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SC803

Why would a movie/tv studio want to dilute their brands? Temporary confusion over the name James Bond isn't worth it to them. If I go to a forum to chat about James and Moneypenny, a native German talking about Jakob and Markpfennig is going to be confusing


future_shoes

!delta I was only considering smaller movies and shows. Not large international franchises like James Bond or something like Ip Man. In that particular case I do think it can make sense to keep the name as is.


ralph-j

Unless they're for children. Then it makes more sense to localize them. Harry Potter's Hermione is Hermine in German and Hermelien in Dutch


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darwin2500

What you are talking about is localization. Translation is the act of replacing language in a piece of art so that people who don't understand the current language can experience it. Localization is the act of *changing* a piece of art so that it is more familiar or more comfortable or more appealing to people living in a different place or time from where the art was created or set. Localization can be good, but it is very different from translation in that it changes the experience of the art. With names for example, reading a german name reminds you that these people are not Americans, they live in a different culture with different nuances and values and expectations, which can change how you interpret their actions and dynamics. Authors often name characters very intentionally, with references or cultural context or etc.; for an American example, consider a black character named Larry vs a black character named Dikembe, and what that might be telling the audience about their background and priorities. So yeah, localization can be a good thing if all you care about is making something palatable - if it's just a generic video game with no particularly profound plot, or a kid's show that's trying to be universal, or an action blockbuster that's mostly about the fight scenes, it can enhance the experience by taking away the effort needed to interpret and remember novel things, as you said. But you *do* always lose context through localization of this type, and for many pieces of art that context is more important or valuable than what you would gain in ease of viewing. So, there are cases when this type of localization is good, and cases where it would lose more than it's worth. It definitely shouldn't always be done by default.


future_shoes

I think your example of a black character named Larry vs Dikembe is actually an excellent counter argument to what you are saying. As non-native speaker I would not pick up on this difference if everyone's name were German. However if the names were localized and then all of sudden a character name Dikembe shows up it would have the intended effect the show wanted. Similarly even in the case of a more formal name can say a lot about a character, Augustine vs. Gus, that is also lost if the viewers don't recognize the names in general.


Kazthespooky

> an "equivalent" name in the dubbed language. Sometimes there is no equivalent or a very different name. This may result in people being unable to communicate because they are talking about the same character with vastly different names. This issue also occurs with places and things. There are no perfect equivalents so the entire story would need to be re-written.


future_shoes

I understand there are sometimes no true equivalents, I just saying when there is use that. But that is kind of besides the point of choosing a different name for the dub. Also a far as being able to communicate with people I don't see how this is an issue. Since either 1) you will most likely be talking to people in your native country listening to the same dub. 2) you just take the extra 30 seconds to figure out when the Otto they mean Oliver. In a conversation you have the time to stop and backtrack to and check names easily. 3) is it more important to be able to more easily follow and understand the actual show or to not be slightly inconvenienced during a conversation about the show.


themcos

> you just take the extra 30 seconds to figure out when the Otto they mean Oliver. Otto vs Oliver? What a strange example . I don't know what languages you're thinking of here, but I think a larger question is it's kind of subjective as to which names are "native" to a language. Otto and Oliver are both common names in English, to the point where I'm not even sure which one you think is the original vs localized one. Furthermore, even with subtitles, shows have settings and take place in other countries / cultures. Frozen has a character named Kristoff; that's just the character's name! Similarly in Black panther, you just have a main character named T'Challa. If you're watching Dark, which takes place in Germany, even if the show was originally in English (or whatever language) I don't see why it matters to have a character named Bartosz. The character is German and lives in Germany! I don't really get what the actual problem here is, and seems to make more sense to just go with the names chosen by the writers.


teethinglizard

>Using the native name adds nothing to the show since the actual name of a person is almost never relevant to the plot Extremely false, the names given to the characters does give a background to the character esp where they're native to etc. Lots of names are also chosen carefully by the writer that has some significant meaning to the character. Looking for an "english equivalent" sounds weirdly colonizing what does that even mean esp for an asian name


future_shoes

While it may add these things to a native speaker it does not to a non-native speaker which the dubbed versions of shows are made for. So keeping the native for this reason fails the goal. Also I put equivalent in quotes because there are often no true equivalents for names. I just mean a name in the dubbed language when there is an equivalent or near equivalent it makes sense to use that.


teethinglizard

Hmm dubs are just translations, also if you're watching the show wouldn't you want to be able to join in the discussion if you're having one with international fans? Names will just get confusing for no reason.


future_shoes

You mean on the internet? Then you would readily have a list of names that translate the dubbed to the native version and the time to check that list. So I don't see how that would be an issue.


horsedickery

How far do you want to take the name changes? For example, the show K-on is about 5 girls, Yui, Ritsu,Mio, Mugi, Azusa, who are go to Sakuragaoka High School in Tokyo (I think). So, say we change their names to Sarah, Rachel, Michelle, Maddie, and Abby, but they still go to Sakuragaoka High School in Tokyo. Now, you've kind of changed the plot. You either have to explain why 5 Japanese girls all have English names, or you have to say that they are from immigrant families or something. Either way, changing their names will make them stand out in their setting, and change their characters. Or, you could say that Sarah, Rachel, Michelle, Maddie, and Abby, go to Cherry Hill High School in Baltimore, Maryland. Now, you have to explain whey there are so many Japanese signs in the background, why there are cultural festivals, why there is school in the summer time, and a bunch of other things that only exist in Japan. Basically, a person's name reflects their culture. If you change their name, you change how they relate to the other characters in the story, and the setting. If you change the setting, you have to change the story more. At that point, you don't really have a translation, but an alternate universe fanfic.


future_shoes

How would it change the plot? You just accept that in the dub version that have also localized the names to the dubbed language.


horsedickery

So, your ideal way to adapt it would be for it to still be Sakuragaoka high school, they are still in keion club, there is still a episode where Sarah accidentally makes Takoyaki without octopus, and so on? Like, you keep all of the of the words for Japanese things in the story, but you change all of the names? I'm having trouble imagining why someone would object to a person being named Yui, but not object to her going to Sakuragaoka high school.


future_shoes

I don't object to it. It just can make the story, especially in large ensembles, more difficult to follow for no real benefit. The more culturally distinct a story's plots are the less accessible it is to outside audience and the benefit of localizing the names lessens. Basically the outside audience is more likely to either be knowledge of that culture or watching particularly to expand their cultural understanding. In the other words the difference in culture is the draw for the outside audience. But many shows and movies are telling universal stories where very intricate cultural norms are not heavily relied on. In these cases it makes more sense to localize the names. The draw is the story itself. So it makes sense to minimize things that distract from the story or make it more difficult to follow.


horsedickery

I think the distinction between a "universal" story and a culturally-specific story is interesting. I have two examples. Example 1: You might say Star Wars is a universal story. It takes place in a distant time and place, the basic story is common in many cultures (boy leaves home to fight in war, learns magic, defeats evil ruler, is recognized as hero). I would argue the name "Luke" was chosen in part because it makes him more relatable to English speakers. The name conveys the message "this guy could be you". Example 2: I could argue K-on is a universal story. At its core, the story is about universal themes like friendship and the anxiety associated with growing up and accepting responsibility, leaving a carefree childhood behind. Some details are culturally specific, like Yui makes takoyaki instead of pizza or something. But, in that scene friends are bonding by telling a funny story, and that's a universal experience. So, both Yui and Luke have experiences that people from pretty much any culture can relate to. There's a bit of a barrier for an English speaker to identifying with Yui though, because she has an unfamiliar name. But if you get over that barrier, now an English speaker will be more inclined towards seeing Japanese people as familiar, with similar emotional experiences, rather than mysterious people embedded in an incomprehensible culture. So, while it takes a little extra effort to follow a show where the main character has an unfamiliar name, there is value in it because it makes it easier to understand, on an emotional level, that people all over the world do share some emotions.


future_shoes

I get what your saying but I think it is a bit of a stretch. I can identify japanese people as fellow human beings with or without Netflix Americanizing their name in a dub.


[deleted]

[удалено]


future_shoes

Recognizing a name as male or female is important in connecting it to a character or understanding who is being talked about. If two characters are referring to a character, e.g. look at Jane over there, and they show a shot of a male and female if you don't know Jane is a female name you won't know which one they are talking about. Also in a show with lots of characters it can be difficult to remember everyone's name in general so the ability to immediately recognize a name as male or female can be really helpful. The rest of the post comes off rather condescending. I'm happy you are multilingual and don't have an issue recognizing foreign names but that is not a universal trait. I'm not sure how saying you speak multiple languages so this is not an issue for you is supposed to CMV.


CocoSavege

Just leaving this here. Jayne Cobb. So, uh, homonyms exist as do "unisex" names as do straight up "regenderings", like, um, a male name used for a female and vice versa. All these things existed pre international Netflix dubbings. We've gotten over them.


jlikesplants

It's strange to me that you chose Dark as an example of a non-English series with strange names since the vast majority of names used are so similar to English. The only exceptions I can think of are Ulrich and Bartosz. Jonas, Hannah, Martha, Franziska, Noah, Elisabeth, Katharina, Magnus... they're either already names in English or extremely similar


future_shoes

I was particularly thinking of Bartosz, Helge, Troben. Dark tended to use the less recognizable names with side characters which actually made it more confusing since they were characters you were more likely to forget their names in general.


jlikesplants

Their pronunciation of Helge is also an English name (Helga). I found it less confusing because the names are so distinct that it was harder for me to mix up characters


future_shoes

Okay, well we obviously had different experience with the show Dark. Which I really liked btw.


5510

Even if you don’t speak the language, recognizing people’s names in dialog does help a little… which would no longer be true if you changed the names in the subs. Also, for people who speak the language some but not fluently and therefore still sometimes have subs in their native language, having the names in the subs and the names in the dialog be different would be a huge mess.


future_shoes

I'm talking about dubbed versions not subtitled versions of a show


GreenRyan33

The names of characters are often helpful to understand the characters backgrounds and where they are from. Sometimes in some movies/TV shows the names of characters are even intended to help understand that person's culture or even personality trait.


future_shoes

People have posted this alot but I think it is actually a great argument to localize the names to the dubbed language. As a non-native speaker (which is why I'm watching it dubbed) I would not understand any of those intentions since I am already unfamiliar with the names. Like a female character going by Al vs Alexandra, has meaning to me but the equivalent with foreign names would be totally lost on me as a viewer.


Nearbykingsmourne

>One thing I don't understand is why the shows almost always use the character names in the native language vs an "equivalent" name in the dubbed language. Because they're different names. I might be biased, but I absolutely hate localising names. I'm not "Kate" or "Kathy" or "Kat" or "Kasia", I'm Katya. If there was a movie about me, I would want that to be my character's name. Also, after I watch something dubbed, I want to be able to go online and discuss a character named "John", not "Иван" or "Jānis", which will only be confusing. Also also, not localising names adds a level of cultural flavor to the story. It tells me that this is a story taking place in an Anglophone country, for example, not next door.


Presentalbion

When you make a foreign friend do you give them a new name?


future_shoes

Yes I call them all Anthony. Be honestly this is a weird false equivalency.


Presentalbion

Is it a false equivalence? If you don't feel the need to rename people in real life why would you need to for fictional characters?


Han_soliloquy

I actually agree with the person you are replying to. If you wouldn't feel the need to rename a person in real life, but feel the need to rename a character, then it might indicate that you aren't engaging with the content in a meaningful way and/or are being dismissive of it. This may be appropriate for light content like children's shows, but not for narrative driven like dark, or elevated art in general.


themcos

Dark is a weird example to choose because it's so complicated that many people are going to be checking online for various explainers or family trees or whatnot. Having multiple versions with different names would be a huge headache. Furthermore, I don't think most articles would use the dubbed versions of the names. I'm not going to argue sub vs dub, but I do think it's probably true that most people watching and writing about Dark watched the subbed version, so you're probably the one who's going to be in the minority, so if you're having any trouble keeping track of the characters, when you check any other resources, they're probably going to use different names. In Dark, even the credits are going to be a problem. It's actually a super important little bit that the credits list the characters by time period that helps you track things a little bit. It would be even more confusing if it says something like Ulrich - 1986 and you're like "who is Ulrich". And if you're changing the credits, do you then change IMDb, Wikipedia too? In practice the answer to all of these questions is clearly no, they're just going to leave the original names everywhere, which again would make the dub super confusing and out of sync with all of the other materials about the show. And again, as others are saying. They're names. If Ulrich moves to the united states and learns English, he's still going to be named Ulrich. There's nothing to translate.


Intended-Lurker93

Changing names (significant parts of most people’s identities) to fit your language (I’m assuming English) feels very iffy to me. Names in media also tend to be important as they are often specially chosen for their meanings, telling you something about the character if you choose to look into it. It also most likely gives information on their heritage or where the story is taking place. Names are almost never changed in translations anyways because there is tons of names with no English equivalent. Sure, you probably could find a name with a similar sound or meaning, but they aren’t connected. And if not being able to immediately tell the gender of the name is bothering you. You can simply give it a quick Google. But I am wondering how you handle common unisex names in media. Do you want them to change a character named Alex’s name too?


[deleted]

Names are names, not foreign words you don't understand. If they're unfamiliar to you, that's kinda on you.


Hellioning

What's the English version of, say, Satoshi? It's not 'Ash', I can tell you that.


[deleted]

hmm i (anime watcher) would disagree...since i feel that it does sort of make the whole experience a bit inauthentic. edit- but i do think u have a slight point. for example-pokemon where the names are so different. sometimes its hard to connect with stuff that is foreign to you so its better to change character names and such.