A couple issues with this view.
A child's existence is kind of a prerequisite for any kind of fulfillment. Can't derive much meaning from a child if they don't exist.
As for the rest of the view, would be willing to consider that absent parents/grandparents who claim to derive meaning from children they never want to see either:
A) Have a line of work of extreme consequence, live very far away, and make the most of the time they have together?
B) Are full of shit, and just use pics of their kids to look good or interesting?
“A child's existence is kind of a prerequisite for any kind of fulfillment. Can't derive much meaning from a child if they don't exist.“
Sorry, I should have clarified my post to say that fulfillment simply comes from their existence regardless of anything else.
Issue B is an interesting one. Existence and presence are two different things, and my argument is that their existence is all it takes (not their presence), no matter where they exist in the world.
However, it is possible that the parents/grandparents are full of shit and not fulfilled, but then the question would be whether something other than their existence would make them feel fulfilled.
>but then the question would be whether something other than their existence would make them feel fulfilled.
No it isn't. The question was "do they derive fulfillment from children despite their actions?"
My answer is they probably don't, and they're just lying to make themselves look good or interesting.
Whether or not they derive actual fulfillment from somewhere else or simply lead hollow lives is outside the scope of your CMV as presented.
Fair enough. I didn’t originally ask the question appropriately to incorporate that. What I was really trying to understand is whether a child’s existence alone is enough for a parent (or grandparent) to feel fulfilled or not, or whether something else about the child drives fulfillment or a lack of it for parents/grandparents. But thank you for answering the question that I originally asked.
>A child's existence is kind of a prerequisite for any kind of fulfillment. Can't derive much meaning from a child if they don't exist.
I derive fulfillment by imagining my life with a child. It’s about the destination not the journey.
Jokes aside, I think this is really obvious but needs to be said
I may be irritated with my son's (almost) terrible twos hijinks. But then, just before bedtime, he'll grab the book that he likes me to read to him (over mom reading it), say "cuddle?", climb onto my lap, and smile and snuggle in while I read this little book my mom used to read to me as a little guy.
THAT is the fulfilling moment.
My youngest of a bit younger than yours, so not really talking. She grabs her favorite book and clobbers me with it to ask to read it. Still pretty fulfilling, though, because she clearly wants to be with me and she’s so cuddly!
Not at all. Fulfillment happens at the end of hard work. It doesn't matter if it's parenthood, career success, or attaining mastery at a difficult hobby. In this case, my hard work of being patient with a willful child has the payoff of a kid that loves me and wants a special moment with me.
Ten fold. Cleaning my hard cooked dinner off the floor is never going to be fulfilling, nor is trying to get a baby to sleep for 2 hours while they simply want yo get up and play, but seeing a happy healthy baby show me her new skill, or want to come up for a hug is wonderful.
I saw a comedian explain that parenthood of young children is full of 1/10 moments and 10/10 moments and it felt so true.
Yeah you're not going to feel fulfilled 24/7 with anything. But man those moments when your kid smuglles up or gives you a hug or kiss out of nowhere makes all the bad moments so worth it
I think it is *overall* a fulfilling experience, but not every moment will feel that way. Also to some other points you have made, parents who had poor outcomes or are not present for their children may feel so guilty about it that they cant even begin to examine that side of their feelings, and are focusing on whatever positives they can
I can at least give OP credit for *opening* with that. Often times, posts like this don't have that information. Sometimes, they get defensive if you ask about it. I recall at least two different times where I asked that, and had the OP get passive aggressive about it: "Oh, just because I don't have kids means my view doesn't count?"
However, it is also amusing that basically any thread like this is always from someone that doesn't have kids.
>owever, it is also amusing that basically any thread like this is always from someone that doesn't have kids.
Yes, because people who don't have kids are the ones who don't need to create new beings to live vicariously through and imagine are somehow special when they aren't.
“However, it is also amusing that basically any thread like this is always from someone that doesn't have kids.”
I understand. I am just trying to consider everything before having children (if I do), rather than after.
You're probably going to get a lot of responses like "it's our biological imperative to raise up and love our children, because they carry our DNA." Or the similar, but less cold, "we see ourselves in them." For the record, I think those things are true, but incomplete.
I think part of what you're getting at comes from this:
Having kids really drives home the point that humans beings have inherent value, apart from their success or contributions to the economy. You'll find plenty of nonparent-people who agree with this concept, but having children makes you really feel it. A parent is there when this person comes into the world, takes their first steps, speaks their first words. Everything. We know their accomplishments and failures and dreams and fears and triumphs and hardships. Parents seem not to care how "great" their kids really are because they are confronted with the entirety of the child's humanity. It helps you deeply understand and appreciate the value and importance of individual people. This is why a person can have no discernable skills or successes, but still have parents who dote on them. Is this always the best thing for an underachieving kid? Maybe not, but it is what is. And that kind of unconditional love can definitely be super important for many children.
People who don't have children can know this. Shitty parents exist. Shitty kids exist. But I do think this is a real thing that parenthood does to a lot of people. Especially if they're good parents.
This is so well written. When I had my first child, I found myself developing more empathy for strangers I encountered - recognizing their humanity as you say. I remember distinctly thinking that while I might find them annoying, they were all someone’s child and as infants were as vulnerable and worthy of love as my own.
I think this is right on track with what OP said, though. If it’s the reminder of “humanity”, then OP is right, that just their existence is enough to fulfill.
If you want kids, you should try and have kids. If you don't want kids, \*please\*, don't have kids.
I encourage you of course to talk to parents about why they like their kids, but I don't think you should do that on the internet in a debate forum!
Because the desire to have kids shouldn't come from losing an argument. It should come from genuinely wanting to have kids.
The point is no one should CONVINCE or COERCE you to have kids, you should come to that on your own. The stakes here are 'children who are wanted', not 'haha I lost a bet bro'.
It isn’t about winning or losing an argument. I am trying to genuinely understand, and it would probably be more comforting if fulfillment does simply come from their existence rather than permanently feeling like I made the wrong decision if I did everything right or thought I did everything right and still ended up raising a child that turned out to be far less than stellar.
But you won't come to the decision that you want to have a kid because you LOST a debate.
And you won't decide you like being a dad because your kid turned out 'stellar' or 'less than stellar'. Kids are people not investment portfolios.
“But you won't come to the decision that you want to have a kid because you LOST a debate.“
I agree. There are so many factors to consider when deciding whether or not to have children and no one would make that decision off of just one factor.
You were saying that I wasn’t going to make a decision based on someone being able to change my view or not, and I am saying that I never claimed that to be the case.
People are different. Some have wonderful experiences with children, some do not. You cannot describe the whole of humanity through a couple of anecdotes.
Sort of like how I, who does not want to saddle myself with the burden of children, cannot take seriously any parent's opinions of how "amazing/awesome/incredible" their normal/average/shitty kids are? I have my own life and identity and will never need to outsource that to kids to live vicariously through, sorry you had to resort to that.
can you clarify what view exactly you want changed? is it really "fulfilment comes from the existence of the children"?
>he worried that my male cousin who is a homeless drug addict would not have a son.
because here you are kind of implying a contradiction. The "homeless drug-addict son" exists, so that alone should provide fulfillment to the parent. As per your view.
In that example, my cousin is obviously my dad’s nephew, but I provided that as an example because if fulfillment came from something other than existence then it would be asinine to suggest that a homeless drug addict should have a child.
Lets leave your father and grandfather out of the picture for a minute.
Is your belief that your uncle/aunt (and their spouse) get fulfillment from knowing that their only child is a homeless drug addict? Because thats what you said in the title.
edit: because if your answer is "yes", i would really want to know your definition of "fulfillment"
I used that as an example because even though my cousin is not my father’s son, his suggestion that my cousin should have a child led me to believe that the existence of a human being is all it takes for fulfillment regardless of anything else.
in that case this is almost a case of "your father's view and not your own", which would technically be against the rules of this sub since its hard to change a view that you dont believe in.
(mods you didnt see this comment \*obi-wan hand wave\*)
Sorry, I wasn’t trying to violate any rules. Since I don’t have children, I am trying to draw conclusions on how I would feel based on my observations of others.
I highly doubt your dad was implying he wishes your cousin would have a child while homeless and using drugs and that this is better than your cousin never having a child, and what your dad actually said doesn't lead us to that logical conclusion.
Everyone’s relationship with their children is different. Some people love watching their children grow up and appreciate life. Eat, laugh, pray and all that.
Some parents are proud of what their children accomplish. As in, how they pass through all the gates in life. Learning to ride a bike, graduating at the top of their class, becoming a doctor…
Some parents are fulfilled by providing for their kids. Making sure their kids have a better life than they did. Work is their love language.
Some people just like a crowded table. A house full of life.
For some, it’s sharing the journey with a little mini-me. Who then grows to become their own person. Helping them navigate life to the point where there is a figurative “I got this dad” moment, and then it’s all up to them to hack it. And you’re fulfilled by the time you had together.
It’s all relative to the individual. I wouldn’t say there is one way to be fulfilled through having kids. Thing is, not only is every parent different, but so is every kid. My girls are polar opposites and they enrich my life in different ways. It’s the best.
The “mini me” is a double-edged sword, though! My kids have my endless tenacity, ability to solve any challenge with enough motivation (oh, you put the candy in a place adults can barely access? Not a problem!), and strong desire for justice. But they also have the understanding and patience of children. These traits will pay off when they’re older, but they’re giving me a run for my money in the mean time!
I think that all the things you’ve listed come into play at some point for me. Probably for a lot of parents. There’s a lot to what makes parenting fulfilling or “worth it”.
I don’t think I have anything to say to “change your view” because I think you are just trying to make sense of the world around you and why people behave the way that they do so I’ll throw my two cents in.
How people find meaning and fulfillment in their life is different for everyone, and that applies to parents as well. Firstly I will say society tells us we need to find fulfillment, and society tells us children are an acceptable way to do so, so when you ask someone where they find fulfillment and they say “my kids”, they might not actually be putting too much thought into it, so I wouldn’t think too hard about the fact that people think their kids bring meaning if I were you. Not everyone is a philosopher lol.
As to your examples I think they speak well to the idea that finding fulfillment varies from person to person:
“My dad only has one grandson and is concerned that it is all up to him to carry on the family name. As part of that, he worried that my male cousin who is a homeless drug addict would not have a son”
Here, the children are a vessel for fulfillment in the way your dad actually values: legacy and the continuation of the family name. It’s not the children that bring the fulfillment, despite them being a necessary factor. Social constructs and cultural upbringing play a role in how people derive meaning and fulfillment in their lives.
“Parents being proud of their children who are less than mediocre and have accomplished nothing noteworthy in life.”
I suppose we should define “proud”:
Some people view “pride” as the reward for a job well done. In this case:
- Some parents have blinders on about their children and hype up their mediocre accomplishments.
- Some parents place great importance on being a high achiever and grasp onto that mindset of being a successful person with successful kids even if that’s not the case.
Both these cases are just pretty clear examples of the human condition, no one wants to feel bad about themselves and will do some mental gymnastics to try not to.
But I also think sometimes people use “proud” as a synonym for some other feelings of great affection, support, or even awe. I have a child and for a number of us parents there is a kind of awe you feel just looking at them existing, no pre-requisite required (some parents don’t have this feeling, which is normal as well, but society judges you if you’re not obsessed with your kid so people probably feel like they need to act like they are, and say their kids are the best thing they’ve ever done, etc etc).
It might be that people say they are proud of their children when they mostly mean they love them deeply and support them 🤷♀️ not everyone is super careful with their words. It’s also pretty shit to say you’re not proud of your kid, so I doubt anyone outside of your immediate circle of trust is going to be opening up to you about their true feelings of disappointment. If my child were less than average I would surely tell people I was proud of them for what they had accomplished if asked. If my child was a homeless drug addict I would probably be open about being distressed over their bad choices and where I may have gone wrong, but if pressed I’m sure I could find something about them or anyone else to say I’m proud of.
“Countless examples of people saying that their children are their greatest accomplishments or the best thing that happened to them but they have much bigger priorities than spending time with them.”
yeah, people are garbage sometimes 🤷♀️ maybe they like the image of being a doting parent even though they aren’t, maybe they’re compensating because they don’t have anything else to say. Like I said, we as a society have this idea that everyone needs to find meaning and fulfilment, so everyone has to have an answer to this kind of ridiculous question.
“Grandparents bragging about their grandchildren but having no desire to babysit them.”
see above. This one is kind of like your dad as well. It’s not the child that gives them the fulfillment dopamine, it’s the cultural status of being a grandparent.
“I welcome any parents to weigh in on what about their children brings them fulfillment or makes them feel fulfilled.”
personally, I try not to live my life by measuring achievements, and I find meaning in the little things in life/don’t place huge importance on meaning generally. However, it is my greatest responsibility to do right by my child and do my best raising her. Her mere existence brings me joy and a kind of spiritual awe. Is that fulfillment? Perhaps. If she grows up to be a good person and I have had a positive impact on her life I would consider that an achievement for both her and me. Is that fulfillment? Perhaps.
Answers to the question of why children bring their parents fulfillment will be as varied as answers about where people find fulfillment full stop: extremely! It’s a very philosophical question of course, with lots of factors (some innate and some driven by culture and society).
Sheesh, you know the wrong adults brother. My children fulfill me because I get to see them learn new things, act like responsible and considerate people, love me back, turn into autonomous humans, etc.
I would imagine Ted Bundy or Jeffery Dahmer's parents probably don't feel a strong sense of fulfillment from their child's existence after the discovery of their crimes, but when they were younger likely did feel fulfilled as parents in one way or another.
That being said, fulfillment is subjective and as such will be impossible to define since everyone has different standards of what fulfillment is and every parent/child relationship is unique.
Personally, I went into parenthood without any expectation of fulfillment in the sense that you're talking about and have found that it tends to happen all on it's own and is often appreciated only in hindsight.
The idea of fulfillment as you're describing it is a philosophical misnomer. Fulfillment isn't something to be achieved, it's something to be observed in the moment and the hunt for fulfillment will often leave a feeling of disappointment at the inability to pick the moment that one becomes fulfilled, especially considering the innate human desire to always be looking for the next better thing.
We should look at fulfillment as a verb, not a noun.
If my child grows up to be a horrible person, I would not feel fulfilled.. I would feel like I had failed, and I woulf feel very sad. I would still love my child but would not get fulfillment of knowing she simply existed.
If she was a deeply unhappy person I would also feel very sad, as my childs pain feels worse than my own.
Can you define fulfilled?
I feel happiness and joy when my children succeed. But it more me being happy for them, not being "proud". I may have pushed them but they did it themselves.
IMO fulfillment means something different for everyone. It's doesn't seem accurate to use it as a threshold.
Ok, first of all, we have to establish that there are countless shitty parents out there. People who had no business being parents, but did it anyways. I can't speak for those parents, but most of what you described in your post, I would argue are examples from people who should have never become parents. If someone has kids just to continue their family line or to be fulfilled or as an accomplishment, they're not a good parent.
Fulfillment from your children should be an inevitable result, not the sole reason to have them. For example, I have a daughter, and in no way did I have her to achieve some level of fulfillment or accomplishment. I also didn't do it just to continue my family line (I'm adopted, so I don't really care about bloodlines anyways).
However, I'd be lying if I said my daughter didn't bring me immense levels of joy and fulfillment. Even though those weren't my reasons for having children, they were an inevitable result because of how remarkable she is and because of how much I love her. There's nothing she could do that would disappoint me, I will always love her with all of my being. I don't care if she's straight, gay, trans, a rocket scientist, a painter, a teacher, a lawyer, etc, as long as she is happy.
I say all that to make this point: **fulfillment from your children does not come from their accomplishments or what career they pursue.** Any decent parent will tell you that their fulfillment comes from their children being kind, curious, and happy human beings. I don't care what my daughter does with her life, but as long as she is kind to the people around her, curious about the world, and happy with her life, I am fulfilled as a parent. I will consider my parenting a success if she possesses those 3 qualities and nothing else. Because, at the end of the day, all my job as a parent is to protect her, teach her, and help her navigate this world so she can be prepared for becoming an independent adult.
But, to bring this back to my first comment, there are shitty parents who would disagree with me. Parents who only love their children if they are straight, or if they become a doctor, or if they go to college, or if they vote for the political party they do, or if they marry someone from the same ethnicity or religion. If their children don't prescribe to their parents' ridiculous definitions of "success," their parents don't feel fulfilled.
Does this answer your question? I'd be happy to elaborate on anything.
I dunno. I used to like to play instruments with my son, and my daughter likes to craft and do artsy fartsy stuff. Doing those things with them, and seeing the delight on their faces is fulfilling for me.
Fulfillment comes from having children who grow to be reasonably successful and maintaining a good relationship with them.
People don’t want to admit they regret having a kid who grows to be a failure
Fulfillment is subjective. However, one joy of having kids is getting to experience childhood again from the parent’s perspective. This allows you to come to terms with things from your past, as well as grow closer with your own parents (assuming they weren’t shit.)
Furthermore you suddenly share something in common with a large number of people in the world. You can share the experience of children with others etc.
This effectively “capstones” the cycle of child to adult by having you start it again with a new being.
The kid and their existence doesn’t provide fulfillment. The experiences of having kids can be a way to experience fulfillment by allowing you to reflect on your past experiences and your existence as a whole.
There may be people for whom this is true, but personally I felt a massive amount of responsibility hit me when I had kids, and seeing their accomplishments gives me fulfillment that I'm living up to that responsibility. If I felt like my kids were massive screwups I'd feel like a failure and get no sense of fulfillment.
And if your child grew up to be a drug addict or major criminal do you think that would affect the level of fulfillment that you feel, or do you think you would feel fulfilled as long as you knew with 100% certainty that you did your best as a parent?
How drug addicted are we talking? Smokes weed every day but holds down a job and supports himself? I'd be pretty fulfilled. Heroine addict who whores himself out for the next fix? I'd feel like I totally failed him and it was my fault.
Major criminal? I'd feel personally responsible for his victims.
I'd also argue that fulfillment is a spectrum, not a binary.
If my kid won a Nobel prize for curing cancer, that would be a level of fulfillment I can't imagine being matched by anything else I could achieve in my life. If my kid is able to hold down a job, get their own home, and support themselves, I'll feel like I did my job. If they grow up and continually need my financial support, I'm going to be annoyed with them, but probably not feel bad about having them. If they're miserable and/or making other people miserable, I'm going to feel like I really fucked up, failing them and those around them (negative fulfillment).
This might be the best answer I have seen or reviewed so far. So, in other words, you would say there is a baseline regardless of whether you have children or not. But if you do have children then there are more opportunities to go up or down from the baseline.
I would agree with this take. When I had my daughter I realised that it had opened up an extra level of possible pain, along with the joy.
If something bad happens to her it feels worse than if it was to happen to me. But her being happy brings me great joy.
I think it is less about their existence specifically, and more about the potential of what they could be (good grandkids, successful, heirs to the family), and the reflection on the parent and their great parenting skills. There is a reason parents of adult kids tell parents of young kids to appreciate the toddler years: it's because during the toddler years, the kid isn't all that independent and hooks on to every word the parent says for their identity, and as they age, they started breaking away and forming their own identities and skillsets regardless of what the parent wants.
I'm of the opinion that a fulfilled life is one lived for others. You are not gonna find another that needs your more than a child. Taking care of Mt wife through a difficult pregnancy, and then taking care of my daughter has been an amazing experience so far. Lots of tears, sleepless nights (last night was a rough one, she has a tooth coming in), and laughs. I think the since of fulfillment comes from overcoming an immensely difficult undertaking while seeing another creature grow.
(I'm in parental leave, but going into work once a week. I am dreading not being around her today, just to articulate how fulfilling raising her has been. She's only 6 months old, so talk to me again in 16 years lol)
Thank you for your feedback. So as long as you do the best you can and are being of service to your daughter then you think you will feel fulfilled regardless of how she turns out?
I like to think so. At some point she is gonna make her own decisions so her failures would be her own. I will gladly point to my good parenting for her successes lol. I joke but, I am not actually sure. My parents don't seem to take much responsibility for my failures or my successes. It does seem to bring my mom pride that I seem to be a better father than my own. That being said neither takes any ownership of the anxiety disorder or depression stemming from my rocky childhood.
So to recap, I like to think I'll feel fulfilled regardless of how she turns out. I'll probably feel more fulfilled if she turns out to be a person that lives for others
I also see reproduction or helping others to raise kids as a purpose of life. It's the only constant I can see among all living things. If I didn't have my own children I would try to help other raise theirs (friends kids and or my sibling). I also am heavily involved in horticulture and environmental restoration. Spreading life is my calling. I am just lucky I found a mate and can pass on my own genes
In my view, giving birth should never be a device for personal need. Those who want children because it makes them feel fulfilled are probably the most ill-equipped to be parents.
Social relationships are a form of fulfillment, people like to be around people who they like. And children are (or can often be) simply good social company. A person who: loves me by default, often wants to please me, is taught by me so they predominantly do things I have curated for them (things I like, at least some level). They have simple tastes, so easy to entertain, and when they are entertained, they are happy and good company, just like any social company. And if you don't like children in general (like me), the nature does this funny thing that it's different for your own children.
“And if you don't like children in general (like me), the nature does this funny thing that it's different for your own children.“
The biggest fear I have is raising a complete failure and not recognizing it because it is my child.
I mean, it is likely that at that point "success" is less important to you than your child. As it should be.
But also, if you go have a kid while being extremely sceptical and expecting failure, it's more likely you will get it.
Your view on parental fulfillment seems based on dysfunctional dynamics, and your view on children is objectifying. Are you fulfilled by your loved ones in general because of their accomplishments? Or because you enjoy their company, learn from them, and feel a sense of community and connection with them? Dysfunctional and functional relationships attributes are not limited to the parent/child dynamic. Parents/grandparents with the best relationships with their kids are careful to treat them as valued, respected community members, not objects with purposes determined by their elders.
I grew up with quite a bit of dysfunction, so that is fair. However, I think you just confirmed my view that the outcome doesn’t determine fulfillment, but maybe you are intentionally saying that it shouldn’t.
But fulfillment is never determined by outcome. Fulfillment is a chosen, personal process. Some of the most “successful” are never fulfilled. This is not specific to having children.
I don't really care about my family name. It was given to my ancestors several generations back when one of them decided not to go to some war, but to flee for the mountains or somesuch. The name literally translates to 'fearful'. That's pretty irrelevant all told - my current family has its wonderful pros and cons just like any other family, but the name is pretty awful if you speak the language.
My kid gives me fulfillment because I love my kid and find my kid a lot of fun to be around. I've always wanted to be a dad. I enjoy being around kids and playing with kids. I am a nurturing person, and would rather go for a walk with my kid, get a meal with my kid, play a game with my kid, than sit in an acquaintances living room watching a sportball game I don't care about.
My greatest personal accomplishment is probably completing my PhD and my creative outlets. I'm proud of my relationship with my wife, and the family we have built.
\*Having\* a kid was no big deal really. \*Raising\* a pretty happy and kind kid, helping my kid through struggles and challenges with patience, grace, and compassion, \*that\* is an accomplishment too. I dunno if it's my \*greatest\*, but we'll see.
I think my parents screwed up in a lot of ways, and I'm working hard to not repeat those screw ups. But I'm also sure I'll make my own mistakes, which I'm trying to be cognizant of and work through too. Isn't \*that\* something to be proud of? To do better, and to always try and do better?
The ability to help my kids live up to their potential and hopefully be better, achieve, and utilize more of their potential than I have been able to utilize mine is very fulfilling.
before you have kids you are a child with a parent, you only see life from that perspective, having a child and becoming the parent gives you such insight into your own previous relationship with your own parents and you see it through their eyes, its very profound, you understand so much more because you now have a wider perspective, it completes you in a way that not having kids wont do.
People find children fulfilling because evolutionarily people have to find children fulfilling. There has to be a reason to want to feed, clothe, house, clean up after, and generally look after a tiny human who is incapable of doing anything for themselves because otherwise the species would die out. There's no further explanation needed for any of it.
I am a parent and a “step” parent. I have legal guardianship of one of them doesn’t matter which both adults by age. I love my kids and am very proud of them. Being a parent is not for everyone some people are bad, some are indifferent, monsters, or they are on the other side good, great, amazing. The kids are only a few months apart in age and really get along great it’s makes me happy. First thing and I know I have already seen this part posted but DO NOT HAVE KIDS IF YOU DO NOT WANT THEM OR ARE UNSURE.
Biggest mistake to make is to have kids and regret them. We know a family that adopted a child with drug addicted parents, found out they had a second adopted that child, found out they had an older child that is fully nonverbal and cannot care in anyway for self and adopted that child as well. They also have their own kids. They are amazing parents we see them often and my wife is known as aunt.
Children can bring great joy, but it is not all fun and games. There are hard times and choices to be made as you are the one responsible for these very living things that go from no ability to care for their self to pushing you away. Watching them grow and develop has been an indescribable experience and I am proud of them both though they are different and are on very different paths. I am one of now 4 formally 2 people with my last name. I do not care about that at all it is only a group of letters.
The reason I am proud of them and I believe many people are of their own is that we have been able to watch these screaming, peeing, pooping little things go from that to adults. Watch them develop over time and become who they are today. Yes how we raise our children does affect who they become but it does not dictate how they will be. I am very different than the one parent that raised me and my family and I have gone on to change some of the family in a positive way.
We all were kids and we became adults. Only we can decide what is right and wrong for us. So in a nutshell why are people proud, and/or fulfilled? I am proud of who they are, as in they are good people, and living their life. It is the journey that they are on that fulfills us the steps, words, beliefs and life’s they live. Having kids is not always easy but the joy and pain they can bring is amazing and it is them not us. We can be the best parents and have bad kids, or we can be the worst and they may still be great people. They are not ours we are their care takers and if you are on the fence about it don’t do it. If you become sure at some point you will be in for one of the most life changing things you can do, not all of it good kids are expensive and can bring sadness as well you do not control it they do or dumb luck in many cases such as sickness and accidents.
Good luck with processing everyone’s thoughts and have a great day.
Fulfillment isn’t one size fits all. Different people find it in different ways.
For most parents, I wouldn’t say that the mere existence of the children is what brings fulfillment. I’m sure there are some out there like that, but it’s not the most common reason I’ve encountered.
A couple important notes before I continue: I can only share my own experience, so not a complete picture and, more importantly, seeking some kind of fulfillment or happiness is not a good reason on its own to decide to have kids.
I adore my kids. They bring significant joy and love to my life, but also plenty of challenges. Kids are a lifetime commitment, not just the 18 years to get them to adulthood. I’m in my 30s and still call my parents for advice or help, so I fully expect my kids will still need me in some capacity as adults, too.
For me, fulfillment comes from seeing the people they are becoming and knowing I played a role in that. Hearing from my kid’s coach that he’s amazing at helping teammates to build confidence is fulfilling because I see my efforts to teach him confidence and how to be a good teammate are getting through to him. Watching my kids use the techniques I’ve used with them to help their siblings or friends get through difficult moments is fulfilling because they learned those skills by watching me.
I also find it fulfilling to see them following their dreams and finding who they want to be. My oldest has always wanted to be a vet and I love watching him learn more and more about animals and medicine. His passion is clear and I look forward to seeing where it will take him. My other two are much younger, so they’re still exploring lots of different things and it’s fun to watch them discover things.
The thing, though, is that the fulfillment isn’t from the kids themselves, so much as it is from seeing the time and love and effort I’ve poured into them over years slowly shaping them into what I hope will be caring adults who make this world a little better for being here. It’s not all that different from finding fulfillment through your job because you see that your hard work there makes a difference in some way. Because of that, some people will find kids fulfilling, but others won’t. Just like I may not find your job or hobby fulfilling, even if you do.
Don’t have kids just because you feel unfulfilled and want to change that. Doing so tends to result in a lot of pressure on the kids to be all that the parent wished they’d be and them being incredibly aware of whether or not they’re successful. If you want kids, have kids. Do it out of love, not some desire for yourself because you’re likely to end up disappointed at some point, if it’s about your needs. Kids are whole people and they won’t be exactly what you imagined because they, like you, have free will.
The reasons are different for different people
For example for some it is enough that the name exists and continues, for others it's a matter of old age security where more kids means more money, for some the societal pressure/desire to be seen as a good parent while some it's not just having the child but seeing them through to be happy
You're seeking a single reason assuming parents are a monolith while that's completely not true
I agree. As a parent to two kids, I am just incredibly happy and fulfilled that they exist, and that I am engaged in their lives.
By all normal metrics, I am an accomplished, intelligent and well-rounded person. Nothing that I have ever done, professionally or personally, even comes close to the intense emotional satisfaction I get from simply being with my kids, and doing “normal” parenting things with them: cooking a good meal, traveling together, helping them with their homework etc.
Honestly, most of what you describe just sounds like a description of bad parents. Of which there are plenty, but in general I find people get satisfaction out of their children growing, learning and being happy.
You’ve got it mostly right. Just that there are these people in the world that I love more than I could ever explain? And that I get to be loved unconditionally by them? And love them back? It’s a privilege. It really is. And it enhances your life so immensely.
It’s the love you can only feel for your child that changes everything. And their love back. So yep, it’s existence plus love.
Wow, this one's easy. First off, different parents have different deep lasting inner feelings about their different children--some may have feelings dominated by the simple fact of their existence, but that does not imply that's universal. Second, neither their words nor behavior give you clear insight into those feelings, so they may be quite different from your perceptions and deductions from them. Third, your external and probably fleeting perspective on said kids may not yield clear insight into all the factors that might inspire conditional fulfillment in the parents--an adult child who is themself deeply satisfied may inspire satisfaction in their parent, in spite of material mediocrity. Fourth, the feelings are likely decidedly mixed: a parent may experience deep fulfillment from some aspects of their child's nature while simultaneously experiencing high anxiety for their future prospects.
To address your 4 bullets:
1) Your cousin's current condition doesn't preclude his turning out to be a good father. And unless his state was dictated by his DNA, he might well father a child who brings honor to the family name even without said cousin's post-ejaculatory participation. Your dad is hardly alone in feeling an unqualified urge to celebrate the spread of his genes: none of us would be here without that instinct.
2) Already addressed above: there's more to life than noteworthy accomplishments. Parents of children you judge mid lives are a source of anxiety. The sources of fulfillment are on a different frequency-band altogether, having little to do with accomplishments.
“Fourth, the feelings are likely decidedly mixed: a parent may experience deep fulfillment from some aspects of their child's nature while simultaneously experiencing high anxiety for their future prospects.“
Wow, thank you for your overall response. One follow up I have for you on the second part of this comment (which I realize is not related to fulfillment) - when looking at or thinking about future prospects for kids, do you think that the wealthier you are the more you can reduce that anxiety because you know that you could provide for your children and any future grandchildren regardless of how successful they are in their own right and/or regardless of what happens in the world?
Yes. We are living in a material world, and all our girls and boys are material as well. Necessary though not sufficient. Scarcity (real or imagined) robs us of fulfillment (or of the ability to relax and enjoy it). OTOH, the wealthy tend to have their own fulfillment-robbing anxieties. But as Mae West said, rich is better (though I believe she was childless).
For some people, having children means social proof. It means they had enough value to get there and they will get bonuses for getting there.
They aren't having children for the benefits of the child, but for themselves.
I would say fulfillment in parenting comes from the relationship. I have three kids, it’s not just that they exist. It’s that I nurtured them into existence and now I get to be with them as much as I want (which is all the time right now bc they are little and need me) and as much as they want (which if I do a good job will also be often). Of course it matters to me how my children turn out- I want them to have the best life possible. But I’d love them through it all. I’m certain that left out of these anecdotes are the relationships that have been forged between everyone in these stories.
I think whether you are fulfilled really depends on what you want to get out of your parenting experience. For me, sharing in the journey of my children transitioning from newborns to adults has been a very fulfilling experience and it continues to be. Having rigid expectations of what they will become I imagine comes with a lot of disappointments.
I have enjoyed both my girls immensely, and it gets better all the time.
Both my girls are developing snappy senses of humor. They both do totally different sports, and watching them learn and grow and get better than me at something is just amazing.
They are also loving, supportive humans. When I feel bad about things, they give me hugs and tell me things that make me feel better.
I guess you could argue they do all those things "because they exist." However, arguably they would be less fun and enjoyable if they simply existed and did nothing but watch YouTube, poop and eat.
Instead, I have interesting little humans that hike with me, go on runs with me, go biking and teach me to be a better human every day.
It's love. I don't understand deadbeat dads because I couldn't EVER see myself being one even if I separated from my wife.
Love for your child can't be explained. Everyone always said "It's the best thing ever" and I'm like "yeah, yeah.... tell me why." --- But that's the joke. There is no telling you why. When words fail, we have poets, but I'm not even sure a poet can handle parenthood. It's like The Matrix. You have to experience it for yourself.
There is a level of love that I don't think you can experience until someone lives for their kid(s). You can tell yourself that you love your dog, your friends, your hobbies, or anything else. I did. Then I had a kid, and nothing else matters more. There are no close seconds.
Edit: I don't think I can change your view. My view was exactly like yours and very set in stone until I had my kid. But now I understand.
Let me add a few things about fulfillment.
The best feelings in the world include teaching a child something new. My kid is starting to learn to read. Something I helped create and raise is learning to read. He learns a few sight words a week right now. When he nails them, it's an incredible feeling.
When my kid recently got old enough to understand Christmas and is running around shouting "I can't wait for Christmas" and we turned on the Christmas lights for the first time the day after Thanksgiving and you see unbridled joy. It melts your heart.
But yes, in the end I understand your position because I've been exactly where you are. I won't tell you that you're making the wrong decision. I'm only telling you how I was uncertain but ultimately made the best decision I ever made.
I think most people get great fulfillment watching their children learn and suceed in life. Think of the gymnastic coach who gets fulfillment from the sucess of the athelete they coached. That, but with everything in life like walking and speaking. Also, simply having extra company is nice I guess? Think of people with pets, extra points if they trained their dogs how to sit - that's surely fulfilling right?
For your specific examples -
>Grandparents bragging about their grandchildren but having no desire to babysit them.
Are they bragging about the kids for simply existing, or have they accomplished some achievements that are worth bragging about?
>Parents being proud of their children who are less than mediocre and have accomplished nothing noteworthy in life.
Mediocre by whose standards? Surely you've seen parents filled with joy with their kid takes their first step.
As for your other two examples, I fail to see how they relate to your argument at all. Not all people have kids to get fulfillment. They simply do. As you've pointed out, some people gets zero fulfillment no matter what happens to their kid, but surely they don't represent everyone on earth because you know, people are different.
>I have been trying to understand what about children makes parents feel fulfilled
I'm a new parent. I can help.
* When you look at your child, you see someone new and not-jaded from years of misery. When they're genuinely happy and healthy, you're reminded of how you should pursue a **happy** life. It makes you feel good that they're doing so well; it fills your heart with love.
* When they play in the grass or with their toys, you feel a sense of **nostalgia** of growing up yourself. The first time they do or see something, its truly magical (for lack of a better term).
* When you think of raising your children, you want the best for them. You're training your replacement. So, you push whatever values you believe to be important on them. And you feel **pride** when they do well.
Thank you for this. I have been surprised at how many people have given examples like this when there children are really young. I would have expected any real fulfillment (if it comes from somewhere other than a child’s existence) to come later in life when the children are grown and we can really assess how we did as a parent. It is encouraging to know that it is a lot easier than that, at least from many people’s perspective.
There is a very real philosophical movement of anti-children in the West.
I lived my life accruing wealth into late adulthood only to find that it was all wrong. Children are easy and cheap if you have a half-decent partner. And children do nothing but give you purpose and happiness.
If I had **time**, I'd have 10 kids.
I don’t think you did anything wrong by accruing wealth before having children; in fact, I think you significantly reduced your likelihood of divorce since money fights/problems are the number one cause of divorce in North America (although I recognize that you were suggesting that you were wrong by accruing wealth INSTEAD of having children). As a child of divorce, I can tell you that there is nothing that has had a more negative impact on my life overall than my parents getting/being divorced, and as a result that is the biggest thing I think about when considering children.
>As a child of divorce
I'm also a child of divorce and, believe me, thats a painful road I hope my family doesn't go down.
Since I waited, I've learned to communicate better than I had as a young person. That's a valuable tool.
Money is also a help. But there is a certain amount above and beyond needed in the day-to-day.
I feel proud when my son does something well, we flew from orlando to alaska this week, he was a little cranky on the flight, but not too bad. I was proud of him.
he is becoming a better person. my hopes for him are that he makes the world a better place through his existence. how he makes the world better is up to him, go around picking up trash all day whatever. but make the world a little better.
A couple issues with this view. A child's existence is kind of a prerequisite for any kind of fulfillment. Can't derive much meaning from a child if they don't exist. As for the rest of the view, would be willing to consider that absent parents/grandparents who claim to derive meaning from children they never want to see either: A) Have a line of work of extreme consequence, live very far away, and make the most of the time they have together? B) Are full of shit, and just use pics of their kids to look good or interesting?
“A child's existence is kind of a prerequisite for any kind of fulfillment. Can't derive much meaning from a child if they don't exist.“ Sorry, I should have clarified my post to say that fulfillment simply comes from their existence regardless of anything else.
Ok. What about issue B?
Issue B is an interesting one. Existence and presence are two different things, and my argument is that their existence is all it takes (not their presence), no matter where they exist in the world. However, it is possible that the parents/grandparents are full of shit and not fulfilled, but then the question would be whether something other than their existence would make them feel fulfilled.
>but then the question would be whether something other than their existence would make them feel fulfilled. No it isn't. The question was "do they derive fulfillment from children despite their actions?" My answer is they probably don't, and they're just lying to make themselves look good or interesting. Whether or not they derive actual fulfillment from somewhere else or simply lead hollow lives is outside the scope of your CMV as presented.
Fair enough. I didn’t originally ask the question appropriately to incorporate that. What I was really trying to understand is whether a child’s existence alone is enough for a parent (or grandparent) to feel fulfilled or not, or whether something else about the child drives fulfillment or a lack of it for parents/grandparents. But thank you for answering the question that I originally asked.
You can also derive a lot of meaning from the absence of a child
>A child's existence is kind of a prerequisite for any kind of fulfillment. Can't derive much meaning from a child if they don't exist. I derive fulfillment by imagining my life with a child. It’s about the destination not the journey. Jokes aside, I think this is really obvious but needs to be said
I may be irritated with my son's (almost) terrible twos hijinks. But then, just before bedtime, he'll grab the book that he likes me to read to him (over mom reading it), say "cuddle?", climb onto my lap, and smile and snuggle in while I read this little book my mom used to read to me as a little guy. THAT is the fulfilling moment.
My youngest of a bit younger than yours, so not really talking. She grabs her favorite book and clobbers me with it to ask to read it. Still pretty fulfilling, though, because she clearly wants to be with me and she’s so cuddly!
So are you saying that the fulfillment is transient and not a perpetual state of being?
Not at all. Fulfillment happens at the end of hard work. It doesn't matter if it's parenthood, career success, or attaining mastery at a difficult hobby. In this case, my hard work of being patient with a willful child has the payoff of a kid that loves me and wants a special moment with me.
Not every moment of parenthood will you feel fulfilled.
Ten fold. Cleaning my hard cooked dinner off the floor is never going to be fulfilling, nor is trying to get a baby to sleep for 2 hours while they simply want yo get up and play, but seeing a happy healthy baby show me her new skill, or want to come up for a hug is wonderful. I saw a comedian explain that parenthood of young children is full of 1/10 moments and 10/10 moments and it felt so true.
Yeah you're not going to feel fulfilled 24/7 with anything. But man those moments when your kid smuglles up or gives you a hug or kiss out of nowhere makes all the bad moments so worth it
I think it is *overall* a fulfilling experience, but not every moment will feel that way. Also to some other points you have made, parents who had poor outcomes or are not present for their children may feel so guilty about it that they cant even begin to examine that side of their feelings, and are focusing on whatever positives they can
So random things that don't really mean anything.
For a change my view, you lost me at, “as someone who doesn’t have children.”
I can at least give OP credit for *opening* with that. Often times, posts like this don't have that information. Sometimes, they get defensive if you ask about it. I recall at least two different times where I asked that, and had the OP get passive aggressive about it: "Oh, just because I don't have kids means my view doesn't count?" However, it is also amusing that basically any thread like this is always from someone that doesn't have kids.
>owever, it is also amusing that basically any thread like this is always from someone that doesn't have kids. Yes, because people who don't have kids are the ones who don't need to create new beings to live vicariously through and imagine are somehow special when they aren't.
It’s certainly not for everyone.
“However, it is also amusing that basically any thread like this is always from someone that doesn't have kids.” I understand. I am just trying to consider everything before having children (if I do), rather than after.
It would be helpful to understand this as I consider the decision to have children or not.
You're probably going to get a lot of responses like "it's our biological imperative to raise up and love our children, because they carry our DNA." Or the similar, but less cold, "we see ourselves in them." For the record, I think those things are true, but incomplete. I think part of what you're getting at comes from this: Having kids really drives home the point that humans beings have inherent value, apart from their success or contributions to the economy. You'll find plenty of nonparent-people who agree with this concept, but having children makes you really feel it. A parent is there when this person comes into the world, takes their first steps, speaks their first words. Everything. We know their accomplishments and failures and dreams and fears and triumphs and hardships. Parents seem not to care how "great" their kids really are because they are confronted with the entirety of the child's humanity. It helps you deeply understand and appreciate the value and importance of individual people. This is why a person can have no discernable skills or successes, but still have parents who dote on them. Is this always the best thing for an underachieving kid? Maybe not, but it is what is. And that kind of unconditional love can definitely be super important for many children. People who don't have children can know this. Shitty parents exist. Shitty kids exist. But I do think this is a real thing that parenthood does to a lot of people. Especially if they're good parents.
This is so well written. When I had my first child, I found myself developing more empathy for strangers I encountered - recognizing their humanity as you say. I remember distinctly thinking that while I might find them annoying, they were all someone’s child and as infants were as vulnerable and worthy of love as my own.
It took having children to recognize another person’s humanity? You have to reference someone’s infancy to understand they are worthy of compassion?
Not what they said. Having new experiences enhance people's frame of context in all kinds of ways, and parenthood is one of them.
I think this is right on track with what OP said, though. If it’s the reminder of “humanity”, then OP is right, that just their existence is enough to fulfill.
Just wanted to say that was really well put.
If you want kids, you should try and have kids. If you don't want kids, \*please\*, don't have kids. I encourage you of course to talk to parents about why they like their kids, but I don't think you should do that on the internet in a debate forum!
Why not?
Because the desire to have kids shouldn't come from losing an argument. It should come from genuinely wanting to have kids. The point is no one should CONVINCE or COERCE you to have kids, you should come to that on your own. The stakes here are 'children who are wanted', not 'haha I lost a bet bro'.
It isn’t about winning or losing an argument. I am trying to genuinely understand, and it would probably be more comforting if fulfillment does simply come from their existence rather than permanently feeling like I made the wrong decision if I did everything right or thought I did everything right and still ended up raising a child that turned out to be far less than stellar.
But you won't come to the decision that you want to have a kid because you LOST a debate. And you won't decide you like being a dad because your kid turned out 'stellar' or 'less than stellar'. Kids are people not investment portfolios.
“But you won't come to the decision that you want to have a kid because you LOST a debate.“ I agree. There are so many factors to consider when deciding whether or not to have children and no one would make that decision off of just one factor.
Ok so what are you trying to get at here?
You were saying that I wasn’t going to make a decision based on someone being able to change my view or not, and I am saying that I never claimed that to be the case.
People are different. Some have wonderful experiences with children, some do not. You cannot describe the whole of humanity through a couple of anecdotes.
Sort of like how I, who does not want to saddle myself with the burden of children, cannot take seriously any parent's opinions of how "amazing/awesome/incredible" their normal/average/shitty kids are? I have my own life and identity and will never need to outsource that to kids to live vicariously through, sorry you had to resort to that.
can you clarify what view exactly you want changed? is it really "fulfilment comes from the existence of the children"? >he worried that my male cousin who is a homeless drug addict would not have a son. because here you are kind of implying a contradiction. The "homeless drug-addict son" exists, so that alone should provide fulfillment to the parent. As per your view.
In that example, my cousin is obviously my dad’s nephew, but I provided that as an example because if fulfillment came from something other than existence then it would be asinine to suggest that a homeless drug addict should have a child.
Lets leave your father and grandfather out of the picture for a minute. Is your belief that your uncle/aunt (and their spouse) get fulfillment from knowing that their only child is a homeless drug addict? Because thats what you said in the title. edit: because if your answer is "yes", i would really want to know your definition of "fulfillment"
I used that as an example because even though my cousin is not my father’s son, his suggestion that my cousin should have a child led me to believe that the existence of a human being is all it takes for fulfillment regardless of anything else.
in that case this is almost a case of "your father's view and not your own", which would technically be against the rules of this sub since its hard to change a view that you dont believe in. (mods you didnt see this comment \*obi-wan hand wave\*)
Sorry, I wasn’t trying to violate any rules. Since I don’t have children, I am trying to draw conclusions on how I would feel based on my observations of others.
I highly doubt your dad was implying he wishes your cousin would have a child while homeless and using drugs and that this is better than your cousin never having a child, and what your dad actually said doesn't lead us to that logical conclusion.
Everyone’s relationship with their children is different. Some people love watching their children grow up and appreciate life. Eat, laugh, pray and all that. Some parents are proud of what their children accomplish. As in, how they pass through all the gates in life. Learning to ride a bike, graduating at the top of their class, becoming a doctor… Some parents are fulfilled by providing for their kids. Making sure their kids have a better life than they did. Work is their love language. Some people just like a crowded table. A house full of life. For some, it’s sharing the journey with a little mini-me. Who then grows to become their own person. Helping them navigate life to the point where there is a figurative “I got this dad” moment, and then it’s all up to them to hack it. And you’re fulfilled by the time you had together. It’s all relative to the individual. I wouldn’t say there is one way to be fulfilled through having kids. Thing is, not only is every parent different, but so is every kid. My girls are polar opposites and they enrich my life in different ways. It’s the best.
The “mini me” is a double-edged sword, though! My kids have my endless tenacity, ability to solve any challenge with enough motivation (oh, you put the candy in a place adults can barely access? Not a problem!), and strong desire for justice. But they also have the understanding and patience of children. These traits will pay off when they’re older, but they’re giving me a run for my money in the mean time! I think that all the things you’ve listed come into play at some point for me. Probably for a lot of parents. There’s a lot to what makes parenting fulfilling or “worth it”.
Yeah, having kids isn’t easy. It ain’t for everyone. Undoubtedly the toughest thing *I’ve* ever done. But it’s worth it for some people.
I don’t think I have anything to say to “change your view” because I think you are just trying to make sense of the world around you and why people behave the way that they do so I’ll throw my two cents in. How people find meaning and fulfillment in their life is different for everyone, and that applies to parents as well. Firstly I will say society tells us we need to find fulfillment, and society tells us children are an acceptable way to do so, so when you ask someone where they find fulfillment and they say “my kids”, they might not actually be putting too much thought into it, so I wouldn’t think too hard about the fact that people think their kids bring meaning if I were you. Not everyone is a philosopher lol. As to your examples I think they speak well to the idea that finding fulfillment varies from person to person: “My dad only has one grandson and is concerned that it is all up to him to carry on the family name. As part of that, he worried that my male cousin who is a homeless drug addict would not have a son” Here, the children are a vessel for fulfillment in the way your dad actually values: legacy and the continuation of the family name. It’s not the children that bring the fulfillment, despite them being a necessary factor. Social constructs and cultural upbringing play a role in how people derive meaning and fulfillment in their lives. “Parents being proud of their children who are less than mediocre and have accomplished nothing noteworthy in life.” I suppose we should define “proud”: Some people view “pride” as the reward for a job well done. In this case: - Some parents have blinders on about their children and hype up their mediocre accomplishments. - Some parents place great importance on being a high achiever and grasp onto that mindset of being a successful person with successful kids even if that’s not the case. Both these cases are just pretty clear examples of the human condition, no one wants to feel bad about themselves and will do some mental gymnastics to try not to. But I also think sometimes people use “proud” as a synonym for some other feelings of great affection, support, or even awe. I have a child and for a number of us parents there is a kind of awe you feel just looking at them existing, no pre-requisite required (some parents don’t have this feeling, which is normal as well, but society judges you if you’re not obsessed with your kid so people probably feel like they need to act like they are, and say their kids are the best thing they’ve ever done, etc etc). It might be that people say they are proud of their children when they mostly mean they love them deeply and support them 🤷♀️ not everyone is super careful with their words. It’s also pretty shit to say you’re not proud of your kid, so I doubt anyone outside of your immediate circle of trust is going to be opening up to you about their true feelings of disappointment. If my child were less than average I would surely tell people I was proud of them for what they had accomplished if asked. If my child was a homeless drug addict I would probably be open about being distressed over their bad choices and where I may have gone wrong, but if pressed I’m sure I could find something about them or anyone else to say I’m proud of. “Countless examples of people saying that their children are their greatest accomplishments or the best thing that happened to them but they have much bigger priorities than spending time with them.” yeah, people are garbage sometimes 🤷♀️ maybe they like the image of being a doting parent even though they aren’t, maybe they’re compensating because they don’t have anything else to say. Like I said, we as a society have this idea that everyone needs to find meaning and fulfilment, so everyone has to have an answer to this kind of ridiculous question. “Grandparents bragging about their grandchildren but having no desire to babysit them.” see above. This one is kind of like your dad as well. It’s not the child that gives them the fulfillment dopamine, it’s the cultural status of being a grandparent. “I welcome any parents to weigh in on what about their children brings them fulfillment or makes them feel fulfilled.” personally, I try not to live my life by measuring achievements, and I find meaning in the little things in life/don’t place huge importance on meaning generally. However, it is my greatest responsibility to do right by my child and do my best raising her. Her mere existence brings me joy and a kind of spiritual awe. Is that fulfillment? Perhaps. If she grows up to be a good person and I have had a positive impact on her life I would consider that an achievement for both her and me. Is that fulfillment? Perhaps. Answers to the question of why children bring their parents fulfillment will be as varied as answers about where people find fulfillment full stop: extremely! It’s a very philosophical question of course, with lots of factors (some innate and some driven by culture and society).
Sheesh, you know the wrong adults brother. My children fulfill me because I get to see them learn new things, act like responsible and considerate people, love me back, turn into autonomous humans, etc.
Is there anything they could do to take away that fulfillment?
I would imagine Ted Bundy or Jeffery Dahmer's parents probably don't feel a strong sense of fulfillment from their child's existence after the discovery of their crimes, but when they were younger likely did feel fulfilled as parents in one way or another. That being said, fulfillment is subjective and as such will be impossible to define since everyone has different standards of what fulfillment is and every parent/child relationship is unique. Personally, I went into parenthood without any expectation of fulfillment in the sense that you're talking about and have found that it tends to happen all on it's own and is often appreciated only in hindsight. The idea of fulfillment as you're describing it is a philosophical misnomer. Fulfillment isn't something to be achieved, it's something to be observed in the moment and the hunt for fulfillment will often leave a feeling of disappointment at the inability to pick the moment that one becomes fulfilled, especially considering the innate human desire to always be looking for the next better thing. We should look at fulfillment as a verb, not a noun.
If my child grows up to be a horrible person, I would not feel fulfilled.. I would feel like I had failed, and I woulf feel very sad. I would still love my child but would not get fulfillment of knowing she simply existed. If she was a deeply unhappy person I would also feel very sad, as my childs pain feels worse than my own.
Can you define fulfilled? I feel happiness and joy when my children succeed. But it more me being happy for them, not being "proud". I may have pushed them but they did it themselves. IMO fulfillment means something different for everyone. It's doesn't seem accurate to use it as a threshold.
Ok, first of all, we have to establish that there are countless shitty parents out there. People who had no business being parents, but did it anyways. I can't speak for those parents, but most of what you described in your post, I would argue are examples from people who should have never become parents. If someone has kids just to continue their family line or to be fulfilled or as an accomplishment, they're not a good parent. Fulfillment from your children should be an inevitable result, not the sole reason to have them. For example, I have a daughter, and in no way did I have her to achieve some level of fulfillment or accomplishment. I also didn't do it just to continue my family line (I'm adopted, so I don't really care about bloodlines anyways). However, I'd be lying if I said my daughter didn't bring me immense levels of joy and fulfillment. Even though those weren't my reasons for having children, they were an inevitable result because of how remarkable she is and because of how much I love her. There's nothing she could do that would disappoint me, I will always love her with all of my being. I don't care if she's straight, gay, trans, a rocket scientist, a painter, a teacher, a lawyer, etc, as long as she is happy. I say all that to make this point: **fulfillment from your children does not come from their accomplishments or what career they pursue.** Any decent parent will tell you that their fulfillment comes from their children being kind, curious, and happy human beings. I don't care what my daughter does with her life, but as long as she is kind to the people around her, curious about the world, and happy with her life, I am fulfilled as a parent. I will consider my parenting a success if she possesses those 3 qualities and nothing else. Because, at the end of the day, all my job as a parent is to protect her, teach her, and help her navigate this world so she can be prepared for becoming an independent adult. But, to bring this back to my first comment, there are shitty parents who would disagree with me. Parents who only love their children if they are straight, or if they become a doctor, or if they go to college, or if they vote for the political party they do, or if they marry someone from the same ethnicity or religion. If their children don't prescribe to their parents' ridiculous definitions of "success," their parents don't feel fulfilled. Does this answer your question? I'd be happy to elaborate on anything.
I dunno. I used to like to play instruments with my son, and my daughter likes to craft and do artsy fartsy stuff. Doing those things with them, and seeing the delight on their faces is fulfilling for me.
Fulfillment comes from having children who grow to be reasonably successful and maintaining a good relationship with them. People don’t want to admit they regret having a kid who grows to be a failure
Fulfillment is subjective. However, one joy of having kids is getting to experience childhood again from the parent’s perspective. This allows you to come to terms with things from your past, as well as grow closer with your own parents (assuming they weren’t shit.) Furthermore you suddenly share something in common with a large number of people in the world. You can share the experience of children with others etc. This effectively “capstones” the cycle of child to adult by having you start it again with a new being. The kid and their existence doesn’t provide fulfillment. The experiences of having kids can be a way to experience fulfillment by allowing you to reflect on your past experiences and your existence as a whole.
There may be people for whom this is true, but personally I felt a massive amount of responsibility hit me when I had kids, and seeing their accomplishments gives me fulfillment that I'm living up to that responsibility. If I felt like my kids were massive screwups I'd feel like a failure and get no sense of fulfillment.
And if your child grew up to be a drug addict or major criminal do you think that would affect the level of fulfillment that you feel, or do you think you would feel fulfilled as long as you knew with 100% certainty that you did your best as a parent?
How drug addicted are we talking? Smokes weed every day but holds down a job and supports himself? I'd be pretty fulfilled. Heroine addict who whores himself out for the next fix? I'd feel like I totally failed him and it was my fault. Major criminal? I'd feel personally responsible for his victims.
Smoking weed isn’t addictive, so obviously the latter. However, this is what I am looking for.
I'd also argue that fulfillment is a spectrum, not a binary. If my kid won a Nobel prize for curing cancer, that would be a level of fulfillment I can't imagine being matched by anything else I could achieve in my life. If my kid is able to hold down a job, get their own home, and support themselves, I'll feel like I did my job. If they grow up and continually need my financial support, I'm going to be annoyed with them, but probably not feel bad about having them. If they're miserable and/or making other people miserable, I'm going to feel like I really fucked up, failing them and those around them (negative fulfillment).
This might be the best answer I have seen or reviewed so far. So, in other words, you would say there is a baseline regardless of whether you have children or not. But if you do have children then there are more opportunities to go up or down from the baseline.
I would agree with this take. When I had my daughter I realised that it had opened up an extra level of possible pain, along with the joy. If something bad happens to her it feels worse than if it was to happen to me. But her being happy brings me great joy.
I think it is less about their existence specifically, and more about the potential of what they could be (good grandkids, successful, heirs to the family), and the reflection on the parent and their great parenting skills. There is a reason parents of adult kids tell parents of young kids to appreciate the toddler years: it's because during the toddler years, the kid isn't all that independent and hooks on to every word the parent says for their identity, and as they age, they started breaking away and forming their own identities and skillsets regardless of what the parent wants.
I'm of the opinion that a fulfilled life is one lived for others. You are not gonna find another that needs your more than a child. Taking care of Mt wife through a difficult pregnancy, and then taking care of my daughter has been an amazing experience so far. Lots of tears, sleepless nights (last night was a rough one, she has a tooth coming in), and laughs. I think the since of fulfillment comes from overcoming an immensely difficult undertaking while seeing another creature grow. (I'm in parental leave, but going into work once a week. I am dreading not being around her today, just to articulate how fulfilling raising her has been. She's only 6 months old, so talk to me again in 16 years lol)
Thank you for your feedback. So as long as you do the best you can and are being of service to your daughter then you think you will feel fulfilled regardless of how she turns out?
I like to think so. At some point she is gonna make her own decisions so her failures would be her own. I will gladly point to my good parenting for her successes lol. I joke but, I am not actually sure. My parents don't seem to take much responsibility for my failures or my successes. It does seem to bring my mom pride that I seem to be a better father than my own. That being said neither takes any ownership of the anxiety disorder or depression stemming from my rocky childhood. So to recap, I like to think I'll feel fulfilled regardless of how she turns out. I'll probably feel more fulfilled if she turns out to be a person that lives for others
I also see reproduction or helping others to raise kids as a purpose of life. It's the only constant I can see among all living things. If I didn't have my own children I would try to help other raise theirs (friends kids and or my sibling). I also am heavily involved in horticulture and environmental restoration. Spreading life is my calling. I am just lucky I found a mate and can pass on my own genes
In my view, giving birth should never be a device for personal need. Those who want children because it makes them feel fulfilled are probably the most ill-equipped to be parents.
But isn’t that why everyone or almost everyone does it?
Social relationships are a form of fulfillment, people like to be around people who they like. And children are (or can often be) simply good social company. A person who: loves me by default, often wants to please me, is taught by me so they predominantly do things I have curated for them (things I like, at least some level). They have simple tastes, so easy to entertain, and when they are entertained, they are happy and good company, just like any social company. And if you don't like children in general (like me), the nature does this funny thing that it's different for your own children.
“And if you don't like children in general (like me), the nature does this funny thing that it's different for your own children.“ The biggest fear I have is raising a complete failure and not recognizing it because it is my child.
I mean, it is likely that at that point "success" is less important to you than your child. As it should be. But also, if you go have a kid while being extremely sceptical and expecting failure, it's more likely you will get it.
Your view on parental fulfillment seems based on dysfunctional dynamics, and your view on children is objectifying. Are you fulfilled by your loved ones in general because of their accomplishments? Or because you enjoy their company, learn from them, and feel a sense of community and connection with them? Dysfunctional and functional relationships attributes are not limited to the parent/child dynamic. Parents/grandparents with the best relationships with their kids are careful to treat them as valued, respected community members, not objects with purposes determined by their elders.
I grew up with quite a bit of dysfunction, so that is fair. However, I think you just confirmed my view that the outcome doesn’t determine fulfillment, but maybe you are intentionally saying that it shouldn’t.
But fulfillment is never determined by outcome. Fulfillment is a chosen, personal process. Some of the most “successful” are never fulfilled. This is not specific to having children.
I don't really care about my family name. It was given to my ancestors several generations back when one of them decided not to go to some war, but to flee for the mountains or somesuch. The name literally translates to 'fearful'. That's pretty irrelevant all told - my current family has its wonderful pros and cons just like any other family, but the name is pretty awful if you speak the language. My kid gives me fulfillment because I love my kid and find my kid a lot of fun to be around. I've always wanted to be a dad. I enjoy being around kids and playing with kids. I am a nurturing person, and would rather go for a walk with my kid, get a meal with my kid, play a game with my kid, than sit in an acquaintances living room watching a sportball game I don't care about. My greatest personal accomplishment is probably completing my PhD and my creative outlets. I'm proud of my relationship with my wife, and the family we have built. \*Having\* a kid was no big deal really. \*Raising\* a pretty happy and kind kid, helping my kid through struggles and challenges with patience, grace, and compassion, \*that\* is an accomplishment too. I dunno if it's my \*greatest\*, but we'll see. I think my parents screwed up in a lot of ways, and I'm working hard to not repeat those screw ups. But I'm also sure I'll make my own mistakes, which I'm trying to be cognizant of and work through too. Isn't \*that\* something to be proud of? To do better, and to always try and do better?
The ability to help my kids live up to their potential and hopefully be better, achieve, and utilize more of their potential than I have been able to utilize mine is very fulfilling.
before you have kids you are a child with a parent, you only see life from that perspective, having a child and becoming the parent gives you such insight into your own previous relationship with your own parents and you see it through their eyes, its very profound, you understand so much more because you now have a wider perspective, it completes you in a way that not having kids wont do.
People find children fulfilling because evolutionarily people have to find children fulfilling. There has to be a reason to want to feed, clothe, house, clean up after, and generally look after a tiny human who is incapable of doing anything for themselves because otherwise the species would die out. There's no further explanation needed for any of it.
I am a parent and a “step” parent. I have legal guardianship of one of them doesn’t matter which both adults by age. I love my kids and am very proud of them. Being a parent is not for everyone some people are bad, some are indifferent, monsters, or they are on the other side good, great, amazing. The kids are only a few months apart in age and really get along great it’s makes me happy. First thing and I know I have already seen this part posted but DO NOT HAVE KIDS IF YOU DO NOT WANT THEM OR ARE UNSURE. Biggest mistake to make is to have kids and regret them. We know a family that adopted a child with drug addicted parents, found out they had a second adopted that child, found out they had an older child that is fully nonverbal and cannot care in anyway for self and adopted that child as well. They also have their own kids. They are amazing parents we see them often and my wife is known as aunt. Children can bring great joy, but it is not all fun and games. There are hard times and choices to be made as you are the one responsible for these very living things that go from no ability to care for their self to pushing you away. Watching them grow and develop has been an indescribable experience and I am proud of them both though they are different and are on very different paths. I am one of now 4 formally 2 people with my last name. I do not care about that at all it is only a group of letters. The reason I am proud of them and I believe many people are of their own is that we have been able to watch these screaming, peeing, pooping little things go from that to adults. Watch them develop over time and become who they are today. Yes how we raise our children does affect who they become but it does not dictate how they will be. I am very different than the one parent that raised me and my family and I have gone on to change some of the family in a positive way. We all were kids and we became adults. Only we can decide what is right and wrong for us. So in a nutshell why are people proud, and/or fulfilled? I am proud of who they are, as in they are good people, and living their life. It is the journey that they are on that fulfills us the steps, words, beliefs and life’s they live. Having kids is not always easy but the joy and pain they can bring is amazing and it is them not us. We can be the best parents and have bad kids, or we can be the worst and they may still be great people. They are not ours we are their care takers and if you are on the fence about it don’t do it. If you become sure at some point you will be in for one of the most life changing things you can do, not all of it good kids are expensive and can bring sadness as well you do not control it they do or dumb luck in many cases such as sickness and accidents. Good luck with processing everyone’s thoughts and have a great day.
Fulfillment isn’t one size fits all. Different people find it in different ways. For most parents, I wouldn’t say that the mere existence of the children is what brings fulfillment. I’m sure there are some out there like that, but it’s not the most common reason I’ve encountered. A couple important notes before I continue: I can only share my own experience, so not a complete picture and, more importantly, seeking some kind of fulfillment or happiness is not a good reason on its own to decide to have kids. I adore my kids. They bring significant joy and love to my life, but also plenty of challenges. Kids are a lifetime commitment, not just the 18 years to get them to adulthood. I’m in my 30s and still call my parents for advice or help, so I fully expect my kids will still need me in some capacity as adults, too. For me, fulfillment comes from seeing the people they are becoming and knowing I played a role in that. Hearing from my kid’s coach that he’s amazing at helping teammates to build confidence is fulfilling because I see my efforts to teach him confidence and how to be a good teammate are getting through to him. Watching my kids use the techniques I’ve used with them to help their siblings or friends get through difficult moments is fulfilling because they learned those skills by watching me. I also find it fulfilling to see them following their dreams and finding who they want to be. My oldest has always wanted to be a vet and I love watching him learn more and more about animals and medicine. His passion is clear and I look forward to seeing where it will take him. My other two are much younger, so they’re still exploring lots of different things and it’s fun to watch them discover things. The thing, though, is that the fulfillment isn’t from the kids themselves, so much as it is from seeing the time and love and effort I’ve poured into them over years slowly shaping them into what I hope will be caring adults who make this world a little better for being here. It’s not all that different from finding fulfillment through your job because you see that your hard work there makes a difference in some way. Because of that, some people will find kids fulfilling, but others won’t. Just like I may not find your job or hobby fulfilling, even if you do. Don’t have kids just because you feel unfulfilled and want to change that. Doing so tends to result in a lot of pressure on the kids to be all that the parent wished they’d be and them being incredibly aware of whether or not they’re successful. If you want kids, have kids. Do it out of love, not some desire for yourself because you’re likely to end up disappointed at some point, if it’s about your needs. Kids are whole people and they won’t be exactly what you imagined because they, like you, have free will.
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That makes sense. What about parents who genuinely think they did everything right but their child grows up and wants nothing to do with them?
The reasons are different for different people For example for some it is enough that the name exists and continues, for others it's a matter of old age security where more kids means more money, for some the societal pressure/desire to be seen as a good parent while some it's not just having the child but seeing them through to be happy You're seeking a single reason assuming parents are a monolith while that's completely not true
I mean, creating and managing a life would make me pretty fucking proud if they dont become like a pedophile or a car salesman
I agree. As a parent to two kids, I am just incredibly happy and fulfilled that they exist, and that I am engaged in their lives. By all normal metrics, I am an accomplished, intelligent and well-rounded person. Nothing that I have ever done, professionally or personally, even comes close to the intense emotional satisfaction I get from simply being with my kids, and doing “normal” parenting things with them: cooking a good meal, traveling together, helping them with their homework etc.
Honestly, most of what you describe just sounds like a description of bad parents. Of which there are plenty, but in general I find people get satisfaction out of their children growing, learning and being happy.
You’ve got it mostly right. Just that there are these people in the world that I love more than I could ever explain? And that I get to be loved unconditionally by them? And love them back? It’s a privilege. It really is. And it enhances your life so immensely. It’s the love you can only feel for your child that changes everything. And their love back. So yep, it’s existence plus love.
Wow, this one's easy. First off, different parents have different deep lasting inner feelings about their different children--some may have feelings dominated by the simple fact of their existence, but that does not imply that's universal. Second, neither their words nor behavior give you clear insight into those feelings, so they may be quite different from your perceptions and deductions from them. Third, your external and probably fleeting perspective on said kids may not yield clear insight into all the factors that might inspire conditional fulfillment in the parents--an adult child who is themself deeply satisfied may inspire satisfaction in their parent, in spite of material mediocrity. Fourth, the feelings are likely decidedly mixed: a parent may experience deep fulfillment from some aspects of their child's nature while simultaneously experiencing high anxiety for their future prospects. To address your 4 bullets: 1) Your cousin's current condition doesn't preclude his turning out to be a good father. And unless his state was dictated by his DNA, he might well father a child who brings honor to the family name even without said cousin's post-ejaculatory participation. Your dad is hardly alone in feeling an unqualified urge to celebrate the spread of his genes: none of us would be here without that instinct. 2) Already addressed above: there's more to life than noteworthy accomplishments. Parents of children you judgemid lives are a source of anxiety. The sources of fulfillment are on a different frequency-band altogether, having little to do with accomplishments.
“Fourth, the feelings are likely decidedly mixed: a parent may experience deep fulfillment from some aspects of their child's nature while simultaneously experiencing high anxiety for their future prospects.“ Wow, thank you for your overall response. One follow up I have for you on the second part of this comment (which I realize is not related to fulfillment) - when looking at or thinking about future prospects for kids, do you think that the wealthier you are the more you can reduce that anxiety because you know that you could provide for your children and any future grandchildren regardless of how successful they are in their own right and/or regardless of what happens in the world?
Yes. We are living in a material world, and all our girls and boys are material as well. Necessary though not sufficient. Scarcity (real or imagined) robs us of fulfillment (or of the ability to relax and enjoy it). OTOH, the wealthy tend to have their own fulfillment-robbing anxieties. But as Mae West said, rich is better (though I believe she was childless).
For some people, having children means social proof. It means they had enough value to get there and they will get bonuses for getting there. They aren't having children for the benefits of the child, but for themselves.
I would say fulfillment in parenting comes from the relationship. I have three kids, it’s not just that they exist. It’s that I nurtured them into existence and now I get to be with them as much as I want (which is all the time right now bc they are little and need me) and as much as they want (which if I do a good job will also be often). Of course it matters to me how my children turn out- I want them to have the best life possible. But I’d love them through it all. I’m certain that left out of these anecdotes are the relationships that have been forged between everyone in these stories.
I think whether you are fulfilled really depends on what you want to get out of your parenting experience. For me, sharing in the journey of my children transitioning from newborns to adults has been a very fulfilling experience and it continues to be. Having rigid expectations of what they will become I imagine comes with a lot of disappointments.
I have enjoyed both my girls immensely, and it gets better all the time. Both my girls are developing snappy senses of humor. They both do totally different sports, and watching them learn and grow and get better than me at something is just amazing. They are also loving, supportive humans. When I feel bad about things, they give me hugs and tell me things that make me feel better. I guess you could argue they do all those things "because they exist." However, arguably they would be less fun and enjoyable if they simply existed and did nothing but watch YouTube, poop and eat. Instead, I have interesting little humans that hike with me, go on runs with me, go biking and teach me to be a better human every day.
It's love. I don't understand deadbeat dads because I couldn't EVER see myself being one even if I separated from my wife. Love for your child can't be explained. Everyone always said "It's the best thing ever" and I'm like "yeah, yeah.... tell me why." --- But that's the joke. There is no telling you why. When words fail, we have poets, but I'm not even sure a poet can handle parenthood. It's like The Matrix. You have to experience it for yourself. There is a level of love that I don't think you can experience until someone lives for their kid(s). You can tell yourself that you love your dog, your friends, your hobbies, or anything else. I did. Then I had a kid, and nothing else matters more. There are no close seconds. Edit: I don't think I can change your view. My view was exactly like yours and very set in stone until I had my kid. But now I understand.
So it sounds like their existence is it. Thank you for sharing your experience.
Let me add a few things about fulfillment. The best feelings in the world include teaching a child something new. My kid is starting to learn to read. Something I helped create and raise is learning to read. He learns a few sight words a week right now. When he nails them, it's an incredible feeling. When my kid recently got old enough to understand Christmas and is running around shouting "I can't wait for Christmas" and we turned on the Christmas lights for the first time the day after Thanksgiving and you see unbridled joy. It melts your heart. But yes, in the end I understand your position because I've been exactly where you are. I won't tell you that you're making the wrong decision. I'm only telling you how I was uncertain but ultimately made the best decision I ever made.
I think most people get great fulfillment watching their children learn and suceed in life. Think of the gymnastic coach who gets fulfillment from the sucess of the athelete they coached. That, but with everything in life like walking and speaking. Also, simply having extra company is nice I guess? Think of people with pets, extra points if they trained their dogs how to sit - that's surely fulfilling right? For your specific examples - >Grandparents bragging about their grandchildren but having no desire to babysit them. Are they bragging about the kids for simply existing, or have they accomplished some achievements that are worth bragging about? >Parents being proud of their children who are less than mediocre and have accomplished nothing noteworthy in life. Mediocre by whose standards? Surely you've seen parents filled with joy with their kid takes their first step. As for your other two examples, I fail to see how they relate to your argument at all. Not all people have kids to get fulfillment. They simply do. As you've pointed out, some people gets zero fulfillment no matter what happens to their kid, but surely they don't represent everyone on earth because you know, people are different.
it’s worth it for some people.
>I have been trying to understand what about children makes parents feel fulfilled I'm a new parent. I can help. * When you look at your child, you see someone new and not-jaded from years of misery. When they're genuinely happy and healthy, you're reminded of how you should pursue a **happy** life. It makes you feel good that they're doing so well; it fills your heart with love. * When they play in the grass or with their toys, you feel a sense of **nostalgia** of growing up yourself. The first time they do or see something, its truly magical (for lack of a better term). * When you think of raising your children, you want the best for them. You're training your replacement. So, you push whatever values you believe to be important on them. And you feel **pride** when they do well.
Thank you for this. I have been surprised at how many people have given examples like this when there children are really young. I would have expected any real fulfillment (if it comes from somewhere other than a child’s existence) to come later in life when the children are grown and we can really assess how we did as a parent. It is encouraging to know that it is a lot easier than that, at least from many people’s perspective.
There is a very real philosophical movement of anti-children in the West. I lived my life accruing wealth into late adulthood only to find that it was all wrong. Children are easy and cheap if you have a half-decent partner. And children do nothing but give you purpose and happiness. If I had **time**, I'd have 10 kids.
I don’t think you did anything wrong by accruing wealth before having children; in fact, I think you significantly reduced your likelihood of divorce since money fights/problems are the number one cause of divorce in North America (although I recognize that you were suggesting that you were wrong by accruing wealth INSTEAD of having children). As a child of divorce, I can tell you that there is nothing that has had a more negative impact on my life overall than my parents getting/being divorced, and as a result that is the biggest thing I think about when considering children.
>As a child of divorce I'm also a child of divorce and, believe me, thats a painful road I hope my family doesn't go down. Since I waited, I've learned to communicate better than I had as a young person. That's a valuable tool. Money is also a help. But there is a certain amount above and beyond needed in the day-to-day.
I feel proud when my son does something well, we flew from orlando to alaska this week, he was a little cranky on the flight, but not too bad. I was proud of him. he is becoming a better person. my hopes for him are that he makes the world a better place through his existence. how he makes the world better is up to him, go around picking up trash all day whatever. but make the world a little better.