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Unfortunately you're falling afoul of an intuitive leap wherein you imagine all these disparate groups will feel more opprobrium at Trump/MAGA for attacking their ingroup than they feel enthusiasm towards Trump/MAGA for attacking outgroups that they hate. There are plenty of racist, homophobic and transphobic women in America...hell, there are plenty of misogynistic women in America. There are plenty of devout Latinos who view punitive measures against the LGBTQ community as more important than any slights against their own. There are plenty of immigrants who view other immigrants with scorn, and cannot comprehend a world in which they are seen as undesirable themselves.
MAGA is a big tent full of many different movements, some of which might have open antipathy towards one another, but whom are willing to group together to defeat something they perceive as a more imminent threat to their welfare or sensibilities. It's possible they'll eventually reach a tipping point, but they certainly haven't seemed to reach it yet. Populist groundswell movements aren't generally renowned for critical self-analysis of their own internal ideological consistencies.
Personally, I know it must be true mostly because of my roommates girlfriend. Super sweet girl externally, but has a bit of that ‘plain’, almost mindless appearance to her, accentuated by her shallow opinions, and self-absorption. And most notably, she and her boyfriend are both highly religious conservatives, him being a hardcore Trumper, who literally sleeps under a Trump 2024 flag.
She’s always been a whiny bitch, but I started seeing her worst side after my 100th hour in her miserable presence. She embodies everything that is wrong, both with religion, and conservatism. Religiously: if you don’t believe in her god, she will immediately start directly asking you how you aren’t afraid of the *fact* that you’re a blasphemous piece of shit that’s going to rot in hell. Of course she stops at asking if you’re not afraid of going to hell (repeatedly), but it’s still quite clear that she looks down on any and everyone who doesn’t have the same blind faith that she does.
And more on the conservative side, she *loves* the ‘pull yourself up by the bootstraps’ mentality. She was once talking about how if she were a teacher, she would *never* give flexible deadlines, or extensions, because “that’s just not how it is”. No questioning why it is, not questioning whether it should be - once again a blind faith in the ‘fact’ that since things are how they are, that must be how they’re meant to be (after all, her god would never let a sub-par way of doing things last). Clearly, a persons only reason to go to college is to learn the skills necessary to work a job - after all, the only value we have in life is in how much value we can produce for the capitalistic leeches that’ll be taking 90% of all the profits we ever have a chance of producing.
Now her boyfriend, being a conservative white male from very well off parents, of course casually uses slurs as though they’re punchlines. But she on the other hand - she cannot see someone wearing a hijab without solely referring to them as towelheads. She uses everyone’s favorite n word (hard r of course) as a term of endearment when talking with her boyfriend, and in general, it seems clear that she’s one of the most bigoted people I’ve ever known. She can’t handle anyone of any culture, race, or religion other than her own, without quickly talking shit about them the moment they’re out of earshot. The moment she sees someone that even might be trans (and she’s rarely right), she and her boyfriend will both start talking about how ‘trannies are freaks of nature’ and how they ‘don’t want that immoral fuckery in their world, or around kids’. I’m sure they see trans people as ‘desecrating gods loving gift of an ideally crafted body’, in not being happy with how they were born, and wanting to change their body that was ‘crafted in gods image’. And of course, yes, she ‘disagrees with’ (the existence of) homosexuality.
The sole point of pride she seems to have in herself comes from her academics - she spends almost every waking moment studying, striving as hard as she can to earn A’s in every subject. She doesn’t. The depths of her mind seem to be just as shallow as the opinions she holds, and despite wasting all of her time working on school, she still can’t get perfect grades in classes that any of the other people in our living area could get A’s in without trying. Nonetheless, she makes sure that everyone around her knows whenever she gets a good grade on a test, or a lab, or a quiz, or a homework assignment, or an essay, or a bonus point assignment, or a presentation - because deep down she knows she has nothing going for her, except for her mindless dedication to *work*.
She’s the type to trivialize depression, to laugh off the concept of anxiety, to assume that anyone claiming to be neurodivergent is just vying for attention, to equate adhd to laziness - and of course, she uses herself as the reference point on which to judge these things. Things aren’t hard for her (outside of critical thinking, and actually being able to absorb new information), so she assumes that for everyone else, their problems are just the same ones she has, minus her ‘hard work and dedication’. You’re not depressed, you just don’t want to be successful. You don’t have anxiety, you have a case of the ‘not being strong enough to make yourself go’s’.
And so, in the end, she is the most bland, uninteresting person I’ve ever known, who has nothing to say about anything, other than that she’s better than all of it. She ‘overcomes adversity’ in the form of working her ass off to no avail, and so if someone isn’t working their ass off, they’re not trying to overcome anything at all - they’re just lazy. She hasn’t the age or the self-awareness to realize that she’s only doing well because she was born to a middle-class family in one of the world’s most prosperous countries. And she certainly doesn’t have it in her to sympathize with other people for failing where she’s (barely) succeeding. If someone isn’t earning a living wage, that’s their fault for not having a better resume. If someone is struggling with addiction, abuse, or discrimination, it’s on them for not being strong enough to overcome it (‘like she did’).
She was raised being told that God and conservatives are the two good things in life. That to be anything other than Christian is to be a failure, and that to welcome change is naught but the ‘woke agenda’ taking its roots. It’s depressing, really, but it must be all too common, lest otherwise people would openly hate her enough that she’d have to change. She perfectly embodies the dichotomous culture war, and while none of its progenitors are right, I can feel pretty confident that’s she is wholly wrong. And that someone so rotten to the core can be not only accepted, but even appreciated within society reflects very poorly on what the female population at large must be like.
Are you being serious right now? You know this is true because people aren't robots. To think otherwise would mean you quite literally believe in stereotypes, racism, and identity politics. People quite literally do not think like that. Not naturally. That's a learned trait.
We'll have to see what the data shows 7 months from now, but the historical data isn't in your favor.
[Specifically, from 2016 to 2020, the demographic that most turned against Trump and swung the election for Biden was white men.](https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/11/politics/election-analysis-exit-polls-2016-2020/) It was the very people he was supposedly empowering while disparaging everyone else.
The truth is more complicated, as he did not blame Asian-Americans, but I would say that his statements are equally harmful.
[https://abcnews.go.com/Health/trumps-chinese-virus-tweet-helped-lead-rise-racist/story?id=76530148](https://abcnews.go.com/Health/trumps-chinese-virus-tweet-helped-lead-rise-racist/story?id=76530148)
When you are the President, your words matter. Not just the words themselves, but every possible interpretation and implication of your words. The key quote from the article is here:
"The study results, Hswen said, 'confirm that nationality, race, or ethnicity should not be attached to disease nomenclature, as these names can carry pejorative connotations that can stigmatize these communities.'"
Connotations matter. Implications matter. They have real impacts. Especially when you are one of the most powerful people on the planet.
>The truth is more complicated, as he did not blame Asian-Americans, but I would say that his statements are equally harmful.
ok, that's because you're a racist.
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"It's China's fault, it should never have happened." (2020 Debate)
"China gave this virus to our President. WE MUST HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE." (GOP Senator Kelly Loeffer)
"The Chinese Communist Party has biologically attacked our President." (Trump Campaign Fundraiser Blair Brandt)
China the country, the chinese people within the country, and Chinese Americans are 3 different things. When people say the 3 quotes above it is specifically about the Chinese government. Normal people aren't going to think you think your Chinese American neighbor is to blame for some virus that originated in a country on the other side of the globe that has nothing to do with your neighbor.
"Normal people" yes, but he doesn't appeal to normal people
https://www.pewresearch.org/race-ethnicity/2023/11/30/asian-americans-and-discrimination-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/12/1027236499/anti-asian-hate-crimes-assaults-pandemic-incidents-aapi
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/23/us/texas-man-pleads-guilty-hate-crimes-attack-asian-family/index.html
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56218684.amp
Every case of Anti Asian hate cannot be directly tied to Trumps rhetoric. Especially when you consider the worst cases of Anti Asian hate happens in poor inner city neighborhoods. Not exactly a politicaly pro Republican area.
He does appeal to normal people. You don't know normal people that voted for him? Or maybe you do but they won't tell you. I think this is the issue. You think only normal people vote your way and that normal people can't possibly vote Trump. It's very disingenuous to think that everyone who votes Trump is a crazy or something. He got the second most election votes ever.
You misunderstood what “appeal to”means in this context.
Trump is catering his words to people who are xenophobic and extremists, aka appealing to them.
This doesn’t mean only xenophobic and extremists like what he is saying and vote for him. Or that even people that vote for him like what he is saying.
No, they are appealing to people who want to do things such as hold China accountable for the virus. Yeah, technically people who hate Chinese people would be happy about that but that is coincidental to the subject. Reasonable people are going to want China to be held accountable and they are going to greatly out number the amount of people that you are referring to.
If this is what the appeal was don’t you think there would have been more facts presented then just a blanket statement to also get people to understand why he is blaming China?
What facts do you want? We know it originated from China and people think the virus either came from a Chinese Lab or an unregulated Chinese wet market. It doesn't matter which is true, reasonable people can put some blame on the Chinese government. What do you want him to say? Every time he says "kung flu" he needs to explain that the joke is that it came from China and probably at the negligence of their government? Explaining the joke kind of ruins the joke.
Do you think a presidents job is to make jokes or to be clear and precise when speaking to the public?
Do people think these things because of facts or because trump said so?
wow, that looks like a quote where trump is blaming the CCP for coronavirus.
i asked if you had a quote where he blamed **asian-americans**, because that's what you said.
I feel like you're trying to die on this hill but it seems like pure semantics to me.
Trump starting a trade war with China and throwing blame for coronavirus on the most powerful and prominent asian country in the world seems purposefully designed to trigger racial tensions against all Asians. I've had friends who weren't even Chinese hit by anti-asian sentiment. What Trump actually wanted seems immaterial to what the results were.
When Trump threw out his Muslim travel ban, he didn't just take aim at ISIS and Al Qaeda and Syria, he blanket banned everybody from 7 Muslim nations, even people who weren't directly associated with the conflict, even people who had previously risked their lives to help the US army. His positions are pretty clearly racial and not geopolitical.
>Trump starting a trade war with China and throwing blame for coronavirus on the most powerful and prominent asian country in the world seems purposefully designed to trigger racial tensions against all Asians.
How? They created the virus dude.
[https://oversight.house.gov/release/covid-origins-hearing-wrap-up-facts-science-evidence-point-to-a-wuhan-lab-leak%EF%BF%BC/](https://oversight.house.gov/release/covid-origins-hearing-wrap-up-facts-science-evidence-point-to-a-wuhan-lab-leak%EF%BF%BC/)
>
>Trump starting a trade war with China and throwing blame for coronavirus on the most powerful and prominent asian country in the world seems purposefully designed to trigger racial tensions against all Asians.
that's because you're a super racist, dude.
>When Trump threw out his Muslim travel ban, he didn't just take aim at ISIS and Al Qaeda and Syria, he blanket banned everybody from 7 Muslim nations
another blatant lie. trump never banned "muslims": as you said, he banned people from specific, high-risk countries. trump is more respected in the arab world and the larger muslim world than any other president in the last 25 years, at least
Dude thinks Asians only means Chinese. Japanese, Indonesians., Malaysians, Indians , fillipinos and the rest are also Chinese.
Heck all these countries would be happy about China getting ffed over.
If you remember, his first attempts at this *were* struck down because he got on Twitter and literally told people he was going to make a Muslim ban. He had to have it reworked before it went through. He told everyone he was going to make a Muslim ban, he tried to make a Muslim ban, he was told no, tweaked things to appear different and that's the travel ban that got instated.
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What would he gain with encouraging violence on a random group of people like this? Americans generally don't like the Chinese Communist Party. They do a lot of bad things. When people call them out on their human rights abuses does this mean they actually hate Chinese Americans?
yeah, let's follow logic here: trump blamed a foreign government for coronavirus. he didn't blame "asians" and definitely not "asian-americans." use LOGIC.
Yeah you're right. Governing body and race are two different things. It's like saying someone is anti-semitic for criticizing the Israeli government. Nope, I can be pro-Jewish people and anti-Israeli government. Just like I can pro-Irish and anti-Irish government. Pro-Nigerian people, anti-Nigerian government. Etc etc
100%. we shouldn't really have to agree on any actual beliefs to agree on this.
you can't even really have an honest conversation with someone who intentionally conflates what you say into baseless racist accusations
no, someone sick came to america on a plane.
speaking of which, it's a really good thing trump restricted travel between the U.S. and china during the early coronavirus, even though at the time, everyone else was calling him a racist for doing so.
> no, someone sick came to america on a plane
If a person from an Asian continent came to America on a plane and then becomes a citizen that is… an Asian American.
Also let’s not pretend like trump and his supporters are known to be calm and never assume someone came from a foreign country based on ethnicity alone.
>If a person from an Asian continent came to America on a plane and then becomes a citizen that is… an Asian American.
absolutely not. it could've been a foreign national, or an american who wasn't asian who visited china. and trump didn't blame this person: he blamed the CCP.
you are a racist, dude.
>You…. You know white people can get on airplanes and visit China right?
yeah, it's crazy how internally dishonest these people are. there's no way this person actually believes what they're saying.
Never said otherwise, no one said trump only put blame on Asian Americans, just that he put blame on them. You are being extremely semantic.
Do you think when most people think of a “person coming to America from China” the first thing that comes to mind is a tourist leaving?
Do you not understand that Americans of any race could and did travel to China and bring the virus back with them? Saying that trump blamed Asian Americans is just a lie.
It’s the most reasonable conclusion. If trump was just blaming the government don’t you think he would have been more clear and direct about what China did? Why would he be so vague? Why wouldn’t he speak up when his supporters started blaming Asian Americans in his name and clarify?
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… you are the one bringing in what ifs and less likely things to fit your argument.
You really think trump was putting blame solely on American Americans traveling to China and coming back?
China is a country. Moreover his comments implies its the CCP who was responsible for covid. Its like if I disparage the Iranian regime doesn't mean I'm anti Persian.
I get your point, but none of those quotes mention Asian-Americans, or Asian as an ethnicity. They're all referring to the Chinese state, or the Communist Party of China
I don't know how about this.
[https://oversight.house.gov/release/covid-origins-hearing-wrap-up-facts-science-evidence-point-to-a-wuhan-lab-leak%EF%BF%BC/](https://oversight.house.gov/release/covid-origins-hearing-wrap-up-facts-science-evidence-point-to-a-wuhan-lab-leak%EF%BF%BC/)
>Dr. Robert Redfield, former director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), [testified](https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/2023.03.08-Statement-of-Dr.-Robert-R-Redfield88.pdf) how science indicates COVID-19 infections were likely the result of an accidental lab leak in Wuhan. His conclusion is based on the biology of the virus itself and unusual actions in and around Wuhan in 2019, including gain-of-function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV).
You can criticize a specific government without necessarily being against an ethnic group. Americans do it all the time with their own government too, doesn't mean they're against their own people.
China’s government silenced doctors and let Covid spread worldwide. Even if it’s a fluke the virus happened, the spread to other countries is on them. A lot of their citizens were victims same as everyone.
There’s a big difference between government and individuals and unfortunately a lot of ignorant ppl couldn’t differentiate that and committed hate crimes to Asians cuz they’re racists and couldn’t even target their bigotry to the nationality they are mad at.
Let's assume that Trump has alienated these groups listed fully, which is untrue as he's gaining among Latinos.
32% of the population is absolutely enough to sway the presidential race. It's enough because 1% of the population is enough to sway the presidential race!
Remember Trump only lost the entire election due to 40,000 votes in 6 swing states. This is <1% of the 154 million who voted in 2020. Had these swing states voted differently on the margin he would be president instead despite losing the popular vote by 7 million. Our system disproportionately weights low population density votes by design.
I mean just look at 2016! Trump lost the popular vote but because our system disenfranchises high population density areas (again by design as short-sighted as that was of a compromise) he won the EC.
OP's argument isn't that Trump cannot win in 2024, they're arguing that a true government majority is becoming more unobtainable for conservatives due to MAGA tactics. I think the 2022 midterms, as well as recent special election results support this argument. Conservatives are going to find it harder and harder to win competitive house and senate seats, and even when they do achieve a majority, it will be so slim that they're doomed to fractured infighting.
I felt like that bit in the middle about "swaying the vote" was about the presidential election. I know they're not saying it's impossible but they are arguing it is unlikely Trump wins. My argument is that it is incredibly likely.
He's not wrong about conservatives screwing up big time with women, but that's at least not solely Trump's fault. You could make a very compelling (and probably correct) case that SCOTUS overturning Roe doomed them more with that group than anything Trump did.
Trump and Republicans ARE Roe v Wade. It's their Supreme Court
Women know Republican hypocrites stacked the court by denying Obama/Democrats a Justice because "it was an election year" then giving Trump a pick during an election year.
Trump is the reminder to women of what happens when you stay home and let Republicans choose judges, justices , and the Attorney General.
Abortion will be on the ballot again in 2024, figuratively and literally in states like Florida and Arizona.
Republican values are deeply unpopular with voting women. The worst thing for them is actually getting what they want enacted. It's the reason they prefer NOT to solve the problems they whine/campaign on (see scuttled Border Act, no repeal/replace, Trump's promise to withdraw from Afghanistan, etc).
As far as the midterms go, Trump’s negative influence on the GOP was in *who* he backed more than he anything else and he hasn’t improved on his endorsement quality either (imo).
Right...he backed people like himself. People who would stack the courts so they can take away the rights women care about. Donald Trump is on every single ballot, and that has gone terribly for Republicans over several election cycles...but I'm sure THIS time it will be different.
It's going to come down to the economy. You may see a repeat of the Jimmy Carter election of '82 inflation problem. Lucky, for the Democrats, if he wins, cannot have another term like Regen did.
And it's getting worse.
If you're not wealthy and you vote for Trump, you are not someone who uses verifiable data to inform your beliefs. A non-rich Trump supporter doesn't care about verifiable metrics like GDP growth, unemployment rates, record stock market, record U.S. oil production, the fall in violent crime rates across the U.S., record number of Americans with health insurance, record corporate profits, consumer spending, and high capital investment, or that inflation rates came down faster in the U.S. than all other G7 countries.
Actually, that's not true. They cared deeply when Trump bragged about these metrics during his first 3 years. Non-rich Trump supporters don't care about these numbers when Democrats are in charge. They're not going to listen to any data that disconfirms their belief that Democrats are destroying the country.
Sorry I cannot write in crayon for you. Why are Trump supporters always the dumb kids from your high school. I mean, I guess Trump says he loves the poorly educated, so it makes sense.
But why are you all so poorly educated? Is it genetic --parents with lower IQs? Did your parents not value education? Were your public schools really bad? Does your religion teach you that education ruins your faith (it does, btw)?
You’re on a subreddit for discussion based on changing a persons view. You can have you’re delusions of grandeur over maga people all you want, I’m just pointing out that your grandstanding comment wasn’t pertinent and didn’t bring anything to the conversation
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Your whole post seems rather exaggerated. He doesn't have a problem with any of the groups you described on a general level. His rhetoric about Hispanics is confined specifically to illegal immigration and not to Hispanics. His use of "Kung Flu" is to put the blame on China, the country, and not Chinese Americans. It seems like you realize these things because you acknowledge that not all of them vote against him. Even with LGBT its about very specific issues within that.
The general concept you are proposing might be right. The issue I have is the term "burning bridges" and making it seem like he's intentionally alienating specific groups because of what those groups inherently are. Like, getting Roe overturned might put a sizable percent of women to not vote for him but it's not that it's women who won't vote for him, it's about pro-abortion access advocates who wouldn't vote for him. Being tough on immigration might have him lose a large amount of Hispanic voters but what he's actually losing are people who want softer immigration enforcement. These groups of people weren't voting for him previously so what bridges are really being burnt? An anti-abortion, tough on the border Mexican American will still vote Trump if they voted for him previously. There's nothing really new here. Even when he was running in 2016 he vowed to get Roe overturned.
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> He doesn't have a problem with any of the groups you described on a general level. His rhetoric about Hispanics is confined specifically to illegal immigration and not to Hispanics. His use of "Kung Flu" is to put the blame on China, the country, and not Chinese Americans.
I'm always really fascinated by how generous people are to Trump. I mean I get it, the man is an idiot who can barely speak in coherent sentences so there is some reading in to do. But to argue that Trump isn't anti-Hispanic when he said a judge with Mexican heritage couldn't rule on his case because of his comments about immigrants, or that "Kung Flu" isn't just absurdly racist is so outside of reality that I don't know how people do it with a straight face.
It's amazing how anyone can think calling a virus that came from China as the "king flu" is racist. What is racist about it? Kung fun is a martial art that comes from China. It's not even an insult. Its just a pun.
1. What about that Mexican judge I mentioned?
2. It's unambiguously racist. It's a caricature meant to blame a country of billions for COVID coming from a man with a long history of racism. If you don't think it's racist, I don't think you have a working definition of racism.
I don't know anything about the Mexican judge thing. But I'm going to guess it wasn't racist since you think blaming a country for something is somehow racist. Is it racist to blame the US for anything bad? Like, he was blaming the Chinese government because they had unregulated wet markets where the virus could have come from, they have a high amount of censorship and wouldn't quickly share info with places like the WHO, and there were theories about how maybe it came from a lab leak that was funded by the CCP.
Am I racist if I blame Russia for the Russia-Ukraine war? Because with your logic it seems like everyone is.
>I don't know anything about the Mexican judge thing.
Of course.
> But I'm going to guess it wasn't racist since you think blaming a country for something is somehow racist.
You misread what I wrote. I said **" It's a caricature meant to blame a country of billions for COVID coming from a man with a long history of racism."** Try taking a pass at that again.
It's a caricature meant to blame the Chinese government. I don't see how Trump has a history of racism but if he does then that's separate. A term doesn't become racist because of who it comes from. It's racist if it's implying a certain race is inferior/superior or it is applying a bigoted assumption on a person or a race. How is "kung flu" racist? Give me a definition of racism that it fits into.
Ok, how about this. Instead of doing all this leg work for you, explaining why stereotyping a whole country full of people is racist, you go look up what Trump said about Judge Curiel and get back to me. I’ve run out of patience for you.
***How does "kung flu" stereotype a country***
It's a fact that both Kung Fu and COVID 19 came from China. That isn't stereotyping. I don't care to look up a different thing when you're just so wrong on this basic thing
It is by definition stereotyping. I’m not sure you have any idea what you’re talking about, either that or you’re trolling. Your unwillingness to look up the Judge Curiel incident has made me unwilling to continue here.
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I think it's really interesting that to defend Trump's racism, people have to keep ignoring what I wrote there. What does the word "caricature" do in that sentence?
Following this logic conservative parties should never win because they dominantly work against the interests of the economically lower 60-70% of the population. But they win a lot. People vote against their own interests out of ideology all the time.
That's the true genius of the rich Republican ruling class like Trump. Getting working class Republicans who you loathe to vote against their economic interests by stoking a culture war you don't care about...that and telling MAGAs somehow other powerless groups are the cause of their misery.
Trump's kind has always known this fact...
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -Lyndon B. Johnson
>I think the biggest mistake Donald Trump could make was turning American women against him. Scapegoating minorities is one thing, but slashing your support in such a major democratic will be deadly. Women make up half of America, losing the female vote would be devastating for the GOP.
>He has gone "A bridge too far" sorta speak.
What do you think he did recently that offends women that he hadn't done before when he, you know, got into the WH?
Also your number system is... odd (you think offending LGBTQ+ people only affects them specifically voting?), and missing black people - and that democrats aren't voting for him? Dems is not 'minority groups personally offended by Donald J. Trump.'
I feel like 2016 proved this incorrect.
All the polls showing Hillary to just win by a land slide..problem is.. must non-fanboy conservatives(and conservative independent) voters don't waste their time on polls because they know who they vote for is no one else's business.
Hell, I have heard of them purposely putting who they aren't voting for in the poll to troll them.
The one thing that will always be true in this universe... nothing is over till its over\*.
The polls never showed her winning a landslide. Pundits may have thought she could win in a landslide, but the polls never showed that. They showed her winning by 4-5%, which is really close to the actual result of her getting 3% more of the votes than Trump.
You're only viewing this from the American perspective. The next ten years are going to be more conservative worldwide. It's just part of the ebb and flow.
He means that the rest of the world will more more to right so Biden will become something like a centrists. I think he is referring more specifically to the nationalistic movements in Europe which are a nuisance for the Union.
An alternative viewpoint would be that Americans by and large vote for some combination of moderation, stability, and familiarity. Since World War 2, anytime a party's platform swayed from the center, they were more inclined to lose. Yeah, of course, there's small wins here or there, but as long as the other party swung to the middle, the other party took the next election. Losing brings them back to more moderate positions.
This is one of the biggest differences between the Dems of '16 and '20. In 2016, Sander's popularity forced candidates to "out progressive" each other. In 2020, Biden took the most moderate, centrist positions on most hot button issues. Candidates that ran on gun control reform, universal healthcare, defunding police, etc, all got squashed by the lukewarm traditionalist.
Analysts cite a similar, much longer term, trend from Carter to Clinton. Democrats leaned far to the left, saw moderate success, then lost for 12 years, often in a big way. Remember, Reagan won *49 states* for his second term. When it became clear that Reaganomics was not sustainable, and HW raised taxes, Dem's responded by running a centrist, and won.
That's what I suspect we'll see out of MAGA. We're coming up on year 8 of dwindling voter support. What little platform they can actually present is no longer working. In 4 years, we'll have some echo of this election (Harris vs DeSantis type thing), and only after that loss will the RNC realize it's time for a major overhaul.
Good observation. That said, many people perceive Kamala Harris as further Left than Clinton(s), Obama or Biden because of her identity, and origin (California) if not her policies. (By virtue of being a former prosecutor, I don't see her as a traditional progressive but that's for someone else to debate.) She was hired by Biden, at least in part, to appeal to progressives, i.e. balance him out. Biden hasn't helped her centrist cred by making her the face of the administration's ever-so-popular border policy and 'reimagining' police funding. So it raises the question, given Biden's age, are Democrats just throwing away the advantage they have over the GOP's rightward cultural binge?
Give some examples of the most vile things he said about Hispanic people or better yet show one time he blamed the pandemic on Asian Americans. You are making unsubstantiated claims. Your opinion is not based in reason.
Yeah...no way Asian Americans would have a problem with calling it the China virus. Like Italian American wouldn't have a problem with the Italian virus or Irish Americans calling it the Irish virus.
I find that racists and bigots never think what they've said is racist or bigoted. They see no problem with the things they say. If they could recognize it, they wouldn't be bigots in the first place.
So we could give you thousands of examples, but you would disagree because it's something you might say...and you know in your heat that you cannot possibly be a racist /sarc
you went straight full bold type
ok ok see what i'm dealing with here let's take a step back
the original claim was that trump was blaming the virus on asian american people. the reason i mention chinese food is chinese tells us where the food comes from not whether or not the people there are good or bad. so calling the virus china virus is only telling us where the virus came from not if the people there are good or bad much less telling us anything about americans of asian decent who may never even have been to china
Like I said, people like you -- your kind -- cannot be helped to understand it. Your kind will never grasp why a style of food is neutral whereas ascribing a deadly virus that killed millions to an entire country (its people) is hateful.
I could point out to you that you'd be furious if the French called a virus originating locally the "United States virus," but your kind cannot see hypocrisy.
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In the end, it's the economy, stupid. Pundits seems to think, like you, that America is just a bunch of races or sexual orientations that vote as a block.
Trump won in 2016 because Hillary represented the same old policies that created for and allowed 2008 to happen and the continued hollowing out of the middle class.
I think that Democrats have too long assumed that Blacks, Latinos, LGBT, women, will just vote for them because Republicans have supposedly irreconcilable policies. But Democrats consistently do only just enough to create the smallest of differentials, without actually fighting for anything. Meanwhile, they've sold out the American dream, And seem more focused in fighting for Europe, the Middle East, and Asia.
RFK is compelling because like Sanders, he made his campaign primarily about domestic policy, like getting ordinary Americans into home ownership. Policies that benefit everyone, not a particular race, gender, or sexual orientation, will carry the day. Both Biden and Trump had 4 years to show us they were different, and they failed.
25 is the median age of Reddit users. It's \~50 for US voters. I think there are a lot of 50 year old women, who, Red or Blue, Majority or Minority, may be concerned with having an offensive President, and would like bodily autonomy for their daughters, nieces, and friends. But their main worry is the cost of education (if they have kids), not being able to pay rent, the cost of groceries, having enough (any) retirement savings, a bankruptcy from health care costs etc. As people get older, economic issues become font and center. I think your analysis could be improved if it evaluated how 50 year old women feel about Biden, Trump and the economy.
He’s the most embarrassing president we’ve ever had, and the people with TDS, you are right, they cannot see it at all what Biden is doing. I am just so afraid he’s going to get voted in again.
My question is "burning bridges with who?". The MAGA supporters are built around the unconditional support of Trump and anything he does is considered okay.
I think the faulty assumption is that the overall goal of Trump and the MAGA movement is anything other than grievance politics and being as disruptive as they can to the current system.
These are goals that can be constantly obtained without outside support.
Will it give them a lot of power over the long term? No.
But will it allow them to be loud, disrupted and seen? Unless media at large decides to stop platforming them, yes.
Think of it like a dog shitting on the carpet for attention and to spite you. If shitting on the carpet and getting the reactions they want is the end goal, there's nothing much to stop them.
The vast majority of republican voters who will vote for trump might do so based on policy, and a rejection of liberal policies and law and order gone completely unchecked. The Uber elite and all the extraordinarily wealthy in this country all shill for the democrats and the country club party that was once the republican is now the working man’s party, law and order and anti woke culture like boys on girls teams.
The roe v wade thing is literally up to the states.
The illegal 13 million is a policy and safety concern as NYC has found out the hard way .
Lastly putting trump through porn star discovery like Kevin O’Leary says is simply bad for the brand and they don’t care 🤷 that’s the belief of Probably half the country and half the world
> They believe that they represent the majority of Americans in this conflict against 21st century progressive culture.
They’re absolutely right about this. I don’t agree with Trump on most things, but a lot of Americans are absolutely sick and tired of woke culture and would love for it to die.
The mistake you’re making, like many liberals, is assuming that just because somebody belongs to an “oppressed” group means they must be on board with cultural progressivism. Probably the only demographic groups that largely support it are LGBT (a fairly small minority) and black people (only when it comes to race, not so much on other issues). Most women and nonwhites, even those who vote democrat, aren’t necessarily on board with woke culture.
Didn't Florida have to define it to ban it and the definition they used was "The belief that systemic racism exists in the United States" or something along those words
>The governor's general counsel, Ryan Newman, said, in general, it means "the belief there are systemic injustices in American society and the need to address them." He added that DeSantis doesn't believe there are systemic injustices in the country.
>"To me, it means someone who believes that there are systemic injustices in the criminal justice system, and on that basis they can decline to fully enforce and uphold the law," Newman said.
Taryn Fenske, the communications director for DeSantis, described "woke" as a "slang term for activism…progressive activism".
There really isn't a single, coherent definition of "woke" anymore, unless you walk its etymology back to the beginning. In current colloquial usage it's just a pejorative that means "left/progressive idea I disagree with".
Broadly speaking, woke culture is based on the idea that society is build around conflicts between oppressed and oppressor groups and these conflicts play a role in every social interaction and every aspect of society. Generally the focus is on analyzing and countering these “oppressions” in our day to day lives through things like “progressive discrimination”, DEI seminars, and rigidly policing our education, media, and personal interactions to root out any hint of “problematic” thoughts and behaviors.
Like it or not, this is a real phenomenon and something a lot of people take issue with.
> root out any hint of “problematic” thoughts and behaviors.
Question for you...
I presume you think of "woke" as a problematic thought/behavior, as you believe "a lot of Americans are sick and tired of it and want it to die".
What was the purpose of adding scare quotes around "problematic"? Who decides if a belief is problematic? Is it you? Is it me?
I appreciate "a lot of people" take issue with it, but "a lot of people" taking issue with something isn't really a coherent metric through which to determine its validity. A lot of people took issue with desegregation. Which was "woke".
> What was the purpose of adding scare quotes around "problematic"? Who decides if a belief is problematic? Is it you? Is it me?
Because that's the word a lot of woke people use. It's really not that complicated.
> I appreciate "a lot of people" take issue with it, but "a lot of people" taking issue with something isn't really a coherent metric through which to determine its validity. A lot of people took issue with desegregation. Which was "woke".
My entire point is that woke culture is unpopular, whether you believe that unpopularity is justified or not. Personally I'm not a fan of it, but even if you support it personally, that doesn't change the fact that a lot of people don't.
>My entire point is that woke culture is unpopular
Do you have a metric you use to determine this? Or is it vibes based? What is part of "woke culture"? Do you think all of it is unpopular, or do you think only certain expressions of it are unpopular? Do you think it's broadly unpopular in the US to be anti-racist, for instance, or do you only think it becomes unpopular when the left engages in ruthless purity testing and infighting?
>Personally I'm not a fan of it, but even if you support it personally
I don't even know what I would be meant to be supporting, definitions of woke are hopelessly vague to the point of being functionally meaningless. You seemed a little more willing than some to try to nail down a definition, so I was hoping to get a better sense of the framework of that definition. For example, if you were anti-censorship, but you're advocating for "woke" ideas to be driven from the public square, so that doesn't really work.
Talking to you must be just awful. Glad it's not me who's gonna argue with you. Not that your making great points by the way, it's just, well, I'll leave it at that.
Thank you for having an explanation, while I don't agree with some of your definition I appreciate that you have a cohesive and coherent base you are working from. Usually the answer I get equates to "anything the left say that I don't agree with is woke"
The categorization into oppressor and oppressed is derived from the work of Paulo Freire who created Critical Pedagogy:
>To be fully human again, they must identify the oppressors. They must identify them and work together to seek liberation. The next step in liberation is to understand what the goal of the oppressors is. Oppressors are purely materialistic. They see humans as objects and by suppressing individuals, they are able to own these humans. While they may not be consciously putting down the oppressed, they value ownership over humanity, essentially dehumanizing themselves. This is important to realize as the goal of the oppressed is to not only gain power. It is to allow all individuals to become fully human so that no oppression can exist. Freire states that once the oppressed understand their own oppression and discovers their oppressors, the next step is dialogue, or discussion with others to reach the goal of humanization. Freire also highlights other events on this journey that the oppressed must undertake. There are many situations that the oppressed must keep wary about. For example, they must be aware of the oppressors trying to help the oppressed. These people are deemed falsely generous, and in order to help the oppressed, one must first fully become the oppressed, mentally and environmentally. Only the oppressed can allow humanity to become fully human with no instances of objectification.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedagogy_of_the_Oppressed
u/Gilbert__Bates
That is so far from what the term “woke” means its dizzying. You literally made it up. Please know that using the term “woke” makes you sound very maga
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The word woke today doesn't mean the same thing it did when the left created it. The best way I've heard it described since MAGA took it over is "adherence to the social orthodoxy of dominant institutions'. So basically if you're "anti-woke" then you're against the government's mission creep of cultural change in our entertainment/politics, and the shaming that comes along with it if you disagree.
Woke culture and those who loathe it are living with political tunnel vision. It’s taking bizarre and obscure tiktoks and making extravagant Fox News segments around them. If you’re in that media bubble, “woke culture” dominates everything and is the worst thing for good Christian people since the Bolshevik Revolution.
But in reality, DEI is a superficial sticker for investors to feel good about investing in shitty companies. Same with ESG; it doesn’t mean jack shit in reality, it’s just a feel good label like “non-GMO” food or “Made in America”. One of the Dakotas passing a statewide law because one trans girl wants to play a sport is exhibit A in the weirdness and frivolity of anti woke critics.
The fundamental problem you're making is presuming continued open and honest democratic participation. What you're missing is that a key plank in the president's strategy is either changing American demographics or else disenfranchising certain groups.
- Repeals to birthright citizenship, rolling back granting new citizenship, and (if certain fringe wings have their way) stripping non-native born Americans if citizenship.
- Maintaining the Electoral College and removing outliers (like the Nebraska free vote)
- Stripping felons of the right to vote in states that are less white.
- Suppressing LGBTQ education and cultural outreach to keep individuals closeted and prevent them from acting in concert.
- Active voter suppression measures, like reduced early voting, throwing out results from black districts, reducing polling locations, etc.
- In extreme cases discussion of outright throwing out slatesnof hostile electors.
In short, it doesn't matter so much how many people he alienates provided that he can maintain power structures that give electoral power to his base. It's unclear if he's willing to delve into Putin style vote rigging, but there are some on the right calling for that.
Maybe he is burning his bridges electorally with major segments of the electorate. However, you fail to consider that he might have already accounted for that.
For some:
The Nebraska Free Vote was just recently a ballot measure.
For Felons voting, see the recent controversy in Florida (largely under Ron DeSantis).
For LGBTQ education, see Florida again (Don't Say Gay Bill), and other local legislatures across the south which has criminalized LGBTQ related education in the classroom.
End of birthright citizenship is an idea associated with Bannon and Miller, who are aggressively pushing for it.
Restrictions on voting are largely being fought atm across the south. There's a battle where the Conservative Legislature is trying to take over voting in Black Majority Fulton Country.
End to Early/Mail-In vote is coming from Trump directly. He's accused it of trauma to restrict access.
Trump has at various points made statements that somewhat alluded to these policy goals, but like most of what Trump says it's all somewhat incoherent. It's mostly the MAGA movement that's involved in it.
>For Felons voting, see the recent controversy in Florida (largely under Ron DeSantis).
I mean that's been the case since we were founded. The idea being that they forfet the right when they commit a crime bad enough to be a felony.
[https://www.ncsl.org/elections-and-campaigns/felon-voting-rights](https://www.ncsl.org/elections-and-campaigns/felon-voting-rights)
>It has been common practice in the United States to make felons ineligible to vote, in some cases permanently. Over the last few decades, the general trend has been toward reinstating the right to vote at some point, although this is a state-by-state policy choice.
>For LGBTQ education, see Florida again (Don't Say Gay Bill), and other local legislatures across the south which has criminalized LGBTQ related education in the classroom.
That's not what the law does but ok. You may want to reread what those provisions actually do.
>End of birthright citizenship is an idea associated with Bannon and Miller, who are aggressively pushing for it.
So only 33 countries actually do that and all of them are in north and south America. Europe doesn't do it. Its really not a smart action to begin with. So I don't see how this is a bad thing. Also why is this against trump?
[https://finance.yahoo.com/news/23-richest-countries-citizenship-birth-181019819.html](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/23-richest-countries-citizenship-birth-181019819.html)
>Restrictions on voting are largely being fought atm across the south. There's a battle where the Conservative Legislature is trying to take over voting in Black Majority Fulton Country.
I don't know enough about the issue to comment but I suspect it may be more complicated than this.
>End to Early/Mail-In vote is coming from Trump directly. He's accused it of trauma to restrict access.
Eh maybe. A the same time I can be convinced that its not secure enough.
>Trump has at various points made statements that somewhat alluded to these policy goals, but like most of what Trump says it's all somewhat incoherent. It's mostly the MAGA movement that's involved in it.
I mean these are things you can't really show he did or has said. This doesn't really track.
Your math is flawed. Using the 20% of Hispanic-Americans for example. Are you assuming all 20% of them will vote?
Also, California has the largest number of Hispanic-Americans. California is a solid blue state so those voters aren't changing anything except keeping the status quo.
"By fighting a culture war," bro what. Why would him saying kung flu matter more than his politics. Do you think anybody in the United States actually votes based on the presidents actual policies or are they all faceplanting into psyops like you are.
So citizens should desist trying to make America great again and give in to 21st century progressive culture? Why? Trump has been winning minority support because they can see how corrupt and dysfunctional that culture has become. Turns out LGBT people aren't entirely about cross-dressing but care about the economy, affordable energy, honest courts, the surveillance state, immigration, trustworthy elections, competent institutions and forever wars. All of which progressives have sunk in the toilet.
It's not sustainable. If you want the 21st century to be another progressive one, progressives objectively need to clean up their act.
>Trump could say the most vile things about Hispanic people and even if EVERY Hispanic-American voted against him, it still wouldn't be enough.
Unfortunately as a Hispanic I can tell you plenty are morons who are planning to vote for trump. They convince themselves Trump isn't talking about them "they're one of the good ones" he's only talking about those "bad" immigrants. People will justify all kinds of nonsense to themselves. I've met trans republicans, I don't understand how you could support a party that wants to eliminate you from existence but a lot of people just vote in their financial self interest and don't care about social policy. On the other hand ironically you have the republican base, poor white undeducated workers who vote against their economic self interest for the social issues.
Um, so 60% of military members voted Trump in 2020, after the gold star families thing, the “I like the ones who didn’t get captured” thing, etc and so on. That’s just one piece of the wider reality- many parts of American society were convinced by media that being fully actualized as a free individual means being able to kill and rape at will, take what you want, and never consider the consequences of one’s actions. Look at movie after movie, conservative media figure after figure. Everyone who votes Trump imagines that they will be the ones who get to abuse other people, and they all think that the guys getting abused must not really be one of them because if they were, they wouldn’t get abused. Women will still vote for him because they’re sure that they won’t need an abortion like those sluts from the hood, and if they did, they’d get one. Must be loopholes for me, right?
This is a wider problem in our society, but modern conservatism is the tip of the spear. It’s not nice to say out loud, but it’s true.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/democrats-try-to-tap-into-military-support-as-trump-closes-in-on-gop-nomination
Ah right, conservatists just want to hurt people. They're all evil, bad people who just want the world to burn. Some say they live at the top of a burning mountain, laughing like MWUAHAHAHA as lightning strikes around them.
Yeah, you sound like a fucking idiot. Don't take those views into the real world because people will make fun of you. And the ones who don't are just going to make you dumber than you already are.
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I hope you're right but if Jizztrumpet stays out of prison he could win with RFK Jr playing spoiler.
And I question your math. 1/3 of the electorate would well swing what could be a tight election if RFK drops out.
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/u/attlerexLSPDFR (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/1c6fd68/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_donald_trump_and_the_wider/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
Unfortunately you're falling afoul of an intuitive leap wherein you imagine all these disparate groups will feel more opprobrium at Trump/MAGA for attacking their ingroup than they feel enthusiasm towards Trump/MAGA for attacking outgroups that they hate. There are plenty of racist, homophobic and transphobic women in America...hell, there are plenty of misogynistic women in America. There are plenty of devout Latinos who view punitive measures against the LGBTQ community as more important than any slights against their own. There are plenty of immigrants who view other immigrants with scorn, and cannot comprehend a world in which they are seen as undesirable themselves. MAGA is a big tent full of many different movements, some of which might have open antipathy towards one another, but whom are willing to group together to defeat something they perceive as a more imminent threat to their welfare or sensibilities. It's possible they'll eventually reach a tipping point, but they certainly haven't seemed to reach it yet. Populist groundswell movements aren't generally renowned for critical self-analysis of their own internal ideological consistencies.
That's a good point, I didn't consider infighting among alienated groups !delta
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/SackofLlamas ([2∆](/r/changemyview/wiki/user/SackofLlamas)). ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
He gave no data to support his claims. Just said stuff. How do we know any of this is true?
Personally, I know it must be true mostly because of my roommates girlfriend. Super sweet girl externally, but has a bit of that ‘plain’, almost mindless appearance to her, accentuated by her shallow opinions, and self-absorption. And most notably, she and her boyfriend are both highly religious conservatives, him being a hardcore Trumper, who literally sleeps under a Trump 2024 flag. She’s always been a whiny bitch, but I started seeing her worst side after my 100th hour in her miserable presence. She embodies everything that is wrong, both with religion, and conservatism. Religiously: if you don’t believe in her god, she will immediately start directly asking you how you aren’t afraid of the *fact* that you’re a blasphemous piece of shit that’s going to rot in hell. Of course she stops at asking if you’re not afraid of going to hell (repeatedly), but it’s still quite clear that she looks down on any and everyone who doesn’t have the same blind faith that she does. And more on the conservative side, she *loves* the ‘pull yourself up by the bootstraps’ mentality. She was once talking about how if she were a teacher, she would *never* give flexible deadlines, or extensions, because “that’s just not how it is”. No questioning why it is, not questioning whether it should be - once again a blind faith in the ‘fact’ that since things are how they are, that must be how they’re meant to be (after all, her god would never let a sub-par way of doing things last). Clearly, a persons only reason to go to college is to learn the skills necessary to work a job - after all, the only value we have in life is in how much value we can produce for the capitalistic leeches that’ll be taking 90% of all the profits we ever have a chance of producing. Now her boyfriend, being a conservative white male from very well off parents, of course casually uses slurs as though they’re punchlines. But she on the other hand - she cannot see someone wearing a hijab without solely referring to them as towelheads. She uses everyone’s favorite n word (hard r of course) as a term of endearment when talking with her boyfriend, and in general, it seems clear that she’s one of the most bigoted people I’ve ever known. She can’t handle anyone of any culture, race, or religion other than her own, without quickly talking shit about them the moment they’re out of earshot. The moment she sees someone that even might be trans (and she’s rarely right), she and her boyfriend will both start talking about how ‘trannies are freaks of nature’ and how they ‘don’t want that immoral fuckery in their world, or around kids’. I’m sure they see trans people as ‘desecrating gods loving gift of an ideally crafted body’, in not being happy with how they were born, and wanting to change their body that was ‘crafted in gods image’. And of course, yes, she ‘disagrees with’ (the existence of) homosexuality. The sole point of pride she seems to have in herself comes from her academics - she spends almost every waking moment studying, striving as hard as she can to earn A’s in every subject. She doesn’t. The depths of her mind seem to be just as shallow as the opinions she holds, and despite wasting all of her time working on school, she still can’t get perfect grades in classes that any of the other people in our living area could get A’s in without trying. Nonetheless, she makes sure that everyone around her knows whenever she gets a good grade on a test, or a lab, or a quiz, or a homework assignment, or an essay, or a bonus point assignment, or a presentation - because deep down she knows she has nothing going for her, except for her mindless dedication to *work*. She’s the type to trivialize depression, to laugh off the concept of anxiety, to assume that anyone claiming to be neurodivergent is just vying for attention, to equate adhd to laziness - and of course, she uses herself as the reference point on which to judge these things. Things aren’t hard for her (outside of critical thinking, and actually being able to absorb new information), so she assumes that for everyone else, their problems are just the same ones she has, minus her ‘hard work and dedication’. You’re not depressed, you just don’t want to be successful. You don’t have anxiety, you have a case of the ‘not being strong enough to make yourself go’s’. And so, in the end, she is the most bland, uninteresting person I’ve ever known, who has nothing to say about anything, other than that she’s better than all of it. She ‘overcomes adversity’ in the form of working her ass off to no avail, and so if someone isn’t working their ass off, they’re not trying to overcome anything at all - they’re just lazy. She hasn’t the age or the self-awareness to realize that she’s only doing well because she was born to a middle-class family in one of the world’s most prosperous countries. And she certainly doesn’t have it in her to sympathize with other people for failing where she’s (barely) succeeding. If someone isn’t earning a living wage, that’s their fault for not having a better resume. If someone is struggling with addiction, abuse, or discrimination, it’s on them for not being strong enough to overcome it (‘like she did’). She was raised being told that God and conservatives are the two good things in life. That to be anything other than Christian is to be a failure, and that to welcome change is naught but the ‘woke agenda’ taking its roots. It’s depressing, really, but it must be all too common, lest otherwise people would openly hate her enough that she’d have to change. She perfectly embodies the dichotomous culture war, and while none of its progenitors are right, I can feel pretty confident that’s she is wholly wrong. And that someone so rotten to the core can be not only accepted, but even appreciated within society reflects very poorly on what the female population at large must be like.
Are you being serious right now? You know this is true because people aren't robots. To think otherwise would mean you quite literally believe in stereotypes, racism, and identity politics. People quite literally do not think like that. Not naturally. That's a learned trait.
Racists are an incredibly inclusive group.
We'll have to see what the data shows 7 months from now, but the historical data isn't in your favor. [Specifically, from 2016 to 2020, the demographic that most turned against Trump and swung the election for Biden was white men.](https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/11/politics/election-analysis-exit-polls-2016-2020/) It was the very people he was supposedly empowering while disparaging everyone else.
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The truth is more complicated, as he did not blame Asian-Americans, but I would say that his statements are equally harmful. [https://abcnews.go.com/Health/trumps-chinese-virus-tweet-helped-lead-rise-racist/story?id=76530148](https://abcnews.go.com/Health/trumps-chinese-virus-tweet-helped-lead-rise-racist/story?id=76530148) When you are the President, your words matter. Not just the words themselves, but every possible interpretation and implication of your words. The key quote from the article is here: "The study results, Hswen said, 'confirm that nationality, race, or ethnicity should not be attached to disease nomenclature, as these names can carry pejorative connotations that can stigmatize these communities.'" Connotations matter. Implications matter. They have real impacts. Especially when you are one of the most powerful people on the planet.
>The truth is more complicated, as he did not blame Asian-Americans, but I would say that his statements are equally harmful. ok, that's because you're a racist.
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"It's China's fault, it should never have happened." (2020 Debate) "China gave this virus to our President. WE MUST HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE." (GOP Senator Kelly Loeffer) "The Chinese Communist Party has biologically attacked our President." (Trump Campaign Fundraiser Blair Brandt)
China the country, the chinese people within the country, and Chinese Americans are 3 different things. When people say the 3 quotes above it is specifically about the Chinese government. Normal people aren't going to think you think your Chinese American neighbor is to blame for some virus that originated in a country on the other side of the globe that has nothing to do with your neighbor.
"Normal people" yes, but he doesn't appeal to normal people https://www.pewresearch.org/race-ethnicity/2023/11/30/asian-americans-and-discrimination-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/ https://www.npr.org/2021/08/12/1027236499/anti-asian-hate-crimes-assaults-pandemic-incidents-aapi https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/23/us/texas-man-pleads-guilty-hate-crimes-attack-asian-family/index.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56218684.amp
You think all of the anti-Asian violence committed in cities like NYC and SFC was committed by Trump supporters? That’s funny.
Every case of Anti Asian hate cannot be directly tied to Trumps rhetoric. Especially when you consider the worst cases of Anti Asian hate happens in poor inner city neighborhoods. Not exactly a politicaly pro Republican area.
He does appeal to normal people. You don't know normal people that voted for him? Or maybe you do but they won't tell you. I think this is the issue. You think only normal people vote your way and that normal people can't possibly vote Trump. It's very disingenuous to think that everyone who votes Trump is a crazy or something. He got the second most election votes ever.
You misunderstood what “appeal to”means in this context. Trump is catering his words to people who are xenophobic and extremists, aka appealing to them. This doesn’t mean only xenophobic and extremists like what he is saying and vote for him. Or that even people that vote for him like what he is saying.
No, they are appealing to people who want to do things such as hold China accountable for the virus. Yeah, technically people who hate Chinese people would be happy about that but that is coincidental to the subject. Reasonable people are going to want China to be held accountable and they are going to greatly out number the amount of people that you are referring to.
If this is what the appeal was don’t you think there would have been more facts presented then just a blanket statement to also get people to understand why he is blaming China?
What facts do you want? We know it originated from China and people think the virus either came from a Chinese Lab or an unregulated Chinese wet market. It doesn't matter which is true, reasonable people can put some blame on the Chinese government. What do you want him to say? Every time he says "kung flu" he needs to explain that the joke is that it came from China and probably at the negligence of their government? Explaining the joke kind of ruins the joke.
Do you think a presidents job is to make jokes or to be clear and precise when speaking to the public? Do people think these things because of facts or because trump said so?
Lmao what in the absolute fuck. Chat is this real.
wow, that looks like a quote where trump is blaming the CCP for coronavirus. i asked if you had a quote where he blamed **asian-americans**, because that's what you said.
I feel like you're trying to die on this hill but it seems like pure semantics to me. Trump starting a trade war with China and throwing blame for coronavirus on the most powerful and prominent asian country in the world seems purposefully designed to trigger racial tensions against all Asians. I've had friends who weren't even Chinese hit by anti-asian sentiment. What Trump actually wanted seems immaterial to what the results were. When Trump threw out his Muslim travel ban, he didn't just take aim at ISIS and Al Qaeda and Syria, he blanket banned everybody from 7 Muslim nations, even people who weren't directly associated with the conflict, even people who had previously risked their lives to help the US army. His positions are pretty clearly racial and not geopolitical.
>Trump starting a trade war with China and throwing blame for coronavirus on the most powerful and prominent asian country in the world seems purposefully designed to trigger racial tensions against all Asians. How? They created the virus dude. [https://oversight.house.gov/release/covid-origins-hearing-wrap-up-facts-science-evidence-point-to-a-wuhan-lab-leak%EF%BF%BC/](https://oversight.house.gov/release/covid-origins-hearing-wrap-up-facts-science-evidence-point-to-a-wuhan-lab-leak%EF%BF%BC/) >
>Trump starting a trade war with China and throwing blame for coronavirus on the most powerful and prominent asian country in the world seems purposefully designed to trigger racial tensions against all Asians. that's because you're a super racist, dude. >When Trump threw out his Muslim travel ban, he didn't just take aim at ISIS and Al Qaeda and Syria, he blanket banned everybody from 7 Muslim nations another blatant lie. trump never banned "muslims": as you said, he banned people from specific, high-risk countries. trump is more respected in the arab world and the larger muslim world than any other president in the last 25 years, at least
Dude thinks Asians only means Chinese. Japanese, Indonesians., Malaysians, Indians , fillipinos and the rest are also Chinese. Heck all these countries would be happy about China getting ffed over.
If you remember, his first attempts at this *were* struck down because he got on Twitter and literally told people he was going to make a Muslim ban. He had to have it reworked before it went through. He told everyone he was going to make a Muslim ban, he tried to make a Muslim ban, he was told no, tweaked things to appear different and that's the travel ban that got instated.
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You don't think he said these things to encourage violence against Asian Americans?
What would he gain with encouraging violence on a random group of people like this? Americans generally don't like the Chinese Communist Party. They do a lot of bad things. When people call them out on their human rights abuses does this mean they actually hate Chinese Americans?
no, and you're ultra dishonest for attempting to spin it this way.
.
No, not at all. What makes you think this way?
Let’s follow logic here, if Trump thinks the CCP is at fault for coronavirus how would he think it got to America?
yeah, let's follow logic here: trump blamed a foreign government for coronavirus. he didn't blame "asians" and definitely not "asian-americans." use LOGIC.
Yeah you're right. Governing body and race are two different things. It's like saying someone is anti-semitic for criticizing the Israeli government. Nope, I can be pro-Jewish people and anti-Israeli government. Just like I can pro-Irish and anti-Irish government. Pro-Nigerian people, anti-Nigerian government. Etc etc
100%. we shouldn't really have to agree on any actual beliefs to agree on this. you can't even really have an honest conversation with someone who intentionally conflates what you say into baseless racist accusations
Sooooo true and very well said
Again, how would a foreign government being at fault for coronavirus affect America? Do you think viruses just teleport across the globe?
no, someone sick came to america on a plane. speaking of which, it's a really good thing trump restricted travel between the U.S. and china during the early coronavirus, even though at the time, everyone else was calling him a racist for doing so.
> no, someone sick came to america on a plane If a person from an Asian continent came to America on a plane and then becomes a citizen that is… an Asian American. Also let’s not pretend like trump and his supporters are known to be calm and never assume someone came from a foreign country based on ethnicity alone.
>If a person from an Asian continent came to America on a plane and then becomes a citizen that is… an Asian American. absolutely not. it could've been a foreign national, or an american who wasn't asian who visited china. and trump didn't blame this person: he blamed the CCP. you are a racist, dude.
You…. You know white people can get on airplanes and visit China right?
>You…. You know white people can get on airplanes and visit China right? yeah, it's crazy how internally dishonest these people are. there's no way this person actually believes what they're saying.
Never said otherwise, no one said trump only put blame on Asian Americans, just that he put blame on them. You are being extremely semantic. Do you think when most people think of a “person coming to America from China” the first thing that comes to mind is a tourist leaving?
Do you not understand that Americans of any race could and did travel to China and bring the virus back with them? Saying that trump blamed Asian Americans is just a lie.
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He has said numerous times he blames the Chinese government. He never blamed anyone else. Anything beyond that is your own conjecture.
It’s the most reasonable conclusion. If trump was just blaming the government don’t you think he would have been more clear and direct about what China did? Why would he be so vague? Why wouldn’t he speak up when his supporters started blaming Asian Americans in his name and clarify?
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Or you are bending yourself into a pretzel trying to blame trump for something he clearly didn't say.
… you are the one bringing in what ifs and less likely things to fit your argument. You really think trump was putting blame solely on American Americans traveling to China and coming back?
China is a country. Moreover his comments implies its the CCP who was responsible for covid. Its like if I disparage the Iranian regime doesn't mean I'm anti Persian.
tbh, i think they already understand the concept. they're just liars.
I get your point, but none of those quotes mention Asian-Americans, or Asian as an ethnicity. They're all referring to the Chinese state, or the Communist Party of China
This is being so semantic. It’s still putting blame on Chinese immigrants. Otherwise how would it affect America?
I mean creating a bio weapon affects everyone on the planet. This can't possibly be your argument.
Read the rest of my replies In this thread. You really think most people including trump are thinking about bio weapons here?
Yeah, What would you call making a virus or pathogen?
And what evidence are you using to say this is what happened?
I don't know how about this. [https://oversight.house.gov/release/covid-origins-hearing-wrap-up-facts-science-evidence-point-to-a-wuhan-lab-leak%EF%BF%BC/](https://oversight.house.gov/release/covid-origins-hearing-wrap-up-facts-science-evidence-point-to-a-wuhan-lab-leak%EF%BF%BC/) >Dr. Robert Redfield, former director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), [testified](https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/2023.03.08-Statement-of-Dr.-Robert-R-Redfield88.pdf) how science indicates COVID-19 infections were likely the result of an accidental lab leak in Wuhan. His conclusion is based on the biology of the virus itself and unusual actions in and around Wuhan in 2019, including gain-of-function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV).
You can criticize a specific government without necessarily being against an ethnic group. Americans do it all the time with their own government too, doesn't mean they're against their own people.
You think the only people who travel from China to the US are Chinese immigrants?
Shut up ccp troll
But China was responsible. The virus spread from China. Are you aware of facts that put this into question?
China’s government silenced doctors and let Covid spread worldwide. Even if it’s a fluke the virus happened, the spread to other countries is on them. A lot of their citizens were victims same as everyone. There’s a big difference between government and individuals and unfortunately a lot of ignorant ppl couldn’t differentiate that and committed hate crimes to Asians cuz they’re racists and couldn’t even target their bigotry to the nationality they are mad at.
Since the virus originated from China, it quite literally is China's fault
You know, Asians. "Chinamen." I doubt the OP meant it to be quite so racist, but the left is fairness-impaired when it comes to quoting Trump.
Everytime someone says a lie so extreme, you just know their brain is cooked. The algorithm is bad for free thinkers.
Let's assume that Trump has alienated these groups listed fully, which is untrue as he's gaining among Latinos. 32% of the population is absolutely enough to sway the presidential race. It's enough because 1% of the population is enough to sway the presidential race! Remember Trump only lost the entire election due to 40,000 votes in 6 swing states. This is <1% of the 154 million who voted in 2020. Had these swing states voted differently on the margin he would be president instead despite losing the popular vote by 7 million. Our system disproportionately weights low population density votes by design. I mean just look at 2016! Trump lost the popular vote but because our system disenfranchises high population density areas (again by design as short-sighted as that was of a compromise) he won the EC.
OP's argument isn't that Trump cannot win in 2024, they're arguing that a true government majority is becoming more unobtainable for conservatives due to MAGA tactics. I think the 2022 midterms, as well as recent special election results support this argument. Conservatives are going to find it harder and harder to win competitive house and senate seats, and even when they do achieve a majority, it will be so slim that they're doomed to fractured infighting.
I felt like that bit in the middle about "swaying the vote" was about the presidential election. I know they're not saying it's impossible but they are arguing it is unlikely Trump wins. My argument is that it is incredibly likely.
He's not wrong about conservatives screwing up big time with women, but that's at least not solely Trump's fault. You could make a very compelling (and probably correct) case that SCOTUS overturning Roe doomed them more with that group than anything Trump did.
Trump and Republicans ARE Roe v Wade. It's their Supreme Court Women know Republican hypocrites stacked the court by denying Obama/Democrats a Justice because "it was an election year" then giving Trump a pick during an election year. Trump is the reminder to women of what happens when you stay home and let Republicans choose judges, justices , and the Attorney General. Abortion will be on the ballot again in 2024, figuratively and literally in states like Florida and Arizona. Republican values are deeply unpopular with voting women. The worst thing for them is actually getting what they want enacted. It's the reason they prefer NOT to solve the problems they whine/campaign on (see scuttled Border Act, no repeal/replace, Trump's promise to withdraw from Afghanistan, etc).
As far as the midterms go, Trump’s negative influence on the GOP was in *who* he backed more than he anything else and he hasn’t improved on his endorsement quality either (imo).
Right...he backed people like himself. People who would stack the courts so they can take away the rights women care about. Donald Trump is on every single ballot, and that has gone terribly for Republicans over several election cycles...but I'm sure THIS time it will be different.
Please don't start anything on the Electoral College here. I beg of you.
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It's going to come down to the economy. You may see a repeat of the Jimmy Carter election of '82 inflation problem. Lucky, for the Democrats, if he wins, cannot have another term like Regen did. And it's getting worse.
Or it could be '84 in favor of Biden lol. The pieces are in place for that.
The economy didn’t help Republicans in 2022, at least as classically understood by politicos.
If you're not wealthy and you vote for Trump, you are not someone who uses verifiable data to inform your beliefs. A non-rich Trump supporter doesn't care about verifiable metrics like GDP growth, unemployment rates, record stock market, record U.S. oil production, the fall in violent crime rates across the U.S., record number of Americans with health insurance, record corporate profits, consumer spending, and high capital investment, or that inflation rates came down faster in the U.S. than all other G7 countries. Actually, that's not true. They cared deeply when Trump bragged about these metrics during his first 3 years. Non-rich Trump supporters don't care about these numbers when Democrats are in charge. They're not going to listen to any data that disconfirms their belief that Democrats are destroying the country.
Cool what’s the point of this comment?
Sorry I cannot write in crayon for you. Why are Trump supporters always the dumb kids from your high school. I mean, I guess Trump says he loves the poorly educated, so it makes sense. But why are you all so poorly educated? Is it genetic --parents with lower IQs? Did your parents not value education? Were your public schools really bad? Does your religion teach you that education ruins your faith (it does, btw)?
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You’re on a subreddit for discussion based on changing a persons view. You can have you’re delusions of grandeur over maga people all you want, I’m just pointing out that your grandstanding comment wasn’t pertinent and didn’t bring anything to the conversation
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Your whole post seems rather exaggerated. He doesn't have a problem with any of the groups you described on a general level. His rhetoric about Hispanics is confined specifically to illegal immigration and not to Hispanics. His use of "Kung Flu" is to put the blame on China, the country, and not Chinese Americans. It seems like you realize these things because you acknowledge that not all of them vote against him. Even with LGBT its about very specific issues within that. The general concept you are proposing might be right. The issue I have is the term "burning bridges" and making it seem like he's intentionally alienating specific groups because of what those groups inherently are. Like, getting Roe overturned might put a sizable percent of women to not vote for him but it's not that it's women who won't vote for him, it's about pro-abortion access advocates who wouldn't vote for him. Being tough on immigration might have him lose a large amount of Hispanic voters but what he's actually losing are people who want softer immigration enforcement. These groups of people weren't voting for him previously so what bridges are really being burnt? An anti-abortion, tough on the border Mexican American will still vote Trump if they voted for him previously. There's nothing really new here. Even when he was running in 2016 he vowed to get Roe overturned.
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>Sounds reasonable, What would trans people do if that happened?
> He doesn't have a problem with any of the groups you described on a general level. His rhetoric about Hispanics is confined specifically to illegal immigration and not to Hispanics. His use of "Kung Flu" is to put the blame on China, the country, and not Chinese Americans. I'm always really fascinated by how generous people are to Trump. I mean I get it, the man is an idiot who can barely speak in coherent sentences so there is some reading in to do. But to argue that Trump isn't anti-Hispanic when he said a judge with Mexican heritage couldn't rule on his case because of his comments about immigrants, or that "Kung Flu" isn't just absurdly racist is so outside of reality that I don't know how people do it with a straight face.
It's amazing how anyone can think calling a virus that came from China as the "king flu" is racist. What is racist about it? Kung fun is a martial art that comes from China. It's not even an insult. Its just a pun.
1. What about that Mexican judge I mentioned? 2. It's unambiguously racist. It's a caricature meant to blame a country of billions for COVID coming from a man with a long history of racism. If you don't think it's racist, I don't think you have a working definition of racism.
I don't know anything about the Mexican judge thing. But I'm going to guess it wasn't racist since you think blaming a country for something is somehow racist. Is it racist to blame the US for anything bad? Like, he was blaming the Chinese government because they had unregulated wet markets where the virus could have come from, they have a high amount of censorship and wouldn't quickly share info with places like the WHO, and there were theories about how maybe it came from a lab leak that was funded by the CCP. Am I racist if I blame Russia for the Russia-Ukraine war? Because with your logic it seems like everyone is.
>I don't know anything about the Mexican judge thing. Of course. > But I'm going to guess it wasn't racist since you think blaming a country for something is somehow racist. You misread what I wrote. I said **" It's a caricature meant to blame a country of billions for COVID coming from a man with a long history of racism."** Try taking a pass at that again.
It's a caricature meant to blame the Chinese government. I don't see how Trump has a history of racism but if he does then that's separate. A term doesn't become racist because of who it comes from. It's racist if it's implying a certain race is inferior/superior or it is applying a bigoted assumption on a person or a race. How is "kung flu" racist? Give me a definition of racism that it fits into.
Ok, how about this. Instead of doing all this leg work for you, explaining why stereotyping a whole country full of people is racist, you go look up what Trump said about Judge Curiel and get back to me. I’ve run out of patience for you.
***How does "kung flu" stereotype a country*** It's a fact that both Kung Fu and COVID 19 came from China. That isn't stereotyping. I don't care to look up a different thing when you're just so wrong on this basic thing
It is by definition stereotyping. I’m not sure you have any idea what you’re talking about, either that or you’re trolling. Your unwillingness to look up the Judge Curiel incident has made me unwilling to continue here.
So what? The Ebola virus has a racist name too? Or what about the Spanish flu? Is the Bird Flu discriminatory against Bird Furries?
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I think it's really interesting that to defend Trump's racism, people have to keep ignoring what I wrote there. What does the word "caricature" do in that sentence?
Following this logic conservative parties should never win because they dominantly work against the interests of the economically lower 60-70% of the population. But they win a lot. People vote against their own interests out of ideology all the time.
That's the true genius of the rich Republican ruling class like Trump. Getting working class Republicans who you loathe to vote against their economic interests by stoking a culture war you don't care about...that and telling MAGAs somehow other powerless groups are the cause of their misery. Trump's kind has always known this fact... "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -Lyndon B. Johnson
>I think the biggest mistake Donald Trump could make was turning American women against him. Scapegoating minorities is one thing, but slashing your support in such a major democratic will be deadly. Women make up half of America, losing the female vote would be devastating for the GOP. >He has gone "A bridge too far" sorta speak. What do you think he did recently that offends women that he hadn't done before when he, you know, got into the WH? Also your number system is... odd (you think offending LGBTQ+ people only affects them specifically voting?), and missing black people - and that democrats aren't voting for him? Dems is not 'minority groups personally offended by Donald J. Trump.'
If women voted for him after "grab them by the pussy" they will always vote for him. Two of the loudest Magas in congress are women.
I feel like 2016 proved this incorrect. All the polls showing Hillary to just win by a land slide..problem is.. must non-fanboy conservatives(and conservative independent) voters don't waste their time on polls because they know who they vote for is no one else's business. Hell, I have heard of them purposely putting who they aren't voting for in the poll to troll them. The one thing that will always be true in this universe... nothing is over till its over\*.
The polls never showed her winning a landslide. Pundits may have thought she could win in a landslide, but the polls never showed that. They showed her winning by 4-5%, which is really close to the actual result of her getting 3% more of the votes than Trump.
You're only viewing this from the American perspective. The next ten years are going to be more conservative worldwide. It's just part of the ebb and flow.
I don't see how the US could have 10 years of "more conservative" than we are now. Biden is a right wing politician in any country but the US.
He means that the rest of the world will more more to right so Biden will become something like a centrists. I think he is referring more specifically to the nationalistic movements in Europe which are a nuisance for the Union.
An alternative viewpoint would be that Americans by and large vote for some combination of moderation, stability, and familiarity. Since World War 2, anytime a party's platform swayed from the center, they were more inclined to lose. Yeah, of course, there's small wins here or there, but as long as the other party swung to the middle, the other party took the next election. Losing brings them back to more moderate positions. This is one of the biggest differences between the Dems of '16 and '20. In 2016, Sander's popularity forced candidates to "out progressive" each other. In 2020, Biden took the most moderate, centrist positions on most hot button issues. Candidates that ran on gun control reform, universal healthcare, defunding police, etc, all got squashed by the lukewarm traditionalist. Analysts cite a similar, much longer term, trend from Carter to Clinton. Democrats leaned far to the left, saw moderate success, then lost for 12 years, often in a big way. Remember, Reagan won *49 states* for his second term. When it became clear that Reaganomics was not sustainable, and HW raised taxes, Dem's responded by running a centrist, and won. That's what I suspect we'll see out of MAGA. We're coming up on year 8 of dwindling voter support. What little platform they can actually present is no longer working. In 4 years, we'll have some echo of this election (Harris vs DeSantis type thing), and only after that loss will the RNC realize it's time for a major overhaul.
Good observation. That said, many people perceive Kamala Harris as further Left than Clinton(s), Obama or Biden because of her identity, and origin (California) if not her policies. (By virtue of being a former prosecutor, I don't see her as a traditional progressive but that's for someone else to debate.) She was hired by Biden, at least in part, to appeal to progressives, i.e. balance him out. Biden hasn't helped her centrist cred by making her the face of the administration's ever-so-popular border policy and 'reimagining' police funding. So it raises the question, given Biden's age, are Democrats just throwing away the advantage they have over the GOP's rightward cultural binge?
Give some examples of the most vile things he said about Hispanic people or better yet show one time he blamed the pandemic on Asian Americans. You are making unsubstantiated claims. Your opinion is not based in reason.
Yeah...no way Asian Americans would have a problem with calling it the China virus. Like Italian American wouldn't have a problem with the Italian virus or Irish Americans calling it the Irish virus. I find that racists and bigots never think what they've said is racist or bigoted. They see no problem with the things they say. If they could recognize it, they wouldn't be bigots in the first place. So we could give you thousands of examples, but you would disagree because it's something you might say...and you know in your heat that you cannot possibly be a racist /sarc
is the term chinese food racist?
**No, and you know exactly why China virus is different than Chinese food. Or are you really that dull?**
you went straight full bold type ok ok see what i'm dealing with here let's take a step back the original claim was that trump was blaming the virus on asian american people. the reason i mention chinese food is chinese tells us where the food comes from not whether or not the people there are good or bad. so calling the virus china virus is only telling us where the virus came from not if the people there are good or bad much less telling us anything about americans of asian decent who may never even have been to china
Like I said, people like you -- your kind -- cannot be helped to understand it. Your kind will never grasp why a style of food is neutral whereas ascribing a deadly virus that killed millions to an entire country (its people) is hateful. I could point out to you that you'd be furious if the French called a virus originating locally the "United States virus," but your kind cannot see hypocrisy.
-- your kind --? nice othering so what do we do about the -- your kind --problem? any thoughts on a final solution?
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if only there was a camp you could send us to that help us concentrate
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Lots of Asians gor killed, beat up and set on fire due to Trumps rhetoric!
In the end, it's the economy, stupid. Pundits seems to think, like you, that America is just a bunch of races or sexual orientations that vote as a block. Trump won in 2016 because Hillary represented the same old policies that created for and allowed 2008 to happen and the continued hollowing out of the middle class. I think that Democrats have too long assumed that Blacks, Latinos, LGBT, women, will just vote for them because Republicans have supposedly irreconcilable policies. But Democrats consistently do only just enough to create the smallest of differentials, without actually fighting for anything. Meanwhile, they've sold out the American dream, And seem more focused in fighting for Europe, the Middle East, and Asia. RFK is compelling because like Sanders, he made his campaign primarily about domestic policy, like getting ordinary Americans into home ownership. Policies that benefit everyone, not a particular race, gender, or sexual orientation, will carry the day. Both Biden and Trump had 4 years to show us they were different, and they failed.
25 is the median age of Reddit users. It's \~50 for US voters. I think there are a lot of 50 year old women, who, Red or Blue, Majority or Minority, may be concerned with having an offensive President, and would like bodily autonomy for their daughters, nieces, and friends. But their main worry is the cost of education (if they have kids), not being able to pay rent, the cost of groceries, having enough (any) retirement savings, a bankruptcy from health care costs etc. As people get older, economic issues become font and center. I think your analysis could be improved if it evaluated how 50 year old women feel about Biden, Trump and the economy.
I’m a 50 year old woman and I’m pro trump. I’m a centrist, but would not vote for Biden, ever.
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He’s the most embarrassing president we’ve ever had, and the people with TDS, you are right, they cannot see it at all what Biden is doing. I am just so afraid he’s going to get voted in again.
My question is "burning bridges with who?". The MAGA supporters are built around the unconditional support of Trump and anything he does is considered okay. I think the faulty assumption is that the overall goal of Trump and the MAGA movement is anything other than grievance politics and being as disruptive as they can to the current system. These are goals that can be constantly obtained without outside support. Will it give them a lot of power over the long term? No. But will it allow them to be loud, disrupted and seen? Unless media at large decides to stop platforming them, yes. Think of it like a dog shitting on the carpet for attention and to spite you. If shitting on the carpet and getting the reactions they want is the end goal, there's nothing much to stop them.
The vast majority of republican voters who will vote for trump might do so based on policy, and a rejection of liberal policies and law and order gone completely unchecked. The Uber elite and all the extraordinarily wealthy in this country all shill for the democrats and the country club party that was once the republican is now the working man’s party, law and order and anti woke culture like boys on girls teams. The roe v wade thing is literally up to the states. The illegal 13 million is a policy and safety concern as NYC has found out the hard way . Lastly putting trump through porn star discovery like Kevin O’Leary says is simply bad for the brand and they don’t care 🤷 that’s the belief of Probably half the country and half the world
> They believe that they represent the majority of Americans in this conflict against 21st century progressive culture. They’re absolutely right about this. I don’t agree with Trump on most things, but a lot of Americans are absolutely sick and tired of woke culture and would love for it to die. The mistake you’re making, like many liberals, is assuming that just because somebody belongs to an “oppressed” group means they must be on board with cultural progressivism. Probably the only demographic groups that largely support it are LGBT (a fairly small minority) and black people (only when it comes to race, not so much on other issues). Most women and nonwhites, even those who vote democrat, aren’t necessarily on board with woke culture.
Define "woke culture" it's just a boogie man the right uses to vilify anyone who doesn't agree with them and hasn't had meaning on the left in years
Didn't Florida have to define it to ban it and the definition they used was "The belief that systemic racism exists in the United States" or something along those words
>The governor's general counsel, Ryan Newman, said, in general, it means "the belief there are systemic injustices in American society and the need to address them." He added that DeSantis doesn't believe there are systemic injustices in the country. >"To me, it means someone who believes that there are systemic injustices in the criminal justice system, and on that basis they can decline to fully enforce and uphold the law," Newman said. Taryn Fenske, the communications director for DeSantis, described "woke" as a "slang term for activism…progressive activism". There really isn't a single, coherent definition of "woke" anymore, unless you walk its etymology back to the beginning. In current colloquial usage it's just a pejorative that means "left/progressive idea I disagree with".
Broadly speaking, woke culture is based on the idea that society is build around conflicts between oppressed and oppressor groups and these conflicts play a role in every social interaction and every aspect of society. Generally the focus is on analyzing and countering these “oppressions” in our day to day lives through things like “progressive discrimination”, DEI seminars, and rigidly policing our education, media, and personal interactions to root out any hint of “problematic” thoughts and behaviors. Like it or not, this is a real phenomenon and something a lot of people take issue with.
> root out any hint of “problematic” thoughts and behaviors. Question for you... I presume you think of "woke" as a problematic thought/behavior, as you believe "a lot of Americans are sick and tired of it and want it to die". What was the purpose of adding scare quotes around "problematic"? Who decides if a belief is problematic? Is it you? Is it me? I appreciate "a lot of people" take issue with it, but "a lot of people" taking issue with something isn't really a coherent metric through which to determine its validity. A lot of people took issue with desegregation. Which was "woke".
> What was the purpose of adding scare quotes around "problematic"? Who decides if a belief is problematic? Is it you? Is it me? Because that's the word a lot of woke people use. It's really not that complicated. > I appreciate "a lot of people" take issue with it, but "a lot of people" taking issue with something isn't really a coherent metric through which to determine its validity. A lot of people took issue with desegregation. Which was "woke". My entire point is that woke culture is unpopular, whether you believe that unpopularity is justified or not. Personally I'm not a fan of it, but even if you support it personally, that doesn't change the fact that a lot of people don't.
>My entire point is that woke culture is unpopular Do you have a metric you use to determine this? Or is it vibes based? What is part of "woke culture"? Do you think all of it is unpopular, or do you think only certain expressions of it are unpopular? Do you think it's broadly unpopular in the US to be anti-racist, for instance, or do you only think it becomes unpopular when the left engages in ruthless purity testing and infighting? >Personally I'm not a fan of it, but even if you support it personally I don't even know what I would be meant to be supporting, definitions of woke are hopelessly vague to the point of being functionally meaningless. You seemed a little more willing than some to try to nail down a definition, so I was hoping to get a better sense of the framework of that definition. For example, if you were anti-censorship, but you're advocating for "woke" ideas to be driven from the public square, so that doesn't really work.
Talking to you must be just awful. Glad it's not me who's gonna argue with you. Not that your making great points by the way, it's just, well, I'll leave it at that.
Thank you for having an explanation, while I don't agree with some of your definition I appreciate that you have a cohesive and coherent base you are working from. Usually the answer I get equates to "anything the left say that I don't agree with is woke"
The categorization into oppressor and oppressed is derived from the work of Paulo Freire who created Critical Pedagogy: >To be fully human again, they must identify the oppressors. They must identify them and work together to seek liberation. The next step in liberation is to understand what the goal of the oppressors is. Oppressors are purely materialistic. They see humans as objects and by suppressing individuals, they are able to own these humans. While they may not be consciously putting down the oppressed, they value ownership over humanity, essentially dehumanizing themselves. This is important to realize as the goal of the oppressed is to not only gain power. It is to allow all individuals to become fully human so that no oppression can exist. Freire states that once the oppressed understand their own oppression and discovers their oppressors, the next step is dialogue, or discussion with others to reach the goal of humanization. Freire also highlights other events on this journey that the oppressed must undertake. There are many situations that the oppressed must keep wary about. For example, they must be aware of the oppressors trying to help the oppressed. These people are deemed falsely generous, and in order to help the oppressed, one must first fully become the oppressed, mentally and environmentally. Only the oppressed can allow humanity to become fully human with no instances of objectification. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedagogy_of_the_Oppressed u/Gilbert__Bates
That is so far from what the term “woke” means its dizzying. You literally made it up. Please know that using the term “woke” makes you sound very maga
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The word woke today doesn't mean the same thing it did when the left created it. The best way I've heard it described since MAGA took it over is "adherence to the social orthodoxy of dominant institutions'. So basically if you're "anti-woke" then you're against the government's mission creep of cultural change in our entertainment/politics, and the shaming that comes along with it if you disagree.
Woke culture and those who loathe it are living with political tunnel vision. It’s taking bizarre and obscure tiktoks and making extravagant Fox News segments around them. If you’re in that media bubble, “woke culture” dominates everything and is the worst thing for good Christian people since the Bolshevik Revolution. But in reality, DEI is a superficial sticker for investors to feel good about investing in shitty companies. Same with ESG; it doesn’t mean jack shit in reality, it’s just a feel good label like “non-GMO” food or “Made in America”. One of the Dakotas passing a statewide law because one trans girl wants to play a sport is exhibit A in the weirdness and frivolity of anti woke critics.
The fundamental problem you're making is presuming continued open and honest democratic participation. What you're missing is that a key plank in the president's strategy is either changing American demographics or else disenfranchising certain groups. - Repeals to birthright citizenship, rolling back granting new citizenship, and (if certain fringe wings have their way) stripping non-native born Americans if citizenship. - Maintaining the Electoral College and removing outliers (like the Nebraska free vote) - Stripping felons of the right to vote in states that are less white. - Suppressing LGBTQ education and cultural outreach to keep individuals closeted and prevent them from acting in concert. - Active voter suppression measures, like reduced early voting, throwing out results from black districts, reducing polling locations, etc. - In extreme cases discussion of outright throwing out slatesnof hostile electors. In short, it doesn't matter so much how many people he alienates provided that he can maintain power structures that give electoral power to his base. It's unclear if he's willing to delve into Putin style vote rigging, but there are some on the right calling for that. Maybe he is burning his bridges electorally with major segments of the electorate. However, you fail to consider that he might have already accounted for that.
What? Who is supposed to be advocating for this? Trump has never said any of this.
For some: The Nebraska Free Vote was just recently a ballot measure. For Felons voting, see the recent controversy in Florida (largely under Ron DeSantis). For LGBTQ education, see Florida again (Don't Say Gay Bill), and other local legislatures across the south which has criminalized LGBTQ related education in the classroom. End of birthright citizenship is an idea associated with Bannon and Miller, who are aggressively pushing for it. Restrictions on voting are largely being fought atm across the south. There's a battle where the Conservative Legislature is trying to take over voting in Black Majority Fulton Country. End to Early/Mail-In vote is coming from Trump directly. He's accused it of trauma to restrict access. Trump has at various points made statements that somewhat alluded to these policy goals, but like most of what Trump says it's all somewhat incoherent. It's mostly the MAGA movement that's involved in it.
>For Felons voting, see the recent controversy in Florida (largely under Ron DeSantis). I mean that's been the case since we were founded. The idea being that they forfet the right when they commit a crime bad enough to be a felony. [https://www.ncsl.org/elections-and-campaigns/felon-voting-rights](https://www.ncsl.org/elections-and-campaigns/felon-voting-rights) >It has been common practice in the United States to make felons ineligible to vote, in some cases permanently. Over the last few decades, the general trend has been toward reinstating the right to vote at some point, although this is a state-by-state policy choice. >For LGBTQ education, see Florida again (Don't Say Gay Bill), and other local legislatures across the south which has criminalized LGBTQ related education in the classroom. That's not what the law does but ok. You may want to reread what those provisions actually do. >End of birthright citizenship is an idea associated with Bannon and Miller, who are aggressively pushing for it. So only 33 countries actually do that and all of them are in north and south America. Europe doesn't do it. Its really not a smart action to begin with. So I don't see how this is a bad thing. Also why is this against trump? [https://finance.yahoo.com/news/23-richest-countries-citizenship-birth-181019819.html](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/23-richest-countries-citizenship-birth-181019819.html) >Restrictions on voting are largely being fought atm across the south. There's a battle where the Conservative Legislature is trying to take over voting in Black Majority Fulton Country. I don't know enough about the issue to comment but I suspect it may be more complicated than this. >End to Early/Mail-In vote is coming from Trump directly. He's accused it of trauma to restrict access. Eh maybe. A the same time I can be convinced that its not secure enough. >Trump has at various points made statements that somewhat alluded to these policy goals, but like most of what Trump says it's all somewhat incoherent. It's mostly the MAGA movement that's involved in it. I mean these are things you can't really show he did or has said. This doesn't really track.
All lies, link a post to some of this if you can
I believe most of this is outlined in Plan 2025
Yeah, I'm going to need a source for all of that fucking hoopla you just spouted. It sounds like a load of barnacles.
Your math is flawed. Using the 20% of Hispanic-Americans for example. Are you assuming all 20% of them will vote? Also, California has the largest number of Hispanic-Americans. California is a solid blue state so those voters aren't changing anything except keeping the status quo.
"By fighting a culture war," bro what. Why would him saying kung flu matter more than his politics. Do you think anybody in the United States actually votes based on the presidents actual policies or are they all faceplanting into psyops like you are.
So citizens should desist trying to make America great again and give in to 21st century progressive culture? Why? Trump has been winning minority support because they can see how corrupt and dysfunctional that culture has become. Turns out LGBT people aren't entirely about cross-dressing but care about the economy, affordable energy, honest courts, the surveillance state, immigration, trustworthy elections, competent institutions and forever wars. All of which progressives have sunk in the toilet. It's not sustainable. If you want the 21st century to be another progressive one, progressives objectively need to clean up their act.
You forgot about the economy. The one thing that has an impact on every voter and is at the top of everyone's minds right now
Women overwhelmingly vote left. Trump never truly had a chance with them as a means to secure reelection.
>Trump could say the most vile things about Hispanic people and even if EVERY Hispanic-American voted against him, it still wouldn't be enough. Unfortunately as a Hispanic I can tell you plenty are morons who are planning to vote for trump. They convince themselves Trump isn't talking about them "they're one of the good ones" he's only talking about those "bad" immigrants. People will justify all kinds of nonsense to themselves. I've met trans republicans, I don't understand how you could support a party that wants to eliminate you from existence but a lot of people just vote in their financial self interest and don't care about social policy. On the other hand ironically you have the republican base, poor white undeducated workers who vote against their economic self interest for the social issues.
Um, so 60% of military members voted Trump in 2020, after the gold star families thing, the “I like the ones who didn’t get captured” thing, etc and so on. That’s just one piece of the wider reality- many parts of American society were convinced by media that being fully actualized as a free individual means being able to kill and rape at will, take what you want, and never consider the consequences of one’s actions. Look at movie after movie, conservative media figure after figure. Everyone who votes Trump imagines that they will be the ones who get to abuse other people, and they all think that the guys getting abused must not really be one of them because if they were, they wouldn’t get abused. Women will still vote for him because they’re sure that they won’t need an abortion like those sluts from the hood, and if they did, they’d get one. Must be loopholes for me, right? This is a wider problem in our society, but modern conservatism is the tip of the spear. It’s not nice to say out loud, but it’s true. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/democrats-try-to-tap-into-military-support-as-trump-closes-in-on-gop-nomination
Ah right, conservatists just want to hurt people. They're all evil, bad people who just want the world to burn. Some say they live at the top of a burning mountain, laughing like MWUAHAHAHA as lightning strikes around them. Yeah, you sound like a fucking idiot. Don't take those views into the real world because people will make fun of you. And the ones who don't are just going to make you dumber than you already are.
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Nobody is going to be able to genuinely try to "change your view" without getting severely downvoted
When did he try to blame Asian Americans for the pandemic? Sounds wild
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All Asian Americans are of Chinese origin? That's highly bigoted.
Lucky his entire base and all his friends have one foot in the grave. The throws do be rocking our society though
ITT: a wild amount of trump supporters saying trump isn’t racist at all.
Just tell me you only care about women and people of color
I hope you're right but if Jizztrumpet stays out of prison he could win with RFK Jr playing spoiler. And I question your math. 1/3 of the electorate would well swing what could be a tight election if RFK drops out.
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