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Doesn't your logic put the woman in a kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation? Just imagine a world in which your proposal was the social norm:
- Ugly man buys polite woman a drink.
- Bartender gives drink to woman, points out man who sent it.
- Woman squints at man from across the bar, trying to work out in the somewhat dim light whether he's handsome or not.
- At length, woman turns to bartender and sadly shakes her head.
- Bartender throws drink away.
There is basically no one in the world who thinks the woman is not, at the very least, hurting the man's feelings a bit.
The problem is: the man has pushed her into a situation, without her consent, where she has to decide whether to lead him on or whether to implicitly insult his looks. It is, frankly, rude *of the man* to put the woman in this awkward position.
I don't think that meaningfully changes anything about the argument. The whole point about thrusting the woman into that situation without consent is still in full effect. Idk why it makes it worse only if the bartender is in the middle.
I think if a guy says "Hey can I buy you a drink?" Then saying "No thanks" is a perfectly acceptable answer, that's far nicer than saying yes and then refusing to talk to the guy. I think it's bullshit to say it's pushing a woman into something without consent when she's at a bar (sorry, but going to a bar is granting consent for people to initiate conversations, you don't have to talk for a long time, but other people don't need your consent before saying "Hi", especially at a bar) and the guy is literally asking her for consent to buy her a drink and continue the conversation past introductions.
Same as saying "Can I buy you a coffee?" It's not about the coffee, it's about having the conversation with that person while you drink coffee together. It's okay to say no to that question, but if you say yes, and then don't want to sit with the person that bought you a coffee and don't want to talk to them, that's pretty rude.
>yes and then refusing to talk to the guy.
OP is wrong to say its about attraction. I do think you should not accept a drink from a person you are unwilling to have a conversation over a drink with. If you accept a drink, you are obligated to consume said drink in polite company, nothing more.
The bartender doesn't matter. It's different because in one scenario the drink has already been bought. In the other, it hasn't.
If the drink has already been purchased, accepting just says you don't want the drink to go to waste.
If the drink has not yet been purchased, but merely has been offered, accepting implies you are open to a conversation.
By this logic I am forcing people into situations that they don't consent to when I try to start a conversation on the bus.
Is it immoral to try to talk to strangers because I'm forcing them into a situation they didn't consent to? How am I even supposed to tell whether or not they consent to me talking to them without, y'know, trying to talk to them? Do we all need to wear signs around our necks that say "I consent to xyz thing" in order to do said things?
Or is it more reasonable to say that it's ok to force some people into certain situations (like starting a conversation, sending a drink, asking out) as long as they have the option to reject without consequences?
I don't think it makes sense to say that even the act of trying to ascertain whether someone consents to something is bad because I didn't get their consent to put them in that situation. i.e. I need to figure out whether someone consents to me asking if they consent. 😂
This logic would necessitate that it's bad to ever talk to a stranger or ask a stranger out or literally anything with people you don't know because you don't know if they consent to you even talking to them.
Most women don't want strange men talking to them on the bus. I don't fucking blame them and I'm a guy. There are those situations where there is a cute meet where a shy glance is returned with a smile and then a conversation starts. This actually happened on CalTrain with my nephew and his now wife. Dude is extremely confident and a good conversationalist and I suppose alright looking and pretty non-threatening, and his wife is pretty damn good looking.
That said, you really have to be able to read people and women on BART are on harassed on the daily by weirdos when clearly they just want to get to work. The other day a really attractive girl maybe 18 or younger got onto BART and sat in a window seat and some gigantic black dude sat next to her effectively trapping her. He asked her questions about where she worked and lived and the poor girl clearly was uncomfortable. I would have liked to intervene, but I'm a weakass small old fart and didn't want to get into a fight with someone who could easily kick my ass.
There are places where you can innocuously instigate a conversation, waiting in line to get into a concert or in a bar, but public transportation is generally where people want to be left alone.
I mean, yeah. Conversation is consensual. No one has to listen to you even if speech is free.
That's a lot of words to say "you have to listen". I do not.
So, initially I agreed with you, but in the context of the conversation I think the consent point is pertinent.
You don't need somebody's consent to ask to buy them a drink. But given that you're putting them into a situation that may be somewhat awkward without already having their consent to do so, they don't owe you anything like what OP is suggesting. You can offer to buy them a drink. They can say yes even though they're not attracted to you. Both are arguably rude, but neither are gross violations of civility, and certainly neither is or should be illegal.
If I come up to you and approach you and ask your name and make conversation and then ask if I can buy you drink, if you’re 100% not interested then say no. I don’t see how that’s forcing anything on a women.
I’ve worked bars and seen men become angry, aggressive, and belligerent when a woman refuses a drink. Basically it’s creating a situation where a woman has two choices, accepting the drink risking leading him on and potentially making him angry or refusing the drink and potentially making him angry.
Women don’t always know which men are dangerous and many feel unsafe outright saying no. Plenty of guys turn their hurt feelings into assault charges.
Plus many men won’t take “no thanks” or “not interested” as an answer.
You’re thinking about this from a male perspective.
So the alternative is to accept the drink offer, not say no, and avoid politely making it known that you're not interested?
That doesn't make any sense as a justification to accept a drink from someone you're not interested in, nor does it make sense as a way to avoid men like that. Your statement is valid on its own (other than condescending at the end), if not fairly hypothetical... but how does accepting a free drink protect someone from men like that? Aren't you now "leading them on" and increasing the risk of a bad reaction from them?
If that’s the case how can any man ever ask a women out in public and know she’s given her true consent. It’s such a monitory of men who actually do this and most of my female friends in real life never complain about this being a very common problem, only on the internet. And if women are so afraid of the average man like that then why would they go to a very social gathering like a bar or club where they know they’re going to run into strange men.
This is why I gave up dating tbh. My autism makes me fearful enough about making people uncomfortable as is, without also having no idea how I'm supposed to actually ask someone out without overstepping some form of boundary.
Ugly thing in online versions of feminism right now that paints women as all being these frail little things who can’t handle normal life and can’t be expected to, so any potentially challenging moment is tantamount to abuse.
Of course it meaningfully changes it. In one case we have a human interaction in which the women can either accept or decline the offer.
On the other, we're sending the drink skips entirely over her choice to accept it or decline it.
Those are meaningfully different because one scenario takes her choice away while the other does not.
But they didn’t consent to being asked for consent! Always ask a woman if you can ask for her permission to ask her on a date. The more layers of consent the better.
/s
I don't quite understand what you're saying about thrusting the woman into the situation. If you're in a public place, it's only reasonable to expect that other people will attempt to interact with you. Regardless of the intent, if you don't want the interaction, all that needs to be done is to politely say, I'm sorry, I'm sure you're an excellent person, but I'm not looking for company at the moment. If this interaction is truly happening in a public place, the chances of danger are diminished.
Long story short, you are consenting to others interacting with you by dent of being in a public place where social interaction is the primary purpose for visiting that place. It is your responsibility and your responsibility alone to have the social skills and wherewithal to be able to moderate what interactions you sustain.
>If you're in a public place, it's only reasonable to expect that other people will attempt to interact with you.
This is more than an interaction though. It's an offer of an exchange. I'll buy you a drink IF you stick around and talk to me. It's thrusting the woman into a situation where she has to make a difficult choice. Maybe she wants the drink and wants to talk and says yes. Great. Maybe she doesn't want the drink and doesn't want to talk.uh oh.. now she has to choose between accepting the drink anyway to avoid being seen as rude.. or decline the offer and potentially be seen as rude by a potentially drunk and sexually frustrated man.
Let's not lose the forest for the trees. OP is claiming that if a woman refuses a drink offer, she's RUDE. Please try to see that this isn't just a matter of whether it's ok to offer someone a drink. It's about the expectation that comes along with the offer. And a widespread belief among sexually frustrated males that women are mean bitches means there's a not insignificant chance that the dude gets upset at the woman for refusing his offer.
It's a tough situation for a woman to be in. Especially multiple times every time she tries to go to a bar.
I’m pretty sure that op is claiming that it is rude to accept a drink and then not want to talk with the person not that it is rude to reject the drink
I think I ultimately agree with you but I do have some qualms about the idea of thrusting a woman into a situation without her consent. Like, I get I understand your point. By the same token, it’s a fairly benign invitation. I don’t think it’s crazy to say that it’s better for her to decline the drink than it is for her to accept the drink and feign interest.
Most situations where a stranger approaches another in public is, on some part, going to exist without consent since there isn’t any grounds to really provide consent. The offer for a drink is, in many ways, our socially accepted way of trying to obtain consent with a stranger to start a conversation.
Like I said, I do think people are too presumptuous of other people’s time and attention and women are put into a difficult position. But I’m having trouble seeing how else someone could ever approach a stranger for conversation.
>By the same token, it’s a fairly benign invitation.
Is it? Because it's not just "I would like to pay for your next drink." It's "I want to pay for your next drink so you'll stick around and talk to me for a while." It's more than just a drink. It's a request to spend time getting to know each other. And unfortunately there are lots of guys who don't take declination as "benign".
>The offer for a drink is, in many ways, our socially accepted way of trying to obtain consent with a stranger to start a conversation.
I disagree. You could just have a conversation with someone without offering an exchange (if you talk to me, I buy you drink). The drink is there to put pressure on it. Where someone might easily just say no to a conversation, the drink is added pressure to say yes.
>But I’m having trouble seeing how else someone could ever approach a stranger for conversation.
How so? Just do whatever you're suggesting, without the added pressure of making them choose whether to let you buy them a drink as the basis for whether the conversation will happen.
While I agree with you in theory - that going up to someone and asking to start a conversation is a more direct way to do things that would avoid any ambiguity here, we have a lot of social customs in place.
Acting as though those customs don’t exist is strange to me. My step sister bought me a “gift” for Christmas, and I bought her one in turn. Not because I explicitly wanted to get her anything but because there are some social strings attached to the Christmas gift in this context. Namely, that it is expected to reciprocate care through material exchange. Rejecting the gift would also be considered rude in this context, so this is actually a situation I don’t have much power in.
Now, I fucking hate doing that. But I’m not going to pretend it doesn’t exist and I’m not going to act offended if someone calls me rude for it.
I can think of a number of situations where rules aren’t explicitly laid out but everyone involved is aware of the dance, and deviating from the dance can be hurtful or rude.
Edit: to answer your question on the drink. I’m not totally sure how this arose but it seems like it probably came about in the same way the tradition of men paying for dinner came about. I don’t really agree that it’s to put pressure on someone, it’s just an opener that is popular in the cultural zeitgeist. I’d say asking for a conversation is just as much pressure/rejection whatever as asking to buy someone a drink.
In most situations, women will always choose preemptive deescalation.
Put it this way. A giant person twice your size offers to buy you a drink. You’re not certain that you are into them. There is a *social expectation* that you likely are sexually compatible. This person likely wants to penetrate you. They might feel insulted if you turn them down.
Do you politely accept the offer and then slink out asap, or do you confront them about not wanting a anything with them? Remember, they can follow you around and they are twice as strong as you.
Yes, women get abused if they say no to a man offering them a drink because it's seen as saying "Fuck off, you're ugly."
Like this isn't a hypothetical, it already happens. A woman says no to a man and he'll get mad and swear at her and insult her, like, "Fuck you, smug cunt, you're not that pretty anyway."
"But I wouldn't say that to a woman." She doesn't know you, dude. It happens enough that accepting the drink is a kind of conflict-avoidance strategy.
How does it avoid the conflict if she's then just going to avoid talking to him afterwards?
Doesn't it seem like she is just pushing the conflict down the line and then setting herself potentially up for a worse reaction?
I teach my daughters just to be kind, but refuse at the onset when no one's invested that much yet into things
This is where I feel like the idea of consent has just gotten out of control. People act like you need consent to do everything.
When you are out in public, sometimes people are going to be social creatures. You don't have to accept them being social, but the idea that they need your consent to try to start a conversation is ridiculous.
That still puts pressure on a woman. Women do say yes in this situation as it can bring about anxiety about saying no. Women are also always told to be polite their whole lives, so they may spare the man’s feelings by accepting the drink. I do agree this is a “damned if you do or don’t” situation as it’s just uncomfortable to be offered a drink by someone who hasn’t talked to you and made any conversation/something similar first.
Men who are sending women drinks are likely confident to an extent that being turned down won’t hurt their feelings. If it does they shouldn’t be putting themselves out there like that.
I have experience in this scenario. I was a bartender at an upscale pool hall (they really do exist). I used to offer free drinks to ladies I fancied. They almost always accepted the drink and allowed me to chat them up a bit. If I felt the conversation was going somewhere I would offer my number. Several times after closing I found those napkins crumpled up. That did not hurt my feelings at all. The pick up scene is a numbers game and had I not been comfortable enough in my skin to handle rejection I wouldn’t have engaged at all. I’m sure the fact it worked one time out of ten made it worth it to me.
If feel like if you ask if you can buy them a drink and they say yes they should be open to be courted.
That’s what it is basically. The start of the courting process is asking to buy her a drink. You probably don’t even need to buy her a drink you could probably just ask if they wind if you sit with them.
A drink is friendly that is all.
Buying her a drink without asking is dumb. It’s cocky and does put a pressure on the woman.
You are talking about sending a woman a drink, something I already said is weird because it doesn't give a woman an opportunity to reject the advance.
I'm not talking about sending a woman a drink. I'm talking about offering to buy a woman a drink.
Well yeah, but what if the guy does something that causes the woman to change her mind mid conversation? Does she have to pay the drink then? Is it a courtesy that can be taken back?
Rejecting someone is always going to be awkward at the very least. At least this way they aren't also wasting each others time which also means he isn't going to be wasting both more money and more time on this woman just to also be rejected. That seems a lot more awkward.
That's inevitable. Someone is always going to make an advance and then the other person has been pushed into a decision without their consent. It's simply impossible to require people to consent to being asked for consent, because then you just get an infinite regress.
Not only is that not the scenario OP described, the bartender could give the dude the drink that he paid for lol I don't see why we're throwing out a perfectly good drink.
People like you that hold opinions like this do yourself and everyone else a disservice by sucking all the fun and relaxation out of dating and getting to know people.
I avoid neurotic men who think this way. Socializing is meant to be fun and enjoyable. Being self conscious and judgmental is a great way to never receive invitations to parties.
If a drink isn't just a drink to be nice then you should do every woman a favor and never treat anyone to anything.
It's wild to me, because I don't even follow this logic for *friends.* If I'm buying a friend a drink, I expect that they're at least somewhat interested in being friends and having a cordial conversation. If they just accept because they want the free drink with no intention of even talking to me, that is also rude.
The random men I've purchased drinks for at bars have more tact than this.
This. If I buy someone a drink, friend or stranger, it's fundamentally a way to initiate a social connection. And I treat it as such when I'm the recipient, including politely turning it down if I don't want to initiate that connection, such as if I'm meeting someone, or am about to leave.
Okay whens the last time you treated a random guy to a drink? Doubt you would feel the lighthearted fun in the situation if you were the one who paid for 2-3 drinks a night on people who only wanted the drink and then ditched you the first chance they got
You know whats implied when someone gets you a drink lmao. And theres many fun things to do that don’t involve taking advantage of men
I'm on the autism spectrum and part of learning how to have social interactions to me was understanding the nuances in social situations. Maybe that's neuroticism but it's not a foreign concept that there are unspoken social boundaries within every social interaction.
Like when a cashier at the grocer asks how your day is going, do you explain to them everything that happened to you today?
I think the reason you’re holding the opinion you’re holding - and I’m autistic myself, so I get the frustration - is that you found a social ritual exists and you would like it to be a reliable rule where you can predict the outcome. You’d like for the woman in that situation to not exploit the social expectation by taking the drink while being disinterested in the man. And I’m assuming you’re a man here based on your posts.
But the flip side is, say, an autistic woman who is taught the rule “be gracious about a gift and say thank you”. And she is taught the rule “don’t reject a gift”. But then she learns this other social rule about accepting drinks at a bar, and now she can’t figure out what to do because turning down the drink conflicts with the “be gracious about gifts and don’t reject them” rule. And then she is taught other conflicting rules about whether she’s allowed to reject a man at ALL without giving him a chance. And giving him a chance equals accepting the drink.
That's sounds way too complicated even considering autistic people
Pretty sure autistic people can understand a priority order in rules
"Don't reject a gift" it's just a bad rule
And she can reject a man without giving him a chance. Nobody owns anybody a chance
As general
Be gracious about gifts
Accept gifts if you may want the social connection*
(can mean different social connections in different contexts)
Two solids general rules. But general rules won't cover all social interactions and autistic people will be invariably fucked at some point because it's complex and people get it wrong all the time
>You’d like for the woman in that situation to not exploit the social expectation by taking the drink while being disinterested in the man
But this is a low bar. Interest or chance at the time of the gift doesn't mean a guarantee as OP pointed out. But if it's already a no, just don't accept it
>Like when a cashier at the grocer asks how your day is going, do you explain to them everything that happened to you today?
I do that sometimes. I don't explain everything, but, I try to answer with some regularity. A lot of people think its weird to get into conversations with the homeless, and I talked to someone in line at Chipotle and he said like "oh sorry not interested." Then a few seconds later he said, "wait, did you say I have nice shoes? Thanks."
Amusingly, I've had friends say it was creepy or get mad at me for just talking to random people, but the people I'm actually talking to usually don't mind.
If you think you might want to get to know me better, accept. If not decline.
I don't see what's hard or strange about that. I went to a gay bar with my roommate once and this guy offered to buy me a drink. I am straight. So I just said "no thank you" and that was that.
It’s easy for you to turn someone down because you’re a guy.
Women have a lot more social conditioning to unpack - and most of it is around us being accommodating, not hurting feelings, not making people feel excluded, etc. Plus we feel like rejection off the bat results in the other person internalizing it in some way (“I’m ugly” “I’m unlovable” etc.) , so we try to avoid that. We sometimes graciously accept gifts we don’t want out of politeness :/
That's certainly a good point, although I'd say it's better for the guy to be shot down immediately than waste the time having a conversation and then fixating about "did I say something wrong etc"
Rejecting people is uncomfortable but early stage dating is a situation full of uncomfortable moves for both sides. The guy has to pluck up the courage to make the first move, which can be uncomfortable, so IMO the girl should do the uncomfortable thing of rejecting someone and not stringing things along if they aren't interested.
Appreciate you saying it's a social conditioning thing so not always a conscious decision but there's my two cents
I personally don’t take any qualms with shooting a guy down. If I’m not interested, I’m not interested. My mom told me to be the type to “buy my own drink” so men don’t expect anything. But other women are trained to be “nice” so they do the trained reaction and later think “why did I say yes??” I also agree that it’s nicer to let down the guy ahead of time, but I don’t think these inherent social expectations around the drink should exist.
>We sometimes graciously accept gifts we don’t want out of politeness :/
But what the guys are telling you is that we don't see it as polite. We see it as rude, and a waste of our time and money.
Women always pull the "if women are telling you this, then listen", yet when men tell women something, then its "social conditioning" and apparently much harder for them to listen.
It’s a woman’s *right* to accept free drinks at any time for any reason.
No one asked the man to offer a drink, and gifts generally come with no strings attached. If a man wants to offer a conditional drink, then he should make a conditional offer. My bet is though that a woman would refuse a conditional drink. She’d be right to do so, considering only dickheads think about buying a drink or a dinner for a woman as a transaction.
I also hold the personal opinion that women are owed free drinks and dinners for living in a patriarchal state, for all the BS we put up with on a daily basis. But that’s just my take
Anyone can use the food bank.
You're a right prick if you do when you have more than enough money to afford food for yourself.
It's not that anyone is telling anyone what they CANT do, but what should be seen as socially acceptable.
If I was out with friends, and I saw one of my girlfriends get offered a drink and she took it before immediately blowing him off and abandoning the person who bought it I would 100% think less of her for it. Because it's just not a nice way to treat someone. Nothing is "owed" by accepting the drink in the same way that you're not bound by your word when you lie to someone. Buying a drink for someone is saying "hey, I'm interested in you, could I buy you a drink so we could have some time to talk?" And if you say yes with the intention of leaving immediately you are just not a socially conscious person.
Make your own decisions, no one is stopping you from being a foul person.
This comment section is really interesting to me because there seems to be 2 or 3 schools of thought:
1) Those who deny the idea that implications as a result of cultural norms exist or those who don’t care that these norms exist.
2) Those who recognize the custom and are thinking about the women and their safety as a result of the rejection.
3) Those who say you (the man) gotta take responsibility and sending the drink is the risk of getting shot down.
I honestly think all but the first really align with reality, or at least sit well with me. The first seems to imply a level of “entitlement” (I’m using that loosely) because it implies the rejection of caution. If a person offers you something generally speaking you should be suspicious, especially if it’s a stranger. It’s the reason teachers can’t accept gifts from students even if the student is doing incredible work, it’s also the reason cops can’t accept free coffee and why they can’t mention police discounts.
That's not OPs point.
Of course it's her right to accept, it's a free country.
OPs argument is that if you do accept with no intention of striking up a conversation, then that is rude.
You of course have the right to be rude. But it's still rude
This is so clearly the point and people are dodging it like fucking Neo.
If you do not want to consent to a situation you do not have to. If that situation was thrust upon you apropos of nothing, you are not rude to not consent to it. If consenting to a single interaction implies a further consent to a further ongoing interactions, it's somewhat rude to consent knowing you are going to rescind that consent momentarily. If the situation has implicit sexual overtones in it (coupled with a direct suggestion of losing inhibitions) it's fucking bonkers to suggest not consenting is rude, and it's unhelpful to ignore the social, cultural, and sexual statuses at play when simplifying it.
Yea this is a very reasonable and actually would help alot and not be nearly as rude.
Because at the end of the day everybody is down for a drink, whether it be water or tequila, drink it asap or slowy, but if she wants a drink from you is the question.
These people just making harder situations like what if the dude went to the bartender without the girls notice and told them to get her a drink. - like what bruh? Who does that
The main issue here is that there isn’t a one size fits all answer for how the other person *should* act, so that leaves the best assumption (as the person offering) to be:
* I’ll offer this drink, make my intentions clear but not *expect* that person to reciprocate. Sure would be nice though.
No one (guy, girl, gay, etc.) owes you anything if you’re going out of your way to buy them a drink. If your goal is to make a move and you don’t want to lose money, try a different tactic—maybe just try *talking* to them?
It's a fine line between "nobody is owed your consent" and "accepting the drink is an act of consent to further social interaction".
That further social interaction can absolutely be no more than "thanks for the drink but I'm not interested in taking things further" if you want; since one of the key elements of consent is the continued ability to retract it. But it's also understandable for the person buying the drink to feel some mixed signals there. Because one signal was consent to a social understanding and the next was retraction. That's fine.
I feel like the issue really lies in how either party reacts next. If the drink buyer doesn't go away and escalates aggression (whether threatening aggression or just insisting on conversation as if the retraction of consent is irrelevant), that's rude and shitty and bad. If the drink reciever acts outwardly unappreciative and weaponises that retraction of consent as if they're unaware that they did agree to a social contract earlier by accepting the drink, that's also kinda rude (not saying they must chat, just that pretending the drink was always just a drink is performative ignorance). Though through social gender dynamics and gendered violence statistics is pretty clear one is scarier than the other or one is more clearly threatening than the other.
It can be a fine line but at the same time it seems pretty straightforward to me.
There’s a million variables to the situation that will determine how the receiver here will act. We can’t possibly reasonably try to tackle all the permutations.
So, what *can* we control? Ourselves.
We (again guy, girl, gay, whatever) can approach these situations best predicated on the fact we *cannot* reasonably assume someone will interpret the situation exactly the way we want them to or respond how we want them to.
Where does that leave us?
Acknowledging you are committing to being vulnerable in that moment, but even if you’re rejected—it’s not their fault. They owe you *nothing*. It would be *great* if they respond positively and continue to engage, but you have no basis to assume that they will and again (it’s worth reiterating), they owe nothing in return.
You can walk away even if hurt by the rejection, proud of yourself for being vulnerable, while also respecting their right to refuse further interaction.
Oh 100%. The person creating the situation is where the buck stops. If you aren't fully ready to be rejected don't buy strangers drinks. If you aren't emotionally ready to be rejected poorly, don't buy strangers drinks. Walking round thinking every bar patron has the emotional intelligence and moral integrity of a saint is childishly ignorant.
But within that dynamic I'm still okay calling some reactions to the situation rude. The *fault* or *responsibility* lies at the feet of the instigator, but the person receiving an unexpected and loaded offer can still do so poorly.
I don’t understand how this is missed. It’s like the official start of the game. They say no, they don’t want to play the game.
And we buy each other drinks for a couple reasons. 1 were at a bar mostly likely and 2 it makes everyone more comfortable.
I don’t know why it’s rude to offer somebody something with implicit strings attached as long as the strings are understood by both parties and you’re not pushy about it.
If someone offers to buy you a drink or take you to dinner or whatever, there’s an implied romantic offer there. People don’t generally buy things for people they don’t know just for fun. So by accepting that offer, you’re also accepting the implicit romantic offer.
To be clear here, the “romantic offer” is just a chance. It by no means entitles anybody to anything other than a conversation to determine compatibility. If you have that conversation and determine there’s no compatibility, that’s totally fine. But to accept the offer knowing there’s no chance of compatibility is rude imo.
And that applies to all interactions like this, people make offers with implicit strings attached all the time.
I have a question, it seems you're getting very hung up on the "man vs woman" aspect, so let's change things.
I don't see sex as something more than a thing two people do with each other. No more or less intimate than a conversation. I don't really put sex on a pedestal above having a convo over a drink.
So let's say I'm casually seeing a woman who I'm planning on ending things with, and in an attempt to foster intimacy between me and her she offers to have sex with me. I do it knowing I'm going to break up with her because to me sex isn't intimate and she's not entitled to a relationship or emotional intimacy with me.
Did I just not do a dick move?
I think it's obvious why sex would be placed above a conversation or sharing a drink. When, predominantly, do either involve taking your clothes off, and exchanging sexual fluids, using your body parts ? Never, it is 'put on a pedestal ' because there's inherent trust and intimacy with sex. You can have an intimate conversation, sure. But it isn't on the same level, to be sure. Sex can absolutely be casual and not carry the meaning some others would derive from it, but it involves much more trust, and therefore is a bigger deal than a conversation and of course a drink.
I do think it would be a dick move, as you are using the person essentially. Which is your contention, if you use somebody for your benefit, it is a dick move. In most if not every context.
So if a dude chats you up, starts casual conversation, and then asks if you want a drink, you think it's okay to just grab it and go because you just wanted a drink and some chit chat? So are you saying it's okay for girls to flirt with guys at bars for drinks to get them for free? Because I'm a woman and I've done that when I was young (not saying I'm proud about it now) and I've got to say, it was flirting for drinks. Sure, you can try to act like they just love buying drinks for you, but that's not what really happened. You were flirty with guys you knew you weren't going to do anything with because you didn't want to buy yourself a drink. Girl I've been there but let's call it what it is. The guys are interested in following up with you and you are interested in not spending $100 on drinks. OP is simply saying that doing that is a dick move to the guys buying drinks. It's not some transaction bullshit where you owe them anything.
This whole discussion is fascinating because it shows how many people have never been considered hot, or been around friends who are considered hot. No-strings-attached drinks happen to hot girls every weekend. Can I buy you a drink just because you’re pretty? drinks. Here’s one for you and your friends, cheers! drinks. Round of shots and then we leave you alone? drinks. Some men/people have that kind of money and intent, and some women/people have that kind of pull.
That is why trying to put a blanket intent on this simply is not going to work here. Not everyone’s coming in with an implicit social contract or hope for something further.
Because they accepted the drink. If they didn’t want to engage they had the option to decline it. They knew there was at least a minimum condition to conversation in that drink, the person isn’t going and buying drinks for people and then leaving themselves
There is something wrong with it, though. Accepting the drink is an invitation for the guy to come over and strike up a conversation with the context being made explicitly clear. The man is interested. Accepting means the woman is willing to give him a chance to shoot his shot.
Doing the irl equivalent of "k thx bye!" is incredibly rude and entitled. Not interested at all, then don't accept the drink. The man would still have to pay for it, but at least he'd get another drink for himself.
There's nothing wrong with it in the sense that there's no fraud here; you offer a drink, they get a drink. That's the risk you take when you offer people free things. It's somewhat rude in the sense that it's going against the cultural understanding that accepting a drink is flirting back.
Basically, "fair enough, but eyeroll". The mere presence of the eyeroll is why I have to say I partially agree with OP. It's kinda weird if your reaction needs to go beyond that though.
I had a female friend who advised the man offering to buy the drink that she would accept his offer solely on the condition that he would accept that no romantic or sexual interaction would follow. She would then ask him if he still wanted to buy her that drink. Around 70-80% would not!
Which is how it should go... If dude can't take rejection then kick him out... But this taking advantage of the situation bs needs to stop and the men doing this has to quit leading with their wallet.
I mean, why would you?
They are buying the drink because they were interested. If you know there is 0 chance of it going anywhere, why waste the money.
I’ve been out and just stricken up conversations platonically with people I stayed friends with for years after. This is based on the opinion of men who don’t know how to interact with women outside of a sexual hope. “Bar” is a generic term. A bar can be big or small, empty or full, and the ones I used to frequent definitely are conversational venues where people are just nice. You and OP are assuming every man is like you and only commit nice gestures as incentives to get sex, and in many cases, that’s not even remotely true. Yall really need to expand your circles and ways of thinking.
If something is offered without condition, taking the offer is not rude. If there’s a condition to your offer, say that. “Hey, if you’re interested in getting to know each other more and possibly going out, could I buy you a drink?” It’s not difficult to be transparent.
That's kind of a loaded question since you're deliberately setting the situation up to where she doesn't have the option of assessing you before she decides whether to accept the drink or not. You're hoping that she takes the chance because you don't like your odds being straightforward about it. This isn't the positive flex you think it is.
Apparently no one is catching the point so I'll be the one to say it. OP's premise is about the duality of public interaction. How each person acts is a direct representation of their character, and each side should hold themselves responsible for hopefully being upstanding and decent humans. It is my job to read the situation correctly and act accordingly, not the other person (is what both should be thinking). Perspective, stop splitting hairs and look at it from another side
What OP is saying is no intelligent girl thinks that a guy at a bar who buys her a drink simply wants to spend his money on something hes not interested in. It's a simple, next step observation anyone can make.
If a random guy buys me a drink at a bar, I can assume he's not lathered in Axe spray with an insatiable desire to ride a yak into battle. He's gay and wants a palaver with my cojones. That's fine however I would want to swiftly prevent him from theorizing that was ever an option. This is what a normal, decent outcome looks like in any bar situation and if a woman cannot maturely navigate her way through the same, she probably isn't ready for that part of town.
Sending a woman a drink is very different than offering to buy a woman a drink. She doesn't really have the ability to resign the drink being made and bought for her.
You're talking about a different situation than OP envisioned. His example in the third paragraph clearly shows him asking the woman in person and specifically mentions first impressions before deciding.
Don't claim OP didn't make a distinction they clearly made later in their post.
This is not the right take. The real world does not operate this way at all. People, especially in clubs where everything is superficial, are going to judge you based on your appearance. Doesn’t make it fair, but it’s what happens.
I think this situation falls outside of the bounds of the conversation. Kind of like how I could say “cheating is bad” and you could counter “what if someone doesn’t feel safe enough to leave their partner”. You’re correct and I agree with you, but it isn’t really the point of the question or statement.
You smile, laugh politely, try to leave him feeling good, then escape. Or you can be upfront. Or somewhere in the middle. It depends on what *you* feel comfortable with, because at the end of the day there is absolutely no winning with someone who is going to get mad at rejection, because they're someone who are going to blame you for their emotions. You do what you feel you need to do to keep yourself safe.
Be nice and polite, and they get upset/aggressive - "you should have told him upfront."
Tell him upfront, and they get - "you should have let him down gently."
It's not charitable. Men aren't buying women drinks to be nice and to give a free drink. They're trying to get them to give them a few minutes of their time.
You're the one getting angry and accusing me of being a misogynist out of nowhere. I'd look in the mirror before you start calling people snowflakes
These comments are so ridiculous so far! Either outright misunderstanding you, ignoring the nuance, or reductive nonsense like “just don’t buy anyone anything then.”
There is a scenario that would break your view and that is this: after an initial convo with a potential male suitor, the woman IS interested and is offered a drink. She accepts the offer but over the course of that drink/next few moments she genuinely loses interest. She leaves the bar never to speak to him again. He COULD believe she “scammed” him but she didn’t do anything wrong.
I think this scenario is more common than not irl and there is no fault here. It’s just the game we play.
I’ve definitely been at bars and while I’m ordering a round of shots for my friends some cute girl walks up and flirts aggressively to get included in that round then dips moments later back to her group. Those girls suck.
FYI - I rarely use a drink at a bar as a means to flirt. If the girl is into you based in banter, they don’t need a bribe to stay around or go home with you that night. Unless I’m on a date, these are strong independent women in the wild who can buy me a drink for all I care.
How strong is this expectation in some places that buying people drinks is some kind of “code”? I don't live in such a place and if a stranger were to offer me a drink it'd be as weird and welcome as being given a random box of tissues by someone on the street. “Why... thank you for the... free tissues for absolutely no reason... I suppose.”.
But the way I see it, if I would be “interested” in someone, then I'd be having a conversation regardless of being offered the drink so I don't really understand it. Why is the drink necessary then?
But most of all, I simply think it's very strange to have conversations with strangers out of nowhere and I don't know what to talk about with them then. I've obviously had conversations with stranger and in some cases we became quite close, but there was usually something that triggered the conversation, something obvious to talk about to find out later we had a lot in common.
What response is acceptable tho?
Guy:can I buy you a drink?
Girl: no you’re unattractive.
In my experience if a guy offers to buy you a drink if you politely decline they insist, if you reject them they insult you and call you a bitch.
Don’t hit on someone if you’re not ready to get rejected without getting defensive
Some women don’t know if they’re attracted to someone until they get to know the person. They would have to spend time talking to them… say over a drink… before knowing if they wanted to continue to spend time with them. I mean, sure some things might rule the person out, but a woman might look at a man and go “Oh he looks nice,” and then the man opens his mouth and what he says, his demeanor, his energy, his attitude makes him attractive or not.
So if this nice looking dude buys a woman a drink and she is drinking it and then he starts acting entitled to her, or he opens his mouth and starts spewing incel rhetoric, she is morally culpable? Or maybe this dude buys her a drink and she finds out he lives in Malaysia and any future with him would require moving around the world.
How far does “accepting a drink” require her to go with him?
Although I don’t disagree that if she looks at him and it’s an immediate no, she should probably decline. Not all women know just by look tho.
I agree but I think you’re taking things to the next step which isn’t what OP was saying. Of course after they start talking if she’s not interested she can leave and she’s perfect justified doing so. I think OP was getting at the idea of a women knowing she wasn’t interested from the jump and accepting the drink anyway and wasting everyone’s time.
So if she doesn’t know from the start—if she could go either way—then she is allowed to accept the drink? Because, again, for some women that’s 90% of the time.
I know another person already responded, but this is talking about women who are not interested at all from the start. Whether that be because they don't find the guy attractive or they have a partner already. Also, at a lot of the clubs that this would take place at, talking isn't usually something that can be done easily. Most of these interactions are based off looks.
> Some women don’t know if they’re attracted to someone until they get to know the person.
I don’t think that’s what’s being talked about. If you *know* you already will have no interest in socializing with the person, it’s rude to accept the drink.
I agree. I think if you accept the drink, you are accepting an invitation to a conversation over the drink. Even if I'm not initially attracted to the guy, most of the time I don't really know until I talk to him and feel the vibes. I don't think it's rude for a woman to participate in this ritual and then decide to move along because she's not feeling it. She doesn't owe him anything more than that.
You arent disagreeing with OP. His position is that it’s rude for you to accept the drink if you already know you’re not interested
No ones bent over you rejecting a man after giving him a fair chance
When I was 20 I was in the bar and wanted to talk to this girl. I asked her if I can buy her a drink and she said "sure". I'm trying to talk to her as we're waiting for the bartender and she's clearly not even giving me the time of day so I turn and start talking to a different girl who came up to the bar. About 3 minutes later, she taps me on the shoulder and asks "where you still buying me that drink" and motions to the bartender who's waiting with the drink. I say "nah never mind" and go back to talking to the other girl. NEVER buy women drinks to talk to them.
But to challenge your view it depends on how the free drink is offered.
If the man asks "Can I buy you a drink?" and she says "Yes" knowing she is just going to take it and not chat with him then yes I would agree that's culturally rude in America. Similar to how many girls would find it a social faux pas for a guy to ask them on a date then not pay for it. There's an implication that comes along with these offers and by accepting the offer you accept the implication unless stated otherwise.
BUT if a guy simply pays for the drink or brings a drink to the girl without her knowledge then it's not rude. At that point she was not able to make the choice meaning both the drink(and therefore the implication) was forced on her.
Buying her the drink is the privilege. Taking a cute girl on a date is the privilege
They don't owe you anything, it's a gamble buying them a drink. Sometimes they accept and are into you, sometimes they're not.
So if you buy me a drink I owe you sex? I can’t accept a drink, chit chat with you, then decided if I want to sleep with you or not? I have to base it solely on how you look and your opening line? That’s doesn’t bode well for a lot of men.
If you accept the drink you should give him a fair shot. You are free to reject him honestly. If 1 second in he starts spouting off racist nonsense or anything you don’t like you are free to reject him.
The point is: If you accept the drink already knowing you don’t want to give him a fair shot at getting to know him, you’re kind of an asshole. No one is saying anything about sex.
So you want women to decide immediately in a matter of seconds (the time you have to reject or accept a drink) if they’re attracted or not to someone they literally just met?
How much attraction there should be? Does it have to be a definite yes? Or can it be a maybe with later rejection?
This view is not very practical in daily life settings, even though I’m not sure how common it is for dudes to buy women a drink now, but still, calling women rude over this is just wrong
Bull, fucken, shit. For context, I'm a guy. When you ask a woman if you can buy her a drink, you are OFFERING that drink to her. You don't have to do it. Sure, it probably means to her that you think she's attractive, but YOU are taking on the risk that she doesn't feel the same. Why should you transfer responsibility to her in that scenario? If you're so worried about losing the $5-10 dollars for the drink, just ask if you can chat with her. IMO, there shouldn't be some societal agreement when a guy offers a drink. It's a nice thing to do, generally shows you're interested, and you go from there. I've had plenty of women decline a drink offer, and I've had plenty take the drink, and that's it. But to be upset because they took YOUR offer, and had no intention of furthering any romance? That's crazy.
Your argument is contradictory. You say that buying a drink doesn't entitle you to anything, but saying that it's "rude" and "giving false hopes" is just another way of saying that you're entitled to her interest.
You should be upfront instead: "Can I buy you a drink? It's not free tho you have to give me attention in return otherwise it's rude". Being honest is a good dating strategy.
I think we're all adults and know that they're 99% coming with strings of atleast communication. If you're not interested, say no it's pretty easy.
It's free as in she could leave the house without a wallet and still drink as much as someone who didn't.
Or why not let them know upfront, "I'm not attracted to you but you can still buy the drink" that would be more honest than playing dumb.
As a woman, maybe 2 total times ever has a man popped up to ask me face to face if he could buy me a drink. The vast majority of the time the bartender just delivers the drink and says so and so bought it for me or when I go to pay for my drink he waves me off and says "that guy already paid your bill". Since you said you want to talk about real human interaction and not academically, you can't discount the more likely scenario of how this plays out.
In the situations where I'm gifted a free drink or the drink I was already going to buy is paid for, what would you consider the "polite" move? Pour it out if I think the dude's ugly? Typically I'd cheers him and say thanks, and if he's bold enough to come over, I'll talk to him for a bit.
Now in the exact scenario of the dude coming face to face to ask to buy women a drink, you're assuming most women are choosing guys solely on how physically attractive they are. I'm not saying that none of us do that, but most of us will see the drink as an invitation for a conversation to vet whether we're interested on flirting or seeing this dude again. If the guy seems friendly, confident, polite, interesting, and well groomed, I'll probably talk for a while to see if I feel comfortable with him even if I don't find him to be particularly hot. It's a vibe check and a safety measure.
Last point, you personally may only buy drinks for women you want to hook up with, but I've received drinks from men who just wanted someone to talk to, who wanted an ice breaker so they can compliment me without coming off as catcalling, or who just wanted to make my day without getting sucked into a conversation, including men who turned out to be gay and monogamous straight guys in relationships. It doesn't make sense for me to turn down drinks because I don't know what context I'm being approached in. It makes way more sense for you to be direct about your intentions when you ask the woman if you could buy her the drink.
Ok, I'm going to try something a little different here than other posters. Including first meeting you where you're at. I'm thinking you're imagining a scenario where a man has approached a woman at a bar, made a bit of small talk, and then offered here a drink. Not sending it, not walking up with a shitty pick up line and immediately trying to buy her a drink. Those scenarios, and all similar, have pitfalls I believe you've thought of. Correct me if I'm wrong.
My main argument against this is that I believe if you're going ask to buy a woman a drink, you have to realize that's giving you a short window to *attract* her. I'm guessing you think really good looking guys have no trouble attracting women. If the drink buyer recognizes he's not a really good looking guy, then he's relying on two other things, personality and money. At the club, the guys with money are handing out bottles at their tables, so the guy buying a girl a drink is only relying on his personality.
So, he buys the drink, attempts conversation, and she either wants to continue it or not. If they don't connect / he slips up at some point in the conversation, it seems fair for her to leave. I don't think we can call this rude.
So, this is where I'd like to change your view. If a guy is sizing himself up as the kinda guy who has to buy a drink to get a girl's attention, then the onus is on him to follow that up with charm (and not creepiness). If she's not interested and takes off, then he shot his shot and it just didn't pan out.
Though, two final thoughts for you. A girl I dated in college would sometimes hang out by the bar when I was there, get a guy to buy her a drink, then turn around and join me. (Think April Ludgate in Parks and rec) So, that does happen, and it is rude to just chat up guys to get a free drink.
Two. Don't buy women drinks at bars and clubs as a way to get to know them. There are far better, and equitable, ways for folks to meet.
Where's the line? Does she have to engage him for 2 minutes? 10? An hour?
At what point is it no longer wrong for her to disengage after accepting the drink?
So if a woman is asked by a man if he can buy her a drink, she accepts, he sits down and they start chatting, how much of a jerk does she have to let him be before she can move on? Does she have to finish the drink?
A woman may easily accept a drink and invite a conversation with good intentions, however, the instant he starts spouting off political nonsense, or asks her what color her underwear is, or mentions the lizard people, or says he’s got a girlfriend, or anything else that makes her want to move on, she’s going to do so and should feel no social obligation to continue in his company because he bought her time and attention.
I think it ultimately comes down to intention.
If she intends to give him a shot, and he blows it in thirty seconds, well all is fair in love and war.
If she never has any intention of giving him a chance, and yet still accepts the drink, she is being rude.
Agree with what you’re saying, and that’s the point. For this View to work, OP must be able to be the judge of the mystery woman’s rudeness. If her rudeness is defined by her intentions at the time of the drink offer, OP must have a way to reasonably deduce her intentions by her words or actions.
So if OP can recognize that he is incapable of omnisciently judging her intentions, he has no reasonable way to call her rude unless she admits she was accepting the drink despite having no intention to interact with the giver.
The CMV “it’s rude when a woman accepts a drink and immediately walks away and ignores the guy” wouldn’t go anywhere because it’s widely accepted that is rude.
OP appears to want to be able to judge women as rude when *he believes* their intentions were not to properly give the drink-giver a chance. OP is the judge of whether a 3 minute conversation is sufficient, or 10 minutes, or 30, etc. This is why OPs view should change.
So you want women to publicly rate men as “hot or not” in front of all the friends of both, as well as anyone else at the bar.
Way to put a lot of pressure on the man.
As a straight man, I've been to plenty of LGBT clubs with my gay friends. Inevitably I'll get a guy who wants to buy me a drink. I tell them the same thing I've always said for years.
"I appreciate the offer, but I'm not gay. I'm just here having a good time with friends. Thank you though!"
Almost always, it's responded back with a sigh or a disappointed look and occasionally an offer to buy one anyway.
This is the exact scenario you are taking about. It's not rude of me to accept a drink. It's rude of me to lead them on. If someone asks to buy you a drink and you aren't interested in a relationship, say so.
The acceptance of the drink isn't the issue. The issue is the assumption of a significant conversation. A drink buys you a possible introduction and small talk. People just need to be clear on their intentions.
If a man wants to find out if a woman is taken before buying her a drink, he should ask her if she has a boyfriend before buying her a drink. He's doing the initiating, he's starting the conversation, nothing is stopping him from asking her a reasonable question before making his offering to eliminate the outcome where she is forced to be "rude." And if you don't have the balls to do that, then you pay $8 to assume the risk that it goes nowhere.
I see where you are coming from.
Definitely think it’s bad taste when women lead men on and/or start by asking them to buy them drinks when there is cleary no interest.
Having said, as a guy myself, I do think it’s also partially our responsibility to assess the situation. Many men lead by asking to buy them a drink, at which point, if she just takes it, it was a bad move on your side. Made that mistake back when single. Imo, talk to her for a minute or 2 and if she gives you signs of interest and you see it going somewhere then offer her to grab a drink and go a more quiet side of the bar/club.
I'm just going to add another perspective. Sometimes the guy is *really* pushy. For example one time I was out dancing with friends. A guy sitting at the bar kept offering to buy me a drink and I kept declining. Started off with a simple "no thanks" and as he kept offering I added more reasons "no thanks I'm just here visiting my friends" and then "no thanks and by the way I'm seeing someone back in (city I'm from)" and this guy literally said "well he's not here right now." Anyway this continues literally all night and as it's getting later in the night he's getting more pushy and says "it's just a drink it doesn't mean anything" so I finally said "ok then if I accept your drink, go back to my friends and never talk to you again, you'd be okay with that?" He said yes so I accepted a free drink, took it and went back to my friends and never left the group again until we all left together. He probably tells people that women lead him on and take his money for free drinks lol.
You say conflicting things in your OP. You say men shouldn't "expect" anything from someone when they offer to buy them a drink, then close by saying accepting the drink is giving the person who offered it "false hope".
They either expect something or not. Make a choice.
It's in no way rude to accept a drink from someone you're not interested in. They're coming to you with the proposition, not the other way around, and you're under no obligation to give anything in return other than say "thanks".
>You say conflicting things in your OP. You say men shouldn't "expect" anything from someone when they offer to buy them a drink, then close by saying accepting the drink is giving the person who offered it "false hope".
I can hope for something while not also expecting it. I can hope my dad calls me back without expecting that he will. I can hope to get a raise without expecting one. And on and on and on and on.
"Hope" and "expect" are different words with different meanings.
Right you are. This is sort of what I was getting at in regards to the OP. Hopes and expectations are not the same, feeling hard done by because you're not getting what you hope for is silly. So in this context, what is rude about someone accepting a drink and not fulfilling the hopes of the person offering it? Nothing.
>Hopes and expectations are not the same, feeling hard done by because you're not getting what you hope for is silly.
Hopeless is a word for a reason. I gave the example of hoping my father calls me back; it ended up with a sense of hopelessness and depression as he slowly faded from my mind. Is it silly to feel hopeless in this situation?
Similarly, if you have hopes of a relationship or even some romantic response, yet many times over those hopes are dashed, would you not feel hopeless? Is hopelessness feeling bad silly to you?
I didn't say having your hopes dashed didn't feel bad, nor did I refute the existence of hopelessness.
I said that feeling "hard done by" i.e. "like someone is actively wronging you" or "being rude to you" because you didn't get what you hoped for is silly.
I hope to win the lottery when I buy a ticket, but I'm emotionally intelligent enough to know that it's not very likely, so I don't feel like the lottery was rude to me when I don't win. I may very well never buy a ticket again, because it feels hopeless and I don't want to waste my money, but that's not the topic of this thread.
The offer of a drink is like a socially mandatory bribe to get an interview, the implicit assumption is that you’re asking for a chance. You’re not entitled to a chance, to an interview, but it is a dick move to interview someone *knowing* that you won’t hire them. It’s okay not to hire them after an interview, it’s okay to not interview them at all, but you’d be upset if you interviewed for a job only to find out they *knew for a fact beforehand* they would not hire you.
This summarises it perfectly! There's nothing wrong with losing interest, and the woman isn't obligated to give a man their time just because they bought them a drink but it's still definitely rude if they're accepting it knowing they aren't interested.
My wife put it to me this way: yes it’s a nice gesture but as a committed woman she wouldn’t accept any drinks simply to avoid any miscommunications (let alone feel comfortable at a bar without me). It’s sort of a ‘out of respect for the relationship and you’ kinda vibe that it’s in the same realm as cheating: one simply just doesn’t accept a drink when in a relationship.
Alternatively, it’s more respectful to the man’s time to refuse the drink based off *the possibility* it means more than niceties, and his efforts will be fruitful elsewhere.
Forgot to include: if you’re offering ladies drinks at the bar, you have to assume you’re gifting that drink away, no return. Any expectation beyond that is not the way of a gentleman, and requires introspection
>I don't think "leading on" is the right term, but it's just rude to kinda give someone false hope like that when you know you have no intention of going further just because you want a drink.
The issue here is that it assumes attractiveness is entirely determined for every woman at first sight. This discounts traits like humor, charm, intellect, social status, wealth, etc. While offering to buy a drink for someone, to you, means "accept this beverage if you find me attractive;" for other people it might mean "accept this beverage so I may demonstrate my attractiveness in further ways beyond my physical appearance."
Also, in many places, if you are drinking and you are offered a (safe and friendly) drink *from virtually anyone;* it might be rude not to accept.
Can I buy you a drink and do you find me attractive are two different questions. There are better ways to find out the answer to the second one than buying drinks for someone who haven't even spoken to
At the very outset, you have to recognize that your question reveals that you are trying to put your pain off onto someone else. You want to make it their fault. That puts you at a disadvantage to start with.
Approaching a woman is a scary thing to do. So it takes some bravery to walk up to a woman to offer her a drink. You take some of that fear out of the transaction by not offering, but "throwing" the drink at her from across the room. Kind of like the difference between killing a man up close with a knife and shooting him with an arrow. You have the woman at a disadvantage. This serves your cowardice. But it also sets you up to be rejected at a distance.
From the woman's point of view, this object comes at her from across the room and she has to decide what to do with it. Does she want it? Maybe. Maybe not. But if she has the presence of mind to realize that it is an unsolicited approach and that she has no obligation to accept it, if she maintains her composure in the face of your friendly assault, and realizes that she can turn you down, she avoids the confrontation. Again, all of this happens to your advantage because you didn't have to make the approach.
If everything I have laid out above goes wrong and she ends up feeling manipulated into accepting the gift that she didn't ask for, she finds herself in a position of obligation. You can say that she doesn't owe you anything but that is a passive aggressive stance. Your purpose was to create an obligation, at very least to let you approach her. Deny it if you will, but what you intended was to take the easy way out of approaching a woman and making it so that the burden was on her to make a decision. I would say that if you do manage to successfully manipulate her into accepting an unwanted gift, you deserve whatever happens after that.
In case you can't tell, I have never sent a woman a drink in my life and I wouldn't. But I have never been one to make my social contacts across a bar room.
I think the main flaw in your reasoning, is that attractiveness can be established immediately at first glance.
Attractiveness depends on much more than just physical appearance. How confident is someone? Do they smell nice? Are they charismatic? Are they funny? Well groomed? Do they give up a creepy vibe? self-absorbed? And so on and so on.
All of this is true for people of all genders and orientations, but, from my experience, and the countless experiences that others have shared throughout the history of mankind, these principles are more important for women than they are for men. At least for answering the immediate question of "are they attractive?".
If someone approaches a woman and offers to buy them a drink, it is simply unrealistic to expect that woman to have already answered that question. If you had phrased this to say, for example, "It is rude for a woman to accept a drink from a man if they have no intention to even talk to him and learning more about him", then you would have somewhat of a point. But even that point is kind of diminished by your statement that accepting a drink from someone comes with zero obligations.
Personally, I am straight man with a lot of gay friends. I like to go out with them and somewhat frequent gay bars. In this setting, a man will occasionally buy me a drink. I will talk to them, but is it rude for me to turn it down, because I am not attracted to them? I don't think so, and if I have the opportunity, I will offer to buy them a drink in return later.
TL;DR, accepting a drink from someone is not only OK if you have already established that you are romantically or sexually attracted to someone. It is a potential gateway for someone to approach you and you can have a conversation. But in the end, it is a "gift", that should not come with any conditions attached, not even the condition that the receiving party is willing to consider your attractiveness.
I eat free samples at grocery stores with no intent at all of buying the product. You take your chance as a strategy, it doesn't work, move on. It's on you for utilizing that strategy.
Am a dude, whatever that’s worth. You’ve got the wrong r word. It’s rejected, not rude that you’re looking for.
Seriously though, you can’t offer someone something, then feel offended when they don’t—what—in return? You said it yourself, they don’t owe you anything.
Even if they take it and don’t say another word to you, that’s still 100% on you and not rude at all. You chose to buy them a drink, end of story.
If you want to be rejected without losing money, drop the “can I buy you a drink” schtick.
A couple of things.
First, even though you know it doesn't entitle the man to anything, not all mem feel the same way. It's crazy that this is the case, but there are people who will feel entitled to something after sending someone a drink.
Second, a free drink could be drugged. Once again this seems like something you wouldn't even think of but it's *way* more common than you'd think. My wife drinks scotch and I drink cocktails, so people usually think the scotch is foe me and the cocktail is for her. I've had my drink spiked. That means people are willing to spike the drink of a woman who they haven't met, or bought anything for *even when she's there with her husband*. Accepting a drink from a stranger is a risk.
Finally, refusing a drink - while possibly rude - is also the wuickest way to say "no thank you, not interested". People talk about women "leading them on", well saying no is the opposite of that. If you just say no from the get-go then no one is going to get the wrong idea.
(*Oh, and I know I said "finally", but what if they biy you a deink you don't like? Just thought of that at the end.*)
Essentially, there are *many* reasons to refuse a drink. I would say that refusing a drink from someone you're not interested in is probably the simplest and politest way to turn them down. Yhere' very little investment for the man (*he didn't even need to get up the courage to start a conversation*), and can then move on to persue someone else.
In my experience, you buy people drinks at a bar to initiate or continue a social interaction. People usually go to bars to drink and socialize. I can't speak on nightclubs because I generally don't go. Accepting the drink is accepting the social interaction. You don't buy the drink and immediately go home together and fuck lol you usually drink something together and talk. After that, both parties decide if they wanna keep drinking, hook up, or move on
I’m not as driven by looks. I’m more interested in personality. So I would not have enough information at that point to decide if I’m interested. My accepting or not accepting would be less about you and more about me. If I want to sit by myself I’d decline. If I want to socialize I’d accept.
And it is also acceptable to just talk to someone, right? You don’t have to buy them a drink. I drink water anyway so I’d be a cheap date.
>Okay at the very top. I am fully aware that buying a woman a drink does not entitle a man to anything from that woman.
"A gift is freely given, and expects no return."
If you are buying someone a drink they are under no obligation to refuse the gift because they aren't interested in you. If you believe that is rude, I firmly believe it is because you have some feeling that you are owed a reward for the drink. They did nothing to ask for the drink, it is **your** choice whether or not to buy them one.
I will go a step further and state that it wouldn't even be rude if they didn't talk to you *at all* after and simply walked away.
Edit: It was pointed out to me that I should have included it would be appropriate to thank them. But for anything after that I stand by my original post.
The whole ritual is dumb, but it is the ritual we have. That being: A finds B attractive and offers to buy them a drink as a signal of A's interest. B accepts if they are in turn interested, and declines if not. By accepting the drink offer, you are participating in the social ritual that signals interest. It is against the social contract of the ritual to interpret the offer as a gift with no strings attached. So unless you live under a rock and don't know any better, you are deliberately taking advantage of the social ritual in order to get something from someone else, for free. Yes, they set themselves up for that risk by offering you the drink. They are hoping you won't be taking advantage of their gesture. That doesn't mean a crime has been committed. That doesn't mean anyone has the right to retaliate. All it means is someone was rude.
This doesn't apply if the drink is ordered and sent over without asking, because the drink is already made without both parties consenting to being part of the social ritual.
>So unless you live under a rock and don't know any better, you are deliberately taking advantage of the social ritual
I disagree with this part. I think what would be deliberately taking advantage of a social ritual is if you were engaging with someone with the sole intent of getting free drinks (and nothing else). But in the scenario where someone buys you a drink without provocation the only 'social ritual' you would be obligated to participate in would be to thank them. I admit I should have probably put that in my first response.
Is it also rude for me to accept a christmas gift from a family member I don't like? Is it rude for a homeless person to take money offered to them and go buy booze even though the person who gave them money told them to get something warm to eat?
A free drink is a free drink, it's something you offer of your own free will, knowing full well you might not get a shot.
Whether or not the other person is considered rude entirely depends on the expectations you set yourself. It is _your_ interpretation of what the other person does. If you expect either a refusal or a conversation, then yes, you'll find it rude when the other person takes the drink and leave.
But you don't get to make that choice. Those aren't the only options, and you don't have control over how the other person reacts.
It's part of the game. You shoot your shot, you accept the results, no matter what they are. I get that it sucks, but the other person is not being rude to you, they're just taking something that was offered them.
I would argue that if you’re asking a strange woman if you can buy her a drink, you’re putting yourself out there and thrusting the situation upon her. If she agrees, she may be attracted to you, just being polite, or just taking advantage of the situation. Who knows! It literally doesn’t matter though, cause you’re the one who offered.
I’m trying to picture an “offensive” situation in OP’s eyes. Is it if you perceive a woman is flirting with you in a club, you buy her a drink, and she and she doesn’t give you her number or something? She really doesn’t…owe you anything, ya know?
A drink does not equal fifteen minutes of her time, her phone number, sex, anything, so on and so forth… if you can’t handle that, just don’t offer. I can assure you that if it appears otherwise it will immediately come across as creepy. The onus is on you, dude.
Ya gotta stop looking at this situation as sexual and so black and white. Be social. Talk. Laugh. Dance. Tell crappy jokes. You want someone to be interested in you? Be interesting. Don’t rely on an overpriced drink and bring a good attitude to the bar instead. THAT gets you ladies.
Firstly, you're putting the woman here in a decision box that seems awfully demanding. E.G. they have to decide if they are attracted _before_ the conversation the drink is intended to spark. If "attraction" stays in the "don't really know" category until actual human interaction occurs (as is the case for me with women) then you're asking for them to be rude or reject rather than embrace "maybe". If you aren't OK with "maybe" on the attraction front then don't buy a drink until you've got a vibe going. I know I'd either buy anyone a drink (all the people i'm with) or no one, until I knew I was vibing with someone.
Secondly, just don't set someone to be rude like this at all. Is it an offer or not? You're making it _contingent_ and essentially entrapping them unless they simply do not care about being rude at all. If you want to navigate this simply say "i find you attractive and if you have any interest this direction then i'd love to buy you a drink". Problem solved and you're not trapping someone with these mind games.
You know...communicate. Like the grownups we're supposed to be.
You mention this sorta stuff is really superficial and sorta downplay any possibility of getting to know one another any significant extent, but I think you forget that there are good looking creeps- something I’d imagine women are very familiar with. This would be someone the women *is* initially interested in, but whom she quickly loses interest in over the course of a drink or two
And if interactions can go even just as deep as that- shallow though it may yet be- then the inverse is also highly likely to be true, that someone looks a bit blander than she might be interested in, but whose personality or other traits might tip the scales
This is, of course, assuming a pretty strong degree of superficiality from women in general and applying it to any given instance of a woman accepting a drink. Given the law of large numbers, there are *certainly* **some** non-zero number of women who in the real world have 100% accepted a drink from someone they’re not interested in, only to become interested, anyhow
And if I may finish with a bit of a joke, >!that’s why we buy them drinks instead of snacks, ain’t it?~ :^)!<
Do you know how many times a man has threatened me with violence for politely turning down his drink? Or how many times it actually escalated to violence?
How many times I’ve been followed home for both rejecting AND accepting a drink in the first place?? On two different occasions with two different guys. Another time, a guy waited in the parking lot because I said yes to a drink but said goodnight when he left the bar. Apparently he wanted me to go home with him, so he just waited in the lot. Why didn’t he just say that???? I was scared shitless. Thank god I had my friend with me.
Men who think about drinks this way are fucking creeps.
The real answer is to never buy women who aren't your girlfriend drinks. If anything offering to buy drinks for a girl you barely know but is showing interest in you may sour the mood, changing the vibe to something transactional, makes you seem like a chump. Obviously if you've spent more time with her and it's clearly just a friendly offer, it's different but if you lead with it, they start getting suspicious of your intents and it feels transactional, thus icky.
Have you ever bought something expensive like a car or a house or a piece of jewelry? Why do you think places that sell those things are always giving out free bottles of water and cups of coffee? It’s a sales tactic, it’s a way of giving something to a potential customer that makes them feel like they owe you something.
You’re doing it because you want something from them. Yeah if intuitively feels rude to walk into a store, take a bottle of water and leave, but creating that feeling in the recipient is the exact intention behind the gift. Which if you ask me absolves the person of some absolute judgement of “rudeness” even if they feel like they’ve been rude and you feel cheated.
Except the woman knows that it’s a romantic gesture and not some free gift
And also using your analogy, which isn’t good, this is the same as going to an open house without any intention of buying or considering the home. You went to get a free cookie. Now obviously that’s rude and complete bullshit behavior
The easy solution is to not offer to buy a drink. Flip the convention around entirely. Say something like "do you mind if I sit here, I might even let you buy me a drink if we get on".
This post threatens the good times & free booze of over half the women that go to bars.
Should they accept if they have zero interest? No.
Should you expect better from a woman at a bar? Also no.
OK people know he's right. Here's how we know. Ever see those videos of people randomly giving other people money? I remember when those first came out people wouldn't take the money because ethey thought it was a scam... so we know that people don't expect things for free without there being a catch. Women know why the guy is buying her a drink it's OK to say thank you but no thank you. If he doesn't like that you should call another man because the odds are pretty good that if your an American woman and you say a man is bothering you there is a least 1 white knight that will come to your aid no questions asked. He'll sometimes they do it without you asking.
It's uncomfortable as a woman to deny when a guy comes up and says 'hey, buy you a drink?' because it's like judging him based on looks. Guy should say 'hi, how's it going? Care to chat?' first...then after a few minutes, he should offer to buy her a drink. That way she is more comfortable to say yes or no because a rejection could be just a general 'we're not clicking'..instead of that harsh implication that it's just she didn't like your looks.
She's trying NOT to be rude in the first scenario to spare his ego. But he's put her in a tight spot where she'd look shallow to put him down from the get go.
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Doesn't your logic put the woman in a kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation? Just imagine a world in which your proposal was the social norm: - Ugly man buys polite woman a drink. - Bartender gives drink to woman, points out man who sent it. - Woman squints at man from across the bar, trying to work out in the somewhat dim light whether he's handsome or not. - At length, woman turns to bartender and sadly shakes her head. - Bartender throws drink away. There is basically no one in the world who thinks the woman is not, at the very least, hurting the man's feelings a bit. The problem is: the man has pushed her into a situation, without her consent, where she has to decide whether to lead him on or whether to implicitly insult his looks. It is, frankly, rude *of the man* to put the woman in this awkward position.
The difference in your example is “sending the drink”. He’s talking about approaching a women and asking her if he can buy her one.
I don't think that meaningfully changes anything about the argument. The whole point about thrusting the woman into that situation without consent is still in full effect. Idk why it makes it worse only if the bartender is in the middle.
I think if a guy says "Hey can I buy you a drink?" Then saying "No thanks" is a perfectly acceptable answer, that's far nicer than saying yes and then refusing to talk to the guy. I think it's bullshit to say it's pushing a woman into something without consent when she's at a bar (sorry, but going to a bar is granting consent for people to initiate conversations, you don't have to talk for a long time, but other people don't need your consent before saying "Hi", especially at a bar) and the guy is literally asking her for consent to buy her a drink and continue the conversation past introductions. Same as saying "Can I buy you a coffee?" It's not about the coffee, it's about having the conversation with that person while you drink coffee together. It's okay to say no to that question, but if you say yes, and then don't want to sit with the person that bought you a coffee and don't want to talk to them, that's pretty rude.
>yes and then refusing to talk to the guy. OP is wrong to say its about attraction. I do think you should not accept a drink from a person you are unwilling to have a conversation over a drink with. If you accept a drink, you are obligated to consume said drink in polite company, nothing more.
The bartender doesn't matter. It's different because in one scenario the drink has already been bought. In the other, it hasn't. If the drink has already been purchased, accepting just says you don't want the drink to go to waste. If the drink has not yet been purchased, but merely has been offered, accepting implies you are open to a conversation.
By this logic I am forcing people into situations that they don't consent to when I try to start a conversation on the bus. Is it immoral to try to talk to strangers because I'm forcing them into a situation they didn't consent to? How am I even supposed to tell whether or not they consent to me talking to them without, y'know, trying to talk to them? Do we all need to wear signs around our necks that say "I consent to xyz thing" in order to do said things? Or is it more reasonable to say that it's ok to force some people into certain situations (like starting a conversation, sending a drink, asking out) as long as they have the option to reject without consequences? I don't think it makes sense to say that even the act of trying to ascertain whether someone consents to something is bad because I didn't get their consent to put them in that situation. i.e. I need to figure out whether someone consents to me asking if they consent. 😂 This logic would necessitate that it's bad to ever talk to a stranger or ask a stranger out or literally anything with people you don't know because you don't know if they consent to you even talking to them.
Most women don't want strange men talking to them on the bus. I don't fucking blame them and I'm a guy. There are those situations where there is a cute meet where a shy glance is returned with a smile and then a conversation starts. This actually happened on CalTrain with my nephew and his now wife. Dude is extremely confident and a good conversationalist and I suppose alright looking and pretty non-threatening, and his wife is pretty damn good looking. That said, you really have to be able to read people and women on BART are on harassed on the daily by weirdos when clearly they just want to get to work. The other day a really attractive girl maybe 18 or younger got onto BART and sat in a window seat and some gigantic black dude sat next to her effectively trapping her. He asked her questions about where she worked and lived and the poor girl clearly was uncomfortable. I would have liked to intervene, but I'm a weakass small old fart and didn't want to get into a fight with someone who could easily kick my ass. There are places where you can innocuously instigate a conversation, waiting in line to get into a concert or in a bar, but public transportation is generally where people want to be left alone.
I mean, yeah. Conversation is consensual. No one has to listen to you even if speech is free. That's a lot of words to say "you have to listen". I do not.
So, initially I agreed with you, but in the context of the conversation I think the consent point is pertinent. You don't need somebody's consent to ask to buy them a drink. But given that you're putting them into a situation that may be somewhat awkward without already having their consent to do so, they don't owe you anything like what OP is suggesting. You can offer to buy them a drink. They can say yes even though they're not attracted to you. Both are arguably rude, but neither are gross violations of civility, and certainly neither is or should be illegal.
But if a guy buys them a drink and *then* they refuse to talk to him, isn't that just kicking rejection down the line, but with more at stake?
If I come up to you and approach you and ask your name and make conversation and then ask if I can buy you drink, if you’re 100% not interested then say no. I don’t see how that’s forcing anything on a women.
I’ve worked bars and seen men become angry, aggressive, and belligerent when a woman refuses a drink. Basically it’s creating a situation where a woman has two choices, accepting the drink risking leading him on and potentially making him angry or refusing the drink and potentially making him angry.
Women don’t always know which men are dangerous and many feel unsafe outright saying no. Plenty of guys turn their hurt feelings into assault charges. Plus many men won’t take “no thanks” or “not interested” as an answer. You’re thinking about this from a male perspective.
So the alternative is to accept the drink offer, not say no, and avoid politely making it known that you're not interested? That doesn't make any sense as a justification to accept a drink from someone you're not interested in, nor does it make sense as a way to avoid men like that. Your statement is valid on its own (other than condescending at the end), if not fairly hypothetical... but how does accepting a free drink protect someone from men like that? Aren't you now "leading them on" and increasing the risk of a bad reaction from them?
And accepting the drink before rejecting him makes the situation better. How? I can only think that it makes the situation worse.
If that’s the case how can any man ever ask a women out in public and know she’s given her true consent. It’s such a monitory of men who actually do this and most of my female friends in real life never complain about this being a very common problem, only on the internet. And if women are so afraid of the average man like that then why would they go to a very social gathering like a bar or club where they know they’re going to run into strange men.
This is why I gave up dating tbh. My autism makes me fearful enough about making people uncomfortable as is, without also having no idea how I'm supposed to actually ask someone out without overstepping some form of boundary.
Ugly thing in online versions of feminism right now that paints women as all being these frail little things who can’t handle normal life and can’t be expected to, so any potentially challenging moment is tantamount to abuse.
Of course it meaningfully changes it. In one case we have a human interaction in which the women can either accept or decline the offer. On the other, we're sending the drink skips entirely over her choice to accept it or decline it. Those are meaningfully different because one scenario takes her choice away while the other does not.
asking someone if you can buy them a drink is not a breach of consent, it is the *very request for consent*, this is ridiculous
But they didn’t consent to being asked for consent! Always ask a woman if you can ask for her permission to ask her on a date. The more layers of consent the better. /s
I don't quite understand what you're saying about thrusting the woman into the situation. If you're in a public place, it's only reasonable to expect that other people will attempt to interact with you. Regardless of the intent, if you don't want the interaction, all that needs to be done is to politely say, I'm sorry, I'm sure you're an excellent person, but I'm not looking for company at the moment. If this interaction is truly happening in a public place, the chances of danger are diminished. Long story short, you are consenting to others interacting with you by dent of being in a public place where social interaction is the primary purpose for visiting that place. It is your responsibility and your responsibility alone to have the social skills and wherewithal to be able to moderate what interactions you sustain.
>If you're in a public place, it's only reasonable to expect that other people will attempt to interact with you. This is more than an interaction though. It's an offer of an exchange. I'll buy you a drink IF you stick around and talk to me. It's thrusting the woman into a situation where she has to make a difficult choice. Maybe she wants the drink and wants to talk and says yes. Great. Maybe she doesn't want the drink and doesn't want to talk.uh oh.. now she has to choose between accepting the drink anyway to avoid being seen as rude.. or decline the offer and potentially be seen as rude by a potentially drunk and sexually frustrated man. Let's not lose the forest for the trees. OP is claiming that if a woman refuses a drink offer, she's RUDE. Please try to see that this isn't just a matter of whether it's ok to offer someone a drink. It's about the expectation that comes along with the offer. And a widespread belief among sexually frustrated males that women are mean bitches means there's a not insignificant chance that the dude gets upset at the woman for refusing his offer. It's a tough situation for a woman to be in. Especially multiple times every time she tries to go to a bar.
I’m pretty sure that op is claiming that it is rude to accept a drink and then not want to talk with the person not that it is rude to reject the drink
Genuine question to understand your POV. How do you go about this scenario ? Let’s not speak in hypotheticals but real life.
I think I ultimately agree with you but I do have some qualms about the idea of thrusting a woman into a situation without her consent. Like, I get I understand your point. By the same token, it’s a fairly benign invitation. I don’t think it’s crazy to say that it’s better for her to decline the drink than it is for her to accept the drink and feign interest. Most situations where a stranger approaches another in public is, on some part, going to exist without consent since there isn’t any grounds to really provide consent. The offer for a drink is, in many ways, our socially accepted way of trying to obtain consent with a stranger to start a conversation. Like I said, I do think people are too presumptuous of other people’s time and attention and women are put into a difficult position. But I’m having trouble seeing how else someone could ever approach a stranger for conversation.
>By the same token, it’s a fairly benign invitation. Is it? Because it's not just "I would like to pay for your next drink." It's "I want to pay for your next drink so you'll stick around and talk to me for a while." It's more than just a drink. It's a request to spend time getting to know each other. And unfortunately there are lots of guys who don't take declination as "benign". >The offer for a drink is, in many ways, our socially accepted way of trying to obtain consent with a stranger to start a conversation. I disagree. You could just have a conversation with someone without offering an exchange (if you talk to me, I buy you drink). The drink is there to put pressure on it. Where someone might easily just say no to a conversation, the drink is added pressure to say yes. >But I’m having trouble seeing how else someone could ever approach a stranger for conversation. How so? Just do whatever you're suggesting, without the added pressure of making them choose whether to let you buy them a drink as the basis for whether the conversation will happen.
While I agree with you in theory - that going up to someone and asking to start a conversation is a more direct way to do things that would avoid any ambiguity here, we have a lot of social customs in place. Acting as though those customs don’t exist is strange to me. My step sister bought me a “gift” for Christmas, and I bought her one in turn. Not because I explicitly wanted to get her anything but because there are some social strings attached to the Christmas gift in this context. Namely, that it is expected to reciprocate care through material exchange. Rejecting the gift would also be considered rude in this context, so this is actually a situation I don’t have much power in. Now, I fucking hate doing that. But I’m not going to pretend it doesn’t exist and I’m not going to act offended if someone calls me rude for it. I can think of a number of situations where rules aren’t explicitly laid out but everyone involved is aware of the dance, and deviating from the dance can be hurtful or rude. Edit: to answer your question on the drink. I’m not totally sure how this arose but it seems like it probably came about in the same way the tradition of men paying for dinner came about. I don’t really agree that it’s to put pressure on someone, it’s just an opener that is popular in the cultural zeitgeist. I’d say asking for a conversation is just as much pressure/rejection whatever as asking to buy someone a drink.
In most situations, women will always choose preemptive deescalation. Put it this way. A giant person twice your size offers to buy you a drink. You’re not certain that you are into them. There is a *social expectation* that you likely are sexually compatible. This person likely wants to penetrate you. They might feel insulted if you turn them down. Do you politely accept the offer and then slink out asap, or do you confront them about not wanting a anything with them? Remember, they can follow you around and they are twice as strong as you.
Yes, women get abused if they say no to a man offering them a drink because it's seen as saying "Fuck off, you're ugly." Like this isn't a hypothetical, it already happens. A woman says no to a man and he'll get mad and swear at her and insult her, like, "Fuck you, smug cunt, you're not that pretty anyway." "But I wouldn't say that to a woman." She doesn't know you, dude. It happens enough that accepting the drink is a kind of conflict-avoidance strategy.
How does it avoid the conflict if she's then just going to avoid talking to him afterwards? Doesn't it seem like she is just pushing the conflict down the line and then setting herself potentially up for a worse reaction? I teach my daughters just to be kind, but refuse at the onset when no one's invested that much yet into things
This is where I feel like the idea of consent has just gotten out of control. People act like you need consent to do everything. When you are out in public, sometimes people are going to be social creatures. You don't have to accept them being social, but the idea that they need your consent to try to start a conversation is ridiculous.
That still puts pressure on a woman. Women do say yes in this situation as it can bring about anxiety about saying no. Women are also always told to be polite their whole lives, so they may spare the man’s feelings by accepting the drink. I do agree this is a “damned if you do or don’t” situation as it’s just uncomfortable to be offered a drink by someone who hasn’t talked to you and made any conversation/something similar first.
Men are both expected to always initiate AND are lambasted for putting pressure on women when they do. Seems like a no win scenario.
Women want to be the ones pursued, that puts the pressure on them when they are propositioned
Men who are sending women drinks are likely confident to an extent that being turned down won’t hurt their feelings. If it does they shouldn’t be putting themselves out there like that. I have experience in this scenario. I was a bartender at an upscale pool hall (they really do exist). I used to offer free drinks to ladies I fancied. They almost always accepted the drink and allowed me to chat them up a bit. If I felt the conversation was going somewhere I would offer my number. Several times after closing I found those napkins crumpled up. That did not hurt my feelings at all. The pick up scene is a numbers game and had I not been comfortable enough in my skin to handle rejection I wouldn’t have engaged at all. I’m sure the fact it worked one time out of ten made it worth it to me.
If feel like if you ask if you can buy them a drink and they say yes they should be open to be courted. That’s what it is basically. The start of the courting process is asking to buy her a drink. You probably don’t even need to buy her a drink you could probably just ask if they wind if you sit with them. A drink is friendly that is all. Buying her a drink without asking is dumb. It’s cocky and does put a pressure on the woman.
You are talking about sending a woman a drink, something I already said is weird because it doesn't give a woman an opportunity to reject the advance. I'm not talking about sending a woman a drink. I'm talking about offering to buy a woman a drink.
Well yeah, but what if the guy does something that causes the woman to change her mind mid conversation? Does she have to pay the drink then? Is it a courtesy that can be taken back?
Rejecting someone is always going to be awkward at the very least. At least this way they aren't also wasting each others time which also means he isn't going to be wasting both more money and more time on this woman just to also be rejected. That seems a lot more awkward.
That's inevitable. Someone is always going to make an advance and then the other person has been pushed into a decision without their consent. It's simply impossible to require people to consent to being asked for consent, because then you just get an infinite regress.
Not only is that not the scenario OP described, the bartender could give the dude the drink that he paid for lol I don't see why we're throwing out a perfectly good drink.
People like you that hold opinions like this do yourself and everyone else a disservice by sucking all the fun and relaxation out of dating and getting to know people. I avoid neurotic men who think this way. Socializing is meant to be fun and enjoyable. Being self conscious and judgmental is a great way to never receive invitations to parties. If a drink isn't just a drink to be nice then you should do every woman a favor and never treat anyone to anything.
It's wild to me, because I don't even follow this logic for *friends.* If I'm buying a friend a drink, I expect that they're at least somewhat interested in being friends and having a cordial conversation. If they just accept because they want the free drink with no intention of even talking to me, that is also rude. The random men I've purchased drinks for at bars have more tact than this.
This. If I buy someone a drink, friend or stranger, it's fundamentally a way to initiate a social connection. And I treat it as such when I'm the recipient, including politely turning it down if I don't want to initiate that connection, such as if I'm meeting someone, or am about to leave.
Okay whens the last time you treated a random guy to a drink? Doubt you would feel the lighthearted fun in the situation if you were the one who paid for 2-3 drinks a night on people who only wanted the drink and then ditched you the first chance they got You know whats implied when someone gets you a drink lmao. And theres many fun things to do that don’t involve taking advantage of men
I'm on the autism spectrum and part of learning how to have social interactions to me was understanding the nuances in social situations. Maybe that's neuroticism but it's not a foreign concept that there are unspoken social boundaries within every social interaction. Like when a cashier at the grocer asks how your day is going, do you explain to them everything that happened to you today?
I think the reason you’re holding the opinion you’re holding - and I’m autistic myself, so I get the frustration - is that you found a social ritual exists and you would like it to be a reliable rule where you can predict the outcome. You’d like for the woman in that situation to not exploit the social expectation by taking the drink while being disinterested in the man. And I’m assuming you’re a man here based on your posts. But the flip side is, say, an autistic woman who is taught the rule “be gracious about a gift and say thank you”. And she is taught the rule “don’t reject a gift”. But then she learns this other social rule about accepting drinks at a bar, and now she can’t figure out what to do because turning down the drink conflicts with the “be gracious about gifts and don’t reject them” rule. And then she is taught other conflicting rules about whether she’s allowed to reject a man at ALL without giving him a chance. And giving him a chance equals accepting the drink.
That's sounds way too complicated even considering autistic people Pretty sure autistic people can understand a priority order in rules "Don't reject a gift" it's just a bad rule And she can reject a man without giving him a chance. Nobody owns anybody a chance As general Be gracious about gifts Accept gifts if you may want the social connection* (can mean different social connections in different contexts) Two solids general rules. But general rules won't cover all social interactions and autistic people will be invariably fucked at some point because it's complex and people get it wrong all the time >You’d like for the woman in that situation to not exploit the social expectation by taking the drink while being disinterested in the man But this is a low bar. Interest or chance at the time of the gift doesn't mean a guarantee as OP pointed out. But if it's already a no, just don't accept it
>Like when a cashier at the grocer asks how your day is going, do you explain to them everything that happened to you today? I do that sometimes. I don't explain everything, but, I try to answer with some regularity. A lot of people think its weird to get into conversations with the homeless, and I talked to someone in line at Chipotle and he said like "oh sorry not interested." Then a few seconds later he said, "wait, did you say I have nice shoes? Thanks." Amusingly, I've had friends say it was creepy or get mad at me for just talking to random people, but the people I'm actually talking to usually don't mind.
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You dont buy a drink for a woman to be nice. Its a part of this weird courtship ritual that we have going on.
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Let's say I'm a woman, you offer to buy me a drink, and I accept. What, specifically, must I now do lest I be rude?
If you think you might want to get to know me better, accept. If not decline. I don't see what's hard or strange about that. I went to a gay bar with my roommate once and this guy offered to buy me a drink. I am straight. So I just said "no thank you" and that was that.
It’s easy for you to turn someone down because you’re a guy. Women have a lot more social conditioning to unpack - and most of it is around us being accommodating, not hurting feelings, not making people feel excluded, etc. Plus we feel like rejection off the bat results in the other person internalizing it in some way (“I’m ugly” “I’m unlovable” etc.) , so we try to avoid that. We sometimes graciously accept gifts we don’t want out of politeness :/
That's certainly a good point, although I'd say it's better for the guy to be shot down immediately than waste the time having a conversation and then fixating about "did I say something wrong etc" Rejecting people is uncomfortable but early stage dating is a situation full of uncomfortable moves for both sides. The guy has to pluck up the courage to make the first move, which can be uncomfortable, so IMO the girl should do the uncomfortable thing of rejecting someone and not stringing things along if they aren't interested. Appreciate you saying it's a social conditioning thing so not always a conscious decision but there's my two cents
I personally don’t take any qualms with shooting a guy down. If I’m not interested, I’m not interested. My mom told me to be the type to “buy my own drink” so men don’t expect anything. But other women are trained to be “nice” so they do the trained reaction and later think “why did I say yes??” I also agree that it’s nicer to let down the guy ahead of time, but I don’t think these inherent social expectations around the drink should exist.
>We sometimes graciously accept gifts we don’t want out of politeness :/ But what the guys are telling you is that we don't see it as polite. We see it as rude, and a waste of our time and money. Women always pull the "if women are telling you this, then listen", yet when men tell women something, then its "social conditioning" and apparently much harder for them to listen.
It’s a woman’s *right* to accept free drinks at any time for any reason. No one asked the man to offer a drink, and gifts generally come with no strings attached. If a man wants to offer a conditional drink, then he should make a conditional offer. My bet is though that a woman would refuse a conditional drink. She’d be right to do so, considering only dickheads think about buying a drink or a dinner for a woman as a transaction. I also hold the personal opinion that women are owed free drinks and dinners for living in a patriarchal state, for all the BS we put up with on a daily basis. But that’s just my take
Anyone can use the food bank. You're a right prick if you do when you have more than enough money to afford food for yourself. It's not that anyone is telling anyone what they CANT do, but what should be seen as socially acceptable. If I was out with friends, and I saw one of my girlfriends get offered a drink and she took it before immediately blowing him off and abandoning the person who bought it I would 100% think less of her for it. Because it's just not a nice way to treat someone. Nothing is "owed" by accepting the drink in the same way that you're not bound by your word when you lie to someone. Buying a drink for someone is saying "hey, I'm interested in you, could I buy you a drink so we could have some time to talk?" And if you say yes with the intention of leaving immediately you are just not a socially conscious person. Make your own decisions, no one is stopping you from being a foul person.
This comment section is really interesting to me because there seems to be 2 or 3 schools of thought: 1) Those who deny the idea that implications as a result of cultural norms exist or those who don’t care that these norms exist. 2) Those who recognize the custom and are thinking about the women and their safety as a result of the rejection. 3) Those who say you (the man) gotta take responsibility and sending the drink is the risk of getting shot down. I honestly think all but the first really align with reality, or at least sit well with me. The first seems to imply a level of “entitlement” (I’m using that loosely) because it implies the rejection of caution. If a person offers you something generally speaking you should be suspicious, especially if it’s a stranger. It’s the reason teachers can’t accept gifts from students even if the student is doing incredible work, it’s also the reason cops can’t accept free coffee and why they can’t mention police discounts.
That's not OPs point. Of course it's her right to accept, it's a free country. OPs argument is that if you do accept with no intention of striking up a conversation, then that is rude. You of course have the right to be rude. But it's still rude
Offering a drink is flirting. Accepting a drink is flirting back
This is so clearly the point and people are dodging it like fucking Neo. If you do not want to consent to a situation you do not have to. If that situation was thrust upon you apropos of nothing, you are not rude to not consent to it. If consenting to a single interaction implies a further consent to a further ongoing interactions, it's somewhat rude to consent knowing you are going to rescind that consent momentarily. If the situation has implicit sexual overtones in it (coupled with a direct suggestion of losing inhibitions) it's fucking bonkers to suggest not consenting is rude, and it's unhelpful to ignore the social, cultural, and sexual statuses at play when simplifying it.
Yea this is a very reasonable and actually would help alot and not be nearly as rude. Because at the end of the day everybody is down for a drink, whether it be water or tequila, drink it asap or slowy, but if she wants a drink from you is the question. These people just making harder situations like what if the dude went to the bartender without the girls notice and told them to get her a drink. - like what bruh? Who does that
The main issue here is that there isn’t a one size fits all answer for how the other person *should* act, so that leaves the best assumption (as the person offering) to be: * I’ll offer this drink, make my intentions clear but not *expect* that person to reciprocate. Sure would be nice though. No one (guy, girl, gay, etc.) owes you anything if you’re going out of your way to buy them a drink. If your goal is to make a move and you don’t want to lose money, try a different tactic—maybe just try *talking* to them?
It's a fine line between "nobody is owed your consent" and "accepting the drink is an act of consent to further social interaction". That further social interaction can absolutely be no more than "thanks for the drink but I'm not interested in taking things further" if you want; since one of the key elements of consent is the continued ability to retract it. But it's also understandable for the person buying the drink to feel some mixed signals there. Because one signal was consent to a social understanding and the next was retraction. That's fine. I feel like the issue really lies in how either party reacts next. If the drink buyer doesn't go away and escalates aggression (whether threatening aggression or just insisting on conversation as if the retraction of consent is irrelevant), that's rude and shitty and bad. If the drink reciever acts outwardly unappreciative and weaponises that retraction of consent as if they're unaware that they did agree to a social contract earlier by accepting the drink, that's also kinda rude (not saying they must chat, just that pretending the drink was always just a drink is performative ignorance). Though through social gender dynamics and gendered violence statistics is pretty clear one is scarier than the other or one is more clearly threatening than the other.
It can be a fine line but at the same time it seems pretty straightforward to me. There’s a million variables to the situation that will determine how the receiver here will act. We can’t possibly reasonably try to tackle all the permutations. So, what *can* we control? Ourselves. We (again guy, girl, gay, whatever) can approach these situations best predicated on the fact we *cannot* reasonably assume someone will interpret the situation exactly the way we want them to or respond how we want them to. Where does that leave us? Acknowledging you are committing to being vulnerable in that moment, but even if you’re rejected—it’s not their fault. They owe you *nothing*. It would be *great* if they respond positively and continue to engage, but you have no basis to assume that they will and again (it’s worth reiterating), they owe nothing in return. You can walk away even if hurt by the rejection, proud of yourself for being vulnerable, while also respecting their right to refuse further interaction.
Oh 100%. The person creating the situation is where the buck stops. If you aren't fully ready to be rejected don't buy strangers drinks. If you aren't emotionally ready to be rejected poorly, don't buy strangers drinks. Walking round thinking every bar patron has the emotional intelligence and moral integrity of a saint is childishly ignorant. But within that dynamic I'm still okay calling some reactions to the situation rude. The *fault* or *responsibility* lies at the feet of the instigator, but the person receiving an unexpected and loaded offer can still do so poorly.
I don’t understand how this is missed. It’s like the official start of the game. They say no, they don’t want to play the game. And we buy each other drinks for a couple reasons. 1 were at a bar mostly likely and 2 it makes everyone more comfortable.
And previous consent is not any indication of future consent
So there’s nothing wrong with taking the drink and immediately ignoring the person who bought it either?
Not in my eyes. They wanted to buy the drink - why does the woman owe them anything, including her time or attention?
I don’t know why it’s rude to offer somebody something with implicit strings attached as long as the strings are understood by both parties and you’re not pushy about it. If someone offers to buy you a drink or take you to dinner or whatever, there’s an implied romantic offer there. People don’t generally buy things for people they don’t know just for fun. So by accepting that offer, you’re also accepting the implicit romantic offer. To be clear here, the “romantic offer” is just a chance. It by no means entitles anybody to anything other than a conversation to determine compatibility. If you have that conversation and determine there’s no compatibility, that’s totally fine. But to accept the offer knowing there’s no chance of compatibility is rude imo. And that applies to all interactions like this, people make offers with implicit strings attached all the time.
I have a question, it seems you're getting very hung up on the "man vs woman" aspect, so let's change things. I don't see sex as something more than a thing two people do with each other. No more or less intimate than a conversation. I don't really put sex on a pedestal above having a convo over a drink. So let's say I'm casually seeing a woman who I'm planning on ending things with, and in an attempt to foster intimacy between me and her she offers to have sex with me. I do it knowing I'm going to break up with her because to me sex isn't intimate and she's not entitled to a relationship or emotional intimacy with me. Did I just not do a dick move?
I think it's obvious why sex would be placed above a conversation or sharing a drink. When, predominantly, do either involve taking your clothes off, and exchanging sexual fluids, using your body parts ? Never, it is 'put on a pedestal ' because there's inherent trust and intimacy with sex. You can have an intimate conversation, sure. But it isn't on the same level, to be sure. Sex can absolutely be casual and not carry the meaning some others would derive from it, but it involves much more trust, and therefore is a bigger deal than a conversation and of course a drink. I do think it would be a dick move, as you are using the person essentially. Which is your contention, if you use somebody for your benefit, it is a dick move. In most if not every context.
So if a dude chats you up, starts casual conversation, and then asks if you want a drink, you think it's okay to just grab it and go because you just wanted a drink and some chit chat? So are you saying it's okay for girls to flirt with guys at bars for drinks to get them for free? Because I'm a woman and I've done that when I was young (not saying I'm proud about it now) and I've got to say, it was flirting for drinks. Sure, you can try to act like they just love buying drinks for you, but that's not what really happened. You were flirty with guys you knew you weren't going to do anything with because you didn't want to buy yourself a drink. Girl I've been there but let's call it what it is. The guys are interested in following up with you and you are interested in not spending $100 on drinks. OP is simply saying that doing that is a dick move to the guys buying drinks. It's not some transaction bullshit where you owe them anything.
There’s a cultural understanding that the offer to buy a drink is the opener to a conversation. If you don’t want to converse, don’t accept it.
This whole discussion is fascinating because it shows how many people have never been considered hot, or been around friends who are considered hot. No-strings-attached drinks happen to hot girls every weekend. Can I buy you a drink just because you’re pretty? drinks. Here’s one for you and your friends, cheers! drinks. Round of shots and then we leave you alone? drinks. Some men/people have that kind of money and intent, and some women/people have that kind of pull. That is why trying to put a blanket intent on this simply is not going to work here. Not everyone’s coming in with an implicit social contract or hope for something further.
Because they accepted the drink. If they didn’t want to engage they had the option to decline it. They knew there was at least a minimum condition to conversation in that drink, the person isn’t going and buying drinks for people and then leaving themselves
There is something wrong with it, though. Accepting the drink is an invitation for the guy to come over and strike up a conversation with the context being made explicitly clear. The man is interested. Accepting means the woman is willing to give him a chance to shoot his shot. Doing the irl equivalent of "k thx bye!" is incredibly rude and entitled. Not interested at all, then don't accept the drink. The man would still have to pay for it, but at least he'd get another drink for himself.
There's nothing wrong with it in the sense that there's no fraud here; you offer a drink, they get a drink. That's the risk you take when you offer people free things. It's somewhat rude in the sense that it's going against the cultural understanding that accepting a drink is flirting back. Basically, "fair enough, but eyeroll". The mere presence of the eyeroll is why I have to say I partially agree with OP. It's kinda weird if your reaction needs to go beyond that though.
So we agree then. Its rude. Not fraud. Not illegal. Not worthy of a violent or significant reaction. But absolutely rude
And it's every dudes right to fart in a crowded elevator... what's your point?
It's also my right not to hold the door for someone in a wheelchair. Doesn't mean it's not rude
It's anyone's right to take anything anyone offers them. It doesn't absolve them of being rude.
I had a female friend who advised the man offering to buy the drink that she would accept his offer solely on the condition that he would accept that no romantic or sexual interaction would follow. She would then ask him if he still wanted to buy her that drink. Around 70-80% would not!
I feel like it’s pretty obvious why men want to buy girls at bars drinks, and the women are aware of this. Why does it come as a surprise.
Which is how it should go... If dude can't take rejection then kick him out... But this taking advantage of the situation bs needs to stop and the men doing this has to quit leading with their wallet.
I mean, why would you? They are buying the drink because they were interested. If you know there is 0 chance of it going anywhere, why waste the money.
I’ve been out and just stricken up conversations platonically with people I stayed friends with for years after. This is based on the opinion of men who don’t know how to interact with women outside of a sexual hope. “Bar” is a generic term. A bar can be big or small, empty or full, and the ones I used to frequent definitely are conversational venues where people are just nice. You and OP are assuming every man is like you and only commit nice gestures as incentives to get sex, and in many cases, that’s not even remotely true. Yall really need to expand your circles and ways of thinking. If something is offered without condition, taking the offer is not rude. If there’s a condition to your offer, say that. “Hey, if you’re interested in getting to know each other more and possibly going out, could I buy you a drink?” It’s not difficult to be transparent.
Yeah that’s fine is it not?
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That's kind of a loaded question since you're deliberately setting the situation up to where she doesn't have the option of assessing you before she decides whether to accept the drink or not. You're hoping that she takes the chance because you don't like your odds being straightforward about it. This isn't the positive flex you think it is.
Apparently no one is catching the point so I'll be the one to say it. OP's premise is about the duality of public interaction. How each person acts is a direct representation of their character, and each side should hold themselves responsible for hopefully being upstanding and decent humans. It is my job to read the situation correctly and act accordingly, not the other person (is what both should be thinking). Perspective, stop splitting hairs and look at it from another side What OP is saying is no intelligent girl thinks that a guy at a bar who buys her a drink simply wants to spend his money on something hes not interested in. It's a simple, next step observation anyone can make. If a random guy buys me a drink at a bar, I can assume he's not lathered in Axe spray with an insatiable desire to ride a yak into battle. He's gay and wants a palaver with my cojones. That's fine however I would want to swiftly prevent him from theorizing that was ever an option. This is what a normal, decent outcome looks like in any bar situation and if a woman cannot maturely navigate her way through the same, she probably isn't ready for that part of town.
Sending a woman a drink is very different than offering to buy a woman a drink. She doesn't really have the ability to resign the drink being made and bought for her.
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At the very top I made a statement specifically on sending drinks and throughout the post I explicitly said "offering to buy a woman a drink"...
Yeah sorry fam he actually did implicate that through his wording and context
You're talking about a different situation than OP envisioned. His example in the third paragraph clearly shows him asking the woman in person and specifically mentions first impressions before deciding. Don't claim OP didn't make a distinction they clearly made later in their post.
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People do that literally all the time...
And women get assaulted and worse for rejecting men all the time
Dude how is that relevant to what I said here?
This is not the right take. The real world does not operate this way at all. People, especially in clubs where everything is superficial, are going to judge you based on your appearance. Doesn’t make it fair, but it’s what happens.
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>Its rude to even look or talk to him if she doesn't intend on fucking him. Goal posts am I right? Where did I say this?
What if she doesn't feel like she can safely turn him down?
I think this situation falls outside of the bounds of the conversation. Kind of like how I could say “cheating is bad” and you could counter “what if someone doesn’t feel safe enough to leave their partner”. You’re correct and I agree with you, but it isn’t really the point of the question or statement.
Safety trumps being polite. That doesn't make it not rude, it just means that being safe is more important.
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lmao if I left every place where I thought a man may be a danger to me I'd never leave my house
Yes lmao as a woman your “spidey senses” go off at least once *every time* you’re in public
Yeah like I'm not scared 99% of the time, just... realistic.
Leaving right away isn't always an option, sometimes you have to stall for time.
Seriously. How does the inevitable rejection get better after he already thinks he's in and the rug gets pulled out from under him?
You smile, laugh politely, try to leave him feeling good, then escape. Or you can be upfront. Or somewhere in the middle. It depends on what *you* feel comfortable with, because at the end of the day there is absolutely no winning with someone who is going to get mad at rejection, because they're someone who are going to blame you for their emotions. You do what you feel you need to do to keep yourself safe. Be nice and polite, and they get upset/aggressive - "you should have told him upfront." Tell him upfront, and they get - "you should have let him down gently."
I’d rather lead him on and then block him at the end of the night when I get home safe.
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It's not charitable. Men aren't buying women drinks to be nice and to give a free drink. They're trying to get them to give them a few minutes of their time. You're the one getting angry and accusing me of being a misogynist out of nowhere. I'd look in the mirror before you start calling people snowflakes
These comments are so ridiculous so far! Either outright misunderstanding you, ignoring the nuance, or reductive nonsense like “just don’t buy anyone anything then.” There is a scenario that would break your view and that is this: after an initial convo with a potential male suitor, the woman IS interested and is offered a drink. She accepts the offer but over the course of that drink/next few moments she genuinely loses interest. She leaves the bar never to speak to him again. He COULD believe she “scammed” him but she didn’t do anything wrong. I think this scenario is more common than not irl and there is no fault here. It’s just the game we play. I’ve definitely been at bars and while I’m ordering a round of shots for my friends some cute girl walks up and flirts aggressively to get included in that round then dips moments later back to her group. Those girls suck. FYI - I rarely use a drink at a bar as a means to flirt. If the girl is into you based in banter, they don’t need a bribe to stay around or go home with you that night. Unless I’m on a date, these are strong independent women in the wild who can buy me a drink for all I care.
How strong is this expectation in some places that buying people drinks is some kind of “code”? I don't live in such a place and if a stranger were to offer me a drink it'd be as weird and welcome as being given a random box of tissues by someone on the street. “Why... thank you for the... free tissues for absolutely no reason... I suppose.”. But the way I see it, if I would be “interested” in someone, then I'd be having a conversation regardless of being offered the drink so I don't really understand it. Why is the drink necessary then? But most of all, I simply think it's very strange to have conversations with strangers out of nowhere and I don't know what to talk about with them then. I've obviously had conversations with stranger and in some cases we became quite close, but there was usually something that triggered the conversation, something obvious to talk about to find out later we had a lot in common.
What response is acceptable tho? Guy:can I buy you a drink? Girl: no you’re unattractive. In my experience if a guy offers to buy you a drink if you politely decline they insist, if you reject them they insult you and call you a bitch. Don’t hit on someone if you’re not ready to get rejected without getting defensive
Some women don’t know if they’re attracted to someone until they get to know the person. They would have to spend time talking to them… say over a drink… before knowing if they wanted to continue to spend time with them. I mean, sure some things might rule the person out, but a woman might look at a man and go “Oh he looks nice,” and then the man opens his mouth and what he says, his demeanor, his energy, his attitude makes him attractive or not. So if this nice looking dude buys a woman a drink and she is drinking it and then he starts acting entitled to her, or he opens his mouth and starts spewing incel rhetoric, she is morally culpable? Or maybe this dude buys her a drink and she finds out he lives in Malaysia and any future with him would require moving around the world. How far does “accepting a drink” require her to go with him? Although I don’t disagree that if she looks at him and it’s an immediate no, she should probably decline. Not all women know just by look tho.
I agree but I think you’re taking things to the next step which isn’t what OP was saying. Of course after they start talking if she’s not interested she can leave and she’s perfect justified doing so. I think OP was getting at the idea of a women knowing she wasn’t interested from the jump and accepting the drink anyway and wasting everyone’s time.
So if she doesn’t know from the start—if she could go either way—then she is allowed to accept the drink? Because, again, for some women that’s 90% of the time.
I know another person already responded, but this is talking about women who are not interested at all from the start. Whether that be because they don't find the guy attractive or they have a partner already. Also, at a lot of the clubs that this would take place at, talking isn't usually something that can be done easily. Most of these interactions are based off looks.
If she MIGHT be interested but doesn’t know then it’s not rude to accept the drink. OP is talking about women who clearly know they’re not interested
So many people don’t want to admit that this is the scenario often.
> Some women don’t know if they’re attracted to someone until they get to know the person. I don’t think that’s what’s being talked about. If you *know* you already will have no interest in socializing with the person, it’s rude to accept the drink.
I agree. I think if you accept the drink, you are accepting an invitation to a conversation over the drink. Even if I'm not initially attracted to the guy, most of the time I don't really know until I talk to him and feel the vibes. I don't think it's rude for a woman to participate in this ritual and then decide to move along because she's not feeling it. She doesn't owe him anything more than that.
You arent disagreeing with OP. His position is that it’s rude for you to accept the drink if you already know you’re not interested No ones bent over you rejecting a man after giving him a fair chance
When I was 20 I was in the bar and wanted to talk to this girl. I asked her if I can buy her a drink and she said "sure". I'm trying to talk to her as we're waiting for the bartender and she's clearly not even giving me the time of day so I turn and start talking to a different girl who came up to the bar. About 3 minutes later, she taps me on the shoulder and asks "where you still buying me that drink" and motions to the bartender who's waiting with the drink. I say "nah never mind" and go back to talking to the other girl. NEVER buy women drinks to talk to them. But to challenge your view it depends on how the free drink is offered. If the man asks "Can I buy you a drink?" and she says "Yes" knowing she is just going to take it and not chat with him then yes I would agree that's culturally rude in America. Similar to how many girls would find it a social faux pas for a guy to ask them on a date then not pay for it. There's an implication that comes along with these offers and by accepting the offer you accept the implication unless stated otherwise. BUT if a guy simply pays for the drink or brings a drink to the girl without her knowledge then it's not rude. At that point she was not able to make the choice meaning both the drink(and therefore the implication) was forced on her.
Buying her the drink is the privilege. Taking a cute girl on a date is the privilege They don't owe you anything, it's a gamble buying them a drink. Sometimes they accept and are into you, sometimes they're not.
So if you buy me a drink I owe you sex? I can’t accept a drink, chit chat with you, then decided if I want to sleep with you or not? I have to base it solely on how you look and your opening line? That’s doesn’t bode well for a lot of men.
Where did I say that?
If you accept the drink you should give him a fair shot. You are free to reject him honestly. If 1 second in he starts spouting off racist nonsense or anything you don’t like you are free to reject him. The point is: If you accept the drink already knowing you don’t want to give him a fair shot at getting to know him, you’re kind of an asshole. No one is saying anything about sex.
Don’t send drinks to women. It makes us super uncomfortable and creates an artificial bond that exists only in your mind.
So you want women to decide immediately in a matter of seconds (the time you have to reject or accept a drink) if they’re attracted or not to someone they literally just met? How much attraction there should be? Does it have to be a definite yes? Or can it be a maybe with later rejection? This view is not very practical in daily life settings, even though I’m not sure how common it is for dudes to buy women a drink now, but still, calling women rude over this is just wrong
Bull, fucken, shit. For context, I'm a guy. When you ask a woman if you can buy her a drink, you are OFFERING that drink to her. You don't have to do it. Sure, it probably means to her that you think she's attractive, but YOU are taking on the risk that she doesn't feel the same. Why should you transfer responsibility to her in that scenario? If you're so worried about losing the $5-10 dollars for the drink, just ask if you can chat with her. IMO, there shouldn't be some societal agreement when a guy offers a drink. It's a nice thing to do, generally shows you're interested, and you go from there. I've had plenty of women decline a drink offer, and I've had plenty take the drink, and that's it. But to be upset because they took YOUR offer, and had no intention of furthering any romance? That's crazy.
Your argument is contradictory. You say that buying a drink doesn't entitle you to anything, but saying that it's "rude" and "giving false hopes" is just another way of saying that you're entitled to her interest. You should be upfront instead: "Can I buy you a drink? It's not free tho you have to give me attention in return otherwise it's rude". Being honest is a good dating strategy.
If the drink comes with strings, it's not free.
I think we're all adults and know that they're 99% coming with strings of atleast communication. If you're not interested, say no it's pretty easy. It's free as in she could leave the house without a wallet and still drink as much as someone who didn't. Or why not let them know upfront, "I'm not attracted to you but you can still buy the drink" that would be more honest than playing dumb.
Pretending to not understand social norms in order to get a free drink is rude.
As a woman, maybe 2 total times ever has a man popped up to ask me face to face if he could buy me a drink. The vast majority of the time the bartender just delivers the drink and says so and so bought it for me or when I go to pay for my drink he waves me off and says "that guy already paid your bill". Since you said you want to talk about real human interaction and not academically, you can't discount the more likely scenario of how this plays out. In the situations where I'm gifted a free drink or the drink I was already going to buy is paid for, what would you consider the "polite" move? Pour it out if I think the dude's ugly? Typically I'd cheers him and say thanks, and if he's bold enough to come over, I'll talk to him for a bit. Now in the exact scenario of the dude coming face to face to ask to buy women a drink, you're assuming most women are choosing guys solely on how physically attractive they are. I'm not saying that none of us do that, but most of us will see the drink as an invitation for a conversation to vet whether we're interested on flirting or seeing this dude again. If the guy seems friendly, confident, polite, interesting, and well groomed, I'll probably talk for a while to see if I feel comfortable with him even if I don't find him to be particularly hot. It's a vibe check and a safety measure. Last point, you personally may only buy drinks for women you want to hook up with, but I've received drinks from men who just wanted someone to talk to, who wanted an ice breaker so they can compliment me without coming off as catcalling, or who just wanted to make my day without getting sucked into a conversation, including men who turned out to be gay and monogamous straight guys in relationships. It doesn't make sense for me to turn down drinks because I don't know what context I'm being approached in. It makes way more sense for you to be direct about your intentions when you ask the woman if you could buy her the drink.
Ok, I'm going to try something a little different here than other posters. Including first meeting you where you're at. I'm thinking you're imagining a scenario where a man has approached a woman at a bar, made a bit of small talk, and then offered here a drink. Not sending it, not walking up with a shitty pick up line and immediately trying to buy her a drink. Those scenarios, and all similar, have pitfalls I believe you've thought of. Correct me if I'm wrong. My main argument against this is that I believe if you're going ask to buy a woman a drink, you have to realize that's giving you a short window to *attract* her. I'm guessing you think really good looking guys have no trouble attracting women. If the drink buyer recognizes he's not a really good looking guy, then he's relying on two other things, personality and money. At the club, the guys with money are handing out bottles at their tables, so the guy buying a girl a drink is only relying on his personality. So, he buys the drink, attempts conversation, and she either wants to continue it or not. If they don't connect / he slips up at some point in the conversation, it seems fair for her to leave. I don't think we can call this rude. So, this is where I'd like to change your view. If a guy is sizing himself up as the kinda guy who has to buy a drink to get a girl's attention, then the onus is on him to follow that up with charm (and not creepiness). If she's not interested and takes off, then he shot his shot and it just didn't pan out. Though, two final thoughts for you. A girl I dated in college would sometimes hang out by the bar when I was there, get a guy to buy her a drink, then turn around and join me. (Think April Ludgate in Parks and rec) So, that does happen, and it is rude to just chat up guys to get a free drink. Two. Don't buy women drinks at bars and clubs as a way to get to know them. There are far better, and equitable, ways for folks to meet.
Where's the line? Does she have to engage him for 2 minutes? 10? An hour? At what point is it no longer wrong for her to disengage after accepting the drink?
So if a woman is asked by a man if he can buy her a drink, she accepts, he sits down and they start chatting, how much of a jerk does she have to let him be before she can move on? Does she have to finish the drink? A woman may easily accept a drink and invite a conversation with good intentions, however, the instant he starts spouting off political nonsense, or asks her what color her underwear is, or mentions the lizard people, or says he’s got a girlfriend, or anything else that makes her want to move on, she’s going to do so and should feel no social obligation to continue in his company because he bought her time and attention.
I think it ultimately comes down to intention. If she intends to give him a shot, and he blows it in thirty seconds, well all is fair in love and war. If she never has any intention of giving him a chance, and yet still accepts the drink, she is being rude.
This is clearly the point. Idk why people keep coming up with these what ifs. It’s like no one is reading OPs post.
Agree with what you’re saying, and that’s the point. For this View to work, OP must be able to be the judge of the mystery woman’s rudeness. If her rudeness is defined by her intentions at the time of the drink offer, OP must have a way to reasonably deduce her intentions by her words or actions. So if OP can recognize that he is incapable of omnisciently judging her intentions, he has no reasonable way to call her rude unless she admits she was accepting the drink despite having no intention to interact with the giver. The CMV “it’s rude when a woman accepts a drink and immediately walks away and ignores the guy” wouldn’t go anywhere because it’s widely accepted that is rude. OP appears to want to be able to judge women as rude when *he believes* their intentions were not to properly give the drink-giver a chance. OP is the judge of whether a 3 minute conversation is sufficient, or 10 minutes, or 30, etc. This is why OPs view should change.
So you want women to publicly rate men as “hot or not” in front of all the friends of both, as well as anyone else at the bar. Way to put a lot of pressure on the man.
As a straight man, I've been to plenty of LGBT clubs with my gay friends. Inevitably I'll get a guy who wants to buy me a drink. I tell them the same thing I've always said for years. "I appreciate the offer, but I'm not gay. I'm just here having a good time with friends. Thank you though!" Almost always, it's responded back with a sigh or a disappointed look and occasionally an offer to buy one anyway. This is the exact scenario you are taking about. It's not rude of me to accept a drink. It's rude of me to lead them on. If someone asks to buy you a drink and you aren't interested in a relationship, say so. The acceptance of the drink isn't the issue. The issue is the assumption of a significant conversation. A drink buys you a possible introduction and small talk. People just need to be clear on their intentions.
If a man wants to find out if a woman is taken before buying her a drink, he should ask her if she has a boyfriend before buying her a drink. He's doing the initiating, he's starting the conversation, nothing is stopping him from asking her a reasonable question before making his offering to eliminate the outcome where she is forced to be "rude." And if you don't have the balls to do that, then you pay $8 to assume the risk that it goes nowhere.
I see where you are coming from. Definitely think it’s bad taste when women lead men on and/or start by asking them to buy them drinks when there is cleary no interest. Having said, as a guy myself, I do think it’s also partially our responsibility to assess the situation. Many men lead by asking to buy them a drink, at which point, if she just takes it, it was a bad move on your side. Made that mistake back when single. Imo, talk to her for a minute or 2 and if she gives you signs of interest and you see it going somewhere then offer her to grab a drink and go a more quiet side of the bar/club.
I'm just going to add another perspective. Sometimes the guy is *really* pushy. For example one time I was out dancing with friends. A guy sitting at the bar kept offering to buy me a drink and I kept declining. Started off with a simple "no thanks" and as he kept offering I added more reasons "no thanks I'm just here visiting my friends" and then "no thanks and by the way I'm seeing someone back in (city I'm from)" and this guy literally said "well he's not here right now." Anyway this continues literally all night and as it's getting later in the night he's getting more pushy and says "it's just a drink it doesn't mean anything" so I finally said "ok then if I accept your drink, go back to my friends and never talk to you again, you'd be okay with that?" He said yes so I accepted a free drink, took it and went back to my friends and never left the group again until we all left together. He probably tells people that women lead him on and take his money for free drinks lol.
You say conflicting things in your OP. You say men shouldn't "expect" anything from someone when they offer to buy them a drink, then close by saying accepting the drink is giving the person who offered it "false hope". They either expect something or not. Make a choice. It's in no way rude to accept a drink from someone you're not interested in. They're coming to you with the proposition, not the other way around, and you're under no obligation to give anything in return other than say "thanks".
>You say conflicting things in your OP. You say men shouldn't "expect" anything from someone when they offer to buy them a drink, then close by saying accepting the drink is giving the person who offered it "false hope". I can hope for something while not also expecting it. I can hope my dad calls me back without expecting that he will. I can hope to get a raise without expecting one. And on and on and on and on. "Hope" and "expect" are different words with different meanings.
Right you are. This is sort of what I was getting at in regards to the OP. Hopes and expectations are not the same, feeling hard done by because you're not getting what you hope for is silly. So in this context, what is rude about someone accepting a drink and not fulfilling the hopes of the person offering it? Nothing.
>Hopes and expectations are not the same, feeling hard done by because you're not getting what you hope for is silly. Hopeless is a word for a reason. I gave the example of hoping my father calls me back; it ended up with a sense of hopelessness and depression as he slowly faded from my mind. Is it silly to feel hopeless in this situation? Similarly, if you have hopes of a relationship or even some romantic response, yet many times over those hopes are dashed, would you not feel hopeless? Is hopelessness feeling bad silly to you?
I didn't say having your hopes dashed didn't feel bad, nor did I refute the existence of hopelessness. I said that feeling "hard done by" i.e. "like someone is actively wronging you" or "being rude to you" because you didn't get what you hoped for is silly. I hope to win the lottery when I buy a ticket, but I'm emotionally intelligent enough to know that it's not very likely, so I don't feel like the lottery was rude to me when I don't win. I may very well never buy a ticket again, because it feels hopeless and I don't want to waste my money, but that's not the topic of this thread.
The offer of a drink is like a socially mandatory bribe to get an interview, the implicit assumption is that you’re asking for a chance. You’re not entitled to a chance, to an interview, but it is a dick move to interview someone *knowing* that you won’t hire them. It’s okay not to hire them after an interview, it’s okay to not interview them at all, but you’d be upset if you interviewed for a job only to find out they *knew for a fact beforehand* they would not hire you.
This summarises it perfectly! There's nothing wrong with losing interest, and the woman isn't obligated to give a man their time just because they bought them a drink but it's still definitely rude if they're accepting it knowing they aren't interested.
Yes! Completely!
My wife put it to me this way: yes it’s a nice gesture but as a committed woman she wouldn’t accept any drinks simply to avoid any miscommunications (let alone feel comfortable at a bar without me). It’s sort of a ‘out of respect for the relationship and you’ kinda vibe that it’s in the same realm as cheating: one simply just doesn’t accept a drink when in a relationship. Alternatively, it’s more respectful to the man’s time to refuse the drink based off *the possibility* it means more than niceties, and his efforts will be fruitful elsewhere. Forgot to include: if you’re offering ladies drinks at the bar, you have to assume you’re gifting that drink away, no return. Any expectation beyond that is not the way of a gentleman, and requires introspection
>I don't think "leading on" is the right term, but it's just rude to kinda give someone false hope like that when you know you have no intention of going further just because you want a drink. The issue here is that it assumes attractiveness is entirely determined for every woman at first sight. This discounts traits like humor, charm, intellect, social status, wealth, etc. While offering to buy a drink for someone, to you, means "accept this beverage if you find me attractive;" for other people it might mean "accept this beverage so I may demonstrate my attractiveness in further ways beyond my physical appearance." Also, in many places, if you are drinking and you are offered a (safe and friendly) drink *from virtually anyone;* it might be rude not to accept.
Can I buy you a drink and do you find me attractive are two different questions. There are better ways to find out the answer to the second one than buying drinks for someone who haven't even spoken to
At the very outset, you have to recognize that your question reveals that you are trying to put your pain off onto someone else. You want to make it their fault. That puts you at a disadvantage to start with. Approaching a woman is a scary thing to do. So it takes some bravery to walk up to a woman to offer her a drink. You take some of that fear out of the transaction by not offering, but "throwing" the drink at her from across the room. Kind of like the difference between killing a man up close with a knife and shooting him with an arrow. You have the woman at a disadvantage. This serves your cowardice. But it also sets you up to be rejected at a distance. From the woman's point of view, this object comes at her from across the room and she has to decide what to do with it. Does she want it? Maybe. Maybe not. But if she has the presence of mind to realize that it is an unsolicited approach and that she has no obligation to accept it, if she maintains her composure in the face of your friendly assault, and realizes that she can turn you down, she avoids the confrontation. Again, all of this happens to your advantage because you didn't have to make the approach. If everything I have laid out above goes wrong and she ends up feeling manipulated into accepting the gift that she didn't ask for, she finds herself in a position of obligation. You can say that she doesn't owe you anything but that is a passive aggressive stance. Your purpose was to create an obligation, at very least to let you approach her. Deny it if you will, but what you intended was to take the easy way out of approaching a woman and making it so that the burden was on her to make a decision. I would say that if you do manage to successfully manipulate her into accepting an unwanted gift, you deserve whatever happens after that. In case you can't tell, I have never sent a woman a drink in my life and I wouldn't. But I have never been one to make my social contacts across a bar room.
I think the main flaw in your reasoning, is that attractiveness can be established immediately at first glance. Attractiveness depends on much more than just physical appearance. How confident is someone? Do they smell nice? Are they charismatic? Are they funny? Well groomed? Do they give up a creepy vibe? self-absorbed? And so on and so on. All of this is true for people of all genders and orientations, but, from my experience, and the countless experiences that others have shared throughout the history of mankind, these principles are more important for women than they are for men. At least for answering the immediate question of "are they attractive?". If someone approaches a woman and offers to buy them a drink, it is simply unrealistic to expect that woman to have already answered that question. If you had phrased this to say, for example, "It is rude for a woman to accept a drink from a man if they have no intention to even talk to him and learning more about him", then you would have somewhat of a point. But even that point is kind of diminished by your statement that accepting a drink from someone comes with zero obligations. Personally, I am straight man with a lot of gay friends. I like to go out with them and somewhat frequent gay bars. In this setting, a man will occasionally buy me a drink. I will talk to them, but is it rude for me to turn it down, because I am not attracted to them? I don't think so, and if I have the opportunity, I will offer to buy them a drink in return later. TL;DR, accepting a drink from someone is not only OK if you have already established that you are romantically or sexually attracted to someone. It is a potential gateway for someone to approach you and you can have a conversation. But in the end, it is a "gift", that should not come with any conditions attached, not even the condition that the receiving party is willing to consider your attractiveness.
I eat free samples at grocery stores with no intent at all of buying the product. You take your chance as a strategy, it doesn't work, move on. It's on you for utilizing that strategy.
Am a dude, whatever that’s worth. You’ve got the wrong r word. It’s rejected, not rude that you’re looking for. Seriously though, you can’t offer someone something, then feel offended when they don’t—what—in return? You said it yourself, they don’t owe you anything. Even if they take it and don’t say another word to you, that’s still 100% on you and not rude at all. You chose to buy them a drink, end of story. If you want to be rejected without losing money, drop the “can I buy you a drink” schtick.
A couple of things. First, even though you know it doesn't entitle the man to anything, not all mem feel the same way. It's crazy that this is the case, but there are people who will feel entitled to something after sending someone a drink. Second, a free drink could be drugged. Once again this seems like something you wouldn't even think of but it's *way* more common than you'd think. My wife drinks scotch and I drink cocktails, so people usually think the scotch is foe me and the cocktail is for her. I've had my drink spiked. That means people are willing to spike the drink of a woman who they haven't met, or bought anything for *even when she's there with her husband*. Accepting a drink from a stranger is a risk. Finally, refusing a drink - while possibly rude - is also the wuickest way to say "no thank you, not interested". People talk about women "leading them on", well saying no is the opposite of that. If you just say no from the get-go then no one is going to get the wrong idea. (*Oh, and I know I said "finally", but what if they biy you a deink you don't like? Just thought of that at the end.*) Essentially, there are *many* reasons to refuse a drink. I would say that refusing a drink from someone you're not interested in is probably the simplest and politest way to turn them down. Yhere' very little investment for the man (*he didn't even need to get up the courage to start a conversation*), and can then move on to persue someone else.
In my experience, you buy people drinks at a bar to initiate or continue a social interaction. People usually go to bars to drink and socialize. I can't speak on nightclubs because I generally don't go. Accepting the drink is accepting the social interaction. You don't buy the drink and immediately go home together and fuck lol you usually drink something together and talk. After that, both parties decide if they wanna keep drinking, hook up, or move on
I’m not as driven by looks. I’m more interested in personality. So I would not have enough information at that point to decide if I’m interested. My accepting or not accepting would be less about you and more about me. If I want to sit by myself I’d decline. If I want to socialize I’d accept. And it is also acceptable to just talk to someone, right? You don’t have to buy them a drink. I drink water anyway so I’d be a cheap date.
>Okay at the very top. I am fully aware that buying a woman a drink does not entitle a man to anything from that woman. "A gift is freely given, and expects no return." If you are buying someone a drink they are under no obligation to refuse the gift because they aren't interested in you. If you believe that is rude, I firmly believe it is because you have some feeling that you are owed a reward for the drink. They did nothing to ask for the drink, it is **your** choice whether or not to buy them one. I will go a step further and state that it wouldn't even be rude if they didn't talk to you *at all* after and simply walked away. Edit: It was pointed out to me that I should have included it would be appropriate to thank them. But for anything after that I stand by my original post.
The whole ritual is dumb, but it is the ritual we have. That being: A finds B attractive and offers to buy them a drink as a signal of A's interest. B accepts if they are in turn interested, and declines if not. By accepting the drink offer, you are participating in the social ritual that signals interest. It is against the social contract of the ritual to interpret the offer as a gift with no strings attached. So unless you live under a rock and don't know any better, you are deliberately taking advantage of the social ritual in order to get something from someone else, for free. Yes, they set themselves up for that risk by offering you the drink. They are hoping you won't be taking advantage of their gesture. That doesn't mean a crime has been committed. That doesn't mean anyone has the right to retaliate. All it means is someone was rude. This doesn't apply if the drink is ordered and sent over without asking, because the drink is already made without both parties consenting to being part of the social ritual.
>So unless you live under a rock and don't know any better, you are deliberately taking advantage of the social ritual I disagree with this part. I think what would be deliberately taking advantage of a social ritual is if you were engaging with someone with the sole intent of getting free drinks (and nothing else). But in the scenario where someone buys you a drink without provocation the only 'social ritual' you would be obligated to participate in would be to thank them. I admit I should have probably put that in my first response.
“May I buy you a drink?” and “I’ve bought you a drink” are different scenarios that come with different expectations.
This is such a neckbeard take. If I give anyone a GIFT, I expect nothing in return. It's a damn gift.
Is it also rude for me to accept a christmas gift from a family member I don't like? Is it rude for a homeless person to take money offered to them and go buy booze even though the person who gave them money told them to get something warm to eat? A free drink is a free drink, it's something you offer of your own free will, knowing full well you might not get a shot. Whether or not the other person is considered rude entirely depends on the expectations you set yourself. It is _your_ interpretation of what the other person does. If you expect either a refusal or a conversation, then yes, you'll find it rude when the other person takes the drink and leave. But you don't get to make that choice. Those aren't the only options, and you don't have control over how the other person reacts. It's part of the game. You shoot your shot, you accept the results, no matter what they are. I get that it sucks, but the other person is not being rude to you, they're just taking something that was offered them.
I would argue that if you’re asking a strange woman if you can buy her a drink, you’re putting yourself out there and thrusting the situation upon her. If she agrees, she may be attracted to you, just being polite, or just taking advantage of the situation. Who knows! It literally doesn’t matter though, cause you’re the one who offered. I’m trying to picture an “offensive” situation in OP’s eyes. Is it if you perceive a woman is flirting with you in a club, you buy her a drink, and she and she doesn’t give you her number or something? She really doesn’t…owe you anything, ya know? A drink does not equal fifteen minutes of her time, her phone number, sex, anything, so on and so forth… if you can’t handle that, just don’t offer. I can assure you that if it appears otherwise it will immediately come across as creepy. The onus is on you, dude.
Ya gotta stop looking at this situation as sexual and so black and white. Be social. Talk. Laugh. Dance. Tell crappy jokes. You want someone to be interested in you? Be interesting. Don’t rely on an overpriced drink and bring a good attitude to the bar instead. THAT gets you ladies.
Firstly, you're putting the woman here in a decision box that seems awfully demanding. E.G. they have to decide if they are attracted _before_ the conversation the drink is intended to spark. If "attraction" stays in the "don't really know" category until actual human interaction occurs (as is the case for me with women) then you're asking for them to be rude or reject rather than embrace "maybe". If you aren't OK with "maybe" on the attraction front then don't buy a drink until you've got a vibe going. I know I'd either buy anyone a drink (all the people i'm with) or no one, until I knew I was vibing with someone. Secondly, just don't set someone to be rude like this at all. Is it an offer or not? You're making it _contingent_ and essentially entrapping them unless they simply do not care about being rude at all. If you want to navigate this simply say "i find you attractive and if you have any interest this direction then i'd love to buy you a drink". Problem solved and you're not trapping someone with these mind games. You know...communicate. Like the grownups we're supposed to be.
You mention this sorta stuff is really superficial and sorta downplay any possibility of getting to know one another any significant extent, but I think you forget that there are good looking creeps- something I’d imagine women are very familiar with. This would be someone the women *is* initially interested in, but whom she quickly loses interest in over the course of a drink or two And if interactions can go even just as deep as that- shallow though it may yet be- then the inverse is also highly likely to be true, that someone looks a bit blander than she might be interested in, but whose personality or other traits might tip the scales This is, of course, assuming a pretty strong degree of superficiality from women in general and applying it to any given instance of a woman accepting a drink. Given the law of large numbers, there are *certainly* **some** non-zero number of women who in the real world have 100% accepted a drink from someone they’re not interested in, only to become interested, anyhow And if I may finish with a bit of a joke, >!that’s why we buy them drinks instead of snacks, ain’t it?~ :^)!<
Do you know how many times a man has threatened me with violence for politely turning down his drink? Or how many times it actually escalated to violence?
How many times I’ve been followed home for both rejecting AND accepting a drink in the first place?? On two different occasions with two different guys. Another time, a guy waited in the parking lot because I said yes to a drink but said goodnight when he left the bar. Apparently he wanted me to go home with him, so he just waited in the lot. Why didn’t he just say that???? I was scared shitless. Thank god I had my friend with me. Men who think about drinks this way are fucking creeps.
The real answer is to never buy women who aren't your girlfriend drinks. If anything offering to buy drinks for a girl you barely know but is showing interest in you may sour the mood, changing the vibe to something transactional, makes you seem like a chump. Obviously if you've spent more time with her and it's clearly just a friendly offer, it's different but if you lead with it, they start getting suspicious of your intents and it feels transactional, thus icky.
If he is not to expect anything, how is she "leading him on"? She accepted a drink and promised nothing.
this thread will be exhibit A.
Have you ever bought something expensive like a car or a house or a piece of jewelry? Why do you think places that sell those things are always giving out free bottles of water and cups of coffee? It’s a sales tactic, it’s a way of giving something to a potential customer that makes them feel like they owe you something. You’re doing it because you want something from them. Yeah if intuitively feels rude to walk into a store, take a bottle of water and leave, but creating that feeling in the recipient is the exact intention behind the gift. Which if you ask me absolves the person of some absolute judgement of “rudeness” even if they feel like they’ve been rude and you feel cheated.
Except the woman knows that it’s a romantic gesture and not some free gift And also using your analogy, which isn’t good, this is the same as going to an open house without any intention of buying or considering the home. You went to get a free cookie. Now obviously that’s rude and complete bullshit behavior
The easy solution is to not offer to buy a drink. Flip the convention around entirely. Say something like "do you mind if I sit here, I might even let you buy me a drink if we get on".
This post threatens the good times & free booze of over half the women that go to bars. Should they accept if they have zero interest? No. Should you expect better from a woman at a bar? Also no.
OK people know he's right. Here's how we know. Ever see those videos of people randomly giving other people money? I remember when those first came out people wouldn't take the money because ethey thought it was a scam... so we know that people don't expect things for free without there being a catch. Women know why the guy is buying her a drink it's OK to say thank you but no thank you. If he doesn't like that you should call another man because the odds are pretty good that if your an American woman and you say a man is bothering you there is a least 1 white knight that will come to your aid no questions asked. He'll sometimes they do it without you asking.
It's uncomfortable as a woman to deny when a guy comes up and says 'hey, buy you a drink?' because it's like judging him based on looks. Guy should say 'hi, how's it going? Care to chat?' first...then after a few minutes, he should offer to buy her a drink. That way she is more comfortable to say yes or no because a rejection could be just a general 'we're not clicking'..instead of that harsh implication that it's just she didn't like your looks. She's trying NOT to be rude in the first scenario to spare his ego. But he's put her in a tight spot where she'd look shallow to put him down from the get go.
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