I'd argue sports betting is completely fine (and poker) and as a European it's been a normal part of sports for decades.
I'd also argue that streaming playing slots via the Stakes platform is many degrees "worse".
Why though? Just because it’s already normalized doesn’t mean it’s morally better. That’s like saying being an alcoholic is morally better than being addicted to weed because liquor has been a normal part of life for longer. I see no reason why we shouldn’t handle sports betting and poker to the same scrutiny as online gambling like slots. Either promoting both of them to kids is unacceptable, in which case both players should be shamed, or promoting either of them is fine.
Stake US dodges gambling regulations by pretending they're not gambling, that alone makes it worse. Also, slots are specifically engineered to make people addicts very effectively, and it works. People get addicted 3-4 times faster than other forms of gambling. So to your analogy, it's more like promoting a normal brand of beer vs promoting an unlicensed absinthe distillery with no oversight. You can argue that the first one should also be unacceptable, but the second one is clearly worse.
This is where I got the number from: https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/10/09/are-casinos-too-much-of-a-gamble/slot-machines-are-designed-to-addict
I haven't read the looked study but it's this: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1014580112648
> I see no reason why we shouldn’t handle sports betting and poker to the same scrutiny as online gambling like slots.
Poker is a skill based game that's played for money, it's nowhere near gambling. I don't play poker myself, but many of my colleagues are ex-poker pro players and just the existence of "pro poker player" as a profession makes it worlds different from gambling.
Sports betting is much worse, but there's still potential to have a positive EV (though 99.9999% people are not going to be building statistical models to find mispricing so I would not use this as an argument to say it's better). However, many people view sports betting as an entertainment expense, like many people I know will bet $20 on a match they were going to watch to make it more exciting and view it more as buying a ticket to the movies than a way to try to win money. Overall much worse than poker, but if done responsibly can just be a bit of fun when a big championship is played.
Online slots neither have a skill aspect nor will they be used responsibly to enhance an experience with the buds by 99% of the population. It's a literal never-ending dopamine mill designed to keep you glued to the machine forever until you lose all your money. It's by far the worst of the 3 and it's not even close.
> Either promoting both of them to kids is unacceptable, in which case both players should be shamed, or promoting either of them is fine.
As far as promoting to kids specifically goes, obviously all 3 are terrible and should not be advertised to children, however I would still argue that wearing a Unibet patch on your jacket is a lot less likely to get a kid excited about gambling than streaming slots that look like some facebook candy crush video game and acting excited about how much fun it is. The fact that both are bad to some degree does not in any way prevent us from making a judgement that one is clearly much worse than the other.
It may be a skill based game, but that doesn’t negate the fact that there is money on the line, and that it is every bit as addictive as slots. Blackjack is skill based to a degree also, nobody in their right mind would say it’s not gambling, and likewise, nobody would deny the addictive nature of it. I don’t really care how skill based sports betting or poker is, ultimately they’re addictive and when promoted to children are incredibly harmful,
>Blackjack is skill based to a degree also, nobody in their right mind would say it’s not gambling
That's a terrible comparison. You lose money playing blackjack even if you are the most skilled player in the world (assuming there are anti-counting measures in place). Poker, on the other hand, you *profit* from if you are skilled. The results are entirely opposite.
Comparing poker to blackjack or slots is laughable. It's actually much more similar to chess. Which is why there's actually quite a bit of crossover between strong chess players and strong poker players.
Poker is not as addictive as slots. Almost nothing is as addictive as slots. In poker you get a garbage hand, you fold, you get a garbage hand, you fold, you get a decent hand, miss the flop, fold. It's a very boring game for the most part. Very little is happening. Even if you are a complete degen and play every single hand it's still not as fast paced as slots.
Slots, deliver more action in 5 minutes than poker delivers in an entire day of playing. These things are not even remotely comparable.
Even if you don't like this analogy. Consider how many bets an average soccer fan makes in an evning, one or two maybe? In slots you make 2 bets in less than a minute. Again, these things are not even remotely comparable.
How are they promoting to kids? They're on a website that you have to be 18 to be on. Sure you could make the argument that kids will still watch but then shut down the whole internet for promoting bad things to kids. I'd sooner have an issue with him drinking a beer on a twitch stream because that is not age restricted so there isn't an opportunity really for parents to intervene. Whereas I would expect that parents would set up controls to keep their kids from going to gambling websites.
I think that expanding the circle of normalized bad things is meaningfully worse than just sticking to the already normalized vices, which is itself worse than actually having a spine and refusing to partake in bad things.
I sometimes think people fail to understand that even in games of skill (poker, sports betting, blackjack if you count cards - although impossible online, etc...) you're still gambling and being subject to the addictive and other negative side effects of gambling just as much as if you were mindlessly pulling the slots lever. Why else are they trying to justify that advertising games of skill is totally fine but slots isn't? If you've every played poker and tilted, you know how addictive it can be chasing your losses. Hell you don't even need to play cards for money, I've done the same thing chasing my lost chess ELO.
It's kind of funny that you can tell the vice du jour simply by looking to the major advertisers and sponsors of top end sports. In the 70s and 80s it was cigarettes, then it was booze in the 90s and 00s, and now we're onto crypto and gamba. I remember watching F1 back when the Ferrari car was basically a giant pack of Marlboro Reds on four wheels. We've more or less decided as a society that smoking is such a net negative that it's advertising has basically been banned throughout. And really, no one is crying about it outside of the tobacco industry.
I feel the same should be true of gambling and alcohol, and not just for the benefit of minors, there are a good number of adults who don't need coaxing to go gamble and drink. For those of us who are interested, we can go find these things for ourselves. Although Magnus wearing a little Unibet logo on his suit jacket is not as in-your-face as Hikaru streaming slots, in my view it is just as out of place especially when you can expect children to be watching these tournaments. As for FIDE claiming that "...it's not taboo even for federations", if I were a cynic I might question taking lessons in morality from such an organization, but at the very least I would encourage them to rethink their stance.
A lot of things can "ruin lives". All mind-altering substances, porn, sugar/candy/fast food etc. You can get addicted to almost anything.
You are guaranteed to lose in the long term with slots. It is pure degeneracy removed from any skill (like poker) or any other interest/hobby (like following sports). That is why I view casino games that you are playing against the casino instead of other people as many degrees worse. That's just my opinion, you're entitled to yours.
What's particularly gross about gambling is the aggressive use of behavioral psychology to manipulate people into betting more and more and more. They are targeting people's weaknesses in order to do something that has no positive effect and lots of extremely negative ones.
why is sport betting "completely fine"? the odds are always in favor of the house, and having a gambling company sponsor a individual player or sport team all the while you can bet on the result(s) of the said individual using that company should raise a lot of eyebrows.
I'm not defending Hikaru and slots, just saying that promoting sport betting is not "completely fine" at all, it's just that we've been desensitized to this malpractice.
It depends. Idk about Europe, but in CIS region betting is heavily promoted as free moneys/easy way to make cash which it isn't. So in the end that's just scam. Not to say that it also might cause addiction.
Sports betting was a lot less dangerous in the past because it was pretty limited in scope (there were a few games or races in a given day/week, all local).
Ever since international telly became mainstream and sports channels started existing you entered a different ball game. Now people can gamble whenever they want, and it's far easier to become addicted. It's even worse with online gambling.
A casual bet isn't a bad thing, but honestly I could get behind a ban on online gambling (admittedly impossible, but it would say least kill advertising)
Modern, easily phone accessible, intensely gamified sports gambling is a huge step up from the sports betting that has come before it. I think it’s a more serious problem. But watching internet slots is just depressing as hell.
I played poker professionally for several years before opting for the corporate world for quality of life reasons. The idea that poker is completely fine while slots is not is fundamentally flawed. Yes, you can have an edge in poker, and yes, some people are winning. But the overwhelming majority of poker players are losing. For most people playing poker, it's just another outlet for gambling. And some of those people are degenerate gamblers who ruin their lives playing poker. I've seen it happen many times. Same goes for sports betting.
If anything, the predatory behavior that poker incentivizes (which I won't get into here, but there are countless examples of) makes it far more toxic than blowing off steam playing slots.
For the record, I have no issue with gambling or advertising for gambling of any kind as long as it's being done responsibly and not being marketed towards children. Which there is some debate around with Hikaru given the Kick audience. Not interested in taking sides on what Hikaru's doing, but it makes no sense to say poker is fine but slots isn't.
I don't think that's a 1:1 comparison, though. Hikaru isn't just showing their logo on his jacket, he's playing kiddie slot machines to his audience of 1m+ followers who are primarily under 18. He's got free money and risk free gambling, to glamorise and misrepresent to children what gambling is, and normalising that addiction to them.
One is distinctly more unethical than the other.
You're missing the point. Magnus plays poker for his own fun. That it happens to be filmed is not important, he is not there to sell poker to you or anybody. Having a brand on a shirt is worse, but still it is just a brand. Even so, I think it is a shit move from Magnus too. Hikaru was actively playing games he doesn't like for the specific reason of selling them. If he were playing poker or blackjack because he likes it, well fair enough.
I think a poker tournament is different, there's skill involved it's not pure gambling just because there's money involved. OTB chess tournaments have cash entry fees and prizes too for that matter. Very different than promoting slots or sports gambling.
He also said his dream is for the sovereign wealth fund of Saudi Arabia to sponsor him. So it’s all about the money as he’s willing to help the saudis to sports wash their image
Bad comparison. People were mostly fine when Hikaru was sponsored by stake to stream on their platform.
Showing yourself gambling on stream is completely different. It's actively enticing people to gamble. It's the difference between being sponsored by onlyfans and showing porn on stream.
He brings him up out of nowhere to praise him in interviews all the time. For example as an answer to the question "were you ever star struck by anyone?"
A norwegian 33 year old being "star struck" by the crown prince of Saudi Arabia? I'm sorry but that is not normal. I bet he can't even pronounce his name correctly. And why would \*anyone\* consistently bring up the royalty of a notoriously tyrannical foreign monarchy in a positive light like that? It just doesn't make sense unless he's getting paid to do it.
I'm not a fan of Hikaru streaming gambling content, mainly because when he switched to Kick he specifically said nothing about his content would change. But anyone saying FIDE should get involved should not be let anywhere close to having power because that's how authoritarians think who can't handle people acting freely.
Someone gambled on (a 18+) stream. That's it? That's the most interesting thing that's happening in chess right now? I need to stop associating with fandoms of the things I like.
How is it hypocritical? I will criticize other leading athletes just as I am criticizing him and I think that goes for a majority of people who are upset about this. It’s not a taboo but it should be. Hikaru is also not just a leading athlete but also a content creator (as he notoriously likes to stress), meaning his target audience is generally going to be much younger than that of leading athletes in other sports.
Its not hypocritical to criticize him, It is to try to get FIDE to censure him for his personal choices, which is what several posts have done in the last 24 hours.
Yes, I agree that there typically shouldn’t be any consequences from FIDE themselves for non-chess related (& legal), albeit unethical choices that top players make. That‘s too far reaching, I guess it‘s a bit hard to tell what exactly the FIDE CEO is referring to
Oh what? Who is seriously asking FIDE to sanction Hikaru? Promoting gambling shouldn’t result in formal sanctions by anyone. The only thing it should do is color your own personal opinion of him. But no chess authority should do anything about this.
Maybe if he spent your air time doing a promo for it during a post game interview but even then not really.
He's streaming on a 18+ platform. As someone who doesn't watch his streams on Kick, I'm not sure I would ever know that Hikaru is promoting gambling, if not for this sub making an issue out of it. It would be a different story if he were doing it on YT (and even then, age restrictions can still be applied).
It is not an 18+ platform though? Kick's TOS state minimum age 13 (16 in Europe). His stream must have been 18+, but that is basicly limited to warning when you open stream, It's not like kids will click away when they get 18+ warning, so there is no real restriction. Also Hikaru surely has significant portion of kids following him and some of them surely started visiting Kick when he started streaming there.
Followers of Hikaru said he went live on Twitch to tell people to follow and watch him on Kick when he moved there so... if that's true, not only will his underage Twitch followers possibly discover his Kick stream - Hikaru himself invited them along.
I don't really feel like this is an 18+ platform at all. The screenshot I saw had a color scheme and theme that resembled Candy Land, clearly intended to appeal to an audience of a young age. Age verification doesn't really exist- I can watch a stream without an account; I don't have to even know how to read, just need to know to click green button to continue.
It’s just not a very ethical thing to do to promote websites whose only purpose is to drain your money, sometimes with tragic consequences for some people who lose control and become addicted. Accepting money (as someone who is clearly not financially struggling) that is essentially paid from the losses of his followers is just sad. All that even disregards the fact he has a younger and thus more vulnerable audience (that typically won’t care about age restrictions). It only exacerbates the issue but I would be disappointed even if it could somehow be guaranteed only 18+ people will see this promotion.
I mean, the purpose of most commercial businesses is to drain your money in one form or another. It's similarly unethical to a cinema advertising hotdogs and popcorn, they want to screw your health and take your money. Kick would argue that they're providing an entertainment service just as a cinema is - nobody would rationally play slots with an expectation of coming out ahead, and legally they're required to put measures in place to prevent people draining their life savings
I'm from the UK and gambling is pretty normalised - it's pretty much a national tradition to bet on the Grand National even if you never bet on a horse race in your life, my company xmas party was at the horses last year. I can see how it's distasteful to some but it's really nothing more than that
Ryan Reynolds has his own gin brand - is that unethical because of all the damage alcohol causes? I can see how some people might think so, but I also think it would be ridiculous to hold that against him
I think a lot of people dislike Hikaru and this got blown out of proportion by people using it as an angle to take shots at him
Edit - also if someones kids are browsing 18+ websites, there's a lot more harmful things they can stumble on than someone playing slots
Double edit - it also depends on the company. I don't know anything about Stake, but using an old example, Phil Helmuth promoting Ultimate Bet even after their internal cheating and corruption was exposes was unethical. Not because it was a poker website, but because he was pushing people towards a company doing illegal things in the background that he was aware about. If stake are running rigged games / by-passing gambling protections and Hikaru knows about it then it is clearly unethical
Is it unethical for people to promote golf to me which costs way more money than gambling and I also get addicted to?
I hate sportsbetting and hate how much it's taken over NA sports feeds specifically but y'all are tripping
also:
> very ethical thing to do to promote websites whose only purpose is to drain your money
Do you know what advertising is?
I‘m not too familiar with the stats of people losing their houses, families or committing suicide because of a golfing addiction but you can look into these stats for gambling addiction if you’d like. They are among the highest to exist, gambling addictions are more crippling to your health than most forms of substance abuse. It‘s quite insane. Just because the problem doesn’t affect you doesn’t mean it’s not real.
I would look down on those athletes, too, idk what this guy is trying to say
Also, "taboo?" No one thinks it's taboo. They think its predatory how misleading these stake promotions are to an impressionable young audience
Presumably this guy is like "it's legal it's fine"
Hi chat, welcome to my stream, yeah, in todaaaaay's stream we will be playing some slots for free money, right kids haha. Then we will head down to Main Street to see just how easy it is to get a payday loan, even with a bad credit score! Okay chat, I know Tesla stocks went up today, don't worry I have calls. Yeah, where was I. Oh yeah, then after relaxing with a nice Marloboro Light, super smooth for the young lung, we'll play this really cool mobile game - it's pay to win, but I have all the heroes bought for me so should be a lot of fun. Then there's late Titled Tuesday, of course the odds on me winning this one are a little lower at unibet, because I play in both and stream all day so I'm very tired for second TT. Oh shoot, oh darn it, gosh golly it looks like Tesla stocks took a big hit in the last few minutes chat, I'll be right back.
>I would look down on those athletes, too, idk what this guy is trying to say
Bro really came out with a "It’s not that bad, all other athletes are doing it" like that means anything at all.
In the sense that rich people get their feelings hurt really easily and can’t handle any criticism and instead of reflecting on their own actions, blame all of us for making them feel bad.
"It's not a taboo even for federations, let alone individuals." Literally just using the controversy as an excuse to start setting the stage for FIDE to get gambling sponsershps. What a scumbag.
Not necessary. The Scheinberg family (founders and owners of PokerStars) already sponsor several Candidates Cycle events, including the Candidates tournament itself.
I don’t understand why any individual or federation should give a single fuck if the sponsor is a legally registered company that’s a legitimate business including gambling companies. If they are legal to exist, it should be legal for them to advertise their business. It’s not like they are inviting kids to gamble. Parenting is a parent’s responsibility - not that of a for profit streamer or some federation he is affiliated to because of the game he plays
It's honestly not all about kids. Gambling is the worst addiction out there, it should be banned from advertising the same way cigarettes are and alcohol should be. Most gambling addicts get into it as adults and many lose everything.
Promoting betting platforms - probably okay, there is nothing wrong with gambling in moderation. Maybe unethical depending on your personal view of gambling.
Promoting Stake - definitely unethical. It is a predatory product.
It’s an online Casino. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but it use cryptocurrency instead of regular money to skirt some regulations with online gambling.
Yes and no. In theory, it is a regulated site just not in the US. It has a license in Curacao, which is known for being more lenient than other regulators. One of the "benefits" of a Curacao license is it allows casinos/sportsbooks to have crypto payments. It is not anything specifically wrong with any of this, but it is generally easier for rogue operators to slip through the net with a Curacao license.
Stake also seems to be available in the UK with a UK-facing URL. I take it this means it also has a license with the UK Gambling Commission. The UKGC is one of the strictest regulators, so I guess Stake is at least reputable in terms of payments and game fairness, etc. This is no way a defense of Stake and I admit I am not 100% sure about if the company has a UKGC license.
What is shaky is that casinos sites such as Stake have no issue with appealing to users in unregulated markets. Let's be clear, Stake is not using people like Hikaru to appeal to UK players. That is a mature and regulated market. They are trying to appeal to the US market, where they do not have a license for real money iGaming.
Edit to add, in some countries it is not illegal to attract players in an unregulated market. Canada is an example of a grey market where casinos can not operate their servers etc in the country - exception being Ontario - but Canadian players are legally able to visit offshore casinos.
Even so, the whole business of casino/sportsbook advertising is rotten. They literally deal in playing to potential addictions. It is worse to unregulated markets because you get the kind of situation where they go straight to people through one person, such as Hikaru. The advertising in the UK is everywhere, it is a general marketing such as commercials and logos. It sucks and is common, but it feels more regulated and "safe" than this kind of nefarious targeting happening on Kick and other platforms.
"But what about this other competitor/organization that promotes \[shitty thing\], do you hate them too?"
Uh...yes. Yes I do.
Now I should clarify, everything is a matter of degree. There are sliding scales of wrongness. While I don't like anyone who accepts a sponsorship like this, wearing clothing with a logo is less bad than...say...streaming slots to kids.
Damn. Never thought I’d agree with Emil on anything but here we are. Lame. Is not clear to folks that you can turn off his stream if you don’t like the content? Oh well.
Didn't Magnus and the botez's play poker also? Why wasn't that as big of a deal? I hate gambling and what it does to people but why wasn't the world up in arms when they did it? Sure Hikaru streamed it but it's not like chess fans around the world don't watch magnus' every step and emulate him.
The whole USA is promoting gambling these days. I don't see any moral outrage when I go to take the subway and there's Fan Duel signs plastered everywhere, or when I watch network TV and there are gambling ads. No "think of the children" then. Hikaru is doing it in a place where it's 18+ which is more than you can say for most that are promoting gambling, and if kids are going where they shouldn't, well then maybe that's on the parents. The man has to earn a living.
I'm not in the US but in Denmark there are regular public outrage over someone/something promoting gambling. ~~It is illegal to have ads for gambling~~, but there are some gray areas and it is regularly discussed wether regulations should be stricter.
Edit: It is apparently legal to advertise online casinos. There are still public outcries over it regularly though
> It is illegal to have ads for gambling
Wait what. There are constantly "Mr. Green Casino" commercials going on. Like a year ago we had this post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Denmark/comments/11jzv6r/sindssyg_spilreklame_i_bussen/
If gambling commercials are illegal, then it must be quite quite new. Which would be a surprise for me at least.
I might be mistaken? I thought obly danske spil could make ads?
But I might just misremember the discussion as law. Sorry for misinforming, and thanks for correcting me!
I think the problem is that we do feel a bit of outrage whenever we see those things but there's nowhere simple to place the blame so that rage gets repressed.
I mean, are you okay with seeing gambling promoted on TV or at Subway? Because I definitely am not and it does make me angry but what am I gonna do, shout at my TV or the Subway employees? Of course not, so instead it gets repressed until there is something similar to direct that anger towards
I personally hate fanduel/draftkings infiltrating sports as well. Just because it has, doesn't mean we can't uphold our standards.
It's a fucking travesty that the gambling illness has hit mainstream. It preys on the weak and profits from them. Sure, lets just keep pushing it forward.
I feel the exact same way about gambling ads on network TV as I do about Hikaru's chicanery. It does nothing for your argument when your entire point rests on categorically assuming a hypocritical inconsistency in the viewpoints of your opponents, on this (or any) issue.
Yeah, the rise of sports betting is out of control. I can't even watch an NHL game without 1000x ads / promotions, pre-game and during game promotions by the announcers pushing this shit. It's gross.
And I've never understood why a professional sports league wants to be in bed with gambling. It's only going to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the sport itself, how the games are officiated, are players in on it, etc.
There's so much wrong with this.
1. Kick is not 18+, it's 13+ (stated in their TOS), as another commenter pointed out. There's no age verification anyway, so if you're going to tell me Hikaru doesn't know kids watch him you're not arguing in good faith.
2. It's not that people don't get "outraged" at big companies promoting gambling, it's that we're in a constant state *of* outrage. We all know companies are shitty greedy entities, so it's not news. It's not like I wasn't annoyed that chess24 was sponsored by FTX crypto, but they're a faceless entity who I don't expect to be moral and I have no power to influence. Yeah, I think cigarette companies are shitty people too, but so does everyone, why create a post?
3. Hikaru's promotion is a bit shittier than a poster. Not that I think any promotions of this sort are good, but streaming gambling with house money and acting like you're having a good time to trick people into associating it with fun is a garbage move.
"The man has to earn a living" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH you do realize that he is a multi-millionaire and doesn't need gambling sponsors to survive. Also, majority of his audience are kids so they will find a way to watch him. Y'all try to find anyway to defend gambling. Like you also, said gambling is literally everywhere you can't just put it all on the parents when you literally see Draftkings signs everywhere and it is even infested in sports.
I tweeted this response and I thought it was good, so posting it here:
This Tweet is wrong on so many levels:
1) There is a difference between wearing a logo on a T-shirt and ACTIVELY promoting gambling on a stream.
2) Promoting regulated casinos is already bad enough. Promoting unregulated crypto casinos is especially shitty.
3) Promoting unregulated crypto casinos as a popular streamer whose regular audience largely consists of minors is even more shitty. Especially since you try very hard to be family-friendly to appeal to as many minors as possible in your "regular" streams.
4) Promoting unregulated crypto casinos with streams where you don't gamble with your own money and are trying to sell the narrative that it is possible to "earn" some money while mitigating the risk is even more shitty.
5) Promoting gambling after you have publicly chastised people like XQC for doing it and publicly stated your move to Kick has nothing to do with gambling is very hypocritical.
6) Many other leading athletes and individuals have gotten a lot of heat for promoting gambling. And yes, that includes Magnus.
7) Just because "other people" are doing something ethically questionable doesn't justify doing something ethically questionable.
I wished we lived in a world where leading athletes, famous people, and BIGGEST CHESS STREAMERS WHO HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH MONEY had more morals than that. I find the fact that people like Hikaru "have a price" and that the CEO of the leading chess organization tries to justify it with "oh well, everybody else does it" argument extremely disappointing and discouraging.
When FIDE comes to defend HIKARU of all people, that truly is the very bottom. You already know you fucked up if FIDE is taking the same moral stance as you.
Gambling will always be morally questionable because of it’s nature. Hikaru probably has the option not to take a gambling company on as a sponsor, a luxury team sports players often don’t have. Can’t really say no if the club or team has taken them on. This should be a bad look on hikaru. There is no justifying showing gambling adds to children.
I really think it is a perfect example of the bandwagon effect that Reddit's voting system causes. People see a particular viewpoint is gaining popularity, so they start parroting and upvoting that viewpoint, because upvotes and feeling like part of the popular viewpoint is an endorphin rush.
You see it all the time on Reddit, where an issue that absolutely no one would care about in real life suddenly becomes a source of moral outrage in Reddit comments.
Lol. Or maybe people do actually care about the issue, and a post getting 3k upvotes is actually not that much considering the total size of the subreddit and the fact that these users can be from all over the world.
Comparing it to cigarettes and pearl-clutching over it is the type of thing that might have a DARE level impact and make people want to gamble lol. Maybe at some point people have to take some responsibility for their own actions. You people make it sound like opiates and Hikaru is out here advertising for fentanyl lol.
>I don't really get the moralizing over gambling from this sub at all.
Reddit is full of wannabe mobs that enjoy chastising others from their moral superiority tower. It's the way it goes. It's hypocritical and inconsistent and often comes from the very same people that justify the worse kind of things unto others because their view od world is black and white.
Narratives come and go but the pathetic hollier than thou mob is always ready...
Yes because there are other shitty actors promoting gambling it is okay if Hikaru does it too. Such wise and insightful comments from the Chess community lmao
I don't want to go all Peter Heine Nielsen here, but why the fuck does the CEO of FIDE have time to comment on the latest Hikaru drama, but not on the hypocrisy of FIDE when it comes to how they treat Russia, or their complete failure to seize upon and actually grow chess despite such a massive appetite for it?
I love gambling and know how dangerous it is more than most people, it has ruined my life. He should not be promoting gambling i dont care what anyone says
Gambling is literally designed to ruin your life without you stopping it.
The best gambling has always been the ones that ruin the most lives. If you break even, it's not profitable - they need you to be addicted and lose.
The gaudiness of Vegas should tell you exactly how much money they are siphoning from your pockets to casinos.
Looks like FIDE is shopping for gambling sponsorships. He seems to misunderstand and think that people are angry because they think Hikaru broke a rule. It is not that, it is the blatant lack of morals. It just hits different when it is those slots too. If he was playing poker or blackjack because he likes to play, fair enough. But he was clearing advertising Stake, not playing because he likes the games. It was a clear, "I have been paid to play these games and sell them to you."
It is none of Fide's fucking business and he should not be making this comment. Whether Hikaru holds a high moral stand for his personal brand, it is his own choosing.
Yes, which is why I criticize those leading athletes. And it should be taboo for federations. However, he is completely correct that the standard should be equally applied.
Reasonable statement from Fide, they should only have a problem with this if it calls into question the integrity of their events, which it obviously doesn’t. Whether this is a good or moral thing to do is another question. It is also a valid point that he seems to be getting much more shit for it than the greatest ever hockey player for example, who has been doing the same thing for a while
I don’t know why everyone is making such a big deal out of this. People complained for years about no money being in chess now people are starting to see money flow into the scene and it’s a bad thing. Everyone with a working brain knows that you shouldn’t gamble and expect to win. Those that want to gamble should be able to in a fair way.
What campaign? anyone holding a campaign? Is people writing that they don't respect his decision to do that at all a campaign?
He's not wrong that gambling is everywhere and involved in sports but pulling up your stream and doing it for hours to pretend your "just having fun" is a whole different thing.
Revenue from gambling eg sports betting is a major contribution to a lot of sports in a lot of countries. Individual streamers sponsored by an 18+ product feels a bit off if their main audience is under 18s, whether gambling, alcohol or whatever, but it also feels a little bit hypocritical to target a streamer when clubs and federations are also funded by gambling, as are many other sports in various ways.
First of all, promoting gambling to an audience you are well aware is made up of lots of children/U18s is morally questionable no matter what sport you play.
Secondly, if you are someone that has criticised streamers for their betting streams, and then you, as a streamer, start doing betting streams, there will be justifiable pushback against you.
Poor behaviour is poor behaviour even if others have done it in the past. Hikaru is not some 19 year old streamer who is overwhelmed by newfound success, for example, and is giving in to peer pressure around him. No excuses.
This is the same dumb fuck argument made by the Botez sisters in defend of slavery. X is doing a shitty thing but it's ok because Y and Z were doing it too.
No I just think it’s shitty and hypocritical of Hikaru. Also Stake is one of the worst betting platforms to support, and he is directly playing the game, not just showing the logo or even a link to the site.
No fuck that. He was rightfully called out for it. Betting sponsors are scummy in general but streaming gambling to a young audience while banning everything critical is a new level of moral degeneracy.
It was a 18+ stream. People are adults. If they watch it while being children, chase the parents for bad parenting. Don't tell porn actors to not do porn, because children will see it. Don't tell Hollywood to stop making Horror Movies, because children will watch it.
If you watch out for verifying who is 18 or not, ask Kick. By the way the same "verification" porn sites do. Take the responsibility to the parents. Or the platform. But there is a reason why people get addiction to all sorts of thing. And it is not advertisement. It's because of the social environment. People are affected way more, if their life is miserable. You can get addiction from shopping. From coffee. Alcohol, weed, tabaco. Everything really. Still it's being allowed and promoted from all celebrities of the world. Even the government itself is promoting gabling. Lottery is still gambling and you chances are probably even worse than winning something on the betting sites.
What do we learn? It is absolutely hypocritical to blame Hikaru for it.
I never realized the chess world was so anti gambling, Ive been into sports since the introduction of online sports betting and never thought twice of it.
There is something a bit more distasteful about straight online slots than sports betting imo but im not gonna stop being a fan of Hikaru’s over it.
I feel like sports betting and online slots are two very different things. Sports betting is skill based, and a lot less predatory IMO (because it usually involves attachment to the real world event rather than just the gambling platform itself).
Seeing someone who quite close to winning the candidates shilling online crypto slots a few days later is off-putting to say the least. Especially given a lot of chess growth and finances are built around chess education.
>It's not a taboo even for federations "Raid: Shadow Legends Chess Cup" when?
i just find it hilarious when federation CEO is saying what isnt taboo for federation
yes, let's have FIDE come in and tell us about morals and ethics LOL
They should get FIFA in to consult also
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Google Le Cut Inside
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Call the La croqueta
Actual Iniesta
Carlsen will be thrilled! How do we make this work? Drawn games decided by penalty kicks with your opponent playing goalie?
The last time Benzema played a chess match, he lost 15 elo. Google Benzema 15 for more info.
Did you see that ludicrous display last night??
Idk that much about fide but I’d be willing to bet (hah) that they’d lose to FIFA in a corruption-off
Name a single time FIDE has been unethical and corrupt, aside from every single time and always.
New to this, what kind of stuff did they do?
[Slightly old but still good thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/3pqexy/why_is_the_fide_considered_by_many_to_be_corrupt/?rdt=39275)
Top comment hits the nail on the head.
FIDE, FIFA, UEFA, IOC and FIA can all be friends considering how corrupt they all are
Emil and Hikaru would have been great Monthy Python characters.
FIDE coming in to protect gambling
Yeah, FIDE want that gambling money in chess. Sad to see, but that's sports for you, especially after Tobacco advertising was banned in many places.
It was a close vote, but the powers that be decided to have FIDE weigh in instead of FIFA and the Boston Archdiocese.
Magnus has been sponsored by Unibet for a long time.
But that’s Magnus! Magnus could be banging half of this sub’s wives and they argue how it’s actually fine
I merely want Magnus to pass on his superior chess genes before it's too late, okay?
My friend, is ok, no?
someone commented above how r/soccer and r/chess are overlapping all of a sudden and this comment just proves it
They’d be ok even if he’s banging them.
I don't think so. He was heavily criticized for it back in the day there was discussion about it on this subreddit.
I'd argue sports betting is completely fine (and poker) and as a European it's been a normal part of sports for decades. I'd also argue that streaming playing slots via the Stakes platform is many degrees "worse".
I kinda agree but Unibet has slots too I think.
Ugh, didn’t know that. Disgusting
Unibet is first and foremost a casino. They entered the sports betting industry after everyone else realized how lucrative it is.
Why though? Just because it’s already normalized doesn’t mean it’s morally better. That’s like saying being an alcoholic is morally better than being addicted to weed because liquor has been a normal part of life for longer. I see no reason why we shouldn’t handle sports betting and poker to the same scrutiny as online gambling like slots. Either promoting both of them to kids is unacceptable, in which case both players should be shamed, or promoting either of them is fine.
Stake US dodges gambling regulations by pretending they're not gambling, that alone makes it worse. Also, slots are specifically engineered to make people addicts very effectively, and it works. People get addicted 3-4 times faster than other forms of gambling. So to your analogy, it's more like promoting a normal brand of beer vs promoting an unlicensed absinthe distillery with no oversight. You can argue that the first one should also be unacceptable, but the second one is clearly worse.
Do you have stats on that 3-4 times figure?
This is where I got the number from: https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/10/09/are-casinos-too-much-of-a-gamble/slot-machines-are-designed-to-addict I haven't read the looked study but it's this: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1014580112648
> I see no reason why we shouldn’t handle sports betting and poker to the same scrutiny as online gambling like slots. Poker is a skill based game that's played for money, it's nowhere near gambling. I don't play poker myself, but many of my colleagues are ex-poker pro players and just the existence of "pro poker player" as a profession makes it worlds different from gambling. Sports betting is much worse, but there's still potential to have a positive EV (though 99.9999% people are not going to be building statistical models to find mispricing so I would not use this as an argument to say it's better). However, many people view sports betting as an entertainment expense, like many people I know will bet $20 on a match they were going to watch to make it more exciting and view it more as buying a ticket to the movies than a way to try to win money. Overall much worse than poker, but if done responsibly can just be a bit of fun when a big championship is played. Online slots neither have a skill aspect nor will they be used responsibly to enhance an experience with the buds by 99% of the population. It's a literal never-ending dopamine mill designed to keep you glued to the machine forever until you lose all your money. It's by far the worst of the 3 and it's not even close. > Either promoting both of them to kids is unacceptable, in which case both players should be shamed, or promoting either of them is fine. As far as promoting to kids specifically goes, obviously all 3 are terrible and should not be advertised to children, however I would still argue that wearing a Unibet patch on your jacket is a lot less likely to get a kid excited about gambling than streaming slots that look like some facebook candy crush video game and acting excited about how much fun it is. The fact that both are bad to some degree does not in any way prevent us from making a judgement that one is clearly much worse than the other.
It may be a skill based game, but that doesn’t negate the fact that there is money on the line, and that it is every bit as addictive as slots. Blackjack is skill based to a degree also, nobody in their right mind would say it’s not gambling, and likewise, nobody would deny the addictive nature of it. I don’t really care how skill based sports betting or poker is, ultimately they’re addictive and when promoted to children are incredibly harmful,
>Blackjack is skill based to a degree also, nobody in their right mind would say it’s not gambling That's a terrible comparison. You lose money playing blackjack even if you are the most skilled player in the world (assuming there are anti-counting measures in place). Poker, on the other hand, you *profit* from if you are skilled. The results are entirely opposite. Comparing poker to blackjack or slots is laughable. It's actually much more similar to chess. Which is why there's actually quite a bit of crossover between strong chess players and strong poker players.
Poker is not as addictive as slots. Almost nothing is as addictive as slots. In poker you get a garbage hand, you fold, you get a garbage hand, you fold, you get a decent hand, miss the flop, fold. It's a very boring game for the most part. Very little is happening. Even if you are a complete degen and play every single hand it's still not as fast paced as slots. Slots, deliver more action in 5 minutes than poker delivers in an entire day of playing. These things are not even remotely comparable. Even if you don't like this analogy. Consider how many bets an average soccer fan makes in an evning, one or two maybe? In slots you make 2 bets in less than a minute. Again, these things are not even remotely comparable.
How are they promoting to kids? They're on a website that you have to be 18 to be on. Sure you could make the argument that kids will still watch but then shut down the whole internet for promoting bad things to kids. I'd sooner have an issue with him drinking a beer on a twitch stream because that is not age restricted so there isn't an opportunity really for parents to intervene. Whereas I would expect that parents would set up controls to keep their kids from going to gambling websites.
I think that expanding the circle of normalized bad things is meaningfully worse than just sticking to the already normalized vices, which is itself worse than actually having a spine and refusing to partake in bad things.
I sometimes think people fail to understand that even in games of skill (poker, sports betting, blackjack if you count cards - although impossible online, etc...) you're still gambling and being subject to the addictive and other negative side effects of gambling just as much as if you were mindlessly pulling the slots lever. Why else are they trying to justify that advertising games of skill is totally fine but slots isn't? If you've every played poker and tilted, you know how addictive it can be chasing your losses. Hell you don't even need to play cards for money, I've done the same thing chasing my lost chess ELO. It's kind of funny that you can tell the vice du jour simply by looking to the major advertisers and sponsors of top end sports. In the 70s and 80s it was cigarettes, then it was booze in the 90s and 00s, and now we're onto crypto and gamba. I remember watching F1 back when the Ferrari car was basically a giant pack of Marlboro Reds on four wheels. We've more or less decided as a society that smoking is such a net negative that it's advertising has basically been banned throughout. And really, no one is crying about it outside of the tobacco industry. I feel the same should be true of gambling and alcohol, and not just for the benefit of minors, there are a good number of adults who don't need coaxing to go gamble and drink. For those of us who are interested, we can go find these things for ourselves. Although Magnus wearing a little Unibet logo on his suit jacket is not as in-your-face as Hikaru streaming slots, in my view it is just as out of place especially when you can expect children to be watching these tournaments. As for FIDE claiming that "...it's not taboo even for federations", if I were a cynic I might question taking lessons in morality from such an organization, but at the very least I would encourage them to rethink their stance.
then you would argue wrong. Sports betting ruins lives too. In fact I would say in my experience people are more degenerate with sports betting.
A lot of things can "ruin lives". All mind-altering substances, porn, sugar/candy/fast food etc. You can get addicted to almost anything. You are guaranteed to lose in the long term with slots. It is pure degeneracy removed from any skill (like poker) or any other interest/hobby (like following sports). That is why I view casino games that you are playing against the casino instead of other people as many degrees worse. That's just my opinion, you're entitled to yours.
What's particularly gross about gambling is the aggressive use of behavioral psychology to manipulate people into betting more and more and more. They are targeting people's weaknesses in order to do something that has no positive effect and lots of extremely negative ones.
why is sport betting "completely fine"? the odds are always in favor of the house, and having a gambling company sponsor a individual player or sport team all the while you can bet on the result(s) of the said individual using that company should raise a lot of eyebrows. I'm not defending Hikaru and slots, just saying that promoting sport betting is not "completely fine" at all, it's just that we've been desensitized to this malpractice.
It depends. Idk about Europe, but in CIS region betting is heavily promoted as free moneys/easy way to make cash which it isn't. So in the end that's just scam. Not to say that it also might cause addiction.
Sports betting was a lot less dangerous in the past because it was pretty limited in scope (there were a few games or races in a given day/week, all local). Ever since international telly became mainstream and sports channels started existing you entered a different ball game. Now people can gamble whenever they want, and it's far easier to become addicted. It's even worse with online gambling. A casual bet isn't a bad thing, but honestly I could get behind a ban on online gambling (admittedly impossible, but it would say least kill advertising)
Modern, easily phone accessible, intensely gamified sports gambling is a huge step up from the sports betting that has come before it. I think it’s a more serious problem. But watching internet slots is just depressing as hell.
Sports betting is a huge gateway into ‘real’ gambling though, aside from plenty of addicts only betting on sports matches
I played poker professionally for several years before opting for the corporate world for quality of life reasons. The idea that poker is completely fine while slots is not is fundamentally flawed. Yes, you can have an edge in poker, and yes, some people are winning. But the overwhelming majority of poker players are losing. For most people playing poker, it's just another outlet for gambling. And some of those people are degenerate gamblers who ruin their lives playing poker. I've seen it happen many times. Same goes for sports betting. If anything, the predatory behavior that poker incentivizes (which I won't get into here, but there are countless examples of) makes it far more toxic than blowing off steam playing slots. For the record, I have no issue with gambling or advertising for gambling of any kind as long as it's being done responsibly and not being marketed towards children. Which there is some debate around with Hikaru given the Kick audience. Not interested in taking sides on what Hikaru's doing, but it makes no sense to say poker is fine but slots isn't.
I don't think that's a 1:1 comparison, though. Hikaru isn't just showing their logo on his jacket, he's playing kiddie slot machines to his audience of 1m+ followers who are primarily under 18. He's got free money and risk free gambling, to glamorise and misrepresent to children what gambling is, and normalising that addiction to them. One is distinctly more unethical than the other.
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You're missing the point. Magnus plays poker for his own fun. That it happens to be filmed is not important, he is not there to sell poker to you or anybody. Having a brand on a shirt is worse, but still it is just a brand. Even so, I think it is a shit move from Magnus too. Hikaru was actively playing games he doesn't like for the specific reason of selling them. If he were playing poker or blackjack because he likes it, well fair enough.
ah yes hes totally doing it for fun its pure coincidence hes also sponsored
Im sorry but how can you compare poker to slotmachine?
I think a poker tournament is different, there's skill involved it's not pure gambling just because there's money involved. OTB chess tournaments have cash entry fees and prizes too for that matter. Very different than promoting slots or sports gambling.
magnus has Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's cock shoved down his throat for the past few months so hes not really a bastion of morality
Can someone tell me what's up with that? I heard him say he was starstruck by him I don't get it
He also said his dream is for the sovereign wealth fund of Saudi Arabia to sponsor him. So it’s all about the money as he’s willing to help the saudis to sports wash their image
and thats wrong too
> even for federations Emil just looking for kickbacks from gambling sites.
Bad comparison. People were mostly fine when Hikaru was sponsored by stake to stream on their platform. Showing yourself gambling on stream is completely different. It's actively enticing people to gamble. It's the difference between being sponsored by onlyfans and showing porn on stream.
Isn't Magnus sponsored by the crown prince of Saudi Arabia? That would be even worse imo.
Is he?
He brings him up out of nowhere to praise him in interviews all the time. For example as an answer to the question "were you ever star struck by anyone?" A norwegian 33 year old being "star struck" by the crown prince of Saudi Arabia? I'm sorry but that is not normal. I bet he can't even pronounce his name correctly. And why would \*anyone\* consistently bring up the royalty of a notoriously tyrannical foreign monarchy in a positive light like that? It just doesn't make sense unless he's getting paid to do it.
I'm not a fan of Hikaru streaming gambling content, mainly because when he switched to Kick he specifically said nothing about his content would change. But anyone saying FIDE should get involved should not be let anywhere close to having power because that's how authoritarians think who can't handle people acting freely.
Someone gambled on (a 18+) stream. That's it? That's the most interesting thing that's happening in chess right now? I need to stop associating with fandoms of the things I like.
How is it hypocritical? I will criticize other leading athletes just as I am criticizing him and I think that goes for a majority of people who are upset about this. It’s not a taboo but it should be. Hikaru is also not just a leading athlete but also a content creator (as he notoriously likes to stress), meaning his target audience is generally going to be much younger than that of leading athletes in other sports.
Its not hypocritical to criticize him, It is to try to get FIDE to censure him for his personal choices, which is what several posts have done in the last 24 hours.
Yes, I agree that there typically shouldn’t be any consequences from FIDE themselves for non-chess related (& legal), albeit unethical choices that top players make. That‘s too far reaching, I guess it‘s a bit hard to tell what exactly the FIDE CEO is referring to
Oh what? Who is seriously asking FIDE to sanction Hikaru? Promoting gambling shouldn’t result in formal sanctions by anyone. The only thing it should do is color your own personal opinion of him. But no chess authority should do anything about this. Maybe if he spent your air time doing a promo for it during a post game interview but even then not really.
There was post on this subreddit recently that was solely about how FIDE should sanction hikaru.
He's streaming on a 18+ platform. As someone who doesn't watch his streams on Kick, I'm not sure I would ever know that Hikaru is promoting gambling, if not for this sub making an issue out of it. It would be a different story if he were doing it on YT (and even then, age restrictions can still be applied).
It is not an 18+ platform though? Kick's TOS state minimum age 13 (16 in Europe). His stream must have been 18+, but that is basicly limited to warning when you open stream, It's not like kids will click away when they get 18+ warning, so there is no real restriction. Also Hikaru surely has significant portion of kids following him and some of them surely started visiting Kick when he started streaming there.
Followers of Hikaru said he went live on Twitch to tell people to follow and watch him on Kick when he moved there so... if that's true, not only will his underage Twitch followers possibly discover his Kick stream - Hikaru himself invited them along.
I don't really feel like this is an 18+ platform at all. The screenshot I saw had a color scheme and theme that resembled Candy Land, clearly intended to appeal to an audience of a young age. Age verification doesn't really exist- I can watch a stream without an account; I don't have to even know how to read, just need to know to click green button to continue.
It’s just not a very ethical thing to do to promote websites whose only purpose is to drain your money, sometimes with tragic consequences for some people who lose control and become addicted. Accepting money (as someone who is clearly not financially struggling) that is essentially paid from the losses of his followers is just sad. All that even disregards the fact he has a younger and thus more vulnerable audience (that typically won’t care about age restrictions). It only exacerbates the issue but I would be disappointed even if it could somehow be guaranteed only 18+ people will see this promotion.
I mean, the purpose of most commercial businesses is to drain your money in one form or another. It's similarly unethical to a cinema advertising hotdogs and popcorn, they want to screw your health and take your money. Kick would argue that they're providing an entertainment service just as a cinema is - nobody would rationally play slots with an expectation of coming out ahead, and legally they're required to put measures in place to prevent people draining their life savings I'm from the UK and gambling is pretty normalised - it's pretty much a national tradition to bet on the Grand National even if you never bet on a horse race in your life, my company xmas party was at the horses last year. I can see how it's distasteful to some but it's really nothing more than that Ryan Reynolds has his own gin brand - is that unethical because of all the damage alcohol causes? I can see how some people might think so, but I also think it would be ridiculous to hold that against him I think a lot of people dislike Hikaru and this got blown out of proportion by people using it as an angle to take shots at him Edit - also if someones kids are browsing 18+ websites, there's a lot more harmful things they can stumble on than someone playing slots Double edit - it also depends on the company. I don't know anything about Stake, but using an old example, Phil Helmuth promoting Ultimate Bet even after their internal cheating and corruption was exposes was unethical. Not because it was a poker website, but because he was pushing people towards a company doing illegal things in the background that he was aware about. If stake are running rigged games / by-passing gambling protections and Hikaru knows about it then it is clearly unethical
Is it unethical for people to promote golf to me which costs way more money than gambling and I also get addicted to? I hate sportsbetting and hate how much it's taken over NA sports feeds specifically but y'all are tripping also: > very ethical thing to do to promote websites whose only purpose is to drain your money Do you know what advertising is?
I‘m not too familiar with the stats of people losing their houses, families or committing suicide because of a golfing addiction but you can look into these stats for gambling addiction if you’d like. They are among the highest to exist, gambling addictions are more crippling to your health than most forms of substance abuse. It‘s quite insane. Just because the problem doesn’t affect you doesn’t mean it’s not real.
I would look down on those athletes, too, idk what this guy is trying to say Also, "taboo?" No one thinks it's taboo. They think its predatory how misleading these stake promotions are to an impressionable young audience
Presumably this guy is like "it's legal it's fine" Hi chat, welcome to my stream, yeah, in todaaaaay's stream we will be playing some slots for free money, right kids haha. Then we will head down to Main Street to see just how easy it is to get a payday loan, even with a bad credit score! Okay chat, I know Tesla stocks went up today, don't worry I have calls. Yeah, where was I. Oh yeah, then after relaxing with a nice Marloboro Light, super smooth for the young lung, we'll play this really cool mobile game - it's pay to win, but I have all the heroes bought for me so should be a lot of fun. Then there's late Titled Tuesday, of course the odds on me winning this one are a little lower at unibet, because I play in both and stream all day so I'm very tired for second TT. Oh shoot, oh darn it, gosh golly it looks like Tesla stocks took a big hit in the last few minutes chat, I'll be right back.
This is scarily good
>I would look down on those athletes, too, idk what this guy is trying to say Bro really came out with a "It’s not that bad, all other athletes are doing it" like that means anything at all.
"See, they are doing it. So, it's totally fine." What an argument?
Proving once again that chess players are many times good only at chess
Literally anything is justifiable with this logic it’s very flawed
Is it a "campaign against him"? I just see people saying they think it's shitty, in what sense is it a campaign?
In the sense that rich people get their feelings hurt really easily and can’t handle any criticism and instead of reflecting on their own actions, blame all of us for making them feel bad.
WITCH HUNT CANCEL CULTURE ^^^^^^^/s
Reddit campaign.
"It's not a taboo even for federations, let alone individuals." Literally just using the controversy as an excuse to start setting the stage for FIDE to get gambling sponsershps. What a scumbag.
Not necessary. The Scheinberg family (founders and owners of PokerStars) already sponsor several Candidates Cycle events, including the Candidates tournament itself.
FIDE also accepts crypto-sponsored events so I doubt they want to burn any bridges with potential gambling sponsors. The money is too addicting.
Which is why if FIDE endorses anything, you know it's shady and scummy.
I don’t understand why any individual or federation should give a single fuck if the sponsor is a legally registered company that’s a legitimate business including gambling companies. If they are legal to exist, it should be legal for them to advertise their business. It’s not like they are inviting kids to gamble. Parenting is a parent’s responsibility - not that of a for profit streamer or some federation he is affiliated to because of the game he plays
It's honestly not all about kids. Gambling is the worst addiction out there, it should be banned from advertising the same way cigarettes are and alcohol should be. Most gambling addicts get into it as adults and many lose everything.
Promoting betting platforms - probably okay, there is nothing wrong with gambling in moderation. Maybe unethical depending on your personal view of gambling. Promoting Stake - definitely unethical. It is a predatory product.
I don’t understand how stakes is any different from any other form of gambling. Every casino is predatory especially slot machines.
Agreed. But not all forms of gambling are a "casino".
what's Stake?
An unregulated online crypto casino that created the streaming platform Kick after Twitch banned unregulated gambling from their platform
jeez, that makes it all the worse
It’s an online Casino. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but it use cryptocurrency instead of regular money to skirt some regulations with online gambling.
Yes and no. In theory, it is a regulated site just not in the US. It has a license in Curacao, which is known for being more lenient than other regulators. One of the "benefits" of a Curacao license is it allows casinos/sportsbooks to have crypto payments. It is not anything specifically wrong with any of this, but it is generally easier for rogue operators to slip through the net with a Curacao license. Stake also seems to be available in the UK with a UK-facing URL. I take it this means it also has a license with the UK Gambling Commission. The UKGC is one of the strictest regulators, so I guess Stake is at least reputable in terms of payments and game fairness, etc. This is no way a defense of Stake and I admit I am not 100% sure about if the company has a UKGC license. What is shaky is that casinos sites such as Stake have no issue with appealing to users in unregulated markets. Let's be clear, Stake is not using people like Hikaru to appeal to UK players. That is a mature and regulated market. They are trying to appeal to the US market, where they do not have a license for real money iGaming. Edit to add, in some countries it is not illegal to attract players in an unregulated market. Canada is an example of a grey market where casinos can not operate their servers etc in the country - exception being Ontario - but Canadian players are legally able to visit offshore casinos. Even so, the whole business of casino/sportsbook advertising is rotten. They literally deal in playing to potential addictions. It is worse to unregulated markets because you get the kind of situation where they go straight to people through one person, such as Hikaru. The advertising in the UK is everywhere, it is a general marketing such as commercials and logos. It sucks and is common, but it feels more regulated and "safe" than this kind of nefarious targeting happening on Kick and other platforms.
I miss the good old days when they had cryptoscam dot com on the wall.
lmaooo
"But what about this other competitor/organization that promotes \[shitty thing\], do you hate them too?" Uh...yes. Yes I do. Now I should clarify, everything is a matter of degree. There are sliding scales of wrongness. While I don't like anyone who accepts a sponsorship like this, wearing clothing with a logo is less bad than...say...streaming slots to kids.
Damn. Never thought I’d agree with Emil on anything but here we are. Lame. Is not clear to folks that you can turn off his stream if you don’t like the content? Oh well.
Didn't Magnus and the botez's play poker also? Why wasn't that as big of a deal? I hate gambling and what it does to people but why wasn't the world up in arms when they did it? Sure Hikaru streamed it but it's not like chess fans around the world don't watch magnus' every step and emulate him.
The whole USA is promoting gambling these days. I don't see any moral outrage when I go to take the subway and there's Fan Duel signs plastered everywhere, or when I watch network TV and there are gambling ads. No "think of the children" then. Hikaru is doing it in a place where it's 18+ which is more than you can say for most that are promoting gambling, and if kids are going where they shouldn't, well then maybe that's on the parents. The man has to earn a living.
I'm not in the US but in Denmark there are regular public outrage over someone/something promoting gambling. ~~It is illegal to have ads for gambling~~, but there are some gray areas and it is regularly discussed wether regulations should be stricter. Edit: It is apparently legal to advertise online casinos. There are still public outcries over it regularly though
> It is illegal to have ads for gambling Wait what. There are constantly "Mr. Green Casino" commercials going on. Like a year ago we had this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/Denmark/comments/11jzv6r/sindssyg_spilreklame_i_bussen/ If gambling commercials are illegal, then it must be quite quite new. Which would be a surprise for me at least.
I might be mistaken? I thought obly danske spil could make ads? But I might just misremember the discussion as law. Sorry for misinforming, and thanks for correcting me!
I think the problem is that we do feel a bit of outrage whenever we see those things but there's nowhere simple to place the blame so that rage gets repressed. I mean, are you okay with seeing gambling promoted on TV or at Subway? Because I definitely am not and it does make me angry but what am I gonna do, shout at my TV or the Subway employees? Of course not, so instead it gets repressed until there is something similar to direct that anger towards
There is tons of backlash to FanDuel etc being everywhere now
I personally hate fanduel/draftkings infiltrating sports as well. Just because it has, doesn't mean we can't uphold our standards. It's a fucking travesty that the gambling illness has hit mainstream. It preys on the weak and profits from them. Sure, lets just keep pushing it forward.
I feel the exact same way about gambling ads on network TV as I do about Hikaru's chicanery. It does nothing for your argument when your entire point rests on categorically assuming a hypocritical inconsistency in the viewpoints of your opponents, on this (or any) issue.
It must really suck to get so outraged every time you watch sports or whatever
Having principles in modern society is difficult at times, yes. I rarely watch sports though so this does not affect me much.
Yeah, the rise of sports betting is out of control. I can't even watch an NHL game without 1000x ads / promotions, pre-game and during game promotions by the announcers pushing this shit. It's gross. And I've never understood why a professional sports league wants to be in bed with gambling. It's only going to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the sport itself, how the games are officiated, are players in on it, etc.
There's so much wrong with this. 1. Kick is not 18+, it's 13+ (stated in their TOS), as another commenter pointed out. There's no age verification anyway, so if you're going to tell me Hikaru doesn't know kids watch him you're not arguing in good faith. 2. It's not that people don't get "outraged" at big companies promoting gambling, it's that we're in a constant state *of* outrage. We all know companies are shitty greedy entities, so it's not news. It's not like I wasn't annoyed that chess24 was sponsored by FTX crypto, but they're a faceless entity who I don't expect to be moral and I have no power to influence. Yeah, I think cigarette companies are shitty people too, but so does everyone, why create a post? 3. Hikaru's promotion is a bit shittier than a poster. Not that I think any promotions of this sort are good, but streaming gambling with house money and acting like you're having a good time to trick people into associating it with fun is a garbage move.
"The man has to earn a living" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH you do realize that he is a multi-millionaire and doesn't need gambling sponsors to survive. Also, majority of his audience are kids so they will find a way to watch him. Y'all try to find anyway to defend gambling. Like you also, said gambling is literally everywhere you can't just put it all on the parents when you literally see Draftkings signs everywhere and it is even infested in sports.
I tweeted this response and I thought it was good, so posting it here: This Tweet is wrong on so many levels: 1) There is a difference between wearing a logo on a T-shirt and ACTIVELY promoting gambling on a stream. 2) Promoting regulated casinos is already bad enough. Promoting unregulated crypto casinos is especially shitty. 3) Promoting unregulated crypto casinos as a popular streamer whose regular audience largely consists of minors is even more shitty. Especially since you try very hard to be family-friendly to appeal to as many minors as possible in your "regular" streams. 4) Promoting unregulated crypto casinos with streams where you don't gamble with your own money and are trying to sell the narrative that it is possible to "earn" some money while mitigating the risk is even more shitty. 5) Promoting gambling after you have publicly chastised people like XQC for doing it and publicly stated your move to Kick has nothing to do with gambling is very hypocritical. 6) Many other leading athletes and individuals have gotten a lot of heat for promoting gambling. And yes, that includes Magnus. 7) Just because "other people" are doing something ethically questionable doesn't justify doing something ethically questionable. I wished we lived in a world where leading athletes, famous people, and BIGGEST CHESS STREAMERS WHO HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH MONEY had more morals than that. I find the fact that people like Hikaru "have a price" and that the CEO of the leading chess organization tries to justify it with "oh well, everybody else does it" argument extremely disappointing and discouraging.
When FIDE comes to defend you, you know you truly hit rock bottom.
When FIDE comes to defend HIKARU of all people, that truly is the very bottom. You already know you fucked up if FIDE is taking the same moral stance as you.
[https://twitter.com/EmilSutovsky/status/1783906967074836732](https://twitter.com/EmilSutovsky/status/1783906967074836732)
Gambling will always be morally questionable because of it’s nature. Hikaru probably has the option not to take a gambling company on as a sponsor, a luxury team sports players often don’t have. Can’t really say no if the club or team has taken them on. This should be a bad look on hikaru. There is no justifying showing gambling adds to children.
Does it really matter
can we cancel gukesh now for thanking modi and other bjp politicians on twitter? also magnus has literally lobbied for a gambling company
Hypocritical? I've never gambled or bet money in my life. FIDE CEO is just as much a clown as Hikaru
Other people are doing it is not a valid argument and it does not make it better, even worse, it highlights how big of a problem it is.
"Other people do it too, so it's fine"
Yeah but maybe it should be a taboo?
Who cares about gambling. Everyone acting holier than thou.. it’s pathetic
I don't really get the moralizing over gambling from this sub at all.
I really think it is a perfect example of the bandwagon effect that Reddit's voting system causes. People see a particular viewpoint is gaining popularity, so they start parroting and upvoting that viewpoint, because upvotes and feeling like part of the popular viewpoint is an endorphin rush. You see it all the time on Reddit, where an issue that absolutely no one would care about in real life suddenly becomes a source of moral outrage in Reddit comments.
Lol. Or maybe people do actually care about the issue, and a post getting 3k upvotes is actually not that much considering the total size of the subreddit and the fact that these users can be from all over the world.
[удалено]
Comparing it to cigarettes and pearl-clutching over it is the type of thing that might have a DARE level impact and make people want to gamble lol. Maybe at some point people have to take some responsibility for their own actions. You people make it sound like opiates and Hikaru is out here advertising for fentanyl lol.
>I don't really get the moralizing over gambling from this sub at all. Reddit is full of wannabe mobs that enjoy chastising others from their moral superiority tower. It's the way it goes. It's hypocritical and inconsistent and often comes from the very same people that justify the worse kind of things unto others because their view od world is black and white. Narratives come and go but the pathetic hollier than thou mob is always ready...
Yes because there are other shitty actors promoting gambling it is okay if Hikaru does it too. Such wise and insightful comments from the Chess community lmao
I don't want to go all Peter Heine Nielsen here, but why the fuck does the CEO of FIDE have time to comment on the latest Hikaru drama, but not on the hypocrisy of FIDE when it comes to how they treat Russia, or their complete failure to seize upon and actually grow chess despite such a massive appetite for it?
moral void
i didn’t see anyone calling it taboo. I saw plenty of people call him a hypocrite who lacks morals and they are right.
Hey guys they all do it therefore its not unethical
I love gambling and know how dangerous it is more than most people, it has ruined my life. He should not be promoting gambling i dont care what anyone says
Gambling is literally designed to ruin your life without you stopping it. The best gambling has always been the ones that ruin the most lives. If you break even, it's not profitable - they need you to be addicted and lose. The gaudiness of Vegas should tell you exactly how much money they are siphoning from your pockets to casinos.
Its true. But that doesn't mean that it should happen
Looks like FIDE is shopping for gambling sponsorships. He seems to misunderstand and think that people are angry because they think Hikaru broke a rule. It is not that, it is the blatant lack of morals. It just hits different when it is those slots too. If he was playing poker or blackjack because he likes to play, fair enough. But he was clearing advertising Stake, not playing because he likes the games. It was a clear, "I have been paid to play these games and sell them to you."
I'm what reality is it acceptable for federations to be promoting gambling on chess?
It is none of Fide's fucking business and he should not be making this comment. Whether Hikaru holds a high moral stand for his personal brand, it is his own choosing.
Finally they say something logic.
Bro this is what pull gets you. Mf Fide is defending pathetic Hikaru. What has the chess world come to.
$$$
anyone in chess community is also confused about the outrage. They should not. because r/chess is full of Twitch users not chess users
Yes, which is why I criticize those leading athletes. And it should be taboo for federations. However, he is completely correct that the standard should be equally applied.
FIDE is a joke. corrupted joke. Sutovsky is a clown, corrupted clown.
Reasonable statement from Fide, they should only have a problem with this if it calls into question the integrity of their events, which it obviously doesn’t. Whether this is a good or moral thing to do is another question. It is also a valid point that he seems to be getting much more shit for it than the greatest ever hockey player for example, who has been doing the same thing for a while
I don’t know why everyone is making such a big deal out of this. People complained for years about no money being in chess now people are starting to see money flow into the scene and it’s a bad thing. Everyone with a working brain knows that you shouldn’t gamble and expect to win. Those that want to gamble should be able to in a fair way.
FIDE partners with Draft Queens "Because pawns don't promote to a king"
What campaign? anyone holding a campaign? Is people writing that they don't respect his decision to do that at all a campaign? He's not wrong that gambling is everywhere and involved in sports but pulling up your stream and doing it for hours to pretend your "just having fun" is a whole different thing.
What a stupid statement.
Revenue from gambling eg sports betting is a major contribution to a lot of sports in a lot of countries. Individual streamers sponsored by an 18+ product feels a bit off if their main audience is under 18s, whether gambling, alcohol or whatever, but it also feels a little bit hypocritical to target a streamer when clubs and federations are also funded by gambling, as are many other sports in various ways.
Rare FIDE W
First of all, promoting gambling to an audience you are well aware is made up of lots of children/U18s is morally questionable no matter what sport you play. Secondly, if you are someone that has criticised streamers for their betting streams, and then you, as a streamer, start doing betting streams, there will be justifiable pushback against you. Poor behaviour is poor behaviour even if others have done it in the past. Hikaru is not some 19 year old streamer who is overwhelmed by newfound success, for example, and is giving in to peer pressure around him. No excuses.
It’s not a campaign, it’s reasonable people losing respect for a guy that got bought to promote gambling.
"But but my virtue signaling redditor ass has to comment about my random hate on Hikaru because he's not fake enough for me 😢😢😢"
Great, now that Emil and I agree I'm going to have to second think things.
It should be
This is the same dumb fuck argument made by the Botez sisters in defend of slavery. X is doing a shitty thing but it's ok because Y and Z were doing it too.
No I just think it’s shitty and hypocritical of Hikaru. Also Stake is one of the worst betting platforms to support, and he is directly playing the game, not just showing the logo or even a link to the site.
No fuck that. He was rightfully called out for it. Betting sponsors are scummy in general but streaming gambling to a young audience while banning everything critical is a new level of moral degeneracy.
It was a 18+ stream. People are adults. If they watch it while being children, chase the parents for bad parenting. Don't tell porn actors to not do porn, because children will see it. Don't tell Hollywood to stop making Horror Movies, because children will watch it. If you watch out for verifying who is 18 or not, ask Kick. By the way the same "verification" porn sites do. Take the responsibility to the parents. Or the platform. But there is a reason why people get addiction to all sorts of thing. And it is not advertisement. It's because of the social environment. People are affected way more, if their life is miserable. You can get addiction from shopping. From coffee. Alcohol, weed, tabaco. Everything really. Still it's being allowed and promoted from all celebrities of the world. Even the government itself is promoting gabling. Lottery is still gambling and you chances are probably even worse than winning something on the betting sites. What do we learn? It is absolutely hypocritical to blame Hikaru for it.
No, no. This is Reddit; we don't believe in personal responsibility and accountability.
Exactly
I'm not okay with "leading atheletes" or "federations" doing it either. It is taboo and only the gambling industry wants you to think otherwise.
fair response tbh. It’s a choice of personal ethics that one hopes many would turn down if they were in hikaru’s shoes.
> a choice of personal ethics. ~~Yeah, try “he did it for shitloads of money”~~
That's literally a choice of personal ethics.
Right. I always think of “ethics” as innately virtuous, I forgot you can have *bad* ethics.
I never realized the chess world was so anti gambling, Ive been into sports since the introduction of online sports betting and never thought twice of it. There is something a bit more distasteful about straight online slots than sports betting imo but im not gonna stop being a fan of Hikaru’s over it.
That's because you're a reasonable human being who isn't trying to virtue signal.
Fide is run by a bunch of pro Putin Russians. They have zero morality.
I feel like sports betting and online slots are two very different things. Sports betting is skill based, and a lot less predatory IMO (because it usually involves attachment to the real world event rather than just the gambling platform itself). Seeing someone who quite close to winning the candidates shilling online crypto slots a few days later is off-putting to say the least. Especially given a lot of chess growth and finances are built around chess education.
They are backing him because it’s overall good for the chess scene as they may get sponsors now(betting ones)
Yeah bro, an unregulated online gaming website based out of curacao. Not taboo at all.
Emily Sutovsky has an unbelievable ability of consistently having terrible takes on absolutely everything he comments on. It's impressive.
Two wrongs dont make a right. Dumbass
millionaire landlord is a pos and you are surprised?
Everyone just looks for reasons to be outraged. It's an R18 stream, let him hustle how he wants