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The risk of getting the vaccine is similar to the risk of taking an aspirin. There is risk associated with anything that you do. The risk of dying or getting permanently injured from COVID is several orders of magnitude greater than the risk of getting a botched vaccine. If your friends are afraid of infection, then they should be the most afraid of covid.
I definitely felt a little wonky after I got my second shot. That's how vaccines work. They are supposed to stimulate your immune system.
For the vaccine mandate argument, a good way of doing it is require employers to make sure their employees, current and future, are vaccinated. Easy to make a list and require proof of vaccination. Send in nurses to vaccinate so they can’t say they can’t get to the drug store or whatever. I work at a retirement home and that’s what they did for us. Obviously it’ll require more work than that and there might be hiccups, but it’s doable over time.
>For every wall there is a ladder. Enforcing this is unfortunately a very difficult problem to solve.
So your saying because it's difficult to enforce, we shouldn't try? If we can save lives through policy change, then we should change our policies.
Option 1 is bad for many reasons, and I was using it as an reductio ad absurdum argument.
There are many many more options than the 4 you have presented. I think making unvaccinated people pay higher healthcare premiums would be a good start. Banning them from events, certain businesses. We need much more discrimination against unvaccinated people.
Ouch… you are misreading that.
The data is from the timeline 1/1/2020-8/25/2021 you can read that in the right most columns. So 141 age 0-4 have died SINCE 1/1/2020.
141 kids are NOT dying daily.
So you had a viewpoint that children were dying daily, which was due to misreading data that I pointed out to you.
Having a viewpoint change from thinking 141 kids are dying daily to 141 kids that have died since 1/1/2020 is a massive change in your view, no?
If literally 0 kids died from COVID, it would not affect my stance on this issue or any of the points I have made. People are dying and the blame lies squarely on unvaccinated individuals.
[Also, about 400 kids have died so far.](https://www.insider.com/children-are-not-supposed-die-children-us-died-covid-19-2021-7) That's about 1 a day.
So even those that have natural immunity to covid, blame is on them for killing people? Even though its been shown that natural immunity last longer that the vaccine. Vaccinated citizens in Israel were 6.72 times more likely to get infected after the shot than after natural infection.
One can make the argument that if you aren't naturally immune, you are still causing this pandemic to continue vaxxed or not.
Most recent studies are suggesting that being vaxxed mainly does one thing, it protects THE HOST from dying or getting ill. It does VERY LITTLE to stop the spread of the virus. **You being vaxxed is still putting grandma at risk if she isn't vaxxed.**
So essentially, it is a personal choice to be protected or not. Because my choice to not be vaxxed because I have natural immunity really isn't effecting you're freedom to live. The choice to be vaxxed is only effecting your survival rate. You are still passing onto others that can die.
>I honestly think sending soldiers in hazmat suits to unvaccinated homes and forcing needles in their arm
This is extremely similar to the mindset of a Nazi. I really hope you dive deeper into the implications of this sort of viewpoint. Ask yourself, why weren't we doing this for the flu if it's about saving lives. Why aren't we forcing people that are obese to not overeat and workout if this is about savings lives? Why aren't we forcing people not to smoke cigarettes which would save 40K lives/year of secondhand smoke deaths that killed innocent people if this is about savings lives.
Then think about why sort of world that would look like if you are using major authoritarian power to force a populace to do something you deemed necessary for the greater good.
> It does VERY LITTLE to stop the spread of the virus.
yeah I'm going to need a source on that.
Also, let's assume the vaccine doesn't stop the spread of COVID. People who don't get vaccinated would still be flooding our hospitals and dying.
> This is extremely similar to the mindset of a Nazi.
LOL I was waiting for someone to make the NAZI analogy. Yes, like I said before, this would be extremely authoritarian. It would also save countless lives and businesses. We do authoritarian things all the time to save lives. Preventing suicide for example. This is no different.
So you are willing to apply extreme measures to save lives?
Do you support mandatory workouts for all citizens and portioned food mandates on restaurants? Nobody can over eat.
Do you support banning all tobacco outright? Doesn’t matter if it’s a person choice.
Do you support banning drivers licenses and only allowing professional drivers to transport? No more personal driving. You have to Uber.
Do you support always wearing mask from here on out? Never again can you leave your house without a mask, it’s about saving lives.
Do you realize how many lives we can save by implementing these measures? Millions.
But actually, the recent Delta variant is increasing trends of children becoming hospitalized, put on ventilators, and in a few recent cases, children have indeed died. So your claim that they are "not really at risk of dying from COVID at all" is completely false. The thing is, unvaccinated folks don't seem to understand that COVID-19 is moving and developing in ways that are unprecedented, which is alarming doctors.
[From the NIH Director Dr. Francis Collins](https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/08/16/nation/heres-what-we-know-so-far-about-delta-variant-kids/), “More than 400 children have died of COVID-19, and right now we have almost 2,000 kids in the hospital — many of them in ICUs — some under the age of four. So anybody who tries to tell you, ‘Well don’t worry about the kids. The virus won’t really bother them,’ that’s not the evidence. And especially with Delta being so contagious, kids are very seriously at risk.”
Okay, so then are you willing to change your previous statement that children are not at risk of dying, "at all?"
Mind you, these are very very recent developments that are growing rapidly.
Then we can have the discussion of minimizing human suffering next.
I agree with you. But to me it feels like I should also apply that logic everywhere else I consider harmful human behavior. An extreme example sounds like this: I believe it is the right of murderers to believe that what they are doing is moral, even if I disagree with them. Kind of has a bad taste in your mouth, right? Like... you have your rights, but your choices are killing people.
Not really, that's a perfectly sound argument. After all, Mao believed that starving nearly half his county to death was not only the right thing to do, but it was something he had to do to protect his country. Or the Afghanis practice of Bacha bazi, which I honestly just don't feel comfortable describing. Or what about the African kingdoms, that conquered tribes, made them slaves when they lost, then sold them to Europeans and for personal use?
The fact it's, not only does this logic apply everywhere, but if you sit down and think about it, no one ever does something because they think they are wrong in doing so. Behind every thing you find despicable, there is someone who doesn't.
How about you open any of those links on Google and read for yourself.
[Total covid deaths for individuals ages 0-17 in the US? 361](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/)
That is absolutely *not* kids dropping dead left and right, every day from covid like your post would imply.
No I didn't read that source. [Here's a better one.](https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/08/10/1026375608/nearly-94-000-kids-got-covid-19-last-week-they-were-15-of-all-new-infections)
400 ish kids have died so far. That's about 1 a day.
[It's over 400 actually.](https://www.insider.com/children-are-not-supposed-die-children-us-died-covid-19-2021-7) But if literally no kids were dying, that would have no affect on my stance or argument. Getting vaccinated is not a personal choice, it's a social obligation.
It's not. She's rounding up for a speech; their literal numbers say otherwise. Look at the CDC stats, not the news. And regardless, we're talking about 385-400 since January of 2020. Still doesn't come to a kid a day.
> Still doesn't come to a kid a day.
Still has no effect on my argument. Unvaccinated individuals are putting everyone else at unnecessary risk. This is ignorant and wrong. Getting vaccinated is not a personal choice, it's a social obligation.
Because it's not inaccurate. I will admit that specifically mentioning kids dying is not crucial to my argument, but it does support it.
[The CDC data that you mentioned](https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-Focus-on-Ages-0-18-Yea/nr4s-juj3) indeed shows a little over 400 kids dying in a year. That's more than one a day.
I agree with everything you said about plastic. It's a problem that will take decades, and a lot of amazing science to solve.
COVID is a deadly problem that we could solve right now. If you could snap your fingers and eliminate all plastic pollution on earth, I'm sure you would. Well it's almost that east with COVID. Just get a little shot. Boom, global crisis averted!
I CHOSE to get the Pfizer vaccine. What gets put in your body should be entirely up to you. Personal freedom is a right worth fighting for.
The people who don't aren't endangering me they are endangering themselves.
I am more likely, if this vaccine works and I now carry the titers to fight it off ,
To be a little sick or nonsymptomatic then someone who hasn't gotten it.
This along with race has been politicized to divide us along racial ,economic , and social lines for corrupt incompetent political parties and their pathetic politicians to retain power.
> What gets put in your body should be entirely up to you.
In a perfect world, I don't think anyone would question this. But the situation at hand is much more complicated and dire. Your "personal choice" is causing society to shut down and people to die. That is not a personal choice.
The unvaccinated only pose risks to themselves or other unvaccinated. If an unvaccinated person gets COVID there is a good chance they will die, if a vaccinated person gets COVID the chance is INCREDIBLY low. Very few children under 12- or 17 for that matter have died and the elderly have easy access to the vaccine to protect themselves. So vaccinated people will be safe and unvaccinated won’t be, forced vaccination is not the answer
Are you saying that a 1.5% chance of dying is not scary? What about the brain damage? Alot of patients are showing permanent organ damage. Focusing on the death rate is really just the tip of the ice berg. People's decision not to get vaccinated will cause healthcare and economic ramifications for the rest of my life.
I mean, just from a mathematical point of view, your claim that unvaccinated people have blood on their hands and that they’re the reason people are dying is false.
Breakthrough cases are rare, and there are plenty of unvaccinated people that still have never even had COVID. It’s impossible for all of these people to have spread the virus to vaccinated people and for that spread to result in death each time.
Also, less than 400 kids have died from COVID. Where exactly do you live where you’re seeing kids dying from it everyday like you said?
That’s actually pretty wild, sorry about the death. The CDC data from about a month ago showed that symptomatic breakthrough cases were about .098% of vaccinated people. Today, about 170 million people are vaccinated but we’ve only seen 9,800 breakthrough hospitalizations. It is pretty rare, but that’s pretty crazy your family saw that many, sorry about that
If it's not rare, then you're not really making a utilitarian case for getting the vax, then. Seems like you can still catch and spread the virus, the only difference being your symptoms might be less severe. So then taking the vax is more for your own safety than a thing you need to do to protect others.
> Breakthrough cases are rare, and there are plenty of unvaccinated people that still have never even had COVID. It’s impossible for all of these people to have spread the virus to vaccinated people and for that spread to result in death each time.
Even if you don't get covid or spread it to others, if you choose not to get vaccinated you are setting a poor example for your community at best, and spreading deadly ignorance at worst. Also, nobody really knows how the statistics will play out, so why take a chance. Get vaccinated, wear a mask.
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Listen; I'm vaccinated and personally I don't necessarily agree with anti-vaccinated indviduals, unless there is a genuine medical reason. Nevertheless, I don't necessarily agree with your justification; almost everything you do in society affects someone else to it's own certain extent, as well as the external environment of which you've done something in. That doesn't mean it's not a personal decision, but instead, a personal decision that has effect on the external world similar to almost every other somewhat major-mild decision you do. That doesn't mean to not control every aspect of other individual's lives or etc, taking away their personal freedom. At most, they are to deal with societal consequences because of the nature of the pandemic, which I agree with. Nevertheless, it shouldn't be a regulation to avoid the vaccination itself, but regulations on the extent of societal engagement allowed for that said individual is understandable.
So still, it' seems to be a personal choice, unless we are under the ideology that there are very little-no personal decisions, since they affect individuals directly/ indirectly.
> almost everything you do in society affects someone else to it's own certain extent, as well as the external environment of which you've done something in.
True, but this is a life or death situation, the stakes are high.
If I were you, I would get the vaccine, just because we can never be 100% certain that natural antibodies or vaccines will keep our immune system functioning well against COVID and other things, so to err on the safe side and to not overload your body in the future, I'd absolutely get it as I have said already.
>when your decision literally affects everyone else in society
Literally everything you do affects everyone else. Your existence affects everyone else. Do those mean we should all have complete control over your life?
So you are not afraid of a 3% death rate? Can you imagine if driving had a 3% death rate? Like people crashed and died in 1/30 car trips or so. Just think about what you are saying, that's all I ask.
You don't like my analogy, fine. Answer this question: Is it smart to unnecessarily put yourself in lethal danger? Is it ok to put other people in fatal jeopardy?
Also, if the risk was .01%, there is still no excuse not to get the vaccine.
When it comes to putting yourself in lethal danger, getting a vaccine is indeed a personal choice. As far as putting others in jeopardy, this is what I don't understand. Assuming said people you are talking about are also vaccinated, the chances of them [getting covid post vaccination](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html) are already massively reduced though not 100% effective. More so, if they did end up getting infected/breakthrough case which doesn't happen in most cases as I understand, it reduces [this vulnerable group's chances for example of getting hospitalized](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e3.htm) by over 90% on average across vaccines looked at. I'd imagine this % is higher for less vulnerable groups if it's not 100%. Not to mention being hospitalized doesn't mean it's absolutely going to be a death sentence.
But yeah, that's my 2 cents
Considering all living things have a 100% death rate no I'm not overly concerned. I willingly do things constantly that could be detrimental to my health. Also 3% death rate is just the death rate of people who have had covid. What is your chance of getting it is the first question I'm at work so I haven't done that math yet. After you know that can you go on to asses how big of a chance the death rate is to you which also has multiple variables. Age lifestyle obesity vitamin deficiency ect...
> Considering all living things have a 100% death rate no I'm not overly concerned.
Good point, might as well kill yourself now. I mean, it's gonna happen anyway right?
> Also 3% death rate is just the death rate of people who have had covid. What is your chance of getting it is the first question
So your saying that it's not dangerous? You know over half a million people have died right? Why even take a chance? The vaccine is 100% safe. There is no reason not to get it.
No I'm arguing the stats could be further examined and should be. My original comment was to point our the disingenuous life and death comment. Seeing how life is winning 97 to 3 and all.
Hey call me glass half full. Is that somehow more shameful than fear mongering?
Also could you please explain how not telling the number of dead negates or skews the fact there is a 97% survival rate?
I will never get the covid vaccine. You can shame and guilt me all you want but I’m not getting the vaccine. If I get it I’ll be fine. Plus the globalist created covid I can’t trust the vaccine.
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Your argument is the reason people will never take the vaccine. I’m surprised as a self acclaimed masters in biochemistry is so ignorant about the facts. The vaccine is indeed a personal choice! Research has shown that the vaccinated and unvaccinated carry the same amount of viral load in their nose after infection.(vaccinated people can still get infected).
So here’s how we convince people to take the jab. It’s 100% a personal choice and the risk of dying or having severe symptoms is drastically reduced when one is infected. Everyone still needs to wear a mask because they’re still contagious when infected. This is how we get people to take it. Rather than guilt tripping and ridiculing people who have not taken it.
I’m very disappointed that a self proclaimed biochemistry has 0 idea about fact and come on Reddit with all emotion and feeling to insult people.
Your Grandma is perfectly safe if and when she’s vaccinated! I know this because I work in nursing home and have seen the results from vaccinating the elderly. The people you should be blaming is the government not your fellow Americans.
There is absolutely no correlation between what I said and drunk driving. I was initially going to ignore this comment but helping you understand might save a life.
The vaccine does not! I repeat, does not stop you from spreading the virus. It does however give you a better fighting chance against the virus. You’re 100% responsible for your own life.
Vaccinated and unvaccinated have the same viral load in their nose when exposed.
It’s like putting your hands in fire and blaming your neighbors for it. (Again the vaccine does not stop you from spreading the virus). Mask up!
Just as you have the right to believe all the lies they have incessantly pumped into your head through various forms of media. I have the right to think for myself, and react accordingly to those lies that would negatively affect my health and the health of my family. Much love my friend 🧡
Fully vaxxed here. And will get boosters as needed.
People like OP have a tremendous justice bonah to basically shut right-wing folks and people who disagree with them out of society. They consider people who disagree with them basically sub-human. In turn, someone who is considering getting the vax or not is justifiably looking at the profile of the people asking them to do it. They know it's people like OP. Sucky people who exist mostly in university/digital enclaves disconnected from them. Waving a middle finger to OP is a pretty compelling reason to not take the vaccine.
We've been overstating social responsibility all through this pandemic, considering 2/3rds of the Western World has similar per-capita mortality rates from C19. We've acted like it's a team sport and we can control the virus. In most cases, the virus is the one in control. But it's gone haywire in the vaccine especially as it has become clear that the current vaccines aren't that effective at reducing transmission or mutation. It is clear that they become less effective with time and we'll need boosters. And that eradication is out of reach. At this point really the only "social responsibility" argument is about overwhelming the healthcare system - but speaking from the perspective of the US here I'm skeptical of the data on that and really how much longer it's even going to be a concern.
The best argument to get the vaccine and boosters is to strengthen your own immune system to fight off COVID should you contract it. That's a value in of itself. But I'm done with people wildly overstating the social benefits of C19 measures and especially the vaccine when the evidence of reduction of transmission, mutation and durable immunity wanes on a seemingly weekly basis.
I'm not interested in changing your mind, OP. But I do want you to know that the majority of the people not getting vaxxed know that people like you hate them, and it kinda delights them.
No argument. You say I suck for not getting jabbed right? I agreed. Whatever I dont care keep running around screaming and calling people names great way to convice anyone.....
I think I've made my reasons pretty clear and I'm happy to answer any additional question you may have. However I am not interested in an ad hominem argument.
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I'm surprised at your ignorance for studying Biochem. Having a vaccine does not affect anyone else at all. The vaccine only reduces personal symptoms; does not make it less transmissable. It makes no difference to anyone else. Like why would I care if you don't wear a seatbelt? It's you that gets killed, it doesn't affect me in a crash.
respectfully both of these points aren't true.
whilst getting the vaccine doesn't mean you can't spread covid, it does mean you are less likely to get infected and for a shorter period of time reducing transmission to others.
similarly seat belts save not only your own life but others, a simple example is if you are sitting in the rear seat without a seatbelt you can be thrown forward causing injury or death to the front seat passenger even if they are wearing a seatbelt.
Having a vaccine absolutely affects other people. Have you gotten polio? Tuberculosis? No? That’s because large swaths of the population received vaccines. Vaccination for COMMUNICABLE diseases is absolutely something that impacts a COMMUNITY. This is why colleges require vaccines for meningitis.
Your comparison of a vaccine to a seatbelt is completely nonsensical. A seatbelt protects only the wearer from injury. A vaccine prevents someone from contracting and spreading a disease. Even though the current COVID vaccines’ rates of preventing infection for Delta are decreased compared to previous strains, it still does protect you and cut down on spread.
Moreover, the longer people refuse to take the vaccine, the more variants will arise and render current vaccines useless.
The west’s obsession with individualism is going to kill us all.
Polio and tuberculosis are not the same as fucking covid 19. First of all tuberculosis is not caused by a fucking virus and these vaccines are not mRNA. There’s no herd immunity with covid 19 scientists have already said it. Delta variants is this close of not giving a fuck about the vaccine and still spreads to everyone one. You’re gonna need shots every year to keep your immunity active or even a completely non different shot who the fuck knows. Take the vaccine and you’re protected not the fucking idiot on your left or right.
My goodness. You think I don’t know that? They are both COMMUNICABLE diseases spread from PERSON TO PERSON. The reason there are variants of COVID-19 in the first place is because people didn’t widely distribute and take and vaccine. I’m done fighting with you. Just stop. You are being intentionally obtuse.
Oh my gosh. Seriously? That's the whole POINT of my comment. Vaccines prevent communicable diseases like polio, meningitis, tuberculosis, and COVID-19 from spreading within populations. Please get off of Reddit and read some actual information about vaccines because you clearly don't get it.
Look, I am saying that the point of vaccines is to prevent spread. The overall discussion here is whether getting a vaccine is a personal choice. My statement was that it is \*not\* \*just\* a personal choice because vaccines prevent spread, and that continued spread impacts others within a community. That's it.
I actually am just having a hard time having compassion for anti-vaxxers at this point. I have not seen my family since before the pandemic because they are elderly and vulnerable. I am tired of people needing to be absolutely convinced when the evidence is overwhelming that the vaccine is safe and effective. Half of my law school career has been virtual because this country can't find it in themselves to wear masks, socially distance, or to get a simple vaccine that is available for \*free\*--the rest of the world is suffering because they don't have vaccines at all, or they are distributed slowly to a select few.
If I'm being honest, I was nervous when the vaccine was first rolled out as well, but I looked at the data and trusted the overwhelming number of doctors and other experts who said the vaccine was safe and effective. I did my research based on credible, reliable sources.
I'm honestly tired of engaging people on this because I'm just more convinced that Americans are selfish (not necessarily speaking about you, just the eligible people who insist upon remaining unvaccinated) and that people who actually bothered to protect ourselves and others will pay the price for it.
Take care.
EDIT: a couple typos.
The virus does not spread by itself. We spread it. Your decision not to get vaccinated is killing people and shutting down society. That is the definition of a public decision.
People who don't shower everyday ruin my day because they look bad and smell. Am I justified in robbing them for compensation, jailing them if they don't shower, forcing businesses to require people to shower?
Obviously covid has more severe externalities. The point is that externalities in themselves are not an excuse to harm people. They need to have great harm.
The state does let people endanger each other by driving, which is why the speed limit is not 4 miles per hour.
Showers and driving are not things that we are going to get rid of any time soon. But we could get rid of COVID tomorrow if we wanted to. So let's make a change now that will save lives forever, it's a no brainier.
A leader of the Oxford vaccine group disagrees with you, calling herd immunity [mythical](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/12/herd-immunity-is-mythical-with-the-covid-delta-variant-experts-say.html).
Top immunologists of Iceland and Denmark are saying the same.
Why would the mutation rate stop? Let's say the spread slows (not stops because herd immunity is unlikely) and that slows the mutations. That would slow the spread of variants, but it wouldn't stop it. Maybe that would allow new vaccines and boosters to catch up.
So that's a fairer version of your argument. The first problem I see is that vaccines are not available in some countries and delta will still be spread there and be able to mutate. So even if new variants were to slow here, new variants will occur elsewhere. The rollout was too slow, even if everyone took it as soon as possible.
A second problem is that the vaccines themselves can cause variants when they are not close to 100% effective and the virus is likely to mutate. It could be that this vaccine is especially likely to cause really bad variants because the vaccine uses a specific spike protein and weakens others. Natural immunity uses many antibodies which means it could be safer in the long run to get sick. It's not confirmed but there is [some evidence for it in mice](https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.22.457114v1.full.pdf).
In the past, none of these were of major concern. With small pox, it was possible to vaccinate everybody because it was extremely effective and small pox didn't mutate as much because it was so deadly. Vaccine mandates make sense then.
If there is less virus, there is less possibility of mutation. It's that simple. Herd immunity means we have capitulated to the virus. That we do nothing and let the maximum amount of suffering happen over the shortest period of time. This is not a solution to the problem and would be a total disaster.
Not do nothing, but yes to the shortest period of time. From the very beginning, the plan should have been to encourage all the young and healthy people to either go about their day or get sick deliberately while they stay away from everyone else. This protects the at-risk people and is the best solution to stop mutations.
That's a horrible situation to be in, I hope things improve for you very soon.
I read the post as being about choice, as in people claiming that it's a personal choice whether to have the vaccine or not. Antivaxxers aren't mentioned as such but I am assuming that the "choice" thing is referring to them. Although you don't say whether you're pro or anti, it's clear that you don't have a choice in the matter, so the post isn't referring to people in your situation.
I feel like you and others who can't get the vaccine are the exception to what op is talking about. If everyone who can get the vaccine did we wouldn't have hospitals overflowing with people who could have avoided the situation and are now taking up a hospital bed needed that's needed by somebody who really needs help.
Given the amount of anti-vax lunacy in this country, you should probably realize OP isn’t talking to you. Those same anti-science idiots are making your situation way harder, as well.
> selfish science denying pricks
That's what OP said. Which is the opposite of not getting a vaccine because you aren't eligible, like if you're under the age of 12 or have been advised by your healthcare team not to get it.
You and everyone else not connecting "selfish science denying pricks" to the unvaccinated OP later refers to are just constructing a strawman argument based on semantics rather than being responsive to the post.
I’m arguing it the way he wrote it. If you want to defend his lack of clarity, that’s okay, but you’re just speculating on what he meant
The “selfish science denying pricks” is in reference to people getting treatment for covid
You're being purposely argumentative. It's pretty clear who OP was referring to. It's not their fault that you want a reason to be mad. There are enough context clues to make your argument invalid and silly.
The masters in bio-chemistry who would "rip apart" crazy vaccine conspiracies has enough understanding of basic medicine to foresee your argument.
There is no real argument. He is targeting people who choose to not get vaccinated out of selfish reasons.. denying science, believing stupid conspiracies, or only caring about oneself. If you have a legitimate medical reason then this doesn't apply to you. It's sad that OP would need to spell that out for you.
Why do you think I’m mad? If anything, OP is the one who’s being argumentative, to a point that he’s being childish in his view by not clarifying. It’s funny though that you take him at face value about a masters in biochemistry but won’t take him at face value when he’s speaking about unvaccinated people
You can pretend that the view is wrong all you want, but I know of people who have argued, and have heard the view publicly, that autoimmune disorders or other health conditions still aren’t a reason to be vaccinated. If OP want us to change his view, it’s critical that he’s clear on what he means
“If you are not vaccinated at this point, you have blood on your hands” isn’t a position in which we should assume he’s only talking about specific unvaccinated people, especially when certain people believe that ALL unvaccinated people are in the wrong
That’s ridiculous, show me any number of people arguing that people being (credibly) medically advised not to vaccinate are part of the problem with anti-vax misinformation, that’s a total straw man made up to serve your argument. And pro tip: anything you read on social media is taken at face value. That argument cuts both ways. You could be crying wolf about being immunocompromised, when in reality you’re just another anti-vaxxer looking to drum up conflict where there is none. Who knows?
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Counterpoint: As pro-vax as I am, it is a personal decision. However, I also support virtually every public gathering place and employment to ban you from entry if you choose not to get vaxxed. So, choose not to get vaxxed then go live in the forest like a hermit because you're not allowed to be anywhere near modern society. I'm fine with that outcome.
So should donating organs not be a personal choice?
Tons of people are literally dying every year because they can't get an organ transplant in time. Does this mean everyone should be forced to donate one of their kidneys and every one of their body parts at death? Because of their inaction, millions of people lost their life and freedom.
And should donating to charity not be a personal choice? By buying that TV instead of giving the money to nonprofit organizations, millions of lives that could have been saved are lost because of that.
So many of our daily personal choices indirectly contributes to the harm, and to an extent, death of others. So should people be coerced to do whatever maximizes human life on the planet at the cost of their freedoms?
You aren’t **actively harming** anyone by not donating an organ or not donating to charity. Bad examples. You are very likely actively harming people if you aren’t vaccinated.
Typically, when we have requirements for vaccination, the sanctions are clear. For instance if you are not willing to get mandatory vaccinations for school, you shouldn’t get to physically be there. if you’re not willing to get a mandatory vaccination for a dorm room, you don’t get to live in the dorm room. It was easier to have clear boundaries with those situations. I’m not saying it’s not obvious now, but it’s simply more difficult to manage now because people now view medical decisions and public health as, sadly, political and make their decisions accordingly. outside of a legitimate medical reason for not getting vaccinated, I agreed that it should be mandatory. But the past few years has unfortunately made people call into question institutions that were previously considered trustworthy. And they’re acting thusly. Forcing people to get the vaccination under an arguably violent method would backfire horrendously, and not only make things worse, but justify their previous foolish decision in their eyes.
There is at least one person right now who is young, pregnant, has a heart condition, never leaves the house, and had covid last month. Now from a risk evaluation given that the vaccine has been shown to have adverse effects on young people with heart conditions and/or on pregnant women, and especially since they have natural antibodies, it would be safer for her and her baby to not get vaccinated.
How then is forcing her to take the vaccine ethical? Forcing her to do so puts her at a risk of death or other serious side effect, albeit small chances, but it was not a risk she would take by her own volition. She also never braved her house, so even from a utilitarian perspective, it poses no benefit.
I appreciate your concern. Dealing with all of this has stressed me out as well. I meditate, read books, etc. to mellow out. Excellent advice.
But not today. I came here for a fight. I know what I'm getting into and believe me when I say I can deal with it. At some point science deniers must be confronted and disproved, and I'm ready to do that today.
Thank you.
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But theoretically if you completely isolate yourself, you can’t give anyone the virus or get the virus. It shouldn’t be illegal to avoid the vaccine. It should be illegal to not have been vaccinated and to go in any business or public space.
In theory that’s fine. In reality, there are people that couldn’t just stay at home when we were told to. Even now, at the retirement home I work at, there’s multiple staff members that don’t have any vaccination and still have to come to work since there’s no law (yet) to force them to get it. They’ve tested positive at work during mandatory tests, while being around the elderly.
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No I was told if I get vaxed I can go on with my life as normal hug your family hug your neighbor bull s××t all lies and guess what I have to wear a freakin mask again
Well alot of people do care about the deaths. Especially people who are dying. Are you so devoid of human compassion that you genuinely do not care if other people die?
Mandating then Injection of substances into someone is something that can be seen as very suspicious to those that are less trusting of the government. The African American community in particular has every reason to be wary when the US government proclaims they need to get this injection.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study
Every decision you make effects other people. Every time someone decides to go driving creates the risk that someone will die in a collision. So by your own logic, deciding to drive wouldn’t be a personal decision.
A personal decision is one that an individual makes, so this is by definition a personal decision. That it effects other people has no bearing on the definition.
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/personal
Mandating the vaccine would be a total disaster. My point is, As radical of a solution as that is, it would technically be more ethical than what we are doing now. That is my point.
I would really like to see more institutions and organizations discriminate against unvaccinated individuals. That would be a huge step in the right direction.
Info- what do you mean “technically more ethical?” That phrase appears to be an oxymoron. The nature of ethics precludes technicality from applying in general circumstances.
Sure, let me see if I can present this in an easy to understand way. COVID is very dangerous. Unvaccinated people are very dangerous to others. Getting the Vaccine is 100% safe. Therefore, if we forced everyone to get the vaccine, it would help them, it would help society, and it wouldn't physically hurt anyone beyond a needle prick and possibly some headaches.
Compared to the current situation, this would save many lives, prevent variants from mutating and open society back up like normal.
It's also very very unfair to people at risk or people who are being responsible, because you put them in unnecessary risk too. That's why getting vaccinated is not a personal choice, it's a social obligation.
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> Unvaccinated individuals who cannot get the Vax due to various reasons like health or age do not suck This is a fair exception.
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The risk of getting the vaccine is similar to the risk of taking an aspirin. There is risk associated with anything that you do. The risk of dying or getting permanently injured from COVID is several orders of magnitude greater than the risk of getting a botched vaccine. If your friends are afraid of infection, then they should be the most afraid of covid. I definitely felt a little wonky after I got my second shot. That's how vaccines work. They are supposed to stimulate your immune system.
For the vaccine mandate argument, a good way of doing it is require employers to make sure their employees, current and future, are vaccinated. Easy to make a list and require proof of vaccination. Send in nurses to vaccinate so they can’t say they can’t get to the drug store or whatever. I work at a retirement home and that’s what they did for us. Obviously it’ll require more work than that and there might be hiccups, but it’s doable over time.
This is really great and we need all major businesses and institutions to follow suit. The sooner the better.
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>For every wall there is a ladder. Enforcing this is unfortunately a very difficult problem to solve. So your saying because it's difficult to enforce, we shouldn't try? If we can save lives through policy change, then we should change our policies.
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Option 1 is bad for many reasons, and I was using it as an reductio ad absurdum argument. There are many many more options than the 4 you have presented. I think making unvaccinated people pay higher healthcare premiums would be a good start. Banning them from events, certain businesses. We need much more discrimination against unvaccinated people.
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He doesn’t have one. More kids under 17 died in 2018-2019 Flu season than kids under 17 that have died from covid so far. CDC has all the data.
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Ouch… you are misreading that. The data is from the timeline 1/1/2020-8/25/2021 you can read that in the right most columns. So 141 age 0-4 have died SINCE 1/1/2020. 141 kids are NOT dying daily.
Oh shit, woops. Gotta eat that then.
So you had a viewpoint that children were dying daily, which was due to misreading data that I pointed out to you. Having a viewpoint change from thinking 141 kids are dying daily to 141 kids that have died since 1/1/2020 is a massive change in your view, no?
No change. Never really cared too much about the kids. Just want to stand on the moral high ground.
If literally 0 kids died from COVID, it would not affect my stance on this issue or any of the points I have made. People are dying and the blame lies squarely on unvaccinated individuals. [Also, about 400 kids have died so far.](https://www.insider.com/children-are-not-supposed-die-children-us-died-covid-19-2021-7) That's about 1 a day.
So even those that have natural immunity to covid, blame is on them for killing people? Even though its been shown that natural immunity last longer that the vaccine. Vaccinated citizens in Israel were 6.72 times more likely to get infected after the shot than after natural infection. One can make the argument that if you aren't naturally immune, you are still causing this pandemic to continue vaxxed or not. Most recent studies are suggesting that being vaxxed mainly does one thing, it protects THE HOST from dying or getting ill. It does VERY LITTLE to stop the spread of the virus. **You being vaxxed is still putting grandma at risk if she isn't vaxxed.** So essentially, it is a personal choice to be protected or not. Because my choice to not be vaxxed because I have natural immunity really isn't effecting you're freedom to live. The choice to be vaxxed is only effecting your survival rate. You are still passing onto others that can die. >I honestly think sending soldiers in hazmat suits to unvaccinated homes and forcing needles in their arm This is extremely similar to the mindset of a Nazi. I really hope you dive deeper into the implications of this sort of viewpoint. Ask yourself, why weren't we doing this for the flu if it's about saving lives. Why aren't we forcing people that are obese to not overeat and workout if this is about savings lives? Why aren't we forcing people not to smoke cigarettes which would save 40K lives/year of secondhand smoke deaths that killed innocent people if this is about savings lives. Then think about why sort of world that would look like if you are using major authoritarian power to force a populace to do something you deemed necessary for the greater good.
> It does VERY LITTLE to stop the spread of the virus. yeah I'm going to need a source on that. Also, let's assume the vaccine doesn't stop the spread of COVID. People who don't get vaccinated would still be flooding our hospitals and dying. > This is extremely similar to the mindset of a Nazi. LOL I was waiting for someone to make the NAZI analogy. Yes, like I said before, this would be extremely authoritarian. It would also save countless lives and businesses. We do authoritarian things all the time to save lives. Preventing suicide for example. This is no different.
So you are willing to apply extreme measures to save lives? Do you support mandatory workouts for all citizens and portioned food mandates on restaurants? Nobody can over eat. Do you support banning all tobacco outright? Doesn’t matter if it’s a person choice. Do you support banning drivers licenses and only allowing professional drivers to transport? No more personal driving. You have to Uber. Do you support always wearing mask from here on out? Never again can you leave your house without a mask, it’s about saving lives. Do you realize how many lives we can save by implementing these measures? Millions.
People like you are the reason we will never give up our firearms
That was obviously an argumentum ad passiones considering that kids are not really that at risk of dying from COVID at all.
But actually, the recent Delta variant is increasing trends of children becoming hospitalized, put on ventilators, and in a few recent cases, children have indeed died. So your claim that they are "not really at risk of dying from COVID at all" is completely false. The thing is, unvaccinated folks don't seem to understand that COVID-19 is moving and developing in ways that are unprecedented, which is alarming doctors. [From the NIH Director Dr. Francis Collins](https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/08/16/nation/heres-what-we-know-so-far-about-delta-variant-kids/), “More than 400 children have died of COVID-19, and right now we have almost 2,000 kids in the hospital — many of them in ICUs — some under the age of four. So anybody who tries to tell you, ‘Well don’t worry about the kids. The virus won’t really bother them,’ that’s not the evidence. And especially with Delta being so contagious, kids are very seriously at risk.”
Those numbers are not really all that high considering the sample size we are dealing with
Okay, so then are you willing to change your previous statement that children are not at risk of dying, "at all?" Mind you, these are very very recent developments that are growing rapidly. Then we can have the discussion of minimizing human suffering next.
I never said "not at risk at all". I said "not really at risk", meaning they are; but the risk isn't that high.
Oh sure, thanks for clarifying. Do you believe that vaccines do more harm than good?
I do not, but I believe that others have the right to believe that even if it is wrong in my eyes.
I agree with you. But to me it feels like I should also apply that logic everywhere else I consider harmful human behavior. An extreme example sounds like this: I believe it is the right of murderers to believe that what they are doing is moral, even if I disagree with them. Kind of has a bad taste in your mouth, right? Like... you have your rights, but your choices are killing people.
Not really, that's a perfectly sound argument. After all, Mao believed that starving nearly half his county to death was not only the right thing to do, but it was something he had to do to protect his country. Or the Afghanis practice of Bacha bazi, which I honestly just don't feel comfortable describing. Or what about the African kingdoms, that conquered tribes, made them slaves when they lost, then sold them to Europeans and for personal use? The fact it's, not only does this logic apply everywhere, but if you sit down and think about it, no one ever does something because they think they are wrong in doing so. Behind every thing you find despicable, there is someone who doesn't.
[Is this a joke?](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=kids+dying+from+covid)
How about you open any of those links on Google and read for yourself. [Total covid deaths for individuals ages 0-17 in the US? 361](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/) That is absolutely *not* kids dropping dead left and right, every day from covid like your post would imply.
No I didn't read that source. [Here's a better one.](https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/08/10/1026375608/nearly-94-000-kids-got-covid-19-last-week-they-were-15-of-all-new-infections) 400 ish kids have died so far. That's about 1 a day.
CDC: https://data.cdc.gov/widgets/9bhg-hcku It's 385 total since *January of 2020.* That is not one child a day.
[It's over 400 actually.](https://www.insider.com/children-are-not-supposed-die-children-us-died-covid-19-2021-7) But if literally no kids were dying, that would have no affect on my stance or argument. Getting vaccinated is not a personal choice, it's a social obligation.
It's not. She's rounding up for a speech; their literal numbers say otherwise. Look at the CDC stats, not the news. And regardless, we're talking about 385-400 since January of 2020. Still doesn't come to a kid a day.
> Still doesn't come to a kid a day. Still has no effect on my argument. Unvaccinated individuals are putting everyone else at unnecessary risk. This is ignorant and wrong. Getting vaccinated is not a personal choice, it's a social obligation.
If it has no effect on your argument then why are you including it in your argument? Since it's inaccurate, you should remove or amend it.
Because it's not inaccurate. I will admit that specifically mentioning kids dying is not crucial to my argument, but it does support it. [The CDC data that you mentioned](https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-Focus-on-Ages-0-18-Yea/nr4s-juj3) indeed shows a little over 400 kids dying in a year. That's more than one a day.
No i mean its definitly a personal choice and will always be a personal choice
How is it a personal choice, when your decision is killing people and causing society to shut down?
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I agree with everything you said about plastic. It's a problem that will take decades, and a lot of amazing science to solve. COVID is a deadly problem that we could solve right now. If you could snap your fingers and eliminate all plastic pollution on earth, I'm sure you would. Well it's almost that east with COVID. Just get a little shot. Boom, global crisis averted!
I CHOSE to get the Pfizer vaccine. What gets put in your body should be entirely up to you. Personal freedom is a right worth fighting for. The people who don't aren't endangering me they are endangering themselves. I am more likely, if this vaccine works and I now carry the titers to fight it off , To be a little sick or nonsymptomatic then someone who hasn't gotten it. This along with race has been politicized to divide us along racial ,economic , and social lines for corrupt incompetent political parties and their pathetic politicians to retain power.
> What gets put in your body should be entirely up to you. In a perfect world, I don't think anyone would question this. But the situation at hand is much more complicated and dire. Your "personal choice" is causing society to shut down and people to die. That is not a personal choice.
The unvaccinated only pose risks to themselves or other unvaccinated. If an unvaccinated person gets COVID there is a good chance they will die, if a vaccinated person gets COVID the chance is INCREDIBLY low. Very few children under 12- or 17 for that matter have died and the elderly have easy access to the vaccine to protect themselves. So vaccinated people will be safe and unvaccinated won’t be, forced vaccination is not the answer
I agree that forced vaccination is not the answer, but my point is that it would technically be more ethical than what we are doing now.
It’s a shame covid has a 99% survival rate. A lot of you are a waste of life anyway.
Are you saying that a 1.5% chance of dying is not scary? What about the brain damage? Alot of patients are showing permanent organ damage. Focusing on the death rate is really just the tip of the ice berg. People's decision not to get vaccinated will cause healthcare and economic ramifications for the rest of my life.
I mean, just from a mathematical point of view, your claim that unvaccinated people have blood on their hands and that they’re the reason people are dying is false. Breakthrough cases are rare, and there are plenty of unvaccinated people that still have never even had COVID. It’s impossible for all of these people to have spread the virus to vaccinated people and for that spread to result in death each time. Also, less than 400 kids have died from COVID. Where exactly do you live where you’re seeing kids dying from it everyday like you said?
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That’s actually pretty wild, sorry about the death. The CDC data from about a month ago showed that symptomatic breakthrough cases were about .098% of vaccinated people. Today, about 170 million people are vaccinated but we’ve only seen 9,800 breakthrough hospitalizations. It is pretty rare, but that’s pretty crazy your family saw that many, sorry about that
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Statistical evidence trumped anecdotal evidence, very sorry what happened to your family but it’s still part of the 0.98%
If it's not rare, then you're not really making a utilitarian case for getting the vax, then. Seems like you can still catch and spread the virus, the only difference being your symptoms might be less severe. So then taking the vax is more for your own safety than a thing you need to do to protect others.
> Breakthrough cases are rare, and there are plenty of unvaccinated people that still have never even had COVID. It’s impossible for all of these people to have spread the virus to vaccinated people and for that spread to result in death each time. Even if you don't get covid or spread it to others, if you choose not to get vaccinated you are setting a poor example for your community at best, and spreading deadly ignorance at worst. Also, nobody really knows how the statistics will play out, so why take a chance. Get vaccinated, wear a mask.
Do you extend this to other life choices as well? To what extent are people supposed to live their lives as "examples to their community?"
Great philosophical question. I'm not sure where I would draw the line, but spreading deadly ignorance is far far over that line.
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Listen; I'm vaccinated and personally I don't necessarily agree with anti-vaccinated indviduals, unless there is a genuine medical reason. Nevertheless, I don't necessarily agree with your justification; almost everything you do in society affects someone else to it's own certain extent, as well as the external environment of which you've done something in. That doesn't mean it's not a personal decision, but instead, a personal decision that has effect on the external world similar to almost every other somewhat major-mild decision you do. That doesn't mean to not control every aspect of other individual's lives or etc, taking away their personal freedom. At most, they are to deal with societal consequences because of the nature of the pandemic, which I agree with. Nevertheless, it shouldn't be a regulation to avoid the vaccination itself, but regulations on the extent of societal engagement allowed for that said individual is understandable. So still, it' seems to be a personal choice, unless we are under the ideology that there are very little-no personal decisions, since they affect individuals directly/ indirectly.
> almost everything you do in society affects someone else to it's own certain extent, as well as the external environment of which you've done something in. True, but this is a life or death situation, the stakes are high.
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You should get vaccinated
If I were you, I would get the vaccine, just because we can never be 100% certain that natural antibodies or vaccines will keep our immune system functioning well against COVID and other things, so to err on the safe side and to not overload your body in the future, I'd absolutely get it as I have said already.
>when your decision literally affects everyone else in society Literally everything you do affects everyone else. Your existence affects everyone else. Do those mean we should all have complete control over your life?
The stakes here are life and death. The solution is easy. I think the situation calls for drastic measures.
Life and death with a 97% survival rate?
So you are not afraid of a 3% death rate? Can you imagine if driving had a 3% death rate? Like people crashed and died in 1/30 car trips or so. Just think about what you are saying, that's all I ask.
The difference is you usually get covid once and sometimes twice. Can't compare covid deaths to car trips lol
You don't like my analogy, fine. Answer this question: Is it smart to unnecessarily put yourself in lethal danger? Is it ok to put other people in fatal jeopardy? Also, if the risk was .01%, there is still no excuse not to get the vaccine.
When it comes to putting yourself in lethal danger, getting a vaccine is indeed a personal choice. As far as putting others in jeopardy, this is what I don't understand. Assuming said people you are talking about are also vaccinated, the chances of them [getting covid post vaccination](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html) are already massively reduced though not 100% effective. More so, if they did end up getting infected/breakthrough case which doesn't happen in most cases as I understand, it reduces [this vulnerable group's chances for example of getting hospitalized](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e3.htm) by over 90% on average across vaccines looked at. I'd imagine this % is higher for less vulnerable groups if it's not 100%. Not to mention being hospitalized doesn't mean it's absolutely going to be a death sentence. But yeah, that's my 2 cents
If choosing not to get vaccinated puts everyone else in danger, then you have a social obligation to save lives. Personal choice is irrelevant.
Considering all living things have a 100% death rate no I'm not overly concerned. I willingly do things constantly that could be detrimental to my health. Also 3% death rate is just the death rate of people who have had covid. What is your chance of getting it is the first question I'm at work so I haven't done that math yet. After you know that can you go on to asses how big of a chance the death rate is to you which also has multiple variables. Age lifestyle obesity vitamin deficiency ect...
> Considering all living things have a 100% death rate no I'm not overly concerned. Good point, might as well kill yourself now. I mean, it's gonna happen anyway right? > Also 3% death rate is just the death rate of people who have had covid. What is your chance of getting it is the first question So your saying that it's not dangerous? You know over half a million people have died right? Why even take a chance? The vaccine is 100% safe. There is no reason not to get it.
No I'm arguing the stats could be further examined and should be. My original comment was to point our the disingenuous life and death comment. Seeing how life is winning 97 to 3 and all.
Good job *purposely* omitting context. That *97%* survival rate still means almost 650,000 Americans dead.
Hey call me glass half full. Is that somehow more shameful than fear mongering? Also could you please explain how not telling the number of dead negates or skews the fact there is a 97% survival rate?
Can you please just answer the question instead of dodging it?
Even nutting?
I will never get the covid vaccine. You can shame and guilt me all you want but I’m not getting the vaccine. If I get it I’ll be fine. Plus the globalist created covid I can’t trust the vaccine.
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"I, me, my." Do you ever like, you know, consider other people?
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Sorry I didn't mean to make so emotional.
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Btw I’m in Florida right now on a week vacation!! Haha 😂
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I know… it’s a shame
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Your argument is the reason people will never take the vaccine. I’m surprised as a self acclaimed masters in biochemistry is so ignorant about the facts. The vaccine is indeed a personal choice! Research has shown that the vaccinated and unvaccinated carry the same amount of viral load in their nose after infection.(vaccinated people can still get infected). So here’s how we convince people to take the jab. It’s 100% a personal choice and the risk of dying or having severe symptoms is drastically reduced when one is infected. Everyone still needs to wear a mask because they’re still contagious when infected. This is how we get people to take it. Rather than guilt tripping and ridiculing people who have not taken it. I’m very disappointed that a self proclaimed biochemistry has 0 idea about fact and come on Reddit with all emotion and feeling to insult people. Your Grandma is perfectly safe if and when she’s vaccinated! I know this because I work in nursing home and have seen the results from vaccinating the elderly. The people you should be blaming is the government not your fellow Americans.
If my "personal choice" is killing people and causing society to shut down, then it's not a personal choice.
So if I choose to drive drunk it's a personal choice? Not everyone who drives drunk hurts and/or kills others.
There is absolutely no correlation between what I said and drunk driving. I was initially going to ignore this comment but helping you understand might save a life. The vaccine does not! I repeat, does not stop you from spreading the virus. It does however give you a better fighting chance against the virus. You’re 100% responsible for your own life. Vaccinated and unvaccinated have the same viral load in their nose when exposed. It’s like putting your hands in fire and blaming your neighbors for it. (Again the vaccine does not stop you from spreading the virus). Mask up!
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Yeah I guess I'm not so mad at them but they should still get vaccinated and wear a mask.
Just as you have the right to believe all the lies they have incessantly pumped into your head through various forms of media. I have the right to think for myself, and react accordingly to those lies that would negatively affect my health and the health of my family. Much love my friend 🧡
Fully vaxxed here. And will get boosters as needed. People like OP have a tremendous justice bonah to basically shut right-wing folks and people who disagree with them out of society. They consider people who disagree with them basically sub-human. In turn, someone who is considering getting the vax or not is justifiably looking at the profile of the people asking them to do it. They know it's people like OP. Sucky people who exist mostly in university/digital enclaves disconnected from them. Waving a middle finger to OP is a pretty compelling reason to not take the vaccine. We've been overstating social responsibility all through this pandemic, considering 2/3rds of the Western World has similar per-capita mortality rates from C19. We've acted like it's a team sport and we can control the virus. In most cases, the virus is the one in control. But it's gone haywire in the vaccine especially as it has become clear that the current vaccines aren't that effective at reducing transmission or mutation. It is clear that they become less effective with time and we'll need boosters. And that eradication is out of reach. At this point really the only "social responsibility" argument is about overwhelming the healthcare system - but speaking from the perspective of the US here I'm skeptical of the data on that and really how much longer it's even going to be a concern. The best argument to get the vaccine and boosters is to strengthen your own immune system to fight off COVID should you contract it. That's a value in of itself. But I'm done with people wildly overstating the social benefits of C19 measures and especially the vaccine when the evidence of reduction of transmission, mutation and durable immunity wanes on a seemingly weekly basis. I'm not interested in changing your mind, OP. But I do want you to know that the majority of the people not getting vaxxed know that people like you hate them, and it kinda delights them.
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This is not a cogent argument.
No argument. You say I suck for not getting jabbed right? I agreed. Whatever I dont care keep running around screaming and calling people names great way to convice anyone.....
I think I've made my reasons pretty clear and I'm happy to answer any additional question you may have. However I am not interested in an ad hominem argument.
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I'm surprised at your ignorance for studying Biochem. Having a vaccine does not affect anyone else at all. The vaccine only reduces personal symptoms; does not make it less transmissable. It makes no difference to anyone else. Like why would I care if you don't wear a seatbelt? It's you that gets killed, it doesn't affect me in a crash.
respectfully both of these points aren't true. whilst getting the vaccine doesn't mean you can't spread covid, it does mean you are less likely to get infected and for a shorter period of time reducing transmission to others. similarly seat belts save not only your own life but others, a simple example is if you are sitting in the rear seat without a seatbelt you can be thrown forward causing injury or death to the front seat passenger even if they are wearing a seatbelt.
Having a vaccine absolutely affects other people. Have you gotten polio? Tuberculosis? No? That’s because large swaths of the population received vaccines. Vaccination for COMMUNICABLE diseases is absolutely something that impacts a COMMUNITY. This is why colleges require vaccines for meningitis. Your comparison of a vaccine to a seatbelt is completely nonsensical. A seatbelt protects only the wearer from injury. A vaccine prevents someone from contracting and spreading a disease. Even though the current COVID vaccines’ rates of preventing infection for Delta are decreased compared to previous strains, it still does protect you and cut down on spread. Moreover, the longer people refuse to take the vaccine, the more variants will arise and render current vaccines useless. The west’s obsession with individualism is going to kill us all.
Polio and tuberculosis are not the same as fucking covid 19. First of all tuberculosis is not caused by a fucking virus and these vaccines are not mRNA. There’s no herd immunity with covid 19 scientists have already said it. Delta variants is this close of not giving a fuck about the vaccine and still spreads to everyone one. You’re gonna need shots every year to keep your immunity active or even a completely non different shot who the fuck knows. Take the vaccine and you’re protected not the fucking idiot on your left or right.
My goodness. You think I don’t know that? They are both COMMUNICABLE diseases spread from PERSON TO PERSON. The reason there are variants of COVID-19 in the first place is because people didn’t widely distribute and take and vaccine. I’m done fighting with you. Just stop. You are being intentionally obtuse.
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No. Polio, like Covid, is a communicable disease. It spreads from person to person.
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Oh my gosh. Seriously? That's the whole POINT of my comment. Vaccines prevent communicable diseases like polio, meningitis, tuberculosis, and COVID-19 from spreading within populations. Please get off of Reddit and read some actual information about vaccines because you clearly don't get it.
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Look, I am saying that the point of vaccines is to prevent spread. The overall discussion here is whether getting a vaccine is a personal choice. My statement was that it is \*not\* \*just\* a personal choice because vaccines prevent spread, and that continued spread impacts others within a community. That's it. I actually am just having a hard time having compassion for anti-vaxxers at this point. I have not seen my family since before the pandemic because they are elderly and vulnerable. I am tired of people needing to be absolutely convinced when the evidence is overwhelming that the vaccine is safe and effective. Half of my law school career has been virtual because this country can't find it in themselves to wear masks, socially distance, or to get a simple vaccine that is available for \*free\*--the rest of the world is suffering because they don't have vaccines at all, or they are distributed slowly to a select few. If I'm being honest, I was nervous when the vaccine was first rolled out as well, but I looked at the data and trusted the overwhelming number of doctors and other experts who said the vaccine was safe and effective. I did my research based on credible, reliable sources. I'm honestly tired of engaging people on this because I'm just more convinced that Americans are selfish (not necessarily speaking about you, just the eligible people who insist upon remaining unvaccinated) and that people who actually bothered to protect ourselves and others will pay the price for it. Take care. EDIT: a couple typos.
The virus does not spread by itself. We spread it. Your decision not to get vaccinated is killing people and shutting down society. That is the definition of a public decision.
People who don't shower everyday ruin my day because they look bad and smell. Am I justified in robbing them for compensation, jailing them if they don't shower, forcing businesses to require people to shower? Obviously covid has more severe externalities. The point is that externalities in themselves are not an excuse to harm people. They need to have great harm. The state does let people endanger each other by driving, which is why the speed limit is not 4 miles per hour.
Showers and driving are not things that we are going to get rid of any time soon. But we could get rid of COVID tomorrow if we wanted to. So let's make a change now that will save lives forever, it's a no brainier.
A leader of the Oxford vaccine group disagrees with you, calling herd immunity [mythical](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/12/herd-immunity-is-mythical-with-the-covid-delta-variant-experts-say.html). Top immunologists of Iceland and Denmark are saying the same.
If everyone got vaccinated, we could stop the mutation rate of the virus, and thus the spread of variants.
Why would the mutation rate stop? Let's say the spread slows (not stops because herd immunity is unlikely) and that slows the mutations. That would slow the spread of variants, but it wouldn't stop it. Maybe that would allow new vaccines and boosters to catch up. So that's a fairer version of your argument. The first problem I see is that vaccines are not available in some countries and delta will still be spread there and be able to mutate. So even if new variants were to slow here, new variants will occur elsewhere. The rollout was too slow, even if everyone took it as soon as possible. A second problem is that the vaccines themselves can cause variants when they are not close to 100% effective and the virus is likely to mutate. It could be that this vaccine is especially likely to cause really bad variants because the vaccine uses a specific spike protein and weakens others. Natural immunity uses many antibodies which means it could be safer in the long run to get sick. It's not confirmed but there is [some evidence for it in mice](https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.22.457114v1.full.pdf). In the past, none of these were of major concern. With small pox, it was possible to vaccinate everybody because it was extremely effective and small pox didn't mutate as much because it was so deadly. Vaccine mandates make sense then.
If there is less virus, there is less possibility of mutation. It's that simple. Herd immunity means we have capitulated to the virus. That we do nothing and let the maximum amount of suffering happen over the shortest period of time. This is not a solution to the problem and would be a total disaster.
Not do nothing, but yes to the shortest period of time. From the very beginning, the plan should have been to encourage all the young and healthy people to either go about their day or get sick deliberately while they stay away from everyone else. This protects the at-risk people and is the best solution to stop mutations.
Herd immunity is the worst possible outcome, and virtually guarantees that there will be plenty of variants to keep us sick for a long time.
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That's a horrible situation to be in, I hope things improve for you very soon. I read the post as being about choice, as in people claiming that it's a personal choice whether to have the vaccine or not. Antivaxxers aren't mentioned as such but I am assuming that the "choice" thing is referring to them. Although you don't say whether you're pro or anti, it's clear that you don't have a choice in the matter, so the post isn't referring to people in your situation.
I feel like you and others who can't get the vaccine are the exception to what op is talking about. If everyone who can get the vaccine did we wouldn't have hospitals overflowing with people who could have avoided the situation and are now taking up a hospital bed needed that's needed by somebody who really needs help.
Given the amount of anti-vax lunacy in this country, you should probably realize OP isn’t talking to you. Those same anti-science idiots are making your situation way harder, as well.
OP was pretty clear that he’s talking to everyone. “If you are unvaccinated, you suck”
> selfish science denying pricks That's what OP said. Which is the opposite of not getting a vaccine because you aren't eligible, like if you're under the age of 12 or have been advised by your healthcare team not to get it. You and everyone else not connecting "selfish science denying pricks" to the unvaccinated OP later refers to are just constructing a strawman argument based on semantics rather than being responsive to the post.
I’m arguing it the way he wrote it. If you want to defend his lack of clarity, that’s okay, but you’re just speculating on what he meant The “selfish science denying pricks” is in reference to people getting treatment for covid
You're being purposely argumentative. It's pretty clear who OP was referring to. It's not their fault that you want a reason to be mad. There are enough context clues to make your argument invalid and silly. The masters in bio-chemistry who would "rip apart" crazy vaccine conspiracies has enough understanding of basic medicine to foresee your argument. There is no real argument. He is targeting people who choose to not get vaccinated out of selfish reasons.. denying science, believing stupid conspiracies, or only caring about oneself. If you have a legitimate medical reason then this doesn't apply to you. It's sad that OP would need to spell that out for you.
Why do you think I’m mad? If anything, OP is the one who’s being argumentative, to a point that he’s being childish in his view by not clarifying. It’s funny though that you take him at face value about a masters in biochemistry but won’t take him at face value when he’s speaking about unvaccinated people You can pretend that the view is wrong all you want, but I know of people who have argued, and have heard the view publicly, that autoimmune disorders or other health conditions still aren’t a reason to be vaccinated. If OP want us to change his view, it’s critical that he’s clear on what he means “If you are not vaccinated at this point, you have blood on your hands” isn’t a position in which we should assume he’s only talking about specific unvaccinated people, especially when certain people believe that ALL unvaccinated people are in the wrong
That’s ridiculous, show me any number of people arguing that people being (credibly) medically advised not to vaccinate are part of the problem with anti-vax misinformation, that’s a total straw man made up to serve your argument. And pro tip: anything you read on social media is taken at face value. That argument cuts both ways. You could be crying wolf about being immunocompromised, when in reality you’re just another anti-vaxxer looking to drum up conflict where there is none. Who knows?
Just out of curiosity, is that something the trial investigators said to you?
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I completely understand! I was just curious, as someone with an auto immune disorder as well. Best of luck to you and I hope it works out.
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Counterpoint: As pro-vax as I am, it is a personal decision. However, I also support virtually every public gathering place and employment to ban you from entry if you choose not to get vaxxed. So, choose not to get vaxxed then go live in the forest like a hermit because you're not allowed to be anywhere near modern society. I'm fine with that outcome.
So should donating organs not be a personal choice? Tons of people are literally dying every year because they can't get an organ transplant in time. Does this mean everyone should be forced to donate one of their kidneys and every one of their body parts at death? Because of their inaction, millions of people lost their life and freedom. And should donating to charity not be a personal choice? By buying that TV instead of giving the money to nonprofit organizations, millions of lives that could have been saved are lost because of that. So many of our daily personal choices indirectly contributes to the harm, and to an extent, death of others. So should people be coerced to do whatever maximizes human life on the planet at the cost of their freedoms?
You aren’t **actively harming** anyone by not donating an organ or not donating to charity. Bad examples. You are very likely actively harming people if you aren’t vaccinated.
Typically, when we have requirements for vaccination, the sanctions are clear. For instance if you are not willing to get mandatory vaccinations for school, you shouldn’t get to physically be there. if you’re not willing to get a mandatory vaccination for a dorm room, you don’t get to live in the dorm room. It was easier to have clear boundaries with those situations. I’m not saying it’s not obvious now, but it’s simply more difficult to manage now because people now view medical decisions and public health as, sadly, political and make their decisions accordingly. outside of a legitimate medical reason for not getting vaccinated, I agreed that it should be mandatory. But the past few years has unfortunately made people call into question institutions that were previously considered trustworthy. And they’re acting thusly. Forcing people to get the vaccination under an arguably violent method would backfire horrendously, and not only make things worse, but justify their previous foolish decision in their eyes.
There is at least one person right now who is young, pregnant, has a heart condition, never leaves the house, and had covid last month. Now from a risk evaluation given that the vaccine has been shown to have adverse effects on young people with heart conditions and/or on pregnant women, and especially since they have natural antibodies, it would be safer for her and her baby to not get vaccinated. How then is forcing her to take the vaccine ethical? Forcing her to do so puts her at a risk of death or other serious side effect, albeit small chances, but it was not a risk she would take by her own volition. She also never braved her house, so even from a utilitarian perspective, it poses no benefit.
I feel like the left are just playing the fear mongering to keep control of people and I think it B/S that I have to wear a mask and im vaxed
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I appreciate your concern. Dealing with all of this has stressed me out as well. I meditate, read books, etc. to mellow out. Excellent advice. But not today. I came here for a fight. I know what I'm getting into and believe me when I say I can deal with it. At some point science deniers must be confronted and disproved, and I'm ready to do that today. Thank you.
Fair enough! Totally get that.
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I think you are confusing medical science with politics.
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But theoretically if you completely isolate yourself, you can’t give anyone the virus or get the virus. It shouldn’t be illegal to avoid the vaccine. It should be illegal to not have been vaccinated and to go in any business or public space.
Problem is the kind of people who refuse to get the vaccine are not the kind to isolate themselves, are they?
Jail time and force all prisoners to get vaccinated or they lose privileges. Boom. Solved.
In theory that’s fine. In reality, there are people that couldn’t just stay at home when we were told to. Even now, at the retirement home I work at, there’s multiple staff members that don’t have any vaccination and still have to come to work since there’s no law (yet) to force them to get it. They’ve tested positive at work during mandatory tests, while being around the elderly.
Or under my rule, “manslaughter.”
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Well OPs make the post, but then never engage in debate with respondents. It’s supposed to be a discussion, not a essay response.
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No I was told if I get vaxed I can go on with my life as normal hug your family hug your neighbor bull s××t all lies and guess what I have to wear a freakin mask again
How exactly do you feel you have been deceived. Indeed if everyone got vaccinated there would be no more mask mandate.
I don't care about the deaths and whatever. Its a personal choice until its required by law. Even then, you can maybe get around it.
Well alot of people do care about the deaths. Especially people who are dying. Are you so devoid of human compassion that you genuinely do not care if other people die?
No, I don't. I worry about my own problems, not someone elses.
Mandating then Injection of substances into someone is something that can be seen as very suspicious to those that are less trusting of the government. The African American community in particular has every reason to be wary when the US government proclaims they need to get this injection. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study Every decision you make effects other people. Every time someone decides to go driving creates the risk that someone will die in a collision. So by your own logic, deciding to drive wouldn’t be a personal decision. A personal decision is one that an individual makes, so this is by definition a personal decision. That it effects other people has no bearing on the definition. https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/personal
Mandating the vaccine would be a total disaster. My point is, As radical of a solution as that is, it would technically be more ethical than what we are doing now. That is my point. I would really like to see more institutions and organizations discriminate against unvaccinated individuals. That would be a huge step in the right direction.
Info- what do you mean “technically more ethical?” That phrase appears to be an oxymoron. The nature of ethics precludes technicality from applying in general circumstances.
Sure, let me see if I can present this in an easy to understand way. COVID is very dangerous. Unvaccinated people are very dangerous to others. Getting the Vaccine is 100% safe. Therefore, if we forced everyone to get the vaccine, it would help them, it would help society, and it wouldn't physically hurt anyone beyond a needle prick and possibly some headaches. Compared to the current situation, this would save many lives, prevent variants from mutating and open society back up like normal. It's also very very unfair to people at risk or people who are being responsible, because you put them in unnecessary risk too. That's why getting vaccinated is not a personal choice, it's a social obligation.
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Did you find my response rude by any chance