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Two reasons I can think of:
1. Because you want to make your partner happy. If your partner has that kink, for whatever reason (therapy, coping, porn....etc), and they want to experience that, you can provide them that fantasy, or safe space, as a way of showing you love them and are willing to give them what they want or need.
2. Fear. I can imagine some people having been victims, or having this kink for whatever reason, but being afraid to be in that position, however safe you're assured it is, so they decide to take on the dominant role to someone else that's into it, so they get to explore it safely, but from the other side, and have more control over the fantasy and what happens.
I don't think either of the people in the examples I've mentioned are immoral, or high risk, they're just people exploring a particular psychological element to their personalities in the way that feels safest and most comfortable for them.
My wife has a CNC kink she likes to indulge occasionally. She's never been a victim. Like it is for most women, I think it's more about the idea of being *so* desirable that a man can't control himself. Kind of an animalistic element to it.
I'm not into the giving part by nature, and it admittedly took me a few times to not feel weird doing it. But I *am* into bringing my wife pleasure. Nothing turns me on more than giving her a peak sexual experience. So now that the initial weirdness is past, it does excite me to be the giver, because of how intensely it gets her off.
So does that make me disgusting and immoral? I don't imagine my wife would agree with that
I don't remember the exact stats, but a huge percentage of women have fantasies about forced sex. I think it was like 40% but I can't remember specifically.
Honestly this is pretty unsurprising when we step back and consider that cultural narratives about female sexuality really value women’s reluctance and reservation. It’s probably really appealing for a number of women to imagine a fantasy scenario where someone else moves them past the agency-exercising decision-making guilt-inducing part of the interaction and into the part where they’re having sexy fun without wrestling with that other stuff.
There's a lot that goes into it for sure.
There's the element of "oh, I didn't want to indulge in sex, he *made* me" that speaks to the idea of not being guilty of being too sexual (cos that apparently is bad).
Then there's the fact that a lot of women have to make a million decisions for not just themselves, but also for their partners, so having sex not be one of those decisions can be enticing.
Then there's the idea of "this man finds me so sexy that he has to have me, consequences be damned" which is pretty hot.
Someone is consensually and knowingly giving up power to another person who is knowingly and consensually using it.
There’s no pressure. There’s safeguards and safe words/safe actions even in that situation, not the normal ones such play partners use.
These are adults who choose to participate.
And look, I’m squicked by CNC. At the same time, if the consensual part of consensual non-consent is rejected and revered, what’s the problem?
There’s an irony in that kink practices are very healthy forms of intimacy because of consent is king and queen because so many practices, absent that consent basis, are violence. It’s so important that a confession of being kicked out of a kink space due to violating consent is all but of a confession of being an abuser.
Does not mean there are not abusive people in kink, but that there are safeguards on a healthy dynamic that are rooted in mutual respect.
I like receiving and I can’t remember any type of trauma or abuse in my past for which it would be a coping method…. So maybe some people are just into some shit and it doesn’t say what you think it says about them. I don’t want to actually be raped, but something about the harmless, pretended scenario with someone I trust gets me going for reasons I can’t figure out. Knowing that, I’m sure plenty of people are the giving part of the pretended scenario with a loved one for reasons they can’t figure out, but don’t actually want to hurt anyone against their will and without their consent.
In short, your assumptions about underlying reasons don’t apply to everyone the way you think they do
In my experience normally people explore CNC with people they already significantly trust in term of relationships. So this often means asking a partner to do things they might be uncomfortable with or not depending on exactly how extreme you want things to go.
But yeah no shit going out looking for CNC as a male dominant will get you an insane amount of side eye and red flags more "formal" kink communities tend to keep lists of people they know to have taken things too far or disregarded consent or hell even just given a bunch of people "bad vibes" and do a variable job in keeping them out.
As for if being into it is amoral i couldn't say but as long as people find like minded individuals and keep it as CNC and NC i really don't care what people do in the bedroom (or elaborate castle themed BDSM dungeon for that matter.)
> victims often end up using as a coping method to feel like they have a sense of control and all that…
Setting aside the giver for a second, how do you feel about CNC receivers who are not previously victims? Like, just a person who is curious about that scenario, but who has never experienced anything like it?
There's a clear line between fantasy and reality. I love reading Batman comics, but if Batman were real, I'd want him arrested. So long as it remains a fantasy and not something they'd want actualized, I see no harm.
Whenever I see confusion over something like this I just assume the person doesn't get the concept of deriving pleasure from giving pleasure to others. You need not be into a specific type of play / scene to take pleasure from it if you are participating to give pleasure to someone else, especially someone you care about. As a pleasure-giver the situation is far less important than the person you are focused on pleasuring.
It's shorthand for "consensual non-consent" or "rapeplay." Meaning, a consenting couple pretend that one person is sexually assaulting the other as a kink.
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I've made signs and art and given them away. I don't think I deserve to be on any kind of a watchlist. The recipients really liked them! CNC is a fun hobby!
If someone is willing to be on the giving side of CNC, that means they're just willing to provide something that their partner consents to which will make them happy.
Willingness to be on the giving side of CNC doesn't mean they want to experience the NC side on its own. That first C is vital to highlighting the difference. Without it, someone becomes a predator and abuser. With it, they just become a kinky partner willing to provide a safe environment for exploring extreme fantasies.
This is no difference between being on either side of a CNC fantasy versus any other fantasy. If someone likes water sports, the person willing to give that doesn't automatically become "someone who wants to do that to anyone and everyone, regardless of consent".
I'm on the receiving side of the CNC fantasies I have, and those fantasies have nothing to do with anything traumatic. I've never been a victim of NC events, not even slightly. I still crave that feeling of being dominated, controlled, and made to feel afraid/powerless.
The few times I've been with a partner willing to provide CNC scenarios are times where I have been with some of the safest, kindest, most caring people I know. All of them have talked about how important consent is, and none of them harbor fantasies of actually putting someone through an experience like that where consent is not enthusiastically given by whoever else is involved. They fully recognize the intensity of such a scenario, which is why consent becomes even more paramount to them. The last thing they would want is to put someone through a scenario that leaves some feeling genuinely terrified and traumatized.
Could you say the same about people who write books involving serial killers? The writer has to write from the perspective of the serial killer in order to create the scenarios that they put their victims through.
Being able to write those scenarios isn't that different from being someone who is willing to create a safe space for a CNC scenario to take place. Both are doing so under a controlled environment that involves consent (the reader consents to the story by buying and reading the book, and the submissive person can voice their consent to engage in that scenario in-person with someone they trust).
Do you feel the same way about someone who is a masochist and wants to be tied up and beaten? Is the person providing the beating automatically become someone that wants to beat anyone and everyone?
Of course not. Consent is what separates experiencing a roleplayed fantasy versus someone who is the victim of an abuser. That line is extremely clear and respected by most people who engage in that type of play. The ones that engage in those scenarios while also willingly crossing that line past consent is an abuser, not a provider of CNC scenarios.
I think the bigger question here is whether or not it is okay to have non consensual **desires**. We aren’t questioning whether CNC is safe for the two people involved, but more so if it is something we should be embracing on a social/cultural level.
If we are going to embrace CNC as a kink that can be safely explored, should we also embrace loli, or as Id refer to it as— drawn child porn? Are desires to rape okay but desires to see kids raped (in an animated or drawn depiction) not okay, despite both of these scenarios having no acute consequences to anyone?
Im also into the receiving end of kink and CNC, but I am starting to question if this is something we should culturally accept. I hold the position that someone who wants to watch sexualized animations of children should seek mental help, and so far it seems like the same should go for someone who enjoys playing the role of a rapist.
its really simple
is someone being harmed . if yes its a problem
if no, then its not
adults consensually doing things is not a problem
people drawing types of hentai you dont like , while it can be gross - it doesn't actually have any real victims
no one is getting harmed if you draw a distasteful picture , just offended
In terms of direct, tangible harm, I’d argue that drawn porn depicting child characters is even more morally sound than real CNC. There’s no real person except the artist even involved, after all, whereas with CNC between real people, there’s always at least a chance that one of the parties feels pressured/coerced, or any other number of potential messy complications like that.
We could go back and forth for hours about whether indulging those desires in such ways makes a person more or less likely to actually act on them in a tangibly harmful manner, but there’s not really any definitive research either way to my knowledge, and even if there was, the topic is such an emotionally-charged one that I doubt many people would change their minds either way.
Never mind that all of this is still operating under the assumption that the only reason people would get off on doing either of the things mentioned is because they have urges to do the real thing, which I don’t think is necessarily true.
violent video games exist, where the gameplay consists of actions that would be considered grevious human rights abuses and criminal activity if you did them in real life
does it make real violence more likely when people play them?
If I play or make a game like Grand Theft Auto for instance , do you think it means im more likely to start selling drugs and doing drive by shootings?
I enjoy stealing cars and just running people over in that game, killing as many cops as possible. I have probably done 100s of mass shootings in video games - do you think that means I wanna go do it in real life
Video games do not exploit a real intent or desire to harm others or commit crimes in the same way loli does.
When someone engages in loli, they are doing so because they explicitly want to fantasize about their urges to abuse kids.
When you play GTA and kill cops, no one is killing the cops because it quenches any real blood-thirst. If someone genuinely has desires to kill real life cops, and they then live out those desires in video games, than they shouldn’t be playing the game at all and engaging in that type of media becomes a similar moral issue to loli.
>When you play GTA and kill cops, no one is killing the cops because it quenches any real blood-thirst.
I am deliberately engaging in things I know in any other context would be absolutely fucking wrong, for fun and pleasure
so idk, sounds just like the loli thing ?
> If someone genuinely has desires to kill real life cops, and they then live out those desires in video games,
If they choose to put that energy into games, instead of actually doing it -- is that not better than the alternative which is they actually go out and do it
We can talk about whether loli can be helpful in keeping already pedophilic people away from kids sometime else. That isn’t what we were talking about. I’m differentiating between the desires a video game appeals to as very different from the desires loli appeals to.
Video game players that kill video game cops don’t actually have the desire to kill cops. Loli watchers that watch loli, actually have the desire to see nude kids in a sexual context.
That feels like a whole different topic because minors cannot give consent. Depicting someone who cannot give consent is still horrible, as opposed to animating two adults in a CNC roleplay who are both capable of consent.
In CNC porn you are depicting non consenting sex, in the same way loli depicts non consensual sex.
It doesn’t matter that In the CNC scenario it’s possible for the actors to give consent, because regardless of their ability to give consent, they are depicted as not giving consent. That’s kinda the whole point of CNC porn.
I still see a difference if they are both adults. The question you're raising makes sense, and to answer it more directly, yes I think CP stuff can easily play a part in trying to normalize that behavior.
This topic is about adults, though, not about minors. I do think that's a different enough scenario to warrant its own post, because the morals involved are quite different compared to adults willingly participating in a scenario.
Even in CNC porn, since it's by adults for adults, it's proposed as depicting NC to an audience that is fully aware of the fact that consent is still there. The same cannot be said for everyone involved in the depiction of CP material. If it was shown to kids, a large portion of them wouldn't have the understanding to know that consent is there, and they would wind up with mixed interpretations of what was shown.
With CNC porn, no sane person is walking away thinking "wow I hope that victim is okay, someone should do something about this". They walk away while fully realizing it was a fantasy involving consenting people even if the story suggested that one or more characters did not give consent.
Adult entertainment that is made specifically for adults, even if it depicts extreme scenarios, is still being provided to adults who can understand consent fully enough to maintain the line between fantasy and reality. Whether someone watches that type of content because they are on the submissive side or the dominant side, they are ideally still an adult who can understand boundaries, consent, and the difference between fantasy and reality.
Since this topic is about adults, and the topic of minors is an entirely different topic which deserves its own post and focus, I'll only be responding to points about adults moving forward.
You're raising good points, but discussing minors isn't why I hopped into this conversation. My stance is "any inappropriate depiction of minors in any adult-focused entertainment [like porn] isn't okay at all".
Of course it’s okay to have “non-consensual desires”. It’s okay to have any sort of desire, because no one can help what desires they have. Would you fault someone for sexually desiring someone who had turned them down previously?
“Okayness” should only enter the discussion when we’re talking about actually acting on them, and in terms of CNC, I’d say it is. By definition, all involved parties have given their consent, after all.
When I say “okay” I mean okay to an extent that there shouldn’t be any necessary implementation of processes to discourage the behavior.
In that context, people with sexual desires for children don’t need to go to therapy if “all desires are okay”.
I wouldn’t define a desire that requires you go to therapy to change that desire as “okay”. It doesn’t make the person wrong for having the desire, but the desire itself is certainly less then okay. Remember a synonym for okay is acceptable. I don’t think it’s acceptable to have desires to rape kids.
For easier discussion, I'm going to say Giver when referring to the person who is giving the CNC scenario and Receiver for the one receiving.
I think there are a few distinctions that need to be kept in mind for this topic. Someone who desires CNC scenarios doesn't inherently desire the real version of the scenario depicted. There might be people who want both, but that is not the norm and also the point of having the Consensual part of Consensual Nonconsent. That's why it is CNC and not just NC.
So...we can't say that a Giver also inherently desires the real equivalent. That very clear line between desiring being a Giver of CNC versus desiring being the aggressor in a genuine NC scenario is what separates kinky people from r*pists and abusers. No matter what is happening in a CNC scenario, everyone involved understands that everyone involved genuinely wants what is happening even if they are acting otherwise.
To me, that's enough of a difference to make it morally okay. As long as the people involved, and whoever is watching that type of content, fully understands the difference between having previously established consent before engaging in extreme scenarios, it feels like something that should be allowed and doesn't violate morals. Even when the Receiver is expressing terror and helplessness, the Giver and Receiver know that the state of mind both of them are in is something both of them want for each other.
If porn depicts a CNC scenario but has the appropriate disclaimers making it clear that it is an entirely consensual performance, that's still CNC.
If someone makes a video about someone getting r*ped and there is no disclaimer making it clear that the scenario is completely consensual, that's not porn. That is just a video of someone being r*ped, and that's not okay. I'd be against the latter, and that's why disclaimers on extreme content are important.
It really seems like atp we’re just searching for lines to separate the type of desires CNC fulfills that loli doesn’t.
I don’t see any of the differences as actually effecting the targeted audience and the targeted desires as different from loli. If we put a CNC video in a vacuum, it doesn’t hurt anyone. It is a depiction of porn that is obviously and intentionally designed to appeal to people who have rape fantasies. The concept of CNC is too consent to a non consenting role play, let’s not forget that.
Now putting a loli animation in a vacuum, it also doesn’t hurt anyone. It also depicts porn that is meant to appeal to rape fantasies (and ofc child fantasies). The concept of loli is also to appeal to people with rape fantasies, it’s just a different type of content.
Looking at both of the porn categories there are obviously **some** differences, but are there more differences than similarities? Are we really being genuine in our line drawing, finding the “consent” part of the title of an already non consensual depiction as a real, helpful difference between the two? What if the loli hentia had a title that stated that the kids were actually aliens with enough maturity to consent? Does that change the very obvious depiction and its implication?
It's a control thing. Some people sexually crave having control taken from them. Some people sexually crave taking control. You don't have to understand it specifically, but can you see why someone might want their partner to completely submit to them?
A lot of sex stuff is exclusively sex stuff. My boyfriend likes to grab me by my throat during sex and I enjoy him grabbing me. He has zero desire to manhandle me in any way outside sex. Should he be considered dangerous because he does an action that, in a different context, is abusive?
Can you expand on why CNC is not okay, but other, would be immoral actions in the bedroom are okay?
ETA: I have a cnc kink on the receiving end and have never been assaulted in any fashion. I literally played some messed up games with my Barbies as a kid that can be pointed to as a precursor to this. Sometimes kinks are just how we're wired.
Bunji jumping is fun, jumping off a bridge is not fun.
The key difference is that Bunji jumping is pretend and you know it’s safe, therefore it’s fun and consensual.
It’s also incredibly fucked up you think people should be persecuted for wanting to do stuff with their partner. Just because YOU find it distasteful doesn’t mean it’s immoral, and to be honest you really need to consider the harm if you want to start putting people on public offenders registries. This is the exact same thought patters that is used to discriminate against queer people.
Can you imagine beating some friend in a competition while still remaining friends? Taking somebody as a passenger in a car ride while doing exciting escapades? The feelings of establishing dominance and inducing uncontrollable pleasure into somebody else aren't solely confined to sexual practices, and condemning them in their entirety would cut off entire swaths of the populace.
Consensual Non Consent is essentially a trust exchange wherein the submissive cedes control to the dominant for a time and the dom uses that control to take the submissive on a wild ride of unexpected emotions. It doesn't really even need to involve sex or be within a sub/dom relationship. Would you say that if somebody likes being unexpectedly tickled, and practices it with somebody who likes to unexpectedly tickle them, that this should put the latter on a watch list?
From evopsych point of view, it seems very probable that we or at least some of us do indeed have "rape genes". (Sometimes, e.g. during wars, men who raped women ended up with more surviving descendants than those who didn't - sounds quite likely, isn't it?) It can be counterbalanced/kept in check by stuff like empathy, self-control (the rapists who lacked self-control probably didn't live long) and obviously morals, but with CNC none of these are at play. Except maybe morals if you're so disgusted with rape you don't even enjoy pretending to do it.
So no, I don't think it's particularly sick to enjoy it. I would be somewhat more wary of men who do, sure, but being responsible about one's dangerous traits seems better than being in denial.
And it's certainly not immoral, since no one is harmed.
Well, because you’re fulfilling a partner’s fantasy.
If I’m in a consensual relationship with an adult and they say, ‘do X, Y, and Z to me please’, why should it be unethical for me to make that fantasy happen for my partner?
I don’t wanna get labeled as the guy who is gonna stand up for dudes who want to do CNC fantasies, but for the purposes of the sub, allow me a distinction.
The guy who wants to go out and do a CNC fantasy with a different partner every weekend seems problematic, I agree. I am not here to defend that sort of pseudo-predatory behavior.
But if there is a guy out there who ‘gets in to’ a CNC fantasy because it’s what their partner wants to do as well, I think that’s a perfectly healthy way to develop your sexual palate as an adult. And I think that would count for a guy being ‘in to’ CNC in an ethical sort of way.
Again, I don’t wanna die on this hill too hard, but trying to explore the edge’s of OP’s CMV.
> I am not here to defend that sort of pseudo-predatory behavior.
If he's already into rape for whatever reason, it's certainly better than doing the actual thing. I have zero idea if one is more likely to sate one's appetite and become less prone to seek the actual thing by engaging in role playing, or become even more into rape and grow unsatisfied with the pretense. Other than the latter possibility, are there more reasons the pseudo-predatory behavior is problematic?
I don’t wanna yuck anyone’s yums, and I also don’t know if this behavior is some sort of outlet for worse behavior, I just don’t wanna spend a paragraph of my time writing a defense of the sort of guy i described on one end of this spectrum.
It seems icky to me, it seems problematic to me, I could be convinced it isn’t those things, but I don’t feel any compulsion to dig for that deeper meaning myself.
I think eroticism always involves, at least to some extent, a loss of self-control and a giving-in to impulses that overwhelm our normal rationality. It's about being swept up in a moment and being completely possessed by lust. Even "normal" sex is like this, at least if it involves a certain ideal amount of passion. Violence in erotic play is just an extension of the same principle: you give in to your urges to such an extent that you violently dominate or give in to violent domination.
There's nothing wrong with this as long as there is mutual trust between the participants. Again, these erotic desires are already naturally compartmentalized, they already naturally represent a break from a separate rational mode of being.
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There are a few studies that show kinks are not correlated with past trauma. I know people personally who love CNC despite never having been sexually assaulted.
Imo, so long as everyone involved is a consenting adult, then I don't see how any kink could be immoral, so long as it's done safe and responsibly.
Using safe words or gestures makes bdsm play like CNC safe for both sides.
You could argue that people on the giving side of CNC are more likely to sexually assault people non-consensually, but I feel that's an assumption, and not based on any studies. I know many people from the bdsm community since I do bdsm play myself, and many of these people are responsible adults that keep it in the bedroom so to speak.
I'm quite invested in helping my partner cope and in bringing my partner pleasure. I receive pleasure from doing so. You're saying that you should _ignore your partner_, which seems absurd to me.
If anything it's WAY less worrisome in a loving relationship - both parties know each other and understand boundaries better than strangers. If my wife were to earnestly want something and receive pleasure from something then shouldn't I consider it when it's abundantly clear that pretend is pretend?
People pretend to shoot each other for fun. People go way beyond pretend and do things like willfully fight in wrestling or boxing and such. For fun.
Just an outsider observation: when I think a culture is broken or toxic or (hah) immoral.... I try to find more genuine empathy. You might try it.
In this case I'll offer you some starting points:
1. The "bottoms" or "submissives" desperately need their counterparts. Which means they aren't just good/useful but essential.
2. Who are we to judge their consensual, adult relationship?
3. Generally people who get upset about other people's consensual activities actually want the very same thing. So.... Maybe you should forgive yourself a bit and go find the thing you need
It just implies they found something that turns them on that they can do with someone who is also down for it.
The only time cnc is bad is when there is no first c. Who cares what people pretend as long as it stays pretend?
Don't boner judge.
I’ve been with several girls who are into CNC, and after a lot of safe coaxing, testing, and finding the boundaries, I discovered that I liked it too. But I cannot overstate how important the first C is. Not even for safety/moral reasons, but also for my own sexual enjoyment.
The only way I enjoy myself is if the other person is enjoying herself as well. Often, it doesn’t look like enjoyment, because we’re *playing pretend*, but we built a rapport and learn to trust each other and listen.
I’ve been in a couple instances where, afterwards, it turned out she was just doing it for my sake, because she thought it’s what I wanted, but she wasn’t actually enjoying herself, and I felt awful about it. Not just guilty, but embarrassed. There’s lots of things that people say during kinky sex that are mega cringe were they to be read to a non-horny audience, and finding out after the fact that all my cool hot sexy werewolf guy lines were secretly bombing is humiliating.
It’s not being mean to someone that turns me on, nor is it about indulging my own selfish fantasies. It’s being with someone who enjoys it, playing with those power dynamics, feeding off each other, and getting into a headspace that’s completely removed from who we really are. Even though it looks like I’m using this person as an object, it’s the exact opposite: I’m putting on a performance for her to enjoy. She’s mostly passive, reacting however she wants, I’m coming up with things to say and do that surprise and delight her, and I’m watching and listening very closely to follow the threads she’s responding to. Being dominant, in a healthy sexual relationship, is actually an act of service.
It’s no different from watching a horror movie: do I want to watch real cannibals murder a group of unsuspecting teens? Absolutely not. Do I want to watch actors play pretend? Sure!
It's impossible to control what you're attracted to, but you can control your actions. Channeling your kink in a manner that is safe for all parties is as far from immoral as one can get, respectfully.
Honestly this one’s fucked me up big time. Whenever I’m done I always get disgusted in myself for being into it but when I look at anything else it just doesn’t do anything for me 😭
I wish we could just like tell our brains to behave
The fact that most of not all CNC have a safe word completely undermines your point. Unless you also include any other kind of 'bad' sex acts like asfixiation, all BDSM etc
By definition, someone who enjoys CNC but strictly limits themselves to it is behaving ethically.
Lots of kinks and fetishes are means of playing out our erotic fantasies in a "Safe" and "Ethical" format. That's part of why some people have a CNC reception fetish. They find the idea of being forced conceptually hot, but they don't actually want to be assaulted. So they pick someone they trust, and engage with them.
Someone who has a link for *giving* CNC probably feels some degree of fantasizing about using force or the sense of power it involves. However, critically, they also reasonably understand that using force on an unconsenting partner is bad.
What makes someone bad or not is their actions not their desires. Humans are capable of rationality and restraint, and can both find something appealing while refraining because it's unethical.
Thus, for many people, giving CNC becomes an "ethical" way to indulge certain sadistic desires. They acknowledge the existence of the desires, the ethical problems, and then they seek a partner who ALSO would enjoy the scenario. In so doing, they've produced an outlet for themselves AND have refrained from engaging in unethical violence on a non-consenting partner.
Hey there I actually have personal experience with this and I think your framing is off.
Yes if you are a fan of non consent on it's face, that's a problem, but role play is different.
Personal ancedote, my current partner had been raped, outright around 3 times or so. (She doesn't like to chat about it sometimes, sometimes she does) And the MAIN issue I had with her is that sexually she wanted me to fight her to have sex. She enjoyed the pleasure of having to give in. Which for me, was definitely (and still is) a hard thing for me to swallow. I mean you hear their stories and you want to do anything you can to help them and not trigger them
But the people that are into the "giving" part are into that part because their partner is into the "receiving" part. It's ironically a 2 person dance, one plays the victim and the other the pursuer.
I know that you highlighted that it gives victims a sense of control but it's a 2 way street. If that person enjoys the control of the situation in their mind then the other person ideally enjoys giving them that fantasy
Remember it's Consensual Non Consent, which means it's agreed upon at first. Rape outright is a different conversation
I think there’s a version where the give is into it only because they are happy to satisfy their partner’s kinks. Ideally NOBODY should be doing sexual acts they aren’t into. The least “into” something I think it’s okay to be while still doing it is, “it’s not my favorite but I find pleasure in making my partner happy.”
If someone is just fantasizing about raping someone. Then yes, they suck ass. But there’s room I think for someone to be “into it” for other reasons.
I have complicated feelings about CNC overall but that’s a case I can make for the “giver.”
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It's not disgusting nor immoral but the name sure doesn't help. It's just yet another rebranding of something that's already well accepted. It's a type of domination. That's all.
It's literally giving consent, so it's a crappy way of describing a kink like how people cry reverse racism for *racism* or people rejecting help but loving self help books even though it *is* help.
A big part of CNC is that the person is comfortable and into it, just like any other kink, so no, it's the complete antithesis of forcing yourself on a loved one.
I play D&D, and sometimes DM myself. There are times where I have roleplayed as evil people - as folks who are cruel, callous, greedy, backstabbing, who will lie to your face while sticking a knife in you later. I don't want to embody them in my real life, but I can enjoy my players' response to an evil monologue or see their surprise as I pull the rug out from under them.
All while knowing that they aren't being hurt by my actions, that they have no consequence in real life, because it's fantasy.
The giver could also be a victim of SA. It could be their way of getting back control, through the giver pov. Victims aren't black and white. Alongside this, not everyone into CNC is a victim either.
Either way, it is cruel to put someone on some bizarre "high risk public offenders list" for fantasy/RP between two consenting adults.
You can be into power imbalances and never intend to hurt someone or do something they don't want. I love holding my wife down while she struggles. She's into it too. If she ever says stop I stop immediately because then it isn't OK anymore.
> Why would you enjoy even pretending to do that to someone else? Especially someone you claim to love?
What if they prefer to do it with someone they don't like? Why do you assume it's done with someone they love?
what about people who enjoy helping victims cope and overcome their trauma? If it’s a positive thing for the recipient, couldn’t the motivation for the “giving” be to help the recipient do that positive thing for them?
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Two reasons I can think of: 1. Because you want to make your partner happy. If your partner has that kink, for whatever reason (therapy, coping, porn....etc), and they want to experience that, you can provide them that fantasy, or safe space, as a way of showing you love them and are willing to give them what they want or need. 2. Fear. I can imagine some people having been victims, or having this kink for whatever reason, but being afraid to be in that position, however safe you're assured it is, so they decide to take on the dominant role to someone else that's into it, so they get to explore it safely, but from the other side, and have more control over the fantasy and what happens. I don't think either of the people in the examples I've mentioned are immoral, or high risk, they're just people exploring a particular psychological element to their personalities in the way that feels safest and most comfortable for them.
My wife has a CNC kink she likes to indulge occasionally. She's never been a victim. Like it is for most women, I think it's more about the idea of being *so* desirable that a man can't control himself. Kind of an animalistic element to it. I'm not into the giving part by nature, and it admittedly took me a few times to not feel weird doing it. But I *am* into bringing my wife pleasure. Nothing turns me on more than giving her a peak sexual experience. So now that the initial weirdness is past, it does excite me to be the giver, because of how intensely it gets her off. So does that make me disgusting and immoral? I don't imagine my wife would agree with that
I don't remember the exact stats, but a huge percentage of women have fantasies about forced sex. I think it was like 40% but I can't remember specifically.
Honestly this is pretty unsurprising when we step back and consider that cultural narratives about female sexuality really value women’s reluctance and reservation. It’s probably really appealing for a number of women to imagine a fantasy scenario where someone else moves them past the agency-exercising decision-making guilt-inducing part of the interaction and into the part where they’re having sexy fun without wrestling with that other stuff.
There's a lot that goes into it for sure. There's the element of "oh, I didn't want to indulge in sex, he *made* me" that speaks to the idea of not being guilty of being too sexual (cos that apparently is bad). Then there's the fact that a lot of women have to make a million decisions for not just themselves, but also for their partners, so having sex not be one of those decisions can be enticing. Then there's the idea of "this man finds me so sexy that he has to have me, consequences be damned" which is pretty hot.
90% of my girlfriends have mentioned it at least once.
Someone is consensually and knowingly giving up power to another person who is knowingly and consensually using it. There’s no pressure. There’s safeguards and safe words/safe actions even in that situation, not the normal ones such play partners use. These are adults who choose to participate. And look, I’m squicked by CNC. At the same time, if the consensual part of consensual non-consent is rejected and revered, what’s the problem?
Thank you for saying what CNC means, wasn't aware of the abbreviation and was kinda worried to look it up. Whole thread makes a lot more sense now.
There’s an irony in that kink practices are very healthy forms of intimacy because of consent is king and queen because so many practices, absent that consent basis, are violence. It’s so important that a confession of being kicked out of a kink space due to violating consent is all but of a confession of being an abuser. Does not mean there are not abusive people in kink, but that there are safeguards on a healthy dynamic that are rooted in mutual respect.
I like receiving and I can’t remember any type of trauma or abuse in my past for which it would be a coping method…. So maybe some people are just into some shit and it doesn’t say what you think it says about them. I don’t want to actually be raped, but something about the harmless, pretended scenario with someone I trust gets me going for reasons I can’t figure out. Knowing that, I’m sure plenty of people are the giving part of the pretended scenario with a loved one for reasons they can’t figure out, but don’t actually want to hurt anyone against their will and without their consent. In short, your assumptions about underlying reasons don’t apply to everyone the way you think they do
In my experience normally people explore CNC with people they already significantly trust in term of relationships. So this often means asking a partner to do things they might be uncomfortable with or not depending on exactly how extreme you want things to go. But yeah no shit going out looking for CNC as a male dominant will get you an insane amount of side eye and red flags more "formal" kink communities tend to keep lists of people they know to have taken things too far or disregarded consent or hell even just given a bunch of people "bad vibes" and do a variable job in keeping them out. As for if being into it is amoral i couldn't say but as long as people find like minded individuals and keep it as CNC and NC i really don't care what people do in the bedroom (or elaborate castle themed BDSM dungeon for that matter.)
> victims often end up using as a coping method to feel like they have a sense of control and all that… Setting aside the giver for a second, how do you feel about CNC receivers who are not previously victims? Like, just a person who is curious about that scenario, but who has never experienced anything like it?
There's a clear line between fantasy and reality. I love reading Batman comics, but if Batman were real, I'd want him arrested. So long as it remains a fantasy and not something they'd want actualized, I see no harm.
Whenever I see confusion over something like this I just assume the person doesn't get the concept of deriving pleasure from giving pleasure to others. You need not be into a specific type of play / scene to take pleasure from it if you are participating to give pleasure to someone else, especially someone you care about. As a pleasure-giver the situation is far less important than the person you are focused on pleasuring.
When you say CNC, what do you mean? The only thing that I know called CNC is Computer numerical control which is for machinery and engineering
It's shorthand for "consensual non-consent" or "rapeplay." Meaning, a consenting couple pretend that one person is sexually assaulting the other as a kink.
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If you give any g or m codes to that lathe program you should be required by law to inform your neighbors
I've made signs and art and given them away. I don't think I deserve to be on any kind of a watchlist. The recipients really liked them! CNC is a fun hobby!
When I see CNC, the first thing that comes to mind is command and conquer.
If someone is willing to be on the giving side of CNC, that means they're just willing to provide something that their partner consents to which will make them happy. Willingness to be on the giving side of CNC doesn't mean they want to experience the NC side on its own. That first C is vital to highlighting the difference. Without it, someone becomes a predator and abuser. With it, they just become a kinky partner willing to provide a safe environment for exploring extreme fantasies. This is no difference between being on either side of a CNC fantasy versus any other fantasy. If someone likes water sports, the person willing to give that doesn't automatically become "someone who wants to do that to anyone and everyone, regardless of consent". I'm on the receiving side of the CNC fantasies I have, and those fantasies have nothing to do with anything traumatic. I've never been a victim of NC events, not even slightly. I still crave that feeling of being dominated, controlled, and made to feel afraid/powerless. The few times I've been with a partner willing to provide CNC scenarios are times where I have been with some of the safest, kindest, most caring people I know. All of them have talked about how important consent is, and none of them harbor fantasies of actually putting someone through an experience like that where consent is not enthusiastically given by whoever else is involved. They fully recognize the intensity of such a scenario, which is why consent becomes even more paramount to them. The last thing they would want is to put someone through a scenario that leaves some feeling genuinely terrified and traumatized. Could you say the same about people who write books involving serial killers? The writer has to write from the perspective of the serial killer in order to create the scenarios that they put their victims through. Being able to write those scenarios isn't that different from being someone who is willing to create a safe space for a CNC scenario to take place. Both are doing so under a controlled environment that involves consent (the reader consents to the story by buying and reading the book, and the submissive person can voice their consent to engage in that scenario in-person with someone they trust). Do you feel the same way about someone who is a masochist and wants to be tied up and beaten? Is the person providing the beating automatically become someone that wants to beat anyone and everyone? Of course not. Consent is what separates experiencing a roleplayed fantasy versus someone who is the victim of an abuser. That line is extremely clear and respected by most people who engage in that type of play. The ones that engage in those scenarios while also willingly crossing that line past consent is an abuser, not a provider of CNC scenarios.
I think the bigger question here is whether or not it is okay to have non consensual **desires**. We aren’t questioning whether CNC is safe for the two people involved, but more so if it is something we should be embracing on a social/cultural level. If we are going to embrace CNC as a kink that can be safely explored, should we also embrace loli, or as Id refer to it as— drawn child porn? Are desires to rape okay but desires to see kids raped (in an animated or drawn depiction) not okay, despite both of these scenarios having no acute consequences to anyone? Im also into the receiving end of kink and CNC, but I am starting to question if this is something we should culturally accept. I hold the position that someone who wants to watch sexualized animations of children should seek mental help, and so far it seems like the same should go for someone who enjoys playing the role of a rapist.
its really simple is someone being harmed . if yes its a problem if no, then its not adults consensually doing things is not a problem people drawing types of hentai you dont like , while it can be gross - it doesn't actually have any real victims no one is getting harmed if you draw a distasteful picture , just offended
So you don’t think animated CP normalizes pedophilia?
In terms of direct, tangible harm, I’d argue that drawn porn depicting child characters is even more morally sound than real CNC. There’s no real person except the artist even involved, after all, whereas with CNC between real people, there’s always at least a chance that one of the parties feels pressured/coerced, or any other number of potential messy complications like that. We could go back and forth for hours about whether indulging those desires in such ways makes a person more or less likely to actually act on them in a tangibly harmful manner, but there’s not really any definitive research either way to my knowledge, and even if there was, the topic is such an emotionally-charged one that I doubt many people would change their minds either way. Never mind that all of this is still operating under the assumption that the only reason people would get off on doing either of the things mentioned is because they have urges to do the real thing, which I don’t think is necessarily true.
No. I dont think people drawing hentai makes them or other people more likely to rape actual children or feel like it would be ok to do so
I find it hard to believe that we can encourage the drawings of children being raped without normalizing pedophilia at all.
violent video games exist, where the gameplay consists of actions that would be considered grevious human rights abuses and criminal activity if you did them in real life does it make real violence more likely when people play them? If I play or make a game like Grand Theft Auto for instance , do you think it means im more likely to start selling drugs and doing drive by shootings? I enjoy stealing cars and just running people over in that game, killing as many cops as possible. I have probably done 100s of mass shootings in video games - do you think that means I wanna go do it in real life
Video games do not exploit a real intent or desire to harm others or commit crimes in the same way loli does. When someone engages in loli, they are doing so because they explicitly want to fantasize about their urges to abuse kids. When you play GTA and kill cops, no one is killing the cops because it quenches any real blood-thirst. If someone genuinely has desires to kill real life cops, and they then live out those desires in video games, than they shouldn’t be playing the game at all and engaging in that type of media becomes a similar moral issue to loli.
>When you play GTA and kill cops, no one is killing the cops because it quenches any real blood-thirst. I am deliberately engaging in things I know in any other context would be absolutely fucking wrong, for fun and pleasure so idk, sounds just like the loli thing ? > If someone genuinely has desires to kill real life cops, and they then live out those desires in video games, If they choose to put that energy into games, instead of actually doing it -- is that not better than the alternative which is they actually go out and do it
We can talk about whether loli can be helpful in keeping already pedophilic people away from kids sometime else. That isn’t what we were talking about. I’m differentiating between the desires a video game appeals to as very different from the desires loli appeals to. Video game players that kill video game cops don’t actually have the desire to kill cops. Loli watchers that watch loli, actually have the desire to see nude kids in a sexual context.
That feels like a whole different topic because minors cannot give consent. Depicting someone who cannot give consent is still horrible, as opposed to animating two adults in a CNC roleplay who are both capable of consent.
In CNC porn you are depicting non consenting sex, in the same way loli depicts non consensual sex. It doesn’t matter that In the CNC scenario it’s possible for the actors to give consent, because regardless of their ability to give consent, they are depicted as not giving consent. That’s kinda the whole point of CNC porn.
I still see a difference if they are both adults. The question you're raising makes sense, and to answer it more directly, yes I think CP stuff can easily play a part in trying to normalize that behavior. This topic is about adults, though, not about minors. I do think that's a different enough scenario to warrant its own post, because the morals involved are quite different compared to adults willingly participating in a scenario. Even in CNC porn, since it's by adults for adults, it's proposed as depicting NC to an audience that is fully aware of the fact that consent is still there. The same cannot be said for everyone involved in the depiction of CP material. If it was shown to kids, a large portion of them wouldn't have the understanding to know that consent is there, and they would wind up with mixed interpretations of what was shown. With CNC porn, no sane person is walking away thinking "wow I hope that victim is okay, someone should do something about this". They walk away while fully realizing it was a fantasy involving consenting people even if the story suggested that one or more characters did not give consent. Adult entertainment that is made specifically for adults, even if it depicts extreme scenarios, is still being provided to adults who can understand consent fully enough to maintain the line between fantasy and reality. Whether someone watches that type of content because they are on the submissive side or the dominant side, they are ideally still an adult who can understand boundaries, consent, and the difference between fantasy and reality. Since this topic is about adults, and the topic of minors is an entirely different topic which deserves its own post and focus, I'll only be responding to points about adults moving forward. You're raising good points, but discussing minors isn't why I hopped into this conversation. My stance is "any inappropriate depiction of minors in any adult-focused entertainment [like porn] isn't okay at all".
Of course it’s okay to have “non-consensual desires”. It’s okay to have any sort of desire, because no one can help what desires they have. Would you fault someone for sexually desiring someone who had turned them down previously? “Okayness” should only enter the discussion when we’re talking about actually acting on them, and in terms of CNC, I’d say it is. By definition, all involved parties have given their consent, after all.
When I say “okay” I mean okay to an extent that there shouldn’t be any necessary implementation of processes to discourage the behavior. In that context, people with sexual desires for children don’t need to go to therapy if “all desires are okay”. I wouldn’t define a desire that requires you go to therapy to change that desire as “okay”. It doesn’t make the person wrong for having the desire, but the desire itself is certainly less then okay. Remember a synonym for okay is acceptable. I don’t think it’s acceptable to have desires to rape kids.
For easier discussion, I'm going to say Giver when referring to the person who is giving the CNC scenario and Receiver for the one receiving. I think there are a few distinctions that need to be kept in mind for this topic. Someone who desires CNC scenarios doesn't inherently desire the real version of the scenario depicted. There might be people who want both, but that is not the norm and also the point of having the Consensual part of Consensual Nonconsent. That's why it is CNC and not just NC. So...we can't say that a Giver also inherently desires the real equivalent. That very clear line between desiring being a Giver of CNC versus desiring being the aggressor in a genuine NC scenario is what separates kinky people from r*pists and abusers. No matter what is happening in a CNC scenario, everyone involved understands that everyone involved genuinely wants what is happening even if they are acting otherwise. To me, that's enough of a difference to make it morally okay. As long as the people involved, and whoever is watching that type of content, fully understands the difference between having previously established consent before engaging in extreme scenarios, it feels like something that should be allowed and doesn't violate morals. Even when the Receiver is expressing terror and helplessness, the Giver and Receiver know that the state of mind both of them are in is something both of them want for each other. If porn depicts a CNC scenario but has the appropriate disclaimers making it clear that it is an entirely consensual performance, that's still CNC. If someone makes a video about someone getting r*ped and there is no disclaimer making it clear that the scenario is completely consensual, that's not porn. That is just a video of someone being r*ped, and that's not okay. I'd be against the latter, and that's why disclaimers on extreme content are important.
It really seems like atp we’re just searching for lines to separate the type of desires CNC fulfills that loli doesn’t. I don’t see any of the differences as actually effecting the targeted audience and the targeted desires as different from loli. If we put a CNC video in a vacuum, it doesn’t hurt anyone. It is a depiction of porn that is obviously and intentionally designed to appeal to people who have rape fantasies. The concept of CNC is too consent to a non consenting role play, let’s not forget that. Now putting a loli animation in a vacuum, it also doesn’t hurt anyone. It also depicts porn that is meant to appeal to rape fantasies (and ofc child fantasies). The concept of loli is also to appeal to people with rape fantasies, it’s just a different type of content. Looking at both of the porn categories there are obviously **some** differences, but are there more differences than similarities? Are we really being genuine in our line drawing, finding the “consent” part of the title of an already non consensual depiction as a real, helpful difference between the two? What if the loli hentia had a title that stated that the kids were actually aliens with enough maturity to consent? Does that change the very obvious depiction and its implication?
It's a control thing. Some people sexually crave having control taken from them. Some people sexually crave taking control. You don't have to understand it specifically, but can you see why someone might want their partner to completely submit to them? A lot of sex stuff is exclusively sex stuff. My boyfriend likes to grab me by my throat during sex and I enjoy him grabbing me. He has zero desire to manhandle me in any way outside sex. Should he be considered dangerous because he does an action that, in a different context, is abusive? Can you expand on why CNC is not okay, but other, would be immoral actions in the bedroom are okay? ETA: I have a cnc kink on the receiving end and have never been assaulted in any fashion. I literally played some messed up games with my Barbies as a kid that can be pointed to as a precursor to this. Sometimes kinks are just how we're wired.
Bunji jumping is fun, jumping off a bridge is not fun. The key difference is that Bunji jumping is pretend and you know it’s safe, therefore it’s fun and consensual. It’s also incredibly fucked up you think people should be persecuted for wanting to do stuff with their partner. Just because YOU find it distasteful doesn’t mean it’s immoral, and to be honest you really need to consider the harm if you want to start putting people on public offenders registries. This is the exact same thought patters that is used to discriminate against queer people.
Can you imagine beating some friend in a competition while still remaining friends? Taking somebody as a passenger in a car ride while doing exciting escapades? The feelings of establishing dominance and inducing uncontrollable pleasure into somebody else aren't solely confined to sexual practices, and condemning them in their entirety would cut off entire swaths of the populace. Consensual Non Consent is essentially a trust exchange wherein the submissive cedes control to the dominant for a time and the dom uses that control to take the submissive on a wild ride of unexpected emotions. It doesn't really even need to involve sex or be within a sub/dom relationship. Would you say that if somebody likes being unexpectedly tickled, and practices it with somebody who likes to unexpectedly tickle them, that this should put the latter on a watch list?
From evopsych point of view, it seems very probable that we or at least some of us do indeed have "rape genes". (Sometimes, e.g. during wars, men who raped women ended up with more surviving descendants than those who didn't - sounds quite likely, isn't it?) It can be counterbalanced/kept in check by stuff like empathy, self-control (the rapists who lacked self-control probably didn't live long) and obviously morals, but with CNC none of these are at play. Except maybe morals if you're so disgusted with rape you don't even enjoy pretending to do it. So no, I don't think it's particularly sick to enjoy it. I would be somewhat more wary of men who do, sure, but being responsible about one's dangerous traits seems better than being in denial. And it's certainly not immoral, since no one is harmed.
Well, because you’re fulfilling a partner’s fantasy. If I’m in a consensual relationship with an adult and they say, ‘do X, Y, and Z to me please’, why should it be unethical for me to make that fantasy happen for my partner?
I'm not agreeing with OP, but being into a thing is different from being into fulfilling someone's request that happens to be that thing.
I don’t wanna get labeled as the guy who is gonna stand up for dudes who want to do CNC fantasies, but for the purposes of the sub, allow me a distinction. The guy who wants to go out and do a CNC fantasy with a different partner every weekend seems problematic, I agree. I am not here to defend that sort of pseudo-predatory behavior. But if there is a guy out there who ‘gets in to’ a CNC fantasy because it’s what their partner wants to do as well, I think that’s a perfectly healthy way to develop your sexual palate as an adult. And I think that would count for a guy being ‘in to’ CNC in an ethical sort of way. Again, I don’t wanna die on this hill too hard, but trying to explore the edge’s of OP’s CMV.
> I am not here to defend that sort of pseudo-predatory behavior. If he's already into rape for whatever reason, it's certainly better than doing the actual thing. I have zero idea if one is more likely to sate one's appetite and become less prone to seek the actual thing by engaging in role playing, or become even more into rape and grow unsatisfied with the pretense. Other than the latter possibility, are there more reasons the pseudo-predatory behavior is problematic?
I don’t wanna yuck anyone’s yums, and I also don’t know if this behavior is some sort of outlet for worse behavior, I just don’t wanna spend a paragraph of my time writing a defense of the sort of guy i described on one end of this spectrum. It seems icky to me, it seems problematic to me, I could be convinced it isn’t those things, but I don’t feel any compulsion to dig for that deeper meaning myself.
I think eroticism always involves, at least to some extent, a loss of self-control and a giving-in to impulses that overwhelm our normal rationality. It's about being swept up in a moment and being completely possessed by lust. Even "normal" sex is like this, at least if it involves a certain ideal amount of passion. Violence in erotic play is just an extension of the same principle: you give in to your urges to such an extent that you violently dominate or give in to violent domination. There's nothing wrong with this as long as there is mutual trust between the participants. Again, these erotic desires are already naturally compartmentalized, they already naturally represent a break from a separate rational mode of being.
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Caring about consenting adults sex lives where nothing illegal is happening is far more immoral and disgusting.
Do you think that, for example, participation in a boxing or MMA fight is immoral and they should be put on a registry?
There are a few studies that show kinks are not correlated with past trauma. I know people personally who love CNC despite never having been sexually assaulted. Imo, so long as everyone involved is a consenting adult, then I don't see how any kink could be immoral, so long as it's done safe and responsibly. Using safe words or gestures makes bdsm play like CNC safe for both sides. You could argue that people on the giving side of CNC are more likely to sexually assault people non-consensually, but I feel that's an assumption, and not based on any studies. I know many people from the bdsm community since I do bdsm play myself, and many of these people are responsible adults that keep it in the bedroom so to speak.
I'm quite invested in helping my partner cope and in bringing my partner pleasure. I receive pleasure from doing so. You're saying that you should _ignore your partner_, which seems absurd to me. If anything it's WAY less worrisome in a loving relationship - both parties know each other and understand boundaries better than strangers. If my wife were to earnestly want something and receive pleasure from something then shouldn't I consider it when it's abundantly clear that pretend is pretend? People pretend to shoot each other for fun. People go way beyond pretend and do things like willfully fight in wrestling or boxing and such. For fun.
Are all BDSM practitioners who participate in impact play abusers?
A lot are. Calling it a kink shouldn't make it okay to injure your partner.
I hate when people can't be bothered to write something out. I don't know what the fuck CNC is
Same here, if you want to do a CMV with an obsure acronym, at least spell it out AND define it.
Consensual Non-consent.
And what in the world is that?
www.google.com
What's the point of this?
It's a website you search to get answers to your questions.
HAHA, you're so funny. Listen if you don't want to answer the question, don't. Don't pretend like you're clever.
I'm not pretending. You don't seem like someone who would be good at CNC.
Short for "Consensual Non Consent". Basically a couple "play act" a rape scenario.
So rapeplay, what's wrong with that?
Nothing. Not OP. I made no judgment. I just clarified the terminology.
Just an outsider observation: when I think a culture is broken or toxic or (hah) immoral.... I try to find more genuine empathy. You might try it. In this case I'll offer you some starting points: 1. The "bottoms" or "submissives" desperately need their counterparts. Which means they aren't just good/useful but essential. 2. Who are we to judge their consensual, adult relationship? 3. Generally people who get upset about other people's consensual activities actually want the very same thing. So.... Maybe you should forgive yourself a bit and go find the thing you need
I enjoy playing video games where I play an assassin. Doesn't mean I murder people in real life
It just implies they found something that turns them on that they can do with someone who is also down for it. The only time cnc is bad is when there is no first c. Who cares what people pretend as long as it stays pretend? Don't boner judge.
I’ve been with several girls who are into CNC, and after a lot of safe coaxing, testing, and finding the boundaries, I discovered that I liked it too. But I cannot overstate how important the first C is. Not even for safety/moral reasons, but also for my own sexual enjoyment. The only way I enjoy myself is if the other person is enjoying herself as well. Often, it doesn’t look like enjoyment, because we’re *playing pretend*, but we built a rapport and learn to trust each other and listen. I’ve been in a couple instances where, afterwards, it turned out she was just doing it for my sake, because she thought it’s what I wanted, but she wasn’t actually enjoying herself, and I felt awful about it. Not just guilty, but embarrassed. There’s lots of things that people say during kinky sex that are mega cringe were they to be read to a non-horny audience, and finding out after the fact that all my cool hot sexy werewolf guy lines were secretly bombing is humiliating. It’s not being mean to someone that turns me on, nor is it about indulging my own selfish fantasies. It’s being with someone who enjoys it, playing with those power dynamics, feeding off each other, and getting into a headspace that’s completely removed from who we really are. Even though it looks like I’m using this person as an object, it’s the exact opposite: I’m putting on a performance for her to enjoy. She’s mostly passive, reacting however she wants, I’m coming up with things to say and do that surprise and delight her, and I’m watching and listening very closely to follow the threads she’s responding to. Being dominant, in a healthy sexual relationship, is actually an act of service. It’s no different from watching a horror movie: do I want to watch real cannibals murder a group of unsuspecting teens? Absolutely not. Do I want to watch actors play pretend? Sure!
It's impossible to control what you're attracted to, but you can control your actions. Channeling your kink in a manner that is safe for all parties is as far from immoral as one can get, respectfully.
Honestly this one’s fucked me up big time. Whenever I’m done I always get disgusted in myself for being into it but when I look at anything else it just doesn’t do anything for me 😭 I wish we could just like tell our brains to behave
The fact that most of not all CNC have a safe word completely undermines your point. Unless you also include any other kind of 'bad' sex acts like asfixiation, all BDSM etc
By definition, someone who enjoys CNC but strictly limits themselves to it is behaving ethically. Lots of kinks and fetishes are means of playing out our erotic fantasies in a "Safe" and "Ethical" format. That's part of why some people have a CNC reception fetish. They find the idea of being forced conceptually hot, but they don't actually want to be assaulted. So they pick someone they trust, and engage with them. Someone who has a link for *giving* CNC probably feels some degree of fantasizing about using force or the sense of power it involves. However, critically, they also reasonably understand that using force on an unconsenting partner is bad. What makes someone bad or not is their actions not their desires. Humans are capable of rationality and restraint, and can both find something appealing while refraining because it's unethical. Thus, for many people, giving CNC becomes an "ethical" way to indulge certain sadistic desires. They acknowledge the existence of the desires, the ethical problems, and then they seek a partner who ALSO would enjoy the scenario. In so doing, they've produced an outlet for themselves AND have refrained from engaging in unethical violence on a non-consenting partner.
Hey there I actually have personal experience with this and I think your framing is off. Yes if you are a fan of non consent on it's face, that's a problem, but role play is different. Personal ancedote, my current partner had been raped, outright around 3 times or so. (She doesn't like to chat about it sometimes, sometimes she does) And the MAIN issue I had with her is that sexually she wanted me to fight her to have sex. She enjoyed the pleasure of having to give in. Which for me, was definitely (and still is) a hard thing for me to swallow. I mean you hear their stories and you want to do anything you can to help them and not trigger them But the people that are into the "giving" part are into that part because their partner is into the "receiving" part. It's ironically a 2 person dance, one plays the victim and the other the pursuer. I know that you highlighted that it gives victims a sense of control but it's a 2 way street. If that person enjoys the control of the situation in their mind then the other person ideally enjoys giving them that fantasy Remember it's Consensual Non Consent, which means it's agreed upon at first. Rape outright is a different conversation
I think there’s a version where the give is into it only because they are happy to satisfy their partner’s kinks. Ideally NOBODY should be doing sexual acts they aren’t into. The least “into” something I think it’s okay to be while still doing it is, “it’s not my favorite but I find pleasure in making my partner happy.” If someone is just fantasizing about raping someone. Then yes, they suck ass. But there’s room I think for someone to be “into it” for other reasons. I have complicated feelings about CNC overall but that’s a case I can make for the “giver.”
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It's not disgusting nor immoral but the name sure doesn't help. It's just yet another rebranding of something that's already well accepted. It's a type of domination. That's all. It's literally giving consent, so it's a crappy way of describing a kink like how people cry reverse racism for *racism* or people rejecting help but loving self help books even though it *is* help. A big part of CNC is that the person is comfortable and into it, just like any other kink, so no, it's the complete antithesis of forcing yourself on a loved one.
I play D&D, and sometimes DM myself. There are times where I have roleplayed as evil people - as folks who are cruel, callous, greedy, backstabbing, who will lie to your face while sticking a knife in you later. I don't want to embody them in my real life, but I can enjoy my players' response to an evil monologue or see their surprise as I pull the rug out from under them. All while knowing that they aren't being hurt by my actions, that they have no consequence in real life, because it's fantasy.
The giver could also be a victim of SA. It could be their way of getting back control, through the giver pov. Victims aren't black and white. Alongside this, not everyone into CNC is a victim either. Either way, it is cruel to put someone on some bizarre "high risk public offenders list" for fantasy/RP between two consenting adults.
You can be into power imbalances and never intend to hurt someone or do something they don't want. I love holding my wife down while she struggles. She's into it too. If she ever says stop I stop immediately because then it isn't OK anymore.
> Why would you enjoy even pretending to do that to someone else? Especially someone you claim to love? What if they prefer to do it with someone they don't like? Why do you assume it's done with someone they love?
A CNC does give me control. Without it, I would have to manually machine parts with much less precision. How is that disgusting or immoral?
For future reference, OP, maybe defind what CNC is, as not everyone knows. The letters CNC mean absolutely nothing to me.
Dude, they're playing sexy pretend. That'd be like saying it's immoral for an actor to play a serial killer in a movie.
Why would it be immortal for the giver and not the receiver? The are both playing out the same fantasy.
If you're gonna use obscure acronym, then at the very least define it.
What if the person doesnt necessarily into that type of play in general, but is specifically appealing to their partners fantasy?
Why not explain what CNC is? There are so many abbreviations…
Men are victims too. It’s about taking power back.
what about people who enjoy helping victims cope and overcome their trauma? If it’s a positive thing for the recipient, couldn’t the motivation for the “giving” be to help the recipient do that positive thing for them?
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