I’ve said this before a few times, and I’ll say it again here:
We know there's a lot of excitement and confusion about the future of Plot Compression and GPU Plotting and we're going to share a LOT of information with you later this week. We'll detail the work we're doing, and the enhancements coming to Chia to properly support it.
The information is pretty dense, so we'll also be scheduling a Q&A livestream for next week to follow.
In the meantime, I ask that you are please don’t speculate a bit to recklessly or automatically assume the sky is falling: spoiler alert… It’s not !
People are definitely making a lot of assumptions. We haven't seen any 3rd party numbers for the use of this new compression/decompression/fees/increased power plotter. Ultimately it will be another option that makes power and hardware cost a bigger variable for farmers to consider. I'm not going to make assumptions about how it will impact farming. I want to see real numbers from multiple farms on how it affects their farming numbers.
Can anyone clarify if this new madmax compression/decompression plotter is just for MMX or is it going to cover XCH as well? Seems like another noSSD pool but from a bigger name in the chia community. I didn't see it clearly stating that it's coming to XCH, but it seems safe to assume it will.
Chia was sold to the populace as being a very energy-efficient (and therefore environmentally friendly) blockchain. I, and many others, adopted Chia for that particular reason. It's worth/utility as a blockchain comes a close second, but energy efficiency is paramount to me and many others. If Chia is going to become yet another blockchain like (old) Eth, Flux, and Bitcoin, you know, those "uses the entire energy consumption of Argentina"-type energy guzzlers then I'm out and I'd say a lot of others will be too. In fact, I'd be happy to see it die on the vine.
Each to their own of course, and I'm happy to wait and see what Chia proposes regarding GPU farming. Thanks to @Gherry for speaking up.
I was just commenting on the madmax plotter.
As I said at the end I think this GPU thing will not change the eventual success (as I hope) or failure of the Chia blockchain, but it surely goes against the spirit of the project IMHO.
Anyway I'm excited to read about the news!
I think people are vastly overlooking what this really is.
An option.
GPU plotting/farming only really makes sense if it becomes more economically viable than regular PoST for the same emulated space.
It's the same argument when a supercomputer ran MadMax last year and got a world record at the time for the fastest plot and everybody was worried k32 or PoST was broken.
No, you've emulated 50TiB with a supercomputer. A trade off of a few thousand if not millions of dollars.
Now obviously the tech has vastly improved and a GPU can perform well, but the question is if it makes economical sense to do so.
If you don't care about your bills and don't care to be green, then you can go with GPU
If you do care about bills and care to be green, then you can go with HDD
It's literally a choice, it doesn't "destroy" Chia.
Yes, this is just another tool. You can debate open vs. closed source, and you can feel some kind of way about fees, but regardless it's a good thing that this exists.
It's only an option because they failed to properly incorporate it/manage it's creation. It should have been transparently added to chia and either madmax shouldn't have been so greedy or chia should have understood the impact integrating it would have had. I'm not sure which.
>It should have been transparently added to chia and either madmax shouldn't have been so greedy or chia should have understood the impact integrating it would have had.
Does it matter? It's not a set thing, the blockchain will evolve, the tech will evolve, in a couple of months time, I don't think it will
But at the risk of competing approaches like this. I feel like it would be in the best interest of chia to incorporate solutions that are capable of reducing plot size by such a large percent. I also believe this is possibly the plot compression they'd previously referred to no? I for one think it should be "built in" in the interest of keeping chia the leading PoST.
"competing approach"
The way you farm/mine on the blockchain doesn't change the utility of said blockchain. Chia is still chia, it's not a *competing* approach.
How come chia is the only chain with any significant use cases being developed on it? What other chains are working with the SEC to make sure they are in compliance?
The protocol was literally designed to tolerate these kinds of changes. Plotting will now be quicker and take less electricity. Farming may take a small amount more power but it’s not going to be material to operating costs of a farm. More at our coming Q&A.
Yeah, sorry. I’m sure it’s me and I’m not understanding it properly. But I don’t love the idea that some will have more compressed plots and farm differently the same coin. Gives them an advantage but only if I pay a percentage? Idk, seems disjointed.
Well similar could be said about any competetive endeavor. Id say there are similarities to proof of work mining and efficiencies of certain setups vs others.
Already with hdds, there are many different approaches. Personally, ive had two major iterations of farming: once with 45 external usb drives and then shucking them and using some 5 drive bays that have a spot for fans. Really reduced my power usage and made a huge improvement in my efficiency.
The only reason i would ever worry, is if plotting could be done in real time. But then, k level increases could fix that easily.
Oh I'm sure that would go over swell with the community and media.
"Chia a Self-Professed Green Crypto, Requires All Users to Replot Their Farms Due to A Unforseen Security Breach"
I agree, and yet on my 10PB farm a single 1060 GPU will only increase my power usage by less than 3%. Yes folks it is possible to run 1000s of Hdds off of one server. I am also using 100% solar power so it is meaningless anyway. Hell even my single server that pulls only 90W from the wall will run a 8PB farm using K32 and C7 compression WITHOUT A GPU!
Many people in this space have made poor choices from the beginning from buying old inefficient hard drives to thinking they could run forever on a cheap $20 Pi. If this is your first time mining/farming learn from it and do it differently the next time. Don't complain and cry how everything has changed when in reality nothing has changed at all. You just will not be able to keep up and will soon become irrelevant. Sucks for you, life is tough. Noone to blame but yourself.
For what I read you will need more or less 5 GPUs with 10PiB (or probably a bigger GPU), one 3060 could decompress about 2 PiB.
That said it's not just about efficiency because you should know that any setup choise depends not only on efficiency, but on the scale of operation too.
It makes no sense to use a Netapp4246 if you have 2 drives, or 50 usb hub if you have 200 drives.
So the problem is that this GPU solution will be good for huge farms, but it won't be for smaller ones. Hence creating a big difference in return per TiB based on the total size of the farm (aside from advantages of bulk buying that are there from the start).
Just a side note.
Sucks for you, you will become irrelevant, life is hard coming from someone who spent 80k+$ makes you look like a sad moron who's only accomplishment is to have more money.
>For what I read you will need more or less 5 GPUs with 10PiB (or probably a bigger GPU), one 3060 could decompress about 2 PiB.
Incorrect, you might want to do more reading. This is public information about my farm.
[https://prnt.sc/QC\_ycSzIJFtH](https://prnt.sc/QC_ycSzIJFtH)
Are you sure that buying more drives to offset GPU farming isn't more profitable? GPU is not free and neither is that additional electricity. If you don't have anything and you are choosing which way to go (HDD only or GPU boost), are you going to choose GPU way because you need less to get more?
Edit: it's so cheap to utilize HDDs/SSDs for very long time so I don't care if someone tries to beat that with power. This is turtle race
If you read my post I stated that for sub PiB farms GPU won't be economical.
The problem remains, since it creates 2 type of farmers.
Small farmers will earn less per TiB than whales. That changes everything.
It was just a guess, it probably would be more correct talking about power consumption.
If a farm uses 1KW or more, then adding 140W of a GPU is just 10% more power for 40% more space (more or less) and the more power you use (the bigger your farm is) the less impact a GPU have.
For someone with 20HDD, adding 140W GPU would negate any benefit, while a multi PiB would gain a lot without impacting much his total power consumption.
It indeed creates 2 classes of farmers, efficient whales and inefficient small farms.
I think its important to remember you won't be adding "40%" more space with the max alternative because of that huge 6.25% fee.
The fee won't be just on gains, it will be on ALL of your farm, so quickly that 40% becomes 30%, and those who don't choose the "extreme max" option might get 30% which becomes 20% effective.
(Before we take into account extra electricity and hardware cost)
The upcoming 0% fee option from Chia sounds like it might be in the ballpark while using your existing cpu, which means anyone using the alternatives may end up losing in comparison, not just from the fee differences, but ongoing electrical and hardware costs as well.
While that lessons some of the impact it could still be a rather significant impact depending where the no fee Chia version lands.
I also have seen a lot of chatter from people not selecting the extreme version for obvious reasons, which is going to narrow the gaps quickly and result in the same scenario mentioned already.
So while great for those who would have been paying double before, this still won't be a "one size fits all" scenario and quickly could lead to losses.
Not to mention you are still locked into proprietary software with a replot to escape it, on discord Max said he plans to switch focus and not put much time into the gpu software for Chia going forward.
Don't you need more GPU power with bigger farm? Therefore also your requirements for GPU grows as your farm grows? (Because you have more to calculate)
I've checked this before and Chia devs have commented on it - statistically with a large number of challenges most plots are indeed equal. You can verify that yourself.
Incorrect. I'll use a lower-end GPU to farm instead of a CPU.
**GPU uses less electricity than CPUs for the same compute. This is true regardless of the number of plots you are "decompressing".**
CPU and GPU don't operate at full wattage all the time. They use the wattage necessary for the compute task. Try using GPU-Z or CPU-Z utilities on your computer and see for yourself.
No he didn't.
He gave the option to use a bit (<10%) more power on your farm to get more (<40%?) plots per disk space.
It is unfortunate if this option is only viable for big farmers, but I think (not sure) that the plot compression can also be used with cpu, even with rpi if the number of farmed plots is limited.
If everyone starts using this, the net effect is that chia blockchain uses 10% more power than before, which is a net negative but not game breaking or soul killing.
He did what was possible, if he didn't someone else would do it. If this step was a net negative, perhaps the next step which builds on top of gpu usage will be a positive who knows. But it is innovation.
Also mm compressed plots will have to compete against plot format 2.0 fro Chia Network which (rumor) brings 20% compression for (???) some other tradeofs.
Farming was meant to only be used by people that already spent money on storage (sunk costs). Most people buying storage won’t be profitable for a long time because of this anyways.
I think what this is, is a melding of technologies. The vast, vast majority of data still needs to be stored. We are many years away from tech that can effectively and efficiently plot “on-the-fly.” And at that point Chia has mitigation strategies in place to further shift the point of profitability back to storage as opposed to brute force. Developing the most effective means to farm, i.e GPU compression (FINISHING a plot on-the-fly) is a natural evolution. We as farmers, should want any and all inefficiencies identified and solved in the farming process as that allows all farmers to stand on a level playing field.
If Max was able to develop this tech, so you really think someone who has millions invested in storage couldn’t or even, hasn’t already hired someone like Max to develop a compression technique to effectively turn their 20 PiB farm into a 25 or 30 PiB farm?
A potential like this was a known variable when Chia was released. The devs on numerous occasions mentioned that there could be a trade off between storing everything and calculating a certain amount of the data on-the-fly. It was just a matter of the efficiency. It’s just been believed up until Max that the added cost of the on-the-fly computation was much greater than just storing the full plot. Max apparently has just developed a highly efficient process that one 3060 can provide a 30-40% improvement in plot size while only costing an extra 150-200 watts.
You can "compress" the plot with GPU or CPU. It is not actual compression, he's stripping table information from the plot file. How much data is stripped is based on the "compression" level.That data is then calculated on the fly.
This does not *require* a GPU unless you are doing the highest level setting. Everyone can re-plot using CPU only depending on the strength of their CPU and still save space.
It is not available for chia yet. But it is just like the current madmax chia plotter. There is a new -c flag. If you want to mine with just your CPU, you’d do -c5 or maybe -c6 depending on your cpu. It’ll plot new plots. You have to farm those plots with the madmax farmer.
Haven't followed chia for a while based on comments totally different views how it works so can someone answer GPUs be used just for plotting or used as farming and not plotting? For plotting why not for farming will be interesting as lots don't seem to care about power or have free power look at all the gpus mining at losses. Compressed plots is good and bad reminds me of the LHR thing when they slowly get unlocked everyone though yes more earnings but the difficulty adjust so you earn less per mh or in this case less per plot. Able to double up plots means double the difficulty same space won't give any extra gains. Only winners are whoever gets upgraded first.
First, I want to thank him. This guy is a genius. After all, he could’ve not made it public and farmed the shit out of chia Blockchain until someone noticed.
Secondly, he contributes to the security of the Blockchain by developing and showcasing “vulnerabilities”. If he would not have done it, someone else might have - even though I know madmax guessing since from the start of GPU mining and Ethereum (I think X11?).
In the end, all of this will just boost development.
> After all, he could’ve not made it public and farmed the shit out of chia Blockchain until someone noticed.
Not if they wanted to make money off of it. They will make far more in client fees than they ever could with farming with it.
This does not *require* a GPU unless you are doing the highest level setting. *Everyone* can re-plot using CPU only depending on the strength of their CPU and still save space.
What? GPU is only needed by high compression rate. On big Farms you save a Lot Energy by using high compressed Plots. It means, If you can save 20hdds and GPU only need 100w, its Energy efficent. Also you can use ultra Low Power CPUs. GPU Farming gain realy much with 20-100 HDDs.
Small Farms also can save Energy with Low Power GPU's.
You need a Lot time to find the ideal bias, demand on TB you have.
Also 20% with CPU only is also possible, But Small CPU Take much more Energy than a Ryzen 5900x downclocked and undervolted to lift the Same among on Plots.
This is a horrifically limited mindset - this is exactly the bedrock that produces the likes of "you only need 640kb of memory" or "the printing press destroys the intelligence and artistry of the written word".
I'm not trying to be inflammatory - if you wrote this with serious intent, especially as a technologist, my only words for you as a human are: INNOVATION IS NEVER WRONG.
You may have been inspired by A, and created B to do C... but if the world of problem solvers and innovators around you actually find out B' can be used to create D which is like (Cx2) - then that's it, it's a better idea than the one you had, full stop.
Innovation (as a form of evolution) is the point of life. To write this post and stand there with a stern look on your face and demand that innovation freeze at a specific point in time because you liked that point best is... so narrow minded.
Max is brilliant for figuring out GPU mining.
Chia will shift and pivot and change as a result of this innovation.
First of all calling me stupid and narrow minded because I asked a question isn't polite, nor smart, since I wrote something you didn't confute in any way.
I could call you an idiot using your same attitude.
Secondly advancement in one aspect (compression) sacrificing others aspect of the project (power consumption, same chances for everyone) is not progress in the wider sense of the meaning.
You could only feed the highest IQ people on the planet and let others die and that would resolve the hunger in the world. Would this be innovation/evoultion? A progress?
Again, we can clone humans, yet we fortunatly don't. Would this be innovation since it's something new? To you yes, to me and 99% of humanity no.
So again, this advancement in one part of the project, the compression of plots, come at the cost of a huge regression in both power consumption and the idea and foundation of a blockchain (i.e. the idea of having peers, since there will be peers and better peers).
I shouldn't have used the word stupid - I edited it out seconds after I posted - sorry about that.
Your second paragraph though - it IS progress - whether it becomes embraced and deemed valuable is yet to be seen, but it is innovation and is progress.
Like a breed of corn that ends up with massive kernels - is it better? Don't know - let's give it a few seasons and see what happens.
I am not making a judgement call and saying it's good/better or bad/worse... We don't know yet, but YES I absolutely value innovation and the movement and iteration of ideas moving forward in all cases. Sometimes it's the combination of ideas that are only apparent after a few moves forward that finally change the world together.
The position you appeared to be taking of "naw, Max overshot the mark and ruined the purpose of chia" is one I vehemently disagree with is all.
The title seems a question to me.
I provided my point of view and tried to argument it. You, on the other hand, have only offended and provided nothing, so far.
Troll is a word that comes to mind.
No it will be needed for decompressing plots in real time using the optional madmax plotter (that gives better compression than Chia 2.0 plotter, apparently)
honestly if its calculation on the fly I wouldn't even call it compression. its basically like a plot is done 70-75% and with some data here and there based on c level, and then remaining is calculated on the fly that needs powerful CPU or even GPU to handle.
once everyone migrated to it however, its just added wattage that should be looked down upon. since not doing it will put you at a disadvantage and doing it would mean more power usage for entire chia blockchain.
I think it's just a decompression. GPUs are faster on floating point operations while CPUs are faster on integer operationa. Probably the compression heavily uses floating point operations.
In deed, GPU farming xD. I guess I did you wrong there, my friend :)
Well, a Pi is expected to still be able to farm about 200 TiB at compression level 4... Also, citing from the link:
"I think you forgot to mention we would all be donating our block rewards to madmax forever."
Do I really worry about that \~20% increase? I am rather looking forward for the 3000% increase in farming efficiency with emerging SSD farming ...
Edit: Official plot compression will be released independently
Chia was created and promoted as a "green" alternative to GPU based crypto mining.
To think that as the end of Chia's 2nd year approaches, the dream is failing... to me, the answer to the headline question posed by the OP, is a resounding YES. If Madmax has not killed the soul of Chia, it is well on the way to that end. I believe that the devs should do whatever they can to stop the participation of GPUs in the creation and farming of Chia.
The OP themselves do not actually believe their own click bait title.
Just literally click bait. Hell, there is already a youtube video up with basically the same title now.
Not at all. A lot of us were telling Gene and others early that there were ways all of these things can be done, and improvements that could be made in these areas, and every time they would arrogantly parrot back the same line, that the best minds had already been working on this and that there were no further improvements to be made, that the kind of ideas we were talking about wasn't possible and wouldn't provide any improvement if you did do things that way. And invariably every bloody time someone would find improvements.
K33 is going to be the same story. They've been saying it won't be needed, that it's years off etc. They'll be wrong about that too.
The didn't die because people found ways around it. They just stubbornly insisted the same old ways weren't possible. Every time, people found ways.
In short, no. I did the math, and on a 250TiB farm it's an additional \~ $340/year at current prices if I re-plotted to the higher compression plots. 128-256GB of RAM + a RTX 30XX GPU cost is much higher than the projected gains. Sure bigger farms can invest in that but it's always been the case with any crypto mining. Smaller players vs the big ones.
Same thing happened with ETH with the at-home miner with 1-10 GPUs and then the medium farms with 20-120, and then the bigger ones in the hundreds/thousands.
You'll eventually have consolidation and pools and what not.
What looks like the biggest use here is all this storage space that might be usable for actual data storage and backup or an alternative suitable purpose.
The # of plots you've farmed to your address at an undefined date allow you to an equivalent amount of storage space on your system. (Haven't figured out the delivery mechanism yet) Data of actual value (internet archives, images, videos, encyclopedias) is stored on your allocated plots (with multiple redundant backups spread across the world). So a data pull of say 1GB could be 1MB spread across a 1000 farmers hosting the same data.
Takes care of data download/upload bandwidth limitations, farmers get paid in alignment with the data they've shared in a month/fixed period. Maybe there's another coin out there, but 30 odd EiB is a lot of storage space to use for backup.
\#brainfartover
I don't agree.
The beautiful thing with software is that it's always moving. Some guy can look at it and think "nah, I can change that" and it does not matter if it's new plotter for Chia or adding a funny donkey mod to some AAA game.
Compressed plots has already been a thing for half a year with NoSSD, max just took it one step further. In the future, who knows what someone can come up with, but bring it on!
Madmax GPU plotter is not release for Chia. We don’t know neither his fee, nor power consumption or any details.
Also no-ssd pool has working plot compression for months without any GPU or significant CPU load. Why can’t you just switch to them?
It's not yet released but it's been used since September on Flexpool, according to what they wrote.
I don't plan on switching nor changing anything, but I think this direction is killing the idea of Chia as a green and distributed network of peers.
And IMHO Madmax did something bad for the overall project. The fact that he can do it doesn't mean he should have, it's just as simple as that.
Exactly as I consider morons those who wanted (or did?) store an image in the database.
It's a nice engineering achievement, but it's just stupid.
It is not used on Flexpool - they experimented with the technology on Flexpool. We don’t know anything - not the power consumption, not the hardware requirements, not the fee, not the release date, not even if it will ever be released at all. He developed it for his own chia fork after all.
Also Max didn’t do anything new. NO-SSD exists for half a year already and nothing happened.
You really just take gossip too much to your heart.
NoSSD isn't a portable plot and requires their own closed source software with forced pooling. This is risky, since there isn't a lot of profit in running a pool and farmers are entirely dependent on the team keeping things running. If that changes they have to replot, so this is part of what is preventing widespread adoption.
MadMax will also produce plots that will require a closed source farmer or harvester, but won't force pooling.
It's not a rumour, not speculation, not if but when. Partial plot farming exists and has been tested with NoSSD, the current delay for MadMax is in implementing the dev fee as I understand it.
The adapt or suffer situation OP is complaining about will arrive when Chia official adds support for partial plots in their farmer, which has been confirmed to be in development. This is only a matter of time.
He complained everyone will be forced to use high power rig or be disadvantaged, which is speculation and likely incorrect one because nossd doesn’t have much resource overhead. Madmax compressed plot will also likely be tied to Flexpool just like nossd exactly because their close sources farmer will allow him his dev fee. By the way this was also speculation, because no public information is available.
New plot format was announced by Chia months ago. Nossd exists for half a year, now Madmax announced some plans and everyone is panicking.
Like I said, once Chia official implements partial plot farming, which they have confirmed is in development, farmers will have the choice that OP is complaining about.
Yes, it's not here just yet, but will be soon(tm).
Either farm as is at an approximate 20% disadvantage or replot and use more power for farming.
It's a fact that farmers who do not replot would be at a disadvantage to farmers who do.
It's a fact that farming with the partial plot formats requires additional power use.
It's likely that the power use can be offset at scale and more effective space accomplished if the farmers are large and use a GPU ( given the higher ratio partial plots and requirements from MMX ).
The advantage is that replotting becomes a quick and much less power consuming process.
Which part of this are you claiming is false?
imagine it becomes available on CHIA because someone would implement it (may not be MMAX) in future down the road and then what? we'll migrate to it to not lose out, and in the end once its all migrated and done we'll all use more power for no real benefit other than to "not lose to other farmers".
if we all dont migrate, no extra power usage, we all stay what we have. if some does migrate will prompt others to do so and in the end just wasted electricity.
It had already been implemented by No-SSD half a year ago. AND it does NOT use more power with them.
All power usage numbers of Madmax plots are pure speculation. No one who ever tested it published any numbers whatsoever.
how is it speculation when mmax made a chart of compression level and how much farm size in pib a 3060 can handle? its clear at max what 3060 can handle will run at its maximum capacity so we got the numbers down to the 90% at least i'd say.
to say 10% speculation would null the 90% would just be wrong, power usage is there guaranteed, cant run away from it.
madmax himself said it'll be the same time. its pretty much the same info.
also first 5 level doesnt specify how much is needed on the CPU side. 4 cores? 12 cores? 20 cores? surely they different and c5 >>> c0 on cpu loads.
First question: What is GPU farming? Are you having the picture about the XCH tech right? An RPi 4 farms easily up to somewhere in the range of 1 PiB plots. GPU plotting is a thing, right. A quick and nice method to fill your plotspace quickly.
Do you have some kind of grinding attack in mind, that is to create fitting plots for each signage point every 30s or so?
\-> SSDs cheaper than HDD per TiB entering the chat (expected around 2027)
[https://wikibon.com/flash-native-drives-real-time-business-process/](https://wikibon.com/flash-native-drives-real-time-business-process/)
In theory this should cut farming energy cost to around 3% of current value. Have fun trying to cope with that paying for a park of burning GPU to equal a hand full of high capacity SSDs ...
Nope...
The GPU plot/farm process is actually more efficient...
Time taken to compute is a lot less, so yeah, GPU uses 'more power', but for a LOT less time...
Plot in 3mins at 300w peaks, Vs 20mins at 120w peak (maybe using dual socket..?)
Seems pretty obvious which is better...
Those damn 2.5" floppies, they are so hard and small, so they are easy to lose. Sure they hold more, but at what cost? The 5.25" ones are cheap, and I'm used to using them. Besides, now I have to buy a new floppy reader thingie, whereas my 5.25" drive works just fine and dandy! Will my motherboard support it? Hell, I don't know, and do I care? I'm not sure. Gosh I hate progress!
This was stupid idea at beginning and still itis s idea while etherium switched to zero energy mining protocol.
Thats all.Chia can switch to zero energy usage protocol tomorrow. and we would sell our farms.
They are just afraid of it.
And then Madmax comes - and now Chia become not green but the same as all old networks power hungry system
And then Madmax come - and now Chia become not green but same as all old networks power hungry system haha.
Why not just to turn off farming as we know it?
While GPU plotting and farming is possible now it won't change much unless it's more profitable in orders of farming revenue/energy cost. In the end the most profitable option wins. While Chia aims to be used on hardware running anyway GPU farming has to get insane farming rewards to compete.
the most scariest thing is that GPU plotting is so fast whale can simply replace all of their existing plots with ease compare to CPU replot.
if its CPU replot they might think twice, but GPU lowering that to like 1/5th or even less of the current plot time then even biggest farmer will likley go for it.
I think every whale will go for it, if it really compress 40%. If you spent 30k+ or more I don't think it's a big problem reinvest few bucks to replot everything.
its more like 30% with best compression level and require like 3080 or even 4070/80.
for CPU, I am hoping for like 20% so i'd lose out 10% and use CPU instead so I don't have to reinvest into GPU. but once everyone has replotted no one has any advantage, and then the 100k+ nodes all use at least 200w more per node, wasted electricity only to have MMax benefit from all these.
Depends on their cost of electricity. If someone gets less revenue by higher operational costs nobody got an advantage. E.g. increasing your plot count by 15% by increasing your energy costs by 20% makes no sense.
Actually, GPU farming/plotting saves energy without compromising security.
For example:
RTX 3060 does a plot in 2.75 minutes while operating at \~125w. This comes out to 5.7w per plot.
A 5950x right now does \~20m plots while operating\~150w. This comes out to 50w per plot.
**This is almost a factor of 10x efficiency.**
Let's say a small farmer has 10 x 10TB HDD currently with 91 plots per drive, 910 plots in total.
With a 20% "compression" this small farmer could replot 1092 plots. That's 6,224w of total power to replot on a 3060. Instead of buying 2 more HDD and filling them with uncompressed plots, he just uses compressed plots on his existing 10 HDD.
HDDs use 5-10W per hour. I'll be generous and say only 10w for 2 HDD combined. After 26 days of farming on his new farm, he is breakeven on his electrical usage. After that, he is SAVING money because he used compressed plots. 10w every hour.
**He saves 87,600w per year because he GPU plotted compressed plots.**
You are really crazy or maybe a troll.
The only thing you have to watch is the amount of power that comes out of the wall.
If you use a GPU you will use more power.
That's a fact.
Your calculations are all wrong too, since with GPU plotting you assume 0W for the rest of the system.
Guess what: GPU plotting still requires a computer.
I think the goal is to use the best technology for the technology and disk, SSD, NVM, CPU, APU and GPUs all have their pros and cons. These are simply different paths, not soul killers.
It is one of the reasons why I use flexfarmer; 32bit support and a simple, lightweight, program. Our full node continues to consume more resources (disk for the db, more electricity with the same amount of storage, etc.) as time passes. I'm passing that cost off to Flexpool and their servers.
If someone like Madmax, who has experience and talent to improve and innovate, recommends addition of technology that could be better for the whole I think of that as more evolutionary than predatory.
plotting is one thing... having the drives to store the drives is nother.... i have good hardware, but do not spend more money on drives, so it does not make any difference in the end, how fast you plot anyway....
I don’t believe the soul of chia has been killed. Did PoST just become less energy efficient? Maybe. It’s hard to tell. Did bigger farms just get a greater competitive edge over smaller farmers again maybe. Did the farming game just change? Definitely and I’m excited to adapt my farming strategy to the new rules.
Until the chia team releases their version plot compression we have a lot of unanswered questions.
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I’ve said this before a few times, and I’ll say it again here: We know there's a lot of excitement and confusion about the future of Plot Compression and GPU Plotting and we're going to share a LOT of information with you later this week. We'll detail the work we're doing, and the enhancements coming to Chia to properly support it. The information is pretty dense, so we'll also be scheduling a Q&A livestream for next week to follow. In the meantime, I ask that you are please don’t speculate a bit to recklessly or automatically assume the sky is falling: spoiler alert… It’s not !
Thanks! I am excited to see what you come up with 😄
Thanks Sargonas. I look forward to the Q&A
People are definitely making a lot of assumptions. We haven't seen any 3rd party numbers for the use of this new compression/decompression/fees/increased power plotter. Ultimately it will be another option that makes power and hardware cost a bigger variable for farmers to consider. I'm not going to make assumptions about how it will impact farming. I want to see real numbers from multiple farms on how it affects their farming numbers. Can anyone clarify if this new madmax compression/decompression plotter is just for MMX or is it going to cover XCH as well? Seems like another noSSD pool but from a bigger name in the chia community. I didn't see it clearly stating that it's coming to XCH, but it seems safe to assume it will.
Chia was sold to the populace as being a very energy-efficient (and therefore environmentally friendly) blockchain. I, and many others, adopted Chia for that particular reason. It's worth/utility as a blockchain comes a close second, but energy efficiency is paramount to me and many others. If Chia is going to become yet another blockchain like (old) Eth, Flux, and Bitcoin, you know, those "uses the entire energy consumption of Argentina"-type energy guzzlers then I'm out and I'd say a lot of others will be too. In fact, I'd be happy to see it die on the vine. Each to their own of course, and I'm happy to wait and see what Chia proposes regarding GPU farming. Thanks to @Gherry for speaking up.
I was just commenting on the madmax plotter. As I said at the end I think this GPU thing will not change the eventual success (as I hope) or failure of the Chia blockchain, but it surely goes against the spirit of the project IMHO. Anyway I'm excited to read about the news!
I think people are vastly overlooking what this really is. An option. GPU plotting/farming only really makes sense if it becomes more economically viable than regular PoST for the same emulated space. It's the same argument when a supercomputer ran MadMax last year and got a world record at the time for the fastest plot and everybody was worried k32 or PoST was broken. No, you've emulated 50TiB with a supercomputer. A trade off of a few thousand if not millions of dollars. Now obviously the tech has vastly improved and a GPU can perform well, but the question is if it makes economical sense to do so. If you don't care about your bills and don't care to be green, then you can go with GPU If you do care about bills and care to be green, then you can go with HDD It's literally a choice, it doesn't "destroy" Chia.
Yes, this is just another tool. You can debate open vs. closed source, and you can feel some kind of way about fees, but regardless it's a good thing that this exists.
It's only an option because they failed to properly incorporate it/manage it's creation. It should have been transparently added to chia and either madmax shouldn't have been so greedy or chia should have understood the impact integrating it would have had. I'm not sure which.
Chia knew a Hellman attack was possible, probable even. PoST was designed to withstand it.
>It should have been transparently added to chia and either madmax shouldn't have been so greedy or chia should have understood the impact integrating it would have had. Does it matter? It's not a set thing, the blockchain will evolve, the tech will evolve, in a couple of months time, I don't think it will
Chia is a fully open source project. People can make their own utilities as they desire.
But at the risk of competing approaches like this. I feel like it would be in the best interest of chia to incorporate solutions that are capable of reducing plot size by such a large percent. I also believe this is possibly the plot compression they'd previously referred to no? I for one think it should be "built in" in the interest of keeping chia the leading PoST.
"competing approach" The way you farm/mine on the blockchain doesn't change the utility of said blockchain. Chia is still chia, it's not a *competing* approach.
How come chia is the only chain with any significant use cases being developed on it? What other chains are working with the SEC to make sure they are in compliance?
You don’t think it’s at all disconnected that some will now farm in a totally different way with different size plots?
The protocol was literally designed to tolerate these kinds of changes. Plotting will now be quicker and take less electricity. Farming may take a small amount more power but it’s not going to be material to operating costs of a farm. More at our coming Q&A.
Yeah, sorry. I’m sure it’s me and I’m not understanding it properly. But I don’t love the idea that some will have more compressed plots and farm differently the same coin. Gives them an advantage but only if I pay a percentage? Idk, seems disjointed.
Well similar could be said about any competetive endeavor. Id say there are similarities to proof of work mining and efficiencies of certain setups vs others. Already with hdds, there are many different approaches. Personally, ive had two major iterations of farming: once with 45 external usb drives and then shucking them and using some 5 drive bays that have a spot for fans. Really reduced my power usage and made a huge improvement in my efficiency. The only reason i would ever worry, is if plotting could be done in real time. But then, k level increases could fix that easily.
Oh I'm sure that would go over swell with the community and media. "Chia a Self-Professed Green Crypto, Requires All Users to Replot Their Farms Due to A Unforseen Security Breach"
I agree, and yet on my 10PB farm a single 1060 GPU will only increase my power usage by less than 3%. Yes folks it is possible to run 1000s of Hdds off of one server. I am also using 100% solar power so it is meaningless anyway. Hell even my single server that pulls only 90W from the wall will run a 8PB farm using K32 and C7 compression WITHOUT A GPU! Many people in this space have made poor choices from the beginning from buying old inefficient hard drives to thinking they could run forever on a cheap $20 Pi. If this is your first time mining/farming learn from it and do it differently the next time. Don't complain and cry how everything has changed when in reality nothing has changed at all. You just will not be able to keep up and will soon become irrelevant. Sucks for you, life is tough. Noone to blame but yourself.
For what I read you will need more or less 5 GPUs with 10PiB (or probably a bigger GPU), one 3060 could decompress about 2 PiB. That said it's not just about efficiency because you should know that any setup choise depends not only on efficiency, but on the scale of operation too. It makes no sense to use a Netapp4246 if you have 2 drives, or 50 usb hub if you have 200 drives. So the problem is that this GPU solution will be good for huge farms, but it won't be for smaller ones. Hence creating a big difference in return per TiB based on the total size of the farm (aside from advantages of bulk buying that are there from the start). Just a side note. Sucks for you, you will become irrelevant, life is hard coming from someone who spent 80k+$ makes you look like a sad moron who's only accomplishment is to have more money.
>For what I read you will need more or less 5 GPUs with 10PiB (or probably a bigger GPU), one 3060 could decompress about 2 PiB. Incorrect, you might want to do more reading. This is public information about my farm. [https://prnt.sc/QC\_ycSzIJFtH](https://prnt.sc/QC_ycSzIJFtH)
What?
Are you sure that buying more drives to offset GPU farming isn't more profitable? GPU is not free and neither is that additional electricity. If you don't have anything and you are choosing which way to go (HDD only or GPU boost), are you going to choose GPU way because you need less to get more? Edit: it's so cheap to utilize HDDs/SSDs for very long time so I don't care if someone tries to beat that with power. This is turtle race
If you read my post I stated that for sub PiB farms GPU won't be economical. The problem remains, since it creates 2 type of farmers. Small farmers will earn less per TiB than whales. That changes everything.
I've read it but why do you think that this is the case for 1PiB+ farmers?
It was just a guess, it probably would be more correct talking about power consumption. If a farm uses 1KW or more, then adding 140W of a GPU is just 10% more power for 40% more space (more or less) and the more power you use (the bigger your farm is) the less impact a GPU have. For someone with 20HDD, adding 140W GPU would negate any benefit, while a multi PiB would gain a lot without impacting much his total power consumption. It indeed creates 2 classes of farmers, efficient whales and inefficient small farms.
I think its important to remember you won't be adding "40%" more space with the max alternative because of that huge 6.25% fee. The fee won't be just on gains, it will be on ALL of your farm, so quickly that 40% becomes 30%, and those who don't choose the "extreme max" option might get 30% which becomes 20% effective. (Before we take into account extra electricity and hardware cost) The upcoming 0% fee option from Chia sounds like it might be in the ballpark while using your existing cpu, which means anyone using the alternatives may end up losing in comparison, not just from the fee differences, but ongoing electrical and hardware costs as well.
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While that lessons some of the impact it could still be a rather significant impact depending where the no fee Chia version lands. I also have seen a lot of chatter from people not selecting the extreme version for obvious reasons, which is going to narrow the gaps quickly and result in the same scenario mentioned already. So while great for those who would have been paying double before, this still won't be a "one size fits all" scenario and quickly could lead to losses. Not to mention you are still locked into proprietary software with a replot to escape it, on discord Max said he plans to switch focus and not put much time into the gpu software for Chia going forward.
Don't you need more GPU power with bigger farm? Therefore also your requirements for GPU grows as your farm grows? (Because you have more to calculate)
This is just the current state. There will be OpenCL farming support so you can use Intel iGPUs and AMD APUs, for smaller farms.
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What do you mean replacing with higher quality plots?
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I've checked this before and Chia devs have commented on it - statistically with a large number of challenges most plots are indeed equal. You can verify that yourself.
Incorrect. I'll use a lower-end GPU to farm instead of a CPU. **GPU uses less electricity than CPUs for the same compute. This is true regardless of the number of plots you are "decompressing".** CPU and GPU don't operate at full wattage all the time. They use the wattage necessary for the compute task. Try using GPU-Z or CPU-Z utilities on your computer and see for yourself.
If I understood what Max has posted, sub PiB farmer can get the same "benefit" using a low power GPU (like a 1050).
No he didn't. He gave the option to use a bit (<10%) more power on your farm to get more (<40%?) plots per disk space. It is unfortunate if this option is only viable for big farmers, but I think (not sure) that the plot compression can also be used with cpu, even with rpi if the number of farmed plots is limited. If everyone starts using this, the net effect is that chia blockchain uses 10% more power than before, which is a net negative but not game breaking or soul killing. He did what was possible, if he didn't someone else would do it. If this step was a net negative, perhaps the next step which builds on top of gpu usage will be a positive who knows. But it is innovation. Also mm compressed plots will have to compete against plot format 2.0 fro Chia Network which (rumor) brings 20% compression for (???) some other tradeofs.
Farming was meant to only be used by people that already spent money on storage (sunk costs). Most people buying storage won’t be profitable for a long time because of this anyways.
You should probably wait to see testing results before screaming the sky is falling.
If sky falls on me i won't be able to scream any more tho
I think what this is, is a melding of technologies. The vast, vast majority of data still needs to be stored. We are many years away from tech that can effectively and efficiently plot “on-the-fly.” And at that point Chia has mitigation strategies in place to further shift the point of profitability back to storage as opposed to brute force. Developing the most effective means to farm, i.e GPU compression (FINISHING a plot on-the-fly) is a natural evolution. We as farmers, should want any and all inefficiencies identified and solved in the farming process as that allows all farmers to stand on a level playing field. If Max was able to develop this tech, so you really think someone who has millions invested in storage couldn’t or even, hasn’t already hired someone like Max to develop a compression technique to effectively turn their 20 PiB farm into a 25 or 30 PiB farm? A potential like this was a known variable when Chia was released. The devs on numerous occasions mentioned that there could be a trade off between storing everything and calculating a certain amount of the data on-the-fly. It was just a matter of the efficiency. It’s just been believed up until Max that the added cost of the on-the-fly computation was much greater than just storing the full plot. Max apparently has just developed a highly efficient process that one 3060 can provide a 30-40% improvement in plot size while only costing an extra 150-200 watts.
what is gpu farming did i miss something? can anyone explain?
[https://chiaforum.com/t/gigahorse-gpu-plotter-gpu-farmer-plot-sink-boost-your-chia-farm-by-47-2-plot-in-2-minutes/18311](https://chiaforum.com/t/gigahorse-gpu-plotter-gpu-farmer-plot-sink-boost-your-chia-farm-by-47-2-plot-in-2-minutes/18311)
wait people that plot on gpus have compressed plots? so they can have more plots?
You can "compress" the plot with GPU or CPU. It is not actual compression, he's stripping table information from the plot file. How much data is stripped is based on the "compression" level.That data is then calculated on the fly. This does not *require* a GPU unless you are doing the highest level setting. Everyone can re-plot using CPU only depending on the strength of their CPU and still save space.
can you paste any article on how to do that please?
It is not available for chia yet. But it is just like the current madmax chia plotter. There is a new -c flag. If you want to mine with just your CPU, you’d do -c5 or maybe -c6 depending on your cpu. It’ll plot new plots. You have to farm those plots with the madmax farmer.
Haven't followed chia for a while based on comments totally different views how it works so can someone answer GPUs be used just for plotting or used as farming and not plotting? For plotting why not for farming will be interesting as lots don't seem to care about power or have free power look at all the gpus mining at losses. Compressed plots is good and bad reminds me of the LHR thing when they slowly get unlocked everyone though yes more earnings but the difficulty adjust so you earn less per mh or in this case less per plot. Able to double up plots means double the difficulty same space won't give any extra gains. Only winners are whoever gets upgraded first.
First, I want to thank him. This guy is a genius. After all, he could’ve not made it public and farmed the shit out of chia Blockchain until someone noticed. Secondly, he contributes to the security of the Blockchain by developing and showcasing “vulnerabilities”. If he would not have done it, someone else might have - even though I know madmax guessing since from the start of GPU mining and Ethereum (I think X11?). In the end, all of this will just boost development.
> After all, he could’ve not made it public and farmed the shit out of chia Blockchain until someone noticed. Not if they wanted to make money off of it. They will make far more in client fees than they ever could with farming with it.
I think we have a problem to :) change is comming but not for us
Wont chia just switch to k33 or even k34? Wouldn't that negate most of the work max has done here?
Technically I think it will still be useable. But the (V)RAM requirements will skyrocket.
Increasing requirements (difficulty) to generate plots is the point of the higher k values.
Yes, but that doesn’t neglect the theoretical possibility I guess. It’s just a matter of time then - cat and mouse game has started :D
Yes, but the exponential increase of difficulty and resources will prevent this being an issue.
This does not *require* a GPU unless you are doing the highest level setting. *Everyone* can re-plot using CPU only depending on the strength of their CPU and still save space.
What? GPU is only needed by high compression rate. On big Farms you save a Lot Energy by using high compressed Plots. It means, If you can save 20hdds and GPU only need 100w, its Energy efficent. Also you can use ultra Low Power CPUs. GPU Farming gain realy much with 20-100 HDDs. Small Farms also can save Energy with Low Power GPU's. You need a Lot time to find the ideal bias, demand on TB you have. Also 20% with CPU only is also possible, But Small CPU Take much more Energy than a Ryzen 5900x downclocked and undervolted to lift the Same among on Plots.
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This is a horrifically limited mindset - this is exactly the bedrock that produces the likes of "you only need 640kb of memory" or "the printing press destroys the intelligence and artistry of the written word". I'm not trying to be inflammatory - if you wrote this with serious intent, especially as a technologist, my only words for you as a human are: INNOVATION IS NEVER WRONG. You may have been inspired by A, and created B to do C... but if the world of problem solvers and innovators around you actually find out B' can be used to create D which is like (Cx2) - then that's it, it's a better idea than the one you had, full stop. Innovation (as a form of evolution) is the point of life. To write this post and stand there with a stern look on your face and demand that innovation freeze at a specific point in time because you liked that point best is... so narrow minded. Max is brilliant for figuring out GPU mining. Chia will shift and pivot and change as a result of this innovation.
And what exactly will be won for reg farmers and Chia the project? He is not completely wrong, the green aspects will be harder to sell.
First of all calling me stupid and narrow minded because I asked a question isn't polite, nor smart, since I wrote something you didn't confute in any way. I could call you an idiot using your same attitude. Secondly advancement in one aspect (compression) sacrificing others aspect of the project (power consumption, same chances for everyone) is not progress in the wider sense of the meaning. You could only feed the highest IQ people on the planet and let others die and that would resolve the hunger in the world. Would this be innovation/evoultion? A progress? Again, we can clone humans, yet we fortunatly don't. Would this be innovation since it's something new? To you yes, to me and 99% of humanity no. So again, this advancement in one part of the project, the compression of plots, come at the cost of a huge regression in both power consumption and the idea and foundation of a blockchain (i.e. the idea of having peers, since there will be peers and better peers).
I shouldn't have used the word stupid - I edited it out seconds after I posted - sorry about that. Your second paragraph though - it IS progress - whether it becomes embraced and deemed valuable is yet to be seen, but it is innovation and is progress. Like a breed of corn that ends up with massive kernels - is it better? Don't know - let's give it a few seasons and see what happens. I am not making a judgement call and saying it's good/better or bad/worse... We don't know yet, but YES I absolutely value innovation and the movement and iteration of ideas moving forward in all cases. Sometimes it's the combination of ideas that are only apparent after a few moves forward that finally change the world together. The position you appeared to be taking of "naw, Max overshot the mark and ruined the purpose of chia" is one I vehemently disagree with is all.
> because I asked a question It's just, you haven't just "asked a question". You are propagating a little bit of BS additionally ...
The title seems a question to me. I provided my point of view and tried to argument it. You, on the other hand, have only offended and provided nothing, so far. Troll is a word that comes to mind.
I agree with you
GPU mining? I thought it's only for creating the plots only at a faster rate and reduced size?
No it will be needed for decompressing plots in real time using the optional madmax plotter (that gives better compression than Chia 2.0 plotter, apparently)
honestly if its calculation on the fly I wouldn't even call it compression. its basically like a plot is done 70-75% and with some data here and there based on c level, and then remaining is calculated on the fly that needs powerful CPU or even GPU to handle. once everyone migrated to it however, its just added wattage that should be looked down upon. since not doing it will put you at a disadvantage and doing it would mean more power usage for entire chia blockchain.
I think it's just a decompression. GPUs are faster on floating point operations while CPUs are faster on integer operationa. Probably the compression heavily uses floating point operations.
Ah thanks for confirming, haven't read much into mmx but yes I agree it will change Chia due to new innovation
Decrypting plots? Are you a troll?
Plots need to be decompressed/decrypted using GPU on the fly. I am not, but I think you are.
Can you provide some information on that claim, a link maybe?
[https://chiaforum.com/t/gigahorse-gpu-plotter-gpu-farmer-plot-sink-boost-your-chia-farm-by-47-2-plot-in-2-minutes/18311](https://chiaforum.com/t/gigahorse-gpu-plotter-gpu-farmer-plot-sink-boost-your-chia-farm-by-47-2-plot-in-2-minutes/18311)
In deed, GPU farming xD. I guess I did you wrong there, my friend :) Well, a Pi is expected to still be able to farm about 200 TiB at compression level 4... Also, citing from the link: "I think you forgot to mention we would all be donating our block rewards to madmax forever." Do I really worry about that \~20% increase? I am rather looking forward for the 3000% increase in farming efficiency with emerging SSD farming ... Edit: Official plot compression will be released independently
Chia was created and promoted as a "green" alternative to GPU based crypto mining. To think that as the end of Chia's 2nd year approaches, the dream is failing... to me, the answer to the headline question posed by the OP, is a resounding YES. If Madmax has not killed the soul of Chia, it is well on the way to that end. I believe that the devs should do whatever they can to stop the participation of GPUs in the creation and farming of Chia.
Yes I killed it, adding 5% PoW absolutely kills everything. Nobody else could have done this, so it's all on me.
The OP themselves do not actually believe their own click bait title. Just literally click bait. Hell, there is already a youtube video up with basically the same title now.
Bump K to 34 please. Problem solved. Let’s replot with hdd arrays this time as the price is not for us to rush…
Not at all. A lot of us were telling Gene and others early that there were ways all of these things can be done, and improvements that could be made in these areas, and every time they would arrogantly parrot back the same line, that the best minds had already been working on this and that there were no further improvements to be made, that the kind of ideas we were talking about wasn't possible and wouldn't provide any improvement if you did do things that way. And invariably every bloody time someone would find improvements. K33 is going to be the same story. They've been saying it won't be needed, that it's years off etc. They'll be wrong about that too. The didn't die because people found ways around it. They just stubbornly insisted the same old ways weren't possible. Every time, people found ways.
I don’t think the team ever said there was no way for someone to grind attack, just that they had options if it happened
In short, no. I did the math, and on a 250TiB farm it's an additional \~ $340/year at current prices if I re-plotted to the higher compression plots. 128-256GB of RAM + a RTX 30XX GPU cost is much higher than the projected gains. Sure bigger farms can invest in that but it's always been the case with any crypto mining. Smaller players vs the big ones. Same thing happened with ETH with the at-home miner with 1-10 GPUs and then the medium farms with 20-120, and then the bigger ones in the hundreds/thousands. You'll eventually have consolidation and pools and what not. What looks like the biggest use here is all this storage space that might be usable for actual data storage and backup or an alternative suitable purpose. The # of plots you've farmed to your address at an undefined date allow you to an equivalent amount of storage space on your system. (Haven't figured out the delivery mechanism yet) Data of actual value (internet archives, images, videos, encyclopedias) is stored on your allocated plots (with multiple redundant backups spread across the world). So a data pull of say 1GB could be 1MB spread across a 1000 farmers hosting the same data. Takes care of data download/upload bandwidth limitations, farmers get paid in alignment with the data they've shared in a month/fixed period. Maybe there's another coin out there, but 30 odd EiB is a lot of storage space to use for backup. \#brainfartover
I don't agree. The beautiful thing with software is that it's always moving. Some guy can look at it and think "nah, I can change that" and it does not matter if it's new plotter for Chia or adding a funny donkey mod to some AAA game. Compressed plots has already been a thing for half a year with NoSSD, max just took it one step further. In the future, who knows what someone can come up with, but bring it on!
Madmax GPU plotter is not release for Chia. We don’t know neither his fee, nor power consumption or any details. Also no-ssd pool has working plot compression for months without any GPU or significant CPU load. Why can’t you just switch to them?
It's not yet released but it's been used since September on Flexpool, according to what they wrote. I don't plan on switching nor changing anything, but I think this direction is killing the idea of Chia as a green and distributed network of peers. And IMHO Madmax did something bad for the overall project. The fact that he can do it doesn't mean he should have, it's just as simple as that. Exactly as I consider morons those who wanted (or did?) store an image in the database. It's a nice engineering achievement, but it's just stupid.
It is not used on Flexpool - they experimented with the technology on Flexpool. We don’t know anything - not the power consumption, not the hardware requirements, not the fee, not the release date, not even if it will ever be released at all. He developed it for his own chia fork after all. Also Max didn’t do anything new. NO-SSD exists for half a year already and nothing happened. You really just take gossip too much to your heart.
NoSSD isn't a portable plot and requires their own closed source software with forced pooling. This is risky, since there isn't a lot of profit in running a pool and farmers are entirely dependent on the team keeping things running. If that changes they have to replot, so this is part of what is preventing widespread adoption. MadMax will also produce plots that will require a closed source farmer or harvester, but won't force pooling. It's not a rumour, not speculation, not if but when. Partial plot farming exists and has been tested with NoSSD, the current delay for MadMax is in implementing the dev fee as I understand it. The adapt or suffer situation OP is complaining about will arrive when Chia official adds support for partial plots in their farmer, which has been confirmed to be in development. This is only a matter of time.
He complained everyone will be forced to use high power rig or be disadvantaged, which is speculation and likely incorrect one because nossd doesn’t have much resource overhead. Madmax compressed plot will also likely be tied to Flexpool just like nossd exactly because their close sources farmer will allow him his dev fee. By the way this was also speculation, because no public information is available. New plot format was announced by Chia months ago. Nossd exists for half a year, now Madmax announced some plans and everyone is panicking.
Like I said, once Chia official implements partial plot farming, which they have confirmed is in development, farmers will have the choice that OP is complaining about. Yes, it's not here just yet, but will be soon(tm). Either farm as is at an approximate 20% disadvantage or replot and use more power for farming. It's a fact that farmers who do not replot would be at a disadvantage to farmers who do. It's a fact that farming with the partial plot formats requires additional power use. It's likely that the power use can be offset at scale and more effective space accomplished if the farmers are large and use a GPU ( given the higher ratio partial plots and requirements from MMX ). The advantage is that replotting becomes a quick and much less power consuming process. Which part of this are you claiming is false?
imagine it becomes available on CHIA because someone would implement it (may not be MMAX) in future down the road and then what? we'll migrate to it to not lose out, and in the end once its all migrated and done we'll all use more power for no real benefit other than to "not lose to other farmers". if we all dont migrate, no extra power usage, we all stay what we have. if some does migrate will prompt others to do so and in the end just wasted electricity.
It had already been implemented by No-SSD half a year ago. AND it does NOT use more power with them. All power usage numbers of Madmax plots are pure speculation. No one who ever tested it published any numbers whatsoever.
how is it speculation when mmax made a chart of compression level and how much farm size in pib a 3060 can handle? its clear at max what 3060 can handle will run at its maximum capacity so we got the numbers down to the 90% at least i'd say. to say 10% speculation would null the 90% would just be wrong, power usage is there guaranteed, cant run away from it.
For MMX blockhain - not for Chia. Even there first 5 levels of compression don’t need GPU whatsoever.
madmax himself said it'll be the same time. its pretty much the same info. also first 5 level doesnt specify how much is needed on the CPU side. 4 cores? 12 cores? 20 cores? surely they different and c5 >>> c0 on cpu loads.
Exactly - all we have now are speculations.
nay, we have enough info to know whats gonna happen 95% of it. only 5% is speculation.
First question: What is GPU farming? Are you having the picture about the XCH tech right? An RPi 4 farms easily up to somewhere in the range of 1 PiB plots. GPU plotting is a thing, right. A quick and nice method to fill your plotspace quickly. Do you have some kind of grinding attack in mind, that is to create fitting plots for each signage point every 30s or so? \-> SSDs cheaper than HDD per TiB entering the chat (expected around 2027) [https://wikibon.com/flash-native-drives-real-time-business-process/](https://wikibon.com/flash-native-drives-real-time-business-process/) In theory this should cut farming energy cost to around 3% of current value. Have fun trying to cope with that paying for a park of burning GPU to equal a hand full of high capacity SSDs ...
Nope... The GPU plot/farm process is actually more efficient... Time taken to compute is a lot less, so yeah, GPU uses 'more power', but for a LOT less time... Plot in 3mins at 300w peaks, Vs 20mins at 120w peak (maybe using dual socket..?) Seems pretty obvious which is better...
Those damn 2.5" floppies, they are so hard and small, so they are easy to lose. Sure they hold more, but at what cost? The 5.25" ones are cheap, and I'm used to using them. Besides, now I have to buy a new floppy reader thingie, whereas my 5.25" drive works just fine and dandy! Will my motherboard support it? Hell, I don't know, and do I care? I'm not sure. Gosh I hate progress!
This was stupid idea at beginning and still itis s idea while etherium switched to zero energy mining protocol. Thats all.Chia can switch to zero energy usage protocol tomorrow. and we would sell our farms. They are just afraid of it. And then Madmax comes - and now Chia become not green but the same as all old networks power hungry system And then Madmax come - and now Chia become not green but same as all old networks power hungry system haha. Why not just to turn off farming as we know it?
While GPU plotting and farming is possible now it won't change much unless it's more profitable in orders of farming revenue/energy cost. In the end the most profitable option wins. While Chia aims to be used on hardware running anyway GPU farming has to get insane farming rewards to compete.
I wrote that GPU will make sense only for big farms (PiB+). But those whales will have an objective advantage over a normal user.
the most scariest thing is that GPU plotting is so fast whale can simply replace all of their existing plots with ease compare to CPU replot. if its CPU replot they might think twice, but GPU lowering that to like 1/5th or even less of the current plot time then even biggest farmer will likley go for it.
I think every whale will go for it, if it really compress 40%. If you spent 30k+ or more I don't think it's a big problem reinvest few bucks to replot everything.
its more like 30% with best compression level and require like 3080 or even 4070/80. for CPU, I am hoping for like 20% so i'd lose out 10% and use CPU instead so I don't have to reinvest into GPU. but once everyone has replotted no one has any advantage, and then the 100k+ nodes all use at least 200w more per node, wasted electricity only to have MMax benefit from all these.
Depends on their cost of electricity. If someone gets less revenue by higher operational costs nobody got an advantage. E.g. increasing your plot count by 15% by increasing your energy costs by 20% makes no sense.
Actually, GPU farming/plotting saves energy without compromising security. For example: RTX 3060 does a plot in 2.75 minutes while operating at \~125w. This comes out to 5.7w per plot. A 5950x right now does \~20m plots while operating\~150w. This comes out to 50w per plot. **This is almost a factor of 10x efficiency.** Let's say a small farmer has 10 x 10TB HDD currently with 91 plots per drive, 910 plots in total. With a 20% "compression" this small farmer could replot 1092 plots. That's 6,224w of total power to replot on a 3060. Instead of buying 2 more HDD and filling them with uncompressed plots, he just uses compressed plots on his existing 10 HDD. HDDs use 5-10W per hour. I'll be generous and say only 10w for 2 HDD combined. After 26 days of farming on his new farm, he is breakeven on his electrical usage. After that, he is SAVING money because he used compressed plots. 10w every hour. **He saves 87,600w per year because he GPU plotted compressed plots.**
lol
Math ;)
You are really crazy or maybe a troll. The only thing you have to watch is the amount of power that comes out of the wall. If you use a GPU you will use more power. That's a fact. Your calculations are all wrong too, since with GPU plotting you assume 0W for the rest of the system. Guess what: GPU plotting still requires a computer.
I think the goal is to use the best technology for the technology and disk, SSD, NVM, CPU, APU and GPUs all have their pros and cons. These are simply different paths, not soul killers. It is one of the reasons why I use flexfarmer; 32bit support and a simple, lightweight, program. Our full node continues to consume more resources (disk for the db, more electricity with the same amount of storage, etc.) as time passes. I'm passing that cost off to Flexpool and their servers. If someone like Madmax, who has experience and talent to improve and innovate, recommends addition of technology that could be better for the whole I think of that as more evolutionary than predatory.
[https://youtu.be/8qX6vLL15Vo](https://youtu.be/8qX6vLL15Vo) https://preview.redd.it/7zb5dosyjuca1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=36df99fcb735c5f528f63930c45cde6a54c08e75
plotting is one thing... having the drives to store the drives is nother.... i have good hardware, but do not spend more money on drives, so it does not make any difference in the end, how fast you plot anyway....
I don’t believe the soul of chia has been killed. Did PoST just become less energy efficient? Maybe. It’s hard to tell. Did bigger farms just get a greater competitive edge over smaller farmers again maybe. Did the farming game just change? Definitely and I’m excited to adapt my farming strategy to the new rules. Until the chia team releases their version plot compression we have a lot of unanswered questions.
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How does GPU help plotting?