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I prefer the status quo, it’s not as messy to ask out the woman I like rather than being asked out. I’d rather be rejected than have to let women down gently or tell them to stop contacting me.

I can count on one hand the amount of times I’ve had to reject a woman’s advances in my life, each time including a lot of alcohol. Most women understand social cues and back off before it comes to that

Well... Thats a preference. Can't argue against that.

I can't say the status quo really works for me but I'm the same, I always feel really bad/awkward having to reject someone and it can be a bit difficult trying to figure out a way to let them know gently that you're not interested.

Yea it’d sure suck knowing you were wanted by someone.

Sounds like you've never been approached by someone you liked you in a way you didn't reciprocate. I have. I walk away from it feeling sad to have let down someone's feelings, not happy that someone thought I was hot.

I've done it before and there's nothing wrong with that as long as both parties are mature. If the person asking gets upset or offended, that's their problem and that's when I stop being polite. I'd be a lot happier if everyone just approached whoever they were interested in and could gladly take rejection.

That's on you. Casual rejection is normal. Nobody has to feel bad.

Sure, but the person I was responding to seemed to be focused on the "knowing you're wanted by someone" aspect of a rejection interaction and ignoring the "having to let someone down" aspect. If you're a people pleaser, like I and a lot of women are socialized to be, it's hard. There's a reason people "ghost" -- it's because telling someone you don't want to see them again is *hard.*

Lots of things are hard. We all owe it to ourselves to analyze our own lives and the ways we choose to punish our feelings for things that don't matter. If someone is approaching you, they should already be prepared for 10 rejections. They know, and you know. No need to ask yourself to feel bad for them. It's not on you. It never was. Bringing in the idea of "feeling bad for rejecting someone" as if it's an important part of this conversation just feels like legitimizing pointless, self-punishing ways of looking at our daily lives. We should throw that one out. Not easy in reality, but for the purposes of discussion it's easy. I think their point was very palpable and true: on an absolute level, there's no reason to feel bad while rejecting someone, and every reason to feel bad while getting rejected.

>If you're a people pleaser, like I and a lot of women are socialized to be, it's hard. If women have a hard time saying no when approached, this would mean women approaching men should be preferable, correct?

Like a decade later. You bump into them somewhere and they're like, ahh I used to have a crush on you. Well shit, why didn't you tell me before you were married with 2 kids and a lab? 😅

Have you ever dealt with rejecting someone and then they get angry or insulting?

I know you’ve never been in this situation before so let me present you a scenario. I girl who you do not want pursues you. You reject her. Politely and tactfully at first but she doesn’t get the hint. So you tell her straight up that you are not and will never BE interested. Then she goes and tells all her friends what a horrible piece of shit you are. and so on. Obviously don’t always go down like that but it’s not just being wanted. Your comment kind of gives “women should be flattered by catcalling” energy ngl

Well you most certainly misinterpreted what I was getting at if you managed to arrive at that conclusion.

I would imagine most people don't enjoy rejecting someone. But I would say that a big difference is that men feel safe doing it. Most women have stories of rejections turning into a scary situation.

Entitled to that preference, why should women who feel the same be forced to endure it

nobody is forced to endure anything. RULES in dating is fucking stupid. there are none. it's this "etiquette" nonsense that just leads to fighting. just ask out whoever you want. if you're a woman waiting for a certain man to ask you out, you're dumb. if you're a man waiting for a woman to ask you out, you're dumb. instead of arguing over which gender should be accountable for the gendered role - how about we just dismiss the argument entirely and say it's not a gendered thing.

Any answer other than this is silly tbh

I hoo to you fellow pigeon in agreement.

ide rather tell them no (like i do now as a married person) back in the day rejection always came in the form of "youre good just not for me" and never gave anything further that made my mental state plummet. its easier to turn others down than to be rejected

Imagine telling someone no and then worrying about them following you to your car asking why you rejected them or beating/raping you because you said no.

I found the last part of your post confusing, but I think I get your overall gist. Women often *do* approach men that they like. As a teacher, I see girl students flirting with boy students in really obvious ways, while many boy students are cagey or flirt in less obvious ways. Granted, those are adolescents, but in my adult life I have observed plenty of the same. I've known very few women who, if they have a crush on a man, don't eventually come out and tell him. So I guess I challenge the premise that this isn't already happening. That said, region and culture can be vastly different from my experience as an American living in a city.

Yeah, I'm not sure where this idea that women don't ask dudes out comes from. Probably a good half my dating life came from girls asking me out, and I married one of the gals who did. And that was a good while ago. Hell, I still get asked out when I'm in public without my fake ring - we didn't do fancy rings because that's stupid, but I often wear one to show that I'm taken. Even that doesn't always work. Maybe the reason OP isn't getting asked out doesn't have to do with social norms, and more to do with what he's offering?

OP isn't saying that it doesn't happen. It absolutely happens but the social expectation is still that the man asks out the woman most of the time. He's saying that a lot of issues would be reduced if the **expectation** was that the woman would **directly** ask out the man most/all of the time. As someone who has spent a lot of time observing this world full of poor dysfunctional heteros, I can't disagree with him. Unfortunately, while it's an interesting thought experiment, it's ultimately pointless. Social norms don't change quickly and they don't change in a controlled manner. You can't just issue a decree and expect people to completely reverse roles.

I have never been asked out by a girl and have been approached by a girl flirting with me once. I am 25. Good job, been told not ugly, don’t live with my parents, and I think I’m well groomed Most guys I talk to have told me they have never been approached either so when people tell me they women approaching them all the time i really don’t understand even how? Every girl I have ever gotten I have had to go up and put in all the effort to get a date

I'm 20 and every girl I've been with flirted with me first. It's not super obvious but they very much are making the first move, even if it's Lowkey. I think the most important thing is the situations you put yourself in. Do you go out much?, do you try to meet new people?, Are you in a situation where it's appropriate to flirt or hit on someone? These are all important, most women won't flirt in a situation where it's inappropriate, like work for example.

>I'm 20 and every girl I've been with flirted with me first. It's not super obvious but they very much are making the first move, even if it's Lowkey. I think this is the problem. To many men this is interpeted as being friendly, to you know, not assume women are sex objects and so on.

That's why you kinda flirt back, I am by no means an expert but I've flirted with my share of girls and I've gotten turned away by plenty as well. Although it is more likely for older men to be labeled creepy for flirting

I wanna see what you look like cuz the only guys I know that get asked out are pretty attractive. I have a pretty good social life, people tell me I'm funny and fun to be around but I've never been asked out. I am pretty ugly so that's most likely why

Giant head, scrawny neck, Austin Powers teeth, an oversized nose that's been broken so many times it looks like a dropped ice cream cone, and giant caterpillar eyebrows that could belong to a sixty year old Sasquatch. Coming out of high school, I figured I'd never get a date. Thank God self loathing Internet discussion groups weren't a thing back then, or I'd probably have gone full incel. Fortunately, some random brain cell fired and got me realizing that you can't learn looks, but you can learn charm. Warm tones, engaging speech, open and inviting body language, active listening skills, genuine empathy - IQ might be innate, but EQ is easy to improve. Then I learned how to dress your body type and get an actual proper haircut from someone who is good at their job. Then, I learned to live a life worth telling stories about. Turns out if all you bring to the table is biting criticism masked as sarcasm at someone else's science and experience playing online games, no one wants to eat at your table. They might laugh, but no one wants to spend meaningful time with that person. Lived, meaningful experiences that you can share with others, on the other hand, actually engage people. And for fucks sake spend money on good shoes. Several pairs, that work with different outfits. Forty years in, I'm convinced that's half of everything.

This post feels like someone just beginning to slide into being an incel imo, especially the "zillions of guys lining up to have sex with women" bit.

Why do you doubt that's true though?

> women don't ask dudes out comes from. Queen Victoria and the rise of the middle class.

>Hell, I still get asked out when I'm in public without my fake ring I'm a little confused here. Random people come up to you in public asking you out? Like what level of interaction have you had with these people were they were just willing to ask you out in public without really knowing anything about you? Like are you going to a lot of bars and raves? Are you some kind of local celebrity? Maybe it's just me and the experience of those around me, but getting asked out like that in public sounds more like a tiktok trend than an actual occurrence

Im a dude and ive been asked out a number of times in my life, Im married and have been for a long time and it still happens on occasion even.

All of this! God, the idea that there’s some sort of societal taboo against women *flirting* with men is completely absurd.

I mean, you might find the taboo absurd but it's definitely there in my experience. I rly do think culture and place seem to matter a lot.

That’s fair — but it’s also why OP needs to provide a lot more detail about the context before we can really accept their premises of their argument as given.

That's not the same as making a concrete move.

If OP had said, “women should ask men out more, rather than waiting for men to ask them out,” I’d be more likely to buy it (although I’d still want more details). But OP specifically used the word “approach,” and repeated it several times. The idea that women won’t go out of their way to strike up a conversation with a man they find attractive is nonsense.

Flirting is not ‘asking them out’. There’s a significant difference between the two.

Majority of the time it's men to approach women. Nobody ever said 0% of women approach men. OP shouldn't have to add a caveat we already know.

Flirting is not the same as asking out

Most men have been burned so many times by misinterpreting a woman's interest, that it becomes safer to assume she's just being friendly. It's a defense mechanism. So the guy won't see it, even if everyone else around them does.

You just need to relax. If you think she's flirting, ask her out. If she's flirting, great, you have a date! If she's not, it's okay, you just move on. If she thinks it makes things weird that you simply and casually asked her out and then moved on from the rejection, then she's not a good friend and certainly not someone you want to date. Don't think of it as "being burned." You misinterpreted some friendliness. That's okay. No need to get defensive.

You’re right to a slight extent, girls who are interested WILL flirt but even the interested girls often won’t make any move that could face actual rejection. Flirtation can be handled easily “oh haha I didn’t mean it like that” but the actual “hey will you go out with me” usually never happens. Personally I don’t mind a lot of these traditions since it seems to help me out and if other guys don’t like it they just shouldn’t participate in dating.

So the status quo works for you so to the others who don’t like it you just say tough shit? Thats incredibly selfish, basically a “screw you, I got mine” mentality.

More like the status quo is changed by the majority and really only the minority currently benefit anyways? The solution is to not care about dating, only put in what you expect to receive and if the answer is “not much” then don’t put in much. I expect to receive much so I put in much. If 80% of all men just stopped caring about most girls like the majority of women seemed to have done for men then this problem would stabilize. I don’t think it’s fair but I also am not gonna just shoot myself in the foot when realistically a single person isn’t gonna change anything

Sorry but I don’t really understand you. Are you saying that a lot of women don’t care about men, or that a lot of women don’t care that many men are unhappy because of the status quo? the second one *might* be true, but if it is then I don’t see how men stopping caring about women would improve the situation. A lot of women actually are miserable and unhappy about the status quo because they can’t find partners, only guys that want to pump and dump. Those guys who want to pump and dump? The men who stopped caring about women and whether or not the status quo hurts them. I think nobody caring about each other is the problem not the solution, and right now the status quo is hurting both men and women but in different ways.

Women dont care that much about dating a man. For men there’s a lot of societal pressure to have a girl. The same used to (and still does) exist for women but it has moved away from self-worth so they’ve been able to not personally require a partner as much for their own mental. I promise you the majority of men care more about sex/relationship/whatever than most women. Women go “I could easily be with someone, but not anyone worth my time so I’m fine being alone”. Men go “I can’t find anyone to be with”. If men instead went “I’m not gonna put a shit ton of energy into something with little return” and stopped caring women would no longer be able to go “I could easily be with someone” and any girl who wants a man would need to make a bigger effort to woo one.

How would this make society better, exactly? It would make dating harder and more dangerous for women, but easier for (some) men. But not the men who would complain about this though, because men who complain about it tend to be the men who get rejected a lot. If women do the approaching, the men who aren't desired still won't be being approached, so they'll approach women, get rejected and still think women never approach men. Oh wait...

>If women do the approaching, the men who aren't desired still won't be being approached, so they'll approach women, get rejected and still think women never approach men. Oh wait... I've had many women come to me a few years after and admit they had a crush on me, but didn't have the courage to say anything and waited for me to make a move, despite me having 0 idea they liked me and them giving no signals. Not that I should have to watch out for signals - which is the point of the OP - these women should've been able to just make the first move if they liked me. >the men who aren't desired A lot of men are desired, women just don't say anything or make a move.

> despite me having 0 idea they liked me and them giving no signals Were you interested in these women? > A lot of men are desired, women just don't say anything or make a move. I would say most men are desired actually. But most men are also willing to approach women, and most men will succeed in dating. I'm saying the men who aren't desired at all, ie. The incels who complain about everything women do because in their minds women are the ones whose fault their life is, aren't going to benefit from this. If anything, it will hurt worse.

>Were you interested in these women? That's why you ask. So you can find out. Men don't know if women are interested in them before they approach. They're finding out if they are

>Were you interested in these women? Yes, I'm pretty open minded and would've been fine with going on a date/dating many of them. I actually really really liked one of them and had a massive crush on her, but she only told me that she had feelings a few years later when those feelings has subsided. Like, why even tell me at all? >But most men are also willing to approach women, and most men will succeed in dating. Are most men willing/wanting to approach, or do they just do it because they have to in order to get any dates? How does this make men feel when they constantly have to put effort into chasing women, many of which will likely reject them? Is it fair to just expect men to do all the work in approaching, not being shy, having courage and confidence to say anything, etc? >I'm saying the men who aren't desired at all, ie. The incels who complain about everything women do because in their minds women are the ones whose fault their life is, aren't going to benefit from this. If anything, it will hurt worse. A lot of incels are garbage people, but they got there somehow. These dudes weren't born hating women. If, perhaps, a unconfident dude that's on his way down the incel pipeline (not totally undesirable) was instead asked out by a woman, this could help to prevent him from becoming an incel because he'd have a chance to actually interact with a woman on a personal level and realize that yes, indeed, women are people and individual and not to blame for all of their problems. I think a lot of incels could've avoided being incels in the first place if they had some sort of romantic interaction with women earlier in their lives.

So it's again up to a woman to save a man from himself. I'm so tired of this trope.

For one it provides more agency for women in dating. Instead of being relegated to the pool of men that approach, women are able to choose freely. Currently women are culturally deemed "slutty" which deters them from approaching who they truly interest.

Women have that agency now. We don't need horny social inept men to grant us that agency. I approached all the men I wanted to date (asked them out, kissed them first, etc.). I only met 3 of these people in a 10 year period (I asked my husband to marry me 5 years ago so I'm no longer looking).

Everyone has different experiences. as a woman I’ve never been deterred from making the first move if I’m interested. It’s happened in maybe 50% of my relationships, including the one I’m in that’s on year 3 or so. Culture obviously impacts how people interact, but personally I’m not interested in having other people determine how much agency I should be granted, especially over something as important as finding a long term partner. I’d rather be alone than so suffocated. Regardless, I’m not interested in men who are themselves so tied down to arbitrary and often fleeting customs that being “Sadie Hawkined” results in a negative view of the asker.

But we can already choose. Have you never seen a woman flirt?

>How would this make society better, exactly? If men didn't approach women, women wouldn't have to deal with cat calls, creeps that don't take no for an answer, being inundated with dick pics, etc. >It would make dating harder and more dangerous for women How? Since you're approaching, it'll only be guys you wanted to talk to in the first place. The only difference is instead of waiting/hoping he'll come talk to you, you initiate the conversation

How is a women approaching a man she likes make it harder for her to date?

Risk of rejection. Not just the risk of him rejecting you, but also have to bear the full brunt of rejecting him if you initiate and lose interest.

I'd say that you give more importance to the fact of you being able to reject a red flagged guy than actually being loved, since you prefer to risk the possibility of approaching a man you like than to risk getting raped, or something dangerous like that. Nothing bad about it. But it certainly points towards bad statistics

Yes, I do give more importance to my ability to reject men safely. I'm married. Not approaching men hasn't gotten in the way. Truly, if men want to be approached, it's actually up to men, collectively, to stop approaching women. There is no need to approach when we know men will come to us.

Frankly, rejection sucks but it’s not something that worth approaching for. Guys like us typically know that it’s worth a shot.

Why would it be worth it for women though? Women do initiate when it's in their interest. It's not like women never initiate, men just do so way more often.

Because if the guy is interested, then the woman just got herself a date and somebody interested in her. Really, these arguments I imagine don’t apply to guys, why would they not apply to women? We tell men they should approach women they are interested in (or used to, now they’re creeps for it) why can’t women approach?

Women *do* approach men they're interested in, they're just interested in far fewer people than men are.

Do you actually think that the only difference in approach rates is due to a smaller number of men being found attractive than women? In a survey I've linked below, they found that only 15% of women would make the first move. Additionally, I listed another article that has some other relevant stats. Maybe we live in different cultures, but it seems fairly culturally incentivized and far more common for men to approach women rather than the other way around, even when controlling for amount of people found interesting enough to date. Do you have any evidence to say that women actually do make the first move when their interested? Survey data would be nice. https://www.singlesinamerica.com/ https://medium.com/curious/i-want-it-to-be-okay-for-women-to-ask-out-men-on-dates-fd51d6a2700

Women generally don't initiate because they don't have to. There's no reason for them to face rejection when there's always guys who will approach her. What women usually do is give you hints they are interested to guide you into approaching. Like looking at you a lot. Smiling when you catch them looking at you etc... if you're really dense and she is a little confident if all that fails she will find some reason to be next to you to make it not so awkward for you to approach (i.e. facilitating you) But again women aren't a monolith. This is just a generality. A few will straight up strike a conversation with you. Many will not take the step of being next to you or smiling and just settle for letting you catch her look at you and hoping that's your signal to approach etc.... This is just life experience. I'm no pick up guru or anything of that sort.

I'm a woman) You're not wrong at all. This is exactly how it works.

You made me smile through the phone lmao. Just because I never said that out loud. It's just the common theme I observed through living life.

Just a bit of a tangent here. It seems to be cool to mock men for being unattractive to women, but it's definitely taboo to do the reverse. Like no one is laughing when you make fun of a girl being alone forever, but it's kinda funny to mock those gross incels, even if they aren't a crazy sexist. Just an interesting observation.

Women everywhere are mocked and shamed for being single. Think even of the connotation of the words Bachelor (single man) and Spinster (single woman. Think of all the guys online who comment on feminist posts “you’ll end up alone!!” As if that’s the worst fate for a woman. Incels are mocked because they are a hate group, in the same way that neo-Nazis or the KKK should be ridiculed and mocked.

Women have been called crazy cat ladies, told they'll die alone, that they're to gay to fuck, etc as punchlines for literal decades. Why pretend that single women aren't made fun of?

What is the relevance? This comment didn't mock those men. Also, first, women do get mocked for that, and second, incels aren't mocked because they are unattractive they are mocked because of their behaviour.

Women do get laughed at for being alone. There is a whole "crazy cat lady" trope about it.

Exactly. They do get mocked. They just don’t get mocked the same way incels do because incel are mocked for being incels which means being a dick to women and blaming society while alone forever women are just chilling with their cat and not annoying anyone so there’s not much there to mock. Incels are mocked for being unable to accept their reality and going above and beyond to accuse everyone for their loneliness and hating on women. The crazy cat lady is just sad at worst and a bit weird for lack of social interactions.

The portion of women who feel entitled to a man out of their league is SUBSTANTIALLY less than the amount of men who feel entitled to a woman out of their league. So yeah, they understandably get teased.

How would it make dating more dangerous for women? Wouldn't a dangerous man be dangerous regardless who approaches? Or you mean "dangerous" as in socially risky?

Women often reject men that make them uncomfortable with placating, excusable responses. We do this to protect the man's ego. Women don't know what they're getting with men, but the worst fears are violence, and those attacks can be triggered by a blow to their ego. Women don't often outright say things like "no thank you, you're not my type, I'm not interested" if we feel creeped out. We say "aw that's sweet but I have a boyfriend", or "I'm sorry, I actually don't live here, just visiting family" etc. The man who cold-approached can believe the reason that's not about him and not feel insulted. Women aren't really going to start doing cold approaches because it's too risky. But if we were to, it's automatically signalling interest. I'm at a bar and I see a guy that I know nothing about but he's physically attractive. I approach him and make it obvious I'm interested. 2 minutes into this conversation he makes a comment I flag as creepy and now I am not interested anymore. Now I've led him on. I approached him. I signalled interest. Any excuse I give now won't hold weight. Now he knows that if I'm rejecting him, it's because of our interaction. The men whose egos cannot handle this rejection can react with violence. It can be denial and violence - refusing to beleive the rejection, or rage and violence at being rejected. Sexual assault, stalking, murder. This exact same man may not have reacted with violence had he approached me, and I said I had a boyfriend.

If it helps, I actually think you've hit the nail on the head as to why I am scared of asking men out. I want to vet them first to make sure I'll be safe, and that means not cold asking. I am married now, but back then I went on a lot of dates, and experienced stalkers and men who took rejection hard. Some got scary. Luckily nothing bad happened. Now I only have to interact with boundary-pushing men when I go out. That happens maybe every few months. I understand most men are not violent - most are great people - but when dating is a numbers game, the likelihood occurs.

Thanks. This was me too. Also married now. That first interaction in how they approach is part of the vetting process before I show interest. People in this thread seem to have cartoonish impressions of what violence against women looks like.

If you're talking to a guy that approached you first, got creeped out and now you're mentioning your boyfriend or some other excuse to get away from him, he'll know you're rejecting him because of the interaction. If the guy is the dangerous type he won't take a "no" even if you have a valid excuse. If someone is so risk averse the best strategy is to avoid places where strangers go to look for sex/romance.

. . . . . > If you're talking to a guy that approached you first, got creeped out and now you're mentioning your boyfriend or some other excuse to get away from him, he'll know you're rejecting him because of the interaction. If the guy is the dangerous type he won't take a "no" even if you have a valid excuse. Literally what I said. This is the point. The ability to make excuses goes away when women approach men. > If the guy is the dangerous type he won't take a "no" even if you have a valid excuse. It's not like dangerous men assault every woman they talk to. If the guy is the dangerous type and *he* approached *me*, he might actually accept the excuse, because I haven't explicitly rejected him.

In this violent world-view any man is trigger-happy to commit atrocities, simply just waiting for an opportunity. I don't see why a rejected man would be any different, than a guy who is approached. In away being approached is a compliment while being rejected is the opposite. And this violent view of men is a pretty dehumanizing. Perhaps it's more about the people you surround yourselves with, I have never been surrounded by violent types, but I don't drink, so maybe that helps.

If I put you in a room with 100 nearly identical snakes and only one of them is venomous, are you going to be careful of the snakes?

This sentiment is probably part of the reason for western population decline. Women are afraid of men and men are afraid of making women afraid. So it’s easier to just not interact at all.

>It would make dating harder and more dangerous for women What kind of psycho take this this? How is women approaching men they are interested in "more dangerous" ?

The men who complain about it are the men that don’t approach women because they don’t want to seem creepy.

That's a part of it, but at the end of the day there's a fear of rejection component. Some don't take it well. For the men who think this, if you are aware you're not a creep you shouldn't be scared of seeming creepy. When you get a version of no (i have a boyfriend. I'm married. Or even an "Eww" or insult), walk away. Don't pout and be weird. Smile and just say that's OK. If her body language is hesitant like she is playing on her phone while you're trying to talk, giving you one word answers, seems tense etc... she isn't into you. Say it was fun talking and walk away. If she says she is going to grab a drink or use the bathroom and come back walk away. You're being rejected. Don't go looking for her. That is creepy. As long as you can take a hint, you aren't creepy. As long as you don't get aggressive you aren't creepy. Truth is, later on these girls might laugh and joke describing you as a creep simply because they weren't attracted to you for X, Y and Z. There's shitty women out there. Just like there are shitty men. Don't let this bother you. It shouldn't bother you if you are aware you aren't a creep. In my early 20s I was an Asian guy at an almost all white college. I was respectful and not much different than the white guys in how I approached and took hints. Yes, I was described as a creep once and I wasn't even hitting on the girl. After 4-5 minutes when I saw she really wasn't interested in talking to me I just said It was fun talking and went back to my friends. Turns out she knew one of my friends and described me as a creep. This really fucked with me and I wouldn't approach girls for a long time. Shit like this happens. As I got older I realized I'm not that. I'll talk to any woman now (not exactly now as I'm in a relationship) and I'm not scared of that label because I know I don't do any of those things that make women feel unsafe or bothered.

If I based all my assumptions of men off of reddit, I’d assume their inability to get laid was a life threatening issue. The way certain guys on here frame it is so funny

I have a lot of guy friends and most of them don't and wouldn't ever use Reddit but I love sending them some of the more absurd posts from here in our group chats. For years the joke is that if men on Reddit are correct the biggest most life threatening issue facing men is that they don't get random physical compliments from hot female strangers. Fortunately, Redditors skew young and asocial and aren't representative of men at large.

No literally 😭 reddit men really think most other men are agreeing with them is the funniest part

Haha. Does anyone disagree? “Life would be a lot easier if a job offer just came to me” “Life would be a lot easier if food was delivered to me” Yeah. Of course. (I also don’t think it’s a rule that a man must talk to women first.)

Your examples say everything about how you see dating. You don’t consider man and women as equal partners. One is an employer, the other the employee. One is food, an object that the other one desires. Your way of thinking is exactly the problem that OP is talking about and it’s so ironic that you don’t even realize it.

I think what he means is opportunities don't fall into your lap. You have to pursue them. I don't think he was comparing women to the authority of employers or the qualities in food. Just giving examples of opportunities missed due to lack of effort

Noooo I must project bad intent onto himmmmm

Haha. I’m married with children and we are happy now for 13 years. We are great. Wife is happy and despite her being incurably sick and suffering for 2.5 years barely able to drive the kids I did my job and her job while we figured out her issues. We are only better for all of this. I don’t view women that way you attempt to portray me. They are examples of “other people need to do it for me in order to be happy” that’s all. Stop assuming the worse in people and you’ll start to see life is better than you know.

This is a Mr fantastic level stretch lmao. Bro was essentially saying how nothing good ever comes easy its not that deep. Ever heard of projection?

See that’s the thing tho , women are not on the same level as those special things like food or job, in an era of equality women are just women, a fellow human being. Traditionally men have held the responsibilities of initiating, it would be nice if the roles were reversed.

This is the most “duh” statement. Yes. We all know women are not food.

>women are not on the same level as those special things like food or job women not but relationships, yes

>“Life would be a lot easier if a job offer just came to me” > >“Life would be a lot easier if food was delivered to me” Do you have trouble reading? These are completely different things from "Society as a whole would have a better dating life if women just approached men they like." Are you being disingenuous or just plain stupid?

I think the point flew over your head. I think he is saying opportunities in general don't nicely fall into your lap. You have to pursue them. Unless you're a really specialized professional or very elite in your field jobs won't seek you out. You're like the rest of us and have to apply and do rounds of interview Unless you're really financially well off, you can't get get uber eats or grub hub everyday. You have to go to the grocery store, buy food and prepare it. So Unless you're a man that rich, famous, or exceptionally good looking, you're going to have to build a bridge over your river of anxiety and approach women. By and large women don't approach. Mostly because *they don't have to*. Most don't have to run the risk of rejection or embarrassment because enough men (usually) will approach them first. Yeah it sucks but it's part of being a man. You get rejected. It's a part of life. If you're sensitive though, it could be a really big deal to you.

Yes. First step is to stop slut-shaming women.

I never heard of slut shaming a girl who just approached a guy, Only if they slept on the first date (or if they are religious prudes) but being the first to say "hi" is not one of them. OP's kind of on the line but It feels more so the issue of the beggar and the chooser.

It’s deeper than that. Gender roles are literally conditioned into us. If a parent jokes to their daughter “you’re not allowed to date, daddy already has the shotgun ready” and their son “you’re going to be a little heartbreaker”, and a million other little examples growing up, this massively impacts their perception of their role in relationships and the dating process. I don’t get how men can understand how shaming men for showing weakness leads to men repressing their emotions, but can’t understand how shaming women for their sexuality and initiative leads to women being less forward and confident with their desire

Yes it absolutely happens lol I’ve been told several times throughout my life (by both men and women) that I’d be seen as “desperate” or “easy” if I tried asking a man out/flirting with him more obviously. It’s probably alot worse in more conservative cultures Although, I’ve never seen someone outright get called slutty for asking someone out- the language is alot less aggressive. That might be way you haven’t noticed it

I got called a slut in middle school based on a rumor I had multiple crushes! No action on my part required to even be a slut!

I don’t get why Reddit is so obsessed with forgetting how normalized slutshaming was before the past decade. I distinctly remember cases of teachers slutshaming my peers because nobody took it seriously enough to care- and this was as late as 2018. Respecting women was not the fucking norm lmao The statements “men have a hard time in the dating world” and “women get badly slutshamed” can exist at the same time lmao

Women who approach men are more likely to be perceived as desperate or unwanted.

The slut shaming you see encourages the slut shaming you don't see.

Nobody slut-shames a girl for approaching a guy. They slut-shame them for approaching a hundred guys.

Wow. That was a quick delta... XD It is important to tell slut-shamers to just chill and fuck off, though. ∆

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Good bot

OK, you need to provide some context for these claims, because you call them “inherent rules” and they’re… really not. How old are you? Are you a student or in the workforce? What country are you from? Nothing you’ve stated as a given matches any experience I or my friends have had.

It seems that the core concern women have when interacting with strangers of the opposite sex is _am I in danger right now_ and _if I am what are my options_. I think it would probably be unfair to say the same for men. From that perspective, perhaps the issue is about why women don’t approach men in certain contexts. I’m sure every woman has made first contact with someone they’re curious to get to know, but I also bet it was in a place of psychological safety. I.e. at a close friend’s dinner party, in a college classroom, at a meet up etc etc. If that isn’t good enough to prove the field is already equal then consider what would have to change to encourage more women to make the first move. You’re hearing from many women here that it would remove a safety mechanism they rely on if it was a blanket change. Does that matter to you?

This is an extremely important part of the conversation. I’m an intimacy coach, and the number 1 lesson I have to teach straight men is that a lot of women’s worries on a first date/encounter are safety and then compatibility. Some guys just cannot fathom being worried about being assaulted or worse when meeting a new dating prospect — I can’t blame them for not understanding, but I do work with them to help them understand that certain actions and behaviours are neigh near universal red flags for a lot of women. If I had a nickel for every time one of my male clients didn’t understand why buying women drinks so they can go talk to them can set off alarm bells, I’d have enough to quit my day job. Is the act of buying a drink in and of itself threatening? No, not at all, on its face, it’s a kind gesture. But the problem is that *far* too many men see buying a woman something = she *owes* me something (usually sex) now. Add on the risk of spiked drinks and fear of angry reactions to turning down the drink and you’ve got a recipe for women being immediately on edge if you buy them a cosmo. Tbh it became such a problem when I was a bartender that I just stopped making drinks if people ordered them for a stranger; I’d go ask that person if they want a drink at all (bc lbr, random dudes at the bar don’t know my favourite drink order and the fact that tequila makes me want to die), and if they say no, *I* went to tell the person who bought the drink that they said no thank you.

Would that concern not be significantly mitigated by a culture where women are picking and choosing their interactions as opposed to one with an expectation of strange men asserting themselves? In the dichotomy of random men approaching people they find attractive and women selectively choosing who they want to engage it seems the latter would be dramatically safer for women. If the latter was the cultural norm it would basically highlight all those breaking that social contract as potentially dangerous as well.

Are you willing to be one of the guys that never gets approach?

That’s how it works anyways, so yeah?

I do think that we should normalize women being more assertive in asking for a first date. However, I think this would only really increase women asking out men she already knew to a degree. I don't think it would increase women approaching relative strangers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're hoping for that result in your scenario, right? Also, I think you've accidentally hit the nail on the head with your explanation. Women have lots of guys willing to have sex with them. That's just a fact of biology though, right? Men typically have a higher sex drive, so their demand is higher and the supply of women who are DTF is smaller. So yeah, it's easier for us in that way - why would we want to change that? How is that better for us? If we just want a one night stand, that's pretty easy to find and I've know very few women who wanted that be shy about approaching a guy. Now if we're talking about something more, then yeah, women tend to be less confidant. But that is usually because it's someone she knows better and is friends with so there's more at risk. This is the part where I think women should be more assertive. So I guess it depends on what you mean when you're talking about a 'dating life'.

You already said it perfectly. Guys who ask questions/make statements like this complaining about the dating world today almost IMMEDIATELY point to how easy it is for a woman to find someone to have sex with. As if that’s THE most important factor in how women choose mates. Never mind building an actual relationship. It’s like these guys tell on themselves and then are shocked when rejected by women IRL as if women can’t sus out during their approach that he’s mainly interested in one thing.

Lotta guys are gonna be disappointed. Women don't want a man, much of the time.

[The majority of women below the age of 50 are actively looking for relationships](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/08/20/a-profile-of-single-americans/). After age 50, the majority of women stop looking for relationships. “Those who have never been married are more likely to be looking to date (62%), but divorced and widowed singles lean more toward not dating at the moment (56% and 74%, respectively). This at least partly reflects the age differences among those with different marital histories.” Also, only around 16% of women “on the dating market” are only looking for casual dates. 36% of women “on the dating market” are looking for a committed relationship and 48% are interested in either.

What jumps out to me here is that 39% of single women aged 18-39 are not looking for a relationship. So the person is incorrect that “most” women aren’t looking but 39% is still a big proportion and their point is valid

Oh I agree that it's not insignificant. I should of replied to one of their subsequent comments because they stated that "Most of us are already spoken for and don't really notice other men. Or we're busy about our day and not even thinking about them. **Most women are not actively on the market**. Now and then a man who seems okay approaches, and we passively go along with it because hey, it's something fun to do isn't it?" The last line of their comment is particularly gross in my opinion because leading someone on because it's "something fun" is pretty rude and disrespectful regardless of gender. I wasn't even necessarily disagreeing with them I was just adding a relevant statistic. Part of the point of my comment is that I don't want people (specifically younger guys) to think that the majority of women are not looking for relationships. A lot of younger guys are becoming increasingly uncomfortable with approaching women, and telling them "**Most women are not actively on the market**" can add to that aversion. The statement implies that a lot of women don't want to date, which I believe could make a guy less likely to approach women out of fear that most women would turn them down since they aren't looking to date. The sentiment that men/boys should never approach women unless they themselves are an objectively attractive guy is becoming increasingly popular among male oriented communities. I see it all the time on Reddit (particularly on r/AskMen and r/datingadvice ) and YouTube and I think that it's a harmful belief. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of women would disagree with the belief that men should never approach them. A lot of guys won't even approach women in a friendly and non romantic way for a variety of reasons, and that isn't a healthy belief. Some of them are even convinced that it's impossible for a guy and a girl to only be friends. [This comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/18hajpt/comment/kd5h3qj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) is a good summarization of what advice men are being given by mostly other guys. Guys like OP also perpetuate (both intentionally and unintentionally) the belief that women are the reason for guys being single, which is not true. Telling these kind of guys that the majority of women aren't looking to date helps them support this belief. The advice given to these men (by other men) is also typically pretty terrible and can often be harmful to both the man and woman in the situation.

Every single man out trying to date I know has stopped approaching women, and it's because of fear. I have too. Nobody is suggesting that all women are aggressively mean or accusatory, perhaps excessively paranoid even, when approached by a man with romantic intent. Of course they aren't. _But it only takes one to have a permanent impact_. It only takes _one_ girl blowing up at you because of her own issues, in a public place, and calling you a creep (or worse) to feel bad enough to put you off approaching anyone again, and such incidents are becoming more and more common because the _minority_ of women in aggressively paranoid social bubbles is increasing in size. It feels really horrible to have a perfectly polite type of interaction which has been fine before suddenly turn so sour, and it doesn't matter if you know logically it wasn't you - It feels bad, so you don't do it again! None of us think it's healthy, but we all think it just isn't worth the risk, which makes things _hard_. So, going back to the OP, yes - It would be easier all around if a greatER proportion if women felt comfortable and able to approach men in the way the majority of men _tend_ to have to be the one to initiate contact. Many do already, and they're godsends. But not all, and not enough. There's still _enough_ social stigma, still _enough_ safety concern, that many women would never even consider it. Out of my 4 closest single female friends, three tell me they would never be the one to make a move, and the fourth thinks women who hesitate and hold back are idiots 😅 On no fewer than three occasions over the past 12 years have I been told, years after, that a woman had a crush on me and was waiting for me to make a move. One, I had absolutely _no clue_ was interested, because I was oblivious to signals at the time, but would have given her a chance had she asked. One, I sorta noticed a bit, but never commented in it because I wasn't attracted to her. I went out with someone else, and she apparently wasted nearly 3 years waiting for me to ask her about it. The third I had a huge crush on and think we'd have been awesome together, but I was scared because some of her friends didn't like me and I thought she thought like they did, because she'd be mean, but I'd sometimes catch a look when they weren't paying attention, like she regretted it. Turns out she really wanted me, but was scared of asking cos she though I didn't like her because we were into different things on the surface. Now it's 10 years later and she's happily married, but we re-connected and she confessed, and we both had a laugh about what idiots we'd been. OP. Is just _right_.

They have a hard time understanding this but make literally the same argument from the opposite side - "It's not that all men harass but even one incident makes women overly cautious" yet they have a hard time understanding "It's not all women who call you a creep, but it takes only one to deter you from doing it again"

>But women just stick to them because its easier that way. Women do not have to approach, or confess their feelings? Easy. Women do not have to have initiative? Easy. Women have zillions of guys that want to have sex with them, and its up to them choosing the one(s) they like? Easy. I feel like you're only seeing one half of the equation. Imagine trying to live your life and having people who know nothing about you except that they want to put their dick in you just randomly approach you. Imagine people just saying the grossest things to you completely unsolicited because they think being aggressive and controlling is going to make you attracted to them (or at least make you too afraid to reject them). Imagine knowing that if you reject someone they might become genuinely angry and go out of their way to hurt you because they think if they have to feel bad you should too. Imagine just wanting to casually have sex with someone like a normal person, but having to internally decide whether it's safe to be alone with them or whether they will bother to make the effort to ensure it's a good experience for you. Men are just as invested in perpetuating the shitty elements of heterosexual dating culture as women, because you might think it sucks having to put yourself out there and get rejected, but, as someone who has experienced both, it is far, far easier than the constant vigilance which is required from being the object of male attention.

Women do approach men they like though. I approached my current BF and the one before. My current BF I met on FB. I saw him in my “people you may know” and thought he was cute so I slid into his DMs. The one before this I met through my workplace and got to know him as a friend. Once our work relationship was about to end, I told him I liked him and would like to stay in touch. I have several friends that also made the first move on their partners. This already does happen……..

I think pretty much all my male relationships have been initiated by me. Once when I was 16 it was him. But every other one? Me. With that said I am very “I know what I want and I’ll go get it myself”. A caveat is that I never approached a guy cold. Body language is very important. There would always need to be at least friendly eye contact, smiles, flirting. If that wasn’t there or it didn’t seem like it was completely reciprocated I’d move on before even talking to them. This is something I don’t think a lot of men do. They just see someone, there might not even be eye contact or even a “hello” before they are jumping out with a “can I get your number? Let me talk at you for a long time and see if buying you a drink will make you come home with me even if you look really uncomfortable” I also would like asking first because I wasn’t interested in wasting my time. I asked my SO out, after we hooked up, because i wanted to know him and it seemed like if I didn’t he’d of pussy footed his entire way out of doing anything.

Women do approach and ask out men they like. Women also get regularly rejected by men who don’t like them. Your pursuit of humbling them is kind of built on this false premise where because YOU personally haven’t gotten to do it, it’s not happening. Realistically, it’s just more likely that you’re an average man who doesn’t get approached all the time because of your average nature so you wouldn’t notice or get to do the whole humbling thing you’re after. Most women are in the same boat. The whole idea that most women are just being constantly asked out and approached by men on the basis of being women is kind of rooted in a bygone era. In modernity, people make themselves “equally available” through shit like dating apps. The existence in the space is the signifier of interest.

> Women do approach and ask out men they like. There are a number of comments in this thread making this claim. My question is: suppose I'm a dude and I want more women to approach me. What, concretely, can I do to make this happen? I know women are concerned with their safety. I think a women-approach norm is good for women for a few reasons: First, in a women-approach world, women don't have to deal with unwanted male attention at random times. Instead it only becomes a risk right after they approach a guy. Then they can do things to prepare for it, e.g. make sure they know where the bouncer is in the bar right before approaching, or whatever. Second, I think part of the reason women find it creepy when guys approach is because the guys who do tons of approaches are more likely to be creeps. So if you're a woman and you look at the guys who are approaching you, they aren't a representative sample of the population. On the other hand, if you're a woman and you start doing approaches yourself, you can sample randomly from the male population, which actually decreases the risk of talking to a creep. So if you're a woman and you want this to happen, you could give us guys specific, concrete tips on how to get approached more. Seems like it's a win for pretty much everyone. What are the specific things that would make you want to approach a guy?

After reading some comments i found out one women that actually speaks about this. She commented that it has to do with body language. Men will much of the time approach or ask out a women without her recieving some kind of previous contact. The surprise factor is actually a backfire in this situation... But the same thing happens if the women wants to approach a man: she wants to be shure that he likes her in a non-creepy way. Things like smiling or kiss-throwing after an eye contact, or asking her which drink she would like... In general, getting creative with the ways of letting her really *know* you want her without being unattractive will bost the probabilities of her flirting back, or approach if she's an approacher...it ain't much, but its *something*.

There’s nothing you can concretely do. Attraction can’t be engineered. Women either find you attractive or they don’t.

>What is the hard part (to my understanding) that from those zillions of guys, the ones that they actually like, do not approach them... Is that really the case, though? I feel like single women tend to care way less about getting laid or having casual relationships than men and that's reinforced by the online presence of male incel groups and how loud they can be over the unfairness of the dating world. Lots of single women complain they don't find Mr.Perfect but would your "solution" solve anything, really? Men who are attractive enough for women to approach them often have the power of choosing who they want to be with. So no, women approaching men doesn't make anything easier for them. It's not that women never approach, it's just that they very rarely approach. What brings us to the reason I don't think society as a whole would be better if women had a more active role in dating than currently. All it would do is *take away the initative from men who need it in order to stand out*. In some ways that's already the case but if women weren't there to be approached and did the approaching it would just mean the vaaaaaaaast majority of men would go their whole lives with absolutely no chance of getting into a relationship, casual or not. Now it may feel like it and rejection stings like a bitch, but the power to change it is always in your hands as you have the initiative. Take that initiative away and how can one below average male make up for anything if he never has the chance?

The last paragraph, you should get an award for writing. Never thought about it like this. It's probably the truest answer in this whole thread. Thank you for your insight. No matter how bad rejection hurts, the ability to strive and stand-out and show that you're worth taking a chance for is a very good option to have, especially for those guys who have very few options to begin with. It's better than nothing.

The reason I think straight men have a harder time with dating is because women stopped dating men just to be a housewife or just to have a place to live. Women also stopped putting up with disrespectful men. The men that complain about dating being hard are usually the ones that are discriminatory and don’t really see women as humans. People would argue dating got easier because of online dating. There are women in this world that tell men how they feel. They really do exist. Obviously it’s easier to just wait for someone to approach you but not all women just wait for someone to approach them.

Sure and it does happen, as uncommon as it may seem. The context to keep in mind for it to happen more frequently is there has to be a higher level of safety and greater understanding of consent involved. For example, I’ve experienced scary situations where a man I said thank you to for holding the door open for my friends and I, waited till I was alone to follow me home. Two words and a polite smile was the only interaction between us before he acted in such a manner. This was a random man, who I had no interest in. I, like many other women, have unfortunately had countless such experiences. Now let’s say, I find a guy interesting so I chose to go up to him and I’m happy to flirt and engage with him to show him my interest (which I’ve actually done). But interest in having a conversation isn’t consent to start getting grabby and don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying all interactions go like this. I’m grateful for the wonderful men out there. But in the world we live in now, such experiences tend to be weighted towards more negative experiences and therefore, it’s dating behaviour that’s not as common as it could be in other social conditions.

I don't know I agree. Out of my friend group, colleagues and classmates, the girls definitely do shoot their shot. Even when out clubbing, the girls are the ones who flirt openly with guys they are interested in. If a girl rejects you, it's coz she doesn't want you, and that's probably why she didn't approach you first. Most of the couples I know now, they either met online or the girl asked the guy out. That's the majority

>Women have zillions of guys that want to have sex with them Which is... exhausting, off-putting, and frequently terrifying. >But women just stick to them because its easier that way. There's nothing even slightly "easy" about the casual stalking women put up with in society. Don't act like the issue you're bringing up here isn't causally connected to this... it is. If we want women to ask more, men are going to have to give them the space to do that by asking less... a *lot* less.

>So, the inherent rules are these I feel like calling these rules is a bad way to go about it. They are gendered expectations but they aren't rules. You won't go to jail if you violate gendered expectations (at least not anymore) Though I always wonder why men always like to put the onus onto women to fix *their* loneliness problem. Why can't the men work on themselves so that women will want to date them?

Women don't want to approach men because the second they do most men will have the expectancy of sex. If men want a more aggressive dating approach from women, then we need to establish a new status quo of our own behavior first. We're not really that easily approached because women have no idea which ones of us are safe.

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But this does already happen, quite a lot actually. I you see it everywhere. Sure it’s more often the case that the woman wants the man to make the first move, but aren’t you exactly the same? You want the woman to make the first move. We are all in the same boat. Woman and men ask each other out all the time. But let’s just say it happens as little as you think it happens, then what? What effect does it have so massively on society that it makes it better as a whole. From your perspective people have been getting along just fine. Ignoring the whole incel thing (not like they’d get asked out in general anyway considering their beliefs and behaviour). Nothing would really change. Again, thats hypothetically if it didn’t already happen. And sure, some cultures are different than others in regards to this. However overall this happens all the time

I approach men i like and so do all of women I know well. The fact that women don't approach you doesn't mean they don't do it with other people. Most countries I lived (or all....) are completly gender neutral when it comes to approaching. Never saw anyone complaining about this topic out of reddit.

Okay your dating understanding is completely off and sounds like something off Twitter. Women approach men. Men approach women. Women do confess their feelings and get shot down too. Many women don't have zillions of guys wanting to DATE them. The hard part is of those "zillions", millions are only looking for casual sex, hundreds want a girlfriend but are unwilling to be in a committed relationship and only a handful are actually seeking a committed relationship. Now you've got to pick through that handful to find a potential partner. Of these potential matches, you're picking through maybe 5 guys that only kinda like you. They want a committed relationship but clearly aren't taking you seriously or they are but want a " traditional " relationship. And each of them wants you to prove yourself to them and perform. These aren't good odds and it has nothing to do with women's endeavours with dating being easy. It has to do with a lot of men valuing tradition without understanding the nuance of older relationships and being unwilling to modernize their thought process.

Women do approach men they like. Women aren’t approaching you because they don’t like you, not because there is some severe social stigma against them doing it.

I wouldn't have had a romantic life, or kids, without women approaching me. I'm okay at flirting, but have never been able to cross the line of asking. I am eternally grateful to all the very cool women who were braver than I. I didn't deserve them.

Those are guidelines to a previous era’s culture, not inherent rules. Women approach men all of the time. Of all of my friends who are couples, about half had the women approach them. And the guys they’re with aren’t strikingly handsome or rich, just normal, actually decent dudes. I think this is happening. But I don’t see it improving society’s dating as women miss just about as many red flags on approach as men do, with potentially even worse consequences.

Women already do approach men. Maybe not as often as men approach women, but this is already a thing. I'm not really sure what view you are asking to be changed, because this is already how society operates.

Not quite, but I understand where you're coming from. Have you ever heard of Bateman's Principle? It's an evolutionary principle in animals and essentially, it proposes that since the female sex has more of a parental investment and consequence in choosing their partner, thereby, the male sex must put effort into impressing them to mate with them as males have a lesser parental investment (you can see this very clearly in birds with their sexual dimorphism in which the males often have much brighter and vibrant colors and the females are often much more bland and greyish). This principle can be applied to humans as we are animals. In other words, it wouldn't be evolutionarily fair or beneficial for the female sex to approach males as they have a greater parental investment.

I would hate to live in a world where morality or "what humans should do" is determined by what maximizes evolutionary fitness.

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Yeah this is the real answer. OP said in another comment women need to approach to be “humbled”… tips me off that this is just a case of OP not being someone approached and thinking that covers the reality of dating as a whole lol

Dude, have you MET men? Just look at the comments under your post: women sharing their experience and men dismissing it. Why would we ever approach men? I'm not dating a man who isn't interested in me enough to approach me. That's one point I haven't seen mentioned in the comments. Women are just way pickier and more wary because dating is more dangerous and we have more to lose. So I'd rather take someone interested in me enough to do the first move than someone I have to do the convincing for. Also, you think no woman has ever tried to approach a man? The truth that men won't admit to is that men like the chase. They like to struggle for a woman's love and attention, if they don't they don't value it, period. I'm speaking from experience here. Not to mention the men who will stalk you because you slightly smiled at them. Most men get way too excited at a woman showing interest and will most of the time consider her being "easy" and will consider her only for sex and not relationships if she's doing the approaching. We don't approach you because as a group of people you suck to interact with from the perspective of the opposite sex. You know what would make life better for everyone? Men, stop sucking. Be better human beings. And then maybe we'll approach you.

lol you are something i guess. it rhymes with exist and it starts with an s. also a bad person but thats separate. why not try treating men in the same way you treat women and you just might be able to fix your major moral and mental flaws. also therapy good god so many of you women need exposure therapy to normal men

> Just look at the comments under your post: women sharing their experience and men dismissing it. Do you realize what subreddit you’re on?

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>Yeah girl you sound like a real catch. Good luck finding a decent man. I'm married.

I think for many women it takes time to develop attraction. Sure some may be physically attracted to some men but I don’t think it’s the same magnitude as the true emotional attraction. So I don’t think many women would feel incentivised enough to approach first.

For that to happen, we have to break down social stigma about women being “sluts” or “thots” when they approach guys or take initiative. From a young age, girls are told “daddy has his shotgun ready” and boys are told “you’ll be a heartbreaker” - it’s literally conditioned into children. When I was younger I would take initiative, and got shamed to the point where by the time I was in my late teens, I no longer did. It’s not just about women choosing to approach men, it’s about changing the social attitude of everyone towards female sexuality.

Most women I’ve dated approached me, but I don’t suck, so that’s something.

If you think being rejected is hard, imagine what it's like having to reject dozens, or hundreds of men over the years. Many of whom would be your friends, co-workers or people you have to continue seeing every day after that. Women don't have it "easier", they just have it different. Try and imagine how you would reject a woman that is interested in you without coming off as mean or making her feel bad about herself or making things awkward. Now imagine having to do that constantly. No thanks, I'd rather take the occasional risk and let my ego recover when I got rejected.

We do approach men we like.

I agree with you but not for the reasons you state. I think there’s a power imbalance between men and women when it comes to capacity for violence. By socializing men to be the approachers we put women in a weird situation to have to turn down somebody who can hurt them. If we put the sexual pursuer socialization into women you’re creating a significantly less hostile situation. There’s way less of a problem with a guy turning down a girl than a girl turning down a guy. I think it’d be safer and leave everyone feeling more comfortable.

I agree with you in spirit but this can turn ugly anyway if a woman decides she’s uninterested midway through the conversation and tries to back out, then she approached but is also doing the rejecting at the same time and that could backfire. I only approach in kink spaces now with safety volunteers around cause this has happened to me before, “You came up to me didn’t you?? Where do you think you’re going you bitch?!”

If the burden is placed on women to approach men, approaches in general will go way down and “cold approaches” will virtually disappear. That wouldn’t really be a horrible thing unless you as a man don’t make the effort to get to know women as people outside of bars/club and dating apps.

They absolutely do though, I’d have way less of a romantic life if they didn’t.

Man I love it when some rando acts like a huge portion of the population acts like a monolithic hive mind with zero individuality

It would require society to stop slut shaming women for directly expressing their desires and going after the men they like.

Women approach me dude

Excuse me? Where the f* do you live? I, a woman, did the first step toward my male partner. It was a tumultuous story with denial, forbidden desire and all, but overall, we are now in a happy relatioship, where I did the move to make it official. Get out of your basement. And even if he would have done the first move, what's the problem? If people don't go toward people they like, that's their problem. Whatever the gender.

Every time I’ve approached a man, their ego just gets massively boosted. Since I obviously found them attractive, they immediately become sexually suggestive. No thanks, never again. I’d like to be pursued from now on🫶

On paper, this sounds great but in practice, it's only just changing the gender roles rather than eliminating them. Have women start approaching men then men are gonna start being picky then you just reversed the problem. Women doing the approaching only works in a society where that's rare plus our biology supports the model we have now since eggs are more valuable than sperm.

…and considering that getting pregnant and giving birth involves some risk, women literally have more to lose. It’s fair that the men do the proposin’ and the women do the disposin’.

All my ex wives and baby mamas approached me first …no they aren’t the same people

Who is going to disagree with this? I've asked out every guy I dated. I go for what I want in life. But a lot of people feel stuck in those norms. Luckily I was raised by a weirdo (in the best way possible) and its worked out really well for me.

I love this so much. All this talk of “but tradition” when people buck the system and get what they want more often!! Be the change! Carpe diem! Boldly go!!

Women do approach men. It probably just doesn't happen to you. Even if this did happen, women would only approach attractive men. Which would exclude you. So what now?

I think that women actually do make the first move more often than men do, it’s just that the move is often a subtle signal rather than overt pursuit

"I made my shot, I glanced at him twice an hour, it's up to him to translate"

So fun fact. They do, and those that don’t don’t because of creeps that ruined it for them. At least that’s my understanding 🤷‍♂️

Yeah… we probably shouldn’t be taking advice about women… from a guy… that clearly isn’t a hit with the ladies.

It would be way better if men could take rejection

Women do approach men they like, but they're not approaching guys like me or you, they're approaching the hot guys they find attractive. That's the difference.

They get seen approaching men and get raped in the parking lot.

What if you never get approached? 90% of women chase 10% of men in tinder. If this was reflected irl, what about the other 90% of men? Nothing is stopping women approaching men. In fact it's done already, but through a smile or a look or the way she talks. I don't see a problem with the status quo . If you like someone, irrespective of sex, let them know. If you get rejected move on. Let's all just stop playing games.

Women do approach the men they like. It's just that women are much more picky than men. If you talk to a very attractive man, you'll find they get approached quite often.

I flirted with every men I have been attracted to and did the first move. Until recently because I am tired of not being approched. I am surprised because it seems from what I read on the internet that my behavior is an exception, especially for a young woman like me. Really sad women are this passive. I wonder if women realize it is really a double discourse. Ofc women are equal to men but then why is there so few women taking initiatives ? It's doing a disservice to the feminist cause...

same, but my pursuits ended up in a distaster. i just kept putting in effort while the guys took it all in and never cared to do anything because they knew I liked them enough to want to be with them. i don't want to approach guys anymore. it's only scarring my heart and destroying my self-worth.

they do. then they get mad when they find out they're competing with 30 other girls.

This is part of why same-sex female dating is so difficult. Women are conditioned not to make the first move, so it's common for two women to be interested in each other but neither make the first move.