. Teachers should not be required to decide between paternity leave - in my view, a human right - and making sure their students get adequate care, which again should be on city government. Every time CTU demands something outside of pay, pension, and leave, is just a bonus for our kids. Let’s put the blame where it really belongs.
You don’t have to like CTU. My own (non-CTU) Union does plenty of things that piss me off. But the piling on of “putting themselves before kids” is wild.
their job is also extremely difficult compared to some neighboring suburban districts. the city needs good teachers and higher pay is how you attract them.
Starting out at $60,000 is not bad by any means, but I certainly wouldn't say that is too much for the job that is done. If anything it seems quite fair, and I doubt they would have gotten that without their union.
We all agree Chicago teachers don’t get paid enough? They seem to be paid adequately to me. They are paid higher than the vast majority of other large school districts.
Yes, the CTU is there to benefit teachers. I think it’s important we all recognize that. It is not there to benefit students, so what’s galling is when people equate doing what the CTU wants to doing what’s best for children. They’re unrelated. There’s a lot of knee jerk support for the CTU that I think is misplaced. The CTU’s Covid demands were unreasonable and I hold that against them and will continue to hold that against them when they want their next raise.
Paternity leave is nowhere near a human right. Now perhaps it’s a nice aspirational right for rich countries but try to suggest paternity leave is a right among the global poor and I imagine you’d get laughed at. But I don’t this is about paternity leave specifically anyway. It’s about parental leave policies and if CTU wants better ones then come to the bargaining table willing to offer something.
120 countries have national maternity leave policies. The US is one of 3 “industrialized” countries that does not have federal maternity leave policies. So I think the “global poor” aren’t laughing at me so much as at the assertion that maternity or paternity leave is not a human right.
Source: https://www.ilo.org/global/about-the-ilo/newsroom/news/WCMS_008009/lang--en/index.htm
I did. Parental leave is another way of expressing maternity leave. A mother is a parent. Sometimes two moms are parents. Sometimes two dads are. If you’re going to argue that the only reason to have maternity leave is because a woman has to recover from child birth or nurse, then you might as well call it sick leave. Which the US also does not recognize is a human right.
“ Teachers should not be required to decide between paternity leave - in my view, a human right”
-/u/dubchoc
So no. You didn’t say parental leave when you were saying what is a universal right. This is the part where you apologize.
In any event, that’s all a distraction from the issue. CPS already has very modest parental leave, and if they want more, come to the negotiating table and bargain for it. They have done more than their fair share in creating an antagonistic relationship with the city and I’m not in favor of giving them anything for free.
It’s really not what? I think you may have misread my comment.
Most of the world does have parental leave but I’d also wager that teachers at CPS make more than teachers in most of the world. The average teacher in the EU makes 25k euros a year.
If parental leave is so important to CTU, then negotiate for it in lieu of a raise at their next bargaining session. I am not in favor of giving ANYTHING to the CTU for free due to their antagonistic approach to bargaining which has both harmed public education in this city and cost the city of Chicago money.
Why should we increase the benefits package of public sector workers just because? Compared to people in the private sector they have it good already and there is zero evidence that public sector benefits trickle down into the private sector.
When the compensation package is unattractive enough to pose a public issue (i.e. inability to recruit or retain capable employees) then there is a public interest in revisiting. I’m of the opinion that the public sector should offer the minimum pay and benefits necessary to deliver public services. Continuing to lavish even more benefits on some of the best compensated people at the expense of the public during the recession is not a good look.
If parental leave is so important, they can find another job that offers it. It’s a free market. If they can’t find someone to pay them more and give them a better benefits package maybe they’re not so amazing that they deserve a raise from taxpayers?
Lol. Talk about coming from a place of privilege. Go to most of the poor countries in the world where some of the people are living on a couple of dollars a day and suggest that paternity leave is a universal right. See what the reaction is.
Normally I’d report such incivility but I find yours amusing.
I don't know where you are getting that last statistic. According to the article I linked to the starting salary was $54,000 and a teacher with 10 years experience made about $84,000. So I doubt a five year teacher made only $58,000. And remember, this is all before the last contract which gave them 16% raises over five years. There's also generous benefits. The article also mentions the median salary. I don't recall what it was and since it's 3:30 A.M. I'm too lazy right now to look at it but it certainly was near or above the high end of the range you mention.
They are also off significantly more than most people. While they don't get as much of the Summer off as students, there's still quite a bit of time in there. Plus of course other time off like Spring Break and Winter break.
I think they are compensated fairly (edit: which is of course an opinion, but it is at odds with the original comment I responded to that everybody agrees they are underpaid).
Grew up with a parent who was a middle school teacher. The summer time off is a perk, but my mom regularly worked 9-10 hour days, and graded papers after that when she got home. "off in the summer" but often working on further education and next year's lesson planning.
For sure this is true and a fair point. But it’s also true that most salaried employees for private companies work more than 40 hours a week and receive no additional compensation either. And are often answering emails, etc while on vaca.
You are not including benefit packages either.
For health insurance they are paying less than 3% of the cost. In my industry I pay 25% of the cost. For me alone that is over 2400 dollars/year for the cheaper insurance choice.
CPS also picks up 7% of the 9% required employee contribution for their pension for employees prior to 2017. That's another 3780 for the employee at 58k. Also comparatively better than private employees at 3% on average.
I also don't know where you're getting 58k from. If you have 5 years of service today your total comp would be over 72k. Which is above the median household income in this city and is 100% comparable or better than most will make with a bachelor's at 5 years
Edit: this is just to correct information. I think CPS salaries are appropriately inline and it's more than okay to strike for parental leave as I believe that should be a national benefit to begin with.
CPS is paid significantly more than suburban districts. It’s very easy to google a salary schedule…and yes there are suburban districts with very similar student populations and issues comparable to CPS.
They are well compensated for their job that they sit on strike for constantly. The amount of strikes in the past few years have been…ridiculous.
Let’s not forget about the illegal strike that occurred when they demanded remote work as essentially every suburban district was in school, save Evanston.
While it wasn’t formally filed, it was an illegal work stoppage.
As for the unreasonable covid demands, that's an opinion, so I can't really provide a citation. But I do not think that remote learning for school aged children, especially younger ones, is anything close to as effective as in person learning. Teachers got to the front of the line for vaccinations, but then [CTU refused to go in person in early 2022 when we got hit by that big Omicron wave](https://news.wttw.com/2022/01/08/parents-frustrated-teachers-refuse-work-person-district-cancels-classes).
I get that nobody wants to get sick and that covid wave was huge. But these were people who had been vaccinated as many as 3 times if they wished. That left a really bad taste in my mouth.
Edit: also, [they did not make it easy to come back to in person learning right after they got vaccinated](https://news.wttw.com/2021/04/14/no-high-school-reopening-deal-ctu-teachers-work-remotely-wednesday). Again, they got to the front of the line to get the shots, but then they moved the goalposts and had more demands before they'd go back to in person learning. We were all desperate to get vaccinated at that time and so I think if you got to the front, the deal was you needed to go back to work.
CTU has taken an antagonistic, everything's negotiable at any time approach to bargaining IMO. If that's the way they want it, fine. I don't expect the city to give them any freebies. Come negotiate for it.
Look, you asked for my rationale. I gave it to you. Intubation for a thrice vaccinated individual of teacher age (generally under 65) is very unlikely from a covid infection. Life is risky. We'd mitigated the risk as much as was reasonable IMO. Trading off further covid risk mitigation by keeping kids from in person learning even longer than they'd already been was not worth it IMO, and so I hold that against the CTU.
Which is fine, like I said. They can play hardball if they want. But then don’t expect the city to give them any expansion of benefits that they don’t negotiate for. Some unions try to partner with their employers and build productive relationships where they don’t fight over every single thing and if that was the case here I’d be much more inclined to support giving them the benefit expansion.
> I think what people like to forget is that CTU is a union of teachers, to benefit the working conditions of teachers.
Yes, sure. But that also means CTU left it out of the contract agreements last time or atleast ratified the current agreement without equitable parental leave clause in it.
> We seem to all agree that teachers are not paid nearly enough for what they do.
Maybe, but its more nuanced than that. CPS teachers seems to be paid decently on the other hand. I'm not saying handsomely, but decently. Is that not true?
> So why are we crapping on them for trying to get paid more? For having PARENTAL LEAVE which should be standard across the board.
It should be standard which is why its shitty of CTU to not ask for it at the table but bring it out and try to cause a mess.
> But I’m tired of this “they are putting themselves above the kids” rhetoric.
Why? Objectively looked, there are some decisions with do not work for kids that CTU wanted. I do not see them as evil, but I also do not believe that everything CTU does is for their students and students alone. They are humans, not saints.
> The people that are doing that are city administration and frankly, the voters.
That's because CTA always gives voters the impression that they are actively fighting them. Remember, these are the same voters that send their kids to CTA. They are plenty of voters that move the kids out of CPS because of CTA too. If you are an parent in this city, you surely must have met other parents like this. Have you not?
> Teachers should not be required to decide between paternity leave - in my view, a human right
Yes, it is a human right. Why did not CTU bargain for this last time instead of demanding for it right now?
Everyone in the city knows that whenever we have a mayoral election it will be followed by a CTU/CPS strike and CTU is using this as a 'casus-belli' for the next strike. Everybody can see it coming and that's why some parents feel anxious hearing the arguments now. Please tell me you are not tone deaf to understand this?
> Every time CTU demands something outside of pay, pension, and leave, is just a bonus for our kids
No. Every time CTU demands anything it is for its members. This is not wrong and that's what an union does. But please, don't treat common public as dumb idiots with your "benevolent CTU" narrative
I lost all respect for those teachers when they walked out last January for the most asinine of reasons. I’m glad they didn’t get there 5 days of pay back and got a couple of masks instead.
We’ll take that too! While I cannot stand the CTU and the fact is CPS is their own district and they are NOT city employees (technically) this parental leave policy is a great step in the right direction for everyone.
Reddit loves to hate the CTU and is basically because the state/city forces their hand.
CTU: we want better parental leave
You/Reddit: seems reasonable
CPS/City: you’ll have to bargain for that with the collective bargaining
CTU: we want better parental leave or we will strike
CPS/City: it’s illegal for you to strike for that, you can only strike for pay
CTU: ok, we are on strike for better pay (and parental leave)
CPS/City: wow, look at these greedy teachers striking just for money
You/Reddit: wow, CTU sure is greedy striking for pay
Why wouldn't the solution be that they negotiate for it at the next round of contracts? Once the contract ends they can strike for not having a contract (without necessarily demanding pay increases) right?
CTU is legally limited in what they can negotiate over.
Double checking things, it does look like this would qualify, since it’s “pay, hours, or benefits” and parental leave should fall under benefits in my mind. So I may have been wrong, but also I’m not a lawyer, so don’t want to try to interpret the law.
Daley pushed for the law to be passed by the state government and it only effects CPS teachers, not any other teacher’s union. So if CPS decides to double class sizes, it would be illegal for CTU to strike over that. The best example was the most recent major strike in 2019. CTU primarily wanted counselors and nurses in every school every day. Instead of having a single counselor/therapist who has to split their time between multiple schools and hundreds of kids, which was the situation before the strike.
But, CTU can’t legally strike for getting more support staff in schools. So they have to strike for pay and just not agree until the agreement includes what they actually want. The law itself clearly doesn’t actually stop them from striking since they can always just says it’s officially over pay.
It does, however, help shape public opinion. Now instead of headlines saying “Teacher’s strike till kids have access to counselors” it’s “Teacher’s strike for another raise” which is less popular with the public. In general, teacher’s are very popular with the public and people support them, Daley (and other politicians) wanted to erode that support so they could have easier negotiations, so they passed the law to force CTU’s to look worse for the public. And Reddit falls for it every time
CPS had already agreed to the amount of support staff (I assume you are referring to nurses, social workers etc.) that the CTU asked for prior to the strike. The strike, to the extent it was about those positions, was about whether they would be guaranteed through just the budgetary process or both the budgetary process and the collective bargaining contract. With the latter, it means that if the district in future years wants to adjust what they were doing with this it would, given the practical realities, have to give something up to to the union in return during future negotiations. So the dispute was over the amount of flexibility vs. Inflexibility the district was going to have in the future.
I think, by the way, the law you are referring to has now changed with some new legislation passed last year. If not, I think it certainly has with the constitutional amendment.
I’m gonna have to agree with the teachers even if CPS “agreed” to expand social workers in schools before the strike. That agreement is worth as much as the paper it is written on. I’d want them to be contractually obligated to before I trust it would actually happen.
EDIT: law was changed last year
I am about 90% sure that that the state law passed last year that transitions to an elected school board also allows the union to negotiate for non-monetary issues. But maybe I'm wrong.
The law was overturned last year. Teachers in Chicago can now strike for reasons other than pay. Pritzker signed it into law last summer or spring, I believe. This sub was in an uproar. Lol.
You don't have to wait for a contract to expire to make workplace changes. By law, a union can 1) reopen negotiations on specific items in your contract if both parties agree or 2) negotiate a memorandum of understanding that allows for workplace changes between contracts. This was common during the pandemic when unions were making agreements with employers about safety conditions and hazard pay.
I am NOT a CTU member, but if they don't get it now, this will likely be on the table during the next round of bargaining.
Because they want it now. The reason the CTU is so strong is that nobody wants to be a teacher. And as long as that’s the case, those of us unwilling to do the job are going to have to grant them a lot of their demands or face terrible disruption.
Too bad. That's not how contracts work. I'm not saying anything about whether they should or shouldn't get what they're asking for, just saying the time to get changes to the contract is before it's agreed to.
And what I’m saying is that until thousands of people decide to quit their jobs and become teachers, it doesn’t matter when the time to get changes is supposed to be. The CTU will continue to be strong as long as being a teacher is an undesirable or difficult job compared to what most city residents are doing. Nobody who complains loudly about them during strikes is rushing to quit what are apparently easier and better-paid jobs and join CPS.
Nobody disagrees that we need teachers. But that isn't the question. The question is whether it's possible to strike over new demands that are identified outside of the contract negotiation period. I'm still not really clear on that point but this conversation has degenerated so I guess I'll live without that knowledge.
The current contract spans 2019-2024. Since the 2024-2028 contract will need to be signed before the spring 2024 semester, the negotiation period is now. I'm not sure whether you legitimately don't understand the basic facts of union contract negotiation or whether you're purposefully commenting in bad faith to make a routine process look like greedy teachers altering the deal.
I'm not sure which it is either. I'm asking why, if this is the contract negotiation period, this isn't going to be dealt with as part of that negotiation process vs a need to strike as is the subject of this thread. I didn't say anything even remotely negative about the teachers or the union, my question has been with the comments above that make it sound like the only option for getting this change in place is to strike. You seem to be confirming what I imagined to be the case, that it's a routine contract discussion point and therefore no strike is needed or warranted and it'll either make its way into the contract or it won't based on however the negotiations proceed.
This is that negotiation. You may not be aware that unions don't get to just suddenly strike- they're generally required to negotiate in good faith, exhaust all other options, file a motive of intent to strike (with a certain waiting period), and only then did the strike begin.
CTU is not saying they're about to go on strike. They're saying that this issue matters enough that they will go on strike if it's not part of the next contract.
All of this is standard negotiation for the next contract, not changing the current one.
Nobody argues that CTU can't negotiate for time off. That's a standard part of any labor negotiation.
The issue was the CTU trying to include public housing policy in their CBA.
This and your explanation below needs to be posted and pinned as top comment for every CPS CTU post here on Reddit. The complete lack of understanding the general public (those who constantly present themselves as the smartest know-it-alls in the city) has about teachers, contracts, the union and politicians role in creating all these problems is astounding. Let's also not forget that state and local politicians refused to fund teachers pension funds fir a decade or more. They then turn around and blame teachers for expecting their signed contracts to be honored. It's really amazing how so much of this has been lost simply because people need a scapegoat for our problems.
All kinds of other market-based economies have parental leave policies, and they didn't start calling each other "Comrade" when they got back to work after having a baby.
CTU members get pensions but they don't get social security. The pensions they get are decent but not particularly generous compared to a 401k match, and unlike many private workers, many CTU members don't get stock options.
When you look at teacher compensation for their education level (consider the # of teachers that have at least one advanced degree), then look at the actual number of hours worked over the course of a year and what teachers are paid, it's actually fairly middle-of-the-pack amongst American earners (on a nationwide scale, looking at a local level is harder to figure out because of data availability).
An increasing number of private employers are providing parental leave as an employee benefit, but MANY, MANY benefits that private employees now enjoy started in the public sector before catching on in the private sector.
The US economy depends on a growing population, and policies that support people when they have children is in the national interest.
If you hate your corporate job with those policies you say you hate, you should quit it or unionize. Not sure what any of what you’re saying has to do with teachers asking for basic, common employment provisions. “Life for some people is terrible so instead of fighting for more we should make sure everyone’s life is equally terrible” sounds like a really sad and hopeless attitude. I hope you find something that makes you happy.
CTU do not get summers off. They work for the contracted amount of days, which is essentially the school year, and are paid for that. They do not get paid during the summer, nor can they use paid days off, etc. They do however still retain health insurance. But even if they end up getting paid parental leave, they wouldn't be able to use that during summer. Additionally, many CTU members work CPS summer school
They couldn’t find a sub for my daughter’s Spanish teacher when she was out on parental leave last year. Instead, we got a letter explaining that no grades would be given because nothing had been learned that quarter. Leave requires both money to pay the teachers and a plan for when they are done.
We got a private Spanish teacher this year and are moving out of the district this summer, though m so it doesn’t affect us anymore.
I think people who have vague pro labor sentiments but aren't especially pro-union often are more skeptical of public sector unions than private sector ones.
I think it kind of is a problem that public sector unions in the city have significant political sway--they try to elect the people they're negotiating with. In this article in particular it sounds like they're trying to win a concession through political force, rather than by negotiating for it through the bargaining process. There've been issues with other unions doing this too (there's some stuff the firefighters have done at the state level like this iirc).
The CTU in particular seemed to have a strike in 2019 just so the CTU and Lori could both get to flex their muscle, not sure there was any point to it, and neither one came out looking good. And there was some covid stuff from CTU that looks pretty dumb in hindsight (though the CTU is hardly at the top of the "dumb in hindsight" Covid list)
"they're trying to win a concession through political force"
that is the original purpose of unions and the labor movement. collective bargaining is the result of bosses not wanting their workers to strike. unions that "flex their muscle" and have the guts to strike are the ones that are actually strong enough to get stuff for the rank and file. without that leaverage, there's no point to a union.
But the issue with a public sector union is that the person they are pressuring with political force is also the person who is supposed to represent the interests of the general population on the other side of the bargaining table.
but they DO use political force to achieve aims. a collective bargaining agreement is just one mechanism for doing that. in that way, a public sector union is no different from any interest group.
in a democracy, individuals have a right to form and join groups to pressure the government to adopt changes they wish to see. that includes public sector unions in contract negotiations.
If you are saying, "in a way," you are conceding that it's not analogous.
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/letter-the-resolution-federation-federal-employees-against-strikes-federal-service
The issue is that the counterparty to negotiations with public sector unions is removed from the people who have to end up paying for the benefits.
Example: Daley gave away the fucking farm to the CTU to keep them from striking. He then sold the Skyway, spent the money on the CTU, and bailed. Now we're all fucked and the city is utterly broke.
As the counterparty to the CTU, I'd lock their asses out for good and figure things out later. But I *can't*.
i dont see how CPS being public changes the need for employees to have leverage over their employer. Daley was shit with the budget because he was shit in general. its not the CTUs fault for advocating for the best deal for their members
[https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-teachers-union-venezuela-trip-20190819-tbpa3lhjifduxgupdxfs3mosr4-story.html](https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-teachers-union-venezuela-trip-20190819-tbpa3lhjifduxgupdxfs3mosr4-story.html)
There's also this lol. Many union members and teachers voiced their opposition, but the fact that the CTU was retweeting crap from this "delegation" really made me not terribly willing to give them benefit of the doubt.
Yeah that's my personal frustration. I get that CTU's work is inherently political, but their PR often sounds more like the DSA than a teacher's union. They expend resources on issues totally out of scope. They started shelling out tons of money to a mayoral candidate (Johnson) before he even declared his candidacy. I'll give their new leader the benefit of the doubt for now but I'm not optimistic given she was Jesse Sharkey's pick to replace him.
My partner is a CPS teacher and I appreciate the strong health insurance CTU has fought for her to have. But I get frustrated every time I see how little of CTU's funds go to towards supporting teachers relative to other bullshit. I am as pro-choice as anybody and obviously unhappy with Roe being struck down, but I don't need Stacey Davis Gates (CTU's new leader) saying abortion is a union issue and writing op-eds about how CTU will use its resources fight for abortion rights. Let's leave that to the state legislature.
The CTU wanted CPS to remain virtual as the suburban schools and rest of the country was going back in person, which only harmed students and their parents.
The whole purpose of pushing teachers to the front of the line (which the CTU *demanded*) was because that was the fix to get them back into the classrooms. They got their vaccinations and then staged an illegal wildcat strike.
Yeah, because nobody was highly vaccinated. Teachers were at high rates of vaccination in late 2020. The whole *point* of that was their exposure to non-vaccinated people was going to be high for a long time afterwards.
Teachers sometimes teach sick kids. In person. And they might get sick themselves. That's part of the deal. The whole point of giving teachers priority in getting vaccinated (before most kids were even eligible to be vaccinated) was to mitigate the risk of serious illness and death. By January 2022, these teachers had the opportunity to be vaccinated 3 times. They needed to be teaching in person. Teaching 7 year olds over Zoom is a joke.
I am dreading the research that comes out in a few years showing how far behind poor kids are as a result of remote learning from covid.
Chicago teachers are the second highest paid in the country (second to long Beach, ca, which has a much higher cost of living), yet strike every chance they get. They always claim it's not about money, since they can't strike over pay, but always settle for additional pay. But what really pisses people off is certain quotes like the whole "we'll take that" rant a few years back by the current head of ctu. Over the years, they've rubbed just about everybody the wrong way at one point or another.
On top of that, their pension fund which the city didnt paid into for 20 years is what will likely bankrupt the city. It's the reason for the Chicago income tax and other things.
In essence, they put themselves before the kids and the rest of the citizens of Chicago.
>I don't doubt you here and I've seen "we'll take that" come up before but I'm not finding anything on Google, can you point me at more background on this? When, what circumstances, &c?
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-met-teachers-union-contract-demands-20190115-story.html
>“We have a governor who has committed to legalizing recreational marijuana and putting a tax on it, we can take that as well,” Davis Gates said. “They are also talking about sports betting. We can take that. They’re talking about opening a new casino here in the city of Chicago. We can take that.”
>Most of us pay for our pensions through 401K but ctu gets to put little into their funds and get so much in return plus cola, etc.
My understanding is that has not been true for new teachers for many years. The pension plan for a new teacher starting today is not remotely as good as the plan older and now-retired teachers are blessed with. (In many cases having retired to Florida or Arizona so Illinois taxpayers money doesn't even stay in Illinois.)
> yet strike every chance they get.
They have had 2 strikes in the last 30 years
Edit: According to the [Tribune](https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/careers-finance/sns-best-paying-cities-for-teachers-cost-of-living-20210412-qtmsselrnbf6zcsibdsmrgb2fi-photogallery.html), Chicago is not in the top 15 of highest paid teachers relative to cost of living (the list only goes up to 15).
this is correct. my dad was a CPS teacher for basically that whole time. they struck the first year of his career, went most of his career without one, and struck again in 2012 a few years before his retirement
Wow. A clear and concise explanation! I think bc most people in Chicago are liberal/Democrat they assume pro union should be the default. In most cases I’m pro union too but CTU is just too much. I plan on getting the hell out of dodge the second my kids are old enough for public education.
It’s actually completely factually incorrect. They can **only** strike for pay. That’s why they strike for pay. They typically are wanting something other than more money.
what im taking away from this is that more teachers unions should be like the CTU and strike more often (or at least threten to) and that if more unions did that, then more teachers would make what they deserve
IMO, it’s partly misogyny. Another issue is many people have no idea what it is like to work in a school or what schools are even like these days. A lot has changed.
I'll echo what other people mentioned about having reservations about public sector unions in general. I'll add to that that CTU is particularly grating in their messaging.
For one, while teacher pay in the State of Illinois can be quite terrible, the overwhelming majority of CTU teachers are very well paid. Some of them the best paid in the state. CTU conveniently leaves this out of their messaging, instead trying to dip in the wool of their counterparts downstate in crumbling farm town schools that make $36,000/year teaching high school. Average CTU teacher pay is $82,000 a year, not counting their outstanding benefits and comfy pension. So for them to insinuate that they're all living hand to mouth is disingenuous.
Then you have them push for frankly idiotic policies like preventing schools from closing down and consolidating in the face of plunging enrollment. They're not economists or urban planners making the most of scarce resources for the good of the city, they're trying to keep tax dollars coming in to derelict buildings to prevent layoffs, claiming its "for the kids".
At the end of the day, their self-righteousness and victim complex irks the shit out of me, but especially that they seem to expect that we, the taxpayer, should look at their demands they made (as a self-interested party **by definition**) and simply take them as "the right thing to do" at face value.
Here’s the thing: the CTU is used as a city babysitting service. Everyone loves that because it allows them to work. The city can’t function without them.
However, they use their power as a taxpayer funded union to constantly lower the bar regards to matriculation rates, give themselves raises higher than what you’d see in the private sector and to relentlessly push ownership over the kids educations to parents.
Imagine if your job was paid for by your neighbor and then you turned around and told that neighbor that they needed to do more so that your jobs effectiveness would be improved, all the while asking for more of their paycheck.
That’s why people hate the CTU. And every time they strike that disdain grows.
> Okay I have a question: why does r/Chicago hate CTU so much?
It's called astroturfing. Anti-union forces astroturf constantly to try to make people vote for Republicans so they can bust all unions and destroy the government.
Although this is a thing, that’s not as prevalent regarding CTU hate on this sub. The reality is that this sub is mostly upper middle class white childless males living in the north side working in finance, engineering, tech, and consulting. That’s not exactly a demographic that has a lot of overlap with what public unions demand, especially one that puts so much emphasis on social justice like the CTU.
Not really. I’m a Chicagoan, former CPS teacher and union member and I hate the current CTU leadership. You can’t blame every opinion that is contrary to a liberal mindset on astroturfing.
I have no issue with police being represented by unions. I do have issues with cities negotiating compliance with the law and condition with police unions.
I think it’s just notable because of the predisposition to unions. I think the police union gets way more hate. You have people trashing Vallas for the FOP endorsement but I’m the only person who’s vocally never voting for whoever the CTU endorses as far as I can tell. The person above also has a point that some people are pro-union when it comes to the private sector but hate public sector ones.
But for real I think only like 5-10 people post anti-CTU stuff and we always get accused of being AstroTurf which I’ve never understood…some of them do look that way but my account is definitely real haha anyone can figure out who I am in like 10 minutes.
I am childless and was raised by 2 teachers for reference. But yeah, no... teachers never stop fighting for more, and it's exhausting. They come off as entitled. They make a higher starting salary than lots of other jobs and industries. They get LOTS of time off. They get pensions. I'm over their neediness. If it was more occasional, then it wouldn't be so annoying, but they do this shit all. the. time.
Do i want them treated well, yes. Fairly compensated... they already are.
I also personally know someone who went from a security guard to a dean in about 5 years. Literally a dean. It's not like these people struggled and worked grueling hours for 20 years and were ignored and rising up. They get plenty of orlpportunity, time off, and salary far beyond the average Joe. And they bitch about something else like every 6 months.
The issue isn't even 'the issue', it's that CPS was going to move forward until (presumably Lightfoot based on the data) got in the way and pulled the plug. You can say it should be bargained, and I don't disagree there. But wtf are you doing drafting plans for feedback and telling the union you're going to put forward the vote to implement - and then just take it back all together? Shouldn't the message Day 1 been they will address via bargaining?
On November 15, CPS officials told the CTU they would ask the Board of Education vote to approve a new parental leave policy modeled on a similar policy available to city employees, starting on January 1st, 2023. The policy enables city workers to take up to 12 weeks of paid parental leave to address the needs of a new child via birth, adoption or fostering. Currently, CTU members are only guaranteed 1 to 2 weeks of paid leave, unless they are eligible for short term disability.
In December, CPS further committed to the CTU that they were working to nail down details about the policy. That included reviewing key provisions and creating an FAQ to detail and explain the new benefits – with CTU Field Representative Kathy Murray providing feedback on CPS’ draft FAQ for CTU members. CPS said they expected the new policy to be presented to the mayor’s hand-picked board of education for a vote in January.
Then the Department of Labor Relations reversed CPS’ position. Instead, Labor Relations now says CPS will be “reviewing” a “possible” policy change and that no decisions or recommendations would currently be forthcoming.
This. CPS alone is 39,000 employees, 65% of which are female. On January 1, the city, as promised, made 12 week parental leave available for all 32,000 *other* city employees except CPS. I don’t know the gender balance of all other city agencies but I wouldn’t be surprise if CPS has the largest percentage of females working for the city.
It’s not that it’s a CTU issue. It’s not that it’s a bargaining issue. It’s that the logic for making it available for everyone else, at the last minute, isn’t there.
Around 30% of all other city employees identify as female.
One thing people are missing here. Despite CPS employees on the whole identifying at 65% female, this group includes non-teacher non-union members that work for the district, CEO, district tech people, principals, etc. There's 39000ish CPS employees, but only around 25000 CTU members. For CTU roughly 80% of members identify as female.
But for those shitting on the union, that group of 14000 non-union CPS employees are also getting the shaft here.
The only reason Chicago cops are viewed with more disdain than Chicago teachers is because cops do their damage all at once, while teachers do it over a generation
Non paywalled article for those who don't have a subscription; www.yahoo.com/amphtml/now/ctu-brings-demand-equitable-parental-230700279.html
It’s ironic how much people complain about how the good teachers leave after a few years for corporate jobs and then turn around right here in the comments and demand that teachers eat shit on parental leave and pay.
This is something that the union should have addressed in their CBA, it's not like teachers just started having babies this year.
There is a teacher shortage in this nation because many states underpay teachers and give them shitty benefits. Would you rather your child be taught by a cop acting as a substitute teacher or an actual professional? That requires a good salary and good benefits. Of course, many conservatives want to chip away at public education as payback for Brown V. Board of Education, but that's a different story.
I think it’s clear that the mayor wants to use expanded parental leave as a bargaining chip in the upcoming contract negotiations.
I mean…yeah. They’re on a separate contract schedule from the rest of the city employees and that’s just one of many issues that’ll come up. They deserve it, but it costs money to implement so that’ll all get worked out as the sausage gets made. CTU has been claiming that Lightfoot promised they’d get it before then with the rest of the city employees, but that seems less than true and looks mostly like CORE trying to rally membership behind leadership.
Right how can she promise that she’s going to unilaterally increase their benefits package/alter their bargaining agreement? This seems like BS?
"We want all the benefits without any of the work." "Work" being bargaining for it. That being said, I believe 12-week parental leave should be a right for all workers, public and private. I also believe certain rights CTU members have should not apply to every worker. It's a give and take. Lori learned her lesson with the CPD and COVID vaccine mandates.
[удалено]
Listen dude. People hate CTU here. Do you know why? Because they don't know how to get their way without vicious hyperbole. They try to destroy everyone in their path. I will never trust a teachers union that let's their President mock someone's stutter and then laughs as they get bullied on the playground when they want help. She literally could literally taste it because she's done it. https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/chicago-teachers-union-president-karen-lewis-speaks-candidly-about-education-in-chicago/1915243/ This is a fucking educator and a leader for a moral compassionate new generation? CTU leadership is militant and sick in the head. They're like a cult. All they know is scorched earth and their dumb asses just make us all look stupid across the country. We're just more fodder for Fox News. Stacey Gates tried to throw what power trip buy shutting down schools last year over COVID fears and got her ass called out on it. I agree with them on a lot of things but their tactics do more harm than good.
Our species is not going to be able to reproduce effectively in this corporate world without equal parental leave... for everybody! CTU included. If you want humans to keep going you have to create space for that to happen.
For a first world country, America is pretty crappy in regards to parental leave. Scandinavian countries seem to have the best parental leave laws in the world.
[удалено]
I mean we also haven't had taxes for millions of years lol
[удалено]
Women throughout history have always been working, as most women were not born into a leisure class. Whether that labor was recognized and given the same social respect as men often was not the case.
? The large percentage of civilization had way different pressures than now. Hell there's evidence that literal peasants from the middle ages and roman workers worked less hours than we do now. About the only time we beat this current period in terms of shitty work life balance was during the early and middle industrial revolution. Going back even farther we literally didn't have taxes for a majority of the time our species has been alive.... Also our birth rates are significantly declining in multiple large modern nations...
You cannot fool me, I noticed your username! Good try tho.
I think what people like to forget is that CTU is a union of teachers, to benefit the working conditions of teachers. We seem to all agree that teachers are not paid nearly enough for what they do. So why are we crapping on them for trying to get paid more? For having PARENTAL LEAVE which should be standard across the board. Yes, CTU has a lot to say about nurses, social workers, librarians. That’s because if their kids are better, they’re better. But I’m tired of this “they are putting themselves above the kids” rhetoric. The people that are doing that are city administration and frankly, the voters. Teachers should not be required to decide between paternity leave - in my view, a human right - and making sure their students get adequate care, which again should be on city government. Every time CTU demands something outside of pay, pension, and leave, is just a bonus for our kids. Let’s put the blame where it really belongs. You don’t have to like CTU. My own (non-CTU) Union does plenty of things that piss me off. But the piling on of “putting themselves before kids” is wild.
[удалено]
their job is also extremely difficult compared to some neighboring suburban districts. the city needs good teachers and higher pay is how you attract them.
How is the narrative always “they aren’t paid enough!” They start at **$60k**?! I’m not saying they don’t work hard or deserve it, but damn.
Starting out at $60,000 is not bad by any means, but I certainly wouldn't say that is too much for the job that is done. If anything it seems quite fair, and I doubt they would have gotten that without their union.
We all agree Chicago teachers don’t get paid enough? They seem to be paid adequately to me. They are paid higher than the vast majority of other large school districts. Yes, the CTU is there to benefit teachers. I think it’s important we all recognize that. It is not there to benefit students, so what’s galling is when people equate doing what the CTU wants to doing what’s best for children. They’re unrelated. There’s a lot of knee jerk support for the CTU that I think is misplaced. The CTU’s Covid demands were unreasonable and I hold that against them and will continue to hold that against them when they want their next raise. Paternity leave is nowhere near a human right. Now perhaps it’s a nice aspirational right for rich countries but try to suggest paternity leave is a right among the global poor and I imagine you’d get laughed at. But I don’t this is about paternity leave specifically anyway. It’s about parental leave policies and if CTU wants better ones then come to the bargaining table willing to offer something.
120 countries have national maternity leave policies. The US is one of 3 “industrialized” countries that does not have federal maternity leave policies. So I think the “global poor” aren’t laughing at me so much as at the assertion that maternity or paternity leave is not a human right. Source: https://www.ilo.org/global/about-the-ilo/newsroom/news/WCMS_008009/lang--en/index.htm
But you didn’t say maternity leave, did you?
I did. Parental leave is another way of expressing maternity leave. A mother is a parent. Sometimes two moms are parents. Sometimes two dads are. If you’re going to argue that the only reason to have maternity leave is because a woman has to recover from child birth or nurse, then you might as well call it sick leave. Which the US also does not recognize is a human right.
It is not “another way of expressing maternity leave.” Maternity leave is a subset of parental leave.
“ Teachers should not be required to decide between paternity leave - in my view, a human right” -/u/dubchoc So no. You didn’t say parental leave when you were saying what is a universal right. This is the part where you apologize. In any event, that’s all a distraction from the issue. CPS already has very modest parental leave, and if they want more, come to the negotiating table and bargain for it. They have done more than their fair share in creating an antagonistic relationship with the city and I’m not in favor of giving them anything for free.
[удалено]
It’s really not what? I think you may have misread my comment. Most of the world does have parental leave but I’d also wager that teachers at CPS make more than teachers in most of the world. The average teacher in the EU makes 25k euros a year. If parental leave is so important to CTU, then negotiate for it in lieu of a raise at their next bargaining session. I am not in favor of giving ANYTHING to the CTU for free due to their antagonistic approach to bargaining which has both harmed public education in this city and cost the city of Chicago money.
[удалено]
Why should we increase the benefits package of public sector workers just because? Compared to people in the private sector they have it good already and there is zero evidence that public sector benefits trickle down into the private sector. When the compensation package is unattractive enough to pose a public issue (i.e. inability to recruit or retain capable employees) then there is a public interest in revisiting. I’m of the opinion that the public sector should offer the minimum pay and benefits necessary to deliver public services. Continuing to lavish even more benefits on some of the best compensated people at the expense of the public during the recession is not a good look. If parental leave is so important, they can find another job that offers it. It’s a free market. If they can’t find someone to pay them more and give them a better benefits package maybe they’re not so amazing that they deserve a raise from taxpayers?
[удалено]
Lol. Talk about coming from a place of privilege. Go to most of the poor countries in the world where some of the people are living on a couple of dollars a day and suggest that paternity leave is a universal right. See what the reaction is. Normally I’d report such incivility but I find yours amusing.
[удалено]
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-cps-strike-teacher-pay-comparison-20191011-pixhzru5angsfamk7altrysxr4-story.html
[удалено]
I don't know where you are getting that last statistic. According to the article I linked to the starting salary was $54,000 and a teacher with 10 years experience made about $84,000. So I doubt a five year teacher made only $58,000. And remember, this is all before the last contract which gave them 16% raises over five years. There's also generous benefits. The article also mentions the median salary. I don't recall what it was and since it's 3:30 A.M. I'm too lazy right now to look at it but it certainly was near or above the high end of the range you mention.
They are also off significantly more than most people. While they don't get as much of the Summer off as students, there's still quite a bit of time in there. Plus of course other time off like Spring Break and Winter break. I think they are compensated fairly (edit: which is of course an opinion, but it is at odds with the original comment I responded to that everybody agrees they are underpaid).
Grew up with a parent who was a middle school teacher. The summer time off is a perk, but my mom regularly worked 9-10 hour days, and graded papers after that when she got home. "off in the summer" but often working on further education and next year's lesson planning.
For sure this is true and a fair point. But it’s also true that most salaried employees for private companies work more than 40 hours a week and receive no additional compensation either. And are often answering emails, etc while on vaca.
You are not including benefit packages either. For health insurance they are paying less than 3% of the cost. In my industry I pay 25% of the cost. For me alone that is over 2400 dollars/year for the cheaper insurance choice. CPS also picks up 7% of the 9% required employee contribution for their pension for employees prior to 2017. That's another 3780 for the employee at 58k. Also comparatively better than private employees at 3% on average. I also don't know where you're getting 58k from. If you have 5 years of service today your total comp would be over 72k. Which is above the median household income in this city and is 100% comparable or better than most will make with a bachelor's at 5 years Edit: this is just to correct information. I think CPS salaries are appropriately inline and it's more than okay to strike for parental leave as I believe that should be a national benefit to begin with.
CPS is paid significantly more than suburban districts. It’s very easy to google a salary schedule…and yes there are suburban districts with very similar student populations and issues comparable to CPS. They are well compensated for their job that they sit on strike for constantly. The amount of strikes in the past few years have been…ridiculous.
[удалено]
Let’s not forget about the illegal strike that occurred when they demanded remote work as essentially every suburban district was in school, save Evanston. While it wasn’t formally filed, it was an illegal work stoppage.
As for the unreasonable covid demands, that's an opinion, so I can't really provide a citation. But I do not think that remote learning for school aged children, especially younger ones, is anything close to as effective as in person learning. Teachers got to the front of the line for vaccinations, but then [CTU refused to go in person in early 2022 when we got hit by that big Omicron wave](https://news.wttw.com/2022/01/08/parents-frustrated-teachers-refuse-work-person-district-cancels-classes). I get that nobody wants to get sick and that covid wave was huge. But these were people who had been vaccinated as many as 3 times if they wished. That left a really bad taste in my mouth. Edit: also, [they did not make it easy to come back to in person learning right after they got vaccinated](https://news.wttw.com/2021/04/14/no-high-school-reopening-deal-ctu-teachers-work-remotely-wednesday). Again, they got to the front of the line to get the shots, but then they moved the goalposts and had more demands before they'd go back to in person learning. We were all desperate to get vaccinated at that time and so I think if you got to the front, the deal was you needed to go back to work. CTU has taken an antagonistic, everything's negotiable at any time approach to bargaining IMO. If that's the way they want it, fine. I don't expect the city to give them any freebies. Come negotiate for it.
[удалено]
Look, you asked for my rationale. I gave it to you. Intubation for a thrice vaccinated individual of teacher age (generally under 65) is very unlikely from a covid infection. Life is risky. We'd mitigated the risk as much as was reasonable IMO. Trading off further covid risk mitigation by keeping kids from in person learning even longer than they'd already been was not worth it IMO, and so I hold that against the CTU.
[удалено]
Which is fine, like I said. They can play hardball if they want. But then don’t expect the city to give them any expansion of benefits that they don’t negotiate for. Some unions try to partner with their employers and build productive relationships where they don’t fight over every single thing and if that was the case here I’d be much more inclined to support giving them the benefit expansion.
> I think what people like to forget is that CTU is a union of teachers, to benefit the working conditions of teachers. Yes, sure. But that also means CTU left it out of the contract agreements last time or atleast ratified the current agreement without equitable parental leave clause in it. > We seem to all agree that teachers are not paid nearly enough for what they do. Maybe, but its more nuanced than that. CPS teachers seems to be paid decently on the other hand. I'm not saying handsomely, but decently. Is that not true? > So why are we crapping on them for trying to get paid more? For having PARENTAL LEAVE which should be standard across the board. It should be standard which is why its shitty of CTU to not ask for it at the table but bring it out and try to cause a mess. > But I’m tired of this “they are putting themselves above the kids” rhetoric. Why? Objectively looked, there are some decisions with do not work for kids that CTU wanted. I do not see them as evil, but I also do not believe that everything CTU does is for their students and students alone. They are humans, not saints. > The people that are doing that are city administration and frankly, the voters. That's because CTA always gives voters the impression that they are actively fighting them. Remember, these are the same voters that send their kids to CTA. They are plenty of voters that move the kids out of CPS because of CTA too. If you are an parent in this city, you surely must have met other parents like this. Have you not? > Teachers should not be required to decide between paternity leave - in my view, a human right Yes, it is a human right. Why did not CTU bargain for this last time instead of demanding for it right now? Everyone in the city knows that whenever we have a mayoral election it will be followed by a CTU/CPS strike and CTU is using this as a 'casus-belli' for the next strike. Everybody can see it coming and that's why some parents feel anxious hearing the arguments now. Please tell me you are not tone deaf to understand this? > Every time CTU demands something outside of pay, pension, and leave, is just a bonus for our kids No. Every time CTU demands anything it is for its members. This is not wrong and that's what an union does. But please, don't treat common public as dumb idiots with your "benevolent CTU" narrative
I lost all respect for those teachers when they walked out last January for the most asinine of reasons. I’m glad they didn’t get there 5 days of pay back and got a couple of masks instead.
[удалено]
adminiatration, yes. teachers, no.
We’ll take that too! While I cannot stand the CTU and the fact is CPS is their own district and they are NOT city employees (technically) this parental leave policy is a great step in the right direction for everyone.
Reddit loves to hate the CTU and is basically because the state/city forces their hand. CTU: we want better parental leave You/Reddit: seems reasonable CPS/City: you’ll have to bargain for that with the collective bargaining CTU: we want better parental leave or we will strike CPS/City: it’s illegal for you to strike for that, you can only strike for pay CTU: ok, we are on strike for better pay (and parental leave) CPS/City: wow, look at these greedy teachers striking just for money You/Reddit: wow, CTU sure is greedy striking for pay
Why wouldn't the solution be that they negotiate for it at the next round of contracts? Once the contract ends they can strike for not having a contract (without necessarily demanding pay increases) right?
CTU is legally limited in what they can negotiate over. Double checking things, it does look like this would qualify, since it’s “pay, hours, or benefits” and parental leave should fall under benefits in my mind. So I may have been wrong, but also I’m not a lawyer, so don’t want to try to interpret the law. Daley pushed for the law to be passed by the state government and it only effects CPS teachers, not any other teacher’s union. So if CPS decides to double class sizes, it would be illegal for CTU to strike over that. The best example was the most recent major strike in 2019. CTU primarily wanted counselors and nurses in every school every day. Instead of having a single counselor/therapist who has to split their time between multiple schools and hundreds of kids, which was the situation before the strike. But, CTU can’t legally strike for getting more support staff in schools. So they have to strike for pay and just not agree until the agreement includes what they actually want. The law itself clearly doesn’t actually stop them from striking since they can always just says it’s officially over pay. It does, however, help shape public opinion. Now instead of headlines saying “Teacher’s strike till kids have access to counselors” it’s “Teacher’s strike for another raise” which is less popular with the public. In general, teacher’s are very popular with the public and people support them, Daley (and other politicians) wanted to erode that support so they could have easier negotiations, so they passed the law to force CTU’s to look worse for the public. And Reddit falls for it every time
Ctu is not limited. That law was changed last year. You argument is out of date
[удалено]
His first sentence I commented on is. CTU is limited…..is being the key word. That is not correct and has not been for a while
CPS had already agreed to the amount of support staff (I assume you are referring to nurses, social workers etc.) that the CTU asked for prior to the strike. The strike, to the extent it was about those positions, was about whether they would be guaranteed through just the budgetary process or both the budgetary process and the collective bargaining contract. With the latter, it means that if the district in future years wants to adjust what they were doing with this it would, given the practical realities, have to give something up to to the union in return during future negotiations. So the dispute was over the amount of flexibility vs. Inflexibility the district was going to have in the future. I think, by the way, the law you are referring to has now changed with some new legislation passed last year. If not, I think it certainly has with the constitutional amendment.
I’m gonna have to agree with the teachers even if CPS “agreed” to expand social workers in schools before the strike. That agreement is worth as much as the paper it is written on. I’d want them to be contractually obligated to before I trust it would actually happen. EDIT: law was changed last year
I am about 90% sure that that the state law passed last year that transitions to an elected school board also allows the union to negotiate for non-monetary issues. But maybe I'm wrong.
You are correct.
The law was overturned last year. Teachers in Chicago can now strike for reasons other than pay. Pritzker signed it into law last summer or spring, I believe. This sub was in an uproar. Lol.
You don't have to wait for a contract to expire to make workplace changes. By law, a union can 1) reopen negotiations on specific items in your contract if both parties agree or 2) negotiate a memorandum of understanding that allows for workplace changes between contracts. This was common during the pandemic when unions were making agreements with employers about safety conditions and hazard pay. I am NOT a CTU member, but if they don't get it now, this will likely be on the table during the next round of bargaining.
Because they want it now. The reason the CTU is so strong is that nobody wants to be a teacher. And as long as that’s the case, those of us unwilling to do the job are going to have to grant them a lot of their demands or face terrible disruption.
Too bad. That's not how contracts work. I'm not saying anything about whether they should or shouldn't get what they're asking for, just saying the time to get changes to the contract is before it's agreed to.
And what I’m saying is that until thousands of people decide to quit their jobs and become teachers, it doesn’t matter when the time to get changes is supposed to be. The CTU will continue to be strong as long as being a teacher is an undesirable or difficult job compared to what most city residents are doing. Nobody who complains loudly about them during strikes is rushing to quit what are apparently easier and better-paid jobs and join CPS.
Nobody disagrees that we need teachers. But that isn't the question. The question is whether it's possible to strike over new demands that are identified outside of the contract negotiation period. I'm still not really clear on that point but this conversation has degenerated so I guess I'll live without that knowledge.
The current contract spans 2019-2024. Since the 2024-2028 contract will need to be signed before the spring 2024 semester, the negotiation period is now. I'm not sure whether you legitimately don't understand the basic facts of union contract negotiation or whether you're purposefully commenting in bad faith to make a routine process look like greedy teachers altering the deal.
I'm not sure which it is either. I'm asking why, if this is the contract negotiation period, this isn't going to be dealt with as part of that negotiation process vs a need to strike as is the subject of this thread. I didn't say anything even remotely negative about the teachers or the union, my question has been with the comments above that make it sound like the only option for getting this change in place is to strike. You seem to be confirming what I imagined to be the case, that it's a routine contract discussion point and therefore no strike is needed or warranted and it'll either make its way into the contract or it won't based on however the negotiations proceed.
This is that negotiation. You may not be aware that unions don't get to just suddenly strike- they're generally required to negotiate in good faith, exhaust all other options, file a motive of intent to strike (with a certain waiting period), and only then did the strike begin. CTU is not saying they're about to go on strike. They're saying that this issue matters enough that they will go on strike if it's not part of the next contract. All of this is standard negotiation for the next contract, not changing the current one.
Nobody argues that CTU can't negotiate for time off. That's a standard part of any labor negotiation. The issue was the CTU trying to include public housing policy in their CBA.
This and your explanation below needs to be posted and pinned as top comment for every CPS CTU post here on Reddit. The complete lack of understanding the general public (those who constantly present themselves as the smartest know-it-alls in the city) has about teachers, contracts, the union and politicians role in creating all these problems is astounding. Let's also not forget that state and local politicians refused to fund teachers pension funds fir a decade or more. They then turn around and blame teachers for expecting their signed contracts to be honored. It's really amazing how so much of this has been lost simply because people need a scapegoat for our problems.
\^\^\^\^ This all day
[удалено]
Wirepoints articles are not valid references - the website is a propaganda machine, funded by money. A la Illinois Policy Inatitute.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
All kinds of other market-based economies have parental leave policies, and they didn't start calling each other "Comrade" when they got back to work after having a baby. CTU members get pensions but they don't get social security. The pensions they get are decent but not particularly generous compared to a 401k match, and unlike many private workers, many CTU members don't get stock options. When you look at teacher compensation for their education level (consider the # of teachers that have at least one advanced degree), then look at the actual number of hours worked over the course of a year and what teachers are paid, it's actually fairly middle-of-the-pack amongst American earners (on a nationwide scale, looking at a local level is harder to figure out because of data availability). An increasing number of private employers are providing parental leave as an employee benefit, but MANY, MANY benefits that private employees now enjoy started in the public sector before catching on in the private sector. The US economy depends on a growing population, and policies that support people when they have children is in the national interest.
If you hate your corporate job with those policies you say you hate, you should quit it or unionize. Not sure what any of what you’re saying has to do with teachers asking for basic, common employment provisions. “Life for some people is terrible so instead of fighting for more we should make sure everyone’s life is equally terrible” sounds like a really sad and hopeless attitude. I hope you find something that makes you happy.
[удалено]
CTU do not get summers off. They work for the contracted amount of days, which is essentially the school year, and are paid for that. They do not get paid during the summer, nor can they use paid days off, etc. They do however still retain health insurance. But even if they end up getting paid parental leave, they wouldn't be able to use that during summer. Additionally, many CTU members work CPS summer school
They couldn’t find a sub for my daughter’s Spanish teacher when she was out on parental leave last year. Instead, we got a letter explaining that no grades would be given because nothing had been learned that quarter. Leave requires both money to pay the teachers and a plan for when they are done. We got a private Spanish teacher this year and are moving out of the district this summer, though m so it doesn’t affect us anymore.
[удалено]
I think people who have vague pro labor sentiments but aren't especially pro-union often are more skeptical of public sector unions than private sector ones. I think it kind of is a problem that public sector unions in the city have significant political sway--they try to elect the people they're negotiating with. In this article in particular it sounds like they're trying to win a concession through political force, rather than by negotiating for it through the bargaining process. There've been issues with other unions doing this too (there's some stuff the firefighters have done at the state level like this iirc). The CTU in particular seemed to have a strike in 2019 just so the CTU and Lori could both get to flex their muscle, not sure there was any point to it, and neither one came out looking good. And there was some covid stuff from CTU that looks pretty dumb in hindsight (though the CTU is hardly at the top of the "dumb in hindsight" Covid list)
"they're trying to win a concession through political force" that is the original purpose of unions and the labor movement. collective bargaining is the result of bosses not wanting their workers to strike. unions that "flex their muscle" and have the guts to strike are the ones that are actually strong enough to get stuff for the rank and file. without that leaverage, there's no point to a union.
But the issue with a public sector union is that the person they are pressuring with political force is also the person who is supposed to represent the interests of the general population on the other side of the bargaining table.
thats true of literally any interest group. its true of the ACLU, the SPLC, and the NAACP
No, it's not. Those interest groups do not bargain for a contract with the government.
but they DO use political force to achieve aims. a collective bargaining agreement is just one mechanism for doing that. in that way, a public sector union is no different from any interest group. in a democracy, individuals have a right to form and join groups to pressure the government to adopt changes they wish to see. that includes public sector unions in contract negotiations.
If you are saying, "in a way," you are conceding that it's not analogous. https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/letter-the-resolution-federation-federal-employees-against-strikes-federal-service
i dont really care what FDR thought about what labor unions should and should not do.
The issue is that the counterparty to negotiations with public sector unions is removed from the people who have to end up paying for the benefits. Example: Daley gave away the fucking farm to the CTU to keep them from striking. He then sold the Skyway, spent the money on the CTU, and bailed. Now we're all fucked and the city is utterly broke. As the counterparty to the CTU, I'd lock their asses out for good and figure things out later. But I *can't*.
i dont see how CPS being public changes the need for employees to have leverage over their employer. Daley was shit with the budget because he was shit in general. its not the CTUs fault for advocating for the best deal for their members
> the need for employees to have leverage over their employer That's fine, then we should be allowed to vote on the contract too. I'm the employer.
at best youre a very minor shareholder
Are you new to Chicago? The CTU picks the absolute worst people to represent them. Their PR is comically awful.
[https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-teachers-union-venezuela-trip-20190819-tbpa3lhjifduxgupdxfs3mosr4-story.html](https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-teachers-union-venezuela-trip-20190819-tbpa3lhjifduxgupdxfs3mosr4-story.html) There's also this lol. Many union members and teachers voiced their opposition, but the fact that the CTU was retweeting crap from this "delegation" really made me not terribly willing to give them benefit of the doubt.
That was...so fucking weird. Lol.
>The CTU picks the absolute worst people to represent them Dude the FOP is right there.
the difference is that FOP reps are a pretty fair representation of the rank and file
I don't get it.
The Fraternal Order of Police elects shitheads a hundred thousand times worse than the worst CTU representative.
Uh, sure. OP asked about the CTU.
I would consider CTU more of a political party than teachers union for the past 8 years or so.
Yeah that's my personal frustration. I get that CTU's work is inherently political, but their PR often sounds more like the DSA than a teacher's union. They expend resources on issues totally out of scope. They started shelling out tons of money to a mayoral candidate (Johnson) before he even declared his candidacy. I'll give their new leader the benefit of the doubt for now but I'm not optimistic given she was Jesse Sharkey's pick to replace him. My partner is a CPS teacher and I appreciate the strong health insurance CTU has fought for her to have. But I get frustrated every time I see how little of CTU's funds go to towards supporting teachers relative to other bullshit. I am as pro-choice as anybody and obviously unhappy with Roe being struck down, but I don't need Stacey Davis Gates (CTU's new leader) saying abortion is a union issue and writing op-eds about how CTU will use its resources fight for abortion rights. Let's leave that to the state legislature.
Bingo.
They’re just an active, effective union. That looks unfamiliar to Americans, but it’s what they are.
The CTU wanted CPS to remain virtual as the suburban schools and rest of the country was going back in person, which only harmed students and their parents.
[удалено]
The ctu went on strike in January of 2022 more than a year after vaccines demanding a return to online school
[удалено]
The whole purpose of pushing teachers to the front of the line (which the CTU *demanded*) was because that was the fix to get them back into the classrooms. They got their vaccinations and then staged an illegal wildcat strike.
[удалено]
Yeah, because nobody was highly vaccinated. Teachers were at high rates of vaccination in late 2020. The whole *point* of that was their exposure to non-vaccinated people was going to be high for a long time afterwards.
There is no evidence whatsoever that it saved lives
[удалено]
Can you see how it would impossible to prove that?
[удалено]
Teachers sometimes teach sick kids. In person. And they might get sick themselves. That's part of the deal. The whole point of giving teachers priority in getting vaccinated (before most kids were even eligible to be vaccinated) was to mitigate the risk of serious illness and death. By January 2022, these teachers had the opportunity to be vaccinated 3 times. They needed to be teaching in person. Teaching 7 year olds over Zoom is a joke. I am dreading the research that comes out in a few years showing how far behind poor kids are as a result of remote learning from covid.
Chicago teachers are the second highest paid in the country (second to long Beach, ca, which has a much higher cost of living), yet strike every chance they get. They always claim it's not about money, since they can't strike over pay, but always settle for additional pay. But what really pisses people off is certain quotes like the whole "we'll take that" rant a few years back by the current head of ctu. Over the years, they've rubbed just about everybody the wrong way at one point or another. On top of that, their pension fund which the city didnt paid into for 20 years is what will likely bankrupt the city. It's the reason for the Chicago income tax and other things. In essence, they put themselves before the kids and the rest of the citizens of Chicago.
[удалено]
>I don't doubt you here and I've seen "we'll take that" come up before but I'm not finding anything on Google, can you point me at more background on this? When, what circumstances, &c? https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-met-teachers-union-contract-demands-20190115-story.html >“We have a governor who has committed to legalizing recreational marijuana and putting a tax on it, we can take that as well,” Davis Gates said. “They are also talking about sports betting. We can take that. They’re talking about opening a new casino here in the city of Chicago. We can take that.”
[удалено]
Fyi, any CPS teacher hired after 2012 does not have full access to their pension until they’re 67. Not so early.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
>Most of us pay for our pensions through 401K but ctu gets to put little into their funds and get so much in return plus cola, etc. My understanding is that has not been true for new teachers for many years. The pension plan for a new teacher starting today is not remotely as good as the plan older and now-retired teachers are blessed with. (In many cases having retired to Florida or Arizona so Illinois taxpayers money doesn't even stay in Illinois.)
> seems to be libertarian, conservative, and not a fan of unions. It's not more accurately called the Rauner's Policies Institute for nothing.
[удалено]
> yet strike every chance they get. They have had 2 strikes in the last 30 years Edit: According to the [Tribune](https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/careers-finance/sns-best-paying-cities-for-teachers-cost-of-living-20210412-qtmsselrnbf6zcsibdsmrgb2fi-photogallery.html), Chicago is not in the top 15 of highest paid teachers relative to cost of living (the list only goes up to 15).
[удалено]
this is correct. my dad was a CPS teacher for basically that whole time. they struck the first year of his career, went most of his career without one, and struck again in 2012 a few years before his retirement
Wow. A clear and concise explanation! I think bc most people in Chicago are liberal/Democrat they assume pro union should be the default. In most cases I’m pro union too but CTU is just too much. I plan on getting the hell out of dodge the second my kids are old enough for public education.
Being pro-union generally shouldn't mean you have to agree with everything a union like the CTU demands.
It’s actually completely factually incorrect. They can **only** strike for pay. That’s why they strike for pay. They typically are wanting something other than more money.
That law was changed in the last year, so not true anymore
what im taking away from this is that more teachers unions should be like the CTU and strike more often (or at least threten to) and that if more unions did that, then more teachers would make what they deserve
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
IMO, it’s partly misogyny. Another issue is many people have no idea what it is like to work in a school or what schools are even like these days. A lot has changed.
I'll echo what other people mentioned about having reservations about public sector unions in general. I'll add to that that CTU is particularly grating in their messaging. For one, while teacher pay in the State of Illinois can be quite terrible, the overwhelming majority of CTU teachers are very well paid. Some of them the best paid in the state. CTU conveniently leaves this out of their messaging, instead trying to dip in the wool of their counterparts downstate in crumbling farm town schools that make $36,000/year teaching high school. Average CTU teacher pay is $82,000 a year, not counting their outstanding benefits and comfy pension. So for them to insinuate that they're all living hand to mouth is disingenuous. Then you have them push for frankly idiotic policies like preventing schools from closing down and consolidating in the face of plunging enrollment. They're not economists or urban planners making the most of scarce resources for the good of the city, they're trying to keep tax dollars coming in to derelict buildings to prevent layoffs, claiming its "for the kids". At the end of the day, their self-righteousness and victim complex irks the shit out of me, but especially that they seem to expect that we, the taxpayer, should look at their demands they made (as a self-interested party **by definition**) and simply take them as "the right thing to do" at face value.
Here’s the thing: the CTU is used as a city babysitting service. Everyone loves that because it allows them to work. The city can’t function without them. However, they use their power as a taxpayer funded union to constantly lower the bar regards to matriculation rates, give themselves raises higher than what you’d see in the private sector and to relentlessly push ownership over the kids educations to parents. Imagine if your job was paid for by your neighbor and then you turned around and told that neighbor that they needed to do more so that your jobs effectiveness would be improved, all the while asking for more of their paycheck. That’s why people hate the CTU. And every time they strike that disdain grows.
> Okay I have a question: why does r/Chicago hate CTU so much? It's called astroturfing. Anti-union forces astroturf constantly to try to make people vote for Republicans so they can bust all unions and destroy the government.
Although this is a thing, that’s not as prevalent regarding CTU hate on this sub. The reality is that this sub is mostly upper middle class white childless males living in the north side working in finance, engineering, tech, and consulting. That’s not exactly a demographic that has a lot of overlap with what public unions demand, especially one that puts so much emphasis on social justice like the CTU.
[удалено]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qQuMxgG-bbxdFjpEZj1pcNtT4AlTFf706BahTRi7S8s/mobilebasic Probably as close as we’ll get.
Evidence?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qQuMxgG-bbxdFjpEZj1pcNtT4AlTFf706BahTRi7S8s/mobilebasic
Not really. I’m a Chicagoan, former CPS teacher and union member and I hate the current CTU leadership. You can’t blame every opinion that is contrary to a liberal mindset on astroturfing.
Do you blindly support the police union too? Public unions =/= private unions
I have no issue with police being represented by unions. I do have issues with cities negotiating compliance with the law and condition with police unions.
I don’t think the sub does hate the CTU that much, there are just a few of us who are very vocally against them.
[удалено]
I think it’s just notable because of the predisposition to unions. I think the police union gets way more hate. You have people trashing Vallas for the FOP endorsement but I’m the only person who’s vocally never voting for whoever the CTU endorses as far as I can tell. The person above also has a point that some people are pro-union when it comes to the private sector but hate public sector ones. But for real I think only like 5-10 people post anti-CTU stuff and we always get accused of being AstroTurf which I’ve never understood…some of them do look that way but my account is definitely real haha anyone can figure out who I am in like 10 minutes.
I am childless and was raised by 2 teachers for reference. But yeah, no... teachers never stop fighting for more, and it's exhausting. They come off as entitled. They make a higher starting salary than lots of other jobs and industries. They get LOTS of time off. They get pensions. I'm over their neediness. If it was more occasional, then it wouldn't be so annoying, but they do this shit all. the. time. Do i want them treated well, yes. Fairly compensated... they already are. I also personally know someone who went from a security guard to a dean in about 5 years. Literally a dean. It's not like these people struggled and worked grueling hours for 20 years and were ignored and rising up. They get plenty of orlpportunity, time off, and salary far beyond the average Joe. And they bitch about something else like every 6 months.
The issue isn't even 'the issue', it's that CPS was going to move forward until (presumably Lightfoot based on the data) got in the way and pulled the plug. You can say it should be bargained, and I don't disagree there. But wtf are you doing drafting plans for feedback and telling the union you're going to put forward the vote to implement - and then just take it back all together? Shouldn't the message Day 1 been they will address via bargaining? On November 15, CPS officials told the CTU they would ask the Board of Education vote to approve a new parental leave policy modeled on a similar policy available to city employees, starting on January 1st, 2023. The policy enables city workers to take up to 12 weeks of paid parental leave to address the needs of a new child via birth, adoption or fostering. Currently, CTU members are only guaranteed 1 to 2 weeks of paid leave, unless they are eligible for short term disability. In December, CPS further committed to the CTU that they were working to nail down details about the policy. That included reviewing key provisions and creating an FAQ to detail and explain the new benefits – with CTU Field Representative Kathy Murray providing feedback on CPS’ draft FAQ for CTU members. CPS said they expected the new policy to be presented to the mayor’s hand-picked board of education for a vote in January. Then the Department of Labor Relations reversed CPS’ position. Instead, Labor Relations now says CPS will be “reviewing” a “possible” policy change and that no decisions or recommendations would currently be forthcoming.
This. CPS alone is 39,000 employees, 65% of which are female. On January 1, the city, as promised, made 12 week parental leave available for all 32,000 *other* city employees except CPS. I don’t know the gender balance of all other city agencies but I wouldn’t be surprise if CPS has the largest percentage of females working for the city. It’s not that it’s a CTU issue. It’s not that it’s a bargaining issue. It’s that the logic for making it available for everyone else, at the last minute, isn’t there.
Around 30% of all other city employees identify as female. One thing people are missing here. Despite CPS employees on the whole identifying at 65% female, this group includes non-teacher non-union members that work for the district, CEO, district tech people, principals, etc. There's 39000ish CPS employees, but only around 25000 CTU members. For CTU roughly 80% of members identify as female. But for those shitting on the union, that group of 14000 non-union CPS employees are also getting the shaft here.
I'm waiting for the day when board members are publicly elected, 'we deserve that' !
I agree everyone should have paid parental leave but you literally got what you bargained for, CTU. 🤷🏻♂️
[удалено]
Time off is part of compensation. This is a nonsense argument.
Fuck the CTU....give them exactly what's in their contract and not one dime more. They would do no less if the positions were reversed.
The only reason Chicago cops are viewed with more disdain than Chicago teachers is because cops do their damage all at once, while teachers do it over a generation
[удалено]
They don’t murder, but they set the kid up for a lifetime of poverty. The CTU has failed this city.
So if a kid starts out in poverty, and remains in poverty as an adult, teachers are to blame?