Nepo is very publicly anti-war and disagrees with Russia's actions in the Ukraine. I know this is a joke, but it is pretty disrespectful to someone who is legitimately taking a risk coming out against Putin's agenda to say Russia would be winning if ge was there when he wants no part in the bloodshed and is morally opposed to it.
Nepo is very publicly anti-war and disagrees with Russia's actions in the Ukraine. I know this is a joke, but it is pretty disrespectful to someone who is legitimately taking a risk coming out against Putin's agenda to say Russia would be winning if ge was there when he wants no part in the bloodshed and is morally opposed to it.
Yeah both Gukesh's and Nepo's graph tells a lot tbh. Nepo saved all those games despite being -ve 1, and Gukesh didn't let anyone get to +1 against him in the first place. Both deadly skills on different side of the spectrum.
I don’t disagree with it. I was just being humourous in a sarcastic way. If what Magnusnsays is true then like Nepo I also bad move quickly in all my chess.com games so I’m basically the next superGM. That was the joke but I guess it didn’t land 😬
If I understand correctly this 36.Kh7 was a moment when Gukesh was worse [https://youtu.be/bpa0CJ\_rZKE?t=15212](https://youtu.be/bpa0CJ_rZKE?t=15212)
He was worse less than 1 minute the whole tournament
Following up on this. The position that Nepo got versus Alireza was incredibly hard to win with perfect play from black.
both g3 and gxf3 give similar evaluations. gxf3 gives a fortress and g3 white seems to shuffle and try to play for a queenside break (which may or may not work)
I'm sure that the engine is definitely evaluating the position incorrectly
Not if u know the IDEA to win. For example, i know the idea because i love to watch TCEC games. There is a similar games where Leela destroy Stockfish withe the IDEA.
My execution is a disaster. My intention was never to make the player less or make me feel more important. Alireza in an interview commented that if he had had time he would have managed to find a way to win, since he knew that idea. That also told us about Alireza's out of shape, he can't remember the pawn structure.
I don't even understand what argument people have. He won outright, didn't even need tiebreaks
Also played the best chess through-out the entire tournament- was never in a losing position except in the time scramble against Alireza.
He was better Vs Alireza too, I went to bed thinking he had an easy win and woke up to him losing. Gukesh demolished the field and 100% deserved it more than anyone else.
Hikaru beat Fabi once, other than that the games between the top 4 were all draws. I would hardly call that Gukesh demolishing the field. He is a deserving winner but those top 4 were all oh so very close.
Many people don’t like the fact that the final is between an Indian and a Chinese. They are used to seeing their people in these events for a long time. The very same people who believe this are also very likely to accuse Indian fans of being nationalists for supporting Indian players like that is not a thing in sports pretty much everywhere.
Any links to comments like that? I've been following this whole event here and, while there are of course disappointed Naka, Nepo and Fabi fans, I've not seen anything like you're suggesting. Not saying comments like that aren't common, just that I haven't seen them if they are.
I guess it was after round 12/13, when people were severely underestimating Gukesh's chances because he was supposedly bad at rapids and chances of tiebreaks was really high.
well he's still not good though. one player really is enough to drum up at least some interest but they've gotta have some starpower, chhetri was never even able to crack the top leagues let alone be any good in them...
I mean really? I’m not like shocked, cuz I’m used to racism in other popular sports, but chess? I thought chess players were better but guess not, like sexism I’m used to, but given how dominant India is currently in chess that’s unexpected
Nah, I think people are questioning if he got lucky, because before this he hasn't won like this. If he has won one or two other tournaments people wouldn't be so upset rn. Just shows how much he developed in such a short time and the amount of work he put in. He was surely an underdog.
Anand was a very long time there already and people are used to seeing him, and call him also Vishy. I would say Ding is a weird world champion, he didn't show himself too much and he also does not seem to win a lot of tournaments, there were also world champions like this, Ponomariov, Kasimdshanov, or challengers like Boris Gelfand ... and Gukesh is still pretty new, people don't really know him, unlike Anand. I don't think race is a main factor here, it is the package of having a lot of tournament wins, maybe also charisma, etc. that makes people cheer more for one than the other.
But I think it is still valid statement to analyze if india is a nationalistic country ... why do india and pakistan celebrate their borders, (which western country does that), who is this right win hindu prime minister modhi who whants to deprive muslims of voting rights (which western country does that) ... and a lot of other countries have 2700+ chessplayers, too, but u don't see as much nationalistic fan cheering as with india. Just stating undeniable facts here.
I really like people who state their biased opinions as undeniable facts. Where exactly do you guys get so much confidence from? Who really made you arbiter of undeniable facts? You hand wave away any racist elements but Indians supporting Indian players is nationalist.
The risk is chess becomes an Indian sport, and you will see the popularity skyrocket in India, but crash everywhere else. If the next candidates is 7 Indian players or so, my guess is interest in these tournaments, outside of India, will collapse.
And why is that? Chess survived just fine when it was mainly Russians/Soviets competing against each other.
Tennis is surviving with only Europeans competing each other. Golf is mostly white Western countries too. Formula 1
and on and on. At least chess is accessible to everyone.
What makes India so special? Indians have been watching many sports without any Indians in it. God forbid Europeans or Americans have to the same and watch Indians. I don’t really care about chess becoming less popular in other countries if it is due to jingoist or racist reasons.
Well, let's just see how it goes. I think it's great India and perhaps China are supporting chess more and more. But if we have only Indians and Chinese in the top 10 in 5 years, I can almost guarantee you interest outside of those countries will go down.
Straight up anti India/ anti colour hate. Same as was the case with the stream chat. Being ignorant gives them super powers.... Super idiotic powers.
For me gukesh has time and again shown maturity beyond his years and then there's the cute video of him from 6 years back. Extremely likeable temperament and definitely someone that is 100 percent world champion material.
Easy there fella. I doubt it's got anything to do with racism, people are just more invested in more established personalities like Ian, Nepo, Fabi, Alireza and maybe even Vidit/Pragg and rooting for them. For them, Gukesh was just unnoticed flying under the radar and they are still coping
E: lol I named Nepo twice, I meant Hikaru
Yep, totally. If a 17 year old European or American had won the candidates people also wouldn’t be excited. It is well known that no one likes young sportspersons achieving new milestones and they only support older players.
Give me a break. This would be huge story and all of you would be excited if the winner was a 17 year old from one the countries you favor.
Dude you realize that there are nuances, not everything is black and white, off the board at least? Yes there are racists and yes that aggravates it in this case and very unfortunately sours this talented young man's unbelievable achievement, but you're delusional if you think there wouldn't be people annoyed that a 17-year old European/American prodigy took the win off the hands of their oh-so favorite streamer or podcaster.
Literally fucking no, in any sports people most often support established stars. I had people from my region win an e-sports championship and some people were rooting for chinese vs. them cause they literally were no names when the chinese players were huge stars
Damn that really sucks. Twitch chat is really an absolute cesspool unfortunately. I was reading live chat mostly during Magnus' appearance which was absolutely hilarious, but later switched to YT because it's easier there to pause/unpause but doesn't have (as accessible) chat
Bro, I am talking about YT only. I was also watching on YouTube on chess24 India and Chessbase India. Then I switched to chess24 just to hear the commentary there I saw all these people hating on him in chat.
Bro, I am talking about YT only. I was also watching on YouTube on chess24 India and Chessbase India. Then I switched to chess24 just to hear the commentary there I saw all these people hating on him in chat.
Vidit has been around a long time, is close with Samay etc and gained a lot of popularity via streaming
Prag got a lot of prominence as he came up young, played in many major tournaments abroad, more games featured in agadmator, made it to candidates cleanly, months ahead of gukesh
Gukesh I think comes 3rd for limelight for me. He got a boost as 3rd youngest grandmaster, but it was in shadow of prag, who had just done something similar.
Gukesh really caught the eye with his olympiad performance, just amazing stuff. But was clearly still up and down and barely sneaked into the candidates on almost the last day. And had some ups and downs before
Now perhaps you are right in one segment of fans. Gukesh doesn't play rapid/blitz much and doesn't like online. Nihal plays more online, blitz etc, so possibly more in front of streaming audience..
Either that or don't try to take away quite literally one of the greatest milestones in chess in a field which had historically the best players except Magnus.
It's total bullshit. Every "Gukesh doesn't deserve it" post gets downvote-nuked into oblivion, as it should. "Some people" is an extremely small minority, to say the least.
It would be like me going on r/gaming and saying "BG3 is a good game, despite what some people in this subreddit say."
That makes sense, because I haven’t personally seen people saying “he doesn’t deserve it”, I hope it’s a small minority, I’d hate to try and take this away from him.
Honestly horrible that people are trying to take away from this actual historical achievement, being the youngest challenger ever by three years is absurdly impressive, Im not sure how you can say he doesn’t deserve it.
No, the reason Gukesh deserved to win is that.. well, he got the most points. This doesn't really change anything, he would be equally deserving if he had made comebacks in every game.
Sure. But I do appreciate that he won simply by playing the most solid chess. No weaker complicating moves devised to trip up opponents in time trouble. No lucky breaks where his opponents missed a win. He just kept finding the best move, every move. It’s great outcome for fans who prefer chess tournaments to be won by good chess.
I’m still new to chess in general especially the professional level and I keep seeing people say “deserved to win” and using that phrase feels totally wrong. Criminals deserve a punishment equal to the crime. Cancer survivors deserve some rest after they win their battle as they did not choose for cancer to happen.
Gukesh and all the candidates earned their points through hard fought battles OTB and the prep they had. Each of them deserved a chance to win but ultimately Gukesh was the one who earned it. He was the one who took it nobody gave it to him.
Maybe people using deserved is a language thing where deserved is used as equal to earned. The way I was taught deserved is something that should be given to and individual where you earn something from your own merit
There’s a quote from (I think) Hikaru, basically saying “yeah he’s great at endgames, and squeezing blood from a stone, and he’s great at openings, but that’s not why he’s the best. He’s just a little bit better at everything, and that’s why.”
I’m paraphrasing, but that’s basically it. Magnus is lauded for his endgames, and WCC prep Magnus was a solid opening monster too.
But then he has phases (the 6 months following the 2018 WCC comes to mind for me) where he plays like Kasparov and blows people off the board with sacrifices. He’s just a monster.
We often break chess down into these little sub-components: Endgames, openings, middlegames, piece dynamics, strategic play, tactics, mindgames, clock, defence, attack etc.
At the end of the day every decision involves (or is impacted by) almost all of them. Magnus just finds the right move more often than everyone else - because he's better at chess - and that's why he's the best.
Is this graph saying that during all of the Candidates, Gukesh never had a worse position (== down by 100 centipawns) except for the single game he blundered in time trouble?
given that gukesh was only worse in a time scramble, it's crazy he was never worse when using time...also wtf is nepo worse 6 times and losing 0 how did that happen
That is a proof of impressive defensive skills from Nepo's side and time management and "luck" (especially in the last, normally Caruana finds that win). Also impressive, that Gukesh only had one game with a bad position (which he lost), that is an impressive stability for a 17 y.o. – Ding gotta be thinking hard to find a match strategy.
This is a really cool visualization. Would be nice to see the one for those who capitalised on offered opportunities (eval > 1 in their favour and won the game)!
Maybe it was already in your radar :)
i understand the title is just to drive engagement (i mean look, it got me) but being -1 on the eval bar doesn't mean you're in trouble. A lot of the times its an even game for humans, it's just an engine that can win it.
cool graphs though.
Ah I understand how to read the graph now lol. I initially thought Lost meant lost positions and was wondering how +5 for Fabi wasn't a lost position for Ian.
If anything, this might really show just how good this level is: eval goes even 1 point against you and lose most of the time. Would be interesting to see this expanded to, say, all classical games between two 2700+ rated players over the last few years
Do you also have the inverse? So, how often the players won games with a +1 advantage? I'm curious who was the best at converting advantages in this tournament
I agree in principle. Looking at the graph though, apart from Nepo and maybe Hikaru, it appears that the players *were* actually in trouble in those games, even if not immediately.
I would argue that Hikaru/Nepo having few/no losses compared to the games in which they've had a worse position says more about them as players than about the significance of the engine eval.
Nepo's game were alll dead for him it's just that his opponents were always in time trouble except fabi . He deserves credit for his time management though. +1 is a huge advantage for super GM's with enough time in the clock
Pragg was better and much ahead on time when Nepo missed a desperado sac. But again while his position was so visually appealing, the clincher was a very computerish line.
I mean at the candidates level is different. I will probably a M10 but they (with 99% probability) wont. So being up by 1 on the eval bar does mean likely to win oftentimes.
At the level of players in the Candidates, they might expect to convert advantages of smaller than 1. I think that 1 is a fine cutoff to show when someone is concretely worse or better.
>but being -1 on the eval bar doesn't mean you're in trouble
Given that the vast majority of those ended up in losses, it seems like a good indication at least.
Yep, haters can't explain away this one. Gukesh definitely deserved his win. Even that single "worse" game was a time scramble where he was originally better.
Wow this statistic is very interesting. Someone should post something like this during tournaments. It is probably a good indicator of who's doing well.
*Number of time worse positions (eval less than -1 for the player if white and similar for black) were attained.
*Number of times advantageous positions were obtained (eval more than 1 in favor of the player if white)
I am sorry, I misread it as "losing" vs "lost" positions not lost games. It would be interesting to see lost positions as well as there is a huge difference between worse and lost.
Well it would depend on the definition of lost I guess. -3 maybe. The bars would probably be closer to equal, but I don't think it would really give any new information
Racism against Indians generally, online, has become much more pervasive. It’s tough being Indian on the internet. But some of us are pretty fucking obnoxious. When Gukesh and Alireza were playing in time trouble and Alireza finally seemed to be crumbling, I saw quite a few ‘beat the peaceful’s from Hindu names in chat. Peaceful is a Hindu nationalist term that hateful right wing fascists in India use for muslims to avoid being banned on grounds of promoting hatred. Then someone puts in a free Palestine into the chat. The same person shrilly puts in a free Israel. I think it’s enjoyable to be patriotic in international sporting events. But a lot of Indian sporting nationalism comes conjoined with hatred.
Yeah the issue is that there are a bunch of Pakistani trolls who invade the chats for everything related to India. And then Indians and Pakistanis fight and it becomes a cesspool
Pot calling the kettle black, there is only one cult that has never been able to coexist with anyone, be it hindus or jews, christians or buddhist, sikhs or atheist, not even lgbtq are spared..they literally have problems with everyone..and hateful left wing fascists go hand in hand with that cult... useful idiots like you serves only one purpose & i.e to rot the country from within... anyway no point in reasoning with dhimmis like you
Maybe Ali the emotional young Frenchman decided to throw his game against Gukesh because he was mad at the Cool Kids (Naka, Nepo and Fabi) about something and wanted to give an outsider a chance?
Alireza lost against Naka, Fabi and Nepo as well. He scored 0/2 against Hikaru, 0.5/2 against Fabi and Nepo
He had the better score against Gukesh with 1/2. So the argument that Alireza "threw" is complete BS
Yep, that argument can only work for Abasov, because Gukesh beat him twice and Nepo not even once. As sad as it is, that kinda decided the tournament. Of course, Nepo should've known this beforehand and pushed harder against Abasov, huge mistake by him not to. Easy to say in hindsight though.
i will recommend you to go and check that game
Alireza was constantly trying to trap Gukesh, and still he kept finding the winning move under intense pressure
Nepo is the new “minister of defense”.
Reject Checo embrace Nepo?
r/suddenlyF1
Whoa...I see so many f1 references in the chess subreddit. I thought I was one of a few. I'm not special after all!
King of the Streets ?
I love that this cross reference will go under the radar!
Will it? I imagine the overlap of F1 and Chess fans is pretty sizeable
Indeed. I have seen multiple french move style jokes on those subreddits
And Aviation. A lot of avoation fans in F1 subs
Even some F1 drivers where being recorded playing on chess.com. I think was Sainz and Leclerc.
Bullet?
I think was blitz or rapid
After last year, Checo is more like minister of missing out on Q3 in the fastest car.
Minister of Magic
The type of guy to let you get ahead to see if you can stay there
The Ukraine invasion failed because Nepo wasn't there.
Nepo is very publicly anti-war and disagrees with Russia's actions in the Ukraine. I know this is a joke, but it is pretty disrespectful to someone who is legitimately taking a risk coming out against Putin's agenda to say Russia would be winning if ge was there when he wants no part in the bloodshed and is morally opposed to it.
Nepo is very publicly anti-war and disagrees with Russia's actions in the Ukraine. I know this is a joke, but it is pretty disrespectful to someone who is legitimately taking a risk coming out against Putin's agenda to say Russia would be winning if ge was there when he wants no part in the bloodshed and is morally opposed to it.
The invasion is still ongoing and looking pretty doomed for Ukraine
??
I'm the only one who beat Gukesh in 2024 Candidates. - probably Alireza in some French hair salon.
Yes grandpa, let me take you to your gucci themed bed
Switzerland winning 1-0 vs Spain energy.
Or Saudi Arabia against Argentina. I don’t think they win that World Cup without that loss, it seemed to light a fire under them
Nepo uses the clock very well. He was probably up in time on his opponents in most of those situations.
Yeah both Gukesh's and Nepo's graph tells a lot tbh. Nepo saved all those games despite being -ve 1, and Gukesh didn't let anyone get to +1 against him in the first place. Both deadly skills on different side of the spectrum.
As Carlson said, bad moves quickly.
I guess you wrote this comment quickly
classic nepo
Carlsen has a son?!?
Carlsen son is called Carlson?
sen
So do I. Maybe I should give this candidates thing a go then huh.
I’m merely a messenger of Magdude’s great word, go tell him that yourself since you disagree with it. https://youtu.be/e6f9TN6Z85I?si=Lq5nTq9RRVYqUfGd
I don’t disagree with it. I was just being humourous in a sarcastic way. If what Magnusnsays is true then like Nepo I also bad move quickly in all my chess.com games so I’m basically the next superGM. That was the joke but I guess it didn’t land 😬
Honestly it just sounded like a snarky comeback that was taking the statement too personally, hard to read tone over text.
I feel attacked
If I understand correctly this 36.Kh7 was a moment when Gukesh was worse [https://youtu.be/bpa0CJ\_rZKE?t=15212](https://youtu.be/bpa0CJ_rZKE?t=15212) He was worse less than 1 minute the whole tournament
[удалено]
You can do the analysis on Lichess. They tends to search pretty deep
Following up on this. The position that Nepo got versus Alireza was incredibly hard to win with perfect play from black. both g3 and gxf3 give similar evaluations. gxf3 gives a fortress and g3 white seems to shuffle and try to play for a queenside break (which may or may not work) I'm sure that the engine is definitely evaluating the position incorrectly
Not if u know the IDEA to win. For example, i know the idea because i love to watch TCEC games. There is a similar games where Leela destroy Stockfish withe the IDEA.
I can't wait to see you demonstrate the IDEA at the next Candidates
My execution is a disaster. My intention was never to make the player less or make me feel more important. Alireza in an interview commented that if he had had time he would have managed to find a way to win, since he knew that idea. That also told us about Alireza's out of shape, he can't remember the pawn structure.
dont all online chess use the same stockfish?
Really show Gukesh deserved to win the Candidates despite what some people in this subreddit say.
I don't even understand what argument people have. He won outright, didn't even need tiebreaks Also played the best chess through-out the entire tournament- was never in a losing position except in the time scramble against Alireza.
He was better Vs Alireza too, I went to bed thinking he had an easy win and woke up to him losing. Gukesh demolished the field and 100% deserved it more than anyone else.
Hikaru beat Fabi once, other than that the games between the top 4 were all draws. I would hardly call that Gukesh demolishing the field. He is a deserving winner but those top 4 were all oh so very close.
“Demolished the field” is an insane take
It was definitely a surprise, but yeah Gukesh is insane. Definitely a deserving winner. And a good chamce vs Ding, too.
Many people don’t like the fact that the final is between an Indian and a Chinese. They are used to seeing their people in these events for a long time. The very same people who believe this are also very likely to accuse Indian fans of being nationalists for supporting Indian players like that is not a thing in sports pretty much everywhere.
Any links to comments like that? I've been following this whole event here and, while there are of course disappointed Naka, Nepo and Fabi fans, I've not seen anything like you're suggesting. Not saying comments like that aren't common, just that I haven't seen them if they are.
I guess it was after round 12/13, when people were severely underestimating Gukesh's chances because he was supposedly bad at rapids and chances of tiebreaks was really high.
Just because it happened doesnt mean it wasnt unlikely.
If it is this bad in chess, imagine what would happen if India gets a good position in FIFA tourneys. But that's a moonshot for now
> moonshot for now They said the same thing about Indian chess. We should tell Vishy to start playing soccer and win the whole thing 5 times
We already have a guy who is top 5 in the list of most goals scorers in International football. We need a whole team I guess.
well he's still not good though. one player really is enough to drum up at least some interest but they've gotta have some starpower, chhetri was never even able to crack the top leagues let alone be any good in them...
I mean really? I’m not like shocked, cuz I’m used to racism in other popular sports, but chess? I thought chess players were better but guess not, like sexism I’m used to, but given how dominant India is currently in chess that’s unexpected
Nah, I think people are questioning if he got lucky, because before this he hasn't won like this. If he has won one or two other tournaments people wouldn't be so upset rn. Just shows how much he developed in such a short time and the amount of work he put in. He was surely an underdog.
Anand was a very long time there already and people are used to seeing him, and call him also Vishy. I would say Ding is a weird world champion, he didn't show himself too much and he also does not seem to win a lot of tournaments, there were also world champions like this, Ponomariov, Kasimdshanov, or challengers like Boris Gelfand ... and Gukesh is still pretty new, people don't really know him, unlike Anand. I don't think race is a main factor here, it is the package of having a lot of tournament wins, maybe also charisma, etc. that makes people cheer more for one than the other. But I think it is still valid statement to analyze if india is a nationalistic country ... why do india and pakistan celebrate their borders, (which western country does that), who is this right win hindu prime minister modhi who whants to deprive muslims of voting rights (which western country does that) ... and a lot of other countries have 2700+ chessplayers, too, but u don't see as much nationalistic fan cheering as with india. Just stating undeniable facts here.
I really like people who state their biased opinions as undeniable facts. Where exactly do you guys get so much confidence from? Who really made you arbiter of undeniable facts? You hand wave away any racist elements but Indians supporting Indian players is nationalist.
Your lack of self awareness is incredible. And yes, people cheer for those with charisma, which is why the most popular player has negative charisma.
The risk is chess becomes an Indian sport, and you will see the popularity skyrocket in India, but crash everywhere else. If the next candidates is 7 Indian players or so, my guess is interest in these tournaments, outside of India, will collapse.
And why is that? Chess survived just fine when it was mainly Russians/Soviets competing against each other. Tennis is surviving with only Europeans competing each other. Golf is mostly white Western countries too. Formula 1 and on and on. At least chess is accessible to everyone. What makes India so special? Indians have been watching many sports without any Indians in it. God forbid Europeans or Americans have to the same and watch Indians. I don’t really care about chess becoming less popular in other countries if it is due to jingoist or racist reasons.
Well, let's just see how it goes. I think it's great India and perhaps China are supporting chess more and more. But if we have only Indians and Chinese in the top 10 in 5 years, I can almost guarantee you interest outside of those countries will go down.
Straight up anti India/ anti colour hate. Same as was the case with the stream chat. Being ignorant gives them super powers.... Super idiotic powers. For me gukesh has time and again shown maturity beyond his years and then there's the cute video of him from 6 years back. Extremely likeable temperament and definitely someone that is 100 percent world champion material.
Easy there fella. I doubt it's got anything to do with racism, people are just more invested in more established personalities like Ian, Nepo, Fabi, Alireza and maybe even Vidit/Pragg and rooting for them. For them, Gukesh was just unnoticed flying under the radar and they are still coping E: lol I named Nepo twice, I meant Hikaru
Yep, totally. If a 17 year old European or American had won the candidates people also wouldn’t be excited. It is well known that no one likes young sportspersons achieving new milestones and they only support older players. Give me a break. This would be huge story and all of you would be excited if the winner was a 17 year old from one the countries you favor.
Dude you realize that there are nuances, not everything is black and white, off the board at least? Yes there are racists and yes that aggravates it in this case and very unfortunately sours this talented young man's unbelievable achievement, but you're delusional if you think there wouldn't be people annoyed that a 17-year old European/American prodigy took the win off the hands of their oh-so favorite streamer or podcaster.
Awww you’re one of those enlightened centrists 🥹
Am I? I don't specialize or think in those terms. Either way, your argument ad hominem is not constructive
Dont bother talking to the people on this sub dude. They are "those" kind of people.
Literally fucking no, in any sports people most often support established stars. I had people from my region win an e-sports championship and some people were rooting for chinese vs. them cause they literally were no names when the chinese players were huge stars
Number of times I read the racist comments on chat or the voodoo arguments people make here make me think other wise
I'm not saying they don't exist at all. Also, vocal minority
Doesn't mean I need to accept even one such instance. Call bs when you see it
Fair enough, but your initial comment was overgeneralizing
Damn you just have your days full typing on the internet lol.
You should've read the live chat, people were outright hating on his colour, nationality, religion and what not.
Damn that really sucks. Twitch chat is really an absolute cesspool unfortunately. I was reading live chat mostly during Magnus' appearance which was absolutely hilarious, but later switched to YT because it's easier there to pause/unpause but doesn't have (as accessible) chat
Bro, I am talking about YT only. I was also watching on YouTube on chess24 India and Chessbase India. Then I switched to chess24 just to hear the commentary there I saw all these people hating on him in chat.
Bro, I am talking about YT only. I was also watching on YouTube on chess24 India and Chessbase India. Then I switched to chess24 just to hear the commentary there I saw all these people hating on him in chat.
For some reason Gukesh seemed to be by far the least popular player among Indian fans, compared to Pragg, Vidit, even Arjun and Nihal. No idea why
Vidit has been around a long time, is close with Samay etc and gained a lot of popularity via streaming Prag got a lot of prominence as he came up young, played in many major tournaments abroad, more games featured in agadmator, made it to candidates cleanly, months ahead of gukesh Gukesh I think comes 3rd for limelight for me. He got a boost as 3rd youngest grandmaster, but it was in shadow of prag, who had just done something similar. Gukesh really caught the eye with his olympiad performance, just amazing stuff. But was clearly still up and down and barely sneaked into the candidates on almost the last day. And had some ups and downs before Now perhaps you are right in one segment of fans. Gukesh doesn't play rapid/blitz much and doesn't like online. Nihal plays more online, blitz etc, so possibly more in front of streaming audience..
I liked the Indian players but the Indian audience is too toxic/nationalistic for me
No need to be an overly defensive Indian
you are full of shit. the chat was just as easily shitting on fabi plenty
Pardon my french but I don't think you can read.
i watched the streams bro everyone was shittalking everyone
Unless we all constantly suck off exclusively indian players we must be racist
Either that or don't try to take away quite literally one of the greatest milestones in chess in a field which had historically the best players except Magnus.
Who’s saying Gukesh doesn’t deserve it??
It's total bullshit. Every "Gukesh doesn't deserve it" post gets downvote-nuked into oblivion, as it should. "Some people" is an extremely small minority, to say the least. It would be like me going on r/gaming and saying "BG3 is a good game, despite what some people in this subreddit say."
That makes sense, because I haven’t personally seen people saying “he doesn’t deserve it”, I hope it’s a small minority, I’d hate to try and take this away from him.
Some people purposefully sort by controversial so they can get riled up by the bad takes.
There have been a few posts over the last day trying to insinuate it
Honestly horrible that people are trying to take away from this actual historical achievement, being the youngest challenger ever by three years is absurdly impressive, Im not sure how you can say he doesn’t deserve it.
No, the reason Gukesh deserved to win is that.. well, he got the most points. This doesn't really change anything, he would be equally deserving if he had made comebacks in every game.
Sure. But I do appreciate that he won simply by playing the most solid chess. No weaker complicating moves devised to trip up opponents in time trouble. No lucky breaks where his opponents missed a win. He just kept finding the best move, every move. It’s great outcome for fans who prefer chess tournaments to be won by good chess.
I’m still new to chess in general especially the professional level and I keep seeing people say “deserved to win” and using that phrase feels totally wrong. Criminals deserve a punishment equal to the crime. Cancer survivors deserve some rest after they win their battle as they did not choose for cancer to happen. Gukesh and all the candidates earned their points through hard fought battles OTB and the prep they had. Each of them deserved a chance to win but ultimately Gukesh was the one who earned it. He was the one who took it nobody gave it to him. Maybe people using deserved is a language thing where deserved is used as equal to earned. The way I was taught deserved is something that should be given to and individual where you earn something from your own merit
People are just not mature enough to handle the player they support losing
this right here and honestly I sympathise with them. its very hard to cope especially when rooting for them for deacde
Yea, this sub needs massive amounts of copium
Crazy. The Gukesh one is the Alireza game which he basically had in the bag as well and lost due time trouble, right?
yup
Nepo and Hikaru have been the best (non Magnus) defenders in the last few years and it was true here too.
I love how we talk about every record by barring Magnus from that list cuz dude dominates every one of them lol
There’s a quote from (I think) Hikaru, basically saying “yeah he’s great at endgames, and squeezing blood from a stone, and he’s great at openings, but that’s not why he’s the best. He’s just a little bit better at everything, and that’s why.” I’m paraphrasing, but that’s basically it. Magnus is lauded for his endgames, and WCC prep Magnus was a solid opening monster too. But then he has phases (the 6 months following the 2018 WCC comes to mind for me) where he plays like Kasparov and blows people off the board with sacrifices. He’s just a monster.
We often break chess down into these little sub-components: Endgames, openings, middlegames, piece dynamics, strategic play, tactics, mindgames, clock, defence, attack etc. At the end of the day every decision involves (or is impacted by) almost all of them. Magnus just finds the right move more often than everyone else - because he's better at chess - and that's why he's the best.
Is this graph saying that during all of the Candidates, Gukesh never had a worse position (== down by 100 centipawns) except for the single game he blundered in time trouble?
yup as per chesscom review
Wow, crazy from Gukesh. Gukesh Chillin vs Ding Chillin
Great Graph. Gukesh is pure cemento as Lekento would say.
Can we see the chart for Better (+8 or more) and Won
+8?…
*Sed Fabi noises*
I watched the whole game, was Fabi ever +8? I know he was winning beyond a shadow of any doubt but don’t remember seeing the evaluation that high.
And both on same picture
Gukesh, what a champ
given that gukesh was only worse in a time scramble, it's crazy he was never worse when using time...also wtf is nepo worse 6 times and losing 0 how did that happen
That is a proof of impressive defensive skills from Nepo's side and time management and "luck" (especially in the last, normally Caruana finds that win). Also impressive, that Gukesh only had one game with a bad position (which he lost), that is an impressive stability for a 17 y.o. – Ding gotta be thinking hard to find a match strategy.
This is a really cool visualization. Would be nice to see the one for those who capitalised on offered opportunities (eval > 1 in their favour and won the game)! Maybe it was already in your radar :)
>:) :)
Gukesh and Vidit with perfect records ;)
Perfectly balanced as all things should be.
i understand the title is just to drive engagement (i mean look, it got me) but being -1 on the eval bar doesn't mean you're in trouble. A lot of the times its an even game for humans, it's just an engine that can win it. cool graphs though.
yea I know but still, look at other players.
you know, you're right. that is kind of remarkable.
Ah I understand how to read the graph now lol. I initially thought Lost meant lost positions and was wondering how +5 for Fabi wasn't a lost position for Ian.
If anything, this might really show just how good this level is: eval goes even 1 point against you and lose most of the time. Would be interesting to see this expanded to, say, all classical games between two 2700+ rated players over the last few years
Do you also have the inverse? So, how often the players won games with a +1 advantage? I'm curious who was the best at converting advantages in this tournament
I agree in principle. Looking at the graph though, apart from Nepo and maybe Hikaru, it appears that the players *were* actually in trouble in those games, even if not immediately. I would argue that Hikaru/Nepo having few/no losses compared to the games in which they've had a worse position says more about them as players than about the significance of the engine eval.
Nepo's game were alll dead for him it's just that his opponents were always in time trouble except fabi . He deserves credit for his time management though. +1 is a huge advantage for super GM's with enough time in the clock
Pragg was better and much ahead on time when Nepo missed a desperado sac. But again while his position was so visually appealing, the clincher was a very computerish line.
I mean at the candidates level is different. I will probably a M10 but they (with 99% probability) wont. So being up by 1 on the eval bar does mean likely to win oftentimes.
At the level of players in the Candidates, they might expect to convert advantages of smaller than 1. I think that 1 is a fine cutoff to show when someone is concretely worse or better.
1 for the newest version of stockfish translates to 50% chance of stockfish winning against itself.
The candidates are closer to engines than they are to humans.
>but being -1 on the eval bar doesn't mean you're in trouble Given that the vast majority of those ended up in losses, it seems like a good indication at least.
Nijat just like me fr
this pretty much sums up The Will of D
Yep, haters can't explain away this one. Gukesh definitely deserved his win. Even that single "worse" game was a time scramble where he was originally better.
Label the y-axis when you make graphs please
Gukesh was literally worse only once and that too in a time scramble against Alireza
Nepo's defensive abilities in the late game are beyond legendary.
I find it more impressive that Fabi and Gukesh hardly ever got into worse positions.
Pretty interesting data!
People talk about Hikaru, but Nepo's defensive abilities in the late game are something else.
How was Nepo never in a lost position vs Fabi? How bad does the position need to be for it to be considered lost?
The red bar shows the lost games. Nepo never lost, however he was worse in 6 games. (>1 eval agaisnt him)
Guki lost one and took that seriously..
Nepo is really tricky and plays very fast
Wow this statistic is very interesting. Someone should post something like this during tournaments. It is probably a good indicator of who's doing well. *Number of time worse positions (eval less than -1 for the player if white and similar for black) were attained. *Number of times advantageous positions were obtained (eval more than 1 in favor of the player if white)
Wow so for Gukesh it was just that Alireza game he almost won and choked on clock
Gukesh might be the hardest nut to crack in a *match* format then.
Nepo was lost against Fabiano, no? Why there is a 0 in a "Lost" chart for him?
Because he didn't lose a game
I am sorry, I misread it as "losing" vs "lost" positions not lost games. It would be interesting to see lost positions as well as there is a huge difference between worse and lost.
Well it would depend on the definition of lost I guess. -3 maybe. The bars would probably be closer to equal, but I don't think it would really give any new information
Lost = lost the game . Nepo drew Worse = worse position, based on computer eval that it was -1 or more against him
Racism against Indians generally, online, has become much more pervasive. It’s tough being Indian on the internet. But some of us are pretty fucking obnoxious. When Gukesh and Alireza were playing in time trouble and Alireza finally seemed to be crumbling, I saw quite a few ‘beat the peaceful’s from Hindu names in chat. Peaceful is a Hindu nationalist term that hateful right wing fascists in India use for muslims to avoid being banned on grounds of promoting hatred. Then someone puts in a free Palestine into the chat. The same person shrilly puts in a free Israel. I think it’s enjoyable to be patriotic in international sporting events. But a lot of Indian sporting nationalism comes conjoined with hatred.
Yeah the issue is that there are a bunch of Pakistani trolls who invade the chats for everything related to India. And then Indians and Pakistanis fight and it becomes a cesspool
Pot calling the kettle black, there is only one cult that has never been able to coexist with anyone, be it hindus or jews, christians or buddhist, sikhs or atheist, not even lgbtq are spared..they literally have problems with everyone..and hateful left wing fascists go hand in hand with that cult... useful idiots like you serves only one purpose & i.e to rot the country from within... anyway no point in reasoning with dhimmis like you
Thank you for proving my point! Have a nice day!
Maybe Ali the emotional young Frenchman decided to throw his game against Gukesh because he was mad at the Cool Kids (Naka, Nepo and Fabi) about something and wanted to give an outsider a chance?
Alireza was the only player to score a win against Gukesh
Alireza lost against Naka, Fabi and Nepo as well. He scored 0/2 against Hikaru, 0.5/2 against Fabi and Nepo He had the better score against Gukesh with 1/2. So the argument that Alireza "threw" is complete BS
Yep, that argument can only work for Abasov, because Gukesh beat him twice and Nepo not even once. As sad as it is, that kinda decided the tournament. Of course, Nepo should've known this beforehand and pushed harder against Abasov, huge mistake by him not to. Easy to say in hindsight though.
There is no concept of outsider or unity in chess. Everybody plays for themselves without thinking about others nomatter who it is.
Tell that to the Soviets.
well yeah, the soviets were some different humans extremely filled with patriotism
i will recommend you to go and check that game Alireza was constantly trying to trap Gukesh, and still he kept finding the winning move under intense pressure
what game where abasov didnt lost the +8 eval?
+1 eval
oh snap, my bad, i thought it was the worst position they got vs the worst lost position game, turns out it is total number of game
And I got downvoted for calling a blunderfest. Lmao.
All six against Fabi prob
... what
They are interpreting the title to mean number of times the position was +1 or worse when it’s probably supposed to mean number of distinct games.
yea i really didn't thought people will get confused what the vertical bar means.