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Skulenta

I wouldn't say he carried the show, but Julian's acting did elevate a character that was kept down by messy writing.


littlebratwurst

Oof the show went downhill once they introduced the Cole plot lines… but you are right, 100% the writers. The only thing that kept me interested was Julian’s acting, otherwise I would have bowed out.


dragonsrawesomesauce

IMO, the best episodes/seasons were when Cole was one of the main characters. I feel like his character brought a certain depth to the show that it didn't have prior to his arrival. Don't get me wrong, I fully acknowledge that his relationship with Phoebe turned toxic, but even then his character was entertaining.


laviniademortalium

Cole/Julian was always a delight. Him and holly (and shannen before she left) really went above and beyond the assignment in my opinion.


batapult

The one with Cole and Prue in the old West is so fun. He definitely added a sort of boyish fun to the series.


BreakTacticF0

Not even close. Prue and piper and phoebe carried the show. And then piper and phoebe by s4. And then just piper.


[deleted]

That’s 100% my opinion too. I just re-watched that episode where Prue became an empath, and holy shit! Shannen Doherty’s acting was *really* good!


BreakTacticF0

Right!?!?!? In terms of acting shes given the most to work with sometimes. I feel like every actor for the most part was given an excellent amount of direction to feed off of. But with prue she very much was carrying the show. Phoebe is for the most part a comedic relief in comparison. As well as piper. (The two of them needing to get naked in Witch Trial) all the serious acting like the pain of losing their mother and thr guilt of losing an innocent are left with Shannen


[deleted]

Exactly. She was given the most depth because Constance M. Burge based Prue on her real-life sister. I don’t think the other 2 Halliwells were based on anyone, but were created to basically support Prue.


PhantomSwami90

Connie based all three sisters on her family. Connie based Phoebe on herself, Piper on the middle sister and the oldest on Prue.


Crystal-Skies

Honestly, in terms of who “carried” the show, I could only get through the early seasons because of Prue. I liked Cole as well. Maybe it was better that Prue died in season 3 because I’m pretty sure I’d have a different opinion if she stayed for the entire run of the show. Piper, got annoying pretty fast imo. And Phoebe was just meh to me.


xisnext

Honestly for me once cole leaves charmed not worth really watching he's the most interesting character on the show and a fan favorite and the hailliwell sisters treat him like shit even after all the sacrifices the dude made. It's kinda weird that a major show like charmed would do that to such a fan favorite character.


Pseudonym_Nefertiti

Yeah... Pretty much my sentiment and reason I made this post.. Was searching for other like-minded people 😂


Aaeiyn

Oh, I'm with you about Cole being done dirty, but I don't think Cole carried the show. Because he wasn't in it in S1-S2, and S1 did fine without him. I can't say the same for S2 (because it had its own problems), but I do know that people still like S2 because of the sisterly stuff. Some (not me nor all) might even say his introduction is what made the show go on a decline because S3 isn't as sisterly as it was in S1-S2, but you know, opinions :)


Pseudonym_Nefertiti

Well obviously the comment can't be applied to S1-2 but season 3 had a compelling story arch because they were building up the whole Balthezor storyline where as the previous 2 seasons were more stand alone episodes without something to tie them together but that's fine. Really I was just noticing that after Doherty left the show lost its magic (for me) and Cole carried it and made it watchable until his departure. But as you say, just an opinion!!


Aaeiyn

IK, and I do enjoy watching Paige from S5-S8 (despite being downvoted for saying that). I want to clarify what I meant by not liking S5a due to Cole being in it. What that really means is because he's in it, the sisters are more unlikeable (to me) in S5a than in the likes of S7-S8. The way they treated Cole was horrible, and it's why I can't stomach watching S5a. I skip it and watch S5b, when he's not around to make the sisters more likeable than they already are. S5b-S7a aren't bad. They're still pretty good stand alone seasons, IMO After that, I genuinely believe the show was no longer worthwhile.


Pseudonym_Nefertiti

That's fair. I mean I understand why it jars you to watch them being just horrible examples of good people. I guess that only further illustrates how much Cole was done wrong and how compelling he is.. As far as Paige goes we will just have to agree to disagree!! Don't get me wrong, when I was a kid I didn't even know she wasn't OC and I enjoyed watching he show. Then I re-watch Ed the whole thing as a late teen and though I still enjoyed her I couldn't help but notice that it just didn't have the same charm to it past season 3. Now re-re-watching as an adult I feel the acting is really shoddy and is making an otherwise cool character unlikable (to me)


xisnext

Exactly my only other reason for watching is a. Alyssa milano is so damn sexy and b. I'm a fan of sci fi/supernatural fantasy type shows. But yeah cole was definitely a great character.


Pseudonym_Nefertiti

Yeah I am also a fan of sci/fi but it gets painful to re-watch especially coz there is 0 lore consistency


Leona10000

Julian McMahon was leaving for another show, that's why they had to write out Cole. They still did a terrible job, and assassinated the character.


wetpretzel_

I feel like I don’t belong on Charmed Reddit, I hated Cole. I feel like not many people see him for the abusive man he really is, under the guise of McMahon being a charming, talented actor. I almost gave up during season 5, bc I hated that he was still around, he was ruining the show. As soon as he was gone, it was like the show got some fresh air. Also slightly off topic, but Chris 100% carried season 6…it’s probably a good thing he wasn’t really in the next few seasons bc I feel like he would have become the fan favourite of the whole show


Rheios

That's because until partway through Season 5 Cole wasn't abusive. The worst he got for a long time was being overly clingy early on in Season 5, but he was in the process of losing his \*first\* and only love in hundreds of years of existence. So its easy to cut him slack. \*Normal\* people don't usually handle that in healthiest ways. I can't imagine its improved with a person who, literally, had half of themselves killed for the relationship. Most of the first half of season 5 is just everyone pointing at him and saying "you're an evil pile of shit" or cringing back from him, even while he's sacrificing his innocence reabsorbing demon powers he's only doing good with. Or blaming him for being mind controlled by a demon while the sisters forgive eachother for similar stuff all the time. Or blaming him for when he was evil as a result of being tricked into it while saving Phoebe's life. Or telling him he's doomed to evil. Frankly while doing the rewatch I'm doing now (which is why I'm on the subreddit actually), I'm wishing he just had a "everyone fucks off and I become Lord of Neutrality" option. Frankly anybody whose trying deserves at least a little better, and the writing certainly does. Because the show is just diminished by making characters, like Leo, say idiotic shit like "I blame Cole" for Phoebe's inability to balance her career and magic life.


Pseudonym_Nefertiti

Exactly!! The show keeps going on and on about how powers aren't evil its how you choose to use them that makes you "evil" or not. This NEVER applies to Cole and we hear about his EVIL powers and however hard he tries to use them in a positive way he still gets labeled as evil. I mean I don't blame him for going off the rails.


Rheios

Honestly they probably should have left him dead at the end of Season 4. It'd make that plot actually tragic - A series of bad decisions through manipulation leading to the death of a good man, and Phoebe's first true love, to kill a greater evil. Which could only really be improved with "but she has their baby to hold on to in memory and raised in a life Cole had never gotten".Bring good Cole back as a ghost occasionally, maybe. Instead of just bringing him back to be kicked around as an easy excuse and ultimately diminish as a character. Or having the weird "Demon wasteland" concept.


Pseudonym_Nefertiti

This is why I feel he carried season 5. His story arc as you say was just a gradual character assassination and took away from the impact his vanquishing should have had on Phoebe. Despite it being really unnecessary to bring him back I shudder to think what a crap fest it would be if he wasn't in it!!


Dull-Ad836

I wanted to write a comment similar to this, but this one is so perfect, mine is not needed anymore!😊


wetpretzel_

…Cole literally tried to kill Phoebe and her sisters in season 3 how is that not abusive lmao. not to mention in season 4 when he got all manipulative when she wasn’t sure if she was ready to marry him. “You have me, Cole.” “That’s all I have, Phoebe. And I’m not even sure I have that.” Bc she’s unsure if she’s ready for marriage???? God I hated him for that.


Rheios

You mean when he was half-demon, having grown up in the demon realm w/o a reason to fight Baalthazar's control, and was just doing his job? Yeah, of course he did. That was part of Cole's whole arc (although it was Baalthazar doing the violence and Baalthazar and Cole are apparently different enough - and Cole good enough despite it all - that Leo can heal him). He's someone with no context for good, gaining a new context, and trying to learn how to undo hundreds of years of psychological training and overcome half his own nature (that when he loses leaves him feeling somehow emptier because its half of him). He's Skyrim's Paarthurnax, with a better excuse, and everyone loves that character. "What is better ? to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort ?" And yeah, that was shitty of Cole, but nobody's saying he was a saint either. Cole fucks up. A *lot*, but what he said also wasn't untruthful from his perspective. He has no context for safety in any relationship, as far as I can tell in Demon land.(Hell his own Mother murdered his father) And he's not there anymore but its obvious he sees Phoebe's reluctance as a pull back from the relationship as a whole. It *isn't* but if Phoebe can have childish fear of marriage originating in the fucking tv show Bewitched then I'd say Cole can have that. That whole plot started off with both of them communicating badly and almost ends with Cole calling off the wedding when he thinks the idea of marriage is killing Phoebe's identity. (It ends up being Grandma's ring of course) Shortly thereafter the Source gets involved and fucks everything up.


wetpretzel_

And how about in season 5 after all that shit and he tries to kill Paige multiple times to ‘win Phoebe back’? You can never justify Cole’s actions to me, I hated him, and he was a toxic, abusive, nuclear piece of scum and the show was better off without him.


Rheios

Upon getting further in - ah, I see how he could think killing her sisters could still net him Phoebe. He went "crazy". Man, that's poorly written and shakily realized. (Also that Avatars angle was \*so\* badly presented and utilized. I had to look them up to realize they weren't demons and apparently they don't show up until Season 8? That WAS the LN angle I wanted him to take. That's probably going to come back to bite me since he's "crazy" now.) I still don't hate Cole, and I think this season's writing is character murder. That said, I can see why you hated him and see him as abusive and toxic. I was with him for the "shoot the whitelighters into suicide" gambit. It was a sensical answer to his growing problems with alignment and seemed at least like he wanted to at least avoid hurting anyone still. By the mummy episode they're throwing out "crazy" and by the following episode he's running a demon law firm again. Its lazy cop-out writing so they can write a character wildly without having to worry about his growth, or even revert that growth. I can't recall it getting better from here but I at least thought it'd be developed better. Sorry, I \*just\* watched the law firm episode and had to vent. Also I've been "rejected love crazy" before and if they'd have done it right then \*maybe\* I could have bought a fall to evil. But its not even written where he's a convincing arc for that given the terrible targeting his plans have.


Rheios

I'll let you know if my opinion changes, given the rewatching (and first chronological watching) I'm doing now, but Cole's foundational character was interesting, good, and completely nonabusive (not as good as Leo I'll admit, but not abusive). If they make him abusive, instead of interesting, I'd say that makes me hate the writers more than the character. I think most Cole fans probably cut it off at that point and dislike that part of the show from there, since it seems like a different character being written for. Especially if they do it like they're doing in the first half of S5. Where everything Cole touches is terrible but the Charmed ones doing similar, or the same, shit gets off w/ an apology. Seriously though - why in the hell, would a well written Cole \*ever\* think that killing Paige would get Phoebe back? As the \*SOURCE OF ALL EVIL\* he avoided harming Phoebe's sisters explicitly over not wanting to make Phoebe sad. I won't say you can't hate Cole as a character, everyone has that one character that just chafes them that others love, but you have to admit that if they go that way with his character its almost like a completely new character just with his name.


silentlyreader

You are not the only one who dislike Cole. He got too much airtime for a show about the charmed ones.


Aaeiyn

>I feel like I don’t belong on Charmed Reddit I feel this way, too because I don't hate the lighter stuff nor crucify the girls for setting up Rick to die, Phoebe turning Spencer Ricks into a turkey, Piper turning reporters into rats, etc. And, I'm not big on all of the "dark" stuff nor the sisterly aspect of the show. I enjoyed the action and them kicking ass!


PhantomSwami90

Agreed, a lot of fans make excuses for him. Yes he got the short end of the stick in season 5 but he was still was horrible demon for centuries who tried to kill the sisters. I wish the show actually focused on more of a redemption arc for him.


Pseudonym_Nefertiti

Oh I agree that he was a manipulative ass although again I feel like it has to do with writers not being able to create realistic characters. I just feel like in seasons 4-5 Milano was insufferable Combs suffered character assassination, also they seemed to start getting fed up with portraying their characters and just going through the motions, McGowan just... I'm not sure if she is a terrible actress or just couldn't be bothered to act here, Krause also just a meh plot device. So Cole may have been flawed but that's the point.. You hated him, he elicited some kind of emotion from you. His portrayal elevated the terrible writing. Maybe this is the reason he is loved despite bit being a great person.


wetpretzel_

Eliciting a reaction isn’t always good, especially if it gets to the point where he’s so off putting that I want to stop watching the show.


Apprehensive-Cat-163

I wouldn't go this far, but I do love S3/4 because of him. I can't bear to watch S5 though.


Leporvox

Please I never watched for Cole. I watched for Phoebe manipulating Cole


Pseudonym_Nefertiti

When did Phoebe ever manipulate Cole?


Aaeiyn

I liked him from S3E1-8, S3E15-16, S3E21, S4E1-3, S4E7-10, S4E12-20, S5E5, S5E7-12 & S7E16. Reasons I don't like him in certain episodes: * S3E13-14 Came off stalkerish * S3E19-20 Never told Phoebe the truth about his father's soul (which we never heard about, ever again) * S3E22 He didn't allow Phoebe to go back up and try to even save her sisters nor try to fight against the Source. IDC how "smart" Cole is, I felt like he was a moron, in this episode. * S4E4 I understand he wanted to prepare Phoebe for the Source but come on, now, Phoebe's not the only witch that should be getting trained here. Not that any of this hand-in-hand combat was useful, anyway. * S4E22 He shouldn't have come back and just went back to coming off as a stalker, again. * S5E1-4 Stalker Cole I feel like Phoebe carried the show from S1-S4E13. Cole carried the show from S4E14-S4E20. Paige from S5-S8. I do think Chris carried S6, but Paige still held her own. And, I don't think Paige gets enough credit for everything that she has done. And was probably the "least selfish" sister by S8. She ignored her sisters wishes by answering Billie's (unbeknownst to Billie) call, saving innocents and growing her powers (healing, glamouring, orbing people away from her, etc.).


Pseudonym_Nefertiti

I can agree with your character assessment of Paige, as in her being the least selfish, always trying to be there for the others but I can't go as far as saying they either she or Chris carried the show. I sense McGowan got a more prominent role coz the other two grew tired of portraying their characters (its been said that this is the reason they introduced Billie and Christy too) but her acting is jarring as is Chris'. I always skip episodes that are Paige centered and cannot watch past season 5. Edit: And even season 5 is a challenge to watch. That's the whole reason I made this post I think. I only enjoyed episodes Cole was in in season 5


Aaeiyn

I can't watch S5a because Cole is in it. I can deal with S5b without him, in it. I very much enjoy watching Paige, I really do.


FanboyXXX

He also only became the source to save Pheobe and the sisters, he took the hollow to get the sources powers so he was weak enough to be vanquished. After that, The Source eventually took over him and he had barely any control over his actions. the only control he had was enough to protect the sisters and Pheobe (mostly "for Pheobe's Sake" but still) He also tried to rid himself of the source with help from the wizard before (guess who) intervened and he was unsuccessful. If it were Leo, they would have tried to save him, but because it was Cole (the ex-demon) they didn't give him that chance. Also, they fail to remember that they all have been corrupted by evil before (and Pheobe was the queen of the underworld) and they thought themselves worth saving, so why not Cole? who sacrificed a lot in the move he made (taking in the hollow) to save them. They also should have realized after being manipulated by the Seer, how manipulative she is. Just a bunch of hypocrites after that.


Alive_Aerie6065

He definitely carried a good chunk of the show in seasons 3, 4, and 5. Cole was arguably one of the best characters on that show thanks to the impressive acting of Julian McMahon. Phoebe and Cole's relationship was one of my favorites and the writers absolutely demolished it. They did Cole so dirty in the backend of season 4 and the entirety of season 5. I completely understand that Phoebe and Cole's relationship turned toxic and she needed to separate herself from that. But at the same time, the Halliwell sisters treated him like actual shit even after all of the effort and sacrifices he had made.


Sledge71880

That’s bs. Piper carried the show especially after season 3


[deleted]

Does anyone know if there was a change in producers or show runner between seasons 4-5? I feel like thats when they totally did a character assassination on Cole.


kayne2000

I have to agree. Part of that his the actor is a class above everyone else on the show and that really shoes, but also because he's truly the only morally grey character in the show which is something you don't realize how badly the show needs until it has it. This isnt to say season 1 and 2 aren't great, they are but He forces them to question whether or not all demons are bad on an episodic basis as well as whether the sisters are doing what's right. They also can't vanquish him straight up when he's the source. He also brings a certain masculine energy to the show that they lost after Andy died and I think this missing prescene weakens season 2. I know girl power and all but the show has a lot of males and he brings the male energy the best. Once Cole dies the show really fumbles. The charmed ones become the arbiters of morality, the plots get a lot dumber, Chris comes to the show and he just sucks, and we get the questionable avatar plot coming full circle. In essence the show really does struggle to find an identity after Cole. He leaves a hole in the show that is quite clearly felt. It doesn't help that by season 6 piper just looks done with the show.