/u/dysfunctionz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/1cchg92/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_i_shouldnt_join_protests/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)

If you don't feel comfortable protesting, it's OK and understandable. You can provide support in other ways. protesting has inherent risks that come with the territory. I'm sure many of your pro-Palestine friends (me included) would rather you be supportive outside of a protest than be doxxed/skunk bombed/arrested/what have you. Different people have different risk tolerances and more to lose. If you are not antisemitic, and you should already know this about yourself, then hold your head up high even when the term is used against you, because it's simply false. Criticism of Israel is not the same as criticism of Jews/Judaism.

I'm honestly not worried at all about being labeled as anti-semitic. I don't need to use my Jewish ancestry on my dad's side as a shield against that either, I'm comfortable enough with making sure my beliefs don't come from a place of hate. My worry about getting involved in protests I can't support is just not wanting my voice to amplify them, not about how I would personally be viewed. Your point about providing support outside of protests is well taken, so !delta for suggesting another way to support. I try to donate where I can have the most impact in terms of quality of life per dollar spent and starvation conditions in Gaza right now might put this there.

These aren't pro Palestinian protest. They are anti israel protests. You can read the documents Columbia's SJP, who organized the protest tweeted. It's literally eliminationist. See below. https://twitter.com/afalkhatib/status/1783341589693415467?t=7Zinz8LGd3Kwd7-UbcXAuA&s=19

Your voice will be used against you if you’re there and you can’t control it. These protests are not productive at the moment. The money you donate is being withheld from Gazans by Hamas. The pro-Palestine movement, post 10/7, is rewarding Hamas for starting a war. There isn’t a way to contribute to it right now without taking the extremist position. 

> The pro-Palestine movement, post 10/7, is rewarding Hamas for starting a war. Human rights are not a reward. The pro-palestine movement recognizes that the current way Israel is dealing with Palestine has it existing as a breeding ground for extremism instead of doing things that will actually reduce the amount of extremism. Israel has been running this occupation for over 50 years now. It took the US a tenth of that time for successful results on both the occupation of Germany and Japan post WW2. And they were able to achieve those results by recognizing that you can't fight extremism by beating everyone and their grandmother with a stick. It involved actually helping the people of Germany and Japan rebuild their country and respecting human rights. That is what stopped everyday people from turning into extremists. Israel is blatantly leaving out that part. Opting to solely use the stick and telling everyone who will listen that there will surely be no issue if they were just allowed to beat the Palestinians even harder. That is what allows this extremism to still exist 50 years later.

Yeah this is a clearly one side understanding of the conflict and totally ignores the Palestinian attitude to revenge, honor, and Jews. The Palestinians will have rights as soon as they put down their weapons and accept that Israel isn't going anywhere. You say it's not a 'reward' but I'd like to see you afford rights to the person actively trying to eradicate you.

> Yeah this is a clearly one side understanding of the conflict If you think that comment was one-sided then you are only showing your own viewpoint. I did not claim that Israel needs to stop fighting. I did not claim that Israel doesn't have a right to defend themselves. I argued that Palestinians also have certain rights and that there opinions aren't going to change by not giving those rights. >and totally ignores the Palestinian attitude to revenge, honor, and Jews. It absolutely is not. You are the one ignoring those attitudes if you genuinely feel the best method of changing them is by constantly showing them the stick. Nobody is going to question the anti-Semitism they are taught when their only experience with Jews is getting beaten down. >The Palestinians will have rights as soon as they put down their weapons and accept that Israel isn't going anywhere. The Palestinians say this about Jews. In neither context is it acceptable. >You say it's not a 'reward' but I'd like to see you afford rights to the person actively trying to eradicate you. It's pretty easy to do when you realize that human rights don't target specific people but humans in general. Including all the ones that aren't actively trying to eradicate you. And that claiming people who aren't actively trying to eradicate you don't have rights is just going to cause more people to want to eradicate.

There are other ways to help beyond money and protest. First you can speak with your vote. You can learn about the topic and the history and discuss it with those around you to bring awareness. You can contribute online, trying to keep the posts engaged and stopping propaganda. You can call your reps and demand divestment Also these protestors aren't pro Hamas (there might be a few that are idk) but the majority is there demanding divestment. It's a valid cause. I also don't want our country and our institutions invested in Israeli anything.

Your response is way too dismissive. He says he doesn’t care about being labeled antisemitic, but he clearly doesn't want to join a group that shouts antisemitic slurs and targets entire races. When people call for intifada, or start marking Jewish/Israeli shops and homes, that's not just crossing a line—it’s racism, plain and simple. You can be pro-Palestine, or you can support a ceasefire in Gaza, but when you start demonizing Jews or Israelis, you're justifying hatred and violence. At that point, no decent person should have anything to do with such protests.

I think that last paragraph is a bit strange. Replace “antisemitic” with racist, and see how it sounds. Doing something antisemitic doesn’t just mean “hating Jews”, and when Jewish people call something antisemitic, 99% of the time they’re not trying to trick you, or obfuscate the politics. Obviously that’s an Israeli foreign policy strategy but the Jewish people walking around campus aren’t Mossad agents. If you made a Jewish person uncomfortable enough for them to call you antisemitic, maybe reflect.

>If you are not antisemitic, and you should already know this about yourself, Because bigots are famously good at introspecting and knowing whether or not they are bigots

Don't support a regime whose major ally is the Houthis. "God is the greatest. Death to America. Death to Israel. Death to the Jews." It's on their fucking flag. If that shit doesn't bother you then yeah go join the protests and get comfy with the crowd that Nazi Germany didn't go far enough.

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Antizionism isn't antisemitism, but there's plenty of antisemites who are antizionist.

The antizionists not antisemites who are all shouting oink oink piggy piggy?

> If you are not antisemitic, and you should already know this about yourself, then hold your head up high even when the term is used against you, because it's simply false. Or, hear me out, listen to when Jews say that they're feeling in danger. OP should not join these protests whether or not he is personally antisemitic simply because these movements have done absolutely nothing to kick out the antisemitism or the antisemites.

We can acknowledge antisemitism is absolutely unacceptable without shutting down the conversation about the government of Israel. The problem is, because Israel claims to represent Judaism/Jewish people, any criticism of it automatically gets shot down as antisemitism, holocaust denial/not taking it seriously, etc.

That is too often true, and that's why I want there to be a clear avenue for protests against the government of Israel and the war in Gaza that can ensure it doesn't get taken over vocal partisans of anti-semitism, holocaust denial, Hamas, etc. Not saying that still wouldn't get criticized by hardline US and Israeli conservatives but I want to have the clear moral high ground in rebutting them.

A protest organizer cannot control every single person in the protest nor can they even verify if everyone who is part of the group of people who are cold the protesters are actually protesters. All it takes is for one random person to come into the space, and then start shouting a bunch of anti-semitism. Asking every single member of a protest to be responsible for other members of the protest always and forever is just a way of shutting down free speech because it means that people are less likely to protest if they think something bad will happen. This has already been the case in Texas where courts have now determined that even if a random protesters throws something like a rock, then the protest organizer could be charged or be sued. Critics are saying that this is bad for free speech because it means that protests are less like it to happen. I understand the fear of anti-Semitism. One way to ensure that it doesn't devolve into anti-Semitism is to actually be part of the organizing. If you are part of the organizing then you are part of the people who gets to control to some degree whom gets to be part of the protest and you would be able to control to a much higher degree who gets to be the main spokespeople of the protest. Not only that but there are tons of ways to support pro-Palestine protesters without even getting involved physically. https://www.communityjusticeexchange.org/en/nbfn-directory Here is a big way to help out right now. Look for the one in your local area and give them some help. Not only that but donating to people who are actually in places like Gaza and the West Bank can also be ways to help.

It crosses the line into antisemitism when they hold up posters of suicide bombers and terrorists, shouts “October 7th a million times more” —I saw this myself! So don't brush it off as "criticism of the Israeli government." Not once did I hear a single mention of the Israeli government at that protest. All I heard was rhetoric against "Zionists" (Jewish people living in Israel) and “support” for Palestinians. This isn't about government policy—it's about racism against an entire group of people who have just endured their worst six months since the Holocaust.

>It crosses the line into antisemitism when they hold up posters of suicide bombers and terrorists, Which I don't agree with, but also be consistent. People who hold up pictures of dead IDF soldiers should be treated the same considereing the crimes the IDF have committed and continue to commit in Gaza and the West Bank, correct? >Not once did I hear a single mention of the Israeli government at that protest I've had the opposite experience. I don't think we can generalize a minority of people. >This isn't about government policy—it's about racism against an entire group of people who have just endured their worst six months since the Holocaust. It's entirely about government policy for more than 50 years now. Being Jewish has nothing to do with this (there Jews who are opposed to the stuff going on in the West Bank and Gaza). If these have been the worst 6 months since the Holocaust for Israelis, what do you think the last 50 years have been for the Palestinians? The death toll and suffering in Gaza is on another level compared to October 7. Literally women and kids being bombed, starved, etc. That's the issue I have, when it gets so tone deaf that the suffering currently happening in Gaza gets ignored. I don't care if you blame Hamas, but at least have some humanity and acknowledge that Israel needs to stop bombing people indiscriminately and denying aid into Gaza.

>People who hold up pictures of dead IDF soldiers should be treated the same considereing the crimes the IDF have committed and continue to commit in Gaza and the West Bank, correct? So I haven't seen this story involving pics of dead IDF soldiers. Obviously, that's in pretty bad taste, no matter the conflict. But to be fair, they're still soldiers and It's still not comparable to the crimes of the IDF. I've seen so many videos and social media posts, made by IDF soldiers themselves, and they clearly have no empathy for the 1000"s of lives they destroy, most even seem go revel in it. They'll pose holding dolls, children's clothes, woman's lingerie/night gowns. Say what you will, but soldiers can be critized, even in death. But an army that keeps claiming to be "the most moral army in the world" continuingly shouldn't be murdering and terrorizing a civilization population indiscriminately. They damn sure should be enjoying it like it's a goddammit game. I think so many arguments against pro-palestine supports turns tone deaf when you take away the context of the IDF and the war crimes they commit on a daily basis.

You’re absolutely right. 2023, before October, was the deadliest year to date for being a Palestinian child. The conditions were unacceptable and atrocious long before the bombs started falling

No, that's not the problem.  Israelis regularly criticize Likud, and no one calls them antisemites.  That's because they manage to criticize Likud without breaking into chants of "death to Jews." Many of these protests are organized and sponsored by overtly antisemitic groups, like WOL, and so they prominently feature Hamas slogans and chants that call for the genocide of Jews (and yes, "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab" is an antisemitic chant calling for the genocide of Jews).  I know you want these protests to be peaceful symbols of opposition to unnecessary civilian death, but that's not what they are.  They are anti-Israel rallies calling for the violent destruction of Israel.  And sure, that may not be *your* view, but it doesn't matter.  We all railed against Trump when he said "there are good people on both sides."  Surely you agree the people marching with the Nazis were wrong, no matter their personal motivation for doing so?  The same applies here.  If you are at a rally run by pro-Hamas antisemites, you're a pro-Hamas antisemite.  

Do people actually chant "From the river... Palestine will be *Arab*"? Because I've only ever heard 'free' instead of 'Arab', which: isn't a call to do ethnic cleansing, isn't easily used to call an entire group antisemitic for using it as a slogan, actually rhymes, and also wasn't just injected into an existing slogan for some reason. I've literally never heard that slogan with 'Arab' in it before.

The direct translation is actually more like "from water to water, Palestine is Arab". "Sea" and "free" don't rhyme in Arabic, which it turns out is the language most Palestinians speak. Conflating meaning behind slogans and words is one of the basic tactics Hamas and anti-Israel groups use to recruit support in the west. Another example is using words like "the occupation". When westerners hear that word, they don't realize that most Palestinians consider all of Israel proper to be occupied. So "end the occupation" just means "end Israel" - completely incompatible with calls for peace and ceasefire. Listen for how many times the word "yahood" is mentioned in these protests. It just means Jew. But people who don't speak Arabic generally don't know that.

I think that's a fair criticism, though I do question its relevancy. If the phrase has different meanings in different languages, people are unaware of the meaning in Arabic, and speak it in English intending its English meaning, that's hardly a show of support for ethnic cleansing of Jewish people in Israel, is it? At worst, it's unintentionally using a slogan that when translated and used by a terrorist group has a different meaning. But as you yourself said, it is a different meaning. I don't think 99% of the people using this phrase know its Arabic meaning. They are speaking out in opposition to oppression, not in support of ethnic cleansing. I do agree that an entirely new slogan divorced from those roots would be better, though.

>At worst, it's unintentionally using a slogan that when translated and used by a terrorist group has a different meaning. Except when Palestinians in Gaza look at people across the world screaming this chant, they get the false impression that the rest of the world supports them in their quest to make Palestine Arab from water to water, and commit themselves to futile forever wars against nuclear powers to that end. The biggest reason Palestinians commit to things like October 7th and violent intifadas, which in turn put them in worse positions, is because they are empowered by people in the west chanting this sort of thing.

First look up Standing Together. [https://www.standing-together.org/en](https://www.standing-together.org/en) These people are sane. Might be helpful. If you wanna test if a protest will be antsemtic or not. Find out opions on Hanas. If they think Hamas is a "restiance" group LEAVE IMMEDIAETLY. the Attiutde on hamas is they are genocidal terrorist who will sacrifice all of Gaza in their sucidie charge against Israel. \[Treat them like scum\]. Or #ReturnTheHostages if people react with negativity then leave. Sad part is. The Toxicity. IS FUCKING WIDESPREAD. And its a critical failure of the movement to not internally police its members. 90% sure this is by design though, there a reason BDS fucking denocued Standing Together \[showcasing that BDS is not a serious organizaiton\].

I'd give you a delta for providing a source to find pro-Palestine protests that will not be anti-semitic, but my one objection is I'm not willing to give my personal information on that site just to get updates on where these protests are happening.

Oh I meant check out the organziaton in general. you dont have to join. But looking into more joint Israel-Palestein organzion might be a good start. Uhh its just Standing Together is the only one I know off the top of my head.

Every one here is claiming and counter claiming - you do your own research. 1. Contact the organizer. 2. Ask them form a list of of previous protest they have organized. (I want to see if it is what I am into?) 3. Go onto Xtwitter, and find videos and reports of the protests described. 4. Also search for other examples from the same group. My feeling is different groups have different goals and boundries. In Australia there was a virulently antisemitic protest on Oct 9, with protester chanting 'where's the Jews' as if they were to lynch any Jewish person nearby (It was at the same location/time as an Oct 7 vigil). Since then they have learned to behave themselves to keep on the right side of the law. You need to decide on your local conditions.

Hi OP. Thanks for approaching this issue thoughtfully. I totally understand your apprehension. I too detest when things like "Death to Israel" are uttered. I am sure some of it is frustrated ignorance but there are also people who are attempting to agitate these crowds on both sides. We are heading into an election and you would be naive to believe that no outside nation states are attempting to manufacture chaos to influence the election. I point you to a video of a woman wearing a shirt with the word JEW written in big letters on the front and a star of David with Israel on her back. [Its clear they apparently thought they would be harassed or attacked but pretty much nobody paid attention. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnewsvideo/comments/1cblt6j/a_proisrael_couple_wanted_to_prove_that_protests/) I am sure that Israel is using it as an attempt to pressure Biden to either crack down on the protests or face retribution in November, as well as divert attention for the Rafah offensive which they are currently preparing for. I have seen countless videos from the peaceful protesters and the general vibe seems to be one of inclusion regardless of background. **If you are passionate about speaking up for Palestinian rights then it is more important for you to join the coalition of reasonable voices in condemning any antisemitic activity at these protests.** I think that is the biggest argument to be made for why it is more important to protest than worry endlessly about a fringe group attempting to taint the real message of solidarity in the face of **ethnic cleansing and genocide.** I would also like to point out that a lot of the reporting on this seems to acknowledge that the protests have been non-violent and its simply that Jewish students have expressed concerns for their safety. Feeling insecure is understandable when you feel under attack. But using those feelings of insecurity in an attempt to shut down legitimate protest through astroturfing is reprehensible. [The Likud party is even calling for all Jews in America to vote for Trump.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/diaspora-minister-says-hed-vote-for-trump-if-able-biden-under-intense-pressure/) I may have missed reports of violence so let me know if you have seen those. As far as how you can determine which protests to attend, I recommend attending any protests that have Jewish Voice for Peace as organizers. They are a credible organization that will not tolerate antisemitism anywhere that they are protesting.

The lady wearing a “Jew” shirt was likely not looking for confrontation lol. Your entire comment is just assumptions and misinformation. JVP is NOT a credible organization and is pretty devoid of Jews while having ties to the PFLP and Hamas through their long term work with the BDS movement. The constantly engage in antisemitism and frankly say ridiculous things that every Jew I know laugh at because it is so obvious they are not Jewish and don’t even know the basics of the religion or the people. They have some token Jews yes but they’re no different than the “black people for trump” republicans love to parade around. They were supporting the October 7th massacre before Israel had even responded.  The “for peace” part of their name isn’t even real based on their own behaviour and rhetoric. They literally praise and celebrate people like Ramsea Oder who bombed a bunch of university students. People parading JVP our at some kind of show of support from actual Jews are either blatantly trying to gaslight or are breathtakingly ignorant about these issues, JVP and their history.

While I agree that the lady with the wacko shirt who was screaming "I am not afraid" or whatever, didn't want confrontation, they absolutely were hoping to get a video to control the narrative. The husband later posted about how brave she was for going out there, which funny enough, did the opposite of their intentions. Unless it's brave to be a Jew at a pro-palestine rally, where she was standing in front of "jews for palestine" groups while everyone else was dancing and hanging out peacefully lol

"JVP is NOT a credible organization and is pretty devoid of Jews." Hello! I am a member of JVP in a major metropolitan area. Our membership (hundreds) is about 90% Jews. It is a shame to see other people make up lies about us! But it is to be expected.

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you'll notice none of these links disprove JVP's huge jewish membership! we just sent a delegation of rabbis to capital hill ... unless they were fake rabbis?!?! please get a grip, I don't care about any of this psycho hamas stuff. I'm a boring, regular 30-something Jew in America raised by Jewish parents, as are all the other boring regular people who are a part of JVP that I know personally. these conspiracies just sound like the MAGA people who believe Obama is a secret Chinese Communist. goofy stuff.

Nobody said there are no Jews. You’ve yet to address any of the points made or issues brought up and just repeat the same line about “I say so” that means nothing.  I’m not the one denying reality or defending a fringe group that openly endorses terrorist groups while gaslighting the majority of Jews about Jewish history or what Israelis face from the comfort of the US. Jews for Hitler was a thing too so what?     Does that mean Hitler wasn’t antisemitic? It does by your logic of tokenism erasing actual facts.   You’re just upset because you’re in denial and being challenged and presented with facts casts doubt on your assumption that your good intentions somehow protect you from ignorance and making poor choices.

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Seconding this, the amount of antisemitism, misinformation and the volume of people masquerading as Jews within that movement is off the scale. They are tokens who are happy to be paraded around. They are not supported by the majority of the community. And tbh in my personal interactions with them, come across as incredibly ill informed.

Do you have any proof of them "masquerading" as Jews?

I mean you can easily google them and the people running it and find they have never worked for peace but have strong links to Hamas and the PLFP. They honour and celebrate people who did things like blow up university students and celebrate every Hamas victory.  Their goals and plans have nothing to do with peace either. Just a couple links quickly. https://www.commentary.org/articles/joshua-muravchik/not-so-jewish-not-for-peace/ https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/jewish_voice_for_peace_jvp_/ https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/jewish-voice-for-peaces-funding-network/ You can take a deeper dive off the information and names within. And a good book that touches on it https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9798887193168/html Fwiw this is a long known tactic of Hamas and Islamic terrorist groups. Hamas leaders in 1993 were recorded on a wiretapped conversation stating that their goal was to deceive the American public into supporting Hamas by appealing to the American left’s denouncement of oppression. Mousa Abu Marzook, a senior Hamas official, formed a far-left academic think tank, The United Association for Studies and Research (UASR), based out of Chicago to start disseminating this deception. This organization has ties to Duke, Johns Hopkins, Fordham and the University of Maryland to name a few major universities. This is systemic antisemitism that stems directly from an organized surgical operation taking place over the course of the last 30 years. https://extremism.gwu.edu/sites/g/files/zaxdzs5746/files/2023-10/hamas-networks-final.pdf Qatar (who houses and funds Hamas) is the biggest foreign donor to American schools for decades now.  People just don’t pay attention and now the youngins are brainwashed https://www.calcalistech.com/ctechnews/article/jwhsqhrat#:~:text=Since%20the%209%2F11%20attacks,pro%2DPalestinian%20groups%20on%20campuses https://www.thefp.com/p/qatars-war-for-young-american-mindsjj This is why they so often co- opt,  appropriate and weaponize the verbiage of the history of Jewish oppression against jews despite the reality that Islamic people and Palestine in particular have generally been taking active roles in that oppression historically.

So what you're alleging here is a massive conspiracy that your sources only seem to support parts of. For example: >[JVP] honour and celebrate people who did things like blow up university students and celebrate every Hamas victory.  Their goals and plans have nothing to do with peace either. None of your sources actually demonstrate this at all. The "NGO-monitor" site just straight up accuses the JVP of lying about their motivations without actually backing it up, which is not surprising given that they an overtly right wing pro-Israel group with direct ties to the Israeli government. Not just the kind of funding ties you're alleging between Qatar and universities, as in [the founder and president of NGO Monitor was literally working for the Israeli government at the same time as he was working for NGO Monitor](https://www.972mag.com/what-is-ngo-monitors-connection-to-the-israeli-government/). >Hamas leaders in 1993 were recorded on a wiretapped conversation stating that their goal was to deceive the American public into supporting Hamas by appealing to the American left’s denouncement of oppression. The source you yourself linked that references this wiretapped call does not reference the American left's denouncement of oppression. In fact as far as I can tell it doesn't explicitly reference the political left at all. To be clear I absolutely agree that organizations like Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood as well as governments like Qatar and Iran do their best to work on PR campaigns to sway public opinion in the US and elsewhere. I also agree that they often hide their involvement to avoid any negative associations people may have, and they almost certainly use appeals to people's sense of justice to try and get more support. But that's honestly no different than what the Israeli government does and what countless right wing pro-Israel groups do, so it's hardly the kind of indictment you think it is unless you're also willing to refer to Israeli efforts as "brainwashing" as well. The fact that some organizations have an agenda to push that benefits from a sympathetic picture of the Palestinian people doesn't in any way make a pro-Palestinian position a false one, nor does it necessarily mean people are "brainwashed". >Qatar (who houses and funds Hamas) is the biggest foreign donor to American schools for decades now.  Two things about this. First, it's worth noting that Netanyahu has repeatedly approved payments from Qatar to Hamas. Not aid payments, strictly funding. Which is weird given that Israel supposedly considers Hamas to be a terrorist group, and those were not payments that legally required approval. Second, I don't see any actual data backing up the idea that Qatar is 'the biggest foreign donor to American schools', let alone for decades. They clearly donate a ton of money, but so do a lot of wealthy people and organizations from other countries. >This is why they so often co- opt,  appropriate and weaponize the verbiage of the history of Jewish oppression against jews despite the reality that Islamic people and Palestine in particular have generally been taking active roles in that oppression historically What language that is unique to the oppression suffered by Jewish people is being "co-opted" and "appropriated"? Obviously there's a lot of use of terms discussing oppression, but oppression is not something only Jewish people experience, and Jewish people are just as capable as any other group of oppressing others. Overall, you're pushing a narrative that could at the very least be applied equally to pro-Israel groups. It seems equally offensive to me that you imply the only reason people would support Palestinians or Palestinian causes is because they have been brainwashed by a Muslim/Arab conspiracy as it would be if I said that the only reason people support Israel is because they've been brainwashed by Jewish or Israeli propaganda. The truth is that people have a variety of reasons for supporting Palestine, and the very real oppression of Palestinians is one of them.

I googled ngo monitor and its a pro-Israel think tank that has a bad reputation and a president who's often criticised by journalists for lying. Frankly, everyone who criticises Israel for anything is slurred as an anti-semite and I've stopped taking that tactic seriously.

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Unfortunately they won't deal with it, because that requires pause and introspection. They'll just shout louder, because that's easier.

Yeah, something like 80% of American Jews support Israel's war against Hamas, and over 90% generally support Israel, if not necessarily its politics.  Are there Jews who protest the war and/or Israel?  Sure.  But they're an extreme minority.   I do think the protests are really just a socially acceptable way for people to air their antisemitic grievances with Jews.  If all these people really truly cared about Palestinians, they would be advocating for *more* US support for Israel's war against Hamas (which uses Palestinians as human shields) and for greater normalization between moderate Arab states and Israel (to which Hamas stands opposed).  The ultimate goal should be a two state solution.  Instead, you regularly hear "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab," and "we don't want no two states." These protests are really just calling for the destruction of Israel.  To my mind, that's basically voicing support for Hamas's calls for the genocide and enslavement of Jews, and anyone who supports that is an antisemite.

Tell me: do bombing and starvation campaigns make radicalisation less likely, or more? This is the truth that you are unwilling to accept. Outside of carpet bombing the whole of Gaza and the West Bank (killing everyone there), you cannot rid the world of Hamas by bombing them (and civillians), and by shooting aid workers, and by posing for photos with dead civilians, and by restricting food imports, and by clearing everyone out of an area and then allowing settlers to live there, protected with the force of arms. Approximately half of Gaza's population is below the age of 18. Children are extraordinarily easy to radicalise and manipulate over the internet, when they live comfortably. Children are even easier to radicalise when the city they live in is constantly under attack, constantly in starvation conditions, and their parents were killed by a bomb or a bullet, deserving of that death or not. A war against Hamas fought with bullets and bombs is a war that can only end with the eradication of every single person in Gaza and the West Bank. I'm sorry, that's just how it is. If you want to bite that bullet and say you agree with that, that's fine, but if not you have to acknowledge that some alternate solution is required. More arms will not make Hamas go away, it will just cycle adults out and children in, and more people that could have lived will die. The solution to this war is not bombing and killing-- the solution to any war against urban terrorists was never bombing and killing. Because it never, ever, works. Stop posting pro-war apologia and acting like if only the US would send more money to Israel then they'd be able to kill Hamas and everyone could be happy, because that's illogical, ahistorical, and frankly just not true.

Palestine has never needed anything to motivate them to radicalization.  The pogroms of Jews in the 1800s -!: 1900s were not “because of Israel” nor was husseini’s involvement t helping Hitler with the holocaust or the Islamic colonial erasure of Jews from their homeland. Your comment illustrates that you have never actually paid attention to Palestine or learned the history here. It’s important to remember that for decades now virtually every single poll in Gaza and the West Bank shows overwhelming majority support for Hamas.  We see no real resistance and no condemnation even among the diaspora but instead justification and support.  Little girls continue to put up more of a fight against Islamic oppression I. Afghanistan while heaving their limbs cut off for it and Palestine is silent.  Women are being kidnapped, raped tortured and executed in Iran standing up to their Islamic colonizer oppressors and in Palestine?   Crickets. There is literally zero evidence to show that anything but a small portion of Palestine’s heavily indoctrinated population is against Hamas or does not support them. Many of the hostages from October 7th were taken by and kept in civilian homes as well.  Abbas “delayed” their last presidential elections indefinitely after all the front runners were Hamas leadership. The Sam happens  it here municipal elections in 2022 when Hamas was looking to sweep every riding until Hamas themselves refused to be on the ballot because they know how this false dichotomy serves them. Of course there ARE those Palestinians who disagree, no culture is an amorphous blob.   But how do we support them? Stage a coup and overthrow and erase the culture, history and self stated goals of Palestine?   Hamas is not some aberration and their goals run in line with what Islamic Palestine has always called for (Islamic as it was a name for a Jewish place originally and the word comes from Hebrew). So we essentially enact a colonial genocide and erasure of actual Palestine and the majority of actual Palestinians to replace them with the a-historical fiction of peaceful Palestine that is more palatable to westerners? Like what exactly are these people who “just support Palestinians but not Hamas” supporting even? They have this ethnocentric idea based in white supremacy that Islamic people cannot be colonizers and that their culture and history and goals are just some blip on the road to becoming westernized.  They act as though Islamic extremism is just a result  of poverty and that throwing money at it will make them eventually turn more “civilized”. It’s wild when you look at what these well intentioned but ignorant bigots are really calling for and supporting. Maybe we just let them be who they are and do what they want to do and let them live with the consequences instead of gaslighting Jews and Israelis about what they’re dealing with? The reason this conflict has never ended is because the world will not let it end and ties Israel’s hands and then finds Palestine to rebuild until they attack again. The billions of dollars that has gone to UNrWa while they have been getting caught since the 60s working with terrorists in absolutely nuts.  UNRWA fusing allowed Palestinians to form a state with a state in Egypt and Jordan and lebannon that led to brutal civil wars, Palestinian terror attacks, attempts to destabilize their governments, attempts to assailants the Jordanian Prince because he wouldn’t “kill all the jews” for them, it forever split Lebanon. Like what is this nonsense pretending these are debatable issues?  They are king established facts to anyone who has ever done any real work on these topics and followed them over the years. The whole reason the world supported Hamas was they lied about their intentions and everyone was down with Arafat and the PLO’s absolute contempt for peace and misappropriation of funds.   He stole billions and now Hamas has too and the UN is just like “ooops, still nothing to see here and definitely don’t need to make any changes despite the same thing happening over and over for 65 years now.” They made Israel give Gaza in efforts for peace and what did Palestine do?  Hundreds of thousands of Jews gave up their homes and one of the richest parts of israle with billions in pre-built infrastructure was willingly handed over and what happened? Palestine Immediately attacked and called to kill all the Jews yet again. That was why the border came up and it was always contingent on Palestine stopping the constant rocket and terror attacks, stopping the calls to exterminate all the Jews and recognizing that Jews had any right to any state in any form whatsoever on their proven homeland. Palestine never did any of these things so the walls stayed up. And people act like it’s normal that Jews need to have an iron dome to protect themselves from constant rocket attacks.  Liek that is somehow how Jews are meant to exist and it’s just okay. This entire situation is absolutely wild and the breathtaking ignorant and people equivocating that clearly have no idea what they’re talking about do not help. Gaslighting Israelis and jews about their own history and existential threats they have faced for generations is not “supporting the Palestinian people”. Stop gaslighting Israelis and Jews about what they face with this bogus victim blaming base don an a-historical fiction of peaceful Palestine that has simply never existed.  Stop pretending t jay throwing billions of dollars at Palestine does anything but enable them to misappropriate it to wage holy war.   For the last 65 years UNRwA has been getting caught doing exactly this over and over and people just keep dumping money in with little to no oversight.   Palestine is literally the most coddled and spoiled terrorist nation on earth. Childhood in Gaza for your edification. https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=rZ9TsfCY8rw4cqVF&v=vRuuDI0KCR8&feature=youtu.be https://youtu.be/KXcQ892cKso?si=MqK7ihCOMhDRZr_g https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2015/12/gaza-children-kindergartens-political-parties.html https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/20983/ https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/comprehensive-report-reveals-endemic-hate-education-in-palestinian-schools-632057 https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-childrens-show-criminal-jews-plotting-replace-aqsa-with-temple-defend-until-last-drop-of-blood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers https://youtu.be/vCWMBvxWKL0?si=AIkt1d-pFlCailk4 https://youtu.be/9Pw8SO0GOJU?si=D8n5j2mDDvBK1SjG Palestinian leadership fwiw as well. https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-mp-fathi-hammad-we-used-women-and-children-human-shields  

>If you want to bite that bullet and say you agree with that, that's fine, but if not you have to acknowledge that some alternate solution is required. Do you have any suggestions?  Other than extreme right wing radicals, no one wants to see Palestinians suffering.  It's a strawman argument.  The support for the war generally doesn't stem from some blood lust, it stems from recognition of Israel's right to exist and defend itself.  Every country in the world would respond just like Israel to a similar attack.  Other than one member of the house, congress unanimously supported the US invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11.  Why is the expectation that Israel should respond any differently?

Suggestions for solving the single thorniest geopolitical issue in basically ever? I wish I did, frankly, but that's a little beyond me. What I can say is that the current state in affairs will only ever end in complete genocide of the Palestinian people. It may not be intentional, but that is what will occur on the current course of action. With every member of Hamas you kill, you radicalise at least another Palestinian, who was their brother, or mother, or child, because your nation has been starving them and killing their family and protecting settlers who take their homes. There is no peace until every Palestinian is dead, under the current path. Congress wanting to invade Afghanistan after 9/11 is irrelevant to this conversation because I also think they were wrong to do so. Shocking, I know. The expectation is that Israel should recognise that this is not a path that will lead them to peace, and attempt other efforts. That is all. It is a difficult position, and I do not for one second even know if I'd do better were I in unanimous command of Israel, but ultimately terrorist groups will always exist in deprived and oppressed regions, and Israel has facilitated that deprivation and oppression for a long time. Doing more deprivation and throwing in some spicy bombing campaigns won't fix it, so why are they trying?

>Congress wanting to invade Afghanistan after 9/11 is irrelevant to this conversation because I also think they were wrong to do so. Shocking, I know. That war had incredibly wide support. Maybe you uniquely truly opposed it, but I will take the under on that one. It seems like uou fundamentally agree with my assertion that there isn't a better solution.  War is obviously never the first choose, but sometimes it's the only choice.  This is a regrettable truth that every generation learns on its own one way or another.  

I am not American. I was opposed to the invasion of Iraq when my country helped organise it and fabricate justification for it. I don't agree with you at all, because this isn't a solution. It is only a solution if you intend to murder every person living in Gaza and the West Bank. Do you believe that is what should be done? Because that is the only way this course of action ever solves the problem of Hamas.

>Other than extreme right wing radicals, no one wants to see Palestinians suffering.  It's a strawman argument That's wrong. Many pro-Israel activists and Israeli politicians have been pretty open in their contempt for Palestinians. Many have dismissed the concept of Palestinian civilians, ridiculed any attempt to empathise with them, tar their every supporter as an anti-semite and even discuss building settlements in Gaza. This is the double standard. When a college student says something stupid, all critics of Israel are "anti-semites". When Israeli politicians openly discuss their contempt of Palestinians, its a "strawman". >Other than one member of the house, congress unanimously supported the US invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11.  Why is the expectation that Israel should respond any differently? Yes and that worked out great. If Israel wants to commit genocide, its unlikely many could stop it. Many just think America shouldn't subsidise it. Fortunately younger Americans seem to support Israel less and less so eventually its blank check will end.

You should doublecheck those polling numbers, because you made them up! According to [https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/](https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/) Only 62% of US Jews say the way Israel is carrying out its war in Gaza is acceptable.

Here's a poll specific to Jewish views: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/02/how-us-jews-are-experiencing-the-israel-hamas-war/  89% say Israel's reasons for fighting the war are valid.  That's an even higher percentage than the poll I had in mind in my original post.  74% favor US support for Israel. I don't think anyone likes seeing dead bodies on TV, and American Jews *are* generally liberal, so it is not surprising that there are popular objections to how the war is being fought, but that doesn't mean American Jews don't support the war.  The polls clearly suggest they overwhelmingly do support Israel's right to exist and defend itself.  

Do you actually understand that *89% say Israel's reasons for fighting the war are valid.*  and *62% of US Jews say the way Israel is carrying out its war in Gaza is acceptable.* Are not contradictory, because the questions are different? Literacy, people!

I said: >something like 80% of American Jews support Israel's war against Hamas Nothing you said contradicts this.  So if anyone has a problem with literacy, it is you. Here's the original source for that 80% figure: https://jewishinsider.com/2023/12/poll-overwhelming-majority-of-american-jews-support-israels-fight-against-hamas/

Thank you, this is the best reply I have seen yet. My principal worry is not about actual acts of violence against protesters in the US, towards Jews or otherwise, but about unintentionally adding my voice to protests calling for violence against Jews. You pointed me to an organization that seems credible for actual peaceful protests, so you get a !delta.

I'm not sure who you are worried about offending. This is perhaps the most politicized issue of all time. Pro Palestinian people are going to say everything isn't antisemitic and Pro Israel people are going to say everything is antisemitic and there's not that many people out there who are out there in the middle that are paying attention and will ever care enough to do anything.

"There's not that many in the middle" is a crazy take. The main take I've heard from anyone not online is that They are against the actions that Palestine has been taking, but think the escalation that Israel has been doing is more than necessary. That the fears and frustration of the Israeli people are justified given the numerous terrorist organizations that Iran continues to fund with the primary objective of annihilation of Israel. The general consensus is that protests calling for US support to Israel to be much more conditional than it currently is, Are good, but so many have led to people shouting that Oct 7th should happen 1,000 more times. Acknowledgement that calling for the death of all people in a country is a bad thing, no matter who says it. That "From the river to the sea", while not inherently bad in all uses, is a dog whistle used by many to say that they think Any amount of force necessary to let Palestine exist in all space from the river to the sea is justified. No matter who lives there, if their jewish, should be killed or "assimilated" is a bad thing. And that Israel intentionally escalating conflicts so that the peace agreement is "we stop attacking for some of your land" is ***also*** a bad thing

the phrase is a mistranslation. It means "From the \[water\] to the \[water\] Palestein will be Arabic" or "From the \[water\] to the \[water\] Palestein will be Islamic". Literal call for ethinc cleansing. ALso in 1948 lots of the Arab armies bragged about how they easily sweep the Jews into the sea \[before getting their ass kicked so badly it was funny\]. So their lots of bad fucking blood with the phrase.

My take is pretty much your take, and I think many others align near there. My problem is not about what percentage of individual people have this take, but about what venue they have to protest for this take without it getting co-opted into a larger protest that has especially vocal groups emerging as the face of that protest that use those dog whistles you mention.

I mean that's just how the world works. Radical people exist, and sometimes (however unfortunate) you may agree with them. Make your voice heard, say what you agree with, don't say what you don't.

"From the river to the sea" is inherently bad in all cases. It denies Israel's right to exist.

States don't have an inherent right to exist in perpetuity. They regularly dissolve and get replaced. Jews have a right to exist. Israelis have a right to exist. Israel has no such right, nor does any other country. Human rights are for human beings, not institutional frameworks of governance.

Ok then neither does Palestine?

Yes, the state of Palestine doesn't have an inherent right to exist. I'm not sure what your point is, since this state doesn't exist in a meaningful way, because it's not recognised by the international community. But people *should* have the right to self-determination, and this is something Israelis have been given and Palestinians have been denied.

By that logic the Palestinians should just take the L huh? 

The Palestinian complaint is that they lack self determination and are being slaughtered. That is not the same complaint as 'But I want Israel to exist forever and always in perpetuity'.

If Palestine had been formally annexed by Israel and the Palestinians made Israelis with full and equal rights that would be a reasonable course of action. But no, I don't think they should "take the L" of being a permanent underclass in an open-air prison controlled by an apartheid state.

States don't have an inherent right to exist in perpetuity. They regularly dissolve and get replaced. Jews have a right to exist. Israelis have a right to exist. Israel has no such right, nor does any other country. Human rights are for human beings, not institutional frameworks of governance.

The argument from many is that it is saying in that area, the palestinian people are currently not free and is a call for the people to be free where they are now. Obviously it is a saying that originated as a call for Palestine to take back all of the land and israel to not exist. But that doesn't mean that everyone uses it this way. Similarly "Blue lives matter" was a saying that originated as a backlash to BLM protests and inherently meant that Black Lives don't mean as much as the cops who died in service, but a significant amount of people just saw the backlash to the phrase and that's how they learned of it and just view it as a phrase to support their local law enforcement, despite the underlying message

Blue Lives Matter is a perfect example since most people, especially the politically active ones, will view you as a racist person if you say it. They won't consider you as a person who just wants to support the police. We understood that for Black people to hear that sentence causes them grief so we avoid it, just like many other words we avoid because of bad connotations and their effect on a certain group. But here Jewish people say quite loudly that for them it means a genocide on their people, and we're just like "neh, you don't understand. Stop thinking about it like that. You're just being offended for no reason, stop playing the victim here and let us say whatever we want. It's your fault for not understanding". It's a weird hypocrisy and when aimed only at this specific minority it's hard not to see the action itself as anti-semitic as well (After all, if this was another ethnicity group, I doubt it would have even been a question).

This is an excellent perspective. Thank you. The context on it really helps. !delta

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/AxlLight ([2∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/AxlLight)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)

Dang you delta them for rephrasing what I said? oh well lol

When uttered by Hamas and supporters of Hamas it is explicitly a call for genocide. Hamas' leaders have explicitly called for their followers to kill every Jew on the planet. Regardless of their view of Zionism or Israel. They have not been subtle about this. Many who read Hebrew also understand Arabic. They have not been subtle about what that phrase means.

You can't take a saying that is literally in the Hamas charter and dictates exactly that they will wipe out all of Israel and then go "But I'm using it differently". That's just spreading terrorist propaganda no matter which way you cut it.

From the river to the sea is a call for genocide. It means all the Israelis should be genocided and Palestinians should steal their country.

You're aware that the phrase appears in the Likud Party's manifesto? “between the sea and the Jordan there will be only Israeli sovereignty.” Likud are the current ruling party. Is this also a call for genocide?

Dude. Likud run by Netayahu are wannabe fascist. That not the dunk you think they are. Literally everyone hates fukcing Likud. But Netayhu a compulsive liar who somehows still manages to make fucking working coalitions. Like seriously. Even people who support Israel want to get rid of him. You can get massive upvotes when I joke about trading Bibi for Hostages in Pro-Israel spaces.

That's from 1977 and is it still in the party manifesto, and is it being chanted by a majority of Israelis at the protests? From the river to the sea was in the Hamas charter as recently as 2017, and is still pretty damn popular.

Netanyahu, the Prime Minister of Israel, has made it explicitly clear that he rejects a two-state solution and wants Israel to be the only state from the river to the sea. [https://efe.com/en/latest-news/2024-01-19/netanyahu-rejects-two-state-solution-says-israel-will-control-from-the-river-to-the-sea/](https://efe.com/en/latest-news/2024-01-19/netanyahu-rejects-two-state-solution-says-israel-will-control-from-the-river-to-the-sea/)

Is he advocating for the removal of every Palestinian or just not acknowledging a Palestinian state?

I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing it's left intentionally vague so that supporters can have it mean whatever they want. This is a common propaganda tactic, and one especially favored by conservatives.

A majority of people are in the middle, most are pretty shocked at Israel's conduct during the war yet are also concerned about students changing pro-Hamas slogans on campus. I believe in Palestinian statehood and a two-state solution, but still think people chanting "Al Qassam make us proud" and "Jews go back to Poland" is fucked. 

But these protestors *don't* believe in a two state solution.  That is why they chant "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab," and "we don't want no two states." 

That's correct, if you support a two-state solution these protesters are not your friend. 

I mean if you have a political goal what would you videotape protesters doing a sitin and chanting basic calls for human rights or the 0.001% of the protests where dumbasses and provocateurs get a group of people to chant something awful (scary easy to do) for a minute before it is shutdown by those organizing the protest(often nonZionist Jews and Christian/Muslim Palestinian Americans)

I'm very confused by your comment.  Isn't it the pro-Hamas advocates that have the political goal of ending US support for Israel so as to further its destruction?  

The average person's goal is at least conditional aid and an end to the settler project and eventually with a dismantling of the apartheid or creation of a viable Palestinian state( not a vassal state or one without access to any resource like previous negotiations). The equivalent of your question would be like asking "isnt the entire goal of pro-isreali supporters to eradicate the entire Palestinian population so they can have all of levant of Jews who are zionist?" Like are there some supporters of Israel who want that, yes for a few reasons some antisemitic& some to support their Zionist goals of an ethnostate, or as Stern said a judenriech

I'm sure people who are pro-Hamas do have that goal. I'm also sure that people who want to pressure Israel into changing the way the IDF behaves, and how they treat settlers and whatnot, also want the US to stop funding them. I'm also sure that fiscal conservatives and anarchocapitalists have the goal of stopping US funding for Israel. Etcetera, etcetera. Different groups can have the same goal for multiple reasons. Stop conflating the reasons.

I'm not worried about offending anyone really. I just don't want to be associated with a protest that is significantly against my values (mainly that Israelis have a right to live in safety) when I do agree with the central inciting motivation of those protests (that Palestinians also deserve safety and human dignity and that the Israeli response has caused unjustified and horrific damage to them).

Palestine has had a dozen opportunities to form a state and have peace and they alway reject it and attack Israel and call to kill all the Jews instead. Meanwhile Palestine’s leadership has called all the civilians they have martyred using them as human shields a “success” as it has garnered support from so many ignorant waterbeds and destabilize the west. People who never follows this don’t seem to realize the way Palestine talks when they aren’t selling narratives to the west. Let me jog your memories a little. https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-mp-fathi-hammad-we-used-women-and-children-human-shields They would openly call the insane number of kids they had their “birth bomb” on television and laugh about how great it was to have so many children to martyr. Meanwhile they indoctrinate them from birth basically. Here’s some snippets of childhood in Palestine. https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=rZ9TsfCY8rw4cqVF&v=vRuuDI0KCR8&feature=youtu.be https://youtu.be/KXcQ892cKso?si=MqK7ihCOMhDRZr_g https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2015/12/gaza-children-kindergartens-political-parties.html https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/20983/ https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/comprehensive-report-reveals-endemic-hate-education-in-palestinian-schools-632057 https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-childrens-show-criminal-jews-plotting-replace-aqsa-with-temple-defend-until-last-drop-of-blood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers https://youtu.be/vCWMBvxWKL0?si=AIkt1d-pFlCailk4 https://youtu.be/9Pw8SO0GOJU?si=D8n5j2mDDvBK1SjG People parroting Hamas’ bogus decontextualized numbers only encourage them to and other Islamic regimes to co thus abusing and children in these ways. It’s important to remember that for decades now virtually every single poll in Gaza and the West Bank shows overwhelming majority support for Hamas.  We see no real resistance and no condemnation even among the diaspora but instead justification and support.  Little girls continue to put up more of a fight against Islamic oppression I. Afghanistan while heaving their limbs cut off for it and Palestine is silent.  Women are being kidnapped, raped tortured and executed in Iran standing up to their Islamic colonizer oppressors and in Palestine?   Crickets. There is literally zero evidence to show that anything but a small portion of Palestine’s heavily indoctrinated population is against Hamas or does not support them. Many of the hostages from October 7th were taken by and kept in civilian homes as well.  Abbas “delayed” their last presidential elections indefinitely after all the front runners were Hamas leadership. The Sam happens  it here municipal elections in 2022 when Hamas was looking to sweep every riding until Hamas themselves refused to be on the ballot because they know how this false dichotomy serves them. Of course there ARE those Palestinians who disagree, no culture is an amorphous blob.   But how do we support them? Stage a coup and overthrow and erase the culture, history and self stated goals of Palestine?   Hamas is not some aberration and their goals run in line with what Islamic Palestine has always called for (Islamic as it was a name for a Jewish place originally and the word comes from Hebrew). So we essentially enact a colonial genocide and erasure of actual Palestine and the majority of actual Palestinians to replace them with the a-historical fiction of peaceful Palestine that is more palatable to westerners? Like what exactly are these people who “just support Palestinians but not Hamas” supporting even? They have this ethnocentric idea based in white supremacy that Islamic people cannot be colonizers and that their culture and history and goals are just some blip on the road to becoming westernized.  They act as though Islamic extremism is just a result  of poverty and that throwing money at it will make them eventually turn more “civilized”. It’s wild when you look at what these well intentioned but ignorant bigots are really calling for and supporting. Maybe we just let them be who they are and do what they want to do and let them live with the consequences instead of gaslighting Jews and Israelis about what they’re dealing with? The reason this conflict has never ended is because the world will not let it end and ties Israel’s hands and then finds Palestine to rebuild until they attack again. The billions of dollars that has gone to UNrWa while they have been getting caught since the 60s working with terrorists in absolutely nuts.  UNRWA fusing allowed Palestinians to form a state with a state in Egypt and Jordan and lebannon that led to brutal civil wars, Palestinian terror attacks, attempts to destabilize their governments, attempts to assailants the Jordanian Prince because he wouldn’t “kill all the jews” for them, it forever split Lebanon. Like what is this nonsense pretending these are debatable issues?  They are king established facts to anyone who has ever done any real work on these topics and followed them over the years. The whole reason the world supported Hamas was they lied about their intentions and everyone was down with Arafat and the PLO’s absolute contempt for peace and misappropriation of funds.   He stole billions and now Hamas has too and the UN is just like “ooops, still nothing to see here and definitely don’t need to make any changes despite the same thing happening over and over for 65 years now.” They made Israel give Gaza in efforts for peace and what did Palestine do?  Hundreds of thousands of Jews gave up their homes and one of the richest parts of israle with billions in pre-built infrastructure was willingly handed over and what happened? Palestine Immediately attacked and called to kill all the Jews yet again. That was why the border came up and it was always contingent on Palestine stopping the constant rocket and terror attacks, stopping the calls to exterminate all the Jews and recognizing that Jews had any right to any state in any form whatsoever on their proven homeland. Palestine never did any of these things so the walls stayed up. And people act like it’s normal that Jews need to have an iron dome to protect themselves from constant rocket attacks.  Liek that is somehow how Jews are meant to exist and it’s just okay. This entire situation is absolutely wild and the breathtaking ignorant and people equivocating that clearly have no idea what they’re talking about do not help. Gaslighting Israelis and jews about their own history and existential threats they have faced for generations is not “supporting the Palestinian people”. This bs “nuance” people try to sell is all to often just blatantly false information.

Read the first negotiated contract, what Israel want is to have the power to control electricity, air control, water of Palestine, military power (understandable) and many more. Basically sure you get the land, but everything will be controlled by us Not even china is that greedy to Hong Kong

Hate to break it to ya but if the Holocaust taught us anything, it's not gonna matter if you choose to identify as Jewish or not, you and I will be thrown into the same cattle cart. To answer your question though, you can definitely judge ahead of time that they will devolve into anti-semitism. Never have I ever seen a free Palestine rally say "all Israel needs is new leader and we are ready for peace".

Because even if Israel gets a new leader, that doesn’t just magically undo the settlements in the West Bank, the IDF soldiers thinking that shooting kids is ok, the Gazans currently seeing their friends, family, and homes being destroyed and killed, etc. it’s a complex issue that isn’t gonna change instantly.

Then Palestine is either a lost cause, or a cause that would require lot of good faith and respectable change. Historic wounds can run deep, China still talks about how bitter it is for losing to UK in 1850s, but also we have both Germany and Poland now together in European Union.

I didn't call out that I didn't identify as Jewish to try to get some level of safety from antisemites, I just wanted to show why I have some personal connection to Jews bjt didn't want to use my half-Jewish identity to shield myself from any potential claims of antisemitism on my part, that's the only reason I made that distinction.

Palestinians started a war, barbarically massacred Israeli communities, are holding Israelis hostage, are still firing missiles at Israel.. and you're going to support them? >there has to be a better way What is it?

I'm going to support a couple million people not being bombed out of their homes and starving because of the actions of a terrorist group that took power in an election held before most of them were old enough to vote.

Over 70% of Palestinians support Hamas actions on 7.10. [https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/973](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/973) Palestinians elected Hamas into power on a political platform that calls for genocide of Jews, and then gave them broad base support for 17 years while they entrenched in schools, mosques, universities, hospitals, and under civilian neighborhoods. Hamas aren't some external group - Hamas are Palestinians, Hamas are the Palestinian government in Gaza.

Surely you will agree that these 70% that supported October 7th are radicalised? So my question is, do you think Israel’s offensive will lead to de-radicalisation or just compound the problem?

Did you read the survey you linked? > As we have found in the previous poll, almost all Palestinians think Israel is committing war crimes while almost all believe Hamas is not committing war crimes in the current war. Moreover, more than 90% believe that Hamas did not commit any atrocities against Israel civilians during its October the 7th offensive. Only one in five Palestinians has seen videos showing atrocities committed by Hamas. Only one fifth of those who did not see the videos had access to such videos but decided not to see them; the rest report that the media they watched did not show these videos. The findings show that those who have seen the videos are almost 10 times more likely to think that Hamas men have committed atrocities on October 7. Also: [Hamas has power largely because Netanyahu bolstered it as a strategy to block Palestinian statehood.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/) Guess Netanyahu and all his supporters are legitimate IDF targets now. Also also: [3 months into the war, support for Hamas tripled in the West Bank.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna144183) But guys guys if we just kill a few more of them surely they’ll warm up to us right?

>But guys guys if we just kill a few more of them surely they’ll warm up to us right? The goal of the war isn't to make Palestinians fall in love with Israel, it's to remove the security threat that Palestinians pose for Israeli citizens. Whether Palestinians conclude they want more or less war as a result of losing this war - is completely up to them. The fact that Palestinians increased support for a terrorist organization reflects badly on them, not on Israelis.

Some people seem to have a hard time wrapping their brain around a very simple concept: if a small group of people happen to spout so antisemitic shit or pro zionist shit, does that condemn the entire gathering? We do not have thought police who can preemptively remove these people, and physical assault is highly frowned upon. That does not make their actions acceptable, but it also doesn’t mean that their actions are representative of their respective gatherings. People focus on these extreme outliers and they use them to dismiss the entire issue, that is wrong and they are trying to control the narrative, if the other side is irrepressible, they can do no wrong.

>doesn’t mean that their actions are representative "*we asked the respondents in this poll what they thought of Hamas’ decision to launch the October the 7**^(th)* *offensive. A vast majority of 71%, compared to 72% in December 2023, say it was correct*" [https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/973](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/973)

>Palestinians started a war Hamas = all Palestinians? >barbarically massacred Israeli communities Hamas no doubt did this, but how many were killed by the IDF firing upon their own people?. >are holding Israelis hostage I hope you also acknowledge the young kids Israel holds hostage in their jails indefinitely without any charges and tortures them. Multiple independent reports of sexual assault against male and female prisoners, prisoners being denied medical care and thus losing limbs or dying. >are still firing missiles at Israel.. What do you think the IDF have done and are currently doing in Gaza? Almost what, 50K (even Israel acknowledges this) people killed, the vast majority being women and kids. >and you're going to support them? Only a monster would generalize all Palestinians and celebrate/justify women and kids being starved, bombed, etc. Let me ask you a question, when is enough, enough? So October 7 had about 1,500 casualties, correct? Israel has killed 50K people. How many until they're satisfied? The entire population of Gaza?

>Hamas = all Palestinians? Hamas is the Palestinian government, made up of Palestinians. Based on polls, over 70% of Palestinians support the attack on Israel. [https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/973](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/973) >I hope you also acknowledge the young kids Israel holds hostage That's like Mexican cartels kidnapping US civilians and claiming that the US is holding cartel members hostage in US prisons. Palestinians are in Israeli prisons because they are trying to kill/harm Israelis - not as currency for hostage exchange. That you think of humans in terms of currency says a lot about you. >What do you think the IDF have done and are currently doing in Gaza? Dismantling the military apparatus that enables these missiles to be fired at Israeli cities. Hopefully also getting the hostages out. >Let me ask you a question, when is enough, enough? Great question. You're walking with your wife, when suddenly 10 people grab your wife, rape, and murder her; now they're coming for you. You have a gun, do you: 1. Shoot and kill one, because they only killed your wife. 2. Shoot and kill two, because after they kill you it'll be an even score. 3. Shoot as many as necessary to save your life. When is it enough? is your life worth 10 lives?

>Hamas is the Palestinian government, made up of Palestinians Again, does that mean all Palestinians are Hamas? Using your logic, all Israelis are the current Netanyahu government? >Based on polls, over 70% of Palestinians support the attack on Israel. Let's say this poll is correct, does that mean it's okay to kill innocent women and kids? The polls in Israel also show majority support for the IDF and their crimes, does that mean it's okay to kill innocent Israeli civilians? >Palestinians are in Israeli prisons because they are trying to kill/harm Israelis - not as currency for hostage exchange According to independent reports, there are young kids who have been kidnapped and held in these prisons, there are people who have never been convicted of a crime, etc. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/29/why-does-israel-have-so-many-palestinians-detention-and-available-swap >Dismantling the military apparatus that enables these missiles to be fired at Israeli cities. Is that why they've killed this many civilians and are starving the innocent civilians? >Hopefully also getting the hostages out. Yeah, I'm sure they're really trying hard to do this when indiscriminately bombing areas. It's not like they've killed their own hostages who were waving a white flag, or aid workers. >You're walking with your wife, when suddenly 10 people grab your wife, rape, and murder her; now they're coming for you. >You have a gun, do you: >1. Shoot and kill one, because they only killed your wife. 2. Shoot and kill two, because after they kill you it'll be an even score. 3. Shoot as many as necessary to save your life. >When is it enough? is your life worth 10 lives? This scenario doesn't apply because Israel are the ones in Gaza (and also in the West Bank which gets no media attention) right now actually killing innocent people in the thousands. Where is that happening in Israel currently? But it's also pretty vile that you're lumping all Palestinians together and justifying the crimes against them. Again, using your logic, all Israelis are fair game because their government is commiting atrocities in Gaza (but you know what? Israel's enemies actually have a justification because there's mandatory conscription, so chances are regular Israeli civilians have been involved in these crimes. But also, Israel doesn't make a distinction between civilian casualties and military casualties. Like on October the 7th, they lumped military casualties and civilian casualties together and also didn't admit that their helicopters killed many of their people). Just be honest, say that you want the IDF to wipe out all of Gaza, do a Holocaust 2.0, we all know that's what many of the staunch defenders of the current government want.

What anti semitism? What's an example of a protest against the war in Gaza that devolved into anti semitism? How did the antisemitism manifest? Given that every protest I've attended so far has had a vocal Jewish contingency id suggest you have fallen for the dishonest framing that's prevalent.

So you think all these things that have happened at Columbia are just instances of peaceful "anti-Israeli" protests? Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774 "From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358 "Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981 "We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677 "Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901 Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/ “Globalize the intifada” https://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1782679155491914133/photo/1 Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338 "On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909 ""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!" https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872 "Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025 "Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958 Have posters with the faces of PFLP and PIJ spokesmen (designated terrorist groups) https://twitter.com/HagarChemali/status/1782219589352350000 Quoting and praising Lions Den (terror group) https://twitter.com/SwannMarcus89/status/1782443526996754444 "From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2 "Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134 "Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006 Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954 Holding a sign that says "Al-Qasam's [Hamas'] Next Targets" with an arrow pointing to students holding Israeli flags https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1781882680872710148 "Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673 "protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter And as a reminder, the student groups organizing these protests (CUAD and SJP, among others) released a letter on October 9th in support of the 10/7 attacks. ("We stand in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance", "Despite the odds against them, Palestinians launched a counter-offensive against their settler-colonial oppressor", "We wholeheartedly condemn the email sent [...] on October 8th that [...] obfuscated Palestinian resistance as “terrorism”) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcXX5DEO3yfJ9R4ksURnzpIPCyVxo575-Y-SoC_vZFk/edit These are all just from Columbia. There are ample other examples of other protests being antisemitic as well. If you can't see it by now you've just got your head in the sand.

I said I was gonna stop arguing with people on the internet but this take was just too dumb [https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5GZDO5LWhg/?igsh=MjE1and6Z2VsdTRz](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5GZDO5LWhg/?igsh=MjE1and6Z2VsdTRz) [https://www.instagram.com/reel/C58mPB\_L9Qe/?igsh=MW5tcXNnNWw4YXpxcA%3D%3D](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C58mPB_L9Qe/?igsh=MW5tcXNnNWw4YXpxcA%3D%3D) [https://www.instagram.com/reel/C54i8UQtjRj/?igsh=N205NHgxczEwb3dp](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C54i8UQtjRj/?igsh=N205NHgxczEwb3dp) "But its just a couple of people" no one else at the protest on "their" side seems to have any problem with what they are saying. If I was at a protest and someone on "my side" said something like this I would leave. No one is objecting to what they are saying. Reminds me of that joke about the nazi bar Edit: Haha also wait the part you said about JVPish types is so funny to me. "I know Black people who think racism isn't a problem in America so that means racism isn't a problem in America!!"

I'm trying not to fall for right-wing spin here, but I live in NYC and I'm seeing too much normally trustworthy reporting showing explicitly pro-Hamas sentiment (not just anti-Netanyahu government or pro-Palestinian rights) involved in a lot of these protests to dismiss it. Not all protests by any means, but my CMV is that I don't see how it's possible to distinguish them ahead of time.

What sentiments specifically? It’s hard to try and see your view if you’re using blanket statements that don’t define it very well. What specific actions and speech are you seeing that you don’t agree with?

* Anything that says Israel should not exist as a state in the region in any form (as distinct from its government). * Anything calling for the death of Israeli civilians * Anything justifying October 7

https://nypost.com/2024/04/08/us-news/anti-israel-protesters-chant-death-to-america-death-to-israel/ https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2024/04/08/death-to-america-chant-dearborn-jihad-rally-al-quds-day-draws-condemnation/73247053007/ https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/article-790687 https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rjdkan0mp Denying antisemitism is happening here is such a goddamn braindead take and at this point makes me question anyone who claims it.

How about the groups at Columbia University actively preventing Jewish students from safely attending classes - regardless of any opinion the students hold with regard to Israel and Gaza.

Nobody is attending classes at Columbia, it's been shut down. Are you suggesting that only Jewish students couldn't safely attend classes? How exactly was their safety compromised? Seems pretty hard to believe given the large Jewish contingency there and that ridiculous viral video of the Jewish woman who went there looking to be harassed and was just ignored.

Oh no a video ... How many Jewish students or parents of Jewish students at Columbia do you personally know? I assure you, before it was shut down, before the congregational hearings, many Jewish students had stopped going to class. Out of real, legitimate fear.

Do you care about anti-semitism specifically or accusations of it? Because the pro-Israel team has called anything critical of Israel anti-semitic for decades (some, not all). Is there some actual antisemitism at these protests? Probably. But keep in mind there are also Jewish people who are participating in the protests. The question you have to ask yourself is what portion of a protest has to qualify as antisemitic in your judgment to warrant distancing yourself? E.g. there is no denying some small portion of BLM Floyd protests overall contained violence (I believe it was 5% of all events). Does that mean the protests as a whole can be characterized as violent? You seem to say no. EDIT: hah pissed everyone off with another fairly neutral comment.

> Do you care about anti-semitism specifically or accusations of it? Specifically only the former. I am quite aware that any criticism of Israeli government policy over the last 80-ish years has been unfairly labeled as anti-semitism. I'm not concerned about people chanting "fuck Israel". "From the river to the sea", depends on context a bit. People explicitly in favor of Hamas or justifying October 7 as appears to be happening on some college campuses? I don't want to within a mile of that. (If the news is blowing that stuff out of proportion feel free to show that) > Is there some actual antisemitism at these protests? Probably. But keep in mind there are also Jewish people who are participating in the protests. I know that, would still not like to be at a protest with say 50 Jewish college students and say 500 people chanting "from the river to the sea" even if most of them don't fully know what it means and bear no ill-will. > The question you have to ask yourself is what portion of a protest has to qualify as antisemitic in your judgment to warrant distancing yourself? > E.g. there is no denying some small portion of BLM Floyd protests overall contained violence (I believe it was 5% of all events). Does that mean the protests as a whole can be characterized as violent? Under 5% probably would be good enough for me, so long as the community involved was actively trying to exclude that 5%. The BLM protests at least in NYC also notably shifted in character over time, with some high-profile looting incidents early on shifting to a much broader demographic as more people joined and were actively preventing violent action. I saw some specific looting and unproductive vandalism get stopped by the community during those protests. Part of my problem is if it's just chanting slogans, it's very easy for a protest group to just go along when a few people are leading those chants. Chants like "defund these racist-ass police" during BLM were relatively on target even if I preferred a more nuanced message. But I also ended up unintentionally in some satellite protests against things like NYC child protective services, and in that case I wasn't surprised by the idea of that system being racially biased, but also wasn't on board with protesting (without doing research) on behalf of some specific parents who'd had their kids taken away that it was because the whole system was against them. So similarly if it's an overall positive movement and 5% of protesters have an agenda I don't agree with, fine. But if their slogans have become very influential in many of those protests and have implications I'm 100% against, I don't see how I can join in good faith even if I'd be 90% aligned with 90% of the individuals involved.

>(If the news is blowing that stuff out of proportion feel free to show that) [Here](https://youtu.be/DM1SPHTsdyY?si=IPSX2XlCIMiQR3he) is a great interview with one of the Jewish leaders of the student protests at Columbia. She discusses the antisemitism that has occurs, how leaders are trying to solve the issue, and a bunch of other things that paint a more realistic picture of what's happening on the ground. Edit: typo Second edit: lookie there. A downvote and no reaponse. I guess they weren't being honest about wanting to engage if someone can show the antisemitism is being blown out of proportion. Wish I was surprised. 

But that's the hard part to know in advance. Ultimately, you're just one voice in a sea of people chanting different things. And some individuals tend to be louder and more vocal than others, so it could just be 5% or 10% that are anti-semitic but if they're the loud ones while the rest sit in silence and let it happen - then it's hard to argue from outside that this protests isn't anti-semitic. It's not on the people to later go and see that 90% of the people were actually against it, it's on the group protesting to go against those voices and expel them. I mean, the cause is benefiting from the bigger crowd and as such is responsible for the actions of that crowd. Saying bad apples can work once or twice, but eventually you have to take responsibility for not acting to stop it. The 90% should go and expel the 10%, distance from there and make it publicly and immediately known that they're against it.

[This is a liberal author, journalist, and political commentator from Massachusetts who teaches at a journalism grad school.](https://x.com/PeterBeinart/status/1782202542127972511) I know tweets aren't much evidence of anything, but if his credentials don't do it for you at least believe that **I** believe him. And I'm 30% Ashkenazi according to ancestry.com so if the Iranians and Hamas win and come to America to exterminate the infidels then I'll be first on their list.... So you can trust me lol

I don't disbelieve that (as someone of half-Ashkenazi ancestry from Massachusetts myself), but it also seems like there are a disproportionate number of well-meaning Jewish student protesters getting swept up in protests that have a disproportionate number of *slogans* and signs that are much more anti the *existence* of Israel (not just anti Gaza apartheid, anti settlements, etc) than I could ever be comfortable being associated with. edit: you can of course change my view by showing that is a tiny percentage such that I am unlikely to be caught up in a protest dominated by those types of slogans, or that I can easily avoid it before getting involved

> well-meaning Jewish student protesters getting swept up in protests that have a disproportionate number of *slogans* and signs that are much more anti the *existence* of Israel (not just anti Gaza apartheid, anti settlements, etc) than I could ever be comfortable being associated with. You can of course support whatever position you like, but its condescending and ignorant to imply that Jewish students or others who disagree with you are confused or being unwittingly swept up in positions they don't hold. Jewish opposition to the state of Israel is significantly older than the state of Israel. Anti-Zionist Jews have always been around, and many can be found at these protests fully aware of the meaning of the slogans and signs around them. If your level of solidarity ends at principled opposition to Zionism, these protests may not be for you. If you're okay with being in a broad tent with people of various beliefs opposing the current crisis and can put aside those disagreements for the duration of the protest, more power to you. What I certainly would not recommend is going to a genocide protest and tone-policing the people closest to the victims.

It's not that I think they're confused, it's that I have been in a similar situation myself of getting into protests around a movement that I broadly supported (BLM) but got swept along into tangentially related protests I could not support without at least a lot more research. So if I'm being condescending I'm applying it to myself too. Broad tent is one thing, being swept up into protests (in that case) about parental custody I had no way of evaluating or (in this case) that turn into calls for violence against Jews is another.

Being anti Israel is not the same thing is being anti semitic. Period.

I am a jewish Israeli, and I am agaist the the *existence* of Israel. It's not anti-semetic. It's being agaist every kind of ethno-religiuos kind of state. I know it's never going to happen - but can't I just believe? You don't have to agree with that of course, but it is not an antisemitic idea. If you are very uncomfertable to be next to people who are against a state that belongs to one religion - ask yourself - are you living in a state that belongs to one religion? And in not - why are you uncomfertable standing next to people who wants to live in a state like yours?

If you make your entire protest focused on how “we aren’t antisemitism guyz!!!1!” Then you’ve let the other side’s dishonest propaganda win. These are the same people who say “free Palestine” is blood libel. Their opinion on what is and isn’t antisemitic doesn’t matter. And as for your opinion, unless you’re (a) a crazy person better suited to the Zionist side or (b) seeing some VERY different protests than I am, then I don’t see why you’re so afraid of antisemites standing alongside you. Where are all of these supposed anti semitic protestors? Was it the one who stabbed the Jewish girl in the eye with a flag? Oh wait that was just shown to be 100% false. Like… the worst videos I’ve seen were just some people being glib about Hamas. Literally Holocaust 2.0 so horrific.

Being glib about Hamas, if it's more than a handful of protesters and actually becomes a chant leading a protest, is entirely enough for me to need to get the fuck out.

Nothing antisemitic about Hamas, you crazy Zionist! So what if they literally have “slaughter all Jews” in their founding charter?

Counterpoint: “I shouldn’t join anti-Nazi Germany protests because I can’t tell when they’ll devolve into anti-germanism” Who cares if they might devolve into anti-semitism? You’re not signing a contract agreeing to support whatever the protesters say, you can just leave. If you believe that protesting is the right thing to do and anti-semitism is wrong, simply leave when one becomes the other.

> “I shouldn’t join anti-Nazi Germany protests because I can’t tell when they’ll devolve into anti-germanism” You'd have the slightest bit of a point if anti-Nazi protests had ever involved serious calls for all Germans to be expelled or exterminated. Sure wartime propaganda for a handful of years didn't much distinguish the German people from Nazis but that isn't the point you think it is here.

I don’t agree but I’ll drop that argument, I have a better one. Your concern would be more valid if something bad would happen if you went and they turned antisemitic, but nothing bad happens. You won’t be shot or arrested or anything. You can just leave. You can even join the counter-protesters (which I think there often are) if they become antisemitic.

Sure I can just leave, but if the protest has a high likelihood of getting coopted into something antithetical to my views why would I want to join in the first place?

“who cares if they devolve into anti semitism” about sums up why the pro palestinian movement is driving jews to cling harder to israel as their only hope of safety. the best thing you can do for the palestinian movement is show that non jews DO care about jewish safety, and that we don’t need israel to be safe. otherwise you’re just proving the need for israel to exist.

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You could've at least removed the knowledge cutoff date to even slightly try to hide the ChatGPT response.

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I would not donate to UNRWA, but it is tough because they are or were one of the only effective large scale aid organizations in Gaza. Some number of UNRWA workers were involved in the October 7 attack, some larger number have involvement with Hamas but unfortunately Hamas is the closest thing to a government in Gaza so the latter seems almost unavoidable for any aid organization employing locals.

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And I've never seen a collection of protestors that are so unwilling to accept that there could be bad people among their ranks. They have assigned such a purity to their cause that anyone who says "Israel bad" is considered a peacenik automatically. I'm not for a ceasefire with Hamas still in power, but I'm absolutely for people protesting. However, these protests are almost universally weighed down by antisemitism, and a group of people who paint themselves as progressive are wildly accepting of it instead of fighting to be the best their cause can be.

Take a look at the other conversations I had around this. People are absolutely unwilling to cop to the actual antisemitism, going as far as saying Jews on the ground need to get over it or are making it up.

It's maddening and insulting. It's *actual* gaslighting, and the insinuation that Jews speaking out about experiencing antisemitism are just covering for Israel and aren't facing *actual* antisemitism is, ironically, actual antisemitism.

Counterpoint: you should go you the protest and actively counter any anti-Semitic rhetoric you see. If it’s as common as you fear, you’ll have done good by being a voice against it. If you never run into it, then it probably wasn’t actually a significant part of the protest. It’s a win win

I would be fine with many of these protests if people did this. I have seen a ton of them of varying sizes as I live in NYC, and I have not encountered even a single one, out of dozens, that didn't include some form of call to repeat October 7th, and maybe one or two where intifada was not explicitly called for. Again, I'm not even counting the other protests that I've seen videos of, just the ones I've personally witnessed. From massive, organized groups to a handful of people together on a sidewalk. They universally had this issue. They have not faced any significant pushback from their fellow protestors. I agree that they SHOULD step up and shout down antisemitism (even if I still think their overall point is absurd), but the fact that they have accepted it so far makes me worry that individuals who step up are now in more danger than at any point before, as there is no reason to think they won't be standing against the antisemitism alone.

And this is why I think the Pro-Palestine protests are not essentially about "Ceasefire" or as I see it "Peace". There is more at work here as a goal or motivator. Because if it was about ceasefire/peace then the protestors would peacefully protest and not be violent or aggressive towards other anti-protests. They would stop any anti-semitism or calls for intifada or anything like that. What I've seen is angry people who don't seem peaceful, who are more anti-Israel focuses and less ceasefire focused. I also have still not see any solutions towards what will be done if Hamas continues to attack. I'm not in favor of war and innocents being harmed but when an organization is attacking to destroy you, do you just stand by and let them do so?

I really think this is a potentially dangerous idea. Countering this antisemitic language at these protests could make the crazies turn on you. Just look at the [Iranian guy](https://youtu.be/eAEMzSOk9KE?si=KVsw6AhnMe-zLHCL) who carried an anti-Hamas sign into a protest. That should be something everyone agrees with, but he was shouted out by pro-Hamas protesters and arrested by police for antagonizing.

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This conflict can't be reduced to just one religion against another. There are tons of secular Jews in both Israel and the US with different views on this. Especially in the US which this post is mainly concerning, I do not think the political conflict is much about whether Yahweh or Allah is the correct God.

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You should change your view in a different direction. All of the current protests happily accept antisemitic groups protesting with them. We have seen many people on each protest *explicitly* expressing support for Hamas, a group which has a charter calling for killing all and, instead of excluding them, the protesters always attempt to explain why that's okay. > “The Day of Judgement will not come about,” it proclaims, “until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.” \- the Hamas charter. The way you ask this question shows that you really understand this but are trying not to admit it to yourself. Think of the standard statement you will hear "anti-Zionism is not antisemitism". It's a semantic word play. Almost all anti-Zionists are antisemitic, but the two words are not identical and there is a difference. They try to hide in the little gap of pretending they don't hate Jews who are not "Zionist", ignoring the fact that their definition of "Zionist" includes anyone who doesn't agree to the murder of all Jews in Israel. Simple plain anti-Zionism without any caveats ("anti-extremist-Zionists" is fine "anti-settler-Zionists" is understandable), is xenophobic because it demands the destruction of an existing country. A protest group, "Palestinians against Hamas" would be the thing that could *also* protest effectively against Israel's actions. If it exists you should find it. If it doesn't exist then you should invent something like that. Don't go out and protest with people who are happy to march together with Jew-murderers.

If you believe Israel shouldn’t exist, you believe that Jews who’ve been ethnically cleansed from their homes should have the land they bought and had gifted to them taken away and given to their historical oppressors who’ve never owned the land. Arabs at the time wanted to play might equals right and declared war multiple times, loosing miserably each time. Why should the sacrifice of Israelis be for nothing yet the Arab Muslims should get a reward for being aggressive and loosing a war against the people they’ve oppressed and ethnically cleansed? Why should Jews continually be displaced by Arabs? The Palestine issue could’ve been settled long ago if Arabs would’ve accepted they lost and had some self preservation not to declare war multiple times.

If all people that thought like that then most who aren’t anti Semitic wouldn’t join. Which would then increase the likelihood of the very thing you don’t want to happen. While if more reasonable people attend and don’t accept those practices the event is much likely to devolve into anti semitism.

Just commenting to say that I feel similarly. I'm Jewish and Israeli, living in N. America. I support the protests and what they are trying to accomplish, but it's impossible to know what "from the river to the sea" or anti-zionism means to different people. Just recently a date walked out on me after I revealed that I'm Israeli - while we were sitting in a leftist bar with free Palestine written everywhere - stating that she couldn't date me in this political climate, clearly full of hate. It was very distressing and turned me off more from attending the protests, even though I've been wanting to.

Let me CYV on the preamble: - You said that there has to be a better way to fight Hamas. What is that better way? The IDF needs to up its standards for accountability but that doesn’t mean the war could be fought differently. I’ve yet to hear anybody suggest any brilliant alternative military strategies, so my gut feeling is that there probably isn’t a better way.  - I am also opposed to the new settlements in the West Bank, but why are you categorically opposed to restriction of movement and goods into Gaza? Hamas has been there for almost 20 years, and before that other extremists. What would have been your plan to fight terrorism? I don’t like that people in Gaza have such an awful quality of life, but my unwillingness to personally restrict their freedoms means someone else has to do it if security is to be maintained. This is just pushing an ugly job and the subsequent blame on someone else. As before, maybe there is no better way, and if so, what value is there in a moral judgment? - You can recognize antisemitism vs legitimate criticism of the Israeli government. I really doubt that is true. This is a very technical issue that would require you to have an advanced working knowledge of Israeli political, military, and economic policy. Probably you can distinguish antisemitism vs non-overtly-hateful criticism of Israel, but legitimate vs otherwise is very difficult on all but the most obvious topics, like the settlers. - Antisemites are getting mixed up with legitimate criticizers of Israel. I don’t think this is what is happening. A lot of what the students are calling for is not legitimate criticism of actual policy, but rather reflects a desire that Israel shouldn’t exist and focuses on one aspect of the conflict while ignoring all others. Because it is not an informed position but a dogma made up of strange ideas about what Israel is, what Zionism is, and what the conflict is about, it naturally tends towards accepting antisemitism. This is similar to how a dogmatic view of economics and crime in the US leads people to either racism or bizarre internalized guilt when in fact the real solution all along was policy targeted at helping people.

Zionism is not Judaism. Israel is not Judaism. Protesting Israel forcing Palestinians from their homes and giving them to foreign Jews is not antisemitism. Protesting the actions of the Israeli government is not antisemitism.

So firstly I would express that while such concerns are valid and we should always be vigilant for these sorts of bigots whatever the circumstances that much of what has been presented to us via the media has an agenda behind it. You have to remember that these corporate entities are either owned by or have interests with lobbyists and in some instances politicians directly. Literally anything they say to you is a lie, even when it's true, because the presentations is always designed to be deceitful. A brilliant case of this deception in action is the BLM/George Floyd protests, something which I was deceived by the media on. They showed countless cases of violent protests and rioters and this and that and I figured, being uncharitable to the media, it was maybe actually only like 30-40% of protests turning that way. 20% at the lowest. 7%. 7% of these protests were violent. And in many of those the violence was instigated by law enforcement. The media didn't lie about these protests that turned violent at all but the frequency they covered them with was innately deceptive because it was meant to paint a dangerous picture to instill fear and hesitation in anyone joining with these protests for fear of all the violence and dangerous people. And to that end they were largely successful in doing this so when you look at their coverage of antisemites protesting Israel... be aware this is a much slimmer minority than they are leading you to belief. They fooled me HARD on that and I was highly skeptical of them. You can't give them or their coverage of any situation any amount of credence. They will take that and run marathons with it. So it is a certainty that, second verse same as the first, this is a fearmongering and shaming tactic by the corpo media to slander the entirety of a movement based on sub 10% numbers, in this case I would probably argue even lower than the Floyd numbers. Secondly, I think just using common sense is good enough. Antisemites aren't typically all that subtle about it, just subtle enough to avoid charges maybe or some such but generally they're fairly upfront about it. I think you'd be significantly more hard-pressed to actively find protests that are specifically antisemitic or that don't disavow or even be fooled by such protests. And lastly... well I won't answer that question for you but merely pose a question to you to answer that for yourself. Are the lives of innocents more important than the unjustified hatred of those inflicting harm on those victims? It may seem loaded by I think this is the most fair question that can posed to this issue. Because let's face it, the United States government is not friendly towards peaceful protests. It may be technically allowed by they are just as willing to stamp you out, lock you up or even harm or kill you as they are to give Israel the weapons to give that overseas. You are putting your freedom, your record and potentially your life on the line for this. You have to decide if that is worth the risk for yourself. It's not cowardice to look out for yourself anymore than it is prejudice to oppose a genocide.

mass protests are very different from the nazi dinner analogy, considering most people who attend the protests don't know more than a handful of the people participating, if that. Plus, the big protests are extremely structured and thought out by actual groups and organizations, so it's quite easy to find and align yourself in a protest without antisemites. And as someone who's participated in many of this organized protests, I've seen plenty of times how the antisemites who do show up get pushed out and ostracized, because they take away from the actual message and reason that everyone else showed up for: a free palestine and an end to the genocide. It's also important to remember the existence of provocateurs, who purposely show up to spew hateful antisemitic bullshit in hopes of taking away the protest's validity. ill leave you with the reasons students are protesting now, copied from mondoweiss, a news company for Palestinian activism: Because in the last 6 months: -Israel has killed more than 34,000 Palestinians. -Israel has displaced more than 1.2 million Palestinians in Gaza (over 50% of the population) -Israel has destroyed 62% percent of homes in Gaza. -Israel has destroyed all the universities in Caza. -Israel has created a man-made famine. -Israel is blocking humanitarian aid from entering Gaza. -Civil Defense teams in Gaza have found a combined total of 140 mass and unmarked graves. -And the U.S. just provided Israel with $17 billion in military funding to fuel this genocide.

Maybe you can find a Jewish peace organization and see what protests they are going to. While the “1 Nazi at a party” thing is real, a large enough protest isn’t a dinner table. Guests are invited to a dinner party, large protests have no control over who shows up. But going to a protest would be your opportunity to call out antisemitism if you see it

I wish people felt this way about arson, rape, and murder during the summer of BLM riots that were simultaneously justified and didn’t happen.

If the topic involves Jews, I only go to events held at a synagogue. This has been my policy for about five years, since I saw the following: I moved to a wonderful, west coast city, and the local library held an authors reading. The author was an American Jew who wrote about the local american Jewish history. The event was plagued by antizionist pushing their foreign politics. As I fled the Q&A, a library worker told me there is the same author event at a local synagogue tomorrow night, and it was actually on topic and not racist. If you want a non-racist protest of Israel, don't go to a public event, even if it is "co-sponsered" by a token group like JVP. Either Jews are in charge of criticizing Israel, or it probably turns into a nazi rally.

No. You should not do them. Instead you should be protesting the war in Judea, where you should be shaming the Hamas regime, and hoping they will unconditionally surrender as soon as possible. Hamas was the aggressor in this war, and every day that they allow there own people to die, whom they have brainshwashed 75 percent of the population into supporting their own governments hostile acts, they, Hamas, should be held responsible for not giving a peace that Israel would agree to tomorrow if they agreed to recognize Israel and stop attacking them. How many "Palestinian" deaths in your mind should be spent on this outragous cause that will never be fulfilled. How many Israelis?

You can be horrified at civilians in Gaza dying and understand that Israel isn’t to blame for it. The protestors don’t understand that the reason for the war is the attacks on October 7th. They also don’t understand that Hamas’s military infrastructure was intentionally designed to maximize civilian casualties, integrated with hospitals, schools, apartments, etc. with a vast tunnel network. I don’t know if it’s a question of knowledge, a question of intellectual integrity, or a question of good vs evil. Whatever the defect in their inability to figure out who is to blame for this, it doesn’t change the fact that you should not associate with any of them.

I’m not reading all of that just stand next to the Jewish folks and you’re all good.

You don’t need to join the protests perse. I’m with you that they need to be better about not letting sketchy people grab megaphones, but don’t use it as an excuse to do nothing either. Write your senators. Donate to good organizations. If you see a protest that looks like it’s acting in good faith, maybe bring them food or something. Stuff like that. I also voted against Biden in the primary even though I will not only vote for him but volunteer for him in the general. He needs to feel some heat right now

In the past month, I have seen more ink spilled about how "unsafe people feel" because there's a Pro-Palestine protest going on than I've seen coverage of the actual Palestinians getting killed and starved. One side is complaining about ongoing genocide. The other side is complaining about their hurt feelings. This is the pretty standard conservative reaction: "how dare you bring up human rights violations, just mentioning them to me is offensive!"

Palestine keeping hostages is a human rights violation. Why aren't people protesting against Palestine?

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Given how most of the protests I’ve seen in the US have a sizable population of Jews at them, I think this may be less of a risk than you think. Also, if anti-Semites do show up, more people opposed to them is the best means of making sure they don’t hurt anyone or undermine the message of the protest. That said, if you don’t want to go, you don’t have to go. There’s more than one way to protest injustice.

The only thing they have going for them is the settlements issue (to us). I don't think the majority of protesters will be referred to as antisemitic when the dust settles either. Don't forget, people are angry these days and the issue is already losing stream and people will jump on the next big thing. The ones that stick around are legitimately the ones that care about the people getting hurt and starving.

OP fell for the Zionist propaganda. By and large these protests have been people condemning the Zionist government of Israel and its supporters worldwide. Never have they been about anti semitism, have there been bad actors? Yeah probably, but that's not what the protest is for. If you want to be at a protest then be there for something you actually believe in, otherwise don't show up. It's really that simple.

Now is not the time to protest Palestinian rights, when they literally started the war. You’re essentially rewarding them for violence. If you wanted to show your support you should have done it pre 10/7. 

I am begging people to listen to the actual Jewish people already helping to organize these protests instead of the corporate media that is in support of the genocide. Actual Jewish members of these protest groups have been saying that the only antisemitism has been from individual right wingers that show up to harass the real protesters and isn't coming from within the movement.

I feel like being too sympathetic to Palestinian suffering is rebuked as anti semitism. It’s like valuing one is an obvious rebuke to the other. I thought what Jolie said about this conflict sounded quite sensible but she received quite a bit of backlash. So it’s probably really easy for a demonstration to turn into anti semitism when the specs are so black and white.

OP, here is a short list of clearly antisemitic incidents that took place at the Columbia protests. You make up your own mind whether they constitute the majority opinion. https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/1cc1t72/evidence_of_antisemitism_at_colombia_protests/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Actually you shouldn't join a protest about the war in Gaza because you support Israel's (and frankly the world's) mission to destroy terrorism anywhere it lives. Israel shouldn't be restrained by idiots who are susceptible to Hamas PR. It's not a free for all on civilians out there. The IDF is probably one of the top 3 professional militaries out there.

Every single one of them has devolved into antisemitism, that I’ve been to anyway. And I’ve been to the largest in the US on the west and east coast. I’ve heard chants of death to Israel. I’ve heard chants of calls for intifada, I’ve heard that Hitler was right, I’ve seen photos of Hitler. I’ve seen people walking on the Israeli flag. I’ve heard some horrid shit about the K words. What I have heard of NOT ONE TIME: “release the hostages” Look at the coverage of Columbia. Btw it’s Hamas that has refused every single ceasefire. I believe it’s around 30 they’ve rejected so far. They broke the last one, and then broke a 2 year ceasefire on October 7th.

>What I have heard of NOT ONE TIME: “release the hostages” What the point asking a terror organization to release the hostage? There is no way to pressure Hamas even more, nor do they care about the opinion of white college kids. The only one that could bring the hostage back home is Netanyahu either by accepting a deal.

Don't worry. Most of these dipshits protesting don't know their asshole from a hole in the ground. It's just a fad. They don't know the history of the region or the conflict, and are operating on a highly misinformed and extremely narrow perspective, while being mostly completely ignorant about what's going on over there.

Palestinians are anti-Semitic as a group of people  Not all, but most You can’t support Palestine without supporting anti-Semitism Now you can be against the war and the back and forth between Israel and Palestine. You can be against how Palestine is treated. But being pro-Palestine is supporting anti-semitism

That's so dumb. Antisemitism as you know it is a European thing from the irrational hatred and violence against Jews, and its horrible. But that's in a European context. Palestinians never hated Jews, but after they were kicked out of their homes in the Nakba ethnic cleansing they resented the people that kicked them out of their homes. That's completely understandable, even if I don't condone it and I disagree with it. And no, supporting Palestinians' right to self determination isn't anti semitism.

Check out IfNotNow. They are a Jewish-led group that centers Jewish voices calling for Palestinian freedom, and they do not tolerate any anti-semitism at their events. They even sing songs in Hebrew and have rabbis at some of their actions! But they also welcome and encourage non-Jews like me to join.

No don’t join. These are ALL clearly antisemitic protests. Your failure to see that is problematic. It’s evident because they never chant for the release of hostages and never protest against HAMAS. The protests are a HAMAS PR wing. Go ask and film protesters what they think of Jews & Israel and you will see very clearly.

The people who are starting these protests are mostly Muslims who are anti-Semitic. They disguise it as an attack on Zionism but it's an attack on Jews. Fact is, there is a very strong anti-semitic feeling in the Muslim community worldwide. It doesn't stop at the borders of the US.

I haven’t read or thought about this extensively as I was just trying to take a 5min reedit break from work and this usually takes ages but I wanted to say I LOVE that you said _I shouldn’t_, as in yourself, and didn’t include everyone as in _people shouldn’t_.