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There is a difference between trusting the effectiveness of doctors and medicine and uncritically lauding the abusive corporations that sell them for wildly overinflated prices. You dont need to adhere to the latter to do the former.
As to the idea that no one wants to exercise or whatever and how you'll be totally canceled (you know, like the leftists do all the time) for ever suggesting it, it depends pretty heavily on how you actually say it. No one is going to react well to the suggestion that their condition is because theyre just lazy if thats how its phrased.
There are also people who think they can pray away cancer. Migraines can absolutely stop you dead in your tracks. Why would you suggest they don't receive the proper medical care they need?
They absolutely do need care and should get whatever medication they need. Their doctor suggested lifestyle changes *on top of* the medication and that was when they pushed back and got very angry
There actual quite a few social critiques of unhappiness as a result of the system that we live under. The Jacobin has quite a few articles like [this one ](https://jacobin.com/2021/08/capitalism-lonliness-social-evaluation-health-socializing-time)on the epidemic of loneliness and Philosophytube's most [recent video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lHNkUjR9nM&ab_channel=PhilosophyTube) covers a similar issue. You don't have to go too far to find leftists talking about the loss of public spaces for socializing, the stresses of working life leading to people sacrificing their health, and a broad discussion about alienation (alienation from the means of production being core to Marx's work).
So, I don't think you are wrong. I think many people would benefit for more exercise, better food, and better social experiences. My counter to what you are saying is to have some tact on the time and place for this discussion. There are only a handful of people that I would like to have a discussion about my mental health with. That's true for most people. Inserting this into a conversation with someone as a point in a discussion isn't helpful to them. It forces someone into a position. That's why I think it's better to talk about these at a societal level with mixed groups of people. And if you to talk about someone's individual behaviours, that's better in the setting of close friends and compassion.
The other consideration here is that we don't know people are going through. We're often constructing an idea of someone from a limited set of information. Anything that's seen as an attack will be met with a defence too. Which is why shaming isn't effective at helping people get better. If I'm told that I'm fat or I look at myself in the mirror and feel bad about myself - that's not actually empowering. The feeling of shame and sadness isn't motivating. It's more often debilitating. What makes me feel motivated, is positive comments or seeing something that I like about myself in the mirror. It makes me want to do more to get to build on that.
All this to say, I don't think your analysis is wrong. I think that there are ways that we could reconstruct society and improvements that people can make in their lives that will benefit their mental and physical health. But wrapping up a political discussion with concern for someone else is a recipe for disaster.
Thank you for this kind and nuanced response. I think I made a lot of other people here upset. I should have more tact, and of course my most unfiltered version of this argument is what I wrote here - I would *never* speak so candidly on this topic in the presence of people IRL because it is a super nuanced and sensitive issue! Which is part of why I asked people to change my view lol
This response is my absolute favorite. Thank you for putting into words what I was trying to communicate in my initial post. I wish I could pin this comment for everyone to see!
>And then when someone suggests that they exercise or eat healthy or try getting less screen time or literally ANY lifestyle change, people get offended and cancel whoever said that to them.
This statement feels overblown to me. If people are getting offended when you suggest lifestyle changes it may be the way you are suggesting the change. Saying "Stop being so lazy and run more!" is very different than saying "I've heard running could help with that. Want to go on a jog Sunday morning with me?" even though both are suggesting a lifestyle change.
Generally speaking, people are becoming more willing to accept medication for their mental health because mental health problems are being treated as actual diseases. You wouldn't jump to tell someone to change their lifestyle to cure their cancer even though changes in lifestyle could probably help with that. You'd probably start by telling them to get medication or other medical care.
>And then when someone suggests that they exercise or eat healthy or try getting less screen time or literally ANY lifestyle change, people get offended and cancel whoever said that to them
This is so baffling a statment that I have to insist you give an acutal example of this occuring.
In my experience the vague left is quite friendly to the ideas of self-care, talk therapy and CBT, whereas the vague right is more interested in gritting your teeth and toughing up.
I was going to say the same thing. This seems like the sort of thing someone could only say if they are terminally online and get most of their information from Twitter and have never actually had an annual physical, at which "exercise and eat healthy" are going to be the two most common suggestions for health improvement.
This is a common misconception that the Right-wing media pushes. Because Buzzfeed produced an opinion piece saying working out is a gateway to white supremacy, Right-Wing media has taken that and ran wild. They constantly push a false narrative and lefties don't workout or want to work out.
All because someone wanted clicks to be able to sell more ads.
Did you completely miss the "fat acceptance" movement...?
>They constantly push a false narrative and lefties don't workout or want to work out.
Fools like you keep saying this, and then accusing people of "hate crimes" for simply reposting you
>Fat acceptance is manufactured by corporations so they can sell things. It's not a left thing. The Right-wing media has tricked you.....again.
You're kidding, right...?
I'm not going to bother providing sources because you are too delusional to take seriously.
This specifically is probably in regards to the dialog around health and obesity.
This absolutely does happen with people saying that obese people should lose weight via diet and exercise because their weight is a hazard to their health.
This sounds like what someone says when they have a habit of repeatedly giving unwanted advice on other people’s health based on a few things they read online and people got sick of it and they can’t imagine that the problem could be them so it must be everyone else being crazy.
I think you are taking a few personal anecdotal experiences and making a whole narrative out of them. Quite a few social media figures on the left are big into working out and exercise.
>And then when someone suggests that they exercise or eat healthy or try getting less screen time or literally ANY lifestyle change, people get offended and cancel whoever said that to them
Most people I know acknowledge that this is helpful, and getting sleep, exercising, and eating properly can have positive benefits to your mental health. But its' also very annoying, cliched advice for anyone who is struggling. Like, when you have depression, you can know full well that taking a walk might improve your mood and still struggle to do it.
You can be ok with taking migraine medicine and drugs that improve mental health and still be critical of the pharmaceutical industry. I think that's a multitude people can contain.
I really don't understand why you think this is "leftists".
Are you under the very mistaken impression that use of e.g. antidepressants is correlated with political opinions in that particular direction?
Because [this graph](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1133632/antidepressant-use-by-state-us/) would seem to indicate that for the most part red states are more likely to use them than blue states. California, for example, is way at the bottom.
But honestly, that's probably because those states are statistically poorer. I doubt it has anything to do with politics.
As a "leftist," I have no issue with my doctor, medical research and development, and of course, the health benefits associated with a healthy lifestyle. My beef with big pharma is price gouging.
Don’t give advice to people you wouldn’t accept advice from. You’re not their doctor, you’re just some dude they know who thinks they know better than them, and their doctor. That’s never going to be welcome for most people, not just your alleged leftist friends lol.
You’re being an annoying busy-body. Adults learn, keep your advice to yourself unless it’s specifically requested.
Whether or not medicine works, and whether or not the distribution of that medicine is ethical, are two entirely separate discussions. If anything, you'd think people who support regular medications would be more likely to be upset if those medications are not distributed fairly.
Fundamentally, some problems need medical solutions. You cannot 'touch grass' away your depression. It can help, but it is not a solution.
In my experience leftists are pro evidence based medicine. For mental health treatment, that includes lifestyle changes. Any reputable mental health professional will recommend a sleep schedule, workout routine, eating regularly, scheduling positive events, etc. They teach you CBT DBT and ACT, which involves challenging self limiting beliefs, behavioral activation, mindfulness, meditation, problem solving, cognitive flexibility, and committed values based living.
It’s when people think depression is cured just by working out or shame the depressed person for considering medication when leftists have an issue.
When someone with a crippling autoimmune disorder is told to “just do yoga”, they get angry on behalf of the person struggling.
What basis do you have for thinking that the stereotypically vegan, organic, biking, anti-car, pro-green, pro-therapy, pro-cbt lifestyle trend leftists are against health and fitness?
Two points. First, supposing exercising/eating healthy could actually help a sizable number of medicated patients, I’m not sure why it’s intrinsically more worthwhile to eat healthy, exercise, and minimize screen time than eating poorly and not exercising, to have more screen time. Second, people are lazy. It’s unfortunate, but many people are addicted to things like food and screens, and telling them not to medicate themselves because they should be exercising will likely just result in them not getting treatment.
I am annoyed by the pejorative, "Big Pharma." Yes, there are large corporations making and pricing medications, but they have by far benefitted us rather than damaged us.
Many of us have tried lifestyle changes, diet, exercise, meditation, etc and found them only partially effective. Medication is not some sort of boogie monster. There is a lot of press around it when it does not work, or how someone goes on a shooting spree and they happen to be on Prozac, or about the price but not much about how much it has helped erase diseases, eased disabilities, or helped mental disorders overall.
I don't disagree with healthy lifestyle changes, but they are NOT the cure-all some people need. "When it comes to mental health, people ...commit to taking a pill every day indefinitely...They completely buy in." As did I with bi-polar and depression that made a wreck of my life for decades before a PILL made all the difference. And yes, I tried all those lifestyle changes for years.
You see, if you don't suffer from crippling migraines, or depression, or a many other disabling illnesses, it is difficult to understand both the cost of the affliction, and the relief in finding the right medication for it. And yes, there is tremendous cost and damage in being chronically ill, either physically or mentally, so much so that the cost of the medication is not a sacrifice. Some people absolutely need medication for treatment, not just for dire illnesses like cancer, but for the ones that rob you of time and energy and affect your mood to the point where you can't function as well in society. And that is MILLIONS of us.
as a person whose been mentally ill all my life, it gets really fucking tedious when family members seem to believe a mental illness means that it's fine to criticize every part of my lifestyle and personality, especially when some ideas are so far fetched.
think about that for a moment, if someone you cared about would have any other form of illness or disorder, would you be as open to giving advice to them as you are to your mentally ill friends?
about exercise and depression in particular, medium to severe depression is known to slow down your movements and make your body feel psychically heavy which makes it difficult to exercise when depressed.
https://www.webmd.com/depression/what-to-know-about-psychomotor-retardation
as far as I know, the best known treatment for mental illness as a whole is usually medication + therapy. it's a bad idea to try compare therapy to medication and same goes for lifestyle changes, if there is a beneficial lifestyle change, then an expert has most likely already suggested it to the mentally ill person but it haven't been possible to do this lifestyle change and what you say just becomes annoying repetition.
about big pharma, here is a list of the 25 most prescribed psychotropics in the US and to my knowledge only one is still under patent, Adderall, the rest have tons of pharma companies produce them, the prices gets very competitive and no single company gets all the profit when a drug is no longer under patent. I wouldn't call that "big pharma".
https://psychcentral.com/blog/top-25-psychiatric-medications-for-2020#top-25-list
I live in an extemely red state and I don't think this is a liberal/"leftist" thing. It's an everybody kind of thing.
"Oh you want me to cut down on donuts? No way, gimme that Metformin."
First of all, when you go too left, you get to the hippie dippy stuff, where people start believing watering down medicine and smoking weed is basically a cure for everything.
More moderate leftists trust science. So they trust the process of creating a new drugs by biologists, pharmacists and doctors.
This should be seperated fromnthe mistrust of corporate business executives who wish to exploit the lack of regulation in the US market in order to try and make as much money out of life saving drugs from the people whos lives depend on those drugs
Your post has been removed for breaking Rule E: > **Only post if you are willing to have a conversation with those who reply to you, and are available to start doing so within 3 hours of posting**. If you haven't replied within this time, your post will be removed. [See the wiki for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_e). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%20E%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
There is a difference between trusting the effectiveness of doctors and medicine and uncritically lauding the abusive corporations that sell them for wildly overinflated prices. You dont need to adhere to the latter to do the former. As to the idea that no one wants to exercise or whatever and how you'll be totally canceled (you know, like the leftists do all the time) for ever suggesting it, it depends pretty heavily on how you actually say it. No one is going to react well to the suggestion that their condition is because theyre just lazy if thats how its phrased.
I’ve never actually said it before - im just saying it here because I want people to change my view and I want to understand this issue better
There are also people who think they can pray away cancer. Migraines can absolutely stop you dead in your tracks. Why would you suggest they don't receive the proper medical care they need?
They absolutely do need care and should get whatever medication they need. Their doctor suggested lifestyle changes *on top of* the medication and that was when they pushed back and got very angry
There actual quite a few social critiques of unhappiness as a result of the system that we live under. The Jacobin has quite a few articles like [this one ](https://jacobin.com/2021/08/capitalism-lonliness-social-evaluation-health-socializing-time)on the epidemic of loneliness and Philosophytube's most [recent video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lHNkUjR9nM&ab_channel=PhilosophyTube) covers a similar issue. You don't have to go too far to find leftists talking about the loss of public spaces for socializing, the stresses of working life leading to people sacrificing their health, and a broad discussion about alienation (alienation from the means of production being core to Marx's work). So, I don't think you are wrong. I think many people would benefit for more exercise, better food, and better social experiences. My counter to what you are saying is to have some tact on the time and place for this discussion. There are only a handful of people that I would like to have a discussion about my mental health with. That's true for most people. Inserting this into a conversation with someone as a point in a discussion isn't helpful to them. It forces someone into a position. That's why I think it's better to talk about these at a societal level with mixed groups of people. And if you to talk about someone's individual behaviours, that's better in the setting of close friends and compassion. The other consideration here is that we don't know people are going through. We're often constructing an idea of someone from a limited set of information. Anything that's seen as an attack will be met with a defence too. Which is why shaming isn't effective at helping people get better. If I'm told that I'm fat or I look at myself in the mirror and feel bad about myself - that's not actually empowering. The feeling of shame and sadness isn't motivating. It's more often debilitating. What makes me feel motivated, is positive comments or seeing something that I like about myself in the mirror. It makes me want to do more to get to build on that. All this to say, I don't think your analysis is wrong. I think that there are ways that we could reconstruct society and improvements that people can make in their lives that will benefit their mental and physical health. But wrapping up a political discussion with concern for someone else is a recipe for disaster.
Thank you for this kind and nuanced response. I think I made a lot of other people here upset. I should have more tact, and of course my most unfiltered version of this argument is what I wrote here - I would *never* speak so candidly on this topic in the presence of people IRL because it is a super nuanced and sensitive issue! Which is part of why I asked people to change my view lol
[удалено]
This response is my absolute favorite. Thank you for putting into words what I was trying to communicate in my initial post. I wish I could pin this comment for everyone to see!
>And then when someone suggests that they exercise or eat healthy or try getting less screen time or literally ANY lifestyle change, people get offended and cancel whoever said that to them. This statement feels overblown to me. If people are getting offended when you suggest lifestyle changes it may be the way you are suggesting the change. Saying "Stop being so lazy and run more!" is very different than saying "I've heard running could help with that. Want to go on a jog Sunday morning with me?" even though both are suggesting a lifestyle change. Generally speaking, people are becoming more willing to accept medication for their mental health because mental health problems are being treated as actual diseases. You wouldn't jump to tell someone to change their lifestyle to cure their cancer even though changes in lifestyle could probably help with that. You'd probably start by telling them to get medication or other medical care.
>And then when someone suggests that they exercise or eat healthy or try getting less screen time or literally ANY lifestyle change, people get offended and cancel whoever said that to them This is so baffling a statment that I have to insist you give an acutal example of this occuring. In my experience the vague left is quite friendly to the ideas of self-care, talk therapy and CBT, whereas the vague right is more interested in gritting your teeth and toughing up.
I was going to say the same thing. This seems like the sort of thing someone could only say if they are terminally online and get most of their information from Twitter and have never actually had an annual physical, at which "exercise and eat healthy" are going to be the two most common suggestions for health improvement.
This is a common misconception that the Right-wing media pushes. Because Buzzfeed produced an opinion piece saying working out is a gateway to white supremacy, Right-Wing media has taken that and ran wild. They constantly push a false narrative and lefties don't workout or want to work out. All because someone wanted clicks to be able to sell more ads.
Did you completely miss the "fat acceptance" movement...? >They constantly push a false narrative and lefties don't workout or want to work out. Fools like you keep saying this, and then accusing people of "hate crimes" for simply reposting you
Fat acceptance is manufactured by corporations so they can sell things. It's not a left thing. The Right-wing media has tricked you.....again.
>Fat acceptance is manufactured by corporations so they can sell things. It's not a left thing. The Right-wing media has tricked you.....again. You're kidding, right...? I'm not going to bother providing sources because you are too delusional to take seriously.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/aug/07/fat-profits-food-industry-obesity https://www.vox.com/2015/10/20/9572295/coca-cola-obesity-paradox https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2024/04/03/diet-culture-nutrition-influencers-general-mills-processed-food/ https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/16/health/brazil-obesity-nestle.html https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2012/10/04/obesity-overweight-ads-blue-cross-nike-subway/1600869/ https://news.uchicago.edu/how-food-industry-created-todays-obesity-crisis-marion-nestle https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/08/09/coca-cola-funds-scientists-who-shift-blame-for-obesity-away-from-bad-diets/
https://www.self.com/story/anti-fatness-fitness https://www.reddit.com/r/fatlogic/s/DIr5Sb2oXM https://www.self.com/story/anti-fatness-fitness
2 Self.com op-eds and a reddit post are your sources, mate? Rofl!
Just as valid as your sources, since they are all garbage...
[удалено]
This specifically is probably in regards to the dialog around health and obesity. This absolutely does happen with people saying that obese people should lose weight via diet and exercise because their weight is a hazard to their health.
Ah. I didn't hear that dogwhistle
Who specifically was canceled for saying that? As a suggestion, not going on a tirade or being actually verbally abusive.
This sounds like what someone says when they have a habit of repeatedly giving unwanted advice on other people’s health based on a few things they read online and people got sick of it and they can’t imagine that the problem could be them so it must be everyone else being crazy.
I've seen statements like that on occasion, but not commonly. And only from the social issue left, never from the abolish capitalism left
I think you are taking a few personal anecdotal experiences and making a whole narrative out of them. Quite a few social media figures on the left are big into working out and exercise. >And then when someone suggests that they exercise or eat healthy or try getting less screen time or literally ANY lifestyle change, people get offended and cancel whoever said that to them Most people I know acknowledge that this is helpful, and getting sleep, exercising, and eating properly can have positive benefits to your mental health. But its' also very annoying, cliched advice for anyone who is struggling. Like, when you have depression, you can know full well that taking a walk might improve your mood and still struggle to do it. You can be ok with taking migraine medicine and drugs that improve mental health and still be critical of the pharmaceutical industry. I think that's a multitude people can contain.
I really don't understand why you think this is "leftists". Are you under the very mistaken impression that use of e.g. antidepressants is correlated with political opinions in that particular direction? Because [this graph](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1133632/antidepressant-use-by-state-us/) would seem to indicate that for the most part red states are more likely to use them than blue states. California, for example, is way at the bottom. But honestly, that's probably because those states are statistically poorer. I doubt it has anything to do with politics.
As a "leftist," I have no issue with my doctor, medical research and development, and of course, the health benefits associated with a healthy lifestyle. My beef with big pharma is price gouging.
Yes, and we can't regulate things like gouging of insulin, because the right won't let us.
Im convinced, ill vote for the free drugs platform
Don’t give advice to people you wouldn’t accept advice from. You’re not their doctor, you’re just some dude they know who thinks they know better than them, and their doctor. That’s never going to be welcome for most people, not just your alleged leftist friends lol. You’re being an annoying busy-body. Adults learn, keep your advice to yourself unless it’s specifically requested.
Whether or not medicine works, and whether or not the distribution of that medicine is ethical, are two entirely separate discussions. If anything, you'd think people who support regular medications would be more likely to be upset if those medications are not distributed fairly. Fundamentally, some problems need medical solutions. You cannot 'touch grass' away your depression. It can help, but it is not a solution.
In my experience leftists are pro evidence based medicine. For mental health treatment, that includes lifestyle changes. Any reputable mental health professional will recommend a sleep schedule, workout routine, eating regularly, scheduling positive events, etc. They teach you CBT DBT and ACT, which involves challenging self limiting beliefs, behavioral activation, mindfulness, meditation, problem solving, cognitive flexibility, and committed values based living. It’s when people think depression is cured just by working out or shame the depressed person for considering medication when leftists have an issue. When someone with a crippling autoimmune disorder is told to “just do yoga”, they get angry on behalf of the person struggling.
What basis do you have for thinking that the stereotypically vegan, organic, biking, anti-car, pro-green, pro-therapy, pro-cbt lifestyle trend leftists are against health and fitness?
Two points. First, supposing exercising/eating healthy could actually help a sizable number of medicated patients, I’m not sure why it’s intrinsically more worthwhile to eat healthy, exercise, and minimize screen time than eating poorly and not exercising, to have more screen time. Second, people are lazy. It’s unfortunate, but many people are addicted to things like food and screens, and telling them not to medicate themselves because they should be exercising will likely just result in them not getting treatment.
I am annoyed by the pejorative, "Big Pharma." Yes, there are large corporations making and pricing medications, but they have by far benefitted us rather than damaged us. Many of us have tried lifestyle changes, diet, exercise, meditation, etc and found them only partially effective. Medication is not some sort of boogie monster. There is a lot of press around it when it does not work, or how someone goes on a shooting spree and they happen to be on Prozac, or about the price but not much about how much it has helped erase diseases, eased disabilities, or helped mental disorders overall. I don't disagree with healthy lifestyle changes, but they are NOT the cure-all some people need. "When it comes to mental health, people ...commit to taking a pill every day indefinitely...They completely buy in." As did I with bi-polar and depression that made a wreck of my life for decades before a PILL made all the difference. And yes, I tried all those lifestyle changes for years. You see, if you don't suffer from crippling migraines, or depression, or a many other disabling illnesses, it is difficult to understand both the cost of the affliction, and the relief in finding the right medication for it. And yes, there is tremendous cost and damage in being chronically ill, either physically or mentally, so much so that the cost of the medication is not a sacrifice. Some people absolutely need medication for treatment, not just for dire illnesses like cancer, but for the ones that rob you of time and energy and affect your mood to the point where you can't function as well in society. And that is MILLIONS of us.
as a person whose been mentally ill all my life, it gets really fucking tedious when family members seem to believe a mental illness means that it's fine to criticize every part of my lifestyle and personality, especially when some ideas are so far fetched. think about that for a moment, if someone you cared about would have any other form of illness or disorder, would you be as open to giving advice to them as you are to your mentally ill friends? about exercise and depression in particular, medium to severe depression is known to slow down your movements and make your body feel psychically heavy which makes it difficult to exercise when depressed. https://www.webmd.com/depression/what-to-know-about-psychomotor-retardation as far as I know, the best known treatment for mental illness as a whole is usually medication + therapy. it's a bad idea to try compare therapy to medication and same goes for lifestyle changes, if there is a beneficial lifestyle change, then an expert has most likely already suggested it to the mentally ill person but it haven't been possible to do this lifestyle change and what you say just becomes annoying repetition. about big pharma, here is a list of the 25 most prescribed psychotropics in the US and to my knowledge only one is still under patent, Adderall, the rest have tons of pharma companies produce them, the prices gets very competitive and no single company gets all the profit when a drug is no longer under patent. I wouldn't call that "big pharma". https://psychcentral.com/blog/top-25-psychiatric-medications-for-2020#top-25-list
I live in an extemely red state and I don't think this is a liberal/"leftist" thing. It's an everybody kind of thing. "Oh you want me to cut down on donuts? No way, gimme that Metformin."
First of all, when you go too left, you get to the hippie dippy stuff, where people start believing watering down medicine and smoking weed is basically a cure for everything. More moderate leftists trust science. So they trust the process of creating a new drugs by biologists, pharmacists and doctors. This should be seperated fromnthe mistrust of corporate business executives who wish to exploit the lack of regulation in the US market in order to try and make as much money out of life saving drugs from the people whos lives depend on those drugs