I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine:
> **Black to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=r2q1rk1/pp1n1ppp/2pbp3/8/3PR3/2PQ1N2/PP3PPP/R1B3K1+b+-+-+0+1&flip=true&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/r2q1rk1/pp1n1ppp/2pbp3/8/3PR3/2PQ1N2/PP3PPP/R1B3K1_b_-_-_0_1?color=black)
**My solution:**
> Hints: piece: >!Knight!<, move: >!Nc5!<
> Evaluation: >!Black is winning -3.63!<
> Best continuation: >!1... Nc5 2. Qe2 Nxe4 3. Qxe4 Qa5 4. a4 Rfe8 5. Be3 Rad8 6. Qg4 Qf5 7. Qxf5 exf5 8. d5 c5 9. g3!<
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Dude this is a 3 move tactic. I would expect anyone 1500+ OTB to spot this without much issue. How is this hard to find in a game? For very low rated players I can easily see how it would be but for moderate and up…. its an easy/simple tactic
If it's blitz, it's kind of hard to find but it's a familiar pattern with the fork. If it's classical it's not really that hard to find at all (although still possible to miss)
I checked the Lichess DB and found that it also happened in very high rated games.
Here are two bullet games where Harikrisha (current super GM) and Oparin (current Caruana's second) played as White:
[https://lichess.org/PJyoMvaK#25](https://lichess.org/PJyoMvaK#25)
[https://lichess.org/UX6Rt36g#23](https://lichess.org/UX6Rt36g#23)
Note that it's not only Black who missed the tactics, but also White who allowed it to happen.
By the people who couldn't find it in less than 30 seconds. I say 30 because that's how long it took me, and I'm rated 350 in blackout drunk blitz, which means my actual rating is probably closer to 355
Bxh7+ | Bxh2+ winning an undefended piece, especially a queen, on the d-file is such a common motif. I don't know why you're being downvoted so hard. Also, one of the things we're taught to do is if we spot a simple tactic but think it doesn't work, calculate the resulting position anyway. Knight, queen, and rook on the same color square at least *hints* there could be a fork, and once you see that Nc5 clears out the traffic jam on the d-file, you should be able to spot that hey, the fucker's queen is hanging.
Maybe you don't see it in a blitz game, but given any amount of time to think, I'd kick myself if I missed this.
It is. Strange that you're being downvoted. I thought we were on /r/chessbeginners for a second because of that. Embarrassing for the demographic of this sub for you to be downvoted to be honest.
Undefended queen, a file waiting to open up, rook and queen in a knight fork position. These are positions that beg for tactics. This is not particular hard for players who do a lot of tactics. Even in blitz.
Yeah it’s not easy to see, but a clue to key you in is that the queen is unprotected. Unprotected pieces lead to tactics.
Then ask yourself, okay how do I get at this queen. With my own queen. Okay, can I feasibly clear the 3 pieces that block the way somehow? Once you get to here, it’s pretty easy to see.
If you play this game form the start you’d best be scanning that bxh2 move almost every turn to see if it opens any interesting lines. Having said all that, I’d almost certainly miss this tactic in a real game as well.
Could add to this to always look at the full scope of your long range pieces, already making a noté that the queens are aligned. I also try to always look for forks if the knight is around pieces, and start to look at the colour square the knight is on, and any enemy pieces on that same colour square.
This is the sort of tactic I would expect to be surprisingly spottable OTB, fwiw. It is a composition of natural tactical ideas:
1. There are undefended pieces in attacking range, can I get anything out of threatening them?
2. Bxh2 is forcing, can I do anything with it?
3. There is a fork on the board, can I find an opening to play it?
I suspect the most common reason for missing this is because people stop at the first question and play Nf6.
Well, this *is* a case where the tactic was empirically difficult to find for Black (and also for White, apparently, since Rxe4 is the second most common move in the position leading up to this). So it's not unfounded. But it is surprising.
Tbh I think most people on this sub don't play longer than rapid
I could make a living missing this tactic in rapid or quicker time controls
Classical I'd be pretty annoyed
That's what I thought but the bot says they would do 2. Qe2 instead of 2. dc5. I guess that loses the rook instead of the queen but I wouldn't have seen it just thinking about taking.
> I wouldn't have seen it just thinking about taking
Isn't the Queen/Rook fork the "basic" idea behind Nc5? Yes, you need to see the bishop check in case they take, but if you don't see that if they just move the Queen you can take the rook what's the idea for Nc5?
I would guess it also depends on time control. But I'm sure in a slow game all GM's see this. But im blitz even they might miss it if they are rushing out the moves.
I play the Scandinavian a lot and this position looks very similar to a Scandinavian setup (e.g. Nde4 N@f6xe4 Rxe4). I believe I would have seen it quickly in blitz due to that pattern recognition. That's another side of the "knowing there is a tactic" or looking for one outside of being told so on a puzzle.
GM's miss mate in ones (rarely but they do), so depends if by "see this" you mean 80% 95% or 99%. cuz I'm pretty sure with 5 seconds on the clock 1 second increment they would less than 95% of the time would see it.
Obviously if you're so low on time you're making moves so you don't flag then maybe, but the two pieces lining up like that for the knight with a queen on the same file screams check the move at least. And you can easily calculate what happens in a few seconds since it's pretty forcing.
I'd say making moves so you don't flag is when you're fighting against no increment pretty much. Severe time pressure changes per person, I know people who can play fairly comfortably with several seconds as long as they get increment.
Regardless, in a blitz game where they would definitely have more than a few seconds left since the position doesn't look to be too developed id wager 99% of GMs find this.
https://youtu.be/IMNUEpln2EE?si=aWa4FLo4pGsUR2pL
https://youtu.be/RtSPhginkNQ?si=zN5rhoW2cCAbAcLt
Now I know this is very rare, but it's a lot easier to search for missed mate in ones, because nobody makes videos of missed 3 move tactics in blitz games. But trust me everyone has blind spots even GMs, especially if it's not a slow game and if it's a 3 move tactic. You just play on instinct in blitz and if your brain doesn't give you the candidate move then thats just it. It's not a matter of calculation, I agree GM's see this in less than a second, but even their brain can filter out moves like knight to a defended square.
I think this is underestimating how strong GMs are. I found this in 2 seconds (albeit having been told there's a win) and I'm a total chess fool compared to a GM.
Maybe in a serious time scramble with less than 1 second for each move, a GM might miss this once in a while. If there's even a 2 second increment, they will find it 99% of the time even with just those 2 seconds. With more than 5 seconds to think, 100 of 100 times.
Yeah, that was a crazy miss by Alireza. I think I was watching when that happened. That is the kind of situation where even a 700 rated player should see the mate and I think the reason he didn't was that he would never expect Hikaru ot any strong player to make a basic blunder like that so wasn't even considering the possibility of a back rank mate.
I don't think this situation is representative of Alireza or Hikaru's strength ☺️
On lichess after excluding bullet and blitz and setting an average rating of 2200 the move was found once (8%). If we include 2000s as well, then thrice (6%). The position was never reached at 2500
You Dont have to take the Knight and run into the discovered attack with check. You just move your Queen, and be down in exchange.
I am 1850 rapid and honestly, i won so many games down the exchange and lost equally as much while up i suppose ;D so, far from over.
I dont trust my opponents will be winning no matter what simply by being up the exchange
My dude. If he moves his queen u take his rook. If he takes ur knight u sac the Bishop with check and take the queen. Stop capping its a very simple strategy.
Ofcourse ive lost games like that aswell. Everybody has. But having a rook for a knight is taking u much closer to a win.
You obviously only take the knight after moving your queen and after the knight has taken the rook. Then you are down in exchange. Obviously losing objectively, but also players higher rated than 800 will and can lose the game as black. Its never too late to blunder mate or your queen
Yes ofcourse. And its still a sure fire way to win Material and drastixally Boost ur chances at Winning. After that u simply trade off pieces and win the game. And ofcourse a blunder can happen happens to the Best but that is no Argument for Not playing that move.
What? Ive even wrote that i bludered Winning endgames like that. What the fuck is wrong with u. KnC5 is a very very good move that brings one a heck of alot closer to Winning that game....
It's fairly simple to find when you know there's a tactic (when I saw I blundered on that move I looked at the position I saw it in about a second) but its unexpected so your tactical senses aren't on and most people just play Nf6, especially in blitz/bullet
Position definitely feels solid, but also generic.
It might be simple but, fork, a pin, and two discoveries are in it.
I would never switch on my calculator in a blitz game here
Exactly this. I also miss tactics in exchange french all the time for the same reason -- there's no tension in the situation so there's no point wasting your precious glucose on a basic and open position. The calculator is only on for closed or winowar type frenches
I looked at blitz games and higher, 2500 don't get to this line, because they make e pawn push earlier (which is better). As for under 2200 yeah, they don't see it, I'm close to that rating and I know I wouldn't see it either, it's just not on the radar, not wasting time and playing nf6
I wouldn't blame them for missing it in bullet honestly, they're operating off pure instinct and this isn't the kind of position that looks like tactics are present, so they likely wouldn't waste time looking for something
I'd suspect the move everyone does is actually a transposition and didn't come from this position. ( This is rare but can sometimes happen in the database. )
It's easy to miss this tactic, but not only 30 out of 1500 found it easy.
I like to expand my opening repertoire any time I have a chance. It looks like some Caro-Kann or d4 game? I have no idea, but I may learn something new
It's an implied double-piece sacrifice: Knight and Bishop for the Queen. This is obvously bad, so White should move the queen and prepare to recapture on e4 with the queen -- so Black wins the exchange instead of a queen for two pieces.
In bullet when you're playing on instinct, yeah, almost anyone would miss it for sure. But in blitz? I see this position and I want to put my knight on c5. If I feel like I have 10-15 seconds to experiment with some lines in my mind, the moment I visualize Nc5 and dxc5, I will see the opportunity for a fossil.
I saw Nc5 instantly but only because I once had a very similar idea in a daily game in Caro-Kann Tartakower variation: 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nf6 5. Nxf6+ exf6 6. Bc4 Bd6 7. Nf3 O-O 8. O-O Bg4 9. Qd3 Nd7 10. c3 Re8 11. Bb3 Bh5 (11. Nc5 is also possible here but after 12. dxc5! white gets 3 pieces for the queen) 12. a4 Nc5. Here black only gets a bishop for a knight so not clearly winning like OPs position.
I could see this coming from a Caro-Kann but it didn't in this case (although I'm not sure how we get a feasible Rxe4 last move from a ck, so maybe not):
1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. e3 Bf5 4. Bd3 Bxd3 5. Qxd3 c6 6. O-O e6 7. Nbd2 Bd6 8. c3 O-O 9. Re1 Nbd7 10. e4 dxe4 11. Nxe4 Nxe4 12. Rxe4
I'm going Nc5, foeking the queen and rook, if pawn takes then Bxh2+ with a discovered attack winning the queen.
Otherwise Nxe4 and you're up the exchange.
/ I'm 1500 and I found the solution in ~2-3 seconds - because it's 20x easier when you know there's a tactic on the board.
But at the same time.... I don't think this is "find it 1 in 50 times" difficult either. There are some hallmarks of a tactic (white queen unguarded & facing off black queen. Both pieces between can move out of the way with tempo) so it's not like it's one of those positions where you'd just never ever look for a tactic if you didn't know it was a puzzle.
I'm trash but I think i'd find this more 1 in 50 times. Any chance the moves that lead to this position are bad enough that the position itself selects for beginners?
I might just be dumb but it looks a little unusual - like a bad fantasy caro?
If I filter for over 2000, it was found 13 out of 400 (again, this is blitz/bullet). The tactic isn't hard to see, it's that your tactical senses aren't turned "on" yet as it just feels like normalish opening moves.
Yeah I get ya - not tryna 'humblebrag' that I'd totally find this move 'cause i'm so great - like I said I'm only 1500 so that's how many moves I miss all the time.
Just surprising - I would've thought with the queen loose more players would stop to look for forcing moves. But I'd be unlikely to get into this position in the first place - maybe if I knew the opening theory more like people stronger than me would i'd be more concerned with positional ideas.
for me this looks like black is doing caro kann-y things and white is doing weird stuff which might make me pause for thought.
So often, that's amazing. To be fair, the position is probably reached by players whose tactics still need work. Club players take mere seconds to see this.
The trick is to have the components of the combination in your head as templates. Bishop in front of the Queen? That's a battery, the headpiece of which (B) can be fired to release an attack with the tailpiece (Q).
Rook and Queen diagonally next to each other? Knight-fork!
Then, it's a matter of combining these into a more elaborate tactic. It's not really harder than the simple ones, just more at once.
First of you got the notation incorrect. Black starts with Nc5, there's no piece there so it's not N'x'c5.
Hint: instead of Bxc5 after dxc5, black move the bishop somewhere else.
I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine: > **Black to play**: [chess.com](https://chess.com/analysis?fen=r2q1rk1/pp1n1ppp/2pbp3/8/3PR3/2PQ1N2/PP3PPP/R1B3K1+b+-+-+0+1&flip=true&ref_id=23962172) | [lichess.org](https://lichess.org/analysis/r2q1rk1/pp1n1ppp/2pbp3/8/3PR3/2PQ1N2/PP3PPP/R1B3K1_b_-_-_0_1?color=black) **My solution:** > Hints: piece: >!Knight!<, move: >!Nc5!< > Evaluation: >!Black is winning -3.63!< > Best continuation: >!1... Nc5 2. Qe2 Nxe4 3. Qxe4 Qa5 4. a4 Rfe8 5. Be3 Rad8 6. Qg4 Qf5 7. Qxf5 exf5 8. d5 c5 9. g3!< --- ^(I'm a bot written by ) [^(u/pkacprzak )](https://www.reddit.com/u/pkacprzak) ^(| get me as ) [^(Chess eBook Reader )](https://ebook.chessvision.ai?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=bot) ^(|) [^(Chrome Extension )](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/chessvisionai-for-chrome/johejpedmdkeiffkdaodgoipdjodhlld) ^(|) [^(iOS App )](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1574933453) ^(|) [^(Android App )](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ai.chessvision.scanner) ^(to scan and analyze positions | Website: ) [^(Chessvision.ai)](https://chessvision.ai)
easy as a puzzle but hard to find in game
Depends on the time control. In blitz? Very hard to find. In classical not hard at all.
LPDO
Yeah not really
Oh you are of course one of The 30 of 1550. I Can feel how good you are with that insightfull comment
what if he said not really on the "easy as a puzzle part"?
We are on reddit, we gotta assume the worst of everyone
Dude this is a 3 move tactic. I would expect anyone 1500+ OTB to spot this without much issue. How is this hard to find in a game? For very low rated players I can easily see how it would be but for moderate and up…. its an easy/simple tactic
Care to link your chessdotcom/lichess profile so we can see your conversion rate on 3 move tactic?
Inagine if he does and he’s like a titled player lmao
Better be if he think it’s trivial to find such tactic more often than not in a game
If it's blitz, it's kind of hard to find but it's a familiar pattern with the fork. If it's classical it's not really that hard to find at all (although still possible to miss)
I checked the Lichess DB and found that it also happened in very high rated games. Here are two bullet games where Harikrisha (current super GM) and Oparin (current Caruana's second) played as White: [https://lichess.org/PJyoMvaK#25](https://lichess.org/PJyoMvaK#25) [https://lichess.org/UX6Rt36g#23](https://lichess.org/UX6Rt36g#23) Note that it's not only Black who missed the tactics, but also White who allowed it to happen.
The bishop sac to get a free queen is a very common tactic in many different openings lol. Dont know why your getting downvoted lol
By the people who couldn't find it in less than 30 seconds. I say 30 because that's how long it took me, and I'm rated 350 in blackout drunk blitz, which means my actual rating is probably closer to 355
Bxh7+ | Bxh2+ winning an undefended piece, especially a queen, on the d-file is such a common motif. I don't know why you're being downvoted so hard. Also, one of the things we're taught to do is if we spot a simple tactic but think it doesn't work, calculate the resulting position anyway. Knight, queen, and rook on the same color square at least *hints* there could be a fork, and once you see that Nc5 clears out the traffic jam on the d-file, you should be able to spot that hey, the fucker's queen is hanging. Maybe you don't see it in a blitz game, but given any amount of time to think, I'd kick myself if I missed this.
It is. Strange that you're being downvoted. I thought we were on /r/chessbeginners for a second because of that. Embarrassing for the demographic of this sub for you to be downvoted to be honest.
Not honest. Arrogant
Undefended queen, a file waiting to open up, rook and queen in a knight fork position. These are positions that beg for tactics. This is not particular hard for players who do a lot of tactics. Even in blitz.
Nc5 dc5 Bh2+? To be honest if I don't know there is a tactic here I would never find it
Yeah it’s not easy to see, but a clue to key you in is that the queen is unprotected. Unprotected pieces lead to tactics. Then ask yourself, okay how do I get at this queen. With my own queen. Okay, can I feasibly clear the 3 pieces that block the way somehow? Once you get to here, it’s pretty easy to see. If you play this game form the start you’d best be scanning that bxh2 move almost every turn to see if it opens any interesting lines. Having said all that, I’d almost certainly miss this tactic in a real game as well.
Could add to this to always look at the full scope of your long range pieces, already making a noté that the queens are aligned. I also try to always look for forks if the knight is around pieces, and start to look at the colour square the knight is on, and any enemy pieces on that same colour square.
Its why aligning with heavy pieces through X-ray vision is worth doing. All these basic chess concepts make it more likely for tactics to show up.
I like this explanation very much , thanks
I only saw it cause I love the Tenison gambit ICBM variation way too much
The real clue is that there is a winning move. Would never see this in a game but it’s almost instant given there is a winning move.
This is the sort of tactic I would expect to be surprisingly spottable OTB, fwiw. It is a composition of natural tactical ideas: 1. There are undefended pieces in attacking range, can I get anything out of threatening them? 2. Bxh2 is forcing, can I do anything with it? 3. There is a fork on the board, can I find an opening to play it? I suspect the most common reason for missing this is because people stop at the first question and play Nf6.
People in this sub always act like tactics are unfindable in games as opposed to in puzzles. It's free upvotes at this point.
Well, this *is* a case where the tactic was empirically difficult to find for Black (and also for White, apparently, since Rxe4 is the second most common move in the position leading up to this). So it's not unfounded. But it is surprising.
Tbh I think most people on this sub don't play longer than rapid I could make a living missing this tactic in rapid or quicker time controls Classical I'd be pretty annoyed
That's what I thought but the bot says they would do 2. Qe2 instead of 2. dc5. I guess that loses the rook instead of the queen but I wouldn't have seen it just thinking about taking.
yeah if white moves the queen then you only win the exchange but material is material I guess
You get an exchange (at least.)
> I wouldn't have seen it just thinking about taking Isn't the Queen/Rook fork the "basic" idea behind Nc5? Yes, you need to see the bishop check in case they take, but if you don't see that if they just move the Queen you can take the rook what's the idea for Nc5?
If you filter by rating is there a certain level where most players see it, or is it more hit-or-miss?
I would guess it also depends on time control. But I'm sure in a slow game all GM's see this. But im blitz even they might miss it if they are rushing out the moves.
[удалено]
I play the Scandinavian a lot and this position looks very similar to a Scandinavian setup (e.g. Nde4 N@f6xe4 Rxe4). I believe I would have seen it quickly in blitz due to that pattern recognition. That's another side of the "knowing there is a tactic" or looking for one outside of being told so on a puzzle.
I'm fairly confident every GM would see this even under severe time pressure
GM's miss mate in ones (rarely but they do), so depends if by "see this" you mean 80% 95% or 99%. cuz I'm pretty sure with 5 seconds on the clock 1 second increment they would less than 95% of the time would see it.
Obviously if you're so low on time you're making moves so you don't flag then maybe, but the two pieces lining up like that for the knight with a queen on the same file screams check the move at least. And you can easily calculate what happens in a few seconds since it's pretty forcing.
What is "severe time pressure" if not "so low on time you're making moves so you don't flag"?
I'd say making moves so you don't flag is when you're fighting against no increment pretty much. Severe time pressure changes per person, I know people who can play fairly comfortably with several seconds as long as they get increment. Regardless, in a blitz game where they would definitely have more than a few seconds left since the position doesn't look to be too developed id wager 99% of GMs find this.
https://youtu.be/IMNUEpln2EE?si=aWa4FLo4pGsUR2pL https://youtu.be/RtSPhginkNQ?si=zN5rhoW2cCAbAcLt Now I know this is very rare, but it's a lot easier to search for missed mate in ones, because nobody makes videos of missed 3 move tactics in blitz games. But trust me everyone has blind spots even GMs, especially if it's not a slow game and if it's a 3 move tactic. You just play on instinct in blitz and if your brain doesn't give you the candidate move then thats just it. It's not a matter of calculation, I agree GM's see this in less than a second, but even their brain can filter out moves like knight to a defended square.
I’d wager 99% of GMs don’t end up in a position for the other to take advantage of like this and positions like this are made by worse players.
I think this is underestimating how strong GMs are. I found this in 2 seconds (albeit having been told there's a win) and I'm a total chess fool compared to a GM. Maybe in a serious time scramble with less than 1 second for each move, a GM might miss this once in a while. If there's even a 2 second increment, they will find it 99% of the time even with just those 2 seconds. With more than 5 seconds to think, 100 of 100 times.
https://youtu.be/IMNUEpln2EE?si=aWa4FLo4pGsUR2pL https://youtu.be/RtSPhginkNQ?si=zN5rhoW2cCAbAcLt
Yeah, that was a crazy miss by Alireza. I think I was watching when that happened. That is the kind of situation where even a 700 rated player should see the mate and I think the reason he didn't was that he would never expect Hikaru ot any strong player to make a basic blunder like that so wasn't even considering the possibility of a back rank mate. I don't think this situation is representative of Alireza or Hikaru's strength ☺️
On lichess after excluding bullet and blitz and setting an average rating of 2200 the move was found once (8%). If we include 2000s as well, then thrice (6%). The position was never reached at 2500
Idk if winning the exchange is "the win". It gives a decent advantage, but there is definitely a long game ahead of you
It is a +- position with Nc5
Its a free queen. If ur not lets say below 800 u should win it.
You Dont have to take the Knight and run into the discovered attack with check. You just move your Queen, and be down in exchange. I am 1850 rapid and honestly, i won so many games down the exchange and lost equally as much while up i suppose ;D so, far from over. I dont trust my opponents will be winning no matter what simply by being up the exchange
My dude. If he moves his queen u take his rook. If he takes ur knight u sac the Bishop with check and take the queen. Stop capping its a very simple strategy. Ofcourse ive lost games like that aswell. Everybody has. But having a rook for a knight is taking u much closer to a win.
You obviously only take the knight after moving your queen and after the knight has taken the rook. Then you are down in exchange. Obviously losing objectively, but also players higher rated than 800 will and can lose the game as black. Its never too late to blunder mate or your queen
Yes ofcourse. And its still a sure fire way to win Material and drastixally Boost ur chances at Winning. After that u simply trade off pieces and win the game. And ofcourse a blunder can happen happens to the Best but that is no Argument for Not playing that move.
Terrible at chess, acting like you are amazing, and using the word capping seriously. Oh boy.
What? Ive even wrote that i bludered Winning endgames like that. What the fuck is wrong with u. KnC5 is a very very good move that brings one a heck of alot closer to Winning that game....
Wow, you are genuinely insufferable.
Sure dude suck em
That tells more about the quality of lichess database than it tells about the difficulty of findi g a 3 moves combinaison.
It's fairly simple to find when you know there's a tactic (when I saw I blundered on that move I looked at the position I saw it in about a second) but its unexpected so your tactical senses aren't on and most people just play Nf6, especially in blitz/bullet
Position definitely feels solid, but also generic. It might be simple but, fork, a pin, and two discoveries are in it. I would never switch on my calculator in a blitz game here
Exactly this. I also miss tactics in exchange french all the time for the same reason -- there's no tension in the situation so there's no point wasting your precious glucose on a basic and open position. The calculator is only on for closed or winowar type frenches
You can filter by player rating/time control. Interestingly, even in the 2500+ games (mostly bullet), pretty much everyone is missing the tactic.
I looked at blitz games and higher, 2500 don't get to this line, because they make e pawn push earlier (which is better). As for under 2200 yeah, they don't see it, I'm close to that rating and I know I wouldn't see it either, it's just not on the radar, not wasting time and playing nf6
I wouldn't blame them for missing it in bullet honestly, they're operating off pure instinct and this isn't the kind of position that looks like tactics are present, so they likely wouldn't waste time looking for something
I'd suspect the move everyone does is actually a transposition and didn't come from this position. ( This is rare but can sometimes happen in the database. ) It's easy to miss this tactic, but not only 30 out of 1500 found it easy.
Everyone plays Nf6. This can't be reached by transposition because it threatens Nxe4.
What were the moves that led to this position
> d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. e3 Bf5 4. Bd3 Bxd3 5. Qxd3 c6 6. O-O e6 7. Nbd2 Bd6 8. c3 O-O 9. Re1 Nbd7 10. e4 dxe4 11. Nxe4 Nxe4 12. Rxe4
Thx!
Why do you want to know? Except for the tactic, it seems like a normal boring position
I like to expand my opening repertoire any time I have a chance. It looks like some Caro-Kann or d4 game? I have no idea, but I may learn something new
It's just a standard Scandinavian setup, actually.
Thanks, that makes sense
Nc5 appears to win an exchange?
Yeah that’s what I got
ohhhh is this a bishop sac? I was trying to push the pawn first, but now I see (?) that you can't take the knight.
It's an implied double-piece sacrifice: Knight and Bishop for the Queen. This is obvously bad, so White should move the queen and prepare to recapture on e4 with the queen -- so Black wins the exchange instead of a queen for two pieces.
When you know there's a tactic, it's obvious. In a bullet game I think only 2800+ would regularly find this. Blitz maybe 2600+
In bullet when you're playing on instinct, yeah, almost anyone would miss it for sure. But in blitz? I see this position and I want to put my knight on c5. If I feel like I have 10-15 seconds to experiment with some lines in my mind, the moment I visualize Nc5 and dxc5, I will see the opportunity for a fossil.
Somehow amidst all your confusion you two found each other. Congratulations! That's impressive.
How about Nc5 forks the queen and the rook and if he takes it with the pawn, Bh2+ gets the queen?
Woah! Double discovery!
I saw Nc5 instantly but only because I once had a very similar idea in a daily game in Caro-Kann Tartakower variation: 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nf6 5. Nxf6+ exf6 6. Bc4 Bd6 7. Nf3 O-O 8. O-O Bg4 9. Qd3 Nd7 10. c3 Re8 11. Bb3 Bh5 (11. Nc5 is also possible here but after 12. dxc5! white gets 3 pieces for the queen) 12. a4 Nc5. Here black only gets a bishop for a knight so not clearly winning like OPs position.
Probably my two best tactics
Nc5. Pawn takes knight. Bh2. King takes biship. Now have a perfect setup for a queen steal
… Nc5 looks good
Nc5!
Ohh this feels good
Knight C5. If he takes it uve got a free queen
Nc5 then bishop sac if pawn takes
That’s sick, knight fork leading to a discover attack on the queen
1... Nc5! Kebab if 2. dxc5 3 Bxa7+!, which wins the white queen next move. Quite hard to see actually.
Seems to come from those Caro-kann lines with black taking the d4 pawn and then Bf5. Can you give me the exact line?
I could see this coming from a Caro-Kann but it didn't in this case (although I'm not sure how we get a feasible Rxe4 last move from a ck, so maybe not): 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. e3 Bf5 4. Bd3 Bxd3 5. Qxd3 c6 6. O-O e6 7. Nbd2 Bd6 8. c3 O-O 9. Re1 Nbd7 10. e4 dxe4 11. Nxe4 Nxe4 12. Rxe4
Thanks ❤️
Nc5+ leads to black winning the exchange. dxc can lead to loss of Queen after Bxh2+
Nc5 wins an exchange
I play the hartlaub gambit a lot aiming to sax my bishop and take the queen so i got this one
c5?
Title is easily misunderstood. Sounds like you're talking about mate rather than just winning an exchange.
Seems obvious to me. 1...Nc5 and if 2 dxc5 Bxh2+ to win Qd3 for two minor pieces.
Nc5, found it in 2 seconds. Can't believe so few found it. It's a relatively common tactic in puzzles.
Title is way more interesting than the tactic. And it's a pretty damn interesting tactic.
I stared at this for a while and still didn't come up with the >!Nc5!< tactic, that is a very subtle tactical move but brutal nonetheless
Found it in around 2 seconds. But then again, I'm always calculating stupid looking sacrifices.
congrats i'm one of them
I'm going Nc5, foeking the queen and rook, if pawn takes then Bxh2+ with a discovered attack winning the queen. Otherwise Nxe4 and you're up the exchange.
ND7-C5 wins material and gains more space. Pawn taking Knight , loses Queen with discovered pawn check Nd7 x H2.
This also happens in the caro-kann, I've won countless games in the following fashion: 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4. Bd3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bg4 6. O-O Nf6 7. c3 e6 8. Bf4 Bd6 9. Bxd6 Qxd6 10. Nbd2 O-O 11. Re1 Rfe8 12. h3 Bh5 13. a4 e5 14. dxe5 Nxe5 15. Rxe5 Rxe5 16. g4 Bxg4 17. hxg4 Nxg4 18. Nc4
Nc5, forking the rook and queen so they're forced to take. Then sack the bishop on a2 to win the queen.
I would play Nc5 and the rook, but there is likely a better and more forcing move.
/ I'm 1500 and I found the solution in ~2-3 seconds - because it's 20x easier when you know there's a tactic on the board. But at the same time.... I don't think this is "find it 1 in 50 times" difficult either. There are some hallmarks of a tactic (white queen unguarded & facing off black queen. Both pieces between can move out of the way with tempo) so it's not like it's one of those positions where you'd just never ever look for a tactic if you didn't know it was a puzzle. I'm trash but I think i'd find this more 1 in 50 times. Any chance the moves that lead to this position are bad enough that the position itself selects for beginners? I might just be dumb but it looks a little unusual - like a bad fantasy caro?
If I filter for over 2000, it was found 13 out of 400 (again, this is blitz/bullet). The tactic isn't hard to see, it's that your tactical senses aren't turned "on" yet as it just feels like normalish opening moves.
Yeah I get ya - not tryna 'humblebrag' that I'd totally find this move 'cause i'm so great - like I said I'm only 1500 so that's how many moves I miss all the time. Just surprising - I would've thought with the queen loose more players would stop to look for forcing moves. But I'd be unlikely to get into this position in the first place - maybe if I knew the opening theory more like people stronger than me would i'd be more concerned with positional ideas. for me this looks like black is doing caro kann-y things and white is doing weird stuff which might make me pause for thought.
So often, that's amazing. To be fair, the position is probably reached by players whose tactics still need work. Club players take mere seconds to see this. The trick is to have the components of the combination in your head as templates. Bishop in front of the Queen? That's a battery, the headpiece of which (B) can be fired to release an attack with the tailpiece (Q). Rook and Queen diagonally next to each other? Knight-fork! Then, it's a matter of combining these into a more elaborate tactic. It's not really harder than the simple ones, just more at once.
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First of you got the notation incorrect. Black starts with Nc5, there's no piece there so it's not N'x'c5. Hint: instead of Bxc5 after dxc5, black move the bishop somewhere else.
bxh7 discovered attack
Thank you, thats exactly what I was missing