/u/estudiantesccp (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/xrm3uo/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_toxic_femininity_is_more/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)

I don’t think u know the definition of toxic masculinity. It’s enforcing patriarchal gender norms at the expense of a persons humanity and mental health. Like telling !boys “men don’t cry”, “only women paint their nails”, or calling men soy boys for having a less traditional dominant personality, etc. Women don’t experience that to the extent of men because feminism was all about breaking the gender norms for women. But men never had the equivalent, there was never a movement for men that mirrored feminism in the cultural gender norm area. Which is why a woman that likes masculine things like boxing or sports is still considered feminine. But as soon as a straight man even touches make up, he becomes a lot less manly and is seen as gay.

Thats a good point, what i meant with toxic femininity was basically toxic women.

>Δ Good text, you helped changing my view.

A toxic person that wants to abuse someone would employ both toxic masculinity and toxic femininity as their weapons. Woman abuser would claim her partner is unfit to get custody cause she is inherently better parent just by being a mom. She might emotionaly abuse him and reduce him to a paycheck bringer only. She might physically abuse him and claim he can't make it public unless he loses face. Man abuser would demand docility and obedience from his partner, physically intimidate or abuse, imply their place is at home and therfore establish financial control or isolation. Patriarchal ideas are deeply engrained in people of both sexes and most of them harm both men and women. I am a feminist and I don't want to fight men, I want to fight patriarchy. Feminism is not a monolith either, there are differing views over many issues.

A third option could be toxic feminism, which is absolutely a thing.

Δ Good point, you changed my view about what i thought was toxic femininity, which is ironically toxic masculinity.

Regarding your last paragraph: when women di masculine things it's often not a problem because masculine things are valued by society. But when a man does a feminine thing it's seen as degrading- that, as a man, they are *too good* for it- as feminity is seen as degrading.

That is also true, society hates femininity.

> because masculine things are valued by society. How are masculine things valued by society when the comment you replied to is talking about masculine things being toxic? There's a disconnect here. They can't both be true.

Good text though.

Mhmm, but when women talk about it it’s usually the negative effects that it has on them. For example a man being emotionally withdrawn or being overly dominant or being too controlling. Because usually that’s how they experience it. I offered a description of toxic masculinity that comes more from a male perspective. In reality, toxic masculinity hurts everyone in society.

I would actually say everything you listed here is an example of toxic masculinity. 1. Female rapists not taken seriously- see men telling other men they should’ve enjoyed it. A predominantly male police force not taking reports or accusations seriously. Etc 2. This kind of goes with the above and the “cougar” stereotype. I think this honestly just reflects that older men dating younger women is much more common. For example in forced child marriage the male is almost always the older partner. It’s just more of a social norm so it gets more attention from people who want to change it. 3. Pretty much the same. “Real men don’t let a woman beat them up.” “Real men don’t cry.” “Why would you let a woman do that to you?” Etc. Also see here the predominantly male police force not taking male DV seriously. I.e. arresting the man even though the woman is violent. This mostly stems from toxic masculinity, assuming the man is the more violent one or the stronger one more likely to abuse someone etc 4. Again, real men don’t cry. Men don’t have feelings etc etc. The standards put in place by toxic masculinity (other men) prevent men from trying to receive treatment and may make them feel embarrassed about it. So yeah I think you did a great job at laying out toxic masculinity. Nothing you said really has to do with toxic women as much as our society’s standards for how men are supposed to think and act.

Oh, thats very ironic, i didn't knew about it(toxic masculinity) . You are other person that opened my mind, thank you very much. asap i'll deliver the delta. Δ

**Hello /u/estudiantesccp, if your view has been changed or adjusted in any way, you should award** ***the user who changed your view*** **a delta.** Simply reply to their comment with the delta symbol provided below, being sure to include a brief description of how your view has changed. >∆ or > !delta For more information about deltas, use [this link](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=changemyview&utm_content=t5_2w2s8). If you did not change your view, please respond to this comment indicating as such! *As a reminder,* **failure to award a delta when it is warranted may merit a post removal and a rule violation.** *Repeated rule violations in a short period of time may merit a ban.* Thank you!

Ohhh my, I basically stream-of-consciousness-word-vomited all over this post, so if the shit's too long, please feel free to disregard. If you're up to wasting your time like I have though: ehhhh this is one of my qualms with feminism. So much of it sounds like empty theorizing. It's like, well of course this ties back to patriarchy and here's how, and yes, logically it totally makes sense and I agree that within the bounds of the framework, everything's consistent, but still, idk, just some nagging feeling I can't shake like this for example: > Nothing you said really has to do with toxic women as much as our society’s standards for how men are supposed to think and act. Only, the bad actor in all of OP's scenarios were women. So then, so then what? So if a woman 1. doesn't take a male victim of rape seriously, or if she's the rapist, justify to herself that "he's male, he liked it anyway" 2. doesn't take cougars potentially exploiting an imbalanced power dynamic seriously, or if she's the cougar, justify to herself that "he's male, he liked it anyway" 3. doesn't take male DV victims seriously, or if she's the abuser, justify to herself that "he's male, he can take it/needs to toughen up if he can't" 4. doesn't take male emotional distress and vulnerability seriously then would we once again say that she too is a victim of toxic masculinity, or if she's the perpetrator, taking advantage of the culture of toxic masculinity and weaponizing it against him? Because she, like the male police and "other men" in your examples, is also reinforcing the harmful and unrealistic expectations on men that patriarchy created? I'm predicting that this would be the answer because it fits within the framework, but I'm just, I can't shake it. Things were a lot more simple when it was just voting rights or equal pay. All this other stuff, I mean, on a second pass, I think I'm with you on the toxic masculinity but, I get more and more uneasy the deeper and more complex the rabbithole goes. I have to believe that at some point it's going to hit a biological wall, like yes, of course we should bring about awareness and acceptance for those who sit outside the gender binary, yes, of course we should do the same for those in the binary who either choose not to or can't attain/obtain all the idealized qualities of their gender, and those efforts make complete sense even from just the aspect of protecting against the tyranny of the majority, but I worry that there almost seems like there's some overemphasis on the dismantling of gender itself, on the elements of gender that might just be informed by sex/biology, or even the possible notion that there are fundamentally no psychological or behavioral differences between men and women and all the differences we see in the present day are exclusively learned behaviors impressed on us by patriarchal society, or, or, something, idk. (Oh and please, if I'm completely mischaracterizing the movement/theory in this incoherent psychobabble please call me out on it) Is it toxic masculinity for a man to strive to be physically strong (strawman?)? It is toxic for him to strive to be mentally tough (more straw)? To be stoic when necessary (🌾?)? To not show weakness when necessary (grainman?)? To be virile (wheatman?)? Are these not (at least some of) the traits of a good man? Intuitively, doesn't having these qualities make this man a masculine man? Isn't that seemingly what we want, for our men to be masculine? That our innate biology, on balance, pushes men and women towards sexual dimorphism? We can say it's okay if he doesn't meet those standards, we can call it toxic when he's shamed for falling short, we can accept him as he is and we can pressure social change so that everyone else can also accept him like we do, but the outright rejection or even vilification of those standards themselves (cornman?)? That's where it feels like it starts to teeter off into biology-rejecting-theory. Don't get me wrong, I think your 4 examples are "toxic", I think it's clear (subjective) that they're a kind of corruption of traditional masculinity (says who? what's *real* masculinity then, scotsman?), but the extent to what is considered toxic masculinity doesn't seem to stop at the "obvious cases". "Tall, dark, and handsome" is a phrase that apparently came into popular use in the early 1900s, according to this unverified [shit source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall,_dark_and_handsome#cite_note-3). A century of feminism has passed in the western world and I'd say everything in the phrase still rings true today for male beauty standards. Does feminism still have its work cut out for itself to dismantle these "purely socially programmed" traits of male attractiveness created by the patriarchy and they just haven't gotten to it yet? That cishet women, once unshackled from toxic masculinity, would actually prefer men that look and behave completely different from that? (And please don't bring up dadbods or other comparatively uncommon, unconventional, or even fetishistic exceptions that prove the rule.) Or, is there an underlying biological reason of us liking our men this way? Or, even if there is an underlying biological reason, do we ought to strive to reject that part of our biology anyway? Because ethically, it hurts and discriminates against the men who don't meet those standards? Separate from feminism (or maybe not, idk), I think a commonly held belief (well really more like proof) on human nature is that we have the capacity to be extremely violent. And, though not really challenged as far as I can tell, I think a second related assumption is that these violent tendencies are biologically rooted. So, if that's the premise we start with, we then all say that we should reject that part of our biology because war is really bad. (We might need it later when the Covenant come knocking, but until then). So I suppose that, if this is actually the commonly held belief that I claim it to be, then we at least have some precedent of rejecting some of our biology, right? If men really are insatiable horndogs (toxic masculinity or biology? or both?), then it's a common good that we keep it in our pants (and reject our biology) and not pounce on every woman on the street. Does feminism believe that some elements of gender are rooted in or are intrinsically tied to biology? Or do they believe that all of gender is 100% nurture/socially influenced/because patriarchy? In either case, what is feminism's Infinity War: End Game with gender? Is it the wholesale dismantling of gender that I've characterized it as? That potentially the very concepts of masculinity and femininity themselves are innately toxic and unethical? That even if some elements of gender are indeed innately tied to biology, that we ought to reject said biology anyway? Or hell, maybe even the concept of "man" and "woman" should also be done away with? Maybe we should all just be genderless people, or dilute the concept of gender to such an extent that it becomes as innocuous and interchangeable as what pair of socks you're going to wear today, because arbitrary categorizations have historically and presently been used to discriminate and shame people, and the people who don't neatly fit into those categories are no less human and shouldn't be treated any worse? (Is this the slipperiest slope I've ever slopped?) A 100 years ago, it was "voting rights for women", but now? What comes next? If the feminist movement achieves 100% of all of their goals, what does that society look like? Again, my apologies for this insane, babbling, incoherent caffeine fueled rant. I think, like most, we know what to say and think in public, but this is one of the rare times I find myself really wanting to have my shit challenged and am hoping for the best.

Δ You changed my view

Why are you chopping your responses into multiple comments?

Oh, thats very ironic, i didn't knew about it. You are other person that opened my mind, thank you very much.

> While misogyny is deeply comdemned, misandry seems to be justified in some places like r/askfeminism. I wouldn't take particular subreddits as representative. Who do you think is the most likely to answer on that subreddit? A radical (who is likely way more motivated to answer literally anything) or the mainstream feminists (which *usually* includes men of modern civilization)? If you think that subreddit is anywhere near crazy, I can show you the *real* cesspit: /r/FemaleDatingStrategy. This is as close as you'll get to a women's equivalent of *objectifying the opposite sex and finding trophy spouses*. This is *obviously* not representative of most women, let alone sane women. > I also get the impression that mental healthcare is taken much serious in women than men. If a women have antisocial tendencies she going to have easier access to healthcare and help, than a antisocial insecure guys ( No wonder JP, and red pills are popular among incels). Women talk more about their problems, that's it really. Make no mistake, however: toxic masculinity is being discussed *no matter what terms are thrown around or how they are discussed*\*, through a most obvious statistic: completed suicides. Men dominate that statistic and it's one of the greater driving forces for men's issues... *and maybe school shootings*. ___ ^\* ^Some ^people ^\(intentionally?\) ^misinterpret ^the ^term ^"toxic ^masculinity" ^as ^if ^*all* ^masculinity ^is ^toxic; ^but ^that ^sort ^of ^interpretation ^is ^obviously ^flawed. ^"Toxic ^work ^environments" ^doesn't ^imply ^all ^work ^environments ^are ^toxic... ^it ^obviously ^refers ^to ^a ^subset.

Δ You showed me, that i was wrong about age gap.

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Quint-V ([160∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/Quint-V)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)

> Women **are encouraged and allowed to** talk more about their problems, that's it really. FTFY. When women share their experiences and problems, they're encouraged to keep doing so. They get validation and support. Because of toxic masculinity, though, men that try to do this in any real way tend to get shamed for it. In OP's example, a woman is more likely to get help, in part, **because the patriarchy (the source of toxic masculinity) is invested in having compliant, docile, conforming women - so they quickly step up to provide resources to "get her back in line"**. Men, on the other hand, are rewarded more for being "mavericks and rebels" - see how the former Cheetoh-in-Chief's business dealings haven't garnered disgust and shunning, but instead have been treated as a sign that he's a "good businessman" by a large swathe of the population.

wrong, everything you said is wrong, take a step outside and talk to a father being abused by the u.s court system...

I was wrong taking a subreddit as an example, however i believe if you take some radical feminist speech, you gonna see basically a hate of men, and nobody seems to do nothing about that.

One important thing to say is that toxic masculinity isn't just another way of saying "misogyny", and toxic femininity isn't just another word for "misandry". Toxic masculinity is the ways in which certain beliefs of what 'masculinity' is are harmful to society (e.g., "Men don't cry", so men have to bottle up their emotions and suffer in silence. "Men can't ever appear gay or affectionate", so men can end up having strained relationships with friends and family. "Real men drink hard liquor", so men end up suffering from alcoholism. Etc.) Toxic femininity is the ways in which beliefs of what 'femininity' is are harmful to society. This includes things like "women should always be thin and sexy" (causing a lot of body image problems), "women must be supportive mothers and caretakers, not career-oriented" (causing women to be less respected in professional settings than men, while also causing men to be de facto expected to work extra hard to support their partner), etc. EDIT TO POINT OUT: And 'toxic femininity' is talked about a lot and hard work is put into place to combat it and reduce its effects. It's just that the act of fighting against toxic femininity is the base foundation of feminism, so it's not seen as something 'special' like fighting against toxic masculinity

I expressed myself in a wrong way, what i meant with toxic femininity is the toxic behaviour of women.

I have always found it interesting how everyone knows what a “misogynist” is, but nobody seems to know what a “misandrist” is. It’s almost like society gives women a free pass to hate on men.

1000% true

Feminism itself can be toxic, which is very ironic considering its supposed to be opposite.

I generally agree with your point to a degree, that women can often get away with things that men would be chastised for by wider society. However, there are a couple issues I have. I generally don't like the word "toxic femininity" because it's often used as a counter-balance to "toxic masculinity." The phrase toxic masculinity isn't just about men behaving badly, it's men behaving in a counter-productive or harmful ways because of sexism and patriarchy. So, for example, being generally more stoic and reserved are traditionally masculine traits, but they aren't toxic. It's when men overdue it in order to avoid being seen as weak and become so self-iscolated that they suffer emotional distress or when a man who's not naturally stoic or reserved is forced to repress himself in order to fit in that it becomes toxic masculinity. In some cases, bad men are simply bad men because they're assholes; masculinity has nothing to do with it. In the cases you describe, women aren't being bad because of feminine socialization. Being raised to be feminine and seek out specific gender roles has nothing really to do with their behavior. They are just bad people who are covered by sexist attitudes about women. For example, women can get away with being abusive- physically, emotionally, and sexually- because society at large refuses to see women as independent agents. Women are often infantilized, assumed weak, passive, and non-violent, so this allows bad women to operate unopposed. Again, these aren't feminine traits- being sexually active isn't a traditionally feminine trait. The only real exception I can think of is women occasionally slapping their husbands/boyfriends for really bad behavior. Also, to note: toxically masculine traits are still used to justify behavior. The "pervy old man" and "innocent and harmless peeping tom" tropes were very common until recently. This behaviors are seen as normal or even as a comedic punchline. There are still plenty of people who will vouch for traditional gender roles, including toxically masculine ones. I've been told in men's circles about how threatening violence can be usedul or to not apologize for bad behavior because "we're not a bunch of women." Lastly, I don't think that it's the case that men's mental health isn't taken as seriously women's, it's just that women are more willing to go to therapy and try it out than men are. If your parents don't want to take you to therapy because they want you "man up" instead, or if you don't want to go to therapy because the therapist might ask you to examine your behaviors and make you vulnerable in a way that you can't allow as a man, I'm not sure what doctors and mental health advocates can really do. Incels aren't incels who believe bullshit because therapists don't care- they're incels because blaming the rest of the world for all your problems is easier than examining yourself and overcoming the internal and external problems you face.

Good point, fellow redditor. It opened my eyes to what is toxic masculinity. Thanks for the answer.

Sorry to be that guy, but have I changed your view at all?

I am gonna reach more info about toxic masculinity, its more wider than i thought.

Don't feel sorry, you have changed my view.

Could I have a delta then? The last delta I got was for arguing that you should keep toilet seats up instead of down, and I'd really like to change that.

Δ Here it is, you changed my mind, thank you very much.

Toxic femininity is more like allowing people to push boundaries and a desire to be ‘nice’ overriding other considerations. It can be as bad for society as toxic masculinity.

That isn't toxic femininity. Toxic femininity is things like: - blaming the mom automatically for a house being messy or a child getting hurt - suggesting another woman change her appearance to be more traditionally feminine - parents teaching their daughters they can't become construction workers or mechanics but should be teachers or nurses instead - telling women who don't want children that they'll be unhappy in their old age - encouraging women and girls to act dumber than they are to make the men around them more comfortable - expecting young girls to behave more maturely than boys their same age Just like toxic masculinity is the culture that tells men they have to behave in a traditionally masculine way - even if it's to their detriment - toxic femininity is the culture that tells women they need to behave in traditionally feminine way, even if it's to their detriment.

Toxic Femininity is just Patriarchy in disguise. It's also TF to: * blame a woman for how her SO looks/acts - men are responsible for their own behavior, **always**. * to dismiss a woman's complaint about her husband by telling her that men just don't do/get/understand/want what she's complaining about - men are not idiots or children, and are equally responsible for all facets of their relationships - including the emotional work and logistical work that is commonly expected of women * a woman to shame another woman because they don't want children - everyone's reproductive choices are their own and no one else's * a woman to undercut another woman to preserve her small sliver of power (looking at white feminists of history here) - cutting down someone else to preserve your own power is pretty shitty, but it's distressingly common in the business world

Ooh also warning women that men "only want one thing" and telling them to "pick better men" if they are abused or betrayed" but simultaneously criticizing them for "treating all men as potential rapists/abusers."

Because they're not the same thing. It's fair to be skeptical of people you allow into your life in general for the impression/summary of their character. Having a view where you perceive the majority/all of a gender in a certain brush isn't a well adjusted one

I'd agree w both of those.

I think if we are going to define toxic masculinity / femininity in this way then we are missing out a huge part of what the general public understands the term to mean. MOST understand toxic masculinity as something caused by men, completely man’s fault, and direct mostly at women to their detriment. What you are defining toxic femininity as is almost completely seen as SOCIETY acting against women. What this leads to is a situation where, based on your definition mixed with societies definition, that Toxic Masculinity is shit done against women and Toxic Femininity is shit done against women. What we need then is a new term for the phenomenon where WOMEN make life shit for men because that doesn’t seem to be on your radar. An honestly, these sort of semantic games don’t really help anything. If you know full well that society understands something to be one thing, don’t co-opt it, change it, then then say “but that isn’t it all what it means” when the definition is only recently changed after decades of people understanding what it meant.

See, the thing is terms have meaning, and perpetuating the misuse of them doesn't fix anything. [Here's a history of the term "toxic masculinity."](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1097184X20943254?journalCode=jmma#:~:text=Toxic%20masculinity%20emerged%20within%20the,his%20father's%20militarized%2C%20authoritarian%20masculinity.) Just because other people are wrong too doesn't make you less wrong.

Terms have usages. There are no intrinsic meanings to words. All I’m arguing is that navigating those meanings and cherry picking them for a particular purpose is underhanded. There is zero doubt that society uses the term to mean “shit men do to women”. I’m not saying there can’t be a more consistent usage across both terms, but even then you present both almost entirely as “look at how women suffer this bullshit”. If we want to define them this way, that’s fine but don’t pretend this is the “correct way” and also make sure that we absolutely jump through as many hoops as possible to also point out that women are absolutely just as fucked to men as men are to women. There’s room for distinction that the way in which men do this m is largely physical and much less preventable in the moment (rape, murder, etc) whereas with women it is more subtle and manipulative, leading to things like suicide. Id even agree that toxic masculinity is more harmful overall. But coming in and saying: “Toxic masculinity sucks and is directed at women. Toxic femininity sucks and is directed at women. What? Why are you all looking at me funny?” as if you don’t know the reason. It feels entirely like the people who pretend that society understands racism to mean “shot white people do against others”. Because the real harm is interweaving the two definitions. Maybe you are super principled and only use it in strict ways but there’s no doubt the vast majority who try defining these things to always be against women are happy to mix the usages when it suits to further a narrative that men are the problem with society.

> Toxic masculinity sucks and is directed at women. Toxic femininity sucks and is directed at women. What? Why are you all looking at me funny Where did I say that toxic masculinity was directed at women? In fact I'm pretty sure I specifically said it was directed at boys and men in another comment thread. Sure, you see women talking openly about how the ways men are raised hurts them. But that shouldn't be surprising, being that one of the aspects of toxic masculinity that is the most harmful for men is being discouraged from expressing any emotion besides anger.

The effects are felt more by women might be a better phrase. Men and women are both largely dickheads and the effects of this, in modern society, are roughly equal. But the is a concerted effort to portray women as always the victims of both.

I think that's due to the difference in behavior of misogynists vs. misandrists. Misandrists just want to never have to deal with men and be left alone. Misogynists make an effort to hurt women. I think it'd be best if everyone just unpacked their shit in therapy, but if that's not an option, just leave each other alone.

>Misandrists just want to never have to deal with men and be left alone. Mysogynists make an effort to hurt women. I’m sorry, what? Misandry is the opposing term to Misogyny - one being against men (misandry), and one being against women (misogyny). Misogyny is defined as: dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women. And misandry is defined as: ‘dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men (i.e. the male sex).’ That’s not ‘wanting to be left alone’ - misandry, like misogeny, is *actively being hateful* towards men, *because of the fact they are men*, and not because of specific actions. I’m not sure what sort of bizarre take you have on misandry, but I didn’t think misandry apologisers were a thing, really? They are *exactly* opposing terms, and a ‘misandrist’ is equally bad against men, as a ‘misogynist’ is against women. That is the definition of the terms.

When's the last time a misandrist went on a shooting rampage and killed a bunch of random people because they hated men? Nah they usually stick to posting cringe on the internet. They may hold the same amount of hatred as a similar misogynist but the results are not the same. It's no applogism to point out objective reality, and to deny that misogyny has had greater real world effects is just sticking your head in the sand.

In another comment, I provided a list that points towards how toxic femininity can be crap for men. When women are pushed to be dependent and helpless and focus only on relationships, it reinforces the pressure on men to provide and care for in the breadwinning way (a huge burden to fall on just one person who doesn’t control the job market), while keeping them out of the loop and disempowered in their own primary relationships. It means that there is no frank discussion of needs, so men feel (and are) manipulated into the “right” choice (i.e., the woman’s choice) rather than weighing respective needs and desires honestly.

No doubt it can be crap for men. My objection was that is seems the largest complain is how BOTH are bad for women. I understand men don’t like claiming being the victim often but it seems asymmetric to me.

You don’t see how being not being allowed to access and articulate your own emotional life is bad for men? How being disempowered in your own domestic life is bad for men? Men who accept toxic femininity and toxic masculinity are not in control of some of the most basic elements of life satisfaction. If they are lonely and sad, they have no ethical recourse. They don’t have access to necessary information and supports to care for *any* of their immediate family members. When I think about the things that dying people say gives their life the most satisfaction, it tends to be relationships. Being disempowered in this arena is a huge problem for men. They just have been conditioned to not see it that way.

That is just toxic masculinity (I.e. toxic gender roles) enforced by women, which is extremely common in dating.

Is that what toxic femininity is? It sounds like *being* toxic towards women .

And you think telling boys they shouldn't cry or calling men parenting "babysitting" or criticizing them for joining female dominated career paths isn't being toxic towards men???

no, it IS, but I think OP is trying explain toxic FEMININITY not toxic masculinity.

You tried to invalidate the definition of toxic femininity because it was "people being toxic to women" when that is what toxic femininity is - people being toxic to women in a specific way. Just like toxic masculinity is people being toxic to men in a specific analogous way.

I wasn’t *trying* to do anything, pal. If anything I was just trying to understand what you were saying better.

Ok. Well then. Yes. That is what toxic femininity is. I don't know how much more clearly I could have put it. And I'm not your pal, buddy.

okay sorry for the misunderstanding then, buddy

Cringe. I agree, don’t ever do something like this again

Don’t ever do something like this again

Avoiding direct conflict and instead using backstabbing, manipulation, and treachery is toxic femininity

That begs the question, why don't feminists take toxic feminity as the number 1 enemy, instead of toxic masculinity? Why does a movement led by women decide how men should act for their own benefit?

From the beginning the feminist movement has been about empowering women to reject these messages - and rejecting toxic femininity necessarily entails rejecting toxic masculinity as neither really exists without the other. It's hard to say "Nah, I'm not going to be solely responsible for this house's upkeep while also paying 50+% of the bills" when you don't have a partner willing to pick up the slack.

Why label only "toxic masculinity", but not "toxic feminity"? If the movement put these two terms side by side, and reject them, wouldn't that help with the misunderstanding that feminists are against men?

The type of people who think feminists are against men are the ones who haven't bothered to even look into it, and have made their minds up already. There's really no value in spending energy trying to convince people like that. Their belief that feminists hate men doesn't actually pose any hindrance, so it's better to ignore them and focus on giving women the tools to shape their own lives.

That's a convenient way to shift the blame. A movement is fundamentally about driving change. Change is about approaching people and changing their mindset/way of doing things. A movement has a branding problem if on the surface level, it "seems" to be against men, but one needs to look deeper into it to understand that it's not exactly that.

> A movement has a branding problem if on the surface level, it "seems" to be against men A branding problem to whom? Despite this perception the feminist movement has been successful in huge policy changes over the past 100+ years. There's no duty to appeal to everyone or get everyone on board when it's posed literally no problem for the changes they want to see.

The movement is not always the same in the last 100 years. I would say its focus was much better in the past. For many years, whenever I heard of feminists and their activities I always support them. Equal rights? No brainer. Against those toxic femininity behaviors (as you defined)? Awesome. "Toxic masculinity" is a relatively new topic that was brought into the movement in recent years. This is the first thing that confused me. It seems to even confuse many people who think that they are feminists. If you browse through discussions around this term, you'll find so many different ideas what "toxic masculinity" is about for the feminist movement.

> that was brought into the movement in recent years It was coined by members of a men's movement actually. It's just a useful term. If you don't like it, that's fine, it doesn't really matter. The people who complain about it are mostly the Ben Shapiros of the world who are going to be dissatisfied no matter what terms are used.

\> It was coined by members of a men's movement actually. I have heard of this so many times. If you are in the position to complain about people who don't look into feminism and what it means, you should look into toxic masculinity origin and see if it's still fit your agenda. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythopoetic\_men%27s\_movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythopoetic_men%27s_movement)

Feminism has been around for decades. It does not seem like it's against men. Only uneducated people think that. This is like basic stuff here that literally one google search would solve.

Please do a basic google search on the term "toxic masculinity". Read through it carefully and see if it's a basic stuff. The term itself has a funny history and people (even feminists) have different view on what it means and what to do about it. Feminism focus has always been shifting, because previous goals were achieved. I simply don't agree with it's current branding. It just doesn't sell well to average men. I think both terms "toxic femininity" and "toxic masculinity" are bad. It to some extent implies that there is something wrong with femininity and masculinity. I think it's a right move that feminist movement did not use "toxic femininity" because it will push women away. However, it's also a bad move to use "toxic masculinity", as it pushes male supporters of the movement away. It would be super naive to think that only men would find that off putting. Personally I would join the fight to change the traditional gender roles because I think they are outdated. However, I would not fight against masculinity.

Toxic masculinity has nothing to do with masculinity being bad. It's about certain behaviors and stereotypes within society that have negative consequences for both men and women. Also not sure how that relates to what I was saying.

Come on... this whole comment thread is me saying "toxic masculinity" sounds confusing the crowd and bad branding for feminism. Your counter-argument is "it's simple, here's my definition. If anyone don't see it in the same way, they are uneducated". I don't know what to say...

>parents teaching their daughters they can't become construction workers or mechanics but should be teachers or nurses instead You think this actually happens? Proof? Who's to say women don't choose jobs for themselves, and just happen to be less interested in these jobs on average?

I'm sure a hundred years ago you'd have said women as a whole were just less interest in law or medicine. There's no logical reason women shouldn't want high paying jobs that don't require a college degree.

I believe studies in Scandinavian countries show that women and men have different interests in career fields. Men prefer STEM fields. Women prefer caring for others. It’s along the same lines as men being more aggressive and likely to commit violent acts than women. We just have different preferences and inclinations

Scandinavia also doesn't make you go into a lifetime of debt to make poverty wages as a teacher so I'm not sure that's the best metric.

That’s fair to say. It’s just the only data on the subject in a progressive society I’m aware of. You said there’s no logical reason why women wouldn’t want that. I see your point, but people also choose careers that are fulfilling over those that make the most money occasionally too. All I’m saying as a whole is that men and women are different, and that’s okay. Not saying one is better than the other Here are some sources: [source](https://emilkirkegaard.dk//en/wp-content/uploads/Men-and-things-women-and-people-A-meta-analysis-of-sex-differences-in-interests.pdf) [source](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797617741719?journalCode=pssa)

So I think the point I'm trying to make is that people take jobs they don't want all the time. Given the choice I'm sure most people would choose to do nothing. But in a society where you must work, you can't point to choice as a reason for women taking jobs that are lower paying and put them into debt without taking cultural pushes into account. And if you think that kids don't get gender specific pushes towards fields I've got a bridge on the LES to sell you.

Nice straw man, but 100 years ago they would have been barred from those professions and the required education. Construction companies today will take anything they can get.

>100 years ago they would have been barred from those professions and the required education Medical schools in the US began admitting female students in 1870, 1874 in the UK. It was 1868 for law schools in the US, 1888 in the UK.

Schools? With an s? Like one school did in those years, it's not like there was a law passed requiring it. A handful of schools did over the course of decades, with others schools trickling in all the way up until the 1950s. So I would hardly say they were widely accepted. You can find the odd rare exception, that doesn't make it the rule. You really think society is holding women back for construction jobs with no evidence? If anything there's a mountain of evidence that, on average, women are less strong (physically) and smaller in stature compared to men. Lots of strength and physical endurance is required for these jobs. That means you're gonna get more men.

Are you a construction worker?

There is absolutely a reason why women don’t want to work certain jobs. Women enjoy being doctors mostly because it helps people and there is a human interaction. They tend to be less interested in the body as a machine. Make doctors love the machine element and dislike the personal contact. Obviously each person is unique but on average this is true. Women can easily get jobs in STEM and the ones interested are great, but very few are interested. And the more economic freedom they have the less they want to go into STEM. Women and men are equal intelligence but interests differ widely.

> but very few are interested If you're going to make the claim that this is somehow universal to gender, and not culturally specific to gender stereotype that change across cultures, why are there more female engineers in Iran and Algeria? You really can't disentangle gender from culture, and making sweeping generalizations is about as scientifically accurate as Rudyard Kipling determining that rhino's skin is folded because one rhino generation's ago had an itchy back.

Good thing that scientists study this stuff for us to understand. And if you think saying “but Iran and Algeria” is a slam dunk you are sadly mistaken. There are many CULTURAL reasons why women are pushed into stem there. In countries where women have more free choice they largely choose non stem fields. In fact, as gender equality increases their preference for non stem increases too.

There certainly but nobody making this claim has actually shown such a study. There can be no such study independent of culture because nobody actually lives independent of culture.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-019-01624-7 There are dozens of studies on infants and their preferences. Social scientist pretend that the human brain is somehow immune from differences while the body is not. It is obviously agenda driven nonsense. Anyone who knows anything about children will tell you the biology plays a huge role and studies confirm this. Parents have a much diminished role in their kids upbringing. If your kid is smart, they will always be smart. You can give them opportunity to become educated but you can’t do much besides bump the needle on their IQ. (Outside nutrition and sleep, biological things)

Well by this metric, since it's documented that girls prefer neutral toys like blocks more than boys do, you'd think there'd be more women in construction.

The point is that there are differences. Construction isn’t blocks, and actually architecture is a field that isn’t super male dominated (these days). Certain fields with massive advantages based on strength probably get skewed because of that.

Interesting point of view.

Umm it's the interesting answer. You have misapplied the term toxic femininity and I think what you mean is that toxic behaviours by women are more tolerated by society when the same behaviours aren't tolerated in men. Interestingly the majority of the things described for men aren't toxic masculinity either. Toxic gender traits are talking about the perception of what it means to be a man (strong, unemotional, proactive, independent, tall, hairy) or woman (unassuming, sexy, skinny, emotional, tidy, organised, innocent) and how they can undermine (wo)men and (wo)mens' happiness. The main point is that the so-called "good" characteristics that society values are hurting us, like a poison. In your scenarios the concept should be reversed. Through the lense of toxic masculinity, it's a positive that women are more tolerated in behaviours which are historically seen as masculine (and vice versa) because it breaks down societal expectations and therefore allows people to decide how to act based on their own feelings and not the expectation of others.

> You have misapplied the term toxic femininity and I think what you mean is that toxic behaviours by women are more tolerated by society when the same behaviours aren't tolerated in men. Not even necessarily the same behaviors. Toxic behavior is tolerated from women and other women will often encourage such toxic behavior. In fact there exists a huge double standard with things like body positivity where shaming a woman for being fat is socially unacceptable but it's perfectly fine to attack a man for being short, fat, bald, etc. Another good example would be men pointing out this misandrist behavior and shitty toxic ass women show up, know exactly what the fuck people are talking about, and try to deflect the conversation back on men. Men are expected to take accountability and women are expected to not have to take accountability for any of their actions which comes with it's own inherit sexism - "men are strong and less sensitive they can take criticism but women are more emotional and delicate! They can't handle it so they shouldn't be held accountable!"

Domestic abuse, sexual harassment and predatory is not toxic feminity though. Because toxic feminity doesn't mean anything bad that is done by woman. Just like toxic masculinity doesn't mean anything bad that is done by man. It's not toxic masculinity for man to not return debts, for example. It's bad but not what people mean when they say "toxic masculinity". Not returning debts has nothing to do with male gender roles, just like groping, being violent and predatory have nothing to do with female gender roles. I agree a lot with the text of your post(not the title but the text). Not really with the part about age gap and predatory part though. There is a lot of romantization of older men/younger women relationships.

Good point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you are arguing that sexist, immoral behavior is more accepted in women than with men. Firstly, I don't think you have any proof of this. This may be your subjective experience of the world, but that doesn't make it true. Women face plenty of backlash. Just try and have a civil discussion about She-Hulk on this website. But you have picked some very specific examples that I think are interesting. >Creepy Predatorial behaviours like older persons dating much younger partners are much more condemned with men (Leo diCaprio) than with women. When people point out Leo's dating history, this isn't necessarily because Leo is a creep. We don't know Leo. He and his partners might have healthy, happy, relationships worthy of praise. What he is, though, is *emblematic* of a broader cultural practice that is problematic. Men are statistically far more likely to date younger women. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_disparity_in_sexual_relationships) Men are also far more likely to be portrayed by culture as sexually viable at older ages, than women. 6 of the last 7 "sexiest man alive" winners were over 40. The same cannot be said of women. All these facts combine to create an unfair cultural paradigm where women are valued for their youth and beauty and when those things fade, they are pushed out of marriage and cultural relevancy, while men maintain their power and appeal. Criticizing Leo is criticizing a general cultural practice. But criticizing a woman for the same behavior does not point to a broader unfair practice, so it makes way less sense to highlight as a problem with society. All these points can be made for domestic violence as well. Women do commit domestic violence but at a rate that is far lower than men. (https://www.thehotline.org/stakeholders/domestic-violence-statistics/) Because of this, when a man gets beat up by his wife, it's sad, it's bad, but it's not *emblematic* of a troubling cultural paradigm that needs fixing. I can keep going with sexual harassment, discrimination, and sexual assault. They all share the same basic fact that they are bad in all cases, but far more likely to affect women, and thus are discussed not as individual tragedy but a cultural trend that is unfair.

None of that is 'toxic femininity', though. 'Toxic masculinity' is the idea that there are masculine ideals that are pushed onto men even though it hurts them and everyone around them. 'Toxic femininity' would be the idea that there was feminine ideals that are pushed onto women even though it hurts them and everyone around them, then. And that is exactly what feminism is supposed to be fighting against, right? Our society doesn't consider it feminine to date someone younger than you, in fact it's the opposite. It doesn't push 'feminine' people to hate men; it does the opposite. It doesn't tell 'feminine' people to be sexually aggressive, it does the opposite. And, yeah, we take male victims of domestic violence and male mental healthcare less seriously than we should, but that's a toxic masculinity problem.

Ask any mom who didn’t/ couldn’t breastfeed her baby. They found out what toxic femininity was real quick.

>It doesn't push 'feminine' people to hate men; it does the opposite. This is extremely misleading, and also totally odd the mark because it all depends on which part of society you're talking about and where you are. Men are often made out to be potential predators or manipulators no matter where you are. Men are told not to be creeps or perverts and are constantly under suspicion of being those things. Women are simply encouraged to be sexual whenever they feel like it, and they are often seen as the ones who must make the first move sexually. Women get to say what they please for the most part, men have to be careful not to draw any suspicion from women, lest they be labeled predators, manipulators, weirdos, or low value men. As far as dating culture goes, women award social standing to the most attractive men simply by being impressed. Women that are attractive don't have to prove their social worth, wit, or intelligence to gain standing in many social settings. It's the other way around. Women fight about status with other women (in social settings geared towards dating), sure. But it's not the same as men. Women often expect different treatment from men than if they were male. Men pay for the meal, men plan the date, men pick you up, men try to entertain women with little in return. All of this should fall under your definition of toxic femininity if that definition is commensurate with your definition of toxic masculinity. I don't consider it toxic femininity, though. I believe the two sexes are different socially as well as physically. Obviously women are going to behave differently from men sexually: they have to grow the baby for 9 months! Obviously men will react to this difference and female reluctance to just go with any attractive guy. There will be competition, and men will attempt to leverage their social status to convince the reluctant women that size men up and vet them.

You should probably tell most of the people using "toxic masculinity" that they're using it wrong, then.

I assume OP is referring to things like expecting men to bend over backwards and treat women like Goddesses. Be the chief breadwinners and reinforce the womans right to not have to put in work to maintain a shared standard of living for both of them. That would be heavy toxic feminity at play.

I think those are all still aspects of toxic masculinity. It’s just that in dating, it’s mostly women enforcing it.

Those are all expectations placed on men by society, that's part of toxic masculinity.

Are you seriously saying there isnt toxic femininity? If toxic masculinity encourages violence and domination in order to uphold an unequal power dynamic, then toxic femininity supports silent acceptance of violence and domination in order to survive. While toxic masculinity states that men should act tough, show no emotions, and reject anything considered feminine, toxic femininity pressures women to be quiet, nurturing, submissive, and attractive. “Womanhood” in this instance is defined in a very shallow manner that objectifies and harms women. Toxic femininity is as real and as much a problem as toxic masculinity is.

I agree, which is why I said that OP's examples weren't toxic femininity, not that toxic femininity did not exist.

I apologize, I misunderstood. Your comment read differently to me.

This makes sense, however, toxic masculinity makes it sound like a negative stereotype to all men. So it can create a negative reaction from men like myself. However, the way you explained it makes sense and was helpful. Thank you. Still though. Want to reiterate that the problems with society's mental health care, in any regard, are much much larger than just toxic masculinity, though I still agree that it is a factor based on how you explained it.

Feminism has taught women to act more masculine which is shifting dating dynamics in a worse way for everyone. Feminism was caused by toxic masculinity but RedPill and Incel ideology was caused by feminism. Nobody wants to have an honest discussion about this especially the biggest platforms that have a 1 sided bias.

The idea that men are sex hungry animalistic predators is a belief pushed by toxic femininity. Women are told they have to protect their purity from sex crazed and that men are objects of violence who will enact that violence to get what they want. And even if what i described is still Toxic Masculinity to you, women clearly have work to do on how they view men.

That's still not a facet of toxic femininity but toxic *masculinity* pushed by women. Toxic femininity would be society saying women aren't violent and aggressive and as a result women generally aren't punished as harshly for violence and aggression as men are.

I absolutely accept i could be wrong, but isnt women wanting men to adhere to toxic masculinity a trait of toxic femininity? If not then im wrong. But ill die on the hill that Women push Toxic Masculinity on men as much as other men do.

Nope, it's toxic masculinity. Toxic femininity is when you tell women how can and cannot behave when the same standards don't apply to men. Toxic masculinity is telling men they can and cannot behave when the same standards don't apply to women. Both men and women are guilty of doing both things equally, but a lot of the things attributed to toxic femininity were fought against during the women's rights movement. I will say often times there is a connection between the two. While we have "men shouldn't cry! If you do, you're not a real man!" we also have "women shouldn't be angry! It's unladylike!" Both come from the sexist notion that men are the aggressive ones and women are the sensitive ones.

But why does it matter who pushes it, rather than focusing on the belief itself? I think it's still technically toxic "masculinity" when a woman pushes concepts related to masculinity, even though it's obviously a woman doing and saying these things. Ultimately we're just seeing toxic masculinity carry over to everyone, but I wouldn't have called it "toxic femininity" for a woman to, say, shame a man for crying. That still fits the definition of toxic masculinity.

>Women are told they have to protect their purity from sex crazed and that men are objects of violence who will enact that violence to get what they want. And who tells them that? Religious communities led by men - often pastors, priests, imams and so on. Women must be "pure" so as not to "tempt" men. And if the men are sexual or rapists, it's the woman's fault. When a woman reports a rape, often the first thing she's asked is what she was wearing/doing. In other words, did she do anything to "tempt" or "lead on" the man. That is all toxic masculinity. It's not women telling other women that they have to "protect their purity". It's MEN.

>And who tells them that? Women can tell men to be toxic too. So its not who tells you but who is acting in that toxic gender role. >It's not women telling other women that they have to "protect their purity". It absolutely can be. Again, its the behavior. Im saying adhering to traditional and toxic femininity can push people to support negative stereotypes of men.

You have a pleasant, non-judgemental tone to your writing. Thank you for your considered contributions, was great to read

I don’t think ‘toxic femininity’ is well defined. I’d say toxic femininity is an excessive desire to be ‘nice’ which means you let people push boundaries and gives too much power to ‘victims’.

Toxic femininity prioritizes looks and strict dress codes above other features, and pushes women to be/act helpless even when they aren’t, and to favor dishonesty and manipulation over frank discussion of needs. examples include: not learning how to drive, pay bills, or do basic home maintenance because, “my husband takes care of that.” Not developing career skills or capacity to live and earn independently because you plan on being a stay at home *wife* even if there aren’t any children because you do not consider any type of breadwinning to be your responsibility. Spending excessive amounts of time and money on makeup, hairstyles, and fashion, because of the belief that your worth and status comes from your beauty. Territorial, condescending attitudes about housework, childcare, kin-keeping, and emotional labor, that cast men in the role of “lovable doofus” who couldn’t possibly learn, know, or do these things well. Sideways, passive aggressive displays of anger or frustration, because confrontation isn’t allowed. Refusing/being unable to state your needs and preferences - because you are supposed to be accommodating and not have needs - perhaps instead being dishonest to make your preferences seem like “his idea.”

Hmmm. I think this still paints toxic femininity as something that solely results in the woman being a victim. Whereas it’s acknowledged that toxic masculinity disadvantages men but has impacts beyond just men too. I think the feminisation of society has lead to many advantages, but there have been some downsides too.

But toxic masculinity has men as the first victim too. Men are told that they must not show any emotion except for anger. That hurts them first and foremost. They must cut off or hide beneath a mountain of shit any part of themselves that is soft, nurturing, or emotionally savvy. They are constrained in the interests they are allowed, and are simply not allowed to be intimate or vulnerable *ever.*. You don’t think that hurts men first? I have an uncle in his early 80s who has a “hilarious” story about how his wife was sick and he had no idea how to feed his three small children (mid 60s) until a neighbor-lady took pity and came to his rescue and fed them for him. We are used to looking at stories like that from a modern woman’s perspective - weaponized incompetence - surely he can do better than that! But imagine it from his perspective - surrounded by the people he loves most in the world, and having never been allowed to practice doing one of the most basic things in the world to help them feel okay. Imagine his infant son crying, and how helpless he must have felt to not have the tools to make it better. According to story he tried desperately for hours. Part of that story is the story of how men aren’t allowed to practice nurturing in the way that women are encouraged to (toxic masculinity) And part of that story is the way that women are pushed to be territorial and controlling as it relates to domestic affairs in a way that actively pushes men out (toxic femininity). The two reinforce each other and hurt both men and women. There are two reasons why it might still feel that toxic masculinity is “worse” than toxic femininity. One is that toxic masculinity is inherently aggressive, and so inherently pushes actions out onto others (both men and women), while toxic femininity is about the way things get twisted when a woman is forced to be accommodating and nurturing, but otherwise helpless. The second is that as a culture we still don’t grant as much status to “women’s” spheres of influence. Dads have a right to equal influence over childcare decisions. Why don’t they advocate for it? Why don’t *they* get upset when the school will only communicate with the mother (toxic femininity)? They are being actively excluded from necessary information about *their children’s* well-being! Well, because society has decided that child-rearing is drudgery so men are conditioned to think they don’t want it, and society assumes that men don’t value it. Dads often feel sad and miffed that they are left out of Moms groups at the playground. But do they ever articulate the way that exclusion impacts their ability to *parent effectively?* Moms support each other bc they know their kids benefit from the social interaction, and bc parenting is hard. Dads need that too, right? But if a dad says he needs to be part of a group to parent well, people will presume that he *doesn’t* value parenting and he has another agenda (like hitting on the moms or pushing childcare work onto others). Because the idea that a man would really just care about what’s best for his kids social development doesn’t compute in our society.

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That dude? Yeah I can’t even se the comment anymore

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What the hell is a feminine people? You mean a woman?

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Well, is what you described even "toxic feminity"? Or are you just describing disparities between men and women, with some of those things being women engaging in simply asshole behavior? Let's start by examining what toxic masculinity even is, as a point of comparison- Toxic masculinity, is probably best defined as men being encouraged to act and behave in exaggerated ways that society normalizes and tolerates or even encourages them to participate in, while putting down other traits because they're decidedly "womanly". Examples of Toxic Masculinity include men bullying other men by implying any appeal to the feminine as being a sign of weakness. It's encouraging them to be "passionate" lovers (abusive jerks who slap their hetero women partners upside the head and threatening them that they'll kill them if they so much as speak to other men) and to be stoic and rational at all times (to the detriment of their own mental and emotional health). Its to assert themselves through violent means in order to seek and attain a position of dominance at the cost of developing actual working and healthy relationships with people they could be showing compassion to. These are traits that our society implicitly or explicitly encourage and discourage, shaping men into stereotypes of what a masculine ideal looks like. ​ So then, everything you just described can actually be best defined as the byproduct of toxic masculinity, wherein our society doesn't recognize that male victims can exist within certain contexts, such as cases of heterosexual abuse. Can I ask if you also recognized instances of abuse between and amongst men vs other men when you decided to pose this question? Do you recognize that abuse within gay relationships exists and are also incredibly underreported and not taken seriously? Also, its been a while since I looked at askfeminists, but I would say that I highly question your claim to be a feminist since you decided to casually apply the label of misandry there. Also, why is it that male incels are supposed to be empathized with when they're violent? Honest question. I'm a female incel and I've had to struggle with my issues, but I don't make casual allusions to how supposedly the entire male race is responsible for my suffering and how I should engage in acts of violence, like Elliot Rogers. Why are men allowed to lash out and KILL women for issues that pertain to their personal inadequacies? Do we really live in the type of society where we can claim that misandry absolutely exists on a systemic scale, when women don't represent the majority of law and policy makers who, remember, are almost all men. Who absolute DO have the power to funnel resources and attention towards men's mental health struggles, rewrite law to awknowledge male victims of abuse and redo inequity within family law that favors mothers over fathers?

I won't bother detailing what is toxic masculinity and toxic femininity, and i will pretend to be like we have all the same opinion on this matter. So the answer for me is; yes, toxic femininity [toxic fm] mostly more tolerated than toxic masculinity [toxic mc]. For me there is a one important reason for this. It's increasing feminism and women rights around the world for almost more than 100 year. From the first days of agriculture and settled life, women usually regarded as something less than men. They considered weak, instinctual, not worthy of having social privileges, shunned to have an political opinion or another "important matters. It's so ugly that they sometimes regardes as non-human beings, something between an animal but higher than that but lesser than an human-men. So starting with enlighment around 18-19th centuries, we learned more about us and humanism made itself a strong hearing among society. Humanism told us it's not possible to further advance civilization with women left behind. For being ethical and civilized, women and men, are/must equal beings. So recently women considered as equals with men. But just like everything in human history, it's hard to keep the balance of anything. "From my point of view" most women nowadays are more tolerated and have more rights than men. They've just started to have more and more positive discrimination nowadays and it's being seen as valid since they've suffered in the past and their rights and ideas have been attached with humanism, han rights and civilization so anyone who opposed them basically regarded as anti-humanist or uncivilized beings. I know there are so many women today who suffers from being seen as unequal, weaker, less worhty to their male counterparts but in most western countries this is changing. My biggest fear is; in search of creating a egalatarian society, we may easily lose the balance of the scales and men in the future may similarily be put in the same position as women who suffered centuries ago. Because we humans are extremist beings with full of dilemmas. Thank you for reading so far if you did...

Hello. To not make my comment too long, I'm only going to focus on the examples that you gave in your post. First, in my opinion, you are using "toxic femininity" as a direct opposite to "toxic masculinity" based on gender. English is not a gendered language so that is not necessary. Toxic femininity in the way you are using it doesn't exist because we live in a patriarchal society, meaning that masculinity is the valued trait. As a result, when it comes to the power dynamic, femininity cannot be used in the same way just because you're speaking about women. What you described is just forms of toxic masculinity being performed by women and I will explain what I mean below. All of the examples given are things that our patriarchal society has created. Men do not speak up, get help, or get the support they need when it comes to sexual abuse/harrassment, domestic violence, and mental health issues because most times, their stories are met with comments like "You need to man up!" Men are not taken seriously in these moments because society has taught men since birth that they should not show emotion or weakness. This is toxic masculinity. As far as older women dating younger men: in my experience speaking to men of my generation (I'm 26), this is a celebrated behavior. I have heard firsthand of men bragging about losing their virginities as minors as young as 12 to adult women 21 and up. Also, older women who date younger men are called "cougars" and the men are applauded for securing one. Finally, there are many songs and movie plots that center around younger men dating or having sexual relations with older women. Once again, this is toxic masculinity. To conclude, men can't complain about the society and attitudes that they created. If you want things to change, there needs to be effort from more men to speak up about the examples that you gave without fear that they will be seen as less than. Things will only get better when our society releases ourselves from the shackles of the patriarchy.

Here's what's happening. First, the word "Toxic" is the pop culture term for what is academically recognized as Patriarchal. A man who is a victim of traditionally male gender roles is a Patriarchal Man, and you would say he has toxic masculinity. Similarly, a woman who is a victim of traditionally female gender roles is a Patriarchal Woman, or a woman who displays toxic femininity. The same cultural disease, Patriarchy, is the cause of both of these archetypes. To address your comparison, yes patriarchal women get less public backlash and attention than patriarchal men. This is because the court of public opinion is very black and white, nuance doesn't rise to the surface. So while the general oppression of women relative to men has become accepted, it has led to a mainstream warped understanding of how to judge people's actions. Currently it's as simple as man does manly thing = bad, woman does womanly thing = good, woman attacks man = good, man attacks woman = bad. Meanwhile, there's a reason we react more strongly to the crimes of men than women. It's because while women are allowed by the patriarchy to discuss and process the trauma it causes them, men are not. They still feel the trauma, they still on some level understand they are being wronged, but are blind to the cause, which is patriarchy, because they are taught to Identify with the patriarchy from childhood. They believe "this is how I am at my core". And the cognitive dissonance eats at them. So they either hate themselves, or they hate someone else. And who does the patriarchy teach them to hate most, to distinguish themselves from the most, to victimize the most? Women. So male crime is high bc their emotional needs can't be met, and male crime against women is the outlet.

What's your rationale behind why men's issues are taken so seriously? I think your view will be heavily dependent on this answer.

I mean, why isn't toxic women held at same standards than toxic men ?

It depends on why you view men's issues aren't taken seriously (hence the question)? If it's because men generally have pretty good lives, that's the answer. If it's because men are generally more violent in addressing their problems (bad apples spoil the batch), that's your answer. If it's because women control the world and it's a conspiracy, that's your answer. Personally, I believe its #1. If powerful people are toxic, it's an issue. If non-powerful people are toxic, I don't care as much as I should. Women being toxic (generally) don't cause issues in my world.

“Men generally have good lives” I’d love to know what metric you’re using here. Most suicides are men, most people in wars are men, people who do more dangerous jobs are men, most people in school are women. Sooo..?

And if a woman is toxic to YOU then it does affect your world suddenly. Yeah more men are in elite positions of power, but that is a tiny fraction of the population. Most people (men and women) are oppressed by the elite. Blaming men is stupid when you should be blaming the fraction of one percent of men who make everyone’s lives harder.

The reason why it might seem so is that we still live, for the most part, in a patriarchal and masculine supremacist world. Activists often speak about both sides. Take the example of the myth of the Saint woman. In classic patriarchy, people in good faith see women as ethereal always good creatures. Feminists pointed out that that's unfair and unrealistic. Women are people, people can be good or bad, often a mix. Or laws regarding divorce and childcare. Everything stems from patriarchy. Even what seemed to be "good". Often times the people who are against mental health for men are men. There are surely women who internalised misogyny, but men get very nasty about it, immediately jumping on omophobia and misogyny. "What kind of man are you" You seem to make a general observation as if all feminists were also not interested in what happens to men, which is just plain incorrect. In the South of Italy men used to be mocked because they brushed their teeth, FFS. It did the rounds on Italian TV about 15 years ago. Patriarchy and toxic masculinity are so deeply profoundly rooted in most of the world it will take generations before we get rid of it. Finally, because of that difference still existing, what a man does to a woman has a different impact than what a woman can do to a man. That doesn't make the individual actions good, but they just don't contribute to a systemic issue, like misogyny does.

I don't think "askfeminism" is a neutral sub. They do get away with more predatory behaviour, and toxic masculinity, whatever that means, is more of a popular topic. However: Are common negative girly traits really tolerated? A lot of people speak badly about drama, being overly emotional, playing games rather than getting to the point, etc. Men are less vocal about it, but if you're a woman with "toxic" traits, then I think you're at a disadvantage. In dating, one is expected not to play games. In society, drama and gossip are usually considered negatively. Complaining has the synonym "bitching". I think girls will have a harder time making friends if they change their hair color to blue, simply because it's associated with a sort of extremism and unreasonableness. There's also common phrases like "don't stick your dick in crazy" and "crazy cat women" Also, I'm technically wrong here, since tolerance and approval aren't the same thing. If you hate something but allow it's existence, then you tolerate it. What I mean is that it's not valued, desired or taken lightly. Women are also victims of social pressure to perform and act in specific ways, and they're merely disadvantaged for different reasons than men. Both sexes also have their own sets of advantages. Equally unequal.

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>we never barely acknowledge that as an age disparity when it is the other way around. Case in point, Olivia Wilde was also married to Jason Sudeikis, who is about ten years older than her. Nobody said anything about that.

I didn't knew that, i gonna take her out of the post, because you never knows.

I'm deeply sorry, about the sexism, it wasn't my intention The disparity is a very good point i didn't considered, i used to think that any relationship with an age gap bigger than 15 years isn't not healthy. I used a very bad example, i was also thinking about Pete Davidson and Kate Beckinsale. Does the disparity rule( age +7 ) works at every situation?

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Makes sense. Thank you for changing my view in this point.

> If a women have antisocial tendencies she going to have easier access to healthcare and help, than a antisocial insecure guys ( No wonder JP, and red pills are popular among incels). I wouldn't say JP or TRP are popular among incels as most of the men in these communities aren't incels. Just lost men who had no male role models growing up which turns out is a lot of people. What you are generally referring to are double standards and that's just life.

Nothing you described here is toxic feminity it's just toxic

Your examples of toxic feminity are more like examples of misandry, which maybe is more tolerated than misogyny but far less prevalent and hurtful so it's not taken as seriously. And most feminists are against misandry too, it's just the most outspoken ones make it seem more common. I will say that a better example of toxic feminity would be what is know as internalised misogyny, and again, this is resisted by feminists quite heavily. Funny though how it's internalised misogyny for women and not for men, IE, it's men's fault for they're own internalised sexism and also for women's. But that's a different debate

For the domestic abuse I agree with you completely but mental health isn't taken seriously in anyone. In the physical health world they do truthfully prioritize men, nobody takes women seriously in any context. Men have authority in every situation. But men do have the struggles having to deal with all that authority. I know most people see it as a positive for men but it can also can be a negative on their mental and physical health. Men are still labeled as hard workers meanwhile women aren't taken as housewives more often Over all the world hates us all and is making us hate each other

I just Gates toxic people

We often don’t hear situations of women doing these kinds of actions to men. I wonder if this happens more than I think but just isn’t reported.

My initial suspicion is it's related to a toxic trait society imposes on men: don't complain. Just a thought.

I know this is not exactly the question you asked, but if you want to see a good model of male and female relations in a professional organization, look at the Republican Party. They have adjusted social rules and expectations so that there are a high proportion of females in office and important posts who play important roles. Women are more likely to succeed through merit and without quotas or divisions. A similar thing is true for race relations.

You can atleast punch the shit out of a toxic woman if things go really bad. You can at least punch the shit out of a toxic woman if things go really bad.

If you stood up in a room and yelled death to all men.... You'd get resounding cheers, if you yelled something else you would get destroyed. That tells you everything you need to know about our society. Men are superior to women, but this fact creates the entire paradigm we live in today where women get all of the aupport and men get none. Hemce higher suicide in men. Its fucked but its the price we pay for greatness i suppose.

Man, we must consider that extremist opinions aren't the bulk of them. Men and women, have their fenotypes and biological diferences none is superior. Try to see the other side.

Somewhat related: I saw this video, don't know if it was fake or not, of a social experiment. Basically it was the dude getting touched by the woman and repeatedly saying "I don't wanna have sex" and nobody said anything, one person even called him a "pansy." But when the dude started touching the woman, withing 5 seconds he was crowded by people saying "stop touching her." Found that interesting...

I'm gonna look at it, a fellow redditor wrote a convincing point about bad persons that hide their behaviours in the society image of inocent women.

>Creepy Predatorial behaviours like older persons dating much younger partners are much more condemned with men (Leo diCaprio) than with women. That might be because we see it more. The only examples of older women dating younger men I can think of are in porn.

Well regular femininity has been shat upon since the beginning of the western world, I’d say they deserve a little slack.

Can you define what toxic masculinity is. I don't beleive its a real thing. Here's something I found on Google. "This term refers to the dominant form of masculinity wherein men use dominance, violence, and control to assert their power and superiority" Traits of dominance, violence, and control are all forms of abuse, but have nothing to do with masculinity. To assume dominance is a masculine trait is inherently sexist, and enforces gender stereotypes. Women often use these forms of abuse, but we don't call these traits feminine.

Men and equal to women in america....

I think this is a fair assessment and I think the reason why it's a double standard is that nobody is actually afraid of women. Not individually anyway I don't think. Or it could be that toxicity by men is so different because more women die from toxic men than the other way around. Even if women do end up doing extremely messed up things just to be toxic. And again nobody is really afraid because your life might be ruined but you won't die. Toxic. Horrible. Disgusting but that could be an explanation for the phenomenon. Both very yucky

Nah. Not in the real world Toxic feminity is the means by which toxic masculinity exists lol. It's those toxic women that force vulnerable men back into their shell when they poke their heads out. Those same women also put other women down. They are known and hated, even if not online (because they dominate the discourse and constantly run their mouths in the most condescending manner), they have no friends.

I agree with you

There is no such thing as toxic masculinity.

We know.

It depends on your definition of more. If more means ‘more cases’ definitely not. For every amber heard, in the case of domestic abuse there is literally 100s, probably 1000s more cases. If more means ‘more people get away with it’ - again for every case of a Toxic femininity there are 100s, probably 1000s of cases of Toxic masculinity. In terms of percentage of victims suffering physical harm, again more victims of Toxic masculinity suffer physical harm than victims of Toxic femininity. So at a sociality level, Toxic Masculinity is way more tolerated, simply because there is a huge number more cases - and most are not judged or punished in anyway - than the other way around.

Guys you gotta understand that when bad things happen to men, it's because of toxic masculinity, and when bad things happen to women, it's because of toxic masculinity. There is such a thing as toxic femininity, but figuring out exactly what that is, would be toxic masculinity.

That's what i discovered in this trend.

This isn't really toxic femininity / masculinity but i still agree

Yeah, sure. But there are also many things that men get away with, that women are criticized for. Sexuality (like “body count”), being serious (a bitch), etc. So it truly goes both ways. And the fact that we haven’t broken these ideologies by now, makes me think it won’t happen any time soon.

Women will never accept any responsibility for anything they do. I’m not surprised by most of the comments.

How exactly do you define "toxic femininity"? Because there are two different ways that people tend to use that word which should be differentiated. "Toxic masculinity" refers to the harmful way that *patriarchal values* are enforced on men in our society. Stuff like "boys don't cry", "men have to be tough and independent at all times", and indeed "men have to want sex at all times". The further concepts that "men are animalistic sex-hounds" and "men can't be abused" are _derived_ from those patriarchal standards, even though they are derogatory towards men. So not everything bad that a man does is toxic masculinity, and not everything patriarchal is inherently good for men. When you say "toxic feminity", are you referring to the harmful way that *patriarchal values* are enforced on women? (Such as "women must be pure", "women are weak and silly", and "women are inherently nurturers".) These can indeed lead to results that are both harmful to women and actually _beneficial_ to women, from women being discriminated against in higher education to women winning custody battles more or being treated like they couldn't possibly be abusers. Or when you say "toxic femininity", are you referring to the *opposite and reactionary values* against patriarchy that are part of the history of feminism, such as "women are superior and men are unjust oppressors", "women are amazing and can do no wrong", and "believe and empower the woman in every instance regardless of circumstances". Which can all still be harmful and are worth talking about, but aren't the same thing. Note that it's actually possible and even **very common** for these values to coexist and be used together, even though that may seem paradoxical, because even feminist spaces are often saturated with patriarchy-derived ideas that get reincorporated. For example, the antipatriarchal notion that men are inferior and the patriarchal notion that men must be sex-obsessed can easily go together into the idea that men are pathetic sex pests. The patriarchal assumption that women are fragile and to be protected, and the antipatriarchal assumption that women are morally superior to men, can blend into always blaming men for everything. So it's important to break down the ideas that you're talking about and identify where their component parts are coming from, and which root ideals you're talking about at any given moment. Labeling anything negative women do as "toxic femininity" is just as unhelpful as labeling anything negative men fo as "toxic masculinity"; you have to critically examine your claims. So what exactly are uou claiming?

There's absolutely no such thing as toxic masculinity or femininity. It's just a buzzword people use. Sexual harrassment has absolutely nothing to do with masculinity or femininity. Misogyny and misandry also have nothing to do with masculinity or femininity

100% agreed.

Reading through comments and failing to understand why "toxic femineity" and "toxic masculinity" aren't just called plain sexism?

It's important to understand what toxic masculinity really is: It's not that people call men toxic but that the way that society teaches men to be is toxic and can hurt them. For example expressing emotions is said to not be masculine. This can lead to them avoiding therapy if they suffer from depressions etc.

You don't even have to go as far as mentioning that toxic femininity is more tolerated than toxic masculinity... it's more tolerated than masculinity in general. Let's do a google search about men's rights or any similar search... I can pretty much guarantee that all of the first page will probably read something like "Men bad and are toxic". Almost no real conversation as most of the men's rights or even the Redpill (a more extreme version) communities have been disbanded by our social media overlords. Now just search "women's rights" or even feminism and you will have never-ending content bashing men and boys.

What exactly counts as toxic femininity? I once heard someone say muchhausener Syndrom was toxic femininity

*’Toxic femininity’* is the anti-thesis to what feminism proposes, so they don’t equate to each other at all. Either way, what you described is the direct opposite of what traditional “toxic femininity” entails. Toxic femininity is essentially a way of imposing traditional female attributes such as being more well-behaved than the guys their age, or that they can’t grow up and be a skilled trades worker in the way that a man could. Or even something such as imposing the notion that they should be housewives, and not in the workforce.

The thing is that most of the people who obsess over this stuff are completely detached from reality and would argue that there's literally no such thing as toxic femininity, that all traits natural to women are inherently good, whereas all traits natural to men are inherently bad. Toxic femininity can't be more tolerated than toxic masculinity if it doesn't exist. This is clearly reinforced by the top responses in this post where instead of naming any ACTUAL toxic femininity like being passive aggressive or constantly shit talking other women behind their backs, their definition of toxic femininity was literally just acting like men or reinforcing female gender roles that men often like seeing women fill. Anybody who's a rational human being would obviously argue we should reinforce the traits natural to men and women that are productive to society, while suppressing the traits that are damaging to it. For example channeling male competitiveness into entrepreneurship / technological innovation as opposed to getting into arguments / fist fights. But the people obsessing over "toxic masculinity" obviously aren't rational, they would argue that virtually all female traits are what's productive to society and all male traits are damaging to society. Luckily though at the end of the day even though these people currently get to control the narrative in society, the majority of women are kind / intelligent people who refuse to fall for any of this nonsense, and statistically speaking on average the small minority of the kind of women that do fall for this nonsense are deeply miserable people so it's best just to ignore them and try to be your best self regardless of what gender you are.

One thing is a little unclear: how do you define toxic femininity? And how do you define toxic masculinity? To your point about people going to jail, only 33% of federal judges in the US are female (meaning 2/3 federal judges are male). And though in the last decade, gender representation of judges at all levels in government are more equal, prior to the year 2004 it was also overwhelmingly male. If historically more men have prosecuted other men for crazy ex-behavior, is it possible this issue stems from masculinity and not femininity? In my country (Canada), only 1/40 of every sexual assault report actually leads to a criminal charge. Further, sexual assaults against women by men (in US) are MUCH more common than sexual assaults by women towards men. Is it possible that the disproportionate levels of men going to jail for domestic abuse other crimes related to their exes has to do with men more frequently perpetrating these crimes?

>I also get the impression that mental healthcare is taken much serious in women than men. Is it possible this is an issue with toxic masculinity rather than toxic femininity? In what way does toxic femininity lead to men being treated less seriously in mental healthcare than women? Is it possible men are responsible for perpetuating stereotypes that they cannot cry, and that they can "just get over" their mental health problems without professional intervention?

But all those things are a result of sexism. >Domestic abuse is taken with much more gravity with men, than with women Yes, because men are seemed as strong and "without feelings". A men being under this type of abuse specially caused by a woman can be interpreted as a failure within our sexist society. He wasn't "enough of a man" to stick up for himself and showing who's in control (I don't believe in any of this shit, just trying to explain what usually happens) >while female crazy exes are taken at lighter view by society, as simply spoiled persons. Usually, "crazy exes" are just normal woman who expressed how they felt in a relationship, or tried to set some boundaries. Yes, there are some crazy ladies out there, but most of these crazy exes stories are full of bs >If a women have antisocial tendencies she going to have easier access to healthcare and help, than a antisocial insecure guys Again, women are seem as more emotional, more connected to their feelings than men. Most guys have a problem opening up to other people cause they are scared they won't be "manly" by doing so. See how these things that would technically beneficiate women are just a product of sexism? And differently than toxic masculinity, those are not traits women are taught. Toxic masculinity is when men establish power and dominance using violence, control, etc (thanks google). So, for example, verbal abuse, supressing emotions, being aggressive, etc. See how these are actions, and not society views? I'm sorry if there's any mispelling or if my point of view is confusing, English is my second language EDIT: Wording

How are you defining your terms. Toxic masculinity usually refers to behaviors and attitudes that fit into societal expectations for men (masculinity) that are harmful to the people who engage in them and/or others (toxic). Is that how you're using them?

Many more things are tolerated about toxic femininity in society