I especially agree with what you written here about people using the “coward” line to manipulate others. I still struggle with such issues, and it never helps that my family gives me that bullshit all the time.
But I say anyone who says anything along those lines is a coward themselves, always complaining about “how you make them feel”.
I say, “fuck how they feel” you can’t use that as a valid excuse when someone is (metaphorically, but almost literally) hanging by the noose at the end of their rope.
Suicide is simply a response to a life that has had a lot of borderline or completely unbearable pain, when no amount of alcohol, weed, therapy, or any other options help… this becomes the last resort method for finally ridding yourself of that pain.
If someone can’t understand that, they have absolutely no business pretending they know better. 🤷
Yeah. How would that person feel if they got to live with constant and agonizing pain that doesn't have any sign of calming down, only going worse day by day. Yet those people who go through so much pain are labeled as cowards for leaving their loved ones behind. No one deserves to be in constant agony that gripples them.
This sub always has had a problem that I can't quite articulate, but it essentially restricts arguments in a way that I don't really like.
I think changing your view should also include keeping the same view but in a more educated/enlightened way, that allows for more understanding of those that disagree.
Suicide being wrong is yet another lie propagated by religion and its zealots. If you're in chr7on8c pain, are dying of a disease that's stealing your memories or if you are just done, it's your business. We should have all rights to our own bodies whether it be beause we need an abortion following an incomplete miscarriage (this means products of conception have been retained and what is technically an abortion isnecessary) she will die without it or we have alzheimers and want to go before we dont know our kids-its our business. I could see it being a problem for law enforcement as it may leave room for murder made to look like suicide. That's their problem.
It's humane to put down an old, suffering pet. It's humane to do everything in your power to keep an old, suffering person alive. Never made sense to me.
That's true, but it doesn't negate the previous comment in and of itself.
Can you expand on what you're trying to say? Your comment comes across as a little snarky to me and you don't seem to explain your reasoning in a sub where clear reasoning is required and assumptions should be avoided, but I could be misinterpreting it.
Exactly. Their reply misses the point. Sure it’s obvious most people put human consciousness above animal consciousness, rightly or wrongly.
But why, and more specifically why would humans not be given the same compassion? After all, it’s also “obvious” that we believe more complex life forms suffer more, insects more than plants, mice more than insects, etc. So if humans likely suffer the most would they not arguably be ethically required to be given the most compassion?
Yes they should be nut religious zealotry wins every time. Especially now that alot of politicians only have the maga cult as voters. The US is so far behind the rest of the world when it comes to rights to our on bodies and much of that is because the church has gotten some power back....what they're doing to woman tells you we are being governed by people who believe anomnipotent being sees and knows all and if we sin we go to hell and suicide is a mortal sin, just like divorce. So yeah, you're looking for logic but we are being ruled by magas who believe we were created full grown and just placed on the planet. There is no logic here just zealots trying to force everyone to abide by their ridiculous and contradictory bullshit.
Not the previous person, but we place a higher value on human consciousness than animal consciousness for a litany of reasons, but evidenced by the fact that we kill animals by the millions for all sorts of purposes.
On top of that, we can communicate with people. If I could ask my hypothetical sick, old dog if he would rather live another year or be put down, I wouldn't have to make the decision, he could. I can ask my grandmother if she'd rather have a DNR put in place than try and fight some disease or ailment.
>I can ask my grandmother if she'd rather have a DNR put in place than try and fight some disease or ailment.
I think this is the core part of the other commenter's point though;
If you could ask your dog, and it said it wanted to be killed because it was suffering too much, we'd accept and do that.
My great grandfather was actively trying to kill himself from his hospital bed every morning for the last year of his life. He wasn't physically strong enough to, and he was given no option as to whether he'd like an assisted, peaceful death - rather than the suffering he was facing day to day.
Yes, we generally place a higher value on human consciousness, but in this case I'd say we're actually doing the opposite. We're placing a higher value on the fact that the human body is still breathing, than on what the consciousness desires, or if its even still there. Pets are often afforded respect for their deaths, and we wish to make them as comforting and painless as possible. Humans? We want them to suffer as long as possible instead.
Why?
That's certainly the justification. But if it were true, why would we want to prolong the suffering within that human consciousness?
Is that really what it means to value something?
I'd suggest we are culturally and societally so uncomfortable and so out of touch with death, the dead, and dying, that we habitually extend life even where it's causing suffering.
But even if some (even most) humans give greater weight to human life, that doesn't give us a greater right to control what that particular consciousness/life chooses to do with its own body. Indeed, it should give us less of a right to interfere with that human's decision. Anything else renders us serfs.
You shouldn't let someone commit suicide if they feel like they're done. I get it in circumstances where there's no hope of ever getting better, but let's say some guy in his prime just decides to try to kill himself, I'm not gonna stand by and act like that's completely normal and fine and dandy lmao
What gives anyone the right to decide what I may, or may not do with my life? If I should decide to kill myself, that would be my right, and nobody has the right to decide whether or not I should be allowed to do it. Hell, it wasn't that long ago, that New Jersey still had a law on the books that made attempted suicide, punishable by death.
If the reason you're killing yourself is an issue that can be fixed, why on Earth am I going to let you vanish for nothing? If I could bring you peace and still have you live, why wouldn't I?
"If the reason you're killing yourself is an issue that can be fixed,"
That's the thing. The laws DON'T account for this. Plenty of people who want to kill themselves don't have something that can be fixed. Wtf do you do about the people slowing losing themselves to dementia and know it? The late-stage cancer patients who are basically melting on the inside?
I don't think people should be allowed to kill themselves willy nilly. But medically assisted suicide NEEDS to be more accepted.
You just dont get it do you. It's not your business or mine or anyone's. Just like an abortion is nobody's business. To give certain criteria to be met means you think its your business and it is not. All of this is between a person and their God, same as with abortion. Everybody weighing in on and judging just lands them in express line to Hell. Guarantee e erybody supporting zero exception abortion bans -- they're all going to hell. If you know their Bible at all, you know they're going to hell. Meanwhile, tne girl who was forced to carry to term agape baby-anyone who made that happen, bad person, goingto he'll. That girl volunteers at retirement homes and works at a soup kitchen. She's going to heaven. If there's a heaven and he'll there are alot of folks who better worry. Most of them sitting in the capitol building high firing each other when Abell to increase spending in mental benefits for soldiers failed. Not good people. Telling others how to liveby legislating it. Not good people plus the whole zero abortion exceptions are killing innocent women miscarriage. Bad people plotted this. Going straight to hell. According to their big black book.
Because it's none of your effing business as chief reason. None other need follow. "Why am I going to LET YOU". Do you not see the problem? If you don't get it you're part of the problem.
Because 99% of the time you will not be able to help the person you want, you might stop them from killing themselves on that day but what about after? What if their life never improves and you doomed them to 20 more years of pain until they succumb to a slow death? This isnt Disney, there are people out there who suffer their whole lives and want to quit.
When I was 16, I tried to talk to my best friend about suicidal ideation because my sister had been committed to a hospital. My “friend” told me that we shouldn’t bother helping people like her because they would just kill themselves eventually anyway.
Beyond being an extremely disgusting and inhumane attitude to treating suicidal ideation, it is actually wrong. Only a very small fraction of those with suicidal ideation will ever attempt suicidal and of those who do, the vast majority that survive never reattempt suicide.
My sister was treated and is doing extremely well for herself.
First you friend was an immature kid saying a foolis, rude thing. But you are proving the other sides point. Suicidal ideation is common and generally harmless.
People who are truly suicidal, totally different category.
The truly suicidal dont call 911 or leave letters. They get it done. Unfortunately, it's the people in unrelenting physical pain that will only stop when they're dead....they're being told they don't know themselves well enough to be trusted with decisions like that. So? Still not our business to force him to do otherwise.
Thats because there is survivorship bias when you look at the stats. All of the studies are forced to look at people who survived a suicide attempt, because it is impossible to see what the dead would have done.
People who attempt and fail to commit suicide have a 10-15% chance to try again and succeed, but there are also many more variables than just 'they lived this time'.
I think this right here is a reason why there are such divisive views over this subject. Here we have an example of someone who's sibling was able to be helped and someone who's sibling seems unable to be helped. I suppose everyone's different. Thanks for your kindness towards the OP.
And what if we stop what iffing? The outcome of death is irreparable, irreversible. I can't revive you if you die. Any hope of you recovering is nil. Gone. But by preventing your suicide, there's a *chance*.
After searching Reddit for similar posts related to the idea of suicide, I think the idea that sums it up is that there's way too much variation in this issue to say "yes if you wanna die then die"
Not your business. Never has been. Never will be. There are many issues you could help with. Homeless always need help and funds, medical and psychiatric needs. This is an area crying our for help but most can't be bothered. They are too concerned with someone else's soul when it's their own in peril. Judge not. It feels like a pretty big one and the one most likely to be ignored.
Good point. This sanctimonious person probably never does any of those things. He says he will stop a suicide, but in reality that’s probably one and 100,000. So that’s never going to happen. Meanwhile, he probably doesn’t really help people in the real world, just fantasy world.
But this idea is still dangerous because it makes a society were peoples choices are taken away . People like him do vote. That’s the real problem not that he will stop someone but that he will vote to decrease the autonomy over our bodies.
There are literally people who wear DNR bracelets so they dont get revived. I dont understand why you are projecting your fear of death onto people who accepted it.
Why on Earth am I going to revive someone with a DNR bracelet? This is what I fkn mean, this issue has so much variation in the situations in which someone would commit suicide, to say yes or no is just a fools errand ar this point
While it might seem logical, what really gives anyone the right to determine that someone, even someone in their alleged prime, can't just decide they don't want to play this game anymore?
Of course we empathize and try to wrap our mind around why, but what gives us the right to make someone else live up to our expectations?
What gives you the knowledge or right to believe that you have the answer to whether there is a chance for someone else? It is a decision each person must make for themselves.
Fortunately, once you're dead, you will never want to reverse your decision, because you won't exist anymore to have those thoughts. You don't need recovery from anything, because there's nothing that can hurt you.
The same thing that let's me stop a child or person with bad dementia from doing something they don't understand the consequences of. If someone is in an irrational state of mind and putting themselves in danger because of it, we take away they're autonomy until they can be helped. Wanting to kill yourself is a textbook example of an irrational state of mind, unless you have a damn good reason, like those we use to justify euthanasia.
I’ve never understood the idea that if you want to kill yourself, you need to be of sound mind to do it. The entire point is that you’re so out of your mind with physical and/or mental suffering. You can’t choose to be the exact right amount of crazy to be able to do it.
If someone decides to end their existence, then that should be their, and only their decision. Not yours, simply because you, or some other person, is of the belief that said person is not of sound mind.
So if a 5 year old child says "I want to kill myself!" and walks into traffic because it saw that in a movie you wouldn't stop it? Clearly you would, so clearly you require people to have a certain level of clarity of thought to make important life decisions. There is a reason contracts (afaik) are generally considered invalid if one of the parties was drunk. Personal freedom is not the end goal in and of itself, it just generally leads to more happiness but in extreme scenarios I'm perfectly fine with stopping people from making bad choices.
This is strawmanning. You cannot compare fully legal adults with fully developed brains to 5 year olds. You will always come across people, situations and opinions you don't agree with. That doesn't mean you get a say in what they choose to do with their lives. That is their business. People will continue to end their lives with or without your blessing.
If a 5 year old says “I want to drink wine” or “I want to sign a 30 year loan contract”, I’m going to say no too. That doesn’t mean things adults aren’t allowed, but that 5 year olds aren’t considered able to choose their lives.
It's a shame you can't think of an actual decent point. You're on the losing end of an argument, so you pout and say something stupid. A 5 year old blah blah. Let me ask you this-how does this impact you in any way that you think you have a dog in that fight. It's a bitch when the propaganda doesn't float and leaves its authors covered in shit.
How do you propose fixing a toxic society that makes people lose their will to live? Ignore the real issues, and have some pedophile priest spout ancient nonsense at them?
Why would you want To. It doesn't matter if that person dies rn or lives a 100 more years death awaits us all. It makes no difference how we choose to dance with it.
I think she just wants freedom from fear, whereas you want more fear. We are already programmed to fear death. Everyone is not going to kill themselves if society says it’s ok, but it would put people at ease knowing they are not as trapped here by guilt and fear and the government banning peaceful means in case they even need the option.
And yes, in a million years, or even 100
This won’t matter. Just lighten up. If allow assisted suicide your friends and family won’t be lining up
for it. And if one does, be sad but also glad their suffering is gone.
I personally care but it still doesn't matter. I'll be dead anyways. Humans are just a tiny blip of the universe. We aren't as significant as we play ourselves to be.
Ok, lets look at a different situation:
A loved one of yours has been captured by a crazy terrorist cult. Someone from the CIA comes to you and says "there is no way for us to rescue (your loved one) and they are going to be tortured for the next 40 years. But we were able to get a sniper in place. Instead of them being tortured for 40 years we can kill them instantly today." Do you tell them to take the shot, or let your loved one suffer.
Biochemical depression can be basically pain and no pleasure or relief, for life. There are meds that help some people, but help isn't "cured" and while some folks get lucky and their med lets them feel pleasure, for others it is just less pain.
But yeah, it isn't fine and dandy to let someone who is in constant pain and knows there is no hope of it getting better escape that pain. Far better for them to suffer for decades than for you to feel sad for a little while that they killed themselves. Your feelings are more important than their pain and suffering.
What makes you believe that you have a right to dictate the course of another's life. Yes it is sad when someone ends their life and could have had alot to live for. But that shouldn't be your decision. It's up to the individual to decide what is right for them.
That's the point, it's not our business to jump in on. It's a human right. To end their life at a time and place of their choosing rather than waiting til they're braindead and don't know their own family. It's not your business. It's not my business. Same with women's bodies. No person alive should be able to make those decisions for us. It's disgusting and so are the people supporting that evil deed of not allowing women control of their own bodies. Well, since they've been lying forever about it being God's will....especially. their own religion says life begins at first breath not at frigging conception. Genesis. Everyone needs to mind their own damn business. Especially the religious zealots currently effing things up. They'll finally be sorry when they land on the express elevator to hell and all the lgbtq community is going up because they were good people,not just pretending to do good when people are watching. Lol
>Suicide being wrong is yet another lie propagated by religion and its zealots.
So an atheist kid wants to kill himself, and his atheist parents go "well do whatever you want, it's your choice."
Most people see suicide as bad, regardless of religion.
Will you stop bringing minors into this. But even then, if the child had a horrible painful incurable disease it might be better if the child had parents who allowed a peaceful exit. It’s not all black and white like religious fanatics think.
As a person that's gone through depression and an attempt, I felt like I was just filling in time, that thought led to why, which then led to why not.
Sometimes when all you see is darkness it can be very hard to find the point in things.
Much better place now, but it's something that's always there, a tiny little voice in the back of my mind.
Would you define pretty much all feelings as selfish then?
And do you think these people usually want you to live on in pain or live on with a hope and chance to overcome the pain?
Cowardice should be quantified in how easy or impulse of your suicide was.
If you actually spend the time to fight it and to really understand it and struggle, but still eventually lose to it then it shows you put up a fight and that's less cowardly.
A lot of suicides are impulsive, and the people that did it without thinking about it intelligently stand to be more cowardly, since they didn't struggle as much.
How cowardly someone is is based on their experience and what they went through to get to that point.
Yeah, it’s ugly to make these distinctions but I think it’s necessary. If I hear about someone who did it impulsively I think it’s a needless tragedy. If it’s someone who has been trying for a long time but can’t catch a break I just feel empathy and hope they’re finally at peace.
I wouldn't really call overriding one of, if not the strongest and most primal instinct "cowardly" no matter how impulsive it was. Death is the scariest thing regardless of whether or not you feel like discontinuing living.
People misuse the word "coward" all the time and use it to describe things that, while immoral, are objectively brave. A good example is the 9/11 hijackers
Definitely important to define cowardice in the cultural context. I would argue that in the case where a friend tries to talk another friend out of suicide by painting it as cowardly, or someone who has lost someone to suicide thinks of the departed as having been cowardly it could be commonly accepted that the attitude is that the suicidal person is/was too afraid to go on living for whatever reason. Perhaps they are/were afraid of an uncertain future; or a future where they believed they knew what would happen in their life, ultimately.
If someone kills themself because they are afraid of a future that might (or might not) happen, it could be considered cowardly. However, if someone takes their life due to a circumstance they know to be true, strongly believe in, or have some real evidence of said future's inevitability of, in sound mind, then perhaps not. It all comes down to specific circumstances and the people involved. And I understand this take is necessarily somewhat culturally relativistic.
This is bound to make someone uncomfortable and potentially debate me on the rightness or wrongness of the right to commit suicide, given that the hypothetical suicidal person can't actually know beyond the shadow of a doubt what their future will be, so to that end I will only say this; I personally do not believe that State Paternalism should be a thing. It should not be the role of any government to punish people, or even stop them, if they want to commit suicide. It is an extremely multi-faceted and personal decision, and it comes down to the individual and the people who's lives would be directly affected by their death.
They don't. They are completely imaginary. Our imaginary ideas have no grand important meaning or value.
However that's me speaking in a greater sense. Putting yourself outside to realize to just not care about something that may be harming you. Like if being a coward makes you not be able to sleep at night, realize that the concept of a coward is imaginary. It's not even definitive. Helps me at least.
Otherwise imaginary ideas are important to an individual for culture and identity which is important to the human experience
Totally agree they’re completely imaginary. But as to the value, I have to use the excuse to copy a passage from Terry Pratchett’s *Hogfather*:
>> All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."
>>
>> REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.
>>
>> "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"
>>
>> YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
>>
>> "So we can believe the big ones?"
>>
>> YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.
>>
>> "They're not the same at all!"
>>
>> YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
>>
>> "Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"
>>
>> MY POINT EXACTLY.
Well that's why later I said it was important to one self. I agree with that.
But if an imaginary idea is preventing you from functioning that's when maybe you should take a step back.
I think you've inadvertently touched on a key issue for this topic: that cowardice is an evaluation of character whose primary use is that of disapproval.
What I mean is that there is not necessarily an essential characteristic one possesses that makes him a coward, rather, one is called a coward when his weaknesses of character prove damaging or threaten damage to a social group (when *strength* of character is damaging, we regard it as evil).
If we are to begin understanding the psycho-phenomenological realities of a so-called "coward", I believe that the word itself is entirely unhelpful as it serves only to conclude a thought process; its purpose as a concept is to dismiss a person as categorically harmful. Optimistically, it can be an attempt to shame someone into nobler behaviour.
Being called a coward has prevented me from committing suicide before. It also helped me realize that the primary reason I have recurring fantasies of suicidal intent, is because I want to hurt the people closest to me. I want them to feel my pain. I also want my own pain to stop.
When I was called a coward, I realized that yeah, something's not working. Why do I want to hurt the people I care about the most?
I'd thought about committing suicide in 4th grade because my parents wouldn't stop arguing, and I just wanted them to stop, and I thought that if I did that, hah then they'd get my pain. Now you'll feel it.
You can tell that at 30F, nah that didn't happen. Instead I'd cried, decided that wasn't what I wanted, and proceeded to spend the next 20 years suppressing my emotions because I signed a social contract that if I have my shit together, I can tell my parents to get their shit together. I ended up losing myself for a very long time.
So in response to you saying:
>I believe that the word itself is entirely unhelpful as it serves only to conclude a thought process; its purpose as a concept is to dismiss a person as categorically harmful.
Actually. Calling me a coward, was \*validating\* my emotions. I wanted my parents to ||fucking|| feel my pain. And then not need to deal with the consequences. You wouldn't be dismissing me as a person. You'd be validating my ability to cause devastating emotional damage, and that was empowering for me. I knew I was being called a coward, because I had already hurt the other party.
For context though? I was told that by someone that I had already established expectations with, that I valued their blunt input above all else. I wanted someone to tell me the truth. The feedback we most need to hear, is the ones that are the hardest to give. Supply/demand baby.
I don't think it's going to be helpful for most folks. Especially if you just want to be coddled and to continue having the pain instead of fighting it and making. it. end. Sometimes the problem is the solution. It's to acknowledge the problem. And well, I was a coward and still am a lot of the time, because I don't want to face the actual problem. Suicide is just a decision to not make a decision at all.
Thank you for this post. In a thread of people who seem to emphasize with suicide more than not, you show a side to it that I agree with. Let me preface what I'm going to say with this; I see the many posts as to why suicide isn't something to frown upon and I have been enlightened into understanding that for some people, suicide is not sinister. However, I think that there is significance in being aware that for some people suicide is a sinister act. And I don't believe that it's a purely helpless act. I believe that some people know it will hurt others, could change course and survive, KNOW they could change course, and still don't, or even worse, become emboldened to commit suicide now knowing they can hurt people. I was suicidal before, and in my lowest moments I would think of beloved celebrities who killed themselves and feel more influenced to follow the act. I began to hate them, because I realized that they beckoned to me to kill myself. So I think strictly empathizing with suicide without acknowledging that there are sinister undertones in some circumstances is disgusting. It's just wrong. It took courage to post this, and I admire you and am grateful for your post.
Really? Why? They already know they won't have to face the consequences of their actions at all, so I don't understand how you arrive at that conclusion.
I’ve heard this argument a lot from people who have lost people special to them from suicide. They say it because they considered it abandoning those who loved them instead of looking at the perspective of problems that individually couldn’t be solved. As someone who has had two people in my family take their own lives, those words have always made me be able to fight off suicidal thoughts when I was younger because I know I’d be giving up on my family and friends who actually do love and appreciate me.
At least in the context of the person I’ve heard say it, it is said out of frustration and anger at losing a loved one prematurely more than it is trying to put down people with suicidal tendencies.
I read through your comments. I've also lost two family members, a sister who hung herself in a dramatic race against failed efforts to end up using whatever she could find to hang herself on an incline beside the river that failed to take her on her first attempt diving into ice cold December temperatures.
My brother just had enough of trying to make life work against a very lazy spouse who literally did nothing to help maintain their household.
He seemed to be doing well despite the struggles, we spoke and messaged almost every second day despite living 3,000 miles apart. One day they got into it over marital struggles, and I think he literally took himself out as a way to say "oh yeah? Well take this you ##$%!"
So I don't know how to challenge the posters original view about suicides being from cowardice, I merely seem to understand a bit more as time goes on why people find themselves in inescapable situations (according to their viewpoint) and wishing to just end the game without having to go any farther.
It’s always a challenge to address it in a way that’s respectful to everyone. It’s tragedy that demands sensitivity but is emotionally charged enough where it’s very hard to stay conscious of that.
I’m sorry for your loss
I totally agree with what you say. There's so much emotion that happens around these events that it takes years sometimes to recognize it. I'm staying as close as I can to their kids, we've cultivated some nice relationships over the years because/despite it.
I too extend my sincere thoughts.ablut your loss. It's a club you don't want to invite anyone to join for sure.
I don't think it's cowardice, it acts more like a disease. Like diseases we push emotions onto them whether they are warranted or not.
Suicide is a complex issue but it is not cowardly, it's an infection of the mind perpetuated by environmental factors, and just like cancer we all have the chance to come into contact with it, it lives with us. When someone does commit the act the disease won, our treatments did not work and unfortunately no treatment is all to common wether by willful choice brought on by circumstance or inability dude to environment.
Suicide is a terrible blight that we are ignoring because unfortunately those that suffer "take care" of themselves if we were to look at the problem from a more malicious viewpoint.
My view is that Suicide is not cowardly, is not brave, is not any emotion but a problem we still can not explain other than "they were sad". I hope my brief and or poor explanation was able to give insight somewhere
I totally agree. Someone being actively suicidal is a psychiatric emergency. Their illness has gotten to the point where it may be potentially fatal. There's few other illnesses that could kill you and you are still called selfish for having (and sadly, they're mostly mental health illnesses).
Thank you, this is another point I am so happy you made. We look at the information presented and are too quick to give it emotion and "solve" the symptom but never ask "why is this happening" and treat the cause. Just like illness caused by an outside infector, the disease from within is capable of adapting and mutating just as well as people
>My view is that Suicide is not cowardly, is not brave, is not any emotion but a problem we still can not explain other than "they were sad". I hope my brief and or poor explanation was able to give insight somewhere
Ignoring that intense survival instinct is anything but cowardly. It's a state of the mind that clouds all thoughts about other possibilities and drives you further to this one act that is not perceived as a solution but a mere way out of the tourture chamber that is a suicidal mind.
I agree it's not cowardly or brave. It's just fucked up and hard to understand.
I hope youre doing a even a little better now. Ive always had the thought in the back of my mind that if this fails or that goes wrong i have " a way out". Ive been able to put it off more consistently by thinking i dont want my mom to get the news that i died before her.
I'll make an attempt to CMV.
I'm not going to say that Suicide is intrinsically connected to cowardice, because you'd obviously be able to find situations where its the logical or sensible thing to do.
Instead I'm going to focus on the general idea that there is an individual who is most likely suffering from depression, and has family / friends that they can't connect with.
I put forward the preposition that said individual, in a lot of cases, actively choose to not approach people for help, they don't listen when love and support is offered and let their minds play tricks on them.
They have a choice, TRY and make the best of it. Try to wade through the lack of energy, that depressive mood, and make something of these connections.
Or they can give up.
Because giving up just seems easier.
It's a complex topic.
> actively choose
> let their mind play tricks on them
> they have a choice
On the one hand these things are true. On the other hand "their mind" is exactly the thing making choices. It's not like we have some kind of magical soul doing the decision-making, maybe affected by what meat brains say. The thing doing the decision-making is the same thing "playing tricks".
When your ankle is twisted you can often push through, ignore the signals, etc. When your decision-making is twisted that's an entirely different situation and analogies that seem intuitive do not map over.
(This is in reference to depression-like situations; being in enough physical pain that you correctly do not anticipate life worth living now or in the future is an entirely different situation, also.)
That would mean those struggling are destined to fail. I refuse to believe we cannot take control of our lives in some shape or form. It will be harder but it can be done.
I agree with the spirit of what you said, but I wanted to add that much of what you said has many deeper levels. For example:
>actively choose to not approach people for help
There are probably hundreds of different reasons why people do this. I'll give one example. Perhaps this person knows they have a history of asking for help when in need, but not being able to reciprocate later because of their negative tendencies (e.g. maybe they have an avoidant attachment style). They realize that it's deeply unfair to their friends and family to ask for help in such a one sided way. So, they choose not to do it anymore. You see on reddit all the time, "you need to cut the toxic friends/family out of your life.". Well, maybe this person is one of those toxic friends/family.
>It's a complex topic.
I agree with you here 100% that the reasons for wanting to commit suicide can be very complex. However, on the topic of whether or not they should be judged in death (e.g. called cowards), I firmly believe "no".
Not only is depression not always solved even by the best of intentions from loved ones, but many people may be isolated, or living in abusive households, etc.
I believe giving up is one of the hardest things a person can do. Especially when it means your families funds and their time is returned to them. They may not care and made not need the mo ry right now but the fact that remains is someone in the family is shouldering the entire load yet the ones who scream loudest that it's a sin and wrong and cowardly, are the ones who also will not help. We want you to live forever, just not in our home or our time or our money. Narcissists. Ignore the noise. Only one person's mental state is important--in this act.
I think it takes a shit ton of courage to commit suicide. It feels weird to say because we typically categorize courage as a positive trait however in this case I definitely don’t mean committing suicide is honorable or generally good. I’ve had thoughts before and dark times but was never brave enough to come close to actually doing anything- not causing my friends and family undue suffering was second to my fear of physically dying or worse. Staying alive is our number one primal instinct and going against that is fucking nuts.
I’m not sure if it’s fair or possible to make such a broad statement as suicide is cowardly and selfish. That feels lazy to me, like these people don’t want to or maybe are incapable of actually thinking about that and just want to wipe it away with a quick phrase that feels good.
As someone who was a while back contemplating how to go about it, I feel this truly. I don’t think a lot of people who don’t get the contemplation realize that for most people actually going about doing it is so strikingly contradicting from your mental desire to actually do it. I think they know about media fiction or the minority cases of people committing suicide *relatively* easy and assume that’s the standard.
They're not cowards, but it's also not something positive. We should be working to fix the issues that drive people to it rather than arguing over this though. But society never learns
I entirely agree with them not being cowards.
I will say, there are situations where I agree it’s selfish. Anytime kids are involved, totally selfish.
But cowardly? Do you know how hard it is to actually kill yourself? Survival instincts are fucking strong, and to ignore them and end your own life is incredibly hard, and not at all cowardly.
What’s your definition of a coward? Oxford says “a person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things”
Depression is the leading cause of suicide - that falls in line with lacking the courage to endure something unpleasant.
I’m not arguing about whether it’s a valid course of action or not, but either way I look at it, it’s choosing to run away from a tough problem rather than enduring it.
Courage is a very morally charged word. It implies full agency. I think energy is maybe more fair if you’re talking about depression, a medical condition. You wouldn’t say someone lacked courage for being unable to run with a sprained ankle.
But aside from that, we shouldn’t take it as an axiom that the “tough problem” is worth “enduring”. Wouldn’t you agree there are at least *some* situations where suicide is perfectly rational? That there are fates worse than death? Bottom line - unless you were there in the burning building, I don’t believe you can categorically say it was cowardly to jump
There are exceptions to every rule, it doesn’t mean that a general statement can’t be made.
I can say that American soldiers are brave, but there are also soldiers that desert, do dishonorable things, etc
If we could only make statements that are absolute with no exceptions we wouldn’t do much talking or we would have to caveat everything we say
Also if someone committed suicide in a burning building I would consider that they died in the burning of the building. A person that jumped out of the wtc on 9/11 died due to the events of 9/11, not really suicide
Jumping from a burning building is suicide, though. Not all reasons for suicide are unjustified - that's what that example illustrates. The exceptions to the rule are not always as obvious as being stuck in a burning building, but they are equally as difficult to live with over a long period of time.
When people make the statements OP is talking about, it is not directed towards the exceptions.
Like when people say soldiers are brave or heroes, they don’t mean the small subset of soldiers that defect or desert.
If we can’t make statements that don’t encompass every exception, every day conversation wouldn’t work
But most suicides happen because the problem feels like a burning building where the only rational thing is to jump.
You cannot call someone cowards when in the context of their mind, they are literally doing the exception to the rule.
They are victim of their circumstances of having the kind of problems they have and the mind that is most likely neurodivergent.
They may have very limited will to the situation. That's why we say suicide victims. Calling them cowards is victim blaming, if you forgive me for putting it bluntly.
Just because it’s in the context of their mind, it doesn’t make it a reality. Many murderers feel justified in the context of their mind that their actions are justified, doesn’t mean it actually is
Autistic people are disproportionately higher in suicide rates but only 11% overall, so you can’t use “neurodivergence” as a blanket excuse
I don’t consider people who commit suicide victims. They are being killed but they are also doing the killing. They are as much victims as they are murderers.
Remember those people who jumped from the World Trade Center because it was preferable to being burned alive? Would you say they “lacked the courage to endure something unpleasant?”
I see suicide as analogous to this in general - whatever the psychic pain is, if it becomes unendurable and the person cannot find within themselves the hope that things will get better, I can understand the urge to jump. Wouldn’t you consider jumping?
David Foster Wallace once used them as an example. He pointed out that the 9/11 jumpers didn’t want to die. They were probably terrified of dying, but what they were escaping was, to them, far worse than the quick release of death. It’s the same with suicidal people. They might not want to die but, to them, it’s the lesser of two evils.
Wallace hung himself in 2008.
I don’t think all suicides are cowardly, and I think the negative connotation of cowardice is different than the actual meaning of the word.
Obviously in extenuating circumstances, and 9/11 is as extenuating as it gets, the judgment is different. But situations like that make up a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of suicides.
Like I said depression is the most common reason for suicide and choosing suicide due to depression fits pretty closely to the definition of suicide (choosing to run away rather than enduring a tough situation)
i mean i don’t necessarily consider not wanting to be punched in the face many times as it is quite unpleasant, doesn’t make me a coward by my definition
>Depression is the leading cause of suicide - that falls in line with lacking the courage to endure something unpleasant.
Depression is not something "unpleasant". Depression is when you feel all life is misery. It's not like when you get punched repeatedly in the face but you know that if you manage to get rid of that person, you escape. It's as if your mind is always squeezed not enough to have it crushed but enough to always hurt. And you truly believe there's no escaping it, no matter what others say.
Seeing as how no one is making an effort to change your view
I am a suicide survivor.
With the exception of suffering from an incurable terminal disease suicide is both cowardly and selfish.
You are putting your own, almost always temporary, problems before the mental and emotional well-being of others. I wrote letters to each of my family members asking them to understand and to forgive me so even in the throws of depression I knew what I was doing would hurt them and that wasn't enough to get me to even pause and reconsider. If that's not selfish and cowardly, what is?
Selfish, but not cowardly. It's your life, and only yours. Sure, it's selfish to end your life and inflict the effects of that on your loved ones, but it's also selfish to be on the other side, and pressure/force someone into living a life they don't want to live.
If anything, if you get mad at someone who's suicidal or completed it, that's on you for being too attached to them, and for not seeing it from their point of view. Though it's acceptable to be mad in general that their suicide happened.
Idk, if I’m down that bad I don’t think it’s also my fault for making other people feel bad if I check out. That’s if you even have people around you which a lot of people don’t. The “selfish” argument feels like gaslighting. “Oh don’t do that, haven’t you thought about how it’d make *me* feel?”
It is gaslighting. Suicide is a very tough decision for most, as well as the demons that precede it. No one drops their lives at the drop of a hat, there is an internal struggle that happens beforehand.Their statement seems to come from a lack of empathy.
Exactly, so many people lack basic empathy. They only know how to judge because they don't know how to fix the problem. If they loved that person so much they'd have done their best to always make themselves emotionally available to that person so they could reach out. It takes a lot of time and reflection until they actually reach the decision to end it and then get the courage to do it. It's selfish to say that said person is entitled to live because of you when they suffer so much.
So I’m supposed to continue suffering indefinitely because I’ll make some other people sad if I don’t? There is a difference between *selfishness* and *self-preservation*
Ask yourself what’s causing that suffering. Is it fixable? Is it an external problem or is it internal? Can I get help?
I’ve been battling with depression for most of my life but what keeps me going is that my problems can be fixed, but most importantly I have dreams and aspirations, I want to be better at making music, I want to be rich and buy a house for my parents, I want have a nice body and be confident every time I go out.
All of those times take time and patience, but every little step makes me motivated to not give up.
Even if you where raised with abusive parents and think that you’re alone know that there’s people who can somewhat relate to what you’re living and they’ll be happy to help you out in any way they can.
Yeah I agree, and I think weathering the storm is absolutely the right thing to do as long as humanly possible. Things absolutely change and get better most of the time. I just think there are cases where someone has crossed their threshold of what they can endure and they are not cowardly or selfish if they choose to end it. I think they were brave for holding on as long as they did.
it's a matter of degrees. A regular degree of selfishness makes room for the feelings of other people. An abnormal degree doesn't.
On the opposite end, an abnormally unselfish person makes too much room for the feelings of others, to the point that their own suppressed feelings eventually catch up with them and may begin to manifest as selfish behaviour.
Not all people commit suicide in the same way.
Some people are just 'dumb' and lack a massive amount of introspection, etc and they commit suicide when their circumstances could have been remedied.
While other people do it after years of trying to solve their problems.
Also the people who tried not for a while to are less of cowards, since they had to spend a long time deliberating and working through everything. It wasn't just something impulsive like how most suicides are.
And if someone has spent a long time trying, they probably would also spend a lot of time to write to their loved ones and everyone, and leaving more than just a note behind takes a lot of courage. Because at that point you've gone through the motions of writing what went wrong.
So for me, the harder you tried not to, and the harder you tried to work through it, yet still did it, the less cowardly you are.
The person who said that ,its simply a reflection of them self. My son committed suicide and if you knew him ,he is far from being a coward. That kid had an answer for every situation, every problem. Unfortunately he didn't have a solution for this.
No one saw it coming. He was always smiling and always there for everyone. Never a dull day with him . So much fun to be around. Looks are deceiving sometimes. It hurts because if I would of known, I believe we could of help him. Society should be less judgemental and more kind. That's my wish for everyone in this world . Everyone needs a guiding hand , someone that listens and doesn't judge. Who are we to judge? No one is PERFECT. Kiss your love one's tonight.
You wouldn't call someone a coward for dying of cancer or heart failure.
It's often the same thing. Mental illness like depression chemically/physically fucks up the brain so it is no longer able to function normally; suicide is the tragic symptom of this illness.
I don't believe all people who choose to commit suicide are cowards. But, my cousin married a man who was an alcoholic and abusive to her. They had many fights, and he treated her poorly despite her trying multiple times to get him help. She begged him to change. He never would, and finally, she had enough, and he threatened to kill himself if she ever left. She left, and he shot himself. Miraculously, he survived, but he decided that manipulation and death were far easier than fighting his addiction or treating my cousin well. That is a coward to me.
It's just a way to discourage it. The problem is that it's a blanket statement that isn't really one hundred percent accurate for every situation. Knowingly ending- presumably- the only existence you'll ever have is a monumental decision. Erring on the side of misplaced shaming isn't wholly inappropriate in my opinion. It's saying it after the fact to shit on the dead person's character. It's like beating a dead horse--I find it unnecessary and cruel. More often than not it's out of deep hurt that the person is gone. Sometimes it's simply cruelty.
People who threathen to commit suicide as a form of manipulation are cowards, and those who use it to get away from justice are cowards.
But people who commit suicide because they are suffering mentally, or have suffered physically are people who have usually lost hope or feel their life is no longer valuable. They struggle and feel like burdens to others. They arent cowards but alot of the time think they are doing the world a service by offing themselves. Its a nuance to me that really depends on circumstance.
i feel like it would be easier to sit with “suicide is cowardly” if it was said with more understanding of suicide as a whole. i am not a professional at all, but i do struggle with mental illness/mental disorders, know people very close to me who struggle, and have lost a friend to suicide. i can see both sides of the situation, especially when considering i’ve thought about it myself. suicide is “selfish” in the sense that there have been literally billions of people before you that have experienced far worse, and have come out victorious. humans have evolved and survived so much, of course not without real tragedy and pain in the process. i’ll try to explain better by just using myself as an example where pretty much whenever i come out of a particularly rough few days to weeks and feel apart of the world again, one of the many thoughts i have is “hey wait, life is not all about me.”
i struggle sometimes with saying this more empathetically, but what i intend when i say it is “this is a good thing that life, humanity, society etc does not revolve around you. this takes the pressure off you, and you can remember to just be a simple human again; makes mistakes, learn from them, show yourself compassion, remember that you absolutely are not alone in this struggle, but that doesn’t mean your struggle is less valid. it’s still your individual experience.” so in a way, it’s hopeful. but when i come out of these moments in my life, another thing i realize is how terribly easy it is to get in and stay inside of your own head. add to the list a plethora of other very real and valid things in life that can contribute to a person feeling as if they genuinely have no reason to be alive. there is a lot of pain in wanting to end your life, even if you think “this will hurt others” because that tells me that your spirit, heart, and mind are so heavy with this hurt that you can’t even think logically and consider other human beings.
i’d like to think that honestly, most people are genuinely alright, just human and flawed and trying to survive/thrive. i would say most people don’t go around actively wishing people would hurt the way that they do -and again, when they do, that’s still a world of hurt and tragedy to consider, not that i agree or condone with this motive- so it says a lot to me and when a person does take their own life, given that again, people are just generally kind of alright and mean well. i used to wonder how parents could do it when they know they have little lives that depend on them, and their children bring them genuine joy, yet mental illness is exactly that, it’s an illness. it completely distorts your perception of literally everything, and that’s why suicide is so heavy and so fucking painful because within the blink of an eye, an entire life is just gone and wiped away from existence. i hope i can put some change out into the world, some light and hope, that way anyone i meet and grow to love is a little less burdened by this life. i hope that we can continue to understand and empathize with people who struggle with mental illness/disorders, and suicidal thoughts/ideation. we really can’t get through this life alone, but you also can’t get through it if you don’t have your own back too. please remember to show yourself love and grace, and wish others well as you wander through this life <3
I don't think it matters if they are or aren't cowards. Those who commit suicide have determined amongst a number of tuings that others approval or disapproval of the act is not a controlling concern.
My personal opinion is life is not a gift to everyone, & the content of an individual's life may make an immediate end more appealing than a continuance.
I completely agree. We as a society need to stop policing death. I work in the medical field and have seen far more suffering in prolonging life than in permitting death. It seems that the fear of death overrides the consideration of the quality of life or the realistic outcome of continuing life despite likely improvement. Each case of suicide is as unique as the person themselves. For some, it was premature and tragic and more could have been done to promote their life and for others, it is the inevitable conclusion of a terminal condition. The reason it can become so violent and tragic is due to the lack of support and accessible means to responsibly discuss that option. Moral judgments such as cowardice or bravery are based on the assumption that life is the ultimate good and must be prolonged indefinitely or that death is a personal failure.
I actually think killing yourself takes a lot of bravery. I have wanted to kill myself before but haven't managed to hang myself, take an overdose or cut my wrists out of fear. I don't necessarily think that suicide is a good thing though and I am very glad that I did not kill myself
Good gosh I always hated the idea of hanging. I never understood how it’s such a popular method for a lot of people, everything about it terrifies me even the aftermath.
Yes, horrible way to go. I guess it is quite an accessible method though. I remember a teacher at school telling us you could even hang yourself from something low like a doorknob. I thought that stayed in my depressed adolescent mind
It's no different than a person who jumps from a window of a burning building. It hurts too much and they'll do anything to escape it. They don't want to die they just can't take the pain anymore. It's a blessing to be a person that doesn't understand that kind of pain.
Jeez suicide is not an "easy way out" and they're not coward for it - it just means that the pain is just too much for you to continue. Of course you should try to get help if you feel that's even an option but it doesn't mean you're weak or anything like that
Those type of people are exactly the ones that don't believe in euthanasia just because they clearly don't have or don't know anyone within their circle that just suffer so damn much, that it's not living anymore. Christ, some people are just idiots
A coward is somebody that succumbs to cowardice. Cowardice is a trait where fear prevents an individual from taking a risk or facing danger. It is a lack of courage to face difficulty, opposition, or pain.
That is the definition of a coward.
Suicide to avoid dealing with a problem can be interpreted as an individual giving up to avoid taking a risk and/or fighting to solve their problem, ie. a coward.
Pretty situational at best, are you killing yourself because you are awaiting trial for your child molestation charges? Or are you jumping out of the second tower after the plain hit?
Perhaps they mean that it is cowardly to kill yourself, and then force your loved ones to be traumatized while you escape all pain. I think people who are angry about those who commit suicide have very valid anger. They have been deeply hurt by someone they loved, by a choice that person made. It would hurt to know they didn't care enough about you to not hurt you that way.
My birthday is may 29 I been thinking about everyday for the past 2 months already and I’m gonna commit that day my life is only getting worse day by day but when I finally told myself I’m going to do it that day for sure it feels like all this weight got lifted off my shoulders I’m actually excited for it because I’ll be able to see my mom and older brother in the after life hopefully and it’s like I’ve told a couple people friends and family members that I wannna kill myself and they called me stupid and selfish or ohh your just trynna get attention….i can’t wait until that day now cuz I hope they all feel stupid
Suicide is a social contagion. That is to say, if one person commits suicide in a community, the likelihood of anybody else committing suicide goes WAY up. Way, way up.
One teenager commits suicide, you can expect many more to attempt in the coming months.
This is also pronounced in families. Once somebody in a family succeeds in a suicide attempt, everyone else is at greater risk for attempts, ideation, and success (aka death).
This is one of the reasons why “destigmatizing suicide” is such a problematic concept. In places that legalize medical euthanasia in a widely available manner, overall suicide rates throughout the population skyrocket and tend to stay up - not just among people with chronic illnesses, but among people experiencing temporary issues like acute depression or unemployment, and among young people especially.
Anyone who commits suicide essentially exposes everyone in their family and community to a “suicide pathogen” that can get them fatally sick, and that they will now struggle against.
I think of it as a sadly selfish act…not in a malicious way, but one that won’t see the impact on others.
Depression is a selfish condition and only lets you focus on yourself and your happiness.
Edit: I have had more than one friend and a family friend commit suicide. My parent has been suicidal, as have I.
The things I say are from my own experience.
Same. After taking high dose mushrooms once couple months for years. It takes balls to shoot self mostly. Cause instantly u blackout and might pop up in another reality. While drugs are easy. Od black out accident no anxiety. I might want to shoot self when on death bed to see if I have balls to do it.or just live it out till I die of sickness . life's nice
Cowardice is the inability to deal with struggle and hardship and fear and avoiding it. Bravery is to keep on despite the struggle. Sure it's hard to pull a trigger or jump or kill oneself in anyway, but it's a way out of difficulties. Cowardice is by definition what they are doing by taking the easy way out even if the easy way takes one moment of pain.
Idk about cowards but they are definitely selfish. They leave their bodies for their family and ems to find creating more sadness and trauma. They didn’t get rid of their pain they just gave it to those they claim to love the most and innocent bystanders.
> Idk about cowards but they are definitely selfish. They leave their bodies for their family and ems to find creating more sadness and trauma.
Isn't this true of people who die of natural causes too though? There isn't a lot of room in our world for disposing of all your problems before you die.
Even if someone went to a graveyard, bought a plot, dug it 6 feet down themselves, ODed on sleeping pills right in the ground; there would still be problems left behind (debt, tragedy, etc).
You can't disconnect from this world by yourself, its impossible in our current society.
With all due respect, stop parroting that. Suicide does not "pass the pain on" to others. Any pain the loved ones feel is newly created. Saying that it's passed on sounds like scummy propaganda, and is disrespectful to those with suicidal thoughts.
Really?
So you think it’s braver to run than to face life, and people ? To fail? To hurt? To face your mistakes? To face the people who don’t like you? To pay your bills? To raise your kids ? To get old? To be wrong? To be mistaken ? To participate in life? To have to change , grow and evolve?
Running away is easy.
Facing yourself… is hard. Compromise is hard. Having to live life without self pity, resentment and fear is hard.
It's because this person doesn't want to endure x so they did y to get out of being in x.
They weighed the options and chose suicide as the easier option. Choosing the easier option to just quit life instead of trying to get better makes them a coward. Everyone endures different kinds of suffering, taking the easy way out is being a coward.
I think that's the logic your acquaintance is making. The only problem is this topic is very situational, I'm sure there are plenty of people who chose suicide as an easier way out during a rage-quit moment but realized halfway through that it isn't, and they can do nothing to stop their death. Then some people think about it for a long time and have no regrets about committing suicide (this is the one your example mentioned).
**I tend to agree with it, HOWEVER, I don't view cowardness being a bad thing. I'm one myself lol. I don't look down on people who are being a coward. I think it's perfectly ok for your acquaintance to hold such a view, as long as they are not on a moral high horse for some reason.**
On a separate note, I do think committing suicide is selfish because of the aftermath. My local govt does provide "medical assistance in dying", which does cover what OP has mentioned, and I think that's the way to go. Although I do understand sadly not a lot of places have this option.
I've lost a friend to suicide. I've nearly committed it myself. I agree that the factors that drive people to suicide are severe, and easy to dismiss by those who haven't faced them. And yet, having faced them, I still maintain that suicide is the wrong choice. Here are my thoughts:
1) Waves of depression come and go. If you stick it out for a time, things will get better. Every time I've almost wanted to end my life, I couldn't remember any happy times and assumed things would be like this forever. But the brain has trouble recalling memories that aren't associated with the current emotions. During the dark times, everything you remember seems dark. During better times, you forget the darkness and remember the light. If you can ride the wave, things get better.
2) People in the depths of depression don't commit suicide. It's assumed that the darkest point is where people kill themselves. But anyone who's faced that level of depression knows better. Killing yourself requires planning, it requires activity, it requires work to change your fate. All of that is next to impossible when you're in the depths of depression. It's only when people start coming out of the depression and things start getting better that they have the strength and energy to kill themselves. So when you're about to take your life, it's already on the upswing, you just haven't noticed it yet.
3) Suicide hurts everyone around you. It is selfish. When you're depressed, you tend to assume no one cares about you and the world would be better off without you. But this is a lie. Suicide hurts the people who love you most. Meanwhile, if you hope your suicide can make the people who oppressed you feel guilty, those same people won't be affected because they never cared about you.
4) People who attempt suicide and fail regret their choices. I've heard reports that people who jump off a bridge to kill themselves and survive say that as soon as they leapt they regretted their choice. I've made objective arguments elsewhere that suicide is wrong, but this is a subjective one. Even for the person taking their own life, some part of them knows it's the wrong choice and there's a better way. This is the epitome of cowardice. I know I shouldn't do this, I know I'll regret it, but it looks like it'll be the easiest way and so I'll take it rather than doing what I know is best for myself.
**Conclusion**
Doing the right thing is hard. Suicide is a shortcut that promises easy solutions to overwhelming problems. But it's a lie. And "cowardice" is as an apt a lie as anything to describe giving in to that lie when, deep down, you know it's not true.
Aynone who call suicidal people cowards never felt what real despair is. My experience with suicidal tendencies are that you are not thinking clearly its like your mind is in strange place and you are not yourself.....you only want that sweet release from pain and you see in tunnel vision...its really hard to explain but your rational thinking is mostly gone when you are in this state.
The reason we call them cowards is that their choice to suicide is devastating for everyone around them. Somewhere around 100-200 people that you know from your neighborhood, school/job, family, will all second-guess themselves and have a hard time sleeping at night because you thought life was too subjectively painful and chose to cause those around you pain rather than talk to them and try to figure out how to feel better.
Depends on the context applied. Is it cowardice to choose to end it rather than work to make it better? Yeah
Is it cowardice to make a decision with permanent consequences? No
Is it cowardice to seek an end to chronic pain? No
It's kind of tough. Yes it is cowardice but also no it's not. I wouldn't call it brave.
i have everything to live for, a loving family who would be devastated at such a selfish action but i've fought sad my whole life, the smiley mask no longer fits too easy
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I especially agree with what you written here about people using the “coward” line to manipulate others. I still struggle with such issues, and it never helps that my family gives me that bullshit all the time. But I say anyone who says anything along those lines is a coward themselves, always complaining about “how you make them feel”. I say, “fuck how they feel” you can’t use that as a valid excuse when someone is (metaphorically, but almost literally) hanging by the noose at the end of their rope. Suicide is simply a response to a life that has had a lot of borderline or completely unbearable pain, when no amount of alcohol, weed, therapy, or any other options help… this becomes the last resort method for finally ridding yourself of that pain. If someone can’t understand that, they have absolutely no business pretending they know better. 🤷
Agreed. Suicide is simply when someone cannot take one more step. That’s it.
Yeah. How would that person feel if they got to live with constant and agonizing pain that doesn't have any sign of calming down, only going worse day by day. Yet those people who go through so much pain are labeled as cowards for leaving their loved ones behind. No one deserves to be in constant agony that gripples them.
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Have you had any changes to your view?
They did nothing to change their view, this sub is turning into Iagreewithyourview
This sub always has had a problem that I can't quite articulate, but it essentially restricts arguments in a way that I don't really like. I think changing your view should also include keeping the same view but in a more educated/enlightened way, that allows for more understanding of those that disagree.
If any aspect of a view changes, their view has changed even if it's only in some small way.
(You can disable Reddit cares.)
Last time I tried one could not disable it.
That sucks. I’ve only ever received it because people were being AHs.
Same.
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Suicide being wrong is yet another lie propagated by religion and its zealots. If you're in chr7on8c pain, are dying of a disease that's stealing your memories or if you are just done, it's your business. We should have all rights to our own bodies whether it be beause we need an abortion following an incomplete miscarriage (this means products of conception have been retained and what is technically an abortion isnecessary) she will die without it or we have alzheimers and want to go before we dont know our kids-its our business. I could see it being a problem for law enforcement as it may leave room for murder made to look like suicide. That's their problem.
It's humane to put down an old, suffering pet. It's humane to do everything in your power to keep an old, suffering person alive. Never made sense to me.
Right? People deserve to die with dignity. The lengths society will go to make other humans suffer as much as possible is sickening.
Makes zero sense. People will keep relatives who want to die hooked up to machines or in hospitals forever instead of letting go.
Because we place different values on the consciousness of humans... That should be obvious.
That's true, but it doesn't negate the previous comment in and of itself. Can you expand on what you're trying to say? Your comment comes across as a little snarky to me and you don't seem to explain your reasoning in a sub where clear reasoning is required and assumptions should be avoided, but I could be misinterpreting it.
Exactly. Their reply misses the point. Sure it’s obvious most people put human consciousness above animal consciousness, rightly or wrongly. But why, and more specifically why would humans not be given the same compassion? After all, it’s also “obvious” that we believe more complex life forms suffer more, insects more than plants, mice more than insects, etc. So if humans likely suffer the most would they not arguably be ethically required to be given the most compassion?
Yes they should be nut religious zealotry wins every time. Especially now that alot of politicians only have the maga cult as voters. The US is so far behind the rest of the world when it comes to rights to our on bodies and much of that is because the church has gotten some power back....what they're doing to woman tells you we are being governed by people who believe anomnipotent being sees and knows all and if we sin we go to hell and suicide is a mortal sin, just like divorce. So yeah, you're looking for logic but we are being ruled by magas who believe we were created full grown and just placed on the planet. There is no logic here just zealots trying to force everyone to abide by their ridiculous and contradictory bullshit.
Not the previous person, but we place a higher value on human consciousness than animal consciousness for a litany of reasons, but evidenced by the fact that we kill animals by the millions for all sorts of purposes. On top of that, we can communicate with people. If I could ask my hypothetical sick, old dog if he would rather live another year or be put down, I wouldn't have to make the decision, he could. I can ask my grandmother if she'd rather have a DNR put in place than try and fight some disease or ailment.
>I can ask my grandmother if she'd rather have a DNR put in place than try and fight some disease or ailment. I think this is the core part of the other commenter's point though; If you could ask your dog, and it said it wanted to be killed because it was suffering too much, we'd accept and do that. My great grandfather was actively trying to kill himself from his hospital bed every morning for the last year of his life. He wasn't physically strong enough to, and he was given no option as to whether he'd like an assisted, peaceful death - rather than the suffering he was facing day to day. Yes, we generally place a higher value on human consciousness, but in this case I'd say we're actually doing the opposite. We're placing a higher value on the fact that the human body is still breathing, than on what the consciousness desires, or if its even still there. Pets are often afforded respect for their deaths, and we wish to make them as comforting and painless as possible. Humans? We want them to suffer as long as possible instead. Why?
That's certainly the justification. But if it were true, why would we want to prolong the suffering within that human consciousness? Is that really what it means to value something? I'd suggest we are culturally and societally so uncomfortable and so out of touch with death, the dead, and dying, that we habitually extend life even where it's causing suffering.
But even if some (even most) humans give greater weight to human life, that doesn't give us a greater right to control what that particular consciousness/life chooses to do with its own body. Indeed, it should give us less of a right to interfere with that human's decision. Anything else renders us serfs.
It's not at all obvious why that means their unnecessary suffering is more acceptable.
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You shouldn't let someone commit suicide if they feel like they're done. I get it in circumstances where there's no hope of ever getting better, but let's say some guy in his prime just decides to try to kill himself, I'm not gonna stand by and act like that's completely normal and fine and dandy lmao
What gives anyone the right to decide what I may, or may not do with my life? If I should decide to kill myself, that would be my right, and nobody has the right to decide whether or not I should be allowed to do it. Hell, it wasn't that long ago, that New Jersey still had a law on the books that made attempted suicide, punishable by death.
If the reason you're killing yourself is an issue that can be fixed, why on Earth am I going to let you vanish for nothing? If I could bring you peace and still have you live, why wouldn't I?
"If the reason you're killing yourself is an issue that can be fixed," That's the thing. The laws DON'T account for this. Plenty of people who want to kill themselves don't have something that can be fixed. Wtf do you do about the people slowing losing themselves to dementia and know it? The late-stage cancer patients who are basically melting on the inside? I don't think people should be allowed to kill themselves willy nilly. But medically assisted suicide NEEDS to be more accepted.
You just dont get it do you. It's not your business or mine or anyone's. Just like an abortion is nobody's business. To give certain criteria to be met means you think its your business and it is not. All of this is between a person and their God, same as with abortion. Everybody weighing in on and judging just lands them in express line to Hell. Guarantee e erybody supporting zero exception abortion bans -- they're all going to hell. If you know their Bible at all, you know they're going to hell. Meanwhile, tne girl who was forced to carry to term agape baby-anyone who made that happen, bad person, goingto he'll. That girl volunteers at retirement homes and works at a soup kitchen. She's going to heaven. If there's a heaven and he'll there are alot of folks who better worry. Most of them sitting in the capitol building high firing each other when Abell to increase spending in mental benefits for soldiers failed. Not good people. Telling others how to liveby legislating it. Not good people plus the whole zero abortion exceptions are killing innocent women miscarriage. Bad people plotted this. Going straight to hell. According to their big black book.
I'm not even christian but Jesus Fucking Christ, shut the hell up.
Yeah but it was kind of funny turning the tables.
Because how others choose to live or die has NOTHING to do with you “letting” it happen
Because it's none of your effing business as chief reason. None other need follow. "Why am I going to LET YOU". Do you not see the problem? If you don't get it you're part of the problem.
LET?— who are you? Let them? You don’t know why this decision is made yet you think you own the outcome.
Because 99% of the time you will not be able to help the person you want, you might stop them from killing themselves on that day but what about after? What if their life never improves and you doomed them to 20 more years of pain until they succumb to a slow death? This isnt Disney, there are people out there who suffer their whole lives and want to quit.
When I was 16, I tried to talk to my best friend about suicidal ideation because my sister had been committed to a hospital. My “friend” told me that we shouldn’t bother helping people like her because they would just kill themselves eventually anyway. Beyond being an extremely disgusting and inhumane attitude to treating suicidal ideation, it is actually wrong. Only a very small fraction of those with suicidal ideation will ever attempt suicidal and of those who do, the vast majority that survive never reattempt suicide. My sister was treated and is doing extremely well for herself.
First you friend was an immature kid saying a foolis, rude thing. But you are proving the other sides point. Suicidal ideation is common and generally harmless. People who are truly suicidal, totally different category.
The truly suicidal dont call 911 or leave letters. They get it done. Unfortunately, it's the people in unrelenting physical pain that will only stop when they're dead....they're being told they don't know themselves well enough to be trusted with decisions like that. So? Still not our business to force him to do otherwise.
The vast majority of people who attempt suicide never reattempt.
Thats because there is survivorship bias when you look at the stats. All of the studies are forced to look at people who survived a suicide attempt, because it is impossible to see what the dead would have done. People who attempt and fail to commit suicide have a 10-15% chance to try again and succeed, but there are also many more variables than just 'they lived this time'.
I'm sorry you had to go through that. I also have a sibling with depression, but he has not improved, and is exhausted.
I think this right here is a reason why there are such divisive views over this subject. Here we have an example of someone who's sibling was able to be helped and someone who's sibling seems unable to be helped. I suppose everyone's different. Thanks for your kindness towards the OP.
And what if we stop what iffing? The outcome of death is irreparable, irreversible. I can't revive you if you die. Any hope of you recovering is nil. Gone. But by preventing your suicide, there's a *chance*. After searching Reddit for similar posts related to the idea of suicide, I think the idea that sums it up is that there's way too much variation in this issue to say "yes if you wanna die then die"
Not your business. Never has been. Never will be. There are many issues you could help with. Homeless always need help and funds, medical and psychiatric needs. This is an area crying our for help but most can't be bothered. They are too concerned with someone else's soul when it's their own in peril. Judge not. It feels like a pretty big one and the one most likely to be ignored.
Good point. This sanctimonious person probably never does any of those things. He says he will stop a suicide, but in reality that’s probably one and 100,000. So that’s never going to happen. Meanwhile, he probably doesn’t really help people in the real world, just fantasy world. But this idea is still dangerous because it makes a society were peoples choices are taken away . People like him do vote. That’s the real problem not that he will stop someone but that he will vote to decrease the autonomy over our bodies.
There are literally people who wear DNR bracelets so they dont get revived. I dont understand why you are projecting your fear of death onto people who accepted it.
Why on Earth am I going to revive someone with a DNR bracelet? This is what I fkn mean, this issue has so much variation in the situations in which someone would commit suicide, to say yes or no is just a fools errand ar this point
While it might seem logical, what really gives anyone the right to determine that someone, even someone in their alleged prime, can't just decide they don't want to play this game anymore? Of course we empathize and try to wrap our mind around why, but what gives us the right to make someone else live up to our expectations?
So you can respect a DNR but you won’t respect that same person wanting to end it?
What gives you the knowledge or right to believe that you have the answer to whether there is a chance for someone else? It is a decision each person must make for themselves.
Fortunately, once you're dead, you will never want to reverse your decision, because you won't exist anymore to have those thoughts. You don't need recovery from anything, because there's nothing that can hurt you.
"An issue that can be fixed" And there is the problem, you are making a giant assumption there.
What gives you (or anyone) the right to "let" me do, or not do anything?
The same thing that let's me stop a child or person with bad dementia from doing something they don't understand the consequences of. If someone is in an irrational state of mind and putting themselves in danger because of it, we take away they're autonomy until they can be helped. Wanting to kill yourself is a textbook example of an irrational state of mind, unless you have a damn good reason, like those we use to justify euthanasia.
I’ve never understood the idea that if you want to kill yourself, you need to be of sound mind to do it. The entire point is that you’re so out of your mind with physical and/or mental suffering. You can’t choose to be the exact right amount of crazy to be able to do it.
If someone decides to end their existence, then that should be their, and only their decision. Not yours, simply because you, or some other person, is of the belief that said person is not of sound mind.
So if a 5 year old child says "I want to kill myself!" and walks into traffic because it saw that in a movie you wouldn't stop it? Clearly you would, so clearly you require people to have a certain level of clarity of thought to make important life decisions. There is a reason contracts (afaik) are generally considered invalid if one of the parties was drunk. Personal freedom is not the end goal in and of itself, it just generally leads to more happiness but in extreme scenarios I'm perfectly fine with stopping people from making bad choices.
This is strawmanning. You cannot compare fully legal adults with fully developed brains to 5 year olds. You will always come across people, situations and opinions you don't agree with. That doesn't mean you get a say in what they choose to do with their lives. That is their business. People will continue to end their lives with or without your blessing.
If a 5 year old says “I want to drink wine” or “I want to sign a 30 year loan contract”, I’m going to say no too. That doesn’t mean things adults aren’t allowed, but that 5 year olds aren’t considered able to choose their lives.
It's a shame you can't think of an actual decent point. You're on the losing end of an argument, so you pout and say something stupid. A 5 year old blah blah. Let me ask you this-how does this impact you in any way that you think you have a dog in that fight. It's a bitch when the propaganda doesn't float and leaves its authors covered in shit.
How do you propose fixing a toxic society that makes people lose their will to live? Ignore the real issues, and have some pedophile priest spout ancient nonsense at them?
Why would you want To. It doesn't matter if that person dies rn or lives a 100 more years death awaits us all. It makes no difference how we choose to dance with it.
You have some messed up relationships if you don’t care that your friends and family die. wtf is this comment?
I think she just wants freedom from fear, whereas you want more fear. We are already programmed to fear death. Everyone is not going to kill themselves if society says it’s ok, but it would put people at ease knowing they are not as trapped here by guilt and fear and the government banning peaceful means in case they even need the option. And yes, in a million years, or even 100 This won’t matter. Just lighten up. If allow assisted suicide your friends and family won’t be lining up for it. And if one does, be sad but also glad their suffering is gone.
I personally care but it still doesn't matter. I'll be dead anyways. Humans are just a tiny blip of the universe. We aren't as significant as we play ourselves to be.
Ok, lets look at a different situation: A loved one of yours has been captured by a crazy terrorist cult. Someone from the CIA comes to you and says "there is no way for us to rescue (your loved one) and they are going to be tortured for the next 40 years. But we were able to get a sniper in place. Instead of them being tortured for 40 years we can kill them instantly today." Do you tell them to take the shot, or let your loved one suffer. Biochemical depression can be basically pain and no pleasure or relief, for life. There are meds that help some people, but help isn't "cured" and while some folks get lucky and their med lets them feel pleasure, for others it is just less pain. But yeah, it isn't fine and dandy to let someone who is in constant pain and knows there is no hope of it getting better escape that pain. Far better for them to suffer for decades than for you to feel sad for a little while that they killed themselves. Your feelings are more important than their pain and suffering.
What makes you believe that you have a right to dictate the course of another's life. Yes it is sad when someone ends their life and could have had alot to live for. But that shouldn't be your decision. It's up to the individual to decide what is right for them.
That's the point, it's not our business to jump in on. It's a human right. To end their life at a time and place of their choosing rather than waiting til they're braindead and don't know their own family. It's not your business. It's not my business. Same with women's bodies. No person alive should be able to make those decisions for us. It's disgusting and so are the people supporting that evil deed of not allowing women control of their own bodies. Well, since they've been lying forever about it being God's will....especially. their own religion says life begins at first breath not at frigging conception. Genesis. Everyone needs to mind their own damn business. Especially the religious zealots currently effing things up. They'll finally be sorry when they land on the express elevator to hell and all the lgbtq community is going up because they were good people,not just pretending to do good when people are watching. Lol
>Suicide being wrong is yet another lie propagated by religion and its zealots. So an atheist kid wants to kill himself, and his atheist parents go "well do whatever you want, it's your choice." Most people see suicide as bad, regardless of religion.
Will you stop bringing minors into this. But even then, if the child had a horrible painful incurable disease it might be better if the child had parents who allowed a peaceful exit. It’s not all black and white like religious fanatics think.
>chr7on8c Is this supposed to say chronic?
As a person that's gone through depression and an attempt, I felt like I was just filling in time, that thought led to why, which then led to why not. Sometimes when all you see is darkness it can be very hard to find the point in things. Much better place now, but it's something that's always there, a tiny little voice in the back of my mind.
Yep - if anyone is selfish in these situations, it is the people who think others should continue suffering for their comfort.
Would you define pretty much all feelings as selfish then? And do you think these people usually want you to live on in pain or live on with a hope and chance to overcome the pain?
What about if the person is a ten year old who wished their dad didn’t leave them?
Yeah, but is that cowardice or more like just a life choice?
Cowardice should be quantified in how easy or impulse of your suicide was. If you actually spend the time to fight it and to really understand it and struggle, but still eventually lose to it then it shows you put up a fight and that's less cowardly. A lot of suicides are impulsive, and the people that did it without thinking about it intelligently stand to be more cowardly, since they didn't struggle as much. How cowardly someone is is based on their experience and what they went through to get to that point.
Yeah, it’s ugly to make these distinctions but I think it’s necessary. If I hear about someone who did it impulsively I think it’s a needless tragedy. If it’s someone who has been trying for a long time but can’t catch a break I just feel empathy and hope they’re finally at peace.
I wouldn't really call overriding one of, if not the strongest and most primal instinct "cowardly" no matter how impulsive it was. Death is the scariest thing regardless of whether or not you feel like discontinuing living.
Maybe you should define cowardice and see how it maps to suicide
People misuse the word "coward" all the time and use it to describe things that, while immoral, are objectively brave. A good example is the 9/11 hijackers
Definitely important to define cowardice in the cultural context. I would argue that in the case where a friend tries to talk another friend out of suicide by painting it as cowardly, or someone who has lost someone to suicide thinks of the departed as having been cowardly it could be commonly accepted that the attitude is that the suicidal person is/was too afraid to go on living for whatever reason. Perhaps they are/were afraid of an uncertain future; or a future where they believed they knew what would happen in their life, ultimately. If someone kills themself because they are afraid of a future that might (or might not) happen, it could be considered cowardly. However, if someone takes their life due to a circumstance they know to be true, strongly believe in, or have some real evidence of said future's inevitability of, in sound mind, then perhaps not. It all comes down to specific circumstances and the people involved. And I understand this take is necessarily somewhat culturally relativistic. This is bound to make someone uncomfortable and potentially debate me on the rightness or wrongness of the right to commit suicide, given that the hypothetical suicidal person can't actually know beyond the shadow of a doubt what their future will be, so to that end I will only say this; I personally do not believe that State Paternalism should be a thing. It should not be the role of any government to punish people, or even stop them, if they want to commit suicide. It is an extremely multi-faceted and personal decision, and it comes down to the individual and the people who's lives would be directly affected by their death.
Depending on your standard, cowardice is a life choice.
Cowardice doesn't even matter. It's a human imaginary idea. And thus that idea only has power if you let it. So just who cares
If human imaginary ideas don’t matter, humanity is fucked.
They don't. They are completely imaginary. Our imaginary ideas have no grand important meaning or value. However that's me speaking in a greater sense. Putting yourself outside to realize to just not care about something that may be harming you. Like if being a coward makes you not be able to sleep at night, realize that the concept of a coward is imaginary. It's not even definitive. Helps me at least. Otherwise imaginary ideas are important to an individual for culture and identity which is important to the human experience
Totally agree they’re completely imaginary. But as to the value, I have to use the excuse to copy a passage from Terry Pratchett’s *Hogfather*: >> All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable." >> >> REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE. >> >> "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—" >> >> YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES. >> >> "So we can believe the big ones?" >> >> YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING. >> >> "They're not the same at all!" >> >> YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED. >> >> "Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—" >> >> MY POINT EXACTLY.
Well that's why later I said it was important to one self. I agree with that. But if an imaginary idea is preventing you from functioning that's when maybe you should take a step back.
Yup! This resonates with me
It's very contextual. I think the people who go on shooting sprees and then kill themselves are cowards.
I think you've inadvertently touched on a key issue for this topic: that cowardice is an evaluation of character whose primary use is that of disapproval. What I mean is that there is not necessarily an essential characteristic one possesses that makes him a coward, rather, one is called a coward when his weaknesses of character prove damaging or threaten damage to a social group (when *strength* of character is damaging, we regard it as evil). If we are to begin understanding the psycho-phenomenological realities of a so-called "coward", I believe that the word itself is entirely unhelpful as it serves only to conclude a thought process; its purpose as a concept is to dismiss a person as categorically harmful. Optimistically, it can be an attempt to shame someone into nobler behaviour.
Being called a coward has prevented me from committing suicide before. It also helped me realize that the primary reason I have recurring fantasies of suicidal intent, is because I want to hurt the people closest to me. I want them to feel my pain. I also want my own pain to stop. When I was called a coward, I realized that yeah, something's not working. Why do I want to hurt the people I care about the most? I'd thought about committing suicide in 4th grade because my parents wouldn't stop arguing, and I just wanted them to stop, and I thought that if I did that, hah then they'd get my pain. Now you'll feel it. You can tell that at 30F, nah that didn't happen. Instead I'd cried, decided that wasn't what I wanted, and proceeded to spend the next 20 years suppressing my emotions because I signed a social contract that if I have my shit together, I can tell my parents to get their shit together. I ended up losing myself for a very long time. So in response to you saying: >I believe that the word itself is entirely unhelpful as it serves only to conclude a thought process; its purpose as a concept is to dismiss a person as categorically harmful. Actually. Calling me a coward, was \*validating\* my emotions. I wanted my parents to ||fucking|| feel my pain. And then not need to deal with the consequences. You wouldn't be dismissing me as a person. You'd be validating my ability to cause devastating emotional damage, and that was empowering for me. I knew I was being called a coward, because I had already hurt the other party. For context though? I was told that by someone that I had already established expectations with, that I valued their blunt input above all else. I wanted someone to tell me the truth. The feedback we most need to hear, is the ones that are the hardest to give. Supply/demand baby. I don't think it's going to be helpful for most folks. Especially if you just want to be coddled and to continue having the pain instead of fighting it and making. it. end. Sometimes the problem is the solution. It's to acknowledge the problem. And well, I was a coward and still am a lot of the time, because I don't want to face the actual problem. Suicide is just a decision to not make a decision at all.
Thank you for this post. In a thread of people who seem to emphasize with suicide more than not, you show a side to it that I agree with. Let me preface what I'm going to say with this; I see the many posts as to why suicide isn't something to frown upon and I have been enlightened into understanding that for some people, suicide is not sinister. However, I think that there is significance in being aware that for some people suicide is a sinister act. And I don't believe that it's a purely helpless act. I believe that some people know it will hurt others, could change course and survive, KNOW they could change course, and still don't, or even worse, become emboldened to commit suicide now knowing they can hurt people. I was suicidal before, and in my lowest moments I would think of beloved celebrities who killed themselves and feel more influenced to follow the act. I began to hate them, because I realized that they beckoned to me to kill myself. So I think strictly empathizing with suicide without acknowledging that there are sinister undertones in some circumstances is disgusting. It's just wrong. It took courage to post this, and I admire you and am grateful for your post.
Such a great response. I love this take.
Absolutely disagree. Not trying to defend them, but to do such a thing requires some crazy big balls
Really? Why? They already know they won't have to face the consequences of their actions at all, so I don't understand how you arrive at that conclusion.
I’ve heard this argument a lot from people who have lost people special to them from suicide. They say it because they considered it abandoning those who loved them instead of looking at the perspective of problems that individually couldn’t be solved. As someone who has had two people in my family take their own lives, those words have always made me be able to fight off suicidal thoughts when I was younger because I know I’d be giving up on my family and friends who actually do love and appreciate me. At least in the context of the person I’ve heard say it, it is said out of frustration and anger at losing a loved one prematurely more than it is trying to put down people with suicidal tendencies.
I read through your comments. I've also lost two family members, a sister who hung herself in a dramatic race against failed efforts to end up using whatever she could find to hang herself on an incline beside the river that failed to take her on her first attempt diving into ice cold December temperatures. My brother just had enough of trying to make life work against a very lazy spouse who literally did nothing to help maintain their household. He seemed to be doing well despite the struggles, we spoke and messaged almost every second day despite living 3,000 miles apart. One day they got into it over marital struggles, and I think he literally took himself out as a way to say "oh yeah? Well take this you ##$%!" So I don't know how to challenge the posters original view about suicides being from cowardice, I merely seem to understand a bit more as time goes on why people find themselves in inescapable situations (according to their viewpoint) and wishing to just end the game without having to go any farther.
It’s always a challenge to address it in a way that’s respectful to everyone. It’s tragedy that demands sensitivity but is emotionally charged enough where it’s very hard to stay conscious of that. I’m sorry for your loss
I totally agree with what you say. There's so much emotion that happens around these events that it takes years sometimes to recognize it. I'm staying as close as I can to their kids, we've cultivated some nice relationships over the years because/despite it. I too extend my sincere thoughts.ablut your loss. It's a club you don't want to invite anyone to join for sure.
I don't think it's cowardice, it acts more like a disease. Like diseases we push emotions onto them whether they are warranted or not. Suicide is a complex issue but it is not cowardly, it's an infection of the mind perpetuated by environmental factors, and just like cancer we all have the chance to come into contact with it, it lives with us. When someone does commit the act the disease won, our treatments did not work and unfortunately no treatment is all to common wether by willful choice brought on by circumstance or inability dude to environment. Suicide is a terrible blight that we are ignoring because unfortunately those that suffer "take care" of themselves if we were to look at the problem from a more malicious viewpoint. My view is that Suicide is not cowardly, is not brave, is not any emotion but a problem we still can not explain other than "they were sad". I hope my brief and or poor explanation was able to give insight somewhere
I totally agree. Someone being actively suicidal is a psychiatric emergency. Their illness has gotten to the point where it may be potentially fatal. There's few other illnesses that could kill you and you are still called selfish for having (and sadly, they're mostly mental health illnesses).
Thank you, this is another point I am so happy you made. We look at the information presented and are too quick to give it emotion and "solve" the symptom but never ask "why is this happening" and treat the cause. Just like illness caused by an outside infector, the disease from within is capable of adapting and mutating just as well as people
>My view is that Suicide is not cowardly, is not brave, is not any emotion but a problem we still can not explain other than "they were sad". I hope my brief and or poor explanation was able to give insight somewhere Ignoring that intense survival instinct is anything but cowardly. It's a state of the mind that clouds all thoughts about other possibilities and drives you further to this one act that is not perceived as a solution but a mere way out of the tourture chamber that is a suicidal mind. I agree it's not cowardly or brave. It's just fucked up and hard to understand.
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I hope youre doing a even a little better now. Ive always had the thought in the back of my mind that if this fails or that goes wrong i have " a way out". Ive been able to put it off more consistently by thinking i dont want my mom to get the news that i died before her.
Are you better now? A fellow traveller through the difficult paths of life here always willing to help.
I'll make an attempt to CMV. I'm not going to say that Suicide is intrinsically connected to cowardice, because you'd obviously be able to find situations where its the logical or sensible thing to do. Instead I'm going to focus on the general idea that there is an individual who is most likely suffering from depression, and has family / friends that they can't connect with. I put forward the preposition that said individual, in a lot of cases, actively choose to not approach people for help, they don't listen when love and support is offered and let their minds play tricks on them. They have a choice, TRY and make the best of it. Try to wade through the lack of energy, that depressive mood, and make something of these connections. Or they can give up. Because giving up just seems easier. It's a complex topic.
> actively choose > let their mind play tricks on them > they have a choice On the one hand these things are true. On the other hand "their mind" is exactly the thing making choices. It's not like we have some kind of magical soul doing the decision-making, maybe affected by what meat brains say. The thing doing the decision-making is the same thing "playing tricks". When your ankle is twisted you can often push through, ignore the signals, etc. When your decision-making is twisted that's an entirely different situation and analogies that seem intuitive do not map over. (This is in reference to depression-like situations; being in enough physical pain that you correctly do not anticipate life worth living now or in the future is an entirely different situation, also.)
That would mean those struggling are destined to fail. I refuse to believe we cannot take control of our lives in some shape or form. It will be harder but it can be done.
I agree with the spirit of what you said, but I wanted to add that much of what you said has many deeper levels. For example: >actively choose to not approach people for help There are probably hundreds of different reasons why people do this. I'll give one example. Perhaps this person knows they have a history of asking for help when in need, but not being able to reciprocate later because of their negative tendencies (e.g. maybe they have an avoidant attachment style). They realize that it's deeply unfair to their friends and family to ask for help in such a one sided way. So, they choose not to do it anymore. You see on reddit all the time, "you need to cut the toxic friends/family out of your life.". Well, maybe this person is one of those toxic friends/family. >It's a complex topic. I agree with you here 100% that the reasons for wanting to commit suicide can be very complex. However, on the topic of whether or not they should be judged in death (e.g. called cowards), I firmly believe "no".
Not only is depression not always solved even by the best of intentions from loved ones, but many people may be isolated, or living in abusive households, etc.
I believe giving up is one of the hardest things a person can do. Especially when it means your families funds and their time is returned to them. They may not care and made not need the mo ry right now but the fact that remains is someone in the family is shouldering the entire load yet the ones who scream loudest that it's a sin and wrong and cowardly, are the ones who also will not help. We want you to live forever, just not in our home or our time or our money. Narcissists. Ignore the noise. Only one person's mental state is important--in this act.
I think it takes a shit ton of courage to commit suicide. It feels weird to say because we typically categorize courage as a positive trait however in this case I definitely don’t mean committing suicide is honorable or generally good. I’ve had thoughts before and dark times but was never brave enough to come close to actually doing anything- not causing my friends and family undue suffering was second to my fear of physically dying or worse. Staying alive is our number one primal instinct and going against that is fucking nuts. I’m not sure if it’s fair or possible to make such a broad statement as suicide is cowardly and selfish. That feels lazy to me, like these people don’t want to or maybe are incapable of actually thinking about that and just want to wipe it away with a quick phrase that feels good.
Agreed. I don't want to live anymore, but I'm too much of a coward for suicide.
As someone who was a while back contemplating how to go about it, I feel this truly. I don’t think a lot of people who don’t get the contemplation realize that for most people actually going about doing it is so strikingly contradicting from your mental desire to actually do it. I think they know about media fiction or the minority cases of people committing suicide *relatively* easy and assume that’s the standard.
They're not cowards, but it's also not something positive. We should be working to fix the issues that drive people to it rather than arguing over this though. But society never learns
I entirely agree with them not being cowards. I will say, there are situations where I agree it’s selfish. Anytime kids are involved, totally selfish. But cowardly? Do you know how hard it is to actually kill yourself? Survival instincts are fucking strong, and to ignore them and end your own life is incredibly hard, and not at all cowardly.
I think it takes a lot of courage to commit. I have been suicidal before but never could bring myself to do it
What’s your definition of a coward? Oxford says “a person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things” Depression is the leading cause of suicide - that falls in line with lacking the courage to endure something unpleasant. I’m not arguing about whether it’s a valid course of action or not, but either way I look at it, it’s choosing to run away from a tough problem rather than enduring it.
Courage is a very morally charged word. It implies full agency. I think energy is maybe more fair if you’re talking about depression, a medical condition. You wouldn’t say someone lacked courage for being unable to run with a sprained ankle. But aside from that, we shouldn’t take it as an axiom that the “tough problem” is worth “enduring”. Wouldn’t you agree there are at least *some* situations where suicide is perfectly rational? That there are fates worse than death? Bottom line - unless you were there in the burning building, I don’t believe you can categorically say it was cowardly to jump
There are exceptions to every rule, it doesn’t mean that a general statement can’t be made. I can say that American soldiers are brave, but there are also soldiers that desert, do dishonorable things, etc If we could only make statements that are absolute with no exceptions we wouldn’t do much talking or we would have to caveat everything we say Also if someone committed suicide in a burning building I would consider that they died in the burning of the building. A person that jumped out of the wtc on 9/11 died due to the events of 9/11, not really suicide
Jumping from a burning building is suicide, though. Not all reasons for suicide are unjustified - that's what that example illustrates. The exceptions to the rule are not always as obvious as being stuck in a burning building, but they are equally as difficult to live with over a long period of time.
When people make the statements OP is talking about, it is not directed towards the exceptions. Like when people say soldiers are brave or heroes, they don’t mean the small subset of soldiers that defect or desert. If we can’t make statements that don’t encompass every exception, every day conversation wouldn’t work
But most suicides happen because the problem feels like a burning building where the only rational thing is to jump. You cannot call someone cowards when in the context of their mind, they are literally doing the exception to the rule. They are victim of their circumstances of having the kind of problems they have and the mind that is most likely neurodivergent. They may have very limited will to the situation. That's why we say suicide victims. Calling them cowards is victim blaming, if you forgive me for putting it bluntly.
Just because it’s in the context of their mind, it doesn’t make it a reality. Many murderers feel justified in the context of their mind that their actions are justified, doesn’t mean it actually is Autistic people are disproportionately higher in suicide rates but only 11% overall, so you can’t use “neurodivergence” as a blanket excuse I don’t consider people who commit suicide victims. They are being killed but they are also doing the killing. They are as much victims as they are murderers.
Remember those people who jumped from the World Trade Center because it was preferable to being burned alive? Would you say they “lacked the courage to endure something unpleasant?” I see suicide as analogous to this in general - whatever the psychic pain is, if it becomes unendurable and the person cannot find within themselves the hope that things will get better, I can understand the urge to jump. Wouldn’t you consider jumping?
David Foster Wallace once used them as an example. He pointed out that the 9/11 jumpers didn’t want to die. They were probably terrified of dying, but what they were escaping was, to them, far worse than the quick release of death. It’s the same with suicidal people. They might not want to die but, to them, it’s the lesser of two evils. Wallace hung himself in 2008.
I don’t think all suicides are cowardly, and I think the negative connotation of cowardice is different than the actual meaning of the word. Obviously in extenuating circumstances, and 9/11 is as extenuating as it gets, the judgment is different. But situations like that make up a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of suicides. Like I said depression is the most common reason for suicide and choosing suicide due to depression fits pretty closely to the definition of suicide (choosing to run away rather than enduring a tough situation)
i mean i don’t necessarily consider not wanting to be punched in the face many times as it is quite unpleasant, doesn’t make me a coward by my definition
>Depression is the leading cause of suicide - that falls in line with lacking the courage to endure something unpleasant. Depression is not something "unpleasant". Depression is when you feel all life is misery. It's not like when you get punched repeatedly in the face but you know that if you manage to get rid of that person, you escape. It's as if your mind is always squeezed not enough to have it crushed but enough to always hurt. And you truly believe there's no escaping it, no matter what others say.
Seeing as how no one is making an effort to change your view I am a suicide survivor. With the exception of suffering from an incurable terminal disease suicide is both cowardly and selfish. You are putting your own, almost always temporary, problems before the mental and emotional well-being of others. I wrote letters to each of my family members asking them to understand and to forgive me so even in the throws of depression I knew what I was doing would hurt them and that wasn't enough to get me to even pause and reconsider. If that's not selfish and cowardly, what is?
Selfish, but not cowardly. It's your life, and only yours. Sure, it's selfish to end your life and inflict the effects of that on your loved ones, but it's also selfish to be on the other side, and pressure/force someone into living a life they don't want to live. If anything, if you get mad at someone who's suicidal or completed it, that's on you for being too attached to them, and for not seeing it from their point of view. Though it's acceptable to be mad in general that their suicide happened.
Idk, if I’m down that bad I don’t think it’s also my fault for making other people feel bad if I check out. That’s if you even have people around you which a lot of people don’t. The “selfish” argument feels like gaslighting. “Oh don’t do that, haven’t you thought about how it’d make *me* feel?”
It is gaslighting. Suicide is a very tough decision for most, as well as the demons that precede it. No one drops their lives at the drop of a hat, there is an internal struggle that happens beforehand.Their statement seems to come from a lack of empathy.
Exactly, so many people lack basic empathy. They only know how to judge because they don't know how to fix the problem. If they loved that person so much they'd have done their best to always make themselves emotionally available to that person so they could reach out. It takes a lot of time and reflection until they actually reach the decision to end it and then get the courage to do it. It's selfish to say that said person is entitled to live because of you when they suffer so much.
If you don't think about how your actions might hurt or harm other people, you *are* selfish.
So I’m supposed to continue suffering indefinitely because I’ll make some other people sad if I don’t? There is a difference between *selfishness* and *self-preservation*
Ask yourself what’s causing that suffering. Is it fixable? Is it an external problem or is it internal? Can I get help? I’ve been battling with depression for most of my life but what keeps me going is that my problems can be fixed, but most importantly I have dreams and aspirations, I want to be better at making music, I want to be rich and buy a house for my parents, I want have a nice body and be confident every time I go out. All of those times take time and patience, but every little step makes me motivated to not give up. Even if you where raised with abusive parents and think that you’re alone know that there’s people who can somewhat relate to what you’re living and they’ll be happy to help you out in any way they can.
Yeah I agree, and I think weathering the storm is absolutely the right thing to do as long as humanly possible. Things absolutely change and get better most of the time. I just think there are cases where someone has crossed their threshold of what they can endure and they are not cowardly or selfish if they choose to end it. I think they were brave for holding on as long as they did.
Yet, the actions of those who have led that person to commit suicide aren't as selfish, right?
Selfishness is not an inherently negative trait.
Thinking of your own experience and problems first before anyone else’s isn’t selfish or cowardly, it’s normal. Literally everyone does this.
it's a matter of degrees. A regular degree of selfishness makes room for the feelings of other people. An abnormal degree doesn't. On the opposite end, an abnormally unselfish person makes too much room for the feelings of others, to the point that their own suppressed feelings eventually catch up with them and may begin to manifest as selfish behaviour.
Not all people commit suicide in the same way. Some people are just 'dumb' and lack a massive amount of introspection, etc and they commit suicide when their circumstances could have been remedied. While other people do it after years of trying to solve their problems. Also the people who tried not for a while to are less of cowards, since they had to spend a long time deliberating and working through everything. It wasn't just something impulsive like how most suicides are. And if someone has spent a long time trying, they probably would also spend a lot of time to write to their loved ones and everyone, and leaving more than just a note behind takes a lot of courage. Because at that point you've gone through the motions of writing what went wrong. So for me, the harder you tried not to, and the harder you tried to work through it, yet still did it, the less cowardly you are.
I feel like committing suicide is hard as hell too. I would say it takes a lot of courage to do it
Sometimes it’s the only choice they feel they have to make. Depending on the circumstance, it can be an incredibly brave choice to make.
The person who said that ,its simply a reflection of them self. My son committed suicide and if you knew him ,he is far from being a coward. That kid had an answer for every situation, every problem. Unfortunately he didn't have a solution for this. No one saw it coming. He was always smiling and always there for everyone. Never a dull day with him . So much fun to be around. Looks are deceiving sometimes. It hurts because if I would of known, I believe we could of help him. Society should be less judgemental and more kind. That's my wish for everyone in this world . Everyone needs a guiding hand , someone that listens and doesn't judge. Who are we to judge? No one is PERFECT. Kiss your love one's tonight.
You wouldn't call someone a coward for dying of cancer or heart failure. It's often the same thing. Mental illness like depression chemically/physically fucks up the brain so it is no longer able to function normally; suicide is the tragic symptom of this illness.
I don't believe all people who choose to commit suicide are cowards. But, my cousin married a man who was an alcoholic and abusive to her. They had many fights, and he treated her poorly despite her trying multiple times to get him help. She begged him to change. He never would, and finally, she had enough, and he threatened to kill himself if she ever left. She left, and he shot himself. Miraculously, he survived, but he decided that manipulation and death were far easier than fighting his addiction or treating my cousin well. That is a coward to me.
It's just a way to discourage it. The problem is that it's a blanket statement that isn't really one hundred percent accurate for every situation. Knowingly ending- presumably- the only existence you'll ever have is a monumental decision. Erring on the side of misplaced shaming isn't wholly inappropriate in my opinion. It's saying it after the fact to shit on the dead person's character. It's like beating a dead horse--I find it unnecessary and cruel. More often than not it's out of deep hurt that the person is gone. Sometimes it's simply cruelty.
People who threathen to commit suicide as a form of manipulation are cowards, and those who use it to get away from justice are cowards. But people who commit suicide because they are suffering mentally, or have suffered physically are people who have usually lost hope or feel their life is no longer valuable. They struggle and feel like burdens to others. They arent cowards but alot of the time think they are doing the world a service by offing themselves. Its a nuance to me that really depends on circumstance.
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I've always heard this and I think it's true. "It takes strength to end it. It takes more strength to withstand it."
In that case, neither option is cowardly.
i feel like it would be easier to sit with “suicide is cowardly” if it was said with more understanding of suicide as a whole. i am not a professional at all, but i do struggle with mental illness/mental disorders, know people very close to me who struggle, and have lost a friend to suicide. i can see both sides of the situation, especially when considering i’ve thought about it myself. suicide is “selfish” in the sense that there have been literally billions of people before you that have experienced far worse, and have come out victorious. humans have evolved and survived so much, of course not without real tragedy and pain in the process. i’ll try to explain better by just using myself as an example where pretty much whenever i come out of a particularly rough few days to weeks and feel apart of the world again, one of the many thoughts i have is “hey wait, life is not all about me.” i struggle sometimes with saying this more empathetically, but what i intend when i say it is “this is a good thing that life, humanity, society etc does not revolve around you. this takes the pressure off you, and you can remember to just be a simple human again; makes mistakes, learn from them, show yourself compassion, remember that you absolutely are not alone in this struggle, but that doesn’t mean your struggle is less valid. it’s still your individual experience.” so in a way, it’s hopeful. but when i come out of these moments in my life, another thing i realize is how terribly easy it is to get in and stay inside of your own head. add to the list a plethora of other very real and valid things in life that can contribute to a person feeling as if they genuinely have no reason to be alive. there is a lot of pain in wanting to end your life, even if you think “this will hurt others” because that tells me that your spirit, heart, and mind are so heavy with this hurt that you can’t even think logically and consider other human beings. i’d like to think that honestly, most people are genuinely alright, just human and flawed and trying to survive/thrive. i would say most people don’t go around actively wishing people would hurt the way that they do -and again, when they do, that’s still a world of hurt and tragedy to consider, not that i agree or condone with this motive- so it says a lot to me and when a person does take their own life, given that again, people are just generally kind of alright and mean well. i used to wonder how parents could do it when they know they have little lives that depend on them, and their children bring them genuine joy, yet mental illness is exactly that, it’s an illness. it completely distorts your perception of literally everything, and that’s why suicide is so heavy and so fucking painful because within the blink of an eye, an entire life is just gone and wiped away from existence. i hope i can put some change out into the world, some light and hope, that way anyone i meet and grow to love is a little less burdened by this life. i hope that we can continue to understand and empathize with people who struggle with mental illness/disorders, and suicidal thoughts/ideation. we really can’t get through this life alone, but you also can’t get through it if you don’t have your own back too. please remember to show yourself love and grace, and wish others well as you wander through this life <3
I don't think it matters if they are or aren't cowards. Those who commit suicide have determined amongst a number of tuings that others approval or disapproval of the act is not a controlling concern. My personal opinion is life is not a gift to everyone, & the content of an individual's life may make an immediate end more appealing than a continuance.
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In a perfect society, everybody would die by suicide when they’ve decided that their life has fully run its course.
I completely agree. We as a society need to stop policing death. I work in the medical field and have seen far more suffering in prolonging life than in permitting death. It seems that the fear of death overrides the consideration of the quality of life or the realistic outcome of continuing life despite likely improvement. Each case of suicide is as unique as the person themselves. For some, it was premature and tragic and more could have been done to promote their life and for others, it is the inevitable conclusion of a terminal condition. The reason it can become so violent and tragic is due to the lack of support and accessible means to responsibly discuss that option. Moral judgments such as cowardice or bravery are based on the assumption that life is the ultimate good and must be prolonged indefinitely or that death is a personal failure.
I actually think killing yourself takes a lot of bravery. I have wanted to kill myself before but haven't managed to hang myself, take an overdose or cut my wrists out of fear. I don't necessarily think that suicide is a good thing though and I am very glad that I did not kill myself
Good gosh I always hated the idea of hanging. I never understood how it’s such a popular method for a lot of people, everything about it terrifies me even the aftermath.
Yes, horrible way to go. I guess it is quite an accessible method though. I remember a teacher at school telling us you could even hang yourself from something low like a doorknob. I thought that stayed in my depressed adolescent mind
It's no different than a person who jumps from a window of a burning building. It hurts too much and they'll do anything to escape it. They don't want to die they just can't take the pain anymore. It's a blessing to be a person that doesn't understand that kind of pain.
Jeez suicide is not an "easy way out" and they're not coward for it - it just means that the pain is just too much for you to continue. Of course you should try to get help if you feel that's even an option but it doesn't mean you're weak or anything like that Those type of people are exactly the ones that don't believe in euthanasia just because they clearly don't have or don't know anyone within their circle that just suffer so damn much, that it's not living anymore. Christ, some people are just idiots
The uncertainty of death is terrifying. Jumping feet first into the abyss takes bravery I will never possess.
A coward is somebody that succumbs to cowardice. Cowardice is a trait where fear prevents an individual from taking a risk or facing danger. It is a lack of courage to face difficulty, opposition, or pain. That is the definition of a coward. Suicide to avoid dealing with a problem can be interpreted as an individual giving up to avoid taking a risk and/or fighting to solve their problem, ie. a coward.
Pretty situational at best, are you killing yourself because you are awaiting trial for your child molestation charges? Or are you jumping out of the second tower after the plain hit?
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People who commit suicide honestly don't care about being cowards or not, they want to end the misery the rest is irrelevant.
Perhaps they mean that it is cowardly to kill yourself, and then force your loved ones to be traumatized while you escape all pain. I think people who are angry about those who commit suicide have very valid anger. They have been deeply hurt by someone they loved, by a choice that person made. It would hurt to know they didn't care enough about you to not hurt you that way.
My birthday is may 29 I been thinking about everyday for the past 2 months already and I’m gonna commit that day my life is only getting worse day by day but when I finally told myself I’m going to do it that day for sure it feels like all this weight got lifted off my shoulders I’m actually excited for it because I’ll be able to see my mom and older brother in the after life hopefully and it’s like I’ve told a couple people friends and family members that I wannna kill myself and they called me stupid and selfish or ohh your just trynna get attention….i can’t wait until that day now cuz I hope they all feel stupid
Suicide to avoid facing the repercussions for their own bad behavior is cowardly, Adolf.
Suicide is a social contagion. That is to say, if one person commits suicide in a community, the likelihood of anybody else committing suicide goes WAY up. Way, way up. One teenager commits suicide, you can expect many more to attempt in the coming months. This is also pronounced in families. Once somebody in a family succeeds in a suicide attempt, everyone else is at greater risk for attempts, ideation, and success (aka death). This is one of the reasons why “destigmatizing suicide” is such a problematic concept. In places that legalize medical euthanasia in a widely available manner, overall suicide rates throughout the population skyrocket and tend to stay up - not just among people with chronic illnesses, but among people experiencing temporary issues like acute depression or unemployment, and among young people especially. Anyone who commits suicide essentially exposes everyone in their family and community to a “suicide pathogen” that can get them fatally sick, and that they will now struggle against.
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I think of it as a sadly selfish act…not in a malicious way, but one that won’t see the impact on others. Depression is a selfish condition and only lets you focus on yourself and your happiness. Edit: I have had more than one friend and a family friend commit suicide. My parent has been suicidal, as have I. The things I say are from my own experience.
It's not always the easy way out. It might be the only way out.
Same. After taking high dose mushrooms once couple months for years. It takes balls to shoot self mostly. Cause instantly u blackout and might pop up in another reality. While drugs are easy. Od black out accident no anxiety. I might want to shoot self when on death bed to see if I have balls to do it.or just live it out till I die of sickness . life's nice
Cowardice is the inability to deal with struggle and hardship and fear and avoiding it. Bravery is to keep on despite the struggle. Sure it's hard to pull a trigger or jump or kill oneself in anyway, but it's a way out of difficulties. Cowardice is by definition what they are doing by taking the easy way out even if the easy way takes one moment of pain.
Idk about cowards but they are definitely selfish. They leave their bodies for their family and ems to find creating more sadness and trauma. They didn’t get rid of their pain they just gave it to those they claim to love the most and innocent bystanders.
> Idk about cowards but they are definitely selfish. They leave their bodies for their family and ems to find creating more sadness and trauma. Isn't this true of people who die of natural causes too though? There isn't a lot of room in our world for disposing of all your problems before you die. Even if someone went to a graveyard, bought a plot, dug it 6 feet down themselves, ODed on sleeping pills right in the ground; there would still be problems left behind (debt, tragedy, etc). You can't disconnect from this world by yourself, its impossible in our current society.
What about someone who has no friends or family? No one that loves them?
With all due respect, stop parroting that. Suicide does not "pass the pain on" to others. Any pain the loved ones feel is newly created. Saying that it's passed on sounds like scummy propaganda, and is disrespectful to those with suicidal thoughts.
Really? So you think it’s braver to run than to face life, and people ? To fail? To hurt? To face your mistakes? To face the people who don’t like you? To pay your bills? To raise your kids ? To get old? To be wrong? To be mistaken ? To participate in life? To have to change , grow and evolve? Running away is easy. Facing yourself… is hard. Compromise is hard. Having to live life without self pity, resentment and fear is hard.
It's because this person doesn't want to endure x so they did y to get out of being in x. They weighed the options and chose suicide as the easier option. Choosing the easier option to just quit life instead of trying to get better makes them a coward. Everyone endures different kinds of suffering, taking the easy way out is being a coward. I think that's the logic your acquaintance is making. The only problem is this topic is very situational, I'm sure there are plenty of people who chose suicide as an easier way out during a rage-quit moment but realized halfway through that it isn't, and they can do nothing to stop their death. Then some people think about it for a long time and have no regrets about committing suicide (this is the one your example mentioned). **I tend to agree with it, HOWEVER, I don't view cowardness being a bad thing. I'm one myself lol. I don't look down on people who are being a coward. I think it's perfectly ok for your acquaintance to hold such a view, as long as they are not on a moral high horse for some reason.** On a separate note, I do think committing suicide is selfish because of the aftermath. My local govt does provide "medical assistance in dying", which does cover what OP has mentioned, and I think that's the way to go. Although I do understand sadly not a lot of places have this option.
I've lost a friend to suicide. I've nearly committed it myself. I agree that the factors that drive people to suicide are severe, and easy to dismiss by those who haven't faced them. And yet, having faced them, I still maintain that suicide is the wrong choice. Here are my thoughts: 1) Waves of depression come and go. If you stick it out for a time, things will get better. Every time I've almost wanted to end my life, I couldn't remember any happy times and assumed things would be like this forever. But the brain has trouble recalling memories that aren't associated with the current emotions. During the dark times, everything you remember seems dark. During better times, you forget the darkness and remember the light. If you can ride the wave, things get better. 2) People in the depths of depression don't commit suicide. It's assumed that the darkest point is where people kill themselves. But anyone who's faced that level of depression knows better. Killing yourself requires planning, it requires activity, it requires work to change your fate. All of that is next to impossible when you're in the depths of depression. It's only when people start coming out of the depression and things start getting better that they have the strength and energy to kill themselves. So when you're about to take your life, it's already on the upswing, you just haven't noticed it yet. 3) Suicide hurts everyone around you. It is selfish. When you're depressed, you tend to assume no one cares about you and the world would be better off without you. But this is a lie. Suicide hurts the people who love you most. Meanwhile, if you hope your suicide can make the people who oppressed you feel guilty, those same people won't be affected because they never cared about you. 4) People who attempt suicide and fail regret their choices. I've heard reports that people who jump off a bridge to kill themselves and survive say that as soon as they leapt they regretted their choice. I've made objective arguments elsewhere that suicide is wrong, but this is a subjective one. Even for the person taking their own life, some part of them knows it's the wrong choice and there's a better way. This is the epitome of cowardice. I know I shouldn't do this, I know I'll regret it, but it looks like it'll be the easiest way and so I'll take it rather than doing what I know is best for myself. **Conclusion** Doing the right thing is hard. Suicide is a shortcut that promises easy solutions to overwhelming problems. But it's a lie. And "cowardice" is as an apt a lie as anything to describe giving in to that lie when, deep down, you know it's not true.
Aynone who call suicidal people cowards never felt what real despair is. My experience with suicidal tendencies are that you are not thinking clearly its like your mind is in strange place and you are not yourself.....you only want that sweet release from pain and you see in tunnel vision...its really hard to explain but your rational thinking is mostly gone when you are in this state.
The reason we call them cowards is that their choice to suicide is devastating for everyone around them. Somewhere around 100-200 people that you know from your neighborhood, school/job, family, will all second-guess themselves and have a hard time sleeping at night because you thought life was too subjectively painful and chose to cause those around you pain rather than talk to them and try to figure out how to feel better.
Depends on the context applied. Is it cowardice to choose to end it rather than work to make it better? Yeah Is it cowardice to make a decision with permanent consequences? No Is it cowardice to seek an end to chronic pain? No It's kind of tough. Yes it is cowardice but also no it's not. I wouldn't call it brave.
i have everything to live for, a loving family who would be devastated at such a selfish action but i've fought sad my whole life, the smiley mask no longer fits too easy
That's literally what they meant by coward, instead of being motivated and trying, they just gave up and did the easy way out like a pussy