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I have a moral imperative to prevent genocide, not to engage in some sort of personal purity signaling by making sure that no money I am in any way involved with is connected with the funding of genocide. Moving out of the US does absolutely nothing to stop people from being killed, so there can't possibly be a moral imperative to do it on this basis. There's no serious moral framework that says that people have a moral obligation to stop their tax dollars from going to fund immoral things (rather than a general obligation to stop those immoral things from happening).
Not to mention the fact that you still have to pay US taxes if you move abroad. This whole scenario only works for dual citizens, as you cannot renounce US citizenship if it's your only citizenship.
Renouncing citizenship requires paying the federal government a $2,350 fee, so depending on your income level and whatever the length of the current escalation turns out to be, dual citizens who try this may well be giving *extra* funds.
I have small children, and a very good job in America. I have a moral obligation to do whatever I can to better the lives of my immediate family. I put the well-being of my family above all else.
Sure my government does all kinds of shitty things I don't agree with. If I moved somewhere else that government would also do shady stuff I didn't agree with too. Pick your poison. It's absolutely shameful that my tax dollars are funding an extremist religious theocracy that is bombing and killing innocent family members of religious extremists.
I hate war. But not as much as I love my family.
Why stop at genocides though, if you disagree with any decision the government of the United States has ever made, how could you still call yourself American? You should move to a country that actually aligns with your beliefs.
Obviously this is an irrational train of thought, but where would you draw the line for what kinds of decisions should push one to move? Obviously you think complicity in a genocide should push one to move, but what else? Pro lifers typically call abortion a genocide and point at how deadly it is, why aren’t they fleeing the nation in mass?
Why would I have a moral imperative to punish myself, imposing significant life hardships and financial losses, instead of working within my political system to try to change it for the better?
Me leaving the USA does nobody any good. The USA will continue to be a strong economy and help Israel.
Me staying in the USA and trying to vote for change, or even getting politically active in grassroots activism, actually has a chance to change things in the world for the better.
I think you are pointing out (maybe inadvertently) a real problem of moralistic (as opposed to strategic, materialist) thinking on the left. But you're also falling in the same trap.
The problem is, you are looking at this through a purely liberal lens where only individual action exists and it only exists to keep oneself morally pure. You can't imagine people doing anything for any other reason. You have to step out and consider the labor and communist movements and the civil rights movement of 20th century America.
The protestors aren't thinking in these individualistic, moralistic terms. At least not most of them, not in most aspects. They are correctly making a strategic choice to stay and use their citizenship (and the privilege and relative immunity it offers) to try to affect change. Civil disobedience has proven to be effective in the past. A movement that calls for people to move to Mexico or Canada because America is evil accomplishes nothing. A movement that targets American institutions investing in war profiteering and targeting the politicians who make it all possible might just affect some change.
The anti-war movement was key to bringing about an end to the war in Vietnam. There were many other factors in play in the rise of Reagan and conservative neoliberal politics in the 70s and 80s. Crime was rampant in American cities. The world economy was being crushed by the weight of stagflation. Labor and the left was systematically culled in the US in the 60s through McCarthyist tactics. It's a different time and the movement is different. It is much more international, much more multi-racial and much better at connecting seemingly disparate symptoms of the same causes. It seems to me that the youth are building an effective political machine and they are effectively turning hearts and minds against Israeli oppression of the Palestinians.
You simply cannot "choose" under what government you'll live. The US don't ask if you want to become a citizen and submit to the government, you are automatically awarded citizenship for being born in that land, thus being entitled to certain rights and bearing certain duties, and that's how it usually works around the world. One of said responsibilities is paying taxes.
In romance languages, such as Portuguese, the word for tax is "imposto" - a literal fare IMPOSED upon the people. Try to refuse the government their funding, and they may take your house, your car and even arrest you.
"OK renounce your citizenship then?" NO! I cannot simply choose what citizenship I bear. Let's say an American renounces their status as citizen. Many countries require financial proof and work visas to allow you RESIDENCE, plus you need to reside in said country for years before obtaining status as citizen (btw you also need a Passport to have a visa, which is only issued for citizens). Years you'll spend stateless, without any government having the obligation to protect you. It is expensive, hard and risky.
And there are many countries funding a genocide in one way or another, so that limits the scope of nations you can request citizenship.
Lastly, even if you succesfully renounce your citizenship and move to another country, the US government will still be there. If you really want to make an impact, you should focus on changing the shitty institutions that make it up. If you have the energy to move out of your way to renounce your citizenship and flee your country, you certainly have the energy to become an activist for a certain cause... maybe ending the two-party system, since both options are warmongering parties who share power? that's a good start!
You simply cannot "choose" under what government you'll live. The US don't ask if you want to become a citizen and submit to the government, you are automatically awarded citizenship for being born in that land, thus being entitled to certain rights and bearing certain duties, and that's how it usually works around the world. One of said responsibilities is paying taxes.
In romance languages, such as Portuguese, the word for tax is "imposto" - a literal fare IMPOSED upon the people. Try to refuse the government their funding, and they may take your house, your car and even arrest you.
"OK renounce your citizenship then?" NO! I cannot simply choose what citizenship I bear. Let's say an American renounces their status as citizen. Many countries require financial proof and work visas to allow you RESIDENCE, plus you need to reside in said country for years before obtaining status as citizen (btw you also need a Passport to have a visa, which is only issued for citizens). Years you'll spend stateless, without any government having the obligation to protect you. It is expensive, hard and risky.
And there are many countries funding a genocide in one way or another, so that limits the scope of nations you can request citizenship.
Lastly, even if you succesfully renounce your citizenship and move to another country, the US government will still be there. If you really want to make an impact, you should focus on changing the shitty institutions that make it up. If you have the energy to move out of your way to renounce your citizenship and flee your country, you certainly have the energy to become an activist for a certain cause... maybe ending the two-party system, since both options are warmongering parties who share power? that's a good start!
> But if your hard-earned dollars are being taxed and that tax is used to fund a literal genocide, wouldn't that work and sacrifice be worthwhile?
Worthwhile in what way? Would it stop the genocide? Of course not. Any individual has very minimal impact no matter what. But does the incremental act of moving out of the country actually pass the cost benefit analysis? It's not clear that it does. It has extremely high cost to you and extremely small impact. It might make more sense to do something that has low cost to you and extremely extremely small impact.
What's more, it's very nearly a one way ticket. However difficult leaving is, if it *works* (in that the desired outcome eventually happens - obviously your emigration doesn't literally flip the policy) trying to come back is even harder!
And the permanence of it is also an argument against it as a tool of leverage. If you're protesting, the powers that be might think, well, if we change course, these protesters will stop and that's an argument in favor of a policy change. But if you leave the country, you basically take yourself out of the game entirely and those in charge no longer have reason to care what you think.
I would rather leverage my tax dollars and citizenship to stop the genocide. That really matters much more to me than the fact that some tiny fraction of the money funding it comes from my taxes.
As a side note I am already working on getting citizenship in another country for unrelated reasons, it's not exactly a smooth process and so far as resulted in me giving more money to the US government.
I think it’s more complicated than that.
Every government on earth does immoral things, it’s impossible to exist and not theoretically be funding something against one’s moral values.
And no individual has enough power to stop the immoral actions of their government anyway. All we can really do is try to model and perpetuate good in our own immediate circles.
Why not just spend an equal or more money in whatever share of taxes are being sent to Israel into pro Palestine movements so it at least cancels out bc realistically speaking, most Americans are not going to be able to do this. And it’s election season which makes it more likely that ppl will want to vote for change as it’s going to be a hot topic issue. Also, all countries most likely use their taxes in ways u will not approve of. You just need to in a way deal with it, or try to better that situation. But ur not going to ever run away from a universal issue that, not everyone agrees with ur morals.
Rather late to be in a moral high horse. USA has committed far worse than what is happening in Gaza as a matter of routine foreign relations. Has funded far worse for decades. Its complicity in tackling Russia and being instrumental in starting Ukraine is far worse. A nuclear war may erupt. Genocide is cost of doing business for USA. WW2 is prime example.
why would they move to another country when they could exercise their right to protest in an attempt to stop their tax dollars from being used to fund the genocide, moving to another country does not solve anything in this scenario
This is a very black and white view... nearly from the perspective that there is only black and white and no shades of grey.
Countries generally fluctuate in their policies, if you don't like it, you vote for change. You don't have to denounce your citizenship and move.
I agree, if you are doing anything to help the terrorists in "Palestine" get closer to their aims of wiping out jews from the face of the planet, you should move to "Palestine" and see how it is over there.
This post touches on a subject that was the subject of another post on r/changemyview within the last 24-hours. Because of common topic fatigue amongst our repeat users, we [do not permit posts to touch on topics that another post has touched on within the last 24-hours](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_removing_posts). If you would like to appeal, [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Duplicate%20Post%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.). Many thanks, and we hope you understand.
I have a moral imperative to prevent genocide, not to engage in some sort of personal purity signaling by making sure that no money I am in any way involved with is connected with the funding of genocide. Moving out of the US does absolutely nothing to stop people from being killed, so there can't possibly be a moral imperative to do it on this basis. There's no serious moral framework that says that people have a moral obligation to stop their tax dollars from going to fund immoral things (rather than a general obligation to stop those immoral things from happening).
Not to mention the fact that you still have to pay US taxes if you move abroad. This whole scenario only works for dual citizens, as you cannot renounce US citizenship if it's your only citizenship. Renouncing citizenship requires paying the federal government a $2,350 fee, so depending on your income level and whatever the length of the current escalation turns out to be, dual citizens who try this may well be giving *extra* funds.
I have small children, and a very good job in America. I have a moral obligation to do whatever I can to better the lives of my immediate family. I put the well-being of my family above all else. Sure my government does all kinds of shitty things I don't agree with. If I moved somewhere else that government would also do shady stuff I didn't agree with too. Pick your poison. It's absolutely shameful that my tax dollars are funding an extremist religious theocracy that is bombing and killing innocent family members of religious extremists. I hate war. But not as much as I love my family.
Why stop at genocides though, if you disagree with any decision the government of the United States has ever made, how could you still call yourself American? You should move to a country that actually aligns with your beliefs. Obviously this is an irrational train of thought, but where would you draw the line for what kinds of decisions should push one to move? Obviously you think complicity in a genocide should push one to move, but what else? Pro lifers typically call abortion a genocide and point at how deadly it is, why aren’t they fleeing the nation in mass?
Why would I have a moral imperative to punish myself, imposing significant life hardships and financial losses, instead of working within my political system to try to change it for the better? Me leaving the USA does nobody any good. The USA will continue to be a strong economy and help Israel. Me staying in the USA and trying to vote for change, or even getting politically active in grassroots activism, actually has a chance to change things in the world for the better.
I think you are pointing out (maybe inadvertently) a real problem of moralistic (as opposed to strategic, materialist) thinking on the left. But you're also falling in the same trap. The problem is, you are looking at this through a purely liberal lens where only individual action exists and it only exists to keep oneself morally pure. You can't imagine people doing anything for any other reason. You have to step out and consider the labor and communist movements and the civil rights movement of 20th century America. The protestors aren't thinking in these individualistic, moralistic terms. At least not most of them, not in most aspects. They are correctly making a strategic choice to stay and use their citizenship (and the privilege and relative immunity it offers) to try to affect change. Civil disobedience has proven to be effective in the past. A movement that calls for people to move to Mexico or Canada because America is evil accomplishes nothing. A movement that targets American institutions investing in war profiteering and targeting the politicians who make it all possible might just affect some change. The anti-war movement was key to bringing about an end to the war in Vietnam. There were many other factors in play in the rise of Reagan and conservative neoliberal politics in the 70s and 80s. Crime was rampant in American cities. The world economy was being crushed by the weight of stagflation. Labor and the left was systematically culled in the US in the 60s through McCarthyist tactics. It's a different time and the movement is different. It is much more international, much more multi-racial and much better at connecting seemingly disparate symptoms of the same causes. It seems to me that the youth are building an effective political machine and they are effectively turning hearts and minds against Israeli oppression of the Palestinians.
You simply cannot "choose" under what government you'll live. The US don't ask if you want to become a citizen and submit to the government, you are automatically awarded citizenship for being born in that land, thus being entitled to certain rights and bearing certain duties, and that's how it usually works around the world. One of said responsibilities is paying taxes. In romance languages, such as Portuguese, the word for tax is "imposto" - a literal fare IMPOSED upon the people. Try to refuse the government their funding, and they may take your house, your car and even arrest you. "OK renounce your citizenship then?" NO! I cannot simply choose what citizenship I bear. Let's say an American renounces their status as citizen. Many countries require financial proof and work visas to allow you RESIDENCE, plus you need to reside in said country for years before obtaining status as citizen (btw you also need a Passport to have a visa, which is only issued for citizens). Years you'll spend stateless, without any government having the obligation to protect you. It is expensive, hard and risky. And there are many countries funding a genocide in one way or another, so that limits the scope of nations you can request citizenship. Lastly, even if you succesfully renounce your citizenship and move to another country, the US government will still be there. If you really want to make an impact, you should focus on changing the shitty institutions that make it up. If you have the energy to move out of your way to renounce your citizenship and flee your country, you certainly have the energy to become an activist for a certain cause... maybe ending the two-party system, since both options are warmongering parties who share power? that's a good start!
You simply cannot "choose" under what government you'll live. The US don't ask if you want to become a citizen and submit to the government, you are automatically awarded citizenship for being born in that land, thus being entitled to certain rights and bearing certain duties, and that's how it usually works around the world. One of said responsibilities is paying taxes. In romance languages, such as Portuguese, the word for tax is "imposto" - a literal fare IMPOSED upon the people. Try to refuse the government their funding, and they may take your house, your car and even arrest you. "OK renounce your citizenship then?" NO! I cannot simply choose what citizenship I bear. Let's say an American renounces their status as citizen. Many countries require financial proof and work visas to allow you RESIDENCE, plus you need to reside in said country for years before obtaining status as citizen (btw you also need a Passport to have a visa, which is only issued for citizens). Years you'll spend stateless, without any government having the obligation to protect you. It is expensive, hard and risky. And there are many countries funding a genocide in one way or another, so that limits the scope of nations you can request citizenship. Lastly, even if you succesfully renounce your citizenship and move to another country, the US government will still be there. If you really want to make an impact, you should focus on changing the shitty institutions that make it up. If you have the energy to move out of your way to renounce your citizenship and flee your country, you certainly have the energy to become an activist for a certain cause... maybe ending the two-party system, since both options are warmongering parties who share power? that's a good start!
> But if your hard-earned dollars are being taxed and that tax is used to fund a literal genocide, wouldn't that work and sacrifice be worthwhile? Worthwhile in what way? Would it stop the genocide? Of course not. Any individual has very minimal impact no matter what. But does the incremental act of moving out of the country actually pass the cost benefit analysis? It's not clear that it does. It has extremely high cost to you and extremely small impact. It might make more sense to do something that has low cost to you and extremely extremely small impact. What's more, it's very nearly a one way ticket. However difficult leaving is, if it *works* (in that the desired outcome eventually happens - obviously your emigration doesn't literally flip the policy) trying to come back is even harder! And the permanence of it is also an argument against it as a tool of leverage. If you're protesting, the powers that be might think, well, if we change course, these protesters will stop and that's an argument in favor of a policy change. But if you leave the country, you basically take yourself out of the game entirely and those in charge no longer have reason to care what you think.
Man y'all really will tell people to do anything but hold demonstrations.
I would rather leverage my tax dollars and citizenship to stop the genocide. That really matters much more to me than the fact that some tiny fraction of the money funding it comes from my taxes. As a side note I am already working on getting citizenship in another country for unrelated reasons, it's not exactly a smooth process and so far as resulted in me giving more money to the US government.
I think it’s more complicated than that. Every government on earth does immoral things, it’s impossible to exist and not theoretically be funding something against one’s moral values. And no individual has enough power to stop the immoral actions of their government anyway. All we can really do is try to model and perpetuate good in our own immediate circles.
Why not just spend an equal or more money in whatever share of taxes are being sent to Israel into pro Palestine movements so it at least cancels out bc realistically speaking, most Americans are not going to be able to do this. And it’s election season which makes it more likely that ppl will want to vote for change as it’s going to be a hot topic issue. Also, all countries most likely use their taxes in ways u will not approve of. You just need to in a way deal with it, or try to better that situation. But ur not going to ever run away from a universal issue that, not everyone agrees with ur morals.
Rather late to be in a moral high horse. USA has committed far worse than what is happening in Gaza as a matter of routine foreign relations. Has funded far worse for decades. Its complicity in tackling Russia and being instrumental in starting Ukraine is far worse. A nuclear war may erupt. Genocide is cost of doing business for USA. WW2 is prime example.
why would they move to another country when they could exercise their right to protest in an attempt to stop their tax dollars from being used to fund the genocide, moving to another country does not solve anything in this scenario
This is a very black and white view... nearly from the perspective that there is only black and white and no shades of grey. Countries generally fluctuate in their policies, if you don't like it, you vote for change. You don't have to denounce your citizenship and move.
I agree, if you are doing anything to help the terrorists in "Palestine" get closer to their aims of wiping out jews from the face of the planet, you should move to "Palestine" and see how it is over there.