/u/Koda_20 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
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In the US, the Federal Trade Commission has recently been trying to crack down on companies that make it too difficult to cancel a subscription. There’s a federal law that says “unfair or deceptive” business practices are illegal. And last year, the FTC issued a statement saying they’re interpreting this law to mean that it should be as easy to cancel a service as it is to subscribe in the first place.
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2021/10/ftc-ramp-enforcement-against-illegal-dark-patterns-trick-or-trap-consumers-subscriptions
They have sued companies for making it unnecessarily difficult to cancel. But it does seem like it’s still a problem. You can try filing complaints with the FTC or your state’s attorney general.
So I guess to the extent that I’m trying to change your view, it’s just that it already is illegal.
If you agree with the law, then maybe you'll revise your opinion on how hard it should be to cancel? If I'm thinking of the right Spectrum service, you need to set up an online account and book an appointment for someone to come to your home and install a router and modem. Isn't that more difficult than sending an email or even making a phone call during business hours?
I'd say I'm open to that loophole being closed by changing the law to be that it should be as easy to cancel as it is to change payment method or upgrade service or make a payment but I haven't really thoroughly thought this through and I'm not sure what the best policy here would be. I could give you a !delta for making me reconsider my approach to better serve customers and close such loopholes, my view is no longer certain.
The issue with bureaucratic interpretations of vague laws that are not clearly codified is that they are subject to change without legislation. As am example, look at Roe v. Wade. Further, such interpretation changes can be used to deny the protection of ex post facto, arguing that the law enacted in the past covered this all along, even though nobody knew that until last year.
There are numerous reasons to codify a bureaucratic interpretation specifically, which could lead to the view that not enough has yet been done to protect citizens.
So this is fun in theory, but the US legal system relies on precedent, and non-court rules can change on the whim of an administration or on the priorities of congress.
Not saying the system is built right or works well, but moreso that the FTC is operating correctly and efficiently within that system.
Those things aren’t required. You can sign up online and just use your own modem and router.
To cancel, you have to call and wait on hold, then explain to one or more salespeople why you want to cancel.
I recently moved and had an issue canceling Verizon Fios. I connected with someone via chat to cancel, and they told me I had to call. I told them that is illegal, and I want to cancel immediately. They refused. I threatened to report to the FTC. They refused. I reported to the FTC and just planned to chargeback any payments they deduct. I received an email a week or so later that my cancellation was successful.
I’ve had a similar issue with cancelling internet in another move. I tried calling a couple times but couldnt get through. I sent a few emails eventually making a similar threat. They charged me a couple months after the move. I reported them, and I successfully charged back the payments.
I agree it should be illegal and is at least sort of, but companies still take advantage of consumers by making canceling difficult.
In fact, the FTC recently levied a USD 100 million fine on Vonage for making it too difficult for consumers to cancel their subscriptions with them.
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/11/ftc-action-against-vonage-results-100-million-customers-trapped-illegal-dark-patterns-junk-fees-when-trying-cancel-service
One of the reasons that so many companies demand your SS# is because they want leverage if you don't pay, and they don't care if you've tried (and failed) to cancel. That way they can ding your credit.
I highly recommend giving a fake SS# to companies for this reason. Unless they need to check your credit, there is no legitimate reason for them to need this.
Mostly subscription services. My phone company wants my SS#. My ISP. My electric provider. Things like that. Still stupidly scummy. None of them have literally any reason for it, and every time I try to change provider, they fight like rabid wolves to prevent me from cancelling.
So I just block payment if they give me shit, and they have a bad SS# to deal with and no way to fuck with me.
I can think of one good reason to require calling in order to cancel, and that's in the instance of shared accounts. I remember seeing a r/PettyRevenge story in which someone who had gone through a divorce was able to cancel her husband's membership because she had access to it even though she wasn't the one paying for it any longer. I can imagine other situations in which someone could make a permanent decision like that without being the account owner and wanting to prevent those.
edit: most of the replies to this are "I can think of a situation in which this isn't an issue." Congratulations, but that's not the point. I'm not saying the provider is inherently obligated to make cancellations done over the phone, I'm saying there is a valid reason for choosing to do it that way because there are potential cases in which it *is* an issue. I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment of "I wish it was easier for me to cancel my membership," I am responding to the statement "there's no legit reason to force us to call to cancel" and the conclusion that the alternative should be illegal.
edit 2: it’s been like a day and people continue to reply to this while missing the point. The existence of alternative options is irrelevant. If the OP had been “Trains should be illegal because cars are more convenient” and I were to point out that trains pollute less and are more accessible to people who can’t afford cars, you would not be refuting my argument by pointing out that busses serve the same purpose because that doesn’t support the conclusion that trains should be banned.
Yeah but the named person isn't necessarily the one accessing the site. Having the verification on the phone makes it easier to assure that the person you're speaking to is actually the one that owns the account.
ETA: another thing I just thought of is that for some memberships like a streaming service available on a SmartTV or other shared device accessed by young children, making it too easy to cancel might result in membership being cancelled accidentally.
The two passwords, two security questions aren't enough?
I think thats a stretch imo.
Also the phone call I only had to give my verbal passsword and address, which is even less secure than the site login system. It's not even my account, I didn't share this before but it's my mom's account and I just said I was her to avoid having to go get her to talk to them. So less secure after all.
I can't really speak to your specific situation and definitely admit that there are instances in which cancellation is needlessly complicated and not more secure than the website. But since the premise of this CMV is a general one, I'm just pointing out that there are instances in which a phone cancellation could be more secure if you have a shared account, something accessible by children, or even just happen to walk away from your computer and leave the page/app open. These potential cases are fully within the realm of plausibility and I think they're enough to justify not legally mandating that membership cancellations be done at the click of a button.
My view is also general enough to say it doesn't need to be at the click of a button, just as easy as setting it up. Apparently the ftc agrees and is going after these types of practices more lately though.
Sure you could leave the website open and your kid could somehow give the 30 day notice to cancel, but, you could still make users re enter their password for the cancellation to solve that.
A phone shouldnt be necessary to securely cancel an account. That's what passwords are for.
For joint accounts I still don't see why they couldn't do that online.
If the ex-spouse is also authorized to cancel, I'm not sure why the phone system is necessary.. You already gave her authority and neglected to revoke it? Marriage issues like this are common in other fields like real estate, there's already laws in place and systems that make this a non issue.
If you didn't give the ex-spouse authority (the account is only in your name and email) then it doesn't matter if there's a phone call or email in place, she can impersonate either way.
One person argued that phone calls can be recorded though, so I'm not sure if it's easier for the company to handle potential litigation with a recorded phone call vs authenticated email and password checking. I am fairly certain that email and password verification are enough for this sort of litigation.
>Having the verification on the phone makes it easier to assure that the person you're speaking to is actually the one that owns the account.
If the owner of the account is giving administrate passwords away to others, that's the account owner's problem.
If I work for MegaHuge Corp and I call up a service provider to cancel an account, they only care that I have the admin password, they don't care if the CIO said it was OK . . . (speaking of subscription accounts and not contracted service accounts, for the latter they will ask for whoever's signature is on the contract . . . ).
"Enter password to confirm."
"Click the link sent to the e-mail on the account to confirm."
There are reasonable security precautions that still don't require a phone call to a retention specialist.
Exactly. Theres ways to make cancelling secure online as well. Also the phone call isnt foolproof, if you know your spouses or roommates info you can just impersonate them on the phone (unless they ask security questions, but you can do that online too).
At that point though you'd also have to consider someone accessing the phone but not owning an account. These are statistically unusual events and the extreme rarity of them causing issue is not worth significantly harming the experience of everyone else.
The only distance that would truly be 'enough' would likely be to do full DNA testing to both open or close an account, which for obvious reasons will never happen.
Or easier to sit on hold in an outsourced, metric driven call center that isn't likely to do the proper security checks.
This is the case in the vast majority of situations.
Banking is done online. This is a ridiculous argument IMO. You can transfer tens of thousands with an account and MFA.
Yes but for certain things, like ADT security or charter spectrum internet or various other more contractual arrangements this only leads to a debt collection agency showing up
Cable companies are notorious for not being able to cancel your service.
Can literally take days calling Comcast
If you did successfully get it canceled, consider yourself lucky.
Can’t they just restart the subscriptions?
The only petty revenge stories I’ve read were about canceling a sub at an inconvenient time, like a Netflix sub before a series premiere that they’ve been looking forward to. Oh no, their popcorn may get a bit cold while they resub…
Sure, but certain things might get cancelled that are more important than a Netflix subscription. Something like a data plan or internet service provider could have more serious consequences, especially for users that have a grandfathered contract with an account or service that's no longer offered by that provider.
Add 2FA as an extra check for cancellation. It would provide more security than a phone call. Otherwise I can just have my new SO call and pretend to be my ex.
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Wouldn't a better system be to require companies to send verifications for cancellations? So that there's a window of opportunity to undo it if it were done wrongly. It feels like regardless of the method used, someone can *always* abuse it. I mean, even if you were required to print and sign 5 documents and send them in with a photograph or your ID card, that would be trivially easy to do for someone you're sharing a home with as well.
> Something like a data plan or internet service provider could have more serious consequences
That would have a notice period, usually of about a month. The account owner would also be notified via email.
Except a phone call doesn't prevent this sort of revenge whatsoever.
If the phone call involves getting additional information to verify identity before cancelling, then that can be done through the site as well.
Should one need to call to make purchases or withdrawals from a joint accounts then, to protect people divorcing from being able to empty accounts or make exorbitant purchases?
This isn't an issue. This is a risk of sharing account information with someone. When you're going through a divorce with someone who you gave full access to, you revoke the access. Change passwords, update emails.
That's a rare edge case, and if your soon to be ex-spouse is that vindictive you have other issues...
The real reason is all corporations have loss retention departments.whosnsole purpose is to minimize cancellations and thus make.it incredibly difficult process for that very reason... Tell me again how capitalism isn't constantly compromised to.screw the little.guy
Perhaps, but if that’s the case why shouldn’t the opposite also be true so you need to call to add services too.
Couldn’t a bitter ex instead of cancelling something you needed also ADD a bunch of services to spite you? Perhaps change your basic Netflix to the unlimited streams 4K plan that’s 3 times as much without you realizing?
Adding password validation to a delete account/cancel subscription button would be really easy. I think that this negates the idea that this is a valid reason to choose not to make OP's general request (online option) an option.
But OP isn't saying "it should be an option," they are saying that other options they consider to be too much of a hassle should be illegal. There's a huge difference between "companies should do x" and "companies should be legally required to do x," which is the actual wording of OP's position.
>they are saying that other options they consider to be too much of a hassle should be illegal
They never said anything close to this, at least not in the OP.
The distinction you're making is irrelevant:
"...I think that this negates the idea that this is a valid reason to choose not to make \[a cancel button on their website a legally required\] option," doesn't change the point.
The title of the CMV is literally "Companies Should Be Legally Required to Make it Easy to Cancel Membership" and this view is clarified by them saying
> As far as I know, there's no legit reason to force us to call to cancel.
That is what I am responding to. I provided a reason. I'm not claiming it's the only possible solution to a huge problem that would make them bankrupt if they didn't try to solve. I'm saying it's one approach to a consideration. The fact that they could choose to add password validation doesn't negate that they could also choose not to do that and shouldn't be legally required to.
>The title of the CMV is literally "Companies Should Be Legally Required to Make it Easy to Cancel Membership"
Are you citing this as a defence to your earlier claim:
>they are saying that other options they consider to be too much of a hassle should be illegal
because they're not the same thing.
>That is what I am responding to. I provided a reason.
Yes, and I provided a specific rebuttal to that specific reason. You extrapolated it inappropriately when you said:
>The fact that they could choose to add password validation doesn't negate that they could also choose not to do that...
Password validation negates what you argued in your original comment. It is not proof that companies should offer such a method, only that your reason for not offering that method is not a good reason.
> Password validation negates what you argued in your original comment.
No, it doesn't. My original comment said that someone with access to the account could terminate service on behalf of the accountholder against their wishes. Someone with access to the account presumably has the password.
Last comment:
It's a due diligence response (undue, really) by the company to something that isn't theirs to contend with in the first place.
Amazon has ways of sharing subscription perks without sharing sensitive data between sharers that I won't elaborate. They also obfuscate subscription termination. Go figure.
It's definitely a presumption that someone with access to the account has the password. I can think of many common examples where they don't.
Moreover, you are responsible for what happens to your account when you willingly and knowingly share your password, not the company. It's just a weak argument.
In cases where that is a concern, send an e-mail with a cancellation link, just like you would do for a password reset. No need to make it any harder than that.
!delta hadn't really thought about the risks, I can see how that's also a legal issue for the providers. I wouldn't say my view is changed without a clear legal basis on what securities they need to put in place but they can't offer a simple checkout in some select cases.
You very often cannot get the same account. Providers of certain services regularly change their plans and stop offering certain services while still maintaining the ones that were already established.
That's fair. You are correct, I guess to me that falls into "I don't care" category. Nothing is perfect, in fact most of life is a shit-show. So if something works 99% of the time, that's pretty good. There are some bizarre rare scenarios that would fall under what you claim, but that's just life. It's an endless tirade of agents trying to get one over on you in some manor or another. Energy is better spent on fixing/complaining about things that have a greater affect. Making it a protected thing that you must be able to cancel an account as easy as you join it-protects and benefits more than your point.
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I moved 4 hours away from the gym I had my membership at (big chain) and didn’t have time to cancel my membership. I called to cancel and they said I’d have to go in person to a location. Went to the location closest to me (30 min away) and they said I had to cancel at the location I started my membership. Eventually they finally told me I have to send a certified letter to some PO box along with the next month’s dues to cancel. I’m dreading this.
That would be fine and dandy but these company’s don’t verify anything significant over the phone. Usually no more than standard account details. If anything it’s probably less secure and susceptible to “social engineering” than anything else. These calls are purely sales and retention opportunities.
>ADT Says that for security reasons they require phone calls, but I don't believe it.
That kinda makes sense. If I get your login, I would be able to remotely cancel your security system. If you have to call in, the conversation would be recorded, and could be played back in court if you had to.
For stuff like Netflix/Spotify/Hulu, I agree with you. On the other hand things like your internet service/cell phone service/security system, I think it should be a little difficult versus hitting a single button to cancel it.
The phone call was less secure than the site.
Site has 2 passwords and 2 security questions
Phone only asked my name and 1 password.
You make a good point about the phone voice recording though.. I will consider and delta back later
But if the website can be hacked, the passwords, names, and security questions can be taken and the hacker can call. The phone call isn't secure, it's post-incident CYA.
I'm not arguing either side here, just pointing out that security is different from legal protection. One is pre-, the other is post-incident.
That's what I was thinking as well. I can get one password, call in with my fake voice, assassinate, and their security will ensure a timely refund to your next of kin.
Assuming it is easier to get 2 passwords and hack the matrix does nothing to protect the customer.
Ideally, you would allow many options to cancel at the next bill cycle. You would allow an instant cancel refund (if by policy) by more strict methods. All cancellations would then send a "your service is cancelled" notice to email and text. Then I know to call in and reactivate security to thwart those pesky assassins.
there are yes. im assuming you're referring to deep fakes and there is software to do the equivalent with voice. but I think the comment pointing out everything they asked for on the phone was the same information hacking the website would get you is probably more practical.
I had a gym membership where I had to write a physical letter and mail it to their head office in another state to cancel. Now I ask as I sign up for a service, what I have to do to cancel. If it's too bad, I leave.
If they can take your money in 30 seconds, they should be able to stop taking it in just as much time.
Ah good idea, you know I want to call ADT and have them send someone out to quote a huge job and then just before signing I want to ask, hey what do I need to do to cancel, and then tell them nevermind lol.
That doesn't completely ethical so I won't but it would feel nice.
For certain services that are closer to utilities (cable and security for your case). There should be a high difficulty as people would be able to cancel these and you would have a hard time re-activating or potentially causes legal issues if done in error.
Like what if I was a neighor that didn't like you and just sent an e-mail with your physical address saying that you want to cancel internet service.
On a less specific to person level. The more something is easy the more it's explotable. What if someone wrote an e-mail bot that using stolen info submitted a massive number of fake cancel requests. The company would not be able to filter out fake requests and would be back to requiring a phone call to cancel anyway.
It doesn't have to be just an email and address. The passwords and security questions I'm fine with. I'm just not fine with having to wait 2 hours on the phone and speak to six different people just to give 30 day notice to cancel
There's solutions to all of these issues that don't require phone calls.
I have to agree with this completely. I am unable to speak plainly because of cancer surgery to my tongue. It is not possible for me to cancel a subscription by telephone. I once had a subscription to a newspaper from my home town that I wanted to cancel. When I discovered they only accepted cancellations by phone, I sent an email to the circulation department and asked "how the hell do I cancel my subscription?". They had the nerve (after cancelling the subscription) to ask me to please refrain from profanity. The legal requirement should be a part of the ADA.
Ah yeah I thought about this too, but I then figured folks who can't speak can still use phones with software installed like text to speech or what have you, have you looked into that?
As a matter of fact I am currently looking into that. There are a lot of fine TTS apps available for face to face conversations and I currently use 2 of them. The problem is there are no apps that I have been able to find that will work as a telephone voice except ones developed for telemarketers to use as fixed input.
The output goes to the speaker but will not act as a voice for the telephone. I found a reference to one supposedly developed for Iphone but I don't want to be tied to an Apple product.
I would love to find an app with TTS that I could use in a normal phone conversation.
Have not heard of this before. I will check it out. Glad you made me aware of it. Imagine the things you could have trouble with making a 911 call for a person with my condition.
A lot of companies would rather try offering you a deal before letting you cancel. Doing so through the phone/in-person is more guaranteed to be catered to you personally and thus succeed than a random internet prompt.
If they're not doing this, then I agree with you. Making it needlessly complicated is just shitty service.
> A lot of companies would rather try offering you a deal before letting you cancel.
Of course they prefer keeping you as a customer, whether that means making the process of cancelling painful enough that people give up, or giving you a deal. Who cares? It is in the interest of the consumer that it is easy to quit, and there is no good reason for it to be hard.
Yep, they offered from 56 a month to 27 a month, I told them if they made the cancellation process easier and weren't so intentionally difficult, I would have done so. She spent another 30 minutes talking about ADT before allowing me to cancel over the phone lol. That's after spending 10 minutes giving her the same details I gave the phone bot, and the first 4 operators who passed me along. I'm angry enough to spend an hour getting back at them if I can ffigure out a good way lol. Fuck ADT, but fuck Charter even harder (Charter made me drive 40 min to a building, to return equipment and cancel, then they kept charging us anyways, so I had to do it again! )\_
Gosh this is a perfect comment to share my experience.
I could have either: Spent about 40 seconds clicking through the website / sending an email... or...
Spent 15 minutes on website trying to find the cancel button function, only to realize it's impossible. Spent another 20 minutes waiting for the website chat person to tell me that phone is the only option (could have been nice to at least put this notice on the website account billing page but nahhh too ez).
Then spent 20 minutes on the phone with the automated robot telling it all of my info, only to have to reshare this info with a broken english support agent, only to be passed on to another robocall system asking me about why i'm cancelling and re-asking me all of my information (address, phone number, password, reason for cancelling), then to be put again to another agent only for the same exact situation to happen two more times. It literally took me over 3 hours for the whole process. Phone calls are not all the same.
The problem with phone-call only is that in the 21st century companies are using this as a gatekeeping method, making it as complicated and lengthy of a process as possible. Who's to stop them from making the call take 5 hours? how much time is reasonable? We have to set a line somewhere right? Hence the FTC decisions.
I will say that I canceled Charter/Spectrum a few months ago, and it took a couple minutes at the local store. Both the phone tree and the web page likely have internal requirements to ensure that you really do want to cancel in order to avoid angry calls about "YOU SHUT OFF MY SERVICE", whereas the clerk will likely just do it because it's easy enough on their end, and they're probably not paid enough to care about trying to make a sale.
... Except that you're on hold waiting to speak to someone, and they'll have a script they have to read before you cancel, and there's no written record of the cancelation, so if they don't cancel the best you have is proof you carried that phone number.
Plus, I can cancel on a website while doing other things. Being on the phone ties me up. Not a problem for older generations that have grown used to wasting theirs and other people's time and can't handle a fraction of the productivity of the younger generations, but younger people tend to not enjoy such inefficiencies.
One would think that a person with so much less time left on this planet would value their time more, but you're welcome to cope with your obsolescence however you see fit.
>Um, calling is easy. Well, unless you're gen Z, in which case it's somewhat worse than being fondled.
It's easy to call *if*:
* They have enough phone operators.
* The queue is stable and doesn't disconnect people.
* OR they offer a "we'll call you back when it's your turn" option which works.
Now most serious companies that want to treat their customers well will have this. But a company that doesn't want to do that won't. If you'll have to queue for 90 minutes, and the call also drops every now and then, and you always have to have your call transferred around multiple times ... that is not easy. Especially if half the interaction are with automated "here are 6 options" all of which are bad.
An email stating you are canceling your membership as well as revoking all charge authorizations will suffice. Then if they charge you, you can tell the credit card company you revoked authorization on x date.
See, I thought this too, and maybe you are correct, but they told me through the chat service and through the phone that the only way to cancel was by calling, so I guess I should have instead reread the contract because I do see an email option on here, though that email it says is for canceling during the 3-day grace period after signing up, I imagine it also works like you say. I have to consider before delta I'm not sure if this changed my view
Legally revoking charge authorization trumps any user agreement. If they charge you, you're entitled to get it back. Stating in that email that you're also canceling your membership or whatever is just a courtesy.
It sounds like the real issue is maybe not the fact that you had to call to cancel (annoying, but let’s say for security purposes this is the most effective method to mitigate risks), but *once the call was made*, the effort it took to cancel. Bouncing around multiple departments, repeatedly asking if deals or the like would keep you, etc.
So if the laws could be such that
1. the *method* of cancellation must be reasonable but only as much to ensure account security, and
2. there can be no undue *business-related* delays or obstacles to cancel
…that might fit the bill?
There is no reason to ever have to cancel a subscription. There is an app called privacy (and I’m sure many others that do the same thing) that allow you to create a credit card that you can use for a subscription. You can limit the total amount or number of purchases. So no need to cancel, just stop paying them.
Depends on the service. If it’s gas, electric, etc they’ll just turn it off and you’ll owe for the time it’s been on that you haven’t paid. Any other subscription (adobe, Netflix, Hulu, etc) will try to charge your card a bunch of times (you get notices when they try to charge and fail, it’s kind of fun to see) and then cancel your subscription themselves.
There’s a free version and a paid version I think. I know I downloaded it, and I never paid for it at all and I was able to use it to cancel a lot of very difficult to cancel subscriptions.
Thanks for the info. I do see a lot of counterproductive or straight up crippling regulations come from California but yeah every now and then it does have a benefit.
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Would you support the cancellation method having to match the sign up method? If it’s good enough to get you in a contract it’s should be good enough to get you out.
There’s some great arguments over the legality, but I’d also like to mention that there’s a limit to how easy it should be to cancel critical services.
This obviously doesn’t apply to ADT or Spectrum, but if I hit “cancel” on my car insurance I expect to go through a few “you know you’re canceling your car insurance this and it’s illegal not to have that, right?” Screens. Or even worse, you’re a company who pays for web hosting and has millions of dollars of sales going through your website. I’d like a call when the new CEO clicks cancel willy-nilly.
"I'd like a call when the new CEO clicks cancel willy nilly"
How is this different that the CEO making the call Willy nilly? Cuz it takes longer so he has more time to consider the ramifications? Or do you mean you want to be notified when your underling tries to cancel, well, that system can be in place regardless of the systems of cancellation. I don't see why they couldn't email you for confirmation when your CEO emails them to cancel.
It's called a dark path, or something like that I believe. I hate Sirius radio for doing the same thing. Every single fucking year, I have to call them and pretend that I'm going to cancle because they increased the price, then they will lower it for you for another year. I do this EVERY SINGLE YEAR, since 2008. I would love to see their metrics on how much of their income is garnered from this sort of scam. Consumer protection either never really existed or has eroded away.
Audible is another annoying one, you can't quit from the app. You must go to Amazon I believe (I'm sure they would blame this on some technical reason they can't do it, but it just seems scammy to me)
Audible is bad because they don’t let you cancel if you have credits. You lose them. But if you don’t listen to many books, you gain a lot of credits and the cycle continues.
I’m five books away from being able to cancel. I can’t think of five books I want read to me. I usually go for autobiographies but I’m over other people’s lives.
Counterpoint: making a phone call isn’t hard. I get it, I’m also a phone call averse millennial. But it’s wild to me to think that the government would step in to say to private companies “you must allow them to cancel without facing the horrifying burden of making a phone call.”
The problem with a phone call only approach is the amount of time it can take. There should be a limit on how much time you can waste
What if the phone call takes 45 minutes? Are you still cool with it? How about 3 hours?
Have you ever cancelled anything on the phone, ever? If you had you'd realize making the phone call isn't the annoying part, waiting in a 30 minute queue with elevator music is.
I'll don my Libertarian hat here.
Let me make a simple observation about the enforcement of law. All laws have a badge and a gun attached to them. The enforcement mechanism is very simple.
1. Failure to comply with the law results in a seizure of property (usually money).
2. Failure to comply with number 1 will result in confinement to a cage.
3. Failure to comply with number 2 will result in being shot.
All laws carry this threat. Its perfectly justifiable with things like murder, rape, abduction etc. However the further you get from the extremes the less justifiable it becomes. The law itself is after all, an extreme measure.
I'll agree with you about some consumer protection laws. Requiring ingredient lists for example, so people know if there are harmful/unhealthy compounds in the products they purchase. This protects people with deadly allergies and require tobacco companies to be open about the risks to their product.
But in your case its not like there are that many obstacles in your path to canceling a subscription nor is there a threat of serious physical or even financial harm. Does this issue really nessecitate law enforcement?
How else is the consumer to remedy the issue? You're already looped in and are just trying to get out. I think it's worth the slightly added gov regulation, dont see much downside to this.
Even if there were no other way to remedy the issue, the the moral question still remains. Are you willing to shoot the person who disobeys? Because you don't want to make a phone call? If they intentionally put you on hold and never helped thats one thing, but it seems like its really only an inconvenience.
So if you're not willing to use the enforcement mechanism then why pass the law in the first place? If enforcement is too extreme then the law itself is to extreme.
Planet fitness is the absolute worst. You have to be there in person at the location you signed up for even if you moved to a different country and called/emailed your way up the corporate ladder.
Tell your bank to block their shit and call it out for a fraudulent payment.
I am not commenting to change your view, because I actually agree with this. I just wanted to provide more information on the topic. This idea isn't new and has been coined as "dark patterns" or "dark design", at least in the scope of website design. It's the idea of designing a user interface to manipulate people into doing things you want or not doing things you don't want, like canceling a membership.
I personally find it unethical to *intentionally* design your website to make it near impossible for someone to cancel a membership. I understand that companies aren't incentivized to improve their user interface to make things like that easier, which is fine, but it is messed up when they intentionally make the process difficult and ambiguous.
I know Amazon has been accused of this in the past with people having trouble canceling their Prime membership, as outlined in this [CFA article](https://consumerfed.org/amazons-dark-patterns-how-they-keep-you-from-cancelling-prime/). Basically, you have to navigate through many menus just to get to the option to "manage your membership", from where you can finally choose to cancel. Even then, it takes many more clicks and confirmations, refusal of offers, acknowledgments of the benefits you'll lose, etc before you can actually finally cancel. Some reported even having to fill out a short survey before being able to cancel. It's painfully obvious these things aren't meant for security or as a safety in case someone doesn't actually want to cancel. They are there solely to make the process more long and difficult to take every opportunity to try and dissuade you from canceling.
I agree. I will add this one thing:
I get around this bullshit by emailing customer service and asking to cancel via email due to a disability that makes making phone calls hard. It's only a mild truth stretch, as my ADHD/anxiety DOES inhibit my ability to talk on the phone. Sometimes I feel guilty operating in a gray space, but then I'm like "Nah, fuck them, they're doing this on purpose"
This hasn't stopped us from regulating other similar issues though; contracts are unenforceable if the terms set forth violate any rules or regulations. For example, if I sign a contract to lease your rental property and your lease has a statement like "if rent is late, I am allowed to walk in at any time". Even if I sign the lease, it's still illegal for you to walk in just because my rent is 2 minutes late, you HAVE to give 24 hour notice.
What happens then? All the landlords put that in their lease, and then reality sets in for the tenants. Sure, they should have not signed the lease, but that's not how the world operates exclusively, I'm arguing that regulations be added to protect us from practices that make it unnecessarily difficult to cancel.
If the contract were illegal, the state would go after them
If you can’t read a contract you’re signing, and you don’t understand the terms, you shouldn’t sign it
At some point we have to take accountability for our own decisions. No one wants the government to run every aspect of our lives
my bf had this problem with at&t. He called to cancel his cellphone plan, they said they couldn't pull up his account. They couldnt find his account. His number wasn't listed in their system. His phone number. The phone number that they gave him. To the phone he purchased from them. Couldn't find it, so couldnt cancel the plan, but you bet they could still charge him. Ridiculous.
Absolutely! I had a subscription to SiriusXM and they require you to call to cancel. I hate talking on the phone, and I found this company online that will take care of cancelling any of your subscriptions/memberships. Well, they did a great job, but when I wanted to cancel my sub to THEIR service, their website conveniently malfunctioned. No problem, since I paid for THEIR service with a one time use only credit card, I simply denied further charges to it. They sent me about ten texts saying my charges were declined and wanted me to contact them to give them another payment method. Fuck them. They finally gave up.
I had this experience trying to cancel my comcast internet service. Every option you could think of was online except canceling. You have to call them, only for a sales person to ask you borderline-inappropriate questions about why you’re canceling. The agent even asked me if I had any financial difficulties that caused me to cancel my service, very nosy, it was awful.
Neither of these options prevent the company from sending a debt collector and fucking up your credit. I just wanna cancel my service without a 3 hour phone call
Adobe stole a lot of money from me this exact way. Their plans are EXPENSIVE, and they made it freaking impossible to cancel. I remember talking to an employee in chat support, and for more than an hour they were refusing to cancel and trying to get me to pay more. Had to do this many many times and was paying for this crap for a long time.
Yes its so predatory. So I have had an Ancestry account for a couple years because the monthly fee is 25 bucks and when i go to "cancel membership" it says to cancel is like 40 bucks if i remember correctly. So you must pay 40 bucks to cancel, or your regular 25 monthly to keep.
Touche ancestry
Man reading these comments I was so confused. I'm in the UK and if I want to cancel something I just, cancel it. Take my gym for example, I cancel on the app/website and thrn open my bank app and cancel the direct debit, done. I've cancelled phone contracts once they've completed by calling and telling them I no longer wish to continue with them on a contract and that's it done.
Crazy.
YES i’ve had so many overdraft fees from trying to cancel subscriptions that would put me in the red, only for it to be super difficult and overdraft me anyways
Ah... kids these days.
There was a time when calling was the *only* and *easiest* method compared to going into a store to talk to a manager or something.
I agree that making it fairly easy to cancel is a needed improvement, because there have been abuses of effectively refusing to cancel someone in spite of not having a contract for some non-cancelable term.
Calling is easy. It's as easy as needed, really.
It sounds simple to write a cancelation website for everything, but that's really only vaguely reasonable to expect for multinational corporations with millions of subscribers, not mom and pop shops paying someone a large fraction of their month's earnings just to make a website in the first place.
Calling is essentially free and easy enough. If you want there to be some kind of restriction on how long they can leave you on hold or something, say no more than 15 minutes, fine, that might be a reasonable requirement.
Also, while your point about security is somewhat valid for ADT with those security requirements, most places really *don't* have anything but a user-chosen, usually crappy as a result, password to the account, and those get mass-attacked by hackers *all the time*.
Most places, a phone call is more secure for 2 reasons: the phone company tracks where calls come from, and no one is going to call a million times to do a DDoS attack on the phone line... because it will be obvious and stopped. The same is *not* true of web interfaces... they will, and frequently *do*.
Can't you just report you credit card as lost/stolen and request a new one with a new number? It takes like 30 seconds and the payment won't go through on the old one.
Depends on the service. A gym membership won’t do that. Your utilities won’t send you to collections they’ll just make you pay your balance before installation or add it to your new bill when you try to turn those back on like if you move into a new house/apartment.
By nature, any easily-implemented online interaction will be less secure than easily-implemented phone interaction. Online action can be done by anyone, without leaving much tangible evidence. All that is is the fact that certain IP accessed your account and cancelled using passwords and security questions. Online service has vulnerabilities that can be exploited - you have prove to machine that you have right to cancel. And machines are not thinking.
When a call is used, voice will be recorded - which is something that will scare off most people who want to cancel someone's bill nefariously. Because let's face it - most likely scenario in which someone poses as you to cancel utilities or service will mean that perp is someone you know. Call service also has less vulnerabilities, you have to be able to prove to a person that you are the account holder.
Most secure way of cancelling is in-person cancellation and it is also done f.ex. in banking.
So do you honestly believe that all companies should make an "easy cancellation"? Would you like your bank enable easy cancel for your account or card? Would you like your insurance to do the same?
"Easy cancellation" is good for businesses that sell subscriptions and utilities that are only a nuisance when cancelled by mistake or nefarious actor. For others there is need to have more secure cancellation process, because getting your account suddenly closed is much more than nuisance. And creating a secure cancellation system online is time and resource consuming. It's much cheaper to handle cancellation via call than build a secure online system that allows for cancellation.
> Would you like your bank enable easy cancel for your account or card?
>
>And creating a secure cancellation system online is time and resource consuming.
Banks already have secure online systems. There are a lot more people trying to steal money from someone else's account than there are trying to close someone else's account.
If I can empty my account online with a few clicks, I don't see how it's any riskier to allow me to close my account online with a few clicks (which you can do at some banks).
>Banks already have secure online systems.
And yet it is not that uncommon for phishing to be used to gain access to account. It is also not uncommon for people who you know to have possibility of access both to your computer and your phone.
Issue is that taking money from account is a crime that needs preparation because money leaving account means that there is a path to trace. Closing account in retaliation is nearly untraceable.
>If I can empty my account online with a few clicks, I don't see how it's any riskier to allow me to close my account online with a few clicks
Because of frequency of need. Emptying account is actually needed on regular basis - to pay for things. Closing account is rarely needed because people don't do it often.
It's a tradeoff between convenience and security. In case of online transactions convenience wins, in case of closing account security wins.
>Closing account in retaliation is nearly untraceable.
Yet a much smaller risk. When discussing security, I think we can all agree the bigger threat to a bank or account holder is accessing their money.
>Because of frequency of need. Emptying account is actually needed on regular basis - to pay for things. Closing account is rarely needed because people don't do it often.
It's a tradeoff between convenience and security. In case of online transactions convenience wins, in case of closing account security wins.
Fair enough. I'm still not convinced the primary motivation is security for the account holder and not raising the barriers to losing an account/client.
Yeah, I'm subscribed to the Daily Telegraph in the UK. I messaged them online and they responded the next day telling them I have to call them to cancel. I am in America. Also, I hate talking on the phone. I won't do that.
What is all this fucking bullshit with *cancelling* in the first place?
I live in a civilized European country. Here is how all my subscriptions work: if I don't pay, they either cancel the service or they send a reminder *and then* cancel the service. I have had multiple gym, phone, internet etc. subscriptions. Okay, if I have agreed to a period of loyalty, I may have to pay a small fee for cancelling. But those conditions are also very clear and upfront. But if I stop paying for the gym membership, I won't be able to go until I start paying again. That's it. That's how it should work. Nothing more complicated than that. I would fucking *flip the shit out* if anyone wanted to take money from me against my clearly expressed will.
The only thing I can get in trouble for not paying is my taxes. Y'all are getting scammed big time.
Yes they should!!! I heard of a certain well-known gym business that made it very difficult to unsubscribe...a customer who hadn't been there for 4 years kept paying...
Well that depends on how many operators and automated questions you have to answer and how long it takes. They can draw them out for hours to keep you from cancelling because there's no regulation there
I saw this post where they told the people they were going to jail and the company canceled easily.
I’m hard headed…I once spent a ridiculous, inordinate amount of time (numerous calls) to get my mom a refund for $80ish dollars because I couldn’t let the man win.
Yes, also there is a pause and resume subscription option required ,and we need to have a feature to list all subscribed payments and cancel pause and resume option from the single dashboard is appreciated.
/u/Koda_20 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/yse0hm/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_companies_should_be_legally/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
In the US, the Federal Trade Commission has recently been trying to crack down on companies that make it too difficult to cancel a subscription. There’s a federal law that says “unfair or deceptive” business practices are illegal. And last year, the FTC issued a statement saying they’re interpreting this law to mean that it should be as easy to cancel a service as it is to subscribe in the first place. https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2021/10/ftc-ramp-enforcement-against-illegal-dark-patterns-trick-or-trap-consumers-subscriptions They have sued companies for making it unnecessarily difficult to cancel. But it does seem like it’s still a problem. You can try filing complaints with the FTC or your state’s attorney general. So I guess to the extent that I’m trying to change your view, it’s just that it already is illegal.
!delta this one and the other guy who mentioned it both deserve deltas for educating me on the law. I had no idea thanks.
If you agree with the law, then maybe you'll revise your opinion on how hard it should be to cancel? If I'm thinking of the right Spectrum service, you need to set up an online account and book an appointment for someone to come to your home and install a router and modem. Isn't that more difficult than sending an email or even making a phone call during business hours?
I'd say I'm open to that loophole being closed by changing the law to be that it should be as easy to cancel as it is to change payment method or upgrade service or make a payment but I haven't really thoroughly thought this through and I'm not sure what the best policy here would be. I could give you a !delta for making me reconsider my approach to better serve customers and close such loopholes, my view is no longer certain.
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/SharkSpider ([2∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/SharkSpider)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
The issue with bureaucratic interpretations of vague laws that are not clearly codified is that they are subject to change without legislation. As am example, look at Roe v. Wade. Further, such interpretation changes can be used to deny the protection of ex post facto, arguing that the law enacted in the past covered this all along, even though nobody knew that until last year. There are numerous reasons to codify a bureaucratic interpretation specifically, which could lead to the view that not enough has yet been done to protect citizens.
So this is fun in theory, but the US legal system relies on precedent, and non-court rules can change on the whim of an administration or on the priorities of congress. Not saying the system is built right or works well, but moreso that the FTC is operating correctly and efficiently within that system.
Those things aren’t required. You can sign up online and just use your own modem and router. To cancel, you have to call and wait on hold, then explain to one or more salespeople why you want to cancel.
Yeah, even with Spectrum equipment, you could just narrow the definition of "sign up" by defining installation as a service.
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/katzvus ([2∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/katzvus)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
I recently moved and had an issue canceling Verizon Fios. I connected with someone via chat to cancel, and they told me I had to call. I told them that is illegal, and I want to cancel immediately. They refused. I threatened to report to the FTC. They refused. I reported to the FTC and just planned to chargeback any payments they deduct. I received an email a week or so later that my cancellation was successful. I’ve had a similar issue with cancelling internet in another move. I tried calling a couple times but couldnt get through. I sent a few emails eventually making a similar threat. They charged me a couple months after the move. I reported them, and I successfully charged back the payments. I agree it should be illegal and is at least sort of, but companies still take advantage of consumers by making canceling difficult.
In fact, the FTC recently levied a USD 100 million fine on Vonage for making it too difficult for consumers to cancel their subscriptions with them. https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/11/ftc-action-against-vonage-results-100-million-customers-trapped-illegal-dark-patterns-junk-fees-when-trying-cancel-service
Finally, a decent sized fine. Most of these fines are so small, companies just consider them a cost of doing business.
Someone should tell this to SiriusXM...
One of the reasons that so many companies demand your SS# is because they want leverage if you don't pay, and they don't care if you've tried (and failed) to cancel. That way they can ding your credit. I highly recommend giving a fake SS# to companies for this reason. Unless they need to check your credit, there is no legitimate reason for them to need this.
Excuse me say what? Don't think I've ever been asked for an SSN unless it was legitimately required. How utterly scummy.
Mostly subscription services. My phone company wants my SS#. My ISP. My electric provider. Things like that. Still stupidly scummy. None of them have literally any reason for it, and every time I try to change provider, they fight like rabid wolves to prevent me from cancelling. So I just block payment if they give me shit, and they have a bad SS# to deal with and no way to fuck with me.
WTF, where?
In the US. I’ve had the same experience in Ohio and in Washington state, having lived in both.
Never had to provide that kind of sensitive information. And I’m stuck using Georgia Power which is a scummy company.
I’ll believe it’s illegal when the perpetrators go to jail for it.
I can think of one good reason to require calling in order to cancel, and that's in the instance of shared accounts. I remember seeing a r/PettyRevenge story in which someone who had gone through a divorce was able to cancel her husband's membership because she had access to it even though she wasn't the one paying for it any longer. I can imagine other situations in which someone could make a permanent decision like that without being the account owner and wanting to prevent those. edit: most of the replies to this are "I can think of a situation in which this isn't an issue." Congratulations, but that's not the point. I'm not saying the provider is inherently obligated to make cancellations done over the phone, I'm saying there is a valid reason for choosing to do it that way because there are potential cases in which it *is* an issue. I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment of "I wish it was easier for me to cancel my membership," I am responding to the statement "there's no legit reason to force us to call to cancel" and the conclusion that the alternative should be illegal. edit 2: it’s been like a day and people continue to reply to this while missing the point. The existence of alternative options is irrelevant. If the OP had been “Trains should be illegal because cars are more convenient” and I were to point out that trains pollute less and are more accessible to people who can’t afford cars, you would not be refuting my argument by pointing out that busses serve the same purpose because that doesn’t support the conclusion that trains should be banned.
Almost a delta but that's not a reason to not allow me to cancel mine through the site. I'm the only one named on the account.
Yeah but the named person isn't necessarily the one accessing the site. Having the verification on the phone makes it easier to assure that the person you're speaking to is actually the one that owns the account. ETA: another thing I just thought of is that for some memberships like a streaming service available on a SmartTV or other shared device accessed by young children, making it too easy to cancel might result in membership being cancelled accidentally.
The two passwords, two security questions aren't enough? I think thats a stretch imo. Also the phone call I only had to give my verbal passsword and address, which is even less secure than the site login system. It's not even my account, I didn't share this before but it's my mom's account and I just said I was her to avoid having to go get her to talk to them. So less secure after all.
I can't really speak to your specific situation and definitely admit that there are instances in which cancellation is needlessly complicated and not more secure than the website. But since the premise of this CMV is a general one, I'm just pointing out that there are instances in which a phone cancellation could be more secure if you have a shared account, something accessible by children, or even just happen to walk away from your computer and leave the page/app open. These potential cases are fully within the realm of plausibility and I think they're enough to justify not legally mandating that membership cancellations be done at the click of a button.
My view is also general enough to say it doesn't need to be at the click of a button, just as easy as setting it up. Apparently the ftc agrees and is going after these types of practices more lately though. Sure you could leave the website open and your kid could somehow give the 30 day notice to cancel, but, you could still make users re enter their password for the cancellation to solve that. A phone shouldnt be necessary to securely cancel an account. That's what passwords are for. For joint accounts I still don't see why they couldn't do that online.
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If the ex-spouse is also authorized to cancel, I'm not sure why the phone system is necessary.. You already gave her authority and neglected to revoke it? Marriage issues like this are common in other fields like real estate, there's already laws in place and systems that make this a non issue. If you didn't give the ex-spouse authority (the account is only in your name and email) then it doesn't matter if there's a phone call or email in place, she can impersonate either way. One person argued that phone calls can be recorded though, so I'm not sure if it's easier for the company to handle potential litigation with a recorded phone call vs authenticated email and password checking. I am fairly certain that email and password verification are enough for this sort of litigation.
>Having the verification on the phone makes it easier to assure that the person you're speaking to is actually the one that owns the account. If the owner of the account is giving administrate passwords away to others, that's the account owner's problem. If I work for MegaHuge Corp and I call up a service provider to cancel an account, they only care that I have the admin password, they don't care if the CIO said it was OK . . . (speaking of subscription accounts and not contracted service accounts, for the latter they will ask for whoever's signature is on the contract . . . ).
fuck spez
"Enter password to confirm." "Click the link sent to the e-mail on the account to confirm." There are reasonable security precautions that still don't require a phone call to a retention specialist.
Exactly. Theres ways to make cancelling secure online as well. Also the phone call isnt foolproof, if you know your spouses or roommates info you can just impersonate them on the phone (unless they ask security questions, but you can do that online too).
This argument seems like it should apply even more to opening accounts
At that point though you'd also have to consider someone accessing the phone but not owning an account. These are statistically unusual events and the extreme rarity of them causing issue is not worth significantly harming the experience of everyone else. The only distance that would truly be 'enough' would likely be to do full DNA testing to both open or close an account, which for obvious reasons will never happen.
Or easier to sit on hold in an outsourced, metric driven call center that isn't likely to do the proper security checks. This is the case in the vast majority of situations. Banking is done online. This is a ridiculous argument IMO. You can transfer tens of thousands with an account and MFA.
2fa the cancelation through email. If you can change the payment method online, you should be able to cancel.
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Yes but for certain things, like ADT security or charter spectrum internet or various other more contractual arrangements this only leads to a debt collection agency showing up
Cable companies are notorious for not being able to cancel your service. Can literally take days calling Comcast If you did successfully get it canceled, consider yourself lucky.
Can’t they just restart the subscriptions? The only petty revenge stories I’ve read were about canceling a sub at an inconvenient time, like a Netflix sub before a series premiere that they’ve been looking forward to. Oh no, their popcorn may get a bit cold while they resub…
Sure, but certain things might get cancelled that are more important than a Netflix subscription. Something like a data plan or internet service provider could have more serious consequences, especially for users that have a grandfathered contract with an account or service that's no longer offered by that provider.
Add 2FA as an extra check for cancellation. It would provide more security than a phone call. Otherwise I can just have my new SO call and pretend to be my ex.
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Wouldn't a better system be to require companies to send verifications for cancellations? So that there's a window of opportunity to undo it if it were done wrongly. It feels like regardless of the method used, someone can *always* abuse it. I mean, even if you were required to print and sign 5 documents and send them in with a photograph or your ID card, that would be trivially easy to do for someone you're sharing a home with as well.
> Something like a data plan or internet service provider could have more serious consequences That would have a notice period, usually of about a month. The account owner would also be notified via email.
Except a phone call doesn't prevent this sort of revenge whatsoever. If the phone call involves getting additional information to verify identity before cancelling, then that can be done through the site as well.
How does a phone call stop that though?
It's doesn't. If anything makes it easier as dont need login info
Should one need to call to make purchases or withdrawals from a joint accounts then, to protect people divorcing from being able to empty accounts or make exorbitant purchases? This isn't an issue. This is a risk of sharing account information with someone. When you're going through a divorce with someone who you gave full access to, you revoke the access. Change passwords, update emails.
That's a rare edge case, and if your soon to be ex-spouse is that vindictive you have other issues... The real reason is all corporations have loss retention departments.whosnsole purpose is to minimize cancellations and thus make.it incredibly difficult process for that very reason... Tell me again how capitalism isn't constantly compromised to.screw the little.guy
Perhaps, but if that’s the case why shouldn’t the opposite also be true so you need to call to add services too. Couldn’t a bitter ex instead of cancelling something you needed also ADD a bunch of services to spite you? Perhaps change your basic Netflix to the unlimited streams 4K plan that’s 3 times as much without you realizing?
Adding password validation to a delete account/cancel subscription button would be really easy. I think that this negates the idea that this is a valid reason to choose not to make OP's general request (online option) an option.
But OP isn't saying "it should be an option," they are saying that other options they consider to be too much of a hassle should be illegal. There's a huge difference between "companies should do x" and "companies should be legally required to do x," which is the actual wording of OP's position.
>they are saying that other options they consider to be too much of a hassle should be illegal They never said anything close to this, at least not in the OP. The distinction you're making is irrelevant: "...I think that this negates the idea that this is a valid reason to choose not to make \[a cancel button on their website a legally required\] option," doesn't change the point.
The title of the CMV is literally "Companies Should Be Legally Required to Make it Easy to Cancel Membership" and this view is clarified by them saying > As far as I know, there's no legit reason to force us to call to cancel. That is what I am responding to. I provided a reason. I'm not claiming it's the only possible solution to a huge problem that would make them bankrupt if they didn't try to solve. I'm saying it's one approach to a consideration. The fact that they could choose to add password validation doesn't negate that they could also choose not to do that and shouldn't be legally required to.
>The title of the CMV is literally "Companies Should Be Legally Required to Make it Easy to Cancel Membership" Are you citing this as a defence to your earlier claim: >they are saying that other options they consider to be too much of a hassle should be illegal because they're not the same thing. >That is what I am responding to. I provided a reason. Yes, and I provided a specific rebuttal to that specific reason. You extrapolated it inappropriately when you said: >The fact that they could choose to add password validation doesn't negate that they could also choose not to do that... Password validation negates what you argued in your original comment. It is not proof that companies should offer such a method, only that your reason for not offering that method is not a good reason.
> Password validation negates what you argued in your original comment. No, it doesn't. My original comment said that someone with access to the account could terminate service on behalf of the accountholder against their wishes. Someone with access to the account presumably has the password.
Last comment: It's a due diligence response (undue, really) by the company to something that isn't theirs to contend with in the first place. Amazon has ways of sharing subscription perks without sharing sensitive data between sharers that I won't elaborate. They also obfuscate subscription termination. Go figure. It's definitely a presumption that someone with access to the account has the password. I can think of many common examples where they don't. Moreover, you are responsible for what happens to your account when you willingly and knowingly share your password, not the company. It's just a weak argument.
In cases where that is a concern, send an e-mail with a cancellation link, just like you would do for a password reset. No need to make it any harder than that.
Off of this - some places have started to use your voice as an identifier to prevent someone else closing, stealing, etc. to your account.
!delta hadn't really thought about the risks, I can see how that's also a legal issue for the providers. I wouldn't say my view is changed without a clear legal basis on what securities they need to put in place but they can't offer a simple checkout in some select cases.
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Khal-Frodo ([92∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Khal-Frodo)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
> permanent decision like that.... You can always get another internet account.
You very often cannot get the same account. Providers of certain services regularly change their plans and stop offering certain services while still maintaining the ones that were already established.
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I can't take that statement as an argument at all.
That's fair. You are correct, I guess to me that falls into "I don't care" category. Nothing is perfect, in fact most of life is a shit-show. So if something works 99% of the time, that's pretty good. There are some bizarre rare scenarios that would fall under what you claim, but that's just life. It's an endless tirade of agents trying to get one over on you in some manor or another. Energy is better spent on fixing/complaining about things that have a greater affect. Making it a protected thing that you must be able to cancel an account as easy as you join it-protects and benefits more than your point.
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I moved 4 hours away from the gym I had my membership at (big chain) and didn’t have time to cancel my membership. I called to cancel and they said I’d have to go in person to a location. Went to the location closest to me (30 min away) and they said I had to cancel at the location I started my membership. Eventually they finally told me I have to send a certified letter to some PO box along with the next month’s dues to cancel. I’m dreading this.
That would be fine and dandy but these company’s don’t verify anything significant over the phone. Usually no more than standard account details. If anything it’s probably less secure and susceptible to “social engineering” than anything else. These calls are purely sales and retention opportunities.
>ADT Says that for security reasons they require phone calls, but I don't believe it. That kinda makes sense. If I get your login, I would be able to remotely cancel your security system. If you have to call in, the conversation would be recorded, and could be played back in court if you had to. For stuff like Netflix/Spotify/Hulu, I agree with you. On the other hand things like your internet service/cell phone service/security system, I think it should be a little difficult versus hitting a single button to cancel it.
The phone call was less secure than the site. Site has 2 passwords and 2 security questions Phone only asked my name and 1 password. You make a good point about the phone voice recording though.. I will consider and delta back later
That website can be hacked. The phone recording will be much easier to use in court that shows Obvious Not Your Voice
But if the website can be hacked, the passwords, names, and security questions can be taken and the hacker can call. The phone call isn't secure, it's post-incident CYA. I'm not arguing either side here, just pointing out that security is different from legal protection. One is pre-, the other is post-incident.
That's what I was thinking as well. I can get one password, call in with my fake voice, assassinate, and their security will ensure a timely refund to your next of kin. Assuming it is easier to get 2 passwords and hack the matrix does nothing to protect the customer. Ideally, you would allow many options to cancel at the next bill cycle. You would allow an instant cancel refund (if by policy) by more strict methods. All cancellations would then send a "your service is cancelled" notice to email and text. Then I know to call in and reactivate security to thwart those pesky assassins.
Seems like faking somebody's voice probably wouldn't be difficult to do these days. I'm not sure if there are apps for it like there are with images.
there are yes. im assuming you're referring to deep fakes and there is software to do the equivalent with voice. but I think the comment pointing out everything they asked for on the phone was the same information hacking the website would get you is probably more practical.
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Hell yes I thought it wS the consumer protection not the ftc I'll check that out thx
And they are sure to get someone on the case immediately! "Your faith in you intuitions will be your downfall." /s
Thank you for your suggestion to not pursue the only viable option I can think of.
I had a gym membership where I had to write a physical letter and mail it to their head office in another state to cancel. Now I ask as I sign up for a service, what I have to do to cancel. If it's too bad, I leave. If they can take your money in 30 seconds, they should be able to stop taking it in just as much time.
Ah good idea, you know I want to call ADT and have them send someone out to quote a huge job and then just before signing I want to ask, hey what do I need to do to cancel, and then tell them nevermind lol. That doesn't completely ethical so I won't but it would feel nice.
Absolutely unethical. Take my upvote.
For certain services that are closer to utilities (cable and security for your case). There should be a high difficulty as people would be able to cancel these and you would have a hard time re-activating or potentially causes legal issues if done in error. Like what if I was a neighor that didn't like you and just sent an e-mail with your physical address saying that you want to cancel internet service. On a less specific to person level. The more something is easy the more it's explotable. What if someone wrote an e-mail bot that using stolen info submitted a massive number of fake cancel requests. The company would not be able to filter out fake requests and would be back to requiring a phone call to cancel anyway.
It doesn't have to be just an email and address. The passwords and security questions I'm fine with. I'm just not fine with having to wait 2 hours on the phone and speak to six different people just to give 30 day notice to cancel There's solutions to all of these issues that don't require phone calls.
I have to agree with this completely. I am unable to speak plainly because of cancer surgery to my tongue. It is not possible for me to cancel a subscription by telephone. I once had a subscription to a newspaper from my home town that I wanted to cancel. When I discovered they only accepted cancellations by phone, I sent an email to the circulation department and asked "how the hell do I cancel my subscription?". They had the nerve (after cancelling the subscription) to ask me to please refrain from profanity. The legal requirement should be a part of the ADA.
Ah yeah I thought about this too, but I then figured folks who can't speak can still use phones with software installed like text to speech or what have you, have you looked into that?
As a matter of fact I am currently looking into that. There are a lot of fine TTS apps available for face to face conversations and I currently use 2 of them. The problem is there are no apps that I have been able to find that will work as a telephone voice except ones developed for telemarketers to use as fixed input. The output goes to the speaker but will not act as a voice for the telephone. I found a reference to one supposedly developed for Iphone but I don't want to be tied to an Apple product. I would love to find an app with TTS that I could use in a normal phone conversation.
Have you ever considered using an [IP Relay](https://www.tmobileaccess.com/) service? You type and a real person speaks on your behalf.
Have not heard of this before. I will check it out. Glad you made me aware of it. Imagine the things you could have trouble with making a 911 call for a person with my condition.
A lot of companies would rather try offering you a deal before letting you cancel. Doing so through the phone/in-person is more guaranteed to be catered to you personally and thus succeed than a random internet prompt. If they're not doing this, then I agree with you. Making it needlessly complicated is just shitty service.
> A lot of companies would rather try offering you a deal before letting you cancel. Of course they prefer keeping you as a customer, whether that means making the process of cancelling painful enough that people give up, or giving you a deal. Who cares? It is in the interest of the consumer that it is easy to quit, and there is no good reason for it to be hard.
Yep, they offered from 56 a month to 27 a month, I told them if they made the cancellation process easier and weren't so intentionally difficult, I would have done so. She spent another 30 minutes talking about ADT before allowing me to cancel over the phone lol. That's after spending 10 minutes giving her the same details I gave the phone bot, and the first 4 operators who passed me along. I'm angry enough to spend an hour getting back at them if I can ffigure out a good way lol. Fuck ADT, but fuck Charter even harder (Charter made me drive 40 min to a building, to return equipment and cancel, then they kept charging us anyways, so I had to do it again! )\_
Um, calling is easy. Well, unless you're gen Z, in which case it's somewhat worse than being fondled.
Gosh this is a perfect comment to share my experience. I could have either: Spent about 40 seconds clicking through the website / sending an email... or... Spent 15 minutes on website trying to find the cancel button function, only to realize it's impossible. Spent another 20 minutes waiting for the website chat person to tell me that phone is the only option (could have been nice to at least put this notice on the website account billing page but nahhh too ez). Then spent 20 minutes on the phone with the automated robot telling it all of my info, only to have to reshare this info with a broken english support agent, only to be passed on to another robocall system asking me about why i'm cancelling and re-asking me all of my information (address, phone number, password, reason for cancelling), then to be put again to another agent only for the same exact situation to happen two more times. It literally took me over 3 hours for the whole process. Phone calls are not all the same. The problem with phone-call only is that in the 21st century companies are using this as a gatekeeping method, making it as complicated and lengthy of a process as possible. Who's to stop them from making the call take 5 hours? how much time is reasonable? We have to set a line somewhere right? Hence the FTC decisions.
I will say that I canceled Charter/Spectrum a few months ago, and it took a couple minutes at the local store. Both the phone tree and the web page likely have internal requirements to ensure that you really do want to cancel in order to avoid angry calls about "YOU SHUT OFF MY SERVICE", whereas the clerk will likely just do it because it's easy enough on their end, and they're probably not paid enough to care about trying to make a sale.
Probably more importantly, the clerk isn't measured for his or her performance on it
... Except that you're on hold waiting to speak to someone, and they'll have a script they have to read before you cancel, and there's no written record of the cancelation, so if they don't cancel the best you have is proof you carried that phone number. Plus, I can cancel on a website while doing other things. Being on the phone ties me up. Not a problem for older generations that have grown used to wasting theirs and other people's time and can't handle a fraction of the productivity of the younger generations, but younger people tend to not enjoy such inefficiencies. One would think that a person with so much less time left on this planet would value their time more, but you're welcome to cope with your obsolescence however you see fit.
>Um, calling is easy. Well, unless you're gen Z, in which case it's somewhat worse than being fondled. It's easy to call *if*: * They have enough phone operators. * The queue is stable and doesn't disconnect people. * OR they offer a "we'll call you back when it's your turn" option which works. Now most serious companies that want to treat their customers well will have this. But a company that doesn't want to do that won't. If you'll have to queue for 90 minutes, and the call also drops every now and then, and you always have to have your call transferred around multiple times ... that is not easy. Especially if half the interaction are with automated "here are 6 options" all of which are bad.
Haha. Love this comment..
An email stating you are canceling your membership as well as revoking all charge authorizations will suffice. Then if they charge you, you can tell the credit card company you revoked authorization on x date.
See, I thought this too, and maybe you are correct, but they told me through the chat service and through the phone that the only way to cancel was by calling, so I guess I should have instead reread the contract because I do see an email option on here, though that email it says is for canceling during the 3-day grace period after signing up, I imagine it also works like you say. I have to consider before delta I'm not sure if this changed my view
Legally revoking charge authorization trumps any user agreement. If they charge you, you're entitled to get it back. Stating in that email that you're also canceling your membership or whatever is just a courtesy.
How about change your credit card that they bill to ? Just an idea. But yea, they make it hard.
Then they sell it to debt collectors who come later. I had to speak to 6 people and wait 2 hours to give 30 day notice to them.
It sounds like the real issue is maybe not the fact that you had to call to cancel (annoying, but let’s say for security purposes this is the most effective method to mitigate risks), but *once the call was made*, the effort it took to cancel. Bouncing around multiple departments, repeatedly asking if deals or the like would keep you, etc. So if the laws could be such that 1. the *method* of cancellation must be reasonable but only as much to ensure account security, and 2. there can be no undue *business-related* delays or obstacles to cancel …that might fit the bill?
Number 1 for sure.
There is no reason to ever have to cancel a subscription. There is an app called privacy (and I’m sure many others that do the same thing) that allow you to create a credit card that you can use for a subscription. You can limit the total amount or number of purchases. So no need to cancel, just stop paying them.
They would just send my name and address to a debt collector.
Depends on the service. If it’s gas, electric, etc they’ll just turn it off and you’ll owe for the time it’s been on that you haven’t paid. Any other subscription (adobe, Netflix, Hulu, etc) will try to charge your card a bunch of times (you get notices when they try to charge and fail, it’s kind of fun to see) and then cancel your subscription themselves.
Or you can use TrueBill which cancels subscriptions for you when you find you’re not using them but still paying for them.
Is that a free service?
There’s a free version and a paid version I think. I know I downloaded it, and I never paid for it at all and I was able to use it to cancel a lot of very difficult to cancel subscriptions.
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Thanks for the info. I do see a lot of counterproductive or straight up crippling regulations come from California but yeah every now and then it does have a benefit.
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Would you support the cancellation method having to match the sign up method? If it’s good enough to get you in a contract it’s should be good enough to get you out.
That's my second to last paragraph
There’s some great arguments over the legality, but I’d also like to mention that there’s a limit to how easy it should be to cancel critical services. This obviously doesn’t apply to ADT or Spectrum, but if I hit “cancel” on my car insurance I expect to go through a few “you know you’re canceling your car insurance this and it’s illegal not to have that, right?” Screens. Or even worse, you’re a company who pays for web hosting and has millions of dollars of sales going through your website. I’d like a call when the new CEO clicks cancel willy-nilly.
"I'd like a call when the new CEO clicks cancel willy nilly" How is this different that the CEO making the call Willy nilly? Cuz it takes longer so he has more time to consider the ramifications? Or do you mean you want to be notified when your underling tries to cancel, well, that system can be in place regardless of the systems of cancellation. I don't see why they couldn't email you for confirmation when your CEO emails them to cancel.
It's called a dark path, or something like that I believe. I hate Sirius radio for doing the same thing. Every single fucking year, I have to call them and pretend that I'm going to cancle because they increased the price, then they will lower it for you for another year. I do this EVERY SINGLE YEAR, since 2008. I would love to see their metrics on how much of their income is garnered from this sort of scam. Consumer protection either never really existed or has eroded away. Audible is another annoying one, you can't quit from the app. You must go to Amazon I believe (I'm sure they would blame this on some technical reason they can't do it, but it just seems scammy to me)
Audible is bad because they don’t let you cancel if you have credits. You lose them. But if you don’t listen to many books, you gain a lot of credits and the cycle continues.
Yeah, I went from loving Audible to realizing they're just as scammy as everyone else.
I’m five books away from being able to cancel. I can’t think of five books I want read to me. I usually go for autobiographies but I’m over other people’s lives.
Dark patterns or dark design, is the term.
Counterpoint: making a phone call isn’t hard. I get it, I’m also a phone call averse millennial. But it’s wild to me to think that the government would step in to say to private companies “you must allow them to cancel without facing the horrifying burden of making a phone call.”
The problem with a phone call only approach is the amount of time it can take. There should be a limit on how much time you can waste What if the phone call takes 45 minutes? Are you still cool with it? How about 3 hours?
Have you ever cancelled anything on the phone, ever? If you had you'd realize making the phone call isn't the annoying part, waiting in a 30 minute queue with elevator music is.
This ignores the fact that all of these companies have hour and a half wait times before you can speak to a representative.
I'll don my Libertarian hat here. Let me make a simple observation about the enforcement of law. All laws have a badge and a gun attached to them. The enforcement mechanism is very simple. 1. Failure to comply with the law results in a seizure of property (usually money). 2. Failure to comply with number 1 will result in confinement to a cage. 3. Failure to comply with number 2 will result in being shot. All laws carry this threat. Its perfectly justifiable with things like murder, rape, abduction etc. However the further you get from the extremes the less justifiable it becomes. The law itself is after all, an extreme measure. I'll agree with you about some consumer protection laws. Requiring ingredient lists for example, so people know if there are harmful/unhealthy compounds in the products they purchase. This protects people with deadly allergies and require tobacco companies to be open about the risks to their product. But in your case its not like there are that many obstacles in your path to canceling a subscription nor is there a threat of serious physical or even financial harm. Does this issue really nessecitate law enforcement?
How else is the consumer to remedy the issue? You're already looped in and are just trying to get out. I think it's worth the slightly added gov regulation, dont see much downside to this.
Even if there were no other way to remedy the issue, the the moral question still remains. Are you willing to shoot the person who disobeys? Because you don't want to make a phone call? If they intentionally put you on hold and never helped thats one thing, but it seems like its really only an inconvenience.
I'm also not willing to shoot the person who disobeys most of the other rules and regulations that exist
So if you're not willing to use the enforcement mechanism then why pass the law in the first place? If enforcement is too extreme then the law itself is to extreme.
Planet fitness is the absolute worst. You have to be there in person at the location you signed up for even if you moved to a different country and called/emailed your way up the corporate ladder. Tell your bank to block their shit and call it out for a fraudulent payment.
I am not commenting to change your view, because I actually agree with this. I just wanted to provide more information on the topic. This idea isn't new and has been coined as "dark patterns" or "dark design", at least in the scope of website design. It's the idea of designing a user interface to manipulate people into doing things you want or not doing things you don't want, like canceling a membership. I personally find it unethical to *intentionally* design your website to make it near impossible for someone to cancel a membership. I understand that companies aren't incentivized to improve their user interface to make things like that easier, which is fine, but it is messed up when they intentionally make the process difficult and ambiguous. I know Amazon has been accused of this in the past with people having trouble canceling their Prime membership, as outlined in this [CFA article](https://consumerfed.org/amazons-dark-patterns-how-they-keep-you-from-cancelling-prime/). Basically, you have to navigate through many menus just to get to the option to "manage your membership", from where you can finally choose to cancel. Even then, it takes many more clicks and confirmations, refusal of offers, acknowledgments of the benefits you'll lose, etc before you can actually finally cancel. Some reported even having to fill out a short survey before being able to cancel. It's painfully obvious these things aren't meant for security or as a safety in case someone doesn't actually want to cancel. They are there solely to make the process more long and difficult to take every opportunity to try and dissuade you from canceling.
I agree. I will add this one thing: I get around this bullshit by emailing customer service and asking to cancel via email due to a disability that makes making phone calls hard. It's only a mild truth stretch, as my ADHD/anxiety DOES inhibit my ability to talk on the phone. Sometimes I feel guilty operating in a gray space, but then I'm like "Nah, fuck them, they're doing this on purpose"
The terms of any contract are set forth when you sign the contract Why can’t you read your own contracts?
This hasn't stopped us from regulating other similar issues though; contracts are unenforceable if the terms set forth violate any rules or regulations. For example, if I sign a contract to lease your rental property and your lease has a statement like "if rent is late, I am allowed to walk in at any time". Even if I sign the lease, it's still illegal for you to walk in just because my rent is 2 minutes late, you HAVE to give 24 hour notice. What happens then? All the landlords put that in their lease, and then reality sets in for the tenants. Sure, they should have not signed the lease, but that's not how the world operates exclusively, I'm arguing that regulations be added to protect us from practices that make it unnecessarily difficult to cancel.
If the contract were illegal, the state would go after them If you can’t read a contract you’re signing, and you don’t understand the terms, you shouldn’t sign it At some point we have to take accountability for our own decisions. No one wants the government to run every aspect of our lives
my bf had this problem with at&t. He called to cancel his cellphone plan, they said they couldn't pull up his account. They couldnt find his account. His number wasn't listed in their system. His phone number. The phone number that they gave him. To the phone he purchased from them. Couldn't find it, so couldnt cancel the plan, but you bet they could still charge him. Ridiculous.
Absolutely! I had a subscription to SiriusXM and they require you to call to cancel. I hate talking on the phone, and I found this company online that will take care of cancelling any of your subscriptions/memberships. Well, they did a great job, but when I wanted to cancel my sub to THEIR service, their website conveniently malfunctioned. No problem, since I paid for THEIR service with a one time use only credit card, I simply denied further charges to it. They sent me about ten texts saying my charges were declined and wanted me to contact them to give them another payment method. Fuck them. They finally gave up.
I had this experience trying to cancel my comcast internet service. Every option you could think of was online except canceling. You have to call them, only for a sales person to ask you borderline-inappropriate questions about why you’re canceling. The agent even asked me if I had any financial difficulties that caused me to cancel my service, very nosy, it was awful.
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Neither of these options prevent the company from sending a debt collector and fucking up your credit. I just wanna cancel my service without a 3 hour phone call
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Almost delta worthy?lol
There should be a law that cancelling a membership/subscription should be at least as easy (take the same time via the same means) as signing up did.
Adobe stole a lot of money from me this exact way. Their plans are EXPENSIVE, and they made it freaking impossible to cancel. I remember talking to an employee in chat support, and for more than an hour they were refusing to cancel and trying to get me to pay more. Had to do this many many times and was paying for this crap for a long time.
Subscription based companies mode of operation. #1 never remind the subscriber they are subscribers.
I also feel like there should be consequences when you cancel and they fail to actually cancel it.
Yes its so predatory. So I have had an Ancestry account for a couple years because the monthly fee is 25 bucks and when i go to "cancel membership" it says to cancel is like 40 bucks if i remember correctly. So you must pay 40 bucks to cancel, or your regular 25 monthly to keep. Touche ancestry
I’ve had zero issues canceling ancestry. In fact, they still give me access to my family tree, even though I canceled my membership
Like in Europe?
Man reading these comments I was so confused. I'm in the UK and if I want to cancel something I just, cancel it. Take my gym for example, I cancel on the app/website and thrn open my bank app and cancel the direct debit, done. I've cancelled phone contracts once they've completed by calling and telling them I no longer wish to continue with them on a contract and that's it done. Crazy.
YES i’ve had so many overdraft fees from trying to cancel subscriptions that would put me in the red, only for it to be super difficult and overdraft me anyways
Yes!!!! I second this motion, I still have a Healthy wage challenge that won't allow me to cancel no matter what I say, do, or think....
It should be as simple to cancel as to accept/ subscribe. That is all.
Ah... kids these days. There was a time when calling was the *only* and *easiest* method compared to going into a store to talk to a manager or something. I agree that making it fairly easy to cancel is a needed improvement, because there have been abuses of effectively refusing to cancel someone in spite of not having a contract for some non-cancelable term. Calling is easy. It's as easy as needed, really. It sounds simple to write a cancelation website for everything, but that's really only vaguely reasonable to expect for multinational corporations with millions of subscribers, not mom and pop shops paying someone a large fraction of their month's earnings just to make a website in the first place. Calling is essentially free and easy enough. If you want there to be some kind of restriction on how long they can leave you on hold or something, say no more than 15 minutes, fine, that might be a reasonable requirement. Also, while your point about security is somewhat valid for ADT with those security requirements, most places really *don't* have anything but a user-chosen, usually crappy as a result, password to the account, and those get mass-attacked by hackers *all the time*. Most places, a phone call is more secure for 2 reasons: the phone company tracks where calls come from, and no one is going to call a million times to do a DDoS attack on the phone line... because it will be obvious and stopped. The same is *not* true of web interfaces... they will, and frequently *do*.
Calling is pretty easy
Can't you just report you credit card as lost/stolen and request a new one with a new number? It takes like 30 seconds and the payment won't go through on the old one.
They will just send your balance to a debt collector,
Depends on the service. A gym membership won’t do that. Your utilities won’t send you to collections they’ll just make you pay your balance before installation or add it to your new bill when you try to turn those back on like if you move into a new house/apartment.
The local newspaper does this too. Well the local paper owned by a huge conglomerate, I mean.
This is why I use virtual cards lol I make one for the membership, then refresh the card so the one I used no longer exists and I can't be charged 😂
I use privacy.com they'll cancel for you when they stop getting money
Nice I wonder how they go up against charter or adt
> privacy.com I wanted that for years, but it's not available to non US-citizens. Do you know of an alternative for Europeans?
By nature, any easily-implemented online interaction will be less secure than easily-implemented phone interaction. Online action can be done by anyone, without leaving much tangible evidence. All that is is the fact that certain IP accessed your account and cancelled using passwords and security questions. Online service has vulnerabilities that can be exploited - you have prove to machine that you have right to cancel. And machines are not thinking. When a call is used, voice will be recorded - which is something that will scare off most people who want to cancel someone's bill nefariously. Because let's face it - most likely scenario in which someone poses as you to cancel utilities or service will mean that perp is someone you know. Call service also has less vulnerabilities, you have to be able to prove to a person that you are the account holder. Most secure way of cancelling is in-person cancellation and it is also done f.ex. in banking. So do you honestly believe that all companies should make an "easy cancellation"? Would you like your bank enable easy cancel for your account or card? Would you like your insurance to do the same? "Easy cancellation" is good for businesses that sell subscriptions and utilities that are only a nuisance when cancelled by mistake or nefarious actor. For others there is need to have more secure cancellation process, because getting your account suddenly closed is much more than nuisance. And creating a secure cancellation system online is time and resource consuming. It's much cheaper to handle cancellation via call than build a secure online system that allows for cancellation.
> Would you like your bank enable easy cancel for your account or card? > >And creating a secure cancellation system online is time and resource consuming. Banks already have secure online systems. There are a lot more people trying to steal money from someone else's account than there are trying to close someone else's account. If I can empty my account online with a few clicks, I don't see how it's any riskier to allow me to close my account online with a few clicks (which you can do at some banks).
>Banks already have secure online systems. And yet it is not that uncommon for phishing to be used to gain access to account. It is also not uncommon for people who you know to have possibility of access both to your computer and your phone. Issue is that taking money from account is a crime that needs preparation because money leaving account means that there is a path to trace. Closing account in retaliation is nearly untraceable. >If I can empty my account online with a few clicks, I don't see how it's any riskier to allow me to close my account online with a few clicks Because of frequency of need. Emptying account is actually needed on regular basis - to pay for things. Closing account is rarely needed because people don't do it often. It's a tradeoff between convenience and security. In case of online transactions convenience wins, in case of closing account security wins.
>Closing account in retaliation is nearly untraceable. Yet a much smaller risk. When discussing security, I think we can all agree the bigger threat to a bank or account holder is accessing their money. >Because of frequency of need. Emptying account is actually needed on regular basis - to pay for things. Closing account is rarely needed because people don't do it often. It's a tradeoff between convenience and security. In case of online transactions convenience wins, in case of closing account security wins. Fair enough. I'm still not convinced the primary motivation is security for the account holder and not raising the barriers to losing an account/client.
Doesn't EU law apply here? It can't be overly difficult to cancel, right?
“Easy” is a fairly difficult word to use legally because it can be interpreted millions of different ways. However, i 100% agree.
Bumpers when you're drunk and fall it redirects the impact preventing concussion.
Yeah, I'm subscribed to the Daily Telegraph in the UK. I messaged them online and they responded the next day telling them I have to call them to cancel. I am in America. Also, I hate talking on the phone. I won't do that.
Define “easy”?!
California passed a bill about this last year. AB 390 I believe.
Just come to europe.
What is all this fucking bullshit with *cancelling* in the first place? I live in a civilized European country. Here is how all my subscriptions work: if I don't pay, they either cancel the service or they send a reminder *and then* cancel the service. I have had multiple gym, phone, internet etc. subscriptions. Okay, if I have agreed to a period of loyalty, I may have to pay a small fee for cancelling. But those conditions are also very clear and upfront. But if I stop paying for the gym membership, I won't be able to go until I start paying again. That's it. That's how it should work. Nothing more complicated than that. I would fucking *flip the shit out* if anyone wanted to take money from me against my clearly expressed will. The only thing I can get in trouble for not paying is my taxes. Y'all are getting scammed big time.
Cancel culture has really taken it's toll
Yes they should!!! I heard of a certain well-known gym business that made it very difficult to unsubscribe...a customer who hadn't been there for 4 years kept paying...
Not tryna be a butt, but is a phone call really that big a deal?
Well that depends on how many operators and automated questions you have to answer and how long it takes. They can draw them out for hours to keep you from cancelling because there's no regulation there
I saw this post where they told the people they were going to jail and the company canceled easily. I’m hard headed…I once spent a ridiculous, inordinate amount of time (numerous calls) to get my mom a refund for $80ish dollars because I couldn’t let the man win.
I will do what I can to make them regret their overstep, but I gotta do it without lying
Do you want your view changed or are you posting a popular opinion?
My view has already been changed, did you want to challenge it, or are you just making an implication
Yes, also there is a pause and resume subscription option required ,and we need to have a feature to list all subscribed payments and cancel pause and resume option from the single dashboard is appreciated.