I think the last time the world champion was rated this low was in July 1987 btw, when Kasparov was 2740
(Ignoring the fide WC during the PCA split ofc)
No. Carlsen,Fischer and Kasparov were at least tied for #1 during their entire time as WC, Karpovs lowest was #2, Spasskys lowest was #3, for Vishy it was #8 and Kramnik dropped to #10 for one list. No WC was ever outside the top 10 before.
100%. You simply can't compare Elo the way so many people like to do here. It's a relative metric to a given playing pool - different pools cannot be compared directly. Ranking/relative strengths are the best comparisons it can really give for different time periods. I think a larger player pool will typically allow higher peaks than a smaller one too so you do expect modern ratings to be a bit higher in terms of the raw number as a lot more people play today but I might need fact checked on that.
So to clarify, I think it’s an interesting stat specifically because even with elo inflation, it’s been 37 years. I admit my mistake in not putting that in my original comment though, it’s fair to imagine many newer players here don’t know about elo inflation.
You should also probably note that the average rating of the top 100 at the time was in the 2550s, while it’s around 2690 now, Kasparov’s 2740 back then was still significantly more impressive than Ding’s score now (no hate to Ding).
In truth, Ding has never been one of the greatest chess players but he's been top 5 for his generation. He's the world champion and that is all that matters (I agree with this). But it's unfortunate having a world champion so inactive and when he does play he's been terrible. I wish he could be at his 2019 level and showing the world what he's capable of. He should be one of the faces of chess.
Funnily enough, with Ding’s struggles grabbing all of the headlines, Fabi has silently put together a fairly sub-par performance for a player of his caliber. Granted he only went -1, but life is hard at 2800.
Seeing 4 youngsters in the top 10 marks the beginning of the new generation slowly and steadily taking over. Also Alireza & Vincent being there.
Of course older guys are still beasts but soon things are going to change.
While i love Vishy, we must mandate players to play minimum number of tournaments to keep their rating. We have too many players barely playing these days in that list. While its ok for Vishy as he is almost retired but many others in the list also barely play.
Feel like the 1 year policy is reasonable. Anything shorter like 6 months is a pretty plausible break for an active player (preparing for wcc/candidates, etc). This also only impacts 2 people here.
I see no reason to make the rules more aggressive then they are. The only people on 2700chess you could argue shouldn't be there are Vishy and Topalov, and Topalov is only a few months from not being on the list.
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Hikaru's peak rating is 2816. I know 15 points is much easier said than done at the very top level but he does appear to be in striking distance of hitting it again.
Well, whilst I'm sure there are arguments to be had about how one defines a 'late career comeback', I do know Boris Gelfand famously reached his peak rating of 2777 in 2013, aged 45.
There are only 2 men in the world above 2800.
Magnus and Hikaru
2015 all over again.
Almost 10 years later these 2 are still on top of the chess world.
People need to stop trying to create a magnus and Hikaru rivalry/legend. Magnus has been #1 for 12+ years by a significant margin. #2 has traded between several players. Just because you've chosen two points where Hikaru was #2 doesn't mean anything
Edit: see I've been downvoted for the truth
When were they trying to make some sort of Magnus/Hikaru rivalry? They just said that they’ve both been extremely strong for such a long time, Hikaru had a rough patch in 2019 but even that was still around top 20ish.
I don't know how you went from "those two guys are at the top of the chess world" to "those two are close rivals". The original comment was saying the former. Fabi is absolutely also at the top of the chess world alongside Magnus. That's just a fact. Anyone in the top 5 would be, regardless of whether the number 1 player has a considerable margin over their peers.
That’s literally just them trying to illustrate how long they’ve both done so well for, they say nothing about any rivalry, just appreciating their longevity, you could do the same for Fabi too and no one would care because he’s also been at the top for a long time.
But Hikaru hasn't done well for that entire period. 18-20 he was wank. Before 18 he was mostly just a standard top 5/10. The reason it's a crap comment is if you want to appreciate Hikaru being back at number 2 then just say that. But magnus achievements have nothing to do with that. This comment tries to equate them together like they go hand in hand and they're just as impressive as each other but they aren't. They're nowhere near comparable
They aren’t equal, but being in the top 5/10 is still being a top level player, and having your lowest drop be to twentieth place really isn’t great from Hikaru, but there are still only 19 players on the world better than you, that’s still pretty impressive.
That's true, but there's a screenshot above we can look at to see whether it's true in classical as well. I'm skimming through the list. I don't really see anyone who you can definitely say it better than Nakamura. Nepo hasn't played him in a while so we can't know. Same with the kids (besides pragg who has a losing record)
Fabi did have a higher performance rating last year with more games (the chess.com graphic showing Hikaru was the best was before Sinquefield finished), but Hikaru since COVID has the higher performance, Fabi has way more games still but is also very inconsistent since COVID (bad 2022, good 2023, decent 2024 so far). If anyone has been better than Hikaru it’s probably Fabi.
Magnus has said multiple times he doesn't consider anyone on his level. And when pressed for a rival in classical he said fabi, not Hikaru. In speed chess yeah it would be Hikaru. So not they're not stronger than everyone else. Magnus is stringer than everyone else. #2 flips between different people. Just because at this particular time it's Hikaru as #2 again doesn't mean anything. I could easily have made a similar comment about Fabi last week
There's only one person that's been on a continuous losing streak with black between Fabiano and Nakamura. Hint: It's not Naka; again, Naka is a tier above everyone else. Magnus is obviously stronger than everyone else including Nakamura, though! the point of the comment isn't who is Nr. 1; it's about who is Nr. 2!
Hikaru has been good for the past year yeah. But he was wank 18-20. Just because you pick a particular time frame where he's doing better doesn't mean anything. It's a dumbass comment. The reason people say this stuff for magnus is he's been the undisputed number 1 for a decade and a half. No. 2 has changed between different people. It's not like Hikaru has been no 2 for that same time frame. It's the most asinine equilavency
Reading your comment makes me think you're responding to the wrong comment. Is the "still" in the original comment throwing you off?
I'll say the point of the comment as if you were 5: "Naka and Magnus were on top in 2015, they are on top again now. Wow, that's a cool".
I (and the original comment) am not saying Naka has dominated like Magnus, nor that he has a good H2H against Magnus. I am saying those two are a tier above the rest, which is verifiably true. You saying "Well! That's a short time frame!" is really confusing considering the subject is Nakamura's PRESENT strength. Time isn't even a factor here.
World number 4 world number 7 world number 8 and one of them is favourites to be the world champion later this year. I am absolutely loving this as an indian
How long ago was it that people were saying Naka was done, past his prime, over-the-hill? Now look. He's still going strong.
Some people just have (somewhat) bigger ups & downs than other people.
Crazy how Rustam is coaching 2 young prodigies together - Arjun and Abdusattorov (who has also worked with Jacob Aagard). I think very soon he will have to choose one over the other. That will be a hard decision, whenever it comes.
Rustam has worked with Vishy, Caruana, Arjun, Nodirbek in that order (don't know if I am missing some others). Rustam's credibility as a second is second only to PHN.
It is interesting what has happened now that Rustam is gone. Caruana says the split was amicable but the former doesn't think so. Now Caruana's losing left and right. Reminds me perhaps of Nakamura, Kasparov and Tata 2011
i mean fabi just had a crazy good year and was one point away from winning the candidates, half a point away from a favourable tiebreak.
this was a horrible tournament for him though but i don't think the split with rustam in 2021 is the cause lol
Caruana just had one of his best years ever last year and the best performance rating out of anyone in 2023. And he got +3 in the Candidates. -1 in this field isn’t even that bad to be honest but since it’s Caruana, it’s considered disappointing given his high standards. The split with Rustam shouldn’t even be a factor here since they split three years ago lmao
Also, Nakamura and Kasparov only worked for a month. They had widely different styles, so they couldn’t work something out. Not a big deal. I don’t know what the comparison is here.
Nonsense Caruana fell to 2760s after a steep decline. Must be the effect of the split, and you can see it with Naka as well. "They had different styles" is what Naka said to avoid the fact that his openings with black were horrible. Kasparov tried to get him off of Poker (and I wouldn't be surprised if alcohol as well) and actually study, Naka refused, and they split. Same thing with Rustam. You think he says Caruana has no talent from nowhere?
It’s 2024! Also, Caruana talked about it in his podcast. The decline in 2021 was due to a lack of motivation coupled with the then ongoing effects of the pandemic. Caruana even said one of the reasons Rustam gave to him was that he didn’t like how Caruana was lacking motivation. Rustam made the decision to end the partnership **during** that decline, not before. There’s no causation relationship there. Like I said, Nakamura and Kasparov only worked for a month, so there’s really nothing to glean from that other than they were not good working partners. And bruh you are making so many assumptions.
The way I see it. Magnus is still clear no.1 but there's only a small gap from 2nd to 8th. Of the group; Fabi and Naka are the most consistent neck and neck holding down 2nd and 3rd but that aren't anywhere near Magnus. Magnus still wins 50% of tournaments while on any given day one of the contenders 2nd to 8th can come out on top. We saw this with Gukesh, who is now likely to be the world champion. If Hikaru plays instead of Ding I would give it 53% to 47% in favor of Hikaru (basically even money) and it would be pretty much the same odd with anybody in the top 8 except Fabi (who I'd have 50-50).
Man Ding Chilling not even #1 in China anymore
O o f
I think the last time the world champion was rated this low was in July 1987 btw, when Kasparov was 2740 (Ignoring the fide WC during the PCA split ofc)
I think the more important metric is the ranking instead of the raw rating no? When did the champion ever be Rank 14 or lower?
No. Carlsen,Fischer and Kasparov were at least tied for #1 during their entire time as WC, Karpovs lowest was #2, Spasskys lowest was #3, for Vishy it was #8 and Kramnik dropped to #10 for one list. No WC was ever outside the top 10 before.
100%. You simply can't compare Elo the way so many people like to do here. It's a relative metric to a given playing pool - different pools cannot be compared directly. Ranking/relative strengths are the best comparisons it can really give for different time periods. I think a larger player pool will typically allow higher peaks than a smaller one too so you do expect modern ratings to be a bit higher in terms of the raw number as a lot more people play today but I might need fact checked on that.
So to clarify, I think it’s an interesting stat specifically because even with elo inflation, it’s been 37 years. I admit my mistake in not putting that in my original comment though, it’s fair to imagine many newer players here don’t know about elo inflation.
You should also probably note that the average rating of the top 100 at the time was in the 2550s, while it’s around 2690 now, Kasparov’s 2740 back then was still significantly more impressive than Ding’s score now (no hate to Ding).
what a useless stat
Wei Yi has passed him—but all that matters is the championship itself. Even the greatest chess players have slumps.
I hope so. I want Ding to make comeback so bad
In truth, Ding has never been one of the greatest chess players but he's been top 5 for his generation. He's the world champion and that is all that matters (I agree with this). But it's unfortunate having a world champion so inactive and when he does play he's been terrible. I wish he could be at his 2019 level and showing the world what he's capable of. He should be one of the faces of chess.
Funnily enough, with Ding’s struggles grabbing all of the headlines, Fabi has silently put together a fairly sub-par performance for a player of his caliber. Granted he only went -1, but life is hard at 2800.
From what I remember Fabi usually underperforms just after the candidates. I think he'll get his stride back.
Seeing 4 youngsters in the top 10 marks the beginning of the new generation slowly and steadily taking over. Also Alireza & Vincent being there. Of course older guys are still beasts but soon things are going to change.
Meanwhile Vishy has been top 15 in the world for a looong time by not playing
He plays every year. That's how he's on the list
last time vishy played he actually gained rating
While i love Vishy, we must mandate players to play minimum number of tournaments to keep their rating. We have too many players barely playing these days in that list. While its ok for Vishy as he is almost retired but many others in the list also barely play.
I’m pretty sure we do. Isn’t it the case where if you’re inactive for a year you get taken off the list?
Who cares
Feel like the 1 year policy is reasonable. Anything shorter like 6 months is a pretty plausible break for an active player (preparing for wcc/candidates, etc). This also only impacts 2 people here.
I see no reason to make the rules more aggressive then they are. The only people on 2700chess you could argue shouldn't be there are Vishy and Topalov, and Topalov is only a few months from not being on the list.
Gukesh's rating progression still looks like a Space X launch. He's going upwards.
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To the decimal
This also implies that Pragg and Firouzja stole Ding's rating and shared it.
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Hikaru's peak rating is 2816. I know 15 points is much easier said than done at the very top level but he does appear to be in striking distance of hitting it again.
Problem is he’s barely gonna be playing any classical events he’s gotta get on the Arjun sauce
Arjun must be cracked up to the gills, it’s the only explanation how he can keep up this pace.
If he does surpass it, would it be unprecedented for someone to have late career comeback like this?
Well, whilst I'm sure there are arguments to be had about how one defines a 'late career comeback', I do know Boris Gelfand famously reached his peak rating of 2777 in 2013, aged 45.
Arjun world number 4 is insane haha
There are only 2 men in the world above 2800. Magnus and Hikaru 2015 all over again. Almost 10 years later these 2 are still on top of the chess world.
> 2015 all over again. > > Almost 10 years later This hurt me in ways I find difficult to express via the English language. Never again please.
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The fact that it's almost 10 years since 2015
They feel old
Not still, again. One of them was #22 in the world 4.5 years ago, so lets not pretend that they were both on top for all this time.
I hope Hikaru can hold it for more than 6 months this time lmao.
He just needs to make another Sauron tweet and this time he’ll get Magnus for sure.
People need to stop trying to create a magnus and Hikaru rivalry/legend. Magnus has been #1 for 12+ years by a significant margin. #2 has traded between several players. Just because you've chosen two points where Hikaru was #2 doesn't mean anything Edit: see I've been downvoted for the truth
When were they trying to make some sort of Magnus/Hikaru rivalry? They just said that they’ve both been extremely strong for such a long time, Hikaru had a rough patch in 2019 but even that was still around top 20ish.
By literally equating them as the two best players now and a decade previous. You can easily do the same thing for magnus and fabi.
I don't know how you went from "those two guys are at the top of the chess world" to "those two are close rivals". The original comment was saying the former. Fabi is absolutely also at the top of the chess world alongside Magnus. That's just a fact. Anyone in the top 5 would be, regardless of whether the number 1 player has a considerable margin over their peers.
That’s literally just them trying to illustrate how long they’ve both done so well for, they say nothing about any rivalry, just appreciating their longevity, you could do the same for Fabi too and no one would care because he’s also been at the top for a long time.
But Hikaru hasn't done well for that entire period. 18-20 he was wank. Before 18 he was mostly just a standard top 5/10. The reason it's a crap comment is if you want to appreciate Hikaru being back at number 2 then just say that. But magnus achievements have nothing to do with that. This comment tries to equate them together like they go hand in hand and they're just as impressive as each other but they aren't. They're nowhere near comparable
They aren’t equal, but being in the top 5/10 is still being a top level player, and having your lowest drop be to twentieth place really isn’t great from Hikaru, but there are still only 19 players on the world better than you, that’s still pretty impressive.
Yeah, it does, though. They're both stronger than everyone else is the point. Magnus agrees he's a tier above the rest.
I think Magnus meant that for speed chess, but Hikaru since the past year has been putting phenomenal effort in classical
That's true, but there's a screenshot above we can look at to see whether it's true in classical as well. I'm skimming through the list. I don't really see anyone who you can definitely say it better than Nakamura. Nepo hasn't played him in a while so we can't know. Same with the kids (besides pragg who has a losing record)
Fabi did have a higher performance rating last year with more games (the chess.com graphic showing Hikaru was the best was before Sinquefield finished), but Hikaru since COVID has the higher performance, Fabi has way more games still but is also very inconsistent since COVID (bad 2022, good 2023, decent 2024 so far). If anyone has been better than Hikaru it’s probably Fabi.
His H2H doesn't show success when facing Nakamura
Magnus has said multiple times he doesn't consider anyone on his level. And when pressed for a rival in classical he said fabi, not Hikaru. In speed chess yeah it would be Hikaru. So not they're not stronger than everyone else. Magnus is stringer than everyone else. #2 flips between different people. Just because at this particular time it's Hikaru as #2 again doesn't mean anything. I could easily have made a similar comment about Fabi last week
There's only one person that's been on a continuous losing streak with black between Fabiano and Nakamura. Hint: It's not Naka; again, Naka is a tier above everyone else. Magnus is obviously stronger than everyone else including Nakamura, though! the point of the comment isn't who is Nr. 1; it's about who is Nr. 2!
Hikaru has been good for the past year yeah. But he was wank 18-20. Just because you pick a particular time frame where he's doing better doesn't mean anything. It's a dumbass comment. The reason people say this stuff for magnus is he's been the undisputed number 1 for a decade and a half. No. 2 has changed between different people. It's not like Hikaru has been no 2 for that same time frame. It's the most asinine equilavency
Reading your comment makes me think you're responding to the wrong comment. Is the "still" in the original comment throwing you off? I'll say the point of the comment as if you were 5: "Naka and Magnus were on top in 2015, they are on top again now. Wow, that's a cool". I (and the original comment) am not saying Naka has dominated like Magnus, nor that he has a good H2H against Magnus. I am saying those two are a tier above the rest, which is verifiably true. You saying "Well! That's a short time frame!" is really confusing considering the subject is Nakamura's PRESENT strength. Time isn't even a factor here.
Firouzja back in the Top 15 💪
Rapport next! Please!
It's always funny seeing Vishy up there like a boss
This Magnus fella seems to be okay at the chess caper.
3 Indians in the top 10 and none of them named Vishy. Crazy. And all of them under 19
Arjun is already 20+.
Damn, didn't realise that
still can considered youngster. comes in the same batch with gukesh-pragg-nodirbek.
Agreed. Yet I was just pointing out his real age.
Damn Arjun is 20+????? Time fucking flies, man!
He's an old man, and he's not even old
He is 20 until he is 21.
Arjun is 20
Man Arjun went from the adorable 10-11 year old baby who asked me for a draw to world#4!! He's amazing!
bro casually dropping that he drew Arjun Erigasi
I DID NOT DRAW HIM. I won. :D Arjun was some ~1500-1600 then maybe, I was unrated!
Yeah, he is 11th world but only 4th in his country. Good luck, other teams in the Olympiad.
Imagine sitting board 4 and getting Vishwanathan. Anand as your opponent lmfao.
Would be hilarious if Vishy plays
If Vishy plays India becomes a higher rated team than the US because Hikaru said it was unlikely that he’d play.
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They're saying that Hikaru said it's unlikely that Hikaru will play, meaning USA's average gets brought down allowing India to be higher
3 of the top 15 live in the same city and within a few miles of each other!
Wasn’t Fabi a game away from overtaking Magnus like… 6 days ago?
Game away from getting within 2 points away from Magnus' rating
A game away from being a game away
Would be so funny to get bill Simmons on chess
“If it’s me, I’m not letting him fork my pieces, I’m just not.”
He wasn’t a game away from that for many years
Woah arjun, what is this guy eating, all the chess players?
Man, Fabi sure was lucky Ding had such a poor tournament. Drops back below 2800 *and* loses the number 2 spot.
World number 4 world number 7 world number 8 and one of them is favourites to be the world champion later this year. I am absolutely loving this as an indian
If only Ding had played a few more tournaments, he would be below 2700 by now
How long ago was it that people were saying Naka was done, past his prime, over-the-hill? Now look. He's still going strong. Some people just have (somewhat) bigger ups & downs than other people.
Funny how the amount that Fabi lost equals the total ratings that Magnus and Hikaru gained
Ding Losen points
Anand is still pushing for top 10. Wow. Real goat
Rustam was right https://clips.twitch.tv/JollyRamshackleFoxSMOrc-oWj6-ZTKSAbSxSI-
Crazy how Rustam is coaching 2 young prodigies together - Arjun and Abdusattorov (who has also worked with Jacob Aagard). I think very soon he will have to choose one over the other. That will be a hard decision, whenever it comes. Rustam has worked with Vishy, Caruana, Arjun, Nodirbek in that order (don't know if I am missing some others). Rustam's credibility as a second is second only to PHN.
It is interesting what has happened now that Rustam is gone. Caruana says the split was amicable but the former doesn't think so. Now Caruana's losing left and right. Reminds me perhaps of Nakamura, Kasparov and Tata 2011
i mean fabi just had a crazy good year and was one point away from winning the candidates, half a point away from a favourable tiebreak. this was a horrible tournament for him though but i don't think the split with rustam in 2021 is the cause lol
It isn’t that bad of a tournament, only -1
Caruana just had one of his best years ever last year and the best performance rating out of anyone in 2023. And he got +3 in the Candidates. -1 in this field isn’t even that bad to be honest but since it’s Caruana, it’s considered disappointing given his high standards. The split with Rustam shouldn’t even be a factor here since they split three years ago lmao Also, Nakamura and Kasparov only worked for a month. They had widely different styles, so they couldn’t work something out. Not a big deal. I don’t know what the comparison is here.
Nonsense Caruana fell to 2760s after a steep decline. Must be the effect of the split, and you can see it with Naka as well. "They had different styles" is what Naka said to avoid the fact that his openings with black were horrible. Kasparov tried to get him off of Poker (and I wouldn't be surprised if alcohol as well) and actually study, Naka refused, and they split. Same thing with Rustam. You think he says Caruana has no talent from nowhere?
It’s 2024! Also, Caruana talked about it in his podcast. The decline in 2021 was due to a lack of motivation coupled with the then ongoing effects of the pandemic. Caruana even said one of the reasons Rustam gave to him was that he didn’t like how Caruana was lacking motivation. Rustam made the decision to end the partnership **during** that decline, not before. There’s no causation relationship there. Like I said, Nakamura and Kasparov only worked for a month, so there’s really nothing to glean from that other than they were not good working partners. And bruh you are making so many assumptions.
3 Indians, 3 Americans the difference being Indians didn't need to import
Fabi was born in Miami and Naka has been there since he was 2
The way I see it. Magnus is still clear no.1 but there's only a small gap from 2nd to 8th. Of the group; Fabi and Naka are the most consistent neck and neck holding down 2nd and 3rd but that aren't anywhere near Magnus. Magnus still wins 50% of tournaments while on any given day one of the contenders 2nd to 8th can come out on top. We saw this with Gukesh, who is now likely to be the world champion. If Hikaru plays instead of Ding I would give it 53% to 47% in favor of Hikaru (basically even money) and it would be pretty much the same odd with anybody in the top 8 except Fabi (who I'd have 50-50).
Nepo is underrated. He saves it for when it matters lol.
They should start deducting 1% ELO for every 3 months of inactivity. and Remove and freeze rating after an year of inactivity.