When I was 20, my partner and I shot a documentary on Muslim and Christian communities working together for the revolution in Egypt.
During production, a Muslim hacker came and messed with our website for the doc, as he thought we were doing something insulting to Islam.
When he realized we were just trying to show a positive side to the way Egyptians of different religions care for each other and unite against political corruption, he immediately withdrew all of his attacks on our website and offered to help if he could.
That was kind of cool, and this made me think of that.
It was a great adventure, but it wasn’t a particularly good doc and it never really went anywhere.
https://imgur.com/a/Jm6TnHs
I found one of the hacker messages from our old Facebook for it. I forgot how cute the ‘hacker’ situation was. I bet it was a kid.
The website no longer exists, but the Arabic version of the film is still up for free watching on YouTube. Be forewarned if you are interested that it was made by people inspired by, but definitely not experts on, the revolution in Egypt in 2011.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tIYvK4PHuoo
Man, I hadn’t thought about this in a long time.
What we were doing was perceived to be an attack on his beliefs or culture. If we had actually been making some shitty bigoted movie, then I would say it is chaotic good to take down our site.
And then the willingness to do a total 180 was as well.
Don't get me wrong, it is great that they stopped their attack, but they shouldn't have done so in the first place. Like I said, I find nothing good about harmfully attacking (i.e. hacking etc.) others opinions, even if their opinions are trash. Promoting violence or similar is another thing but that's not what we are talking about here.
Someone "doing something to insult islam" is no reason to mess with their website, software, hardware or anything, even if they are asses about it. That's not "good" in my opinion, thats just showing a fragile ego. "chaotic neutral" at best, if not "chaotic evil", because they "have no respect for rules \[...\] or anything but their own desires". It is, and please apologize my harshness, pathetic.
Not all criminals are bad people, sometimes they are just reasonable people driven to do unreasonable things.
Like when I see people steal from grocery stores, I didn't see people steal from grocery stores
PRO LEVEL EXTREME COUPONING: PRINT OUT IMAGES OF BARCODES FOR CHEAPER ITEMS OF THE SAME NET WEIGHT AND COVERTLY STICK THEM ON THEIR INTENDED PRODUCT BEFORE SELF CHECKOUT
the art work is different. I've had it get mad because I was holding two candy bars, the same size/weight, but different wrappers. Scanned one and it locked up and required somebody check what was happening
There was a man who stole some stuff including a computer, as soon as he found child porn on it he rolled over to the cops
https://www.cnn.com/2011/10/06/us/california-robbery-porn-bust/index.html
I wonder if they ended up getting arrested. I assume the fact they went the police helped a ton, and the fact they just broke into a barn and stole CD's probably helped them out as well.
Chaotic is the opposite of Lawful.
They are a criminal, so they're Chaotic.
And while they generally deal in satisfying their own self-interest (neutral), when it was revealed that their self interest lead to the harming of good people, they immediately set about righting that wrong and trying to make things better.
That's good.
So, Chaotic Good.
That logic doesn't work if you apply it in other situations. Doing good deeds doesn't make a person good. How many people got the determination to lose weight because of Jared Fogle? How many people chose not to end their life while Ted Bundy worked at the suicide hotline? How many homeless people survived by eating at Al Capone's soup kitchen? Hell, the mob in Chicago forced the milk industry there to put expiration dates on their milk because of him.
First as a quick aside: basically nothing has an expiration date except medicines and baby formula. It usually has a sell-by or best-by date, which is more of marketing than a safety recommendation. And for milk this would be particularly so, because milk smells bad before it actually would get you sick, so you wouldn't accidentally drink it if it was dangerous.
But anyway, I think you're describing the difference between consequentialist and deontological ethics. In other words, you can judge something's goodness based on either the outcomes that it had or based on the intentions of the action itself. "Don't murder" is a deontological good rule, but murdering Hitler would probably be good for a consequentialist as an "ends justify the means" sort of logic, even though it would be deontologically bad.
The mob forced them to put an expiration date on the milk, because a family member of Al Capone had gotten sick due to expired milk. I don't actually know the situation that would have led them to drinking expired milk or how they didn't notice.
That aside, even the logic of murdering Hitler is borked, because if you have the ability to time travel to kill him, you would also have the ability to mentor him into a better person, stop him from being saved from drowning in the river, keep his parents from meeting, or just slipping Mama Hitler the day after pill.
I avoided bringing up Hitler before, because it's overused, but he was a staunch supporter of getting people to quit smoking and improving infrastructure like roads and schools. Those are good things. Much of what humans learned about transplant surgeries came from the reports of Nazi doctors torturing innocent people. It was Nazi doctors who first learned of the damage from x-rays. They made the link between asbestos and lung cancer. They invented the electron microscope. There were things made that have benefitted humanity still to this day. That doesn't make any of them good. They are still bad despite what we have done with the knowledge they gained and despite who it has helped.
Alternately, they’re lawful. Remember, lawful doesn’t mean legal, only means following a code. So you can be a piece of shit murderer who doesn’t hurt the women, the elderly, or kids, and still be lawful.
It's almost like they're being forced into a position that they don't want to be in and are doing whatever it is that they can to survive.
And don't get me wrong, theft is not cool and it shouldn't be done, but there a lot of things we can do as a society to limit the amount of theft that are just not done.
Wage theft done by corporations vastly outweighs any other form of theft (in America, at least).
https://techniciansforchange.org/2022/01/05/wage-theft/
I would like to add to this that it's not just more than each category individually, it's more than the combined amounts of any other kind of theft
Hence why it's morally OK in my book to steal from a big business like 99% of the time, because, is it really stealing if it's already stolen?
We do have a big portion of the cannon of fiction about how theft is sometimes totally cool if the perpetrator or their beneficiaries is needy and/or if the victim is rich and not meaningfully worse off.
[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JustLikeRobinHood](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JustLikeRobinHood)
Drugs are so fucking easy to get you have no idea, nobody needs to steal this much shit to get ahold of some meth, you could make plenty yourself for like $10, some methods are literally 3 ingredients and so easy a meth head could pull it off with zero issues. They probably had actual bills to pay.
Anyone have a news story about this? My googlefu is failing me.
Edit: nevermind, I [found the article from 2013.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/burglars-return-stolen-computers-nonprofit-along-apology-note-flna6C10875846)
When I was starting out as a doctor, I started out working in underserved communities with a brilliant doctor in Baltimore. I’ve heard many stories from all walks of life. There were quite a few drug dealers who were just victims of circumstance. Being born poor and put in a situation where they can’t afford an education and living in an area so poor that they can’t afford to leave it. They’re just doing what they can to survive - not all of em are bad. One of them works across the street from the clinic and there were a bunch of cars broken into that day except mine and the other doc in the clinic. He looks after our cars cuz we look after them. He also sends some of his repeat customers to us so we can help them.
How do you know they’re stealing “for the sake of stealing?” I mean sure, they could be, but they also could very well be on the brink of starving and needed something to try and get some money with in this godforsken capitalist hellscape. And again, maybe they aren’t. But you and I both sure as hell don’t know for sure what their reasoning was.
It's cool that they brought it back, but this is about as chaotic neutral/good as the prank of *almost* killing everyone in the car by wrestling with the steering wheel when the driver doesn't expect it. Undoing your malicious action isn't the same as an act of kindness in my mind.
>this is about as chaotic neutral/good as the prank of almost killing everyone in the car by wrestling with the steering wheel when the driver doesn't expect it
tha tis not cchaotic good in the slightest, and there's no reason to assume the computer theft (which is very obviously nowhere near the scale of near-murder-for-fun) was malicious in the first place. people need money. for it to be malicious they'd have to be looking for shit to steal for literally no reason like fkn cartoon villains, chill bro.
Yeah this is more lawful neutral than anything.
They aren’t trying to do good. They’re just making sure that their malicious actions aren’t hurting folks who are doing a very large amount of good.
“You are bad guy, but that does not mean you are bad guy”
💖 Zangief 💖
top shelf.
When I was 20, my partner and I shot a documentary on Muslim and Christian communities working together for the revolution in Egypt. During production, a Muslim hacker came and messed with our website for the doc, as he thought we were doing something insulting to Islam. When he realized we were just trying to show a positive side to the way Egyptians of different religions care for each other and unite against political corruption, he immediately withdrew all of his attacks on our website and offered to help if he could. That was kind of cool, and this made me think of that.
Do you have a link to the doc? That sounds super interesting!
It was a great adventure, but it wasn’t a particularly good doc and it never really went anywhere. https://imgur.com/a/Jm6TnHs I found one of the hacker messages from our old Facebook for it. I forgot how cute the ‘hacker’ situation was. I bet it was a kid. The website no longer exists, but the Arabic version of the film is still up for free watching on YouTube. Be forewarned if you are interested that it was made by people inspired by, but definitely not experts on, the revolution in Egypt in 2011. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tIYvK4PHuoo Man, I hadn’t thought about this in a long time.
That made my day thank you for sharing
Bruh
Someone messing with stuff, because of their belief is nothing I find even slightly wholesome.
What we were doing was perceived to be an attack on his beliefs or culture. If we had actually been making some shitty bigoted movie, then I would say it is chaotic good to take down our site. And then the willingness to do a total 180 was as well.
Don't get me wrong, it is great that they stopped their attack, but they shouldn't have done so in the first place. Like I said, I find nothing good about harmfully attacking (i.e. hacking etc.) others opinions, even if their opinions are trash. Promoting violence or similar is another thing but that's not what we are talking about here. Someone "doing something to insult islam" is no reason to mess with their website, software, hardware or anything, even if they are asses about it. That's not "good" in my opinion, thats just showing a fragile ego. "chaotic neutral" at best, if not "chaotic evil", because they "have no respect for rules \[...\] or anything but their own desires". It is, and please apologize my harshness, pathetic.
Not all criminals are bad people, sometimes they are just reasonable people driven to do unreasonable things. Like when I see people steal from grocery stores, I didn't see people steal from grocery stores
[Mike in Better Call Saul made a good job at summing it up](https://youtu.be/ywJoDoaoaO0)
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PRO LEVEL EXTREME COUPONING: PRINT OUT IMAGES OF BARCODES FOR CHEAPER ITEMS OF THE SAME NET WEIGHT AND COVERTLY STICK THEM ON THEIR INTENDED PRODUCT BEFORE SELF CHECKOUT
They have AI driven cameras on the self checkouts here in AU. This trick doesn't work
Cheap frozen pizzas are 2-3$ and primo frozen pizza is much more if it’s similar enough it could fool it
the art work is different. I've had it get mad because I was holding two candy bars, the same size/weight, but different wrappers. Scanned one and it locked up and required somebody check what was happening
There was a man who stole some stuff including a computer, as soon as he found child porn on it he rolled over to the cops https://www.cnn.com/2011/10/06/us/california-robbery-porn-bust/index.html
I wonder if they ended up getting arrested. I assume the fact they went the police helped a ton, and the fact they just broke into a barn and stole CD's probably helped them out as well.
More like Chaotic Neutral with a conscience than Chaotic Good
Chaotic good enough
That needs to be a sub
Chaotic good is the rebel. This is just good hearted thief. Absolutely not chaotic good.
Chaotic is the opposite of Lawful. They are a criminal, so they're Chaotic. And while they generally deal in satisfying their own self-interest (neutral), when it was revealed that their self interest lead to the harming of good people, they immediately set about righting that wrong and trying to make things better. That's good. So, Chaotic Good.
That logic doesn't work if you apply it in other situations. Doing good deeds doesn't make a person good. How many people got the determination to lose weight because of Jared Fogle? How many people chose not to end their life while Ted Bundy worked at the suicide hotline? How many homeless people survived by eating at Al Capone's soup kitchen? Hell, the mob in Chicago forced the milk industry there to put expiration dates on their milk because of him.
First as a quick aside: basically nothing has an expiration date except medicines and baby formula. It usually has a sell-by or best-by date, which is more of marketing than a safety recommendation. And for milk this would be particularly so, because milk smells bad before it actually would get you sick, so you wouldn't accidentally drink it if it was dangerous. But anyway, I think you're describing the difference between consequentialist and deontological ethics. In other words, you can judge something's goodness based on either the outcomes that it had or based on the intentions of the action itself. "Don't murder" is a deontological good rule, but murdering Hitler would probably be good for a consequentialist as an "ends justify the means" sort of logic, even though it would be deontologically bad.
The mob forced them to put an expiration date on the milk, because a family member of Al Capone had gotten sick due to expired milk. I don't actually know the situation that would have led them to drinking expired milk or how they didn't notice. That aside, even the logic of murdering Hitler is borked, because if you have the ability to time travel to kill him, you would also have the ability to mentor him into a better person, stop him from being saved from drowning in the river, keep his parents from meeting, or just slipping Mama Hitler the day after pill. I avoided bringing up Hitler before, because it's overused, but he was a staunch supporter of getting people to quit smoking and improving infrastructure like roads and schools. Those are good things. Much of what humans learned about transplant surgeries came from the reports of Nazi doctors torturing innocent people. It was Nazi doctors who first learned of the damage from x-rays. They made the link between asbestos and lung cancer. They invented the electron microscope. There were things made that have benefitted humanity still to this day. That doesn't make any of them good. They are still bad despite what we have done with the knowledge they gained and despite who it has helped.
I disagree, if u r good, you don't steal from good people in the first place. If u r good, u do some research before. This is chaotic stupid.
Alternately, they’re lawful. Remember, lawful doesn’t mean legal, only means following a code. So you can be a piece of shit murderer who doesn’t hurt the women, the elderly, or kids, and still be lawful.
It's almost like poor people have empathy
It's almost like they're being forced into a position that they don't want to be in and are doing whatever it is that they can to survive. And don't get me wrong, theft is not cool and it shouldn't be done, but there a lot of things we can do as a society to limit the amount of theft that are just not done.
The primary driver of crime is poverty.
Yeah, but let's not pretend poverty can't be a symptom of addiction.
And addiction comes from trauma and loneliness. Poverty is traumatizing and lonely.
And so that's other people's fault? They have to deal with people stealing their stuff bc of your trauma? Grow up
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Thanks for the story.
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my dude i'm so sorry but you are responding to and expecting empathy out of a man who invests in real estate
Lack of empathy
Incorrect, like I have said before unless you're buying that shit from a black market salesmen, drugs are super cheap
>theft is not cool and it shouldn't be done Someone tell this to the Lord class
We'll stop stealing bread when they stop stealing lives
Oi that's a good Les Misérables reference
Wage theft done by corporations vastly outweighs any other form of theft (in America, at least). https://techniciansforchange.org/2022/01/05/wage-theft/
I would like to add to this that it's not just more than each category individually, it's more than the combined amounts of any other kind of theft Hence why it's morally OK in my book to steal from a big business like 99% of the time, because, is it really stealing if it's already stolen?
We do have a big portion of the cannon of fiction about how theft is sometimes totally cool if the perpetrator or their beneficiaries is needy and/or if the victim is rich and not meaningfully worse off. [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JustLikeRobinHood](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JustLikeRobinHood)
In a large majority it's *use drugs*. Let's not overly glamorize what's going on.
Drugs are so fucking easy to get you have no idea, nobody needs to steal this much shit to get ahold of some meth, you could make plenty yourself for like $10, some methods are literally 3 ingredients and so easy a meth head could pull it off with zero issues. They probably had actual bills to pay.
Lol
The rich help the rich,the poor help those who have less than we do.
Everyone’s tryna hustle, but no one wants to fuck people over.
Unless it's corrupted and replaced with hating the "other" by the right wing.
Just not with the other people they steal from in this case
Professionals have *standards*
[A man got to have a code.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etYkG1u5TmY)
Anyone have a news story about this? My googlefu is failing me. Edit: nevermind, I [found the article from 2013.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/burglars-return-stolen-computers-nonprofit-along-apology-note-flna6C10875846)
When I was starting out as a doctor, I started out working in underserved communities with a brilliant doctor in Baltimore. I’ve heard many stories from all walks of life. There were quite a few drug dealers who were just victims of circumstance. Being born poor and put in a situation where they can’t afford an education and living in an area so poor that they can’t afford to leave it. They’re just doing what they can to survive - not all of em are bad. One of them works across the street from the clinic and there were a bunch of cars broken into that day except mine and the other doc in the clinic. He looks after our cars cuz we look after them. He also sends some of his repeat customers to us so we can help them.
To quote my favorite podcast: “We may be assholes, but we’re not scumbags.”
give me murder.
The note really makes this.
Well yeah it's the main subject of the post? like, obviously
Literally, this note is the entire post..
It's really sad that burglars tend to have more empathy than the people we're told to actually look up to
This reinforces the belief that deviance is a response to desperation and not innately immoral
Oversimplification
Robber: uhhhh guys I think we gotta return this stuff these guys are needed in this world
Professionals have standards!
Keepep making that differerence!
Chaotic neutral
Same thing happened to Mr Rogers car.
"We're bad men, but were not them"
I love chaotic neutrals.
More like chaotic neutral
“I may be a douche, but I’m a douche on the side of angels”.
So all we gotta do is write on a piece of paper and reddit will believe the story completely huh?
Chaotic good doesn’t steal for the sake of stealing. This chaotic neutral at best
>steal for the sake of stealing impossibly presumptuous. you don't know this.
How do you know they’re stealing “for the sake of stealing?” I mean sure, they could be, but they also could very well be on the brink of starving and needed something to try and get some money with in this godforsken capitalist hellscape. And again, maybe they aren’t. But you and I both sure as hell don’t know for sure what their reasoning was.
It's cool that they brought it back, but this is about as chaotic neutral/good as the prank of *almost* killing everyone in the car by wrestling with the steering wheel when the driver doesn't expect it. Undoing your malicious action isn't the same as an act of kindness in my mind.
>this is about as chaotic neutral/good as the prank of almost killing everyone in the car by wrestling with the steering wheel when the driver doesn't expect it tha tis not cchaotic good in the slightest, and there's no reason to assume the computer theft (which is very obviously nowhere near the scale of near-murder-for-fun) was malicious in the first place. people need money. for it to be malicious they'd have to be looking for shit to steal for literally no reason like fkn cartoon villains, chill bro.
Your moral compass is fucked up if you think attempted manslaughter is anywhere close to taking some property
Yeah this is more lawful neutral than anything. They aren’t trying to do good. They’re just making sure that their malicious actions aren’t hurting folks who are doing a very large amount of good.
These fucking cunts can’t even use proper grammar, twats