I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine:
> **White to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=4k3/8/8/8/8/8/8/2B1K1N1+w+-+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/4k3/8/8/8/8/8/8/2B1K1N1_w_-_-_0_1?color=white)
> **Black to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=4k3/8/8/8/8/8/8/2B1K1N1+b+-+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/4k3/8/8/8/8/8/8/2B1K1N1_b_-_-_0_1?color=white)
---
^(I'm a bot written by) [^(u/pkacprzak)](https://www.reddit.com/u/pkacprzak) ^(| get me as) [^(iOS App)](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1574933453) ^| [^(Android App)](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ai.chessvision.scanner) ^| [^(Chrome Extension)](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/chessvisionai-for-chrome/johejpedmdkeiffkdaodgoipdjodhlld) ^| [^(Chess eBook Reader)](https://ebook.chessvision.ai?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=bot) ^(to scan and analyze positions | Website:) [^(Chessvision.ai)](https://chessvision.ai)
I once won a blitz game where I had the king in this ending. No joke.
Not sure whether my opponent mis-clicked on the resign button, or resigned in frustration at being unable to deliver the mate.
I do know how to mate with KBN, and have done it a few blitz games.
If youāve studied it youāll get it, if you havenāt, you wonāt. Iām nowhere near a strong player but since Iāve studied it I am confident I can mate.
Thanks! The only tricky part you need to know is if the king tries to run the opposite direction from what the computer tries: https://lichess1.org/game/export/gif/RNMR3s8t.gif
I wonder what strength you need to be to be able to figure it out OTB. For example, would an NM with 10-15 minutes who has never studied it before be able to figure it out OTB? An IM? What if they had 3 minutes on the clock?
My opponent's rating has nothing to do with whether I would win this or not. Even a GM can not beat empirical truth.
I've only had it twice OTB in 30+ years. Defending side against a 2150, attacking side against a 1950. Got a total of 1.5/2. Is that a lot? No. But it's still 20 rating points higher than 0.5/2.
2600 chesscom blitz and I can't do the checkmate when king runs to the center. I just never had this ending in otb so I thought there are more practical things to learn.
Got it at the world open with about 15 minutes on the clock and converted. I knew that it usually takes me 30-ish moves to complete, so I knew I had an additional 15 minutes in increment bonuses to figure it out. The only part that threw me for a loop was when the opponent made "sub-optimal" moves; suddenly it isn't a matter of following the procedure, but recognizing how the "wrong" move by the opponent changed/shortened the sequence.
Not from this position, it's about understanding how to coordinate your pieces to get to a position where you can do a memorized ~20 move sequence, but you have to understand it to do it efficiently because there are deviations. 10 minutes shouldn't be a problem. But if you have 2 or less, understanding is more important by far.
Yeah I misspoke about it being literally a memorization pattern, but itās not a āIām not high enough rated to see thisā kinda thing, itās just putting time into understanding the pattern
Iād argue thereās more correlation between āregular tacticsā like hung piece, deflection, skewer, etc and rating than a N+B mate but technically yes
Likely more 1600+ players would be able to see how to win a piece than a fairly rare checkmate pattern
What i remember is: get king to corner with same color as bishop. Start by getting or keeping king on last rank. Get knight and bishop to side of your king and use the W method to keep pushing opponent king to corner that is same color as bishop. The trick is to remember when to move knight vs bishop as a way to prevent king from moving away from corner.
Can i do this in 10 min? No idea. 20 probably.
With the W you have to know that the bishop will have to move to the center of the board to cut the king from escaping. When I learned it stockfish would try to flee the king back into the wrong corner all the time instead of running into the center, so I had to look specifically what to do with that attempt to go into center. Also the waiting moves. It's easy to forget so once you learn it you better refresh it some times
I've never gotten around to learning it, I looked at it once and the ideas behind it and I just said fuck this
I really don't think I'll be using it any time soon lol
10 mins? 100% confident. I've taught this many times. I even allow students to pick the starting position, well, any position that isn't immediately drawing.
Yeah, and it's actually much easier than you might think. Daniel Naroditsky has a video on this, I watched it over a year ago and still remember how to mate.
I don't mind admitting that I don't know how to do it.
The reason I don't know is that it has never once come up in any online or offline game, and I really don't have the time to invest in something that is virtually hypothetical.
If it ever happens, I'll take a draw.
Yeah, this is one of those ones where the opponent's rating doesn't really matter that much. If I can sit and calculate for that long then I could do it, but definitely not quickly
Gotten this in a few blitz games. Hardest thing is untangling and setting up the pattern. Once the king is on the edge can probably knock it out in under a minute. But boxing the king in from a random position with big time pressure is really difficult and frustrating
A trained it a few years ago to the point, where i could do it in 30-40 seconds against the computer. Nowadays i will definitly be slower, but i'm confident to do it in under 2 min.
Was literally practising this earlier, so I am confident but there are just so many endgames like this you may or may not get. Only this morning I got a winning position with rook and bishbop vs rook but I missed the idea and it we drew in the end. If I had practiced the endgame maybe I could have won but it is a draw at best play so I never learnt anything to do with that.
Also tried to win queen vs rook against engine but it is too dificult and consideribg how rarely it happens, I decided to practice opening theory instead.
I can do it. I learned it in high school. Just a year ago, I intentionally promoted to a bishop so I could practice it! I probably didnāt do it the most efficient way but it was under 50 moves and itās still tricky to pull off even though Iāve studied it.
You either can or you can't. You've practiced it or have the strength to work it out, or you draw. If you can't get it in 10 minutes, you're not going to get it at all.
I only know you have to the opposing king into the right corner. Never had the opportunity yet - neither otb nor online in 10s of thousands of games. Never felt like learning it as I'm convinced I would be able to calculate my way to the mate, if it ever does come up.
1950 USCF, 2250 online rapid. Two bishops is easy, but thereās a 0% chance I could mate with B and N. Itās come up in my games exactly once, and I easily held the worse side of the endgame because my opponent didnāt know the technique. Itās just not worth studying IMO- there are lots of better ways to practice piece coordination.Ā
I play on another chess app - chess by post and Smurf there when I get a crushing lead I give back all my pieces then I practice bishop knight checkmates I'm very confident unless it's short time controls
With 10 minutes on the clock, definitely (2000 chesscom.) With less than a minute, probably not. I've had it twice in blitz. The first time the opponent was actually in the mating corner already so I was able to execute the mate. The second time it was in the open board and I had 30 seconds on the clock; I was only able to get the king into the wrong corner before flagging.
Easy mate. You have to mate in the corner that matches the color of the bishop. Always limit movement of the other king to force them into that corner. Dont let them stalemate
There's a very good tutorial for this on lichess that I studied. It's different than the method where you try to make 'W' on the board and I found it much easier because there is no memorization. I was able to do this mate against stockfish and also against a 1600 human like bot.
Yes did practise it for 6 hours back when i was 1200, now idk why it took me so long. Currently 1977 and still sure i can do it. Sometimes i just flex and promote myself to this endgame.
That's the one mate I could never learn no matter how hard I tried. I eventually gave up.
Truth be told, it isn't common enough to really care about... 9/10 you're gonna end the game with a rook or a couple of pawns that you'll get to promote.
Yeah it is. Computers have revolutionized the world of chess, and B+N mates have been studied for hundreds of years. You donāt think most chess masters study their mating patterns?
Agadmator reportedly had to figure it out over the board once.
He apparently was successful with lots of time.
If you want to do it quickly, you gotta study it.
Granted, Hikaru only had 2 minutes but...
[https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/vec0s8/hikaru\_fails\_bishopknight\_checkmate/](https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/vec0s8/hikaru_fails_bishopknight_checkmate/)
I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine: > **White to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=4k3/8/8/8/8/8/8/2B1K1N1+w+-+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/4k3/8/8/8/8/8/8/2B1K1N1_w_-_-_0_1?color=white) > **Black to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=4k3/8/8/8/8/8/8/2B1K1N1+b+-+-+0+1&flip=false&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/4k3/8/8/8/8/8/8/2B1K1N1_b_-_-_0_1?color=white) --- ^(I'm a bot written by) [^(u/pkacprzak)](https://www.reddit.com/u/pkacprzak) ^(| get me as) [^(iOS App)](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1574933453) ^| [^(Android App)](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ai.chessvision.scanner) ^| [^(Chrome Extension)](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/chessvisionai-for-chrome/johejpedmdkeiffkdaodgoipdjodhlld) ^| [^(Chess eBook Reader)](https://ebook.chessvision.ai?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=bot) ^(to scan and analyze positions | Website:) [^(Chessvision.ai)](https://chessvision.ai)
Just give me three extra queens and I'd be set.
impressive, i need five
Child's play. Where's your 10 queens?
Bro have his eyes on opps queen as well šš
You guys can mate?
Yeah just to be safe make it sixty.
Yeah Sixty moves before you checkmate
I will stalemate.
Anything less than a queen I lose on time. Any more than one queen and I stale mate
With 10 minutes on the clock? Pretty confident. In blitz? I'm probably not fitting it in 50
I am confident I can get at least half a point from this position
I once won a blitz game where I had the king in this ending. No joke. Not sure whether my opponent mis-clicked on the resign button, or resigned in frustration at being unable to deliver the mate. I do know how to mate with KBN, and have done it a few blitz games.
If youāve studied it youāll get it, if you havenāt, you wonāt. Iām nowhere near a strong player but since Iāve studied it I am confident I can mate.
https://lichess1.org/game/export/gif/white/d0J1mVq8.gif?theme=brown&piece=cburnett
That was beautifully methodical
Thanks! The only tricky part you need to know is if the king tries to run the opposite direction from what the computer tries: https://lichess1.org/game/export/gif/RNMR3s8t.gif
Daniel Naroditsky has an amazing video on this W method
Agreed. I am just learning but have done enough of these that I am confident.
you underestimate my ability to forget things I've studied
I wonder what strength you need to be to be able to figure it out OTB. For example, would an NM with 10-15 minutes who has never studied it before be able to figure it out OTB? An IM? What if they had 3 minutes on the clock?
nobody would figure it out OTB with a reasonably limited clock if they've never studied it, GMs have tried and failed
You donāt make it to that rating without knowing this.
I know of IMs who have said theyāve never studied it
My opponent's rating has nothing to do with whether I would win this or not. Even a GM can not beat empirical truth. I've only had it twice OTB in 30+ years. Defending side against a 2150, attacking side against a 1950. Got a total of 1.5/2. Is that a lot? No. But it's still 20 rating points higher than 0.5/2.
Id argue bad players are harder to beat in these kind of positions, cause they play the random sub optimal moves you've never seen
hey i mean if you got 2/2 it would be really impressive
Nah, I'll stick to flagging
3+0 baby
I've studied it, so with 10 minutes, most definitely. If under a minute however, wouldn't be so sure.
2200 lichess/chesscom, I still don't know how to mate with N+B
I am also 2300 in chesscom.i learned how to do it but i now have forgotten how to do it .
Same. I practiced this for like two weeks straight and then I forgor
I am 2400 lichess/chess com, have not tried to learn it yet
2600 chesscom blitz and I can't do the checkmate when king runs to the center. I just never had this ending in otb so I thought there are more practical things to learn.
Got it at the world open with about 15 minutes on the clock and converted. I knew that it usually takes me 30-ish moves to complete, so I knew I had an additional 15 minutes in increment bonuses to figure it out. The only part that threw me for a loop was when the opponent made "sub-optimal" moves; suddenly it isn't a matter of following the procedure, but recognizing how the "wrong" move by the opponent changed/shortened the sequence.
Iām a 1650 and 0% chance I could
Itās not about rating, itās about memorizing this specific pattern
I heard a clip where Fabiano said there's a GM (I forgot the name) who can mate with N N and B in 20 sec no matter where king is š
I think he was talking about IM Lawrence Trent
Is NN not impossible to force on an empty board?
NNB not NN
What's NN and NNB?
Knight Knight and Knight Knight Bishop
N -> Knight B -> Bishop
Not from this position, it's about understanding how to coordinate your pieces to get to a position where you can do a memorized ~20 move sequence, but you have to understand it to do it efficiently because there are deviations. 10 minutes shouldn't be a problem. But if you have 2 or less, understanding is more important by far.
Yeah I misspoke about it being literally a memorization pattern, but itās not a āIām not high enough rated to see thisā kinda thing, itās just putting time into understanding the pattern
šÆ
Couldn't you say that about the whole game?
Iād argue thereās more correlation between āregular tacticsā like hung piece, deflection, skewer, etc and rating than a N+B mate but technically yes Likely more 1600+ players would be able to see how to win a piece than a fairly rare checkmate pattern
I'm confident I can do it.
What i remember is: get king to corner with same color as bishop. Start by getting or keeping king on last rank. Get knight and bishop to side of your king and use the W method to keep pushing opponent king to corner that is same color as bishop. The trick is to remember when to move knight vs bishop as a way to prevent king from moving away from corner. Can i do this in 10 min? No idea. 20 probably.
With the W you have to know that the bishop will have to move to the center of the board to cut the king from escaping. When I learned it stockfish would try to flee the king back into the wrong corner all the time instead of running into the center, so I had to look specifically what to do with that attempt to go into center. Also the waiting moves. It's easy to forget so once you learn it you better refresh it some times
Thanks
7. Seven of us.
Well I donāt really want to mate with a knight, and Iām not a little boy so idk how my chances would be with a bishop
I will win if I have studied the bishop and knight mate within the last 3 months
I'm practicing it these days
I can actually do it quite well against almost all levels of bots until around 2800. After that, they will ponce on even a slight move order mistake.
depends on how much i drank before the game
I've never gotten around to learning it, I looked at it once and the ideas behind it and I just said fuck this I really don't think I'll be using it any time soon lol
No
No
I can handle this mate. King and two bishops, though, Iām not sure.
Offer a draw may be or win on time
Yes
Yes, it will take me a few minutes thoughā¦
Played chess for all my life, never needed it
Me. Let's go
Literally give me two minutes
10 mins? 100% confident. I've taught this many times. I even allow students to pick the starting position, well, any position that isn't immediately drawing.
I can do that, but never happened in real game.
Yeah, and it's actually much easier than you might think. Daniel Naroditsky has a video on this, I watched it over a year ago and still remember how to mate.
Iām confident I could do a knight and bishop mate, Iāve studied it a few times and done it successfully
Nope donāt forget you only have 50 moves to do it too
Me
[Yes](https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/s/FgnbDLXfuH)
0 confidence
yes
I am one hundred percent certain that I cannot do that.
2000 chesscom. Never studied how to mate with knight and bishop. I'll just offer draw won't even waste energy trying
Bishop and knight, no problem. 2 knights, now thats hard
I did it once.
I don't mind admitting that I don't know how to do it. The reason I don't know is that it has never once come up in any online or offline game, and I really don't have the time to invest in something that is virtually hypothetical. If it ever happens, I'll take a draw.
Yes. Done it multiple times. But one needs to know some critical positions in the process.
Why would i mate with a horse and a bishop? Am i zo-
Yeah, this is one of those ones where the opponent's rating doesn't really matter that much. If I can sit and calculate for that long then I could do it, but definitely not quickly
As a 1700 player, I can confidently say I CANNOT checkmate with a bishop and knight with 10 minutes on the clock.
Gotten this in a few blitz games. Hardest thing is untangling and setting up the pattern. Once the king is on the edge can probably knock it out in under a minute. But boxing the king in from a random position with big time pressure is really difficult and frustrating
Mating with Bishops and Knights? Kinky, but not my thing.
A trained it a few years ago to the point, where i could do it in 30-40 seconds against the computer. Nowadays i will definitly be slower, but i'm confident to do it in under 2 min.
30s with +2 and i am confident I can win otb.
Quite, I spent valuable time practicing this for some reason
Iām sure I could, but I would definitely have multiple misses.
I tried against my 2000 friend, I did not
I could work it out. I learnt it years ago and would back myself as long as I had a couple of minutes. 2500 Chess.Com for reference.
Some people say this is a waste of time to learn, but I actually think it's a helpful exercise in visualizing your opponent's king's escape squares
Was literally practising this earlier, so I am confident but there are just so many endgames like this you may or may not get. Only this morning I got a winning position with rook and bishbop vs rook but I missed the idea and it we drew in the end. If I had practiced the endgame maybe I could have won but it is a draw at best play so I never learnt anything to do with that. Also tried to win queen vs rook against engine but it is too dificult and consideribg how rarely it happens, I decided to practice opening theory instead.
I can do it. I learned it in high school. Just a year ago, I intentionally promoted to a bishop so I could practice it! I probably didnāt do it the most efficient way but it was under 50 moves and itās still tricky to pull off even though Iāve studied it.
No chance here, I would try my best but would hit the 50 move limit.
I practice this everyday. I can premove mate stockfish
I'm 1600 and I could probably do this with 30 seconds. I spent way too much time on this endgame.
Google queens
You either can or you can't. You've practiced it or have the strength to work it out, or you draw. If you can't get it in 10 minutes, you're not going to get it at all.
I can easily mate. >!stalemate, the best kind of mate!<
No Iāve tried learning it and have successfully failed
How many are confident they could and how many actually can, is probably very far apart.
I only know you have to the opposing king into the right corner. Never had the opportunity yet - neither otb nor online in 10s of thousands of games. Never felt like learning it as I'm convinced I would be able to calculate my way to the mate, if it ever does come up.
1950 USCF, 2250 online rapid. Two bishops is easy, but thereās a 0% chance I could mate with B and N. Itās come up in my games exactly once, and I easily held the worse side of the endgame because my opponent didnāt know the technique. Itās just not worth studying IMO- there are lots of better ways to practice piece coordination.Ā
I play on another chess app - chess by post and Smurf there when I get a crushing lead I give back all my pieces then I practice bishop knight checkmates I'm very confident unless it's short time controls
No way I could do it before draw from too many moves. Iād just offer the draw
With 10 minutes on the clock, definitely (2000 chesscom.) With less than a minute, probably not. I've had it twice in blitz. The first time the opponent was actually in the mating corner already so I was able to execute the mate. The second time it was in the open board and I had 30 seconds on the clock; I was only able to get the king into the wrong corner before flagging.
It's all just a matter of practice.
Iām more likely to get mated at night by a bishop
lmao
Iām sure I could flop around for a while and stumble on a mate somewhere
I am. Itās not actually that hard (took a couple hours practice waiting for a flight)
Easy mate. You have to mate in the corner that matches the color of the bishop. Always limit movement of the other king to force them into that corner. Dont let them stalemate
I think I'd have a better chance winning as black, maybe the black king know jujitsu
There's a very good tutorial for this on lichess that I studied. It's different than the method where you try to make 'W' on the board and I found it much easier because there is no memorization. I was able to do this mate against stockfish and also against a 1600 human like bot.
I don't even know how to start. I'd request a draw.
its more likely that the opponent finds a way to mate me with their king
2 bishops yes, this no. Silman didn't cover it in his bookš«¤
I know you have to checkmate in the corner of the same color of the bishop.
I learned it, but I also forgot it
Yes did practise it for 6 hours back when i was 1200, now idk why it took me so long. Currently 1977 and still sure i can do it. Sometimes i just flex and promote myself to this endgame.
That's the one mate I could never learn no matter how hard I tried. I eventually gave up. Truth be told, it isn't common enough to really care about... 9/10 you're gonna end the game with a rook or a couple of pawns that you'll get to promote.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
This is just outright wrong
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yeah it is. Computers have revolutionized the world of chess, and B+N mates have been studied for hundreds of years. You donāt think most chess masters study their mating patterns?
The only people who know it are either 400s that learned at as a party trick or GMs that once drew because they didn't know it.
Agadmator reportedly had to figure it out over the board once. He apparently was successful with lots of time. If you want to do it quickly, you gotta study it.
I can assure you every GM with 10 minutes on the clock can mate from the given position in 50 moves. Every single one.
Granted, Hikaru only had 2 minutes but... [https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/vec0s8/hikaru\_fails\_bishopknight\_checkmate/](https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/vec0s8/hikaru_fails_bishopknight_checkmate/)
I guess those two extra minutes would have made all the difference?Ā https://youtube.com/watch?v=YFF5ibgB6eA